#cs hate debunked

[ouatsnark]

i'm just gonna leave a link cause i can't recap the whole thing, you can break it down cause i can't submit urls here ( evilduckling / 142855439146 / how-can-you-say-youre-an-ugly-duckiling-and-ship? source=share

I love sources! Here's the link:

I actually started reading this going “Ok, this is fine. I get it. I didn’t start shipping CaptainSwan either until I saw the change beginning in Killian Jones. And they acknowledge Regina is a villain like Hook is.”

However, I ended up going “oh, there it is, there’s the delusion!” And things went downhill from there!

“Because EMMA is my favourite character and i ship her with who ever makes her happiest. Right now that means i am most definitely anti captain swan and pro swan queen.”

But there was never a moment when Regina made Emma happier. In fact, there is not one scene of them being happy together because they are together (friendship wise- this doesn't even exist). Henry, Snow, David and Killian have all made Emma happy. There's more evidence of Emma being happy in her friendship with Elsa than Regina.

Regina was busy treating Emma like complete garbage all of Season 4 and even into Season 5. Which if you want to fanon up a happy SQ friendship … be my guest… but don’t pretend like this isn’t a bias showing through. Because it’s just canonically incorrect.

Killian Jones makes her the happiest.

“Why wouldnt i ship my favourite character with the woman knew Emma’s biggest regret was leaving henry and worked to make sure that regret never happened? Why wouldn’t i ship my favourite character with the woman who gave her the life she always wanted?”

If we’re acknowledging that their friendship has taken a turn at this point (canonically we're told this, I disagree with how it was written but it is canon) and we’re not calling S1-2 abuse signs of true love… OK we can be friends.

I disagree that Regina is doing any of this for Emma but I can acknowledge that this person’s perspective on this scene is legitimate.

I personally believe it was all for Henry and Regina loved self-pity so she got to turn herself into a victim (just look how she makes everything about her, the S3 curse, losing Henry her pain was worse, her struggles are worse even though Emma was literally cursed with darkness, Emma's death visions were about her etc etc). Or maybe it just rubs me the wrong way because she can’t for one second recognize that she’s the reason Snow is separated from her daughter AGAIN and the show just completely destroyed Henry’s character by having him say everyone was better off cursed if it meant Regina wasn’t hurting.

Also, pretty sure everyone, including Killian, knows that giving up Henry is Emma’s biggest regret. This isn’t rocket science or something that’s special to Regina.

“Why wouldn’t i ship my favourite character with the woman who gave her her happy ending?”

Except she didn't actually succeed. Emma was miserable and about to marry a monkey.

“How dare i ship my favourite character with this person. I obviously hate emma swan so much. How dare i ship emma with someone who constantly saves her, believes in her and is literally in hell for her? “

That is canonically not true. Regina doesn’t believe in Emma. Unless it's convenient for her to say so because she wants something. They use the scene where Regina wants Emma to save Robin from the wraith as an example but they leave off the part where Regina accuses Emma of being the cause.

And I would argue Regina isn’t in hell for Emma. Regina disappeared on Emma to save a horse and have a family reunion. She was there because all the real heroes were there. But again, if that’s the way you want to look at it fine.

But let’s not pretend that Killian Jones hasn’t done even more for Emma and it was because he truly loves her. He was the only one to never lose faith in her. And. He wasn’t doing it for hero status or for anyone else but Emma and her family.

This is also kind of a straw man argument on the part of Swen because the real issue is…. why would you ship Emma with a woman that constantly belittles her, puts her down, refuses to follow her lead… etc etc NEVER MIND all of the reasons that Regina is the reason Emma’s family was torn apart… a reason that Regina doesn’t regret.

The above post is specific to how they follow Emma's lead but you can find so much more information in my Regina Vs Killian and how they treat Emma series.

“Instead i should ship her with a man who has tried to kill emma just as many times - the last time being like 4 episodes ago???”

No, you don’t have to. But while you claim “just four episodes ago” there is an issue here because there’s a big detail being left out: Killian was consumed by darkness. Regina never was.

This blog owner refuses to accept this detail but more on that below.

Also, correction: Regina has still tried to kill Emma and her family more times than any other character. Killian, when consumed by darkness, was a conduit for the dark ones so he's actually never tried to kill Emma and her family. That is not something he would ever want. He does too much to help Emma stay with her parents for this to even be a thing so it's obvious this is all the darkness' doing. Regina tried multiple times before Emma was born, as she was being born, before the first curse is broken in S1 (Emma's brakes, framing Snow, the apple, the tart) and after the curse (teaming up with Cora, the well, the kill switch).

"Regina wasn’t responsible for Neal leaving emma in prison - that was August and Neal.”

No one disputes this? No one blames Regina for this. Granted, Regina’s decision to cast the curse put all of these character’s in these situations but the choices they make are their own.

“Regina wasn’t responsible for the mess between Lily and Emma - that was Snow and Charming’”

This is a swing and a miss. This isn’t anyone’s fault but Lily and Emma’s. Emma has her own agency (as much as any character can have). She’s responsible for her choices and her actions. Not really sure why this is a big deal though. This is typical growing up behavior. I've never used this as a weapon against SwanQueen because it just doesn't hold water. IMHO. There's stronger arguments against the friendship than this... like why are we discussing this point right now?

Oh because they need to point fingers away from Regina and onto anyone else just like their queen does. Can't have Regina taking responsibility for her decisions!

"Regina wasn’t responsible for August leaving Emma in the foster home - that was August (and i know he was a child but still)"

I’d argue this one is a little more grey because neither child would be there if not for Regina’s curse or those that conspired to get August into the tree thus preventing Snow from going…. but August is just a child. This is not his fault either. So I don’t think it’s fair. I don’t think this specific thing is Regina’s fault… what is Regina’s fault is the Charming family being torn apart.

“Regina cast a curse but it was Snow and Charming that put emma in the wardrobe - not Regina”

And here it is! The Regina Apologist in this Swen has arisen!

No, luv, it is still Regina’s fault. The Charmings had no choice because Regina didn’t give them a choice. Regina would’ve killed Emma and everyone would’ve been cursed for eternity.

“Remember this? It’s rumple being taunted by your precious Killian. See because of situations like these, where rumple was so powerless against other people - other men like Hook - that he takes  power wherever he can. Enter the dark one”

Sorry, luv, but no one forced Regina to cast the curse. She chose to do it. Her actions caused it. Therefore she is responsible for the curse.

"So let’s summarise - If killian hadnt made rumple feel so powerless, rumple wouldnt have become the dark one, wouldnt have lost his son,.."

We don’t know that for sure. And I disagree. Even if Killian hadn’t come along, Milah was destined to leave her coward of a husband who had shamed his family. Her unhappiness was there long before she met Killian. So I believe all of this still could’ve happened with or without Killian. I mean the reason Rumple took on the darkness was to save his son from the Ogre Wars. Last I checked, Killian didn’t cause those!

And even so Regina still chose to cast the curse. Therefore, she is responsible for her role that she played in it. Now is Rumple also culpable? Sure. He helped her, after all. But who’s out there saying that Rumple is a better choice for Emma? There’s probably like one person. So Rumple sharing in part of the blame is kind of irrelevant to the topic.

"Last person who tried to kill Emma’s family - Killian.  And before you say Gold isnt family - yes he is because quite literally in the next episode emma says “You’re henry’s grandfather. Like it or not that makes us family”

Correction: at the time this blog was written the last person to try and kill Emma’s family was the Dark Ones.

And this person is seriously trying to use a line from S2 to justify this when Gold has betrayed them multiple times since including the end of S5 and S6? Yes, Emma says this as justification for helping him during S2. After all, family means a lot to Emma and I think she was trying to help Gold turn a page.

But let’s not pretend that any of them had any real affection for Gold after his multiple betrayals. Emma was ready to take him down in S5 and S6 when he stood in the way of her true love. So. That argument is so disingenuous. It's a perfect example of reaching so far you make a fool out of yourself.

And technically Gold is the last person to have tried to kill Emma’s family by the end of the series. This blog was written prior to the ending of S5 so I’ll let this slide.

"And Hook being the dark one does count as the only thing that can control a dark one is excalibur/dagger and Hook was not being controlled by anyone. This was most definetely hook being an ass and nothing else."

And here comes the Regina Apologist again trying to deny the dark curse. It was not “Hook being an ass and nothing else” like please do not pretend like we didn’t see a complete change in him when the darkness took over! Because we did.

Also, Season 5 tells us repeatedly that those cursed with the darkness become someone else entirely. I've already covered this here:

And this one goes even further into how the darkness controlled even Emma for a hot second:

So the fact that they refuse to accept or acknowledge canon is why we can’t be friends. Because they use their fanon and complete disregard for canon as a weapon against us.

If they had just stuck to saying "yeah I ship Emma and Regina post S3 because Regina is on Team Hero now" and said nothing else... we wouldn't be here right now.

" - is the reason for emma’s darkness" (aka her saving Killian)

Not by any fault of his own. He begged her not to!

It was Regina Mills that begged Emma to risk becoming a full on dark one to save her handbag!

See, I don't know how you can ship SwanQueen when Regina is clearly willing to sacrifice Emma for her handbag and Emma is clearly fighting for her true love Killian Jones... and it's Killian Jones putting Emma first while Regina is still thinking of only herself.

"Pretty sure Regina’s been the one fighting for Emma’s light harder than anyone"

Incorrect! Evidence is in how they each treated Dark Swan and how they treated the Dagger.

It was Killian that faced the Wicked Witch to get to Emma. It was Killian that believed in her enough not to control her with the dagger. It was Killian that helped Emma light the flame. It was Killian that ultimately fought the darkness and restored Emma’s light.

"is awful to emma’s son?"

Killian: "Riveting tale, Snow likes oatmeal. Is my morning breakfast in there too? Henry I thought you were gonna use your author powers to get us to defeat Hades."

And there we have it. Ignoring S1-2 and picking ONE LINE out to try and say Killian was awful to Henry. Oh you would not win this argument with me, luv. You would lose and lose horribly.

Regina Mills abused Henry for the first ten years of his life and was not that great of a mother in later seasons either. That alone trumps one frustrated line from Killian Jones who was worried for everyone's safety when they'd all come there to help save him.

And even with the first ten years of abuse, we have these present day moments where Regina was just awful to Henry:

[carmensandiegoconfessions]

Im one of the ones who sent asks criticizing julethief. Idk if u were referring to the chasexcarm shipper who was being rlly homophobic and rude or something else but - You posted my ask so id like to think you didnt find it toxic or anything, because that is NOT my goal. Either way id like to clear things up.

To begin, I totally respect julethief as a ship. Most julethief shippers are cool! And i really do see why a lot of yall like it. I really do.

But, having been in this fandom sinxe its start - i can tell you some (operative word is SOME) julethief shippers ARE toxic! From constantly commenting rude things on redcrackle art and posts to having cycles of throwing hate when CS official accounts even dare to acknowledge redcraxkle (like twitter in 2021), the toxicity is there and real.

Idk what those who ship other things face but thats why some people are venting about julethief on this account - there is some built up resentment from experiencing all of that over the years. Also a lot of common arguments used against redcrackle that can be debunked vs. similar things that could be criticized about julethief but rarely are - it leaves people feeling a bit resentful or at least in need of wanting to make their point.

Obviously tho, homophobia is NEVER ok and those people should be shamed and called out. Our fandom is all about diversity snd differences of all types. Theres no room for those sorts of attitudes.

-🦇

[channelmono]

An incomplete list of helpful things mainstream BLM discussion is putting to the forefront

and why we should KEEP it mainstream until change finally comes!

(I promise not to get traumatic with the material)

The countless other cases beyond George Floyd of previously-unrecognized fallen black friends whose police murderers have yet to be accounted for.

The negative consequences of “All Lives Matter” and similar derivatives. 

The negative consequences of silence, complicity, obstruction, and performative activism with no calls to action.

The widespread desire for not just the inoffensive and ineffective incremental reform, but the absolute abolishment of police/justice systems as they stand.

Every single time the police make a “wholesome” or “in-solidarity” gesture to go viral, they immediately lie and open fire on protestors unprovoked once the cameras turn off.

Every single time the govt/police outright lie in easily disprovable ways, from the NYPD claiming a Rolex store was looted by protestors to Trump denying any use of tear/CS gas.

The countless times the police have attacked and seized peaceful protestors completely unprovoked, with increasing ferocity, fraudulence, illegality -- and most importantly -- scorn and contempt from the public.

The countless times protestors and observers have remained peaceful, constitutional, and caring of their fellow man as TV news characterized them as riots while hyperfocusing on looters.

Methods to keep protestors safe, from the rights to protect themselves, to the communal knowledge of “don’t show protestor faces on social media”, to the weapons the police are using and how to deal with them before they’re deployed. (this is really important imo!!!!)

The countless instances of protestors still caring more about public health during the COVID-19 pandemic while beaches, casinos, and other high-traffic areas are so impatient to restimulate the economy that nobody there even wears face masks.

The widespread reputation of “All cops are bastards”, in part due to the increased knowledge of the “good cops” who challenge systemic racism and brutality end up fired, abused, and/or killed by their former kin.

Debunking of widespread misconceptions and misinformation, from the campaign to raise Derek Chauvin’s charges (we can’t prove it was premeditated, let alone in court procedure) and the DC Blackout (sourced to a troll account with 3 followers), to safety concerns like fake “protests” (baits for lynching) and various ineffective safety measures against police during protests.

Ways to game and overwhelm social media systems into shutting down the spread and visibility of hate movements (thanks, Kpop stans! Stan Loona!)

The practically-nonexistent and lackadaisical regulations police are held to, from pathetically tiny training periods to their ability to stay on the force despite multiple severe transgressions they are presently NOT obligated to tell the public.

The absurdly disproportionate allocation of major city funds towards the police for a perception of crime only caused by a lack of funds towards constructive services like jobs, physical and mental healthcare, education, livable wages, food security, etc.

The amount of oppressive bills govts are trying to sneakily pass while everyone’s “distracted” to hope nobody notices.

The countless small businesses (especially black-owned) neglected by the govt and left unable to participate without outsider funding in the oh-so-precious economy it scrambled to revitalize.

Resources and charitable movements to help those within the black community in need.

The power of community bail funds and their ability to power many illegitimately-arrested through legal processes with highly-maximized and recyclable charity cash.

The endless list of incredibly talented black individuals with bright potential careers in the arts, sciences, humanities, etc. but were lost solely due to racial discrimination, and yet continue to fight for their right to work anyway.

Increased movement towards building allies through empathy with understanding of mental health over callous and antagonistic threats of ostracism.

Increased prevalence of introducing anti-racism to children and respecting their ability to think.

The knowledge that just because George Floyd’s killers were charged, that doesn’t mean black lives are completely saved, and that they should ALWAYS matter, not just today or tomorrow. There’s still so much work to be done. 

The countless news showing how much the protests are working, and how much progress we are making as a movement and as a people. At our current pace, as long as our demands remain loud and visible, we should be expecting change soon.

Thank you for bringing these to the light, everyone! If we keep talking, we can keep up with, if not outpace whatever the opposition throws at us!

The more we stay informed, the more we can endure, and the more the police/govts will continue making themselves look like failures that will have no choice but to change for the better.

Your voice matters! Keep the discussion mainstream, my lovely friends!

[pr-ay-the-gay-away]

I havr some questions and it would be cool if you could answer them.. I've just learned about our old insiders and I am trying to understand some things. 1) EL was here before Thug? 2) How did we knew they were insiders? Did they told us? 3) Did they came because a specific thing happened back in time with camren or they just poped out? 4) For how long have they been here? - I uh thanks in advance... I hope they ain't too much,have a nide day/night👍🏽

“1) EL was here before Thug?”

EL was around at the height of Laucy, before Camila went solo. So like 2016. Thug was around last year.

“2) How did we knew they were insiders?”

EL gave some heads up for certain events to look out for, which then came true, thus solidifying fandom’s trust in them as an insider.

Thug was never proven. People generally fall into 3 camps with Thug: 1) trust Thug, 2) don’t trust Thug, 3) hate Thug because of some of the things they posted.

Me personally, I fall into camp #1.

The thing about EL is that they only ever preached positivity. This is a very important point. Even before fandom uncovered definitive proof that the OT4 v Camila fake feud narrative was a total management fabrication, EL was already preaching love for all of the girls and reaffirming that they were all sisters.

General rule: if someone claiming to be an “insider” or claiming to have some real inside tea, eg. a lot of “exposing” accounts, believes in or reinforces the feud narrative, you can rest assured they are full of complete and utter bullshit.

The only group who has anything to gain from pushing the feud narrative are management - because all of their narratives, up until this day, have been built on top of that flimsy-ass lie.

“3) Did they came because a specific thing happened back in time with camren or they just poped out?”

EL stands for Exposing Laucy. Hence being around at the height of Laucy. At that time many CS were losing their absolute shit over Laucy - because let’s face it, that particular PR was the closest thing to a realistic and believable relationship either of the girls have ever been in. CS weren’t just losing their shit, they were also being absolute shits to Lucy. It was a combination of confirming that Laucy was indeed PR, and imploring fandom to settle the fuck down and to keep supporting Camren but to stop being horrible toxic little shits on IG and Twitter.

Thug was particularly active around CC1 era.

“4) For how long have they been here?”

EL hasn’t posted anything since early CC1 era. Thug deactivated late last year.

On that note...

To be honest, as much as we all love insider tea (it’s novel and fun) Camren doesn’t really need it in order to thrive. I mean, hey, if an insider wants to feed us stuff, we won’t refuse it, but the point is that we don’t actually have to rely on it anymore.

I think insider tea was probably the most needed and the most impactful in 2016 when Laucy was peaking and the fake feud narrative was rampant. The girls were depressed, Camila was a mess, fandom was the most toxic it has probably ever been, and I think EL had a really positive impact on a segment of fandom. EL only ever preached positivity and love for all of the girls, as well as Lucy who was helping out with PR - the only negativity they expressed was their contempt for management and the industry. EL’s influence really continues, at least with Tumblr CS (definitely not IG and Twitter CS lols they are some kind of special)

Since 2016, we’ve acquired enough evidence to prove how management has been constructing narratives to manipulate fandom as well as the girls.

Since then we’ve racked up 2-3 years worth of contradictory narratives and PR spin. 

For the section of fandom that pays attention, we know to not take promotional material and PR at face value.

CS are at a place of awareness and media literacy that we’re debunking bullshit narratives left and right.

[atomicheavybike]

sunny-sharma-1997 replied to your post: I can’t believe the happy day has come when I get…

Shut up

Hey, @sunny-sharma-1997 I think it’s time you and I had a chat, because this is the fifth or sixth time you’ve hijacked one of my properly tagged anti-cs posts. And normally I’d just ignore or brush off that kind of behaviour - which is happening with depressing regularity at the moment - but the interesting thing about you is that you always hijack via reply. I strongly suspect that you do it so your followers don’t realize you make a habit of hijacking posts, and I also suspect it’s because on some level you know that what you’re doing is wrong.

And listen, I understand that CS means a great deal to you, and that you find it distressing when other people criticize it. And it must be particularly upsetting at the moment, with its on-screen end due - and I’m sorry, genuinely, that something that used to give you pleasure will no longer be in your life.

But there’s a couple of pieces of advice I’d like to give you, if I may. Firstly, if you find it so upsetting or enraging that some people hate the thing you love, don’t go actively looking for what they have to say. And I know that’s what you must be doing, because you could only be finding my posts in the anti-cs tag.

Secondly, and more importantly, you need to learn to be at peace with the fact that not everyone shares your likes and dislikes. Maybe I’m wrong, but I suspect you’re quite young. And when you’re young, and in spaces like tumblr, you can get away with an inability to accept disagreement. But out there in the wider world? You’ll be making your life a lot harder if you can’t learn to agree to disagree.

The fact that I despise CS shouldn’t make you love it any less. I’m not *trying* to make you like it less. That’s why I always carefully anti-tag, so people who feel as you do can avoid seeing opinions that might distress them. But if the very existence of those opinions is so unbearable to you that you need to seek them out to ‘debunk’ them, then you’ve got a problem. Because those opinions will always exist. So if I were you, I’d do some work on learning to live with that fact.

[exposing-5h]

I ship Camren but very low-key. And you can't give people hate for just shipping it. But you can give them shit for rubbing it in Ls or Cs face. Honestly, if your a low-key, fanfiction and old pictures of L and C shipper, keep going right on just keep it the fuck out of Ls and/or Cs face, it's annoying, even as a CS shipper myself I'm disgusted at what some CS shippers have said to both sides of Camren. It's ridiculous sometimes

It's fine if you're lowkey but if you're spamming the girls with it daily and debunking their current relationships because of it, there needs to be a line that is drawn. You can do whatever makes you happy, but in my personal opinion even continuing to ship it is disrespectful to both parties since they clearly aren't even buddies anymore. Obnoxious Larry shippers barely exist now so hopefully the same will happen with those repulsive Camren shippers. - N

[ouatsnark]

DEBUNKING Lies about CaptainSwan's True Love Test

I've been getting a lot of messages about this topic and while I've spoken about this when answering other asks or in longer debunkings... I decided to bring all of the lies together into one post.

The Lie: “The scales test was supposed to prove that Captainswan is true love because Emma chose to save hook instead of herself, but Emma, being the savior, would sacrifice herself for just about anyone. In fact, she did the same exact thing for Regina.”

The Truth: This isn’t entirely false but they are purposefully leaving out a specific detail here:

The scale was weighing her heart to see what kind of love it was.

“I think I know. I think I have to weigh my heart to see if my love for you is true.” - Emma 5x20

So if Regina had been standing there instead the door wouldn’t have opened because Emma’s heart doesn’t share true love with Regina. But it did open for Killian Jones. I still think his response was being tested as well because the show was always saying or showing that true love is shared. You can’t have true love if the other person doesn’t return it (like Rumple and Belle have both rejected the other or how it doesn’t work when the other person doesn’t remember who they are or who the other person is). Not only did they pass a true love’s test but a Greek god basically said "these two kids belong together” and made it happened. So the writing is clearly telling you that these two characters are true love and if that wasn’t enough they had a second true love’s door test in S6 that opened a door to Killian Jones.

CaptainSwan was shown to share true love. It’s canon. Deal with it.

I also just really hate the hypocrisy with them! According to the SQers, when it comes to Regina, Emma only sacrifices for Regina because it’s true love but if Emma sacrifices for Killian Jones then all of the sudden it's because she would do that for anyone! News flash: if a random town person had been about to be destroyed by the darkness like Regina then Emma still would've taken on the dark curse! Sorry to burst your bubbles!

The Lie: “Emma’s speech to Regina in 4x05 proves that the test in the Underworld wasn’t a test of romantic true love, but a test of character for Emma. Hook represents an ordeal or an enemy. If she can love her enemy like she loves herself (and the test has her choosing between her own pain and his) then she can definitely love everybody like herself. Meaning she can walk around in the world and regard everyone with compassion" so they bring in her speech to regina in 4x05 and how personal love like hers for regina trumps hers with hook cause it's personal."

The Truth: For starters, the show isn’t that deep. Now, if you want to make up all of the subtext you want, however illogical you want, go for it!

But truth is, Hook wasn’t representing an ordeal or an enemy. If anything, the test would be the enemy since the test was what was causing the pain. You don’t save an enemy from an enemy. The fire would be the enemy. I swear, when they reach for something they truly reach. So that’s a swing and a miss right there.

As for Emma’s NAUSEATING speech in 4x05…

Emma: No, when I was a kid. Someone came into my life for a while, and I thought we were gonna be… Best friends. But this girl lied to me, and I pushed her away because of that lie, and she asked me to forgive her, but I never did. It took some time, but I realized that was a mistake. And I regretted the decision. But by then, it was too late. The damage was already done. I don't want to make the same mistake again, Regina. Living in Storybrooke, I've got my son and my parents, and I love them. But they can't always understand me. They don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood… Not the way I do, not the way you do. And somehow that makes us… I don't know… Unique, or maybe even special. I wasn't looking for you to assuage my guilt. I was just looking for you to be my friend.

First off, I can barely read through this garbage without gagging. Imagine writing a heroine begging for the friendship of a woman who destroyed her childhood and doesn’t regret it and whose acting like it’s the heroine’s fault her life was ruined when SHE caused it by being a ruthless tyrant? Anyway, I digress. This scene is disgusting and definitely has NOTHING to do with a romantic true loves test.

Emma is trying to connect with Regina because the writers have decided that the two need to be best friends. However one sided it may and did end up being! Emma was trying to get back on Regina’s good side after being blamed for causing Regina’s broken heart. It doesn’t go any deeper than that. And if you look at this speech, it's even more disgusting because Regina doesn't know what it's like to be rejected or misunderstood in the way Emma was. Emma was rejected by her adoptive family and other potential adopters through no fault of her own. Regina CHOSE to be an evil tyrant and because of that she was rejected. She was never misunderstood. Everyone understood perfectly well that she would kill anyone in the way of taking the throne.

Besides. Hades and the writing on the scale specifically mentions true love not self love or platonic love or friendship. Emma definitely doesn’t love everybody. She also doesn’t share true love with everyone either. The show has never once proven or even hinted at that.

The Lie: Regina was actually Emma's true love in the Underworld and that the test was a lie.

The Truth: Hades lied about the tree. But he did not lie about the test. The test happened.

What proof is there that Regina is Emma’s true love? Emma and Killian sensed each other while apart. All Regina did the entire time was chase after her first love’s ghost, heal a horse, and have a family reunion.

[southernsense]

Southern Sense is conservative talk with Annie "The Radio Chick" Ubelis, as host and "CS" Bennett, co-host. Informative, fun, irreverent and politically incorrect, you never know where we'll go, but you'll love the journey! Southern-Sense.com Dr. Wilfred Reilly, author of "Hate Crime Hoax" Prof. Reilly examines over one hundred widely publicized incidents of so-called hate crimes that never actually happened. With a critical eye and attention to detail, Reilly debunks these fabricated incidents, many of them alleged to have happened on college campuses and explores why so many Americans are driven to fake hate crimes. AlfonZo Rachel, Rachel's video commentaries became a favorite for his ability to express profound and creative perspectives from a christian conservative angle with charming humor. www.bronzeserpentmedia.com Dr. Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr. author of "Desert Fox, The Storied Military Career of Erwin Rommel. Dr. Mitcham is the author of over 40 books. He is a visiting professor at West Point and served as a helicopter pilot during the Vietnam War. Dedication: Army Staff Sgt. Travis Atkins, Medal of Honor awardee, killed by a suicide bomber in Iraq, June 1, 2007

[ouatsnark]

CaptainSwan has an abusive marriage because Hook was a villain. DEBUNKED.

I had a request on X formerly known as Twitter to debunk the below CaptainSwan hate. I think I have covered all of this before but I thought I might remind the Regina Apologists that if you use these arguments against CaptainSwan you’re a raging hypocrite. So yes, this is going to be another “but what about your ship” post just for the purpose of pointing out the hypocrisy.

So buckle up CSers and let’s dive into another installment of “WTF did that Regina apologist just say!?”

Proof of Emma & Killian’s Abusive Marriage?

Apparently Emma is doomed to a life of abuse, because according to Regina Apologists, Killian has a history of abusing Emma:

Hook physical assaulted Emma: Body Slamming, Shoved, abused other women too (villain Hook)

Hook sexual assaulted Emma and other women (false)

Hook attempted to kidnap Emma’s son (a swing & a miss)

Hook has poor communication skills (writing trope, stfu)

Hook has a drinking problem (HAD. therefor head canon)

Hook is rude to Emma’s mother (shower remark) and Henry (ONE TIME. You’re never rude to anyone?)

Hook shifts blame from himself to Emma (ONE TIME if you even want to count this & it’s about killing David’s father & he corrected himself)

Hook made Emma co-dependent as she was willing to let her parents die and her brother become an orphan (What is this even? Is it the Under World trip? But Henry isn’t mentioned… I think they got their Regina list confused with the Killian list.)

Hook treated her like trash, manipulated & lied to her, put her down, especially when angry (Villain/DO Hook)

Hook jumped off a roof just to get Emma to talk to him (get over it losers)

Hook is Professor of Moodiness 101 (What is that even? They didn’t have enough bullet points I guess)

Hook thinks family and friends are possessions but Emma’s loved ones are threatened by Killian?? Tried to maliciously kill Emma’s family and friends (more Villain/Dark Hook & he apologized, went to hell and was tortured)

What about the future of Regina & Emma's toxic friendship (cause canonically that's all that existed)?

Regina physically assaulted Emma and plenty of other people too.

Regina sexually assaulted Graham AND y’all seem to think “taste my forbidden (poison) fruit” is sexual.

Regina abused Emma’s son, tried to turn him against her and then attempted to kidnap him (she was evil so she had no rights, please understand this)

Regina has a self-centered, wont listen to anyone else, attitude problem

Regina also has poor communication skills

Regina is rude to Emma’s family and friends ALL OF THE TIME. So not just once like Killian. But All the time.

Regina was the one that actually let Emma’s parents sacrifice themselves in S6 for her instead of being a true hero.

Regina actually treated Emma like garbage before and after her supposed redemption (Regina lied, manipulated, used, insulted, degraded and dismissed Emma all 6 seasons)

Regina used the dagger to hurt Emma and tried to force Emma to tell her secrets that Emma didn’t want to share with Regina

Regina murdered Emma’s wish parents in front of her & no amount of begging made her stop (she still failed)

Regina destroyed Emma’s life and was the one to actually try and murder Emma and her parents on multiple occasions AND SHE DOES NOT REGRET IT.

If things that Villain Hook and the Hook consumed by Darkness did is proof that redeemed Killian Jones will abuse Emma Swan then the exact same can be said for Regina Mills. And Regina was never consumed by darkness. I know you all like to pretend that Dark Hook was the “Real Hook” but it wasn’t and you need to get over that. The darkness controls & manipulates its host but you’d know that if you looked at Rumple or even watched Season 5.

So are we done using these as reasons Emma and Killian will have an abusive marriage? Because obviously if SwanQueen had ever been a thing then they would have an extremely abusive partnership if we apply this same logic to them. Actually, Regina is more likely to abuse Emma than Killian Jones because between the two of them my list is more accurate for her and she has history of domestic violence (Graham, Snow, Henry, King Leo, her father). And the fact that Regina is an abusive “friend”.

But OUATSnark, all of these one time things add up! Yeah, we’re human beings. Our mistakes tend to do that. That’s why circumstances, context, intent and patterns and responses matter. So let’s break these down one by one shall we? I will be throwing Rumbelle into the mix just in case any Rumbellers out there wanna agree with the Regina Apologists.

Physical Assault

CLAIM: Hook physically assaulted Emma by body slamming her and shoving her. He also physically abused other women.

CORRECTION! Emma and Hook physically assaulted each other. Kinda. Is this what the kids are calling sword fights these days? This happened when Hook was a villain. When Emma and Hook were on opposing sides. Yes, they had a sword fight. Things happen during a sword fight. You know how that ended? He got a rock to the face. Way to go Emma! That was also after she betrayed him. Way to not listen to your literal inner voice, Emma. And yes, Hook gave her a little shove out of the way to get to Rumple. All of this happened when they were still enemies.

Neither Hook nor Emma touch each other in a violent way once he is on his path to redemption and aside from them being literally consumed by evil. Them as dark ones is not a measuring tool for how they are since they’re no longer consumed by evil.

Other abuse: Yes, Hook was a villain. He had victims that were women. He had victims that were men, too. The women victims, however, weren’t victims because they were women or because he was seeking to control them in a relationship so that does not mean he’d be an abusive husband. He was an equal opportunist villain. Please check his EQUAL partnership with Milah as more proof he is not a domestic abuser. Just because someone commits one kind of crime doesn’t mean they commit all kinds of different crimes. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

So why is all of this a problem now that Hook’s redeemed? It’s not a problem unless you hate CaptainSwan because you (wrongly) think Hook ruined your chances at your actual abusive toxic ship because…

Regina was physically abusive to Emma before her redemption:

She tried to poison Emma, twice (S1)

Threw her down a driveway (S2 when Emma rightly called Henry “HER SON”)

Punched her (S1 over Graham)

Choked her (S2 trying to stop Emma from getting in the way of turning Cora into a DO)

So Regina also has a history of being physically abusive to Emma when they were still enemies. I guess that means Swanqueen would have a terribly abusive marriage too, then, right? Or are you a double standard hypocrite? For the record, I don’t think the above is proof she undoubtedly would be. However…

Oh but wait, Regina was physically abusive to Emma AFTER her redemption:

Regina used the dagger to control Emma and LIKED that it hurt Emma. This is only significant because Regina reveled in hurting Emma with that dagger. She didn’t even apologize or care either. In fact she thought it was great that she made Emma thank her. That’s just abusive behavior. I’m sorry. When you hurt someone you love you apologize even if it’s an accident. And you sure as hell do not do it again then demand being thanked!

She used that dagger to torture Emma into revealing truths to her that Emma didn’t want to tell her. Regina might have been trying to help but she continued when an obviously hurting Emma BEGGED her to stop. Regina ultimately failed. But if Hook’s past is a reason you claim he’ll physically hurt Emma in the future then this is definitely a sign that Regina will push Emma past her breaking point if Regina wants something from her bad enough. Fair is fair, y’all!

Regina then murdered Emma’s wish parent’s in front of her Emma’s anguish didn’t even phase Regina. Again she pushed Emma past her breaking point and didn’t stop. SHE DID NOT STOP. Because Regina wanted to be the hero by any means necessary and she still failed! Emma’s pain is what brought Killian out of the darkness. Regina just kept on going!

Other abuses: Aside from all the murder, she choked a village child, abused her knights, tortured people and goodness knows what other things during her years of Tyranny. So. Yes, Regina likes to abuse people. She abused Belle after her redemption and didn’t care. She verbally abused young August (yes, she snapped under pressure but she is rude to someone at least every episode).

But do you know what Regina’s big red flag is? She forced Graham to have a relationship with her then killed him for rejecting her.

So which one is more likely to domestically abuse Emma and force her into a relationship? Hook or Regina? Regina has a history of domestic abuse so the answer would be Regina.

And for you Rumbellers out there that think Rumbelle had a beautiful marriage, lets remind you that Rumple was physically abusive to Belle:

Shook her

Threw her in a tower & locked her away

Put her in a sleeping curse

Uh oh looks like Rumbelle is going to be a highly physically abusive marriage! But wait, we already knew that. At least those of us without blinders on.

Newsflash y’all the enemies to lovers ships have a history of fighting. Shocker. But the only one to come to physical abuse AFTER redemption was SwanQueen. Therefor if you ship SwanQueen you shouldn’t be saying “CaptainSwan’s marriage is violent because of stuff that happens when they’re enemies”. And if you ship Rumbelle you should just stop talking all together.

Sexual Assault

CLAIM: Killian kissed Emma without her consent! He’s a pirate! All pirates rape! And he’s admitted to getting women drunk to rape them!

Do I have to say this again? Killian was trying to break a curse. The writers were paralleling them with Snowing. Just get over it!

And no, just because he was a pirate that doesn’t make him a canon rapist. You want to fanon him as one? That’s sick but it’s your right. But your fanon is not proof of canon.

And those words were not in that EF pub scene, that is not what that scene was about, and Emma has NO REACTION? Please just exercise some honesty and use some brain cells, I beg you!

Besides, If Hook is a sexual abuser because of the attempted true love kiss then so is David. If we follow this logic then surely he assaults Snow on a nightly basis, right? This isn’t meant to be a strawman argument… I am just trying to point out the hypocrisy. I know no one believes David does this cause it’d be far too ridiculous. So why is Hook held to a different standard? Because he is a villain or because you just hate him? Cause both kisses happened under the same circumstances and we never see Hook force a kiss on anyone outside of this very specific circumstance.

But let’s talk about Regina. Since y’all think “how to get the savior to taste my forbidden (poison) fruit” is something sexual then what does that say about your ship? Because to me it says sexual abuse is just fine as long as it’s Regina doing it. And as I said earlier she forced Graham into a relationship with her. She sexually assaulted him for 28 years then murdered him when he rejected her. What about David? Yes, her trying to seduce a cursed David is 100% attempted sexual assault. I’ve even seen people convincingly argue that she’s even touched Killian inappropriately and suggested she’d make David a sex slave when she had him in her prison.

And for you RUMBELLE stans out there: Yes, Rumple assaults Belle several times. Once when he was masquerading as Killian AFTER her rejection and ejection from her life. He uses the author to re-write her as his wife AFTER her rejection. And he kisses her without permission while she’s in the sleeping curse AFTER she’s rejected him again.

OK while we’re here let me just draw the SWANFIRE fans into this: Yeah yeah yeah Neal wouldn’t have been charged for statutory rape since 16 was the age of consent in that state but lets not pretend that a 150 yr old with a 16/17 year old isn’t cringy. His body might not have aged but he has the experience of two lifetimes worth of emotional and mental maturity. And again it’s just sick.

So I ask you… out of all these couples…which one is more likely to sexually abuse their partner? Regina and Rumple is the answer because they have CANON history of doing so. Neal is more likely to cheat on Emma with a much younger woman. Deal with it.

So lets also scratch sexual abuse off your reasons CaptainSwan is abusive cause one, its a lie and two, your favorite (Rumple, Regina or Neal) is actually the canon rapist.

Kidnapping Henry

CLAIM: “Hook attempted to kidnap her son. (To save him from Zelena, Cool motive. Still kidnapping)… I’m sure none of these things will cause problems in their marriage [sarcasm]”

So apparently Hook attempting to kidnap Henry to save him from Zelena is proof that Hook is going to abuse Emma during their marriage? Or maybe they meant Henry? Still. Say what? That does not even make even a little bit of sense. But to say this as someone who ships Regina and Emma? Are you for real? Lets review.

Regina actually physically and emotionally abused Henry.

Regina poisoned Henry (To kill Emma. Cool motive. Still did it.)

Regina mind-wiped Henry so she could kidnap him to the Enchanted Forest and leave Emma to die (she had no rights to him)

Regina used vines to restrain Henry after his rejecting her Regina gaslit Henry and made him & everyone else think he's crazy.

Regina lied & manipulated Henry to get him to hate Emma and Snow

Regina used him to get Emma to leave the jail so she could talk to a prisoner

Regina sent Emma’s son to spy on the dark one so she could rewrite her own story & screw up everyone elses

Hell, Emma kidnapped him in Season 1 to get him away from Regina’s abusive ass!

So before you use “Hook kidnapped Henry” as an excuse as to why CaptainSwan will have an abusive marriage please check your own ship first because Regina actually has a history of abusing Henry to get what she wants. At least Hook was attempting to protect him. Regina was purposefully hurting him.

Furthermore... I know you all would have been 100x more critical if Killian did nothing or if he'd chanced telling Emma. You all would say he was still endangering Henry. So, honestly, save your fake outrage.

Poor Communication Skills

CLAIM: “Hook got drunk instead of telling Emma the truth about her grandfather"

Since Hook got a little drunk one time while trying to work up the courage to tell Emma about David’s father he now has poor communication skills? That’s right folks. One time. See logical people understand that if something happens one time it’s not an indication that it is an ongoing problem. But if you hate Killian Jones it is an excuse to say that if he did it once of course he does it all the time!

Also it’s not like failing to tell someone something isn’t the oldest writing trope of all time. That couldn’t be it, could it!??? Like this is such a pathetic reach. CaptainSwan talk all the time about everything. About his part in Rumple’s past. That time he sat down with her and helped her see what her parents were going through. The fact that he’s always the one to say “I love you” first. But sure you go ahead and ignore that.

What about Regina and Emma? Regina had to use the dagger on Emma to try and get her to tell her why Emma was holding onto the darkness. All Killian had to do was ask. Regina dragged Emma to a bar to get her to open up about Killian leaving and Emma opened up to a bar tender instead! Regina refused to talk to Emma about Robin. Regina refused to listen to Emma about Henry/Pan and just walked away instead of communicating! Regina went back to Cora instead of seeking help from Emma. So far I am seeing more instances of SwanQueen not communicating!

You wanna talk about RUMBELLE’S communication or lack thereof? When did you ever hear Rumple ask Belle what she wanted? Cause he basically was just like “I’m gonna move your life around where I want it without asking”.

So again, what ship has the worse communication problems? Regina and Emma’s friendship sucks but honestly I’d give this one to Rumple since he just takes charge of Belle’s life.

Alcoholism

Hook apparently STILL has a drinking problem. Did you guys know that? I didn’t. Literally news to me! OK I’ve heard the claim before but it’s just another reach and a miss. Claims of Hook having a drinking problem are from biased people who’ve obviously never seen alcoholism. Or someone who successfully got on the wagon and stayed on it.

First off, no drunk is the same. You have angry drunks, friendly drunks, happy drunks, sleepy drunks, hyper drunks. We never see Hook as an angry drunk. So to say that he’s an angry abusive drunk is 100% fanon. We actually see him as a pretty happy, charming, drunk who’s giving Emma an out on whether or not to accompany him to his ship. So obviously not an angry or controlling drunk.

Secondly, has anyone actually counted how many times we’ve seen him drink? Because it was not every episode. NM that having one drink a day doesn’t make you an alcoholic. Getting drunk every once in a while does not make you an alcoholic. If it did then I guess I’d better get myself to AA.

Thirdly, we only see him as a falling down drunk on a few occasions. We know he was a drunk while on a slaver ship. And if you're going to hold that against him then I know you're a biased hypocrite who only cares about your fanon version of Regina's childhood and refuses to think about the fact that Killian was sold as a child slave. Liam pulled him out of that life and he was a good sailor in the navy (until the king double crossed them). The next time we see him as a falling down drunk was the season 3 finale when Emma was plying him with alcohol to keep him distracted. He was inebriated when he proposed but he was neither stumbling nor slurring his words.

So my point is: We never see present day Killian Jones drunk when he is needed or shirking his duties because of it. Alcoholism destroys jobs, relationships and your ability to function in life on a weekly if not daily basis. When did Killian do any of that? Again. Having a couple of drinks does not make you an alcoholic.

Furthermore, Hook is over 300 years old. If he STILL had an alcohol problem he’d have succumbed to it by now. But he obviously overcame that addiction since leaving the slave ship. There is nothing in canon about present day Killian Jones to suggest he'd fall back into alcoholism since he has something to live for and isn't being abused on a slave ship.

Just admit you all look for ways to hate on the ship instead of being honest.

Being rude to Emma’s mother and Henry

CLAIM: "Hook was rude to Snow & made a remark about needing a shower. He also snapped at Henry."

So let me get this straight. One joke about taking a cold shower means Killian will be so rude to Snow in the future that it will affect his marriage to Emma? Where is the pattern? It happening one time (I never took this as being rude but hey you’re welcome to the opinion) doesn’t indicate a problem. None of us ever behave perfectly. But apparently Killian Jones has to or else y'all go into hysterics!

I think it’s rather unfair to take one instance, blow it out of proportion, and use it to say CaptainSwan is abusive or will have an abusive marriage. If you don’t think it’s funny, that’s fine. Just acknowledge your bias and move on.

And the thing about Hook snapping at Henry? Again. ONE TIME. And it was under stressful circumstances. It’s not like the frustration was coming out of nowhere. The lives of people he cared about were in danger. And if you know anything about Hook, he hates just sitting still. I mean watch how antsy he was waiting on Merlin to find a way to help Emma. His reaction was 100% wrong. But it was also human.

Do you all know how often Regina puts Snow down? Are you all aware of it? I know you guys like to call it “sass” but clutching your pearls over one joke makes y’all look like hypocrites. I can let one thing slide but you know something is wrong when there is a pattern and Regina has a consistent pattern. She does it all the time. And it’s not even just to Snow! She is rude to Emma’s friends as well and the man Emma is dating. I don’t care if you hate the person your BFF is dating. You don’t put them down. It’s not going to do anyone any good except to hurt the person you profess to care about. And that’s not being a very good friend is it? No.

So I ask you again. Who is more likely to consistently insult Emma’s loved ones in the future? Regina. She has the pattern and the history of doing so. Therefor, strike this off your reasons to hate on CaptainSwan because your queen is just as guilty!

P.S. Rumbellers - don't think you're off the hook here. Be for real. Rumple doesn't value anyone's life except his own (and therefor Belle's because he wants her).

Shifts Blame

CLAIM: “Hook shifts blame from himself to Emma and blames her for not being able to tell her about David’s father”

“I swear to you… I wanted to tell you. I tried. But then you found that ring, and I just couldn't bear to ruin that happiness. Because I was ashamed, Emma, and scared of losing you and everything that matters to me.”

I never took Killian’s line here as him shifting blame. He was not accusing her. His tone was not accusatory. He was explaining to her why he couldn’t bring himself to ruin her happiness. He also goes onto explain how ashamed he was. All of that played a part in him making the wrong decision.

If you want to see this as him shifting blame. Ok. That’s you're right. HOWEVER. Again. To say that this one moment of weakness defines their entire relationship is completely dishonest especially since he totally recognizes his fault and says so the moment he reunites with her. And this is literally the only instance you can find of Killian (possibly) shifting blame.

I also think it’s very disingenuous seeing that he could have continued to blame Emma for everything he did as Dark Hook since she went against his wishes. But he didn’t. He took responsibility for his weakness. So this thing over David’s father is not a normal every day behavior. Y’all act like he’s gonna yell at her about dirty dishes he left in the sink and it’s just absurd. Killian was sincere when he tells her "I could never be angry with you" and he's pretty much lived up to that since his redemption.

Furthermore, have you never been so embarrassed by something you did that you tried to get away from it? What Killian Jones did was a very human reaction to immense guilt.

And then you have Regina Mills. She is the queen of shifting blame and she’s done it more than once. Tried to blame Henry being in the mine on Emma when it was really her fault. The entire Marian arc was about blaming Emma for her own mess. Regina blamed Emma for the wraith chasing Robin Hood. Blames Emma for having to kill Wish Snowing. She NEVER apologizes for any of that. The author only records what happens (only one canon instance where the author abused his powers to manipulate a story and that was Snowing) yet Regina blames the book for the choices she made. Regina blamed Snow for making her the evil queen when Regina chose to do what she did of her own free will. She blames Rumple as well and while Rumple might have handed her the key she chose to take it and open up the door to dark magic. She sought Rumple out. She chose to go down that path. But everyone else gets blamed besides Regina. Cora gets blamed even though she was long gone when Regina sought Rumple out because she admitted to LIKING the dark magic. Hell, for a good portion of S6 they all acted like the evil queen was a separate entity!

Co-dependence

CLAIM: “Killian made Emma co-dependent as she was willing to let her parents die and her brother become an orphan“

WHEN WAS THIS? I don’t think it is S5 otherwise they’d mention Henry. If they are talking about S6 that was Regina… like when I say they project, they project! Emma tried to stop serumQueen. You know who could have easily stopped the serumQueen? Regina. By using her own heart. But she only did that to save Zelena. Regina also could have sacrificed herself to save the very people that are responsible for the 999 chances she's gotten and whose lives she destroyed.

So laying this on Emma is just an outrageous reach especially calling it co-dependent when just last season Emma set out to kill Dark Hook and then made the decision to leave Killian in the Underworld and return to Storybrooke.

You want to talk about co-dependence?

Regina was so damn dependent on Robin and getting her happy ending that she shut Henry out of his occasional home so she could mope. She was so damn dependent on Robin for happiness that she thought about destroying Emma’s happiness with Hook. Regina was so dependent on Robin that she abandoned Emma and their ride BACK TO HENRY to chase Wish Robin after she just got done reassuring Emma that Wish People weren’t real! Kindly STFU.

You want to talk about co-dependence?

Rumple refuses to let Belle go.

Badly treated: manipulation, lies, insults, etc

The only times Killian has ever treated Emma like “trash” is when he was a villain (and she gave it right back to him) and when he was literally cursed by darkness. And no, my little Regina apologists, his Dark One Hook persona is not who he REALLY is. Who he REALLY is, is the man we saw right before being consumed and after. The man who always put Emma first, encouraged her, supported her and believed in her. If you follow canon, it is quite clear that being consumed by darkness changes you and not only that the darkness was pushing for him to hate Emma so that they could separate them and use Killian to get what they wanted.

What really irks me is that if everything Killian said to Emma while a villain or consumed by darkness is reason that redeemed Killian would abuse Emma later in marriage then newsflash hypocrites Regina would do 10x worse. Because even after her supposed redemption Regina insulted Emma and ridiculed nearly ever plan or idea she came up with. Yet it is OK to ship Emma with Regina? So let’s review.

Regina treating Emma like garbage, lying, manipulating, insulting her etc etc BEFORE her redemption:

Regina: I will destroy you if it is the last thing I do.

Regina: …How grateful I am to have Henry. Because not having someone? Well, that’s the worst curse imaginable. (Praying on Emma’s vulnerability)

Blaming Emma for Henry being the mine when it's Regina's fault

Regina: Well, of course not. Because you’re incapable of feeling anything for anyone. There’s a reason you’re alone, isn’t there? (again praying on Emma's vulnerability & shifting blame for emma's life)

Fires Emma from her job. Says she doesn’t deserve the badge.

Regina: Well, I think you picked a really slow horse this time. It’s not like you to back a loser.

That time she published Emma’s jail record; Regina: Oh, I’m sorry. You didn’t want people to know you cut his cord with a shiv?

Snaps at Emma for saving her in a fire

Regina Mills spent the first season trying to turn Henry against Emma

Would have let Emma die but only saved her and Snow in the end because of Henry (s2)

Regina: Because you know so much about parenting in the five minutes you’ve been with him. Talk to David. At least he took care of him while you were away. Like I did, during the ten years you were away the first time. (anti-birth parent rhetoric, victim blaming & diminishing the child abuse she put Henry through)

Regina: Miss Swan. I assume you’re here to apologize. - where the eff is her apology for everything?

Regina: He's not yours. He's mine. And after I cast this, you'll never see him again.

Regina called her an idiot

Dismissing Emma about fearing for Henry in NL (S3)

So surely if all of Killian’s words against Emma before his redemption & during being consumed by darkness is a sign he’d continue long into their marriage then Regina’s insults and ill treatment are a sign she’d do the same? Right?

Oh but wait, Regina’s ill treatment of Emma AFTER her redemption:

Dismissing Emma’s struggle as Dark Swan & acting like she knows more about what’s it like to be consumed by evil when she has never been consumed (5x23)

Acting like she’s the only one to ever lose love (S5, Robin stabbing)

Never once thinking of Emma when Hook died - all she could do is belittle Emma over trying to save him because it effected her yet she did the same thing with Robin & even Daniel! 

Wanted her HEA at the expense of others & endangered Henry to get it & also ignored the danger Emma was in to find it (s4 over rewriting the book)

Saying she was Henry’s best chance during the Shattered Sight curse (s4) and that wasn't true

Ignoring Emma’s concerns about Henry and falsely accusing Emma of being jealous (Pan-S3)

Making Emma feel bad about Henry’s tear all because she is jealous she doesn’t know Henry as well as Emma & ignoring how much she hurt Henry (S5 finale)

Regina called Emma a problem (5x01)

Regina stole Emma’s agency because she didn’t trust her to make the right choice whereas Killian insisted it had to be her choice without forcing her.

Regina believed the worse; that Emma would destroy light magic.

Regina blamed Emma right away for the demon. She never apologized (5x02).

THE ENTIRE MARIAN ARC. Regina had Emma doubting in herself when in fact everything that was happening was Regina’s fault.

Calls Emma an idiot again

Regina claims Emma ruined her life

Regina often doubted Emma’s abilities & thought she was more capable and Regina refused to follow her leadership (S3 over the map, S3 over Zelena, S3 over finding Neal who could read the star map, S6 in mirror mirror)

She often used anti-birth mother rhetoric (accusing Emma of being jealous in 3x10, being safer with her in shattered sight curse, S5 finale over Henry & Violet’s favorite song & the sEQ calling herself his real mother).

Swanfire really needs to shut up about this too. Emma and Neal weren’t enemies so their list isn’t as dramatic as SwanQueen and CaptainSwan but it doesn’t mean it isn't bad! And it is bad considering the fact that Neal abandoned her, laughed about her powers, yelled at her for not telling him about Henry AFTER he was the one to walk away from her, let her take the fall for his crimes and then only tried to get her back when it was convenient for HIM.

Rumbellers also have no room to criticize Killian’s past and use it as a way to disparage CaptainSwan because their ship is full of horrible things. Adultery. Liking Belle to an object to have (makes statements that he can have Belle and his power). Lied to her about the dagger then married her anyway. Thinks Belle is ignorant and wants to keep her that way. Literally shackled her with that bracelet to control her.

OutlawQueen can take a seat too. The fact that they committed adultery next to his dying wife's frozen body makes that ship absolutely disgusting. And yes, it counts because they believed her to be his wife. Intent matters. And the fact that Regina never told him the truth or how she wanted to make sure his son never had a mother so she could have Robin. AWFUL.

Hook jumped off a roof just to get Emma to talk to him

Come talk to me when he does this cause she’s on a date with someone else, just sitting around talking to her friends or family or you know otherwise busy and when they aren’t in the middle of a major crisis where everyone could die.

Hook is the Professor of Moodiness 101

Seriously. Wtf is this? They didn’t have enough bullet points I guess? Have they met Regina Mills? Cause Regina is constantly snapping at everyone. I know you all like to laugh and say “she’s just sassy” but that doesn’t make her comments or the tone she says them in any less rude. And no one laughs but you all. And yes, she does this a lot in frustrating moments but it’s all the time compared to Killian’s …what? Two?

Whether you all like it or not Killian Jones's attitude is dramatically different after the S3 winter finale onward. And he improves even more after the s4 winter finale. By the time we get to the last half of Season 5 we are looking at a much more mature Killian Jones being the man he was always meant to be.

But Regina? Regina never loses her attitude. She may have stopped killing. She may have joined team hero to get her happy ending. But she is still rude and extremely self-centered.

Trying to murder friends and loved ones

CLAIM: Family and friends are possessions but Emma’s loved ones are threatened by Killian?? Tried to maliciously kill Emma’s family and friends

I love how they threw “maliciously” in there like there is any other way to try to kill someone? Gotta make it sound more sinister, I guess? Ok Regina Apologist! Whatever floats your boat!

I think this refers to Killian being consumed by darkness which he only did because he was indeed consumed by darkness. So if this is why Killian will abuse Emma in the future then surely Regina’s lifelong goal of killing Emma and the Charmings is also cause to say that she too would abuse Emma in the future? Otherwise I missed all of the plotting he did before and after? He doesn’t have cause to try and kill Emma’s friends or family. He never did. So the only way this would occur is if he’s cursed again.

Regina has reasons to though! Out of jealousy and her want to have Henry to herself! So yes, my little Regina apologist. Regina is more likely to snap later on and decide she’s sick of watching everyone else be happy and create another curse. Just look at how much she wanted to steal Emma’s happiness when she lost Robin? That is after her “redemption” too.

And for you Rumbellers out there, Rumple tried in S4, 5, 6 and 7 to isolate Belle from everyone by killing them off or harming them in some way. And when he finally managed to get her alone, she rapidly aged and died. So really you all have no room to talk about any other ship.

Regina also tried to murder Robin's wife. So OutlawQueen can also scratch this one out. I mean the only reason they're together is because Regina murdered his wife.

CONCLUSION: Regina is more likely to abuse her future partner & Rumbelle is the poster ship for domestic abuse

So heads up OutlawQueen, SwanFire, SwanQueen, Rumbellers or pretty much any ship outside of Snowing... do not come at my ship for things that have nothing to do with the present day relationship when I have plenty of "present time" receipts to make your ship look 10x worse.

CaptainSwan fans ship Emma Swan with the Killian Jones who was the only one to ever put her first, let her make every decision moving forward in their relationship and was the only one to always believe in her.

[ouatsnark]

CaptainSwan is Anti True Love? DEBUNKED

"When C$ can't really stop being the anti true love to Snowing's true love: In 3x11, when Snow went to say goodbye to Emma on her own, Charming stayed behind. He was sad, too. But he didn't rush her or anything. He just waited, and there was a dark curse literally on its way. In 7×02, hook had to go and drag Emma. Not even giving her enough time to properly say goodbye to her son (let alone his other mother) And nope, I don't buy the "because she wasn't able to let go otherwise", he literally interrupted all the emotional interactions between Henry and his moms." - Signed, a Regina Apologist

Welcome back to another installment of WTF did that Regina Apologist just say!???

I had to laugh at that first sentence there. Maybe there were other posts made on this but I was only sent this one. So. Yeah. This one instance is all they can pull out of their ass to claim CaptainSwan is the anti-Snowing? When CaptainSwan is over here paralleling all of Snowings major true love moments? Mmmmkay someone has selective memory.

But lets debunk this.

Portals vs Dark Curses

Yeah they could see a big ass cloud of dark curse heading their way, right? What about the portal? Was there a timer above it flashing? Cause if so I missed it. I mean... could it possibly be... THEY DID NOT KNOW WHEN THE PORTAL WAS GONNA CLOSE, YOU MORONS.

I know guys. Logic is hard. And if you used logic then you wouldn't have any argument at all.

Hook didn't give Emma enough time to say goodbye?

What in the actual ...? They had plenty of time. There's two scenes of them saying goodbye for pities sake! TWO SCENES. Did you want a third? Actually, there's not enough time in the world for a mother to say goodbye to a child but goodbye is part of letting that child go to find their own way. Truth is they had to catch a portal home. And before you claim Regina is the better mother, please spare me. She was a grown woman following her adult son around because she was pathetic and didn't have a life of her own.

I love how Hook gets the blame for Regina not saying goodbye to Emma like Regina doesn't have two legs and a voice of her own. Sorry, luvs, but your queenie just didn't care enough and neither did Emma. That is sign #99 that they don't mean that much to each other outside of Henry.

Interruptions?

And I am going to need a list of all these "emotional interactions" that Hook interrupted between Emma, Henry and Regina. Sounds like a bunch of fanon to me.

Oh and just so you know...

CaptainSwan's moment in 3x11 actually did parallel Snowing.

Oopsies. Someone goofed. How embarrassing for you.

[ouatsnark]

i stay in your inbox but whatever lol. this is NEW a blog post claiming emma marrying hook was symbolic because she was marrying her SELF with hook representing all the past and ugly scars and the abusive men in her life and her dress turning black representing hook killing her grandfather and what not (that being the black fairies fault....) and since they didn't share TLK zelena and regina can represent the mental and physical recovery she can be on..IS IT EVER THAT SERIOUS, can't we have fun?

I like the fact that you practically live in my inbox! It keeps things new and exciting. Especially when you deliver new "What the hell did that Regina Apologist just say" material because HOT DAMN what the hell is that!???

The Regina Apologist and subsequent SwanQueen shipper really do watch the show with special goggles on. Because that makes absolute zero sense.

How are two evil sisters representing Emma's healing? Regina has done nothing for 6 seasons but belittle Emma and tear down her skills as the savior and as a sheriff. And Zelena means nothing to Emma. Zelena and Regina are quite toxic together, actually, and neither one of them have their shit together. Both have their own emotional baggage.

So they think Emma wanted to marry her scars? That makes no sense. Especially since Hook is not a representation of Emma or her past romances. He is actually a representation of her healing because it was Hook that broke down her walls, Hook that showed her the future was nothing to fear and it was Hook that allowed her to heal and find love again. He is nothing like Neal who always put her down. Regina is more like Neal in the sense that Regina doesn't believe in Emma either. And, as you pointed out, the dress turns black because of the Black Fairy. The symbolism there is that the Black Fairy wants to squash out the good and turn it evil. It has nothing to do with Emma and Hook's relationship.

That fandom seriously does reach for any absurdity they can to discredit Captain Swan and lift up Regina.

Oh I almost forgot! The fact that Emma and Killian never shared a True Love's Kiss is so irrelevant. The TLK started to be handed out like candy. I am glad they didn't get one because they got something better. They got two unique true love confirmations and the fact that they've transcended realms. The show showed us more of why and how they are true love than with any other couple aside from Snowing who also transcended realms.

[ouatsnark]

saw the dumbest post saying cs was toxic because emma was choosing him cause he was easy and that because she put up her walls and he wanted to break them down it was bad like WHAT???????? i need a debunking

I think someone is confused about how facts work vs their own biased dislike of a pairing. Its OK not to vibe with CaptainSwan… but tossing in “CS is toxic because I made up stuff” is just laughable. When did Emma say she chose him because he “was easy”? How does one reach this conclusion? And what does that even mean? Neal was right there too but she chose Killian. And yes, I consider it her choosing Killian because she stood Neal up and was thinking about Killian. Did they want a third love interest to step in? Considering that her parents were pushing her toward Neal and away from Hook… how was the choice “easy”? This opinion just is not an opinion supported by canon.

CaptainSwan haters dislike the fact that it was Killian Jones that helped her break down her walls. Because 1) their fave didn't do it and 2) because their fave didn't do it they like to claim it made her weak cause she was no longer closed off and giving a “i dont need anyone” vibe. Cause apparently you’re not a strong woman if you love a man. Its all so stupid.

Anyway, Killian didn't break through anything Emma didn't want broken down because of the way he went about it. He showed her that he would support her and put her first (following her lead/giving up his home etc). It was shown that he waited for her to be ready every step of the way (she asked him out/moved in/marriage). He made himself available but gave her the space to decide (backed off for Neal/waited for her to call him). I think this is one of the things that makes Hook so right for Emma is that he was so patient and wanted to help her through the trauma of her past. And someone who decides that it is toxic hasnt watched the entire series and only watched it with their ‘i want my fave with emma not him” goggles on.

Thanks for the ask!

[ouatsnark]

saw someone say once cs got together their relationship was just straight up love bombing and then hook putting emma down when what she was doing wasn't about him but their romantic relationship was a really long process in their timeline, i need a debunking

Do people not understand how people falling in love flirt?

Killian Jones made some pretty colorful declarations but the thing is... he was completely and totally sincere about them. His actions backed up his words. From the start he was impressed with Emma's leadership and we saw how he listened and followed her lead for the entire series. He declares that he intends to win her heart but not through any trickery and again he stands by that as he waits patiently for her to see who he is then lets her make every single move in their relationship. He once says that he would like to know everything about her and this was the truth because he follows through in S4 when he asks her to "show him her beginnings" and proceeds to learn who Emma really is. This is reflected in him bringing her onion rings, in knowing that his Emma wouldn't be trying to destroy light magic and in that story time speech he gives. These were not love bombs but honest declarations. There's probably even more but those are some top examples off the top of my head.

There is not one instance of Hook putting Emma down while they were together and not cursed and there is NOT ONE SINGLE instance of Hook EVER putting Emma down because something wasn't about him. That's just a straight up lie someone fanoned up cause they felt like they needed more fodder for their hate.

[ouatsnark]

What happened to Emma Swan? DEBUNKED

Ever so often the Swan Queen fandom gets it in their heads to try & tear down Emma Swan's look and character development simply because she married a man… a man who treated Emma far better than their Queen. Their arguments prove that they lack the will to understand the writing as they blatantly twist canon to fit their narrative.

"What happened to season one Emma Swan? She went from happy to miserable because of Killian Jones" - Regina Apologists

This is a prime example of how Regina Apologists are so dishonest. The two pictures on the left are promotional shots from the show. The two pictures on the right are moments from Season 6 when Emma is in distress. The first image she is watching her parents sacrifice themselves for the good of Storybrooke (while Regina, who is at fault, does nothing). The second one is when Emma was having visions of her own death. These instances have NOTHING to do with Killian Jones! However, I can find plenty of times when Emma was in distress due to Regina Mills!

I have found so many examples of them pulling this crap. I would be here all day screen capping their dishonesty.

The truth: Emma Swan wasn't happy in Season 1 & that Emma wasn't the real Emma

Yes, you heard me. Season 1 Emma wasn’t the real Emma. The real Emma was hiding behind an armor of red leather jackets, fake eye-lashes and a chip on her shoulder to keep everyone at arms length. She put on a tough bravado as an armor to protect herself from the world because she'd been hurt too many times.

But as a time passed, Emma needed less and less armor. She became more trusting and more open to love, family and happiness. When she shed that armor she let herself be more vulnerable. She became more caring toward others. Which is about the bravest thing you can do.

The more and more we saw Emma opening up to love the less armor she used. And the less armor she used, the more we hear from the Anti-CaptainSwan crowd that...

How do you go from THIS to this??? - Regina Apologist

GASP! A woman didn’t put on a bunch of make up & doll herself up for you SO SHE MUST BE MISERABLE & has no agency because she’s at the mercy of everyone!!!

Imagine degrading a woman for not wearing make up or curling their hair? You have got to be kidding me.

Also, if you really believe this, then you should be looking more favorably on Killian Jones. He obviously loved Emma for who she was and not how much make up she is wearing unlike like you fools.

Never mind that once again they grab a screen cap of when Emma is going through a tough time...and why is she going through a tough time? BECAUSE OF REGINA MILLS! Yeah, Regina's other half is trying to hurt her parents and possibly kill everyone all because Regina can't stop wanting to be evil!

The Truth: Killian Jones made Emma Swan happy

It's literally in her wedding vows. And you can see it on her face whenever she looks at him. Killian Jones helped her trust in love and not be afraid of the future.

The truth: Regina is the cause of 99% of Emma's problems

I've seen Regina stans try to say that Emma looked miserable during her vows but they fail to actually listen to what she is saying. She is not only fighting tears but when she looks away, apparently sad, she is remembering her life before Henry. She is thinking about when Henry came to get her which wasn't a happy time at all really. She was thinking about what Regina did to her and her family.

But she looks at Killian with all the happiness in her heart.

"Emma went from a badass in Season 1 to a Stepford Wife" - Regina Apologist

I love how they continue to use promo shots and bts pictures.

It’s like the Anti-CaptainSwan crowd believes that there is only one way to be a strong woman: having a chip on your shoulder, being sarcastic to everyone, never needing anyone (especially a male) and being single (unless its w|w). They just don’t like the fact that Emma not only chose her own path but fights for everyone and not just their precious queen.

I have actually heard Rumple stans call Emma a Stepford wife as well because she chose Hook over Rumple's cowardly son Neal. Which is just hysterical since Belle is literally a Stepford wife. She ignores all of his abuse, his bad deeds and his manipulation and stays with him.

The Truth: Emma Swan was still a badass after getting together with Killian Jones:

S4 taking down dragon Lily

S4 telling grumpy to back off before she turns him into stumpy (hey you thought sarcasm was badass? there you go!)

S4 taking on the darkness to save the town

S4 defeating Cruella to save Henry

S5 going up against Nimue

S5 confronting Rumple about him being the Dark One again

S5 doing what she had to do and knowing she had to destroy Dark Hook

S5 telling Regina to fix her own damn problems for once cause Emma was done doing it for her

S6 going up against Wish Hook.

S6 going up against the Serum Queen

S6 sacrificing herself for Gideon and destroying the dark fairy

Furthermore, if Emma was that dependent on Killian Jones then she would not have left the Underworld without him. But she did leave him for the sake of Henry and others who needed her.

DEBUNKING MYTHS

Emma is complex but SQers fail to accept Emma’s evolution because it didn’t involve her becoming Regina’s doormat in every aspect of her life.

I know it's hard for Regina Mills stans to spot character growth, since their queen didn't have one, but Emma Swan and Killian Jones are where the most character growth happened. They evolved into much better people as the series came to a close.

Here are some things I've seen when talking about Emma's evolution or about her being worse off with Killian Jones than she would have been with Regina or Neal. And lets be real here, Emma was worse off with Regina as a friend. That is just a fact.

THEY NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE REGINA'S TRUE ROLE

I will see them talk circles around Regina's role in Emma's life to avoid putting blame where it should be and that is directly on Regina Mills. They will say things like "The Charmings abandoned Emma" but The Charmings didn’t just abandon Emma. THEY SAVED HER LIFE with the hope that Emma would return to save the entire kingdom FROM REGINA. Regina was going to murder infant Emma.

They will also go on about how Killian and Emma were enemies at first. Killian Jones was never as much of an enemy to Emma like Regina Mills was. Regina emotionally and physically hurt Emma and destroyed her life.

MYTH: EMMA WAS ONLY AT HER BEST IN SEASON ONE OR WITH REGINA

As mentioned above, they prefer closed off and alone Emma. However, Emma was at her best when she let down her walls & allowed herself to love. A heart full of love is beautiful. But love to Regina apologists only looks like Emma bowing to Regina. Well. Emma was closed off, negative, sarcastic & willing to overlook all of Regina’s shit for the sake of Henry. Allowing someone to put you down the way Emma allows Regina is NOT someone at their best.

Emma at her best understands sacrifices for the greater good, forgiveness, mercy & the strength of love. That was Emma during all 7 seasons. Actually, Emma showed Regina way too much mercy (Rumple too, in fairness).

MYTH: EMMA WAS FORCED TO CHOOSE HOOK

Anyone who says that Emma was forced to be with Hook because Killian & her parents "pressured her" or "made her" is hating Emma Swan. This is a bunch of fanon nonsense & not canon. No one was forcing Emma. You can’t point to a single scene or dialog that suggests that. Quite the opposite in fact.

You don’t fight for something as hard as Emma fought for her happy ending if it’s not what you want. Remember that Snow & David were against saving Hook in Camelot. They were more concerned about Emma. Hell, Killian Jones was more concerned about Emma's future than living! He wanted her to choose her life over his! It was Emma’s idea to go get Hook in the Underworld & everyone was against it at first (cause who just walks into the Underworld??). If Emma's parents were pushing her towards anyone it was Neal. So, no, no one was forcing Emma to be with Hook. When Charming gives his blessing to Hook he says that the final decision is up to Emma.

If you truly believe that Emma was forced to be with Hook then you don't understand Emma Swan. Emma didn't do anything that Emma didn't want to do. Remember when Emma was dead set on running back to New York in season 3? No one was going to change her mind. She had to find out on her own that life with Henry and her parents in Storybook was indeed home. Emma was perfectly capable of making her own decisions.

MYTH: GETTING MARRIED AND HAVING CHILDREN WAS NOT SEASON ONE EMMA'S HAPPY ENDING

Says who!? When did Emma say this? Emma didn’t want a family? GTFOH with that BS. More fanon that isn’t backed up by canon. She THOUGHT she wanted that life with Neal (re-watch Tallahassee). But after his betrayal she packed that side of her away for fear of being hurt again. You’re mistaking her protective armor for who she really is.

And furthermore proving that you don't know what character growth looks like. People change so characters should as well. Well written characters evolve.

MYTH: EMMA DIDN'T PUT HERSELF FIRST ANYMORE BECAUSE OF HOOK & WAS A SHELL OF HER FORMER SELF

Putting those you love first is a sign of unconditional love. I know that’s hard to understand since your queen is a self-centered bitch who never put anyone first… but Emma is different. And just because she wanted to be with her family doesn’t mean she wasn’t putting what she wanted first.

Emma being a shell of herself is a personal opinion. Emma evolved. She had many more layers by the time S6 rolled around. As I said above, her personality in S1-2 was a part of her armor as much as that jacket was. And to say she still wasn’t kicking ass in S6 is a lie. She sacrificed her life so a child would get his life back. Being a hero & putting others first is a strength of character. It’s honorable. Again, I know that’s hard seeing that Regina was 100% focused on her own happy ending but Emma was different. She is a character worth emulating because of her goodness, love and willingness to fight for others.

MYTH: THE CHARMINGS' & HOOK'S LOVE WAS CONDITIONED ON HER BEING THE SAVIOR AND BEING WITH HOOK

You just don’t like that she wanted Hook & not Regina. It’s also complete fanon that Emma’s acceptance depended on her being the savior & loving a man. The Charmings were too cautious about her relationship with Hook to be forcing that on her. They wanted her to be happy & when they saw she was, they accepted him. Also Hook’s love wasn’t dependent on her being the savior. Remember the scissors? Hook kept those suckers because her life meant more to him than her title.

[ouatsnark]

Regina was helping, Killian was abusing 5x08. DEBUNKED

What grinds my gears about Regina Apologist's rewriting this scene is that they completely gloss over Regina's actions. Believe what you want about Emma's hidden desires but it is not okay to pretend Regina was doing right here.

“Would Emma have confessed to Regina if she hadn’t been stopped?”

Emma wasn’t going to CONFESS anything to Regina. Period. However, Regina was FORCING Emma to reveal personal information Emma was not willing to disclose to her.

Using the word “confess” in this scene glosses over Regina’s abusive actions. Regina was quite literally controlling Emma.

“Regina would never cross the line. She'd give Emma make a choice”

Um excuse me? Regina was crossing the line. The only reason she didn’t get her way was because Killian Jones stopped her.

Killian Jones was the one unwilling to cross the line. He was the only one unwilling to FORCE Emma to do something against her will. Regina was all for forcing Emma!

Regina even tells Snow that it’s not her fault it’s painful. Regina admits to using torture tactics on Emma. Regina knew she was hurting Emma but in her quest to be the savior she didn’t care.

Only Killian Jones respected Emma’s agency.

“Killian was pressuring Emma. Emma told Killian not to follow but he did anyway”

I have had Regina apologists come at me and claim that what Regina was doing was helping Emma but Killian following her was actually abusive…

First off, Emma telling Killian “no” literally did not happen. However, Emma telling Regina “no” and Regina not listening totally did happen. I think we call this projection… you can ship your abusive crack ship but at some point you need to stop making up crap when in a discussion. Save your fanon for your own in-fandom properly tagged discussions.

Cause really rewriting canon to fit your fanon is dishonest. Its gaslighting. It gives new viewers or potential viewers false information about the show.

Back to reality: Killian Jones followed Emma, yes. But he talked to her. He didn't use force. And Emma willingly opened up to him. As we see in Season 6, Emma doesn't open up until she is ready. But when she does open up? It's almost always exclusively to Killian Jones. Or a bar tender when Killian has been pushed through a portal.

"Emma was fearful about a future with Kilian because he is abusive! She wanted Regina!"

That is not what Emma said. Emma has lost everyone she's ever cared for. She is scared of the future, period, because she is scared of losing it. She is no stranger to loss.

What other episodes have you seen people try to rewrite to fit their narrative of the show?

Let me know!

[ouatsnark]

CORRECTION! Regina got the Walmart villain-to-hero Redemption Story

Welcome to another round of “what the hell did that Regina apologist just say?” where I go over a fan submitted biased piece of drivel and rip it point by point! And yes, I do know it’s fan submitted and is indeed from an Evil Regal as I had a shouting match with them on twitter.

I think my favorite part is where this fan says Regina was noble for not regretting anything because of Henry. That is some serious code for “everyone else’s lives don’t matter when it comes to a hot female character that committed mass murder, rape and child abuse!” Well done!

Also I apologize for how many times I use “child abuse” and “rape” and “mass murder”. But, hey, this is what Once Upon a Time gave us! It’s not my fault the villain rapist stans refuse to acknowledge that their favorites are just utter garbage.

In my opinion, their argument boils down to: Despite Regina & Hook both witnessing deaths of loved ones and committing the same acts of evil, the show explored Regina's evil past more thoroughly than Hook’s but Regina’s reasons for turning evil made more sense than Hook’s. And ultimately Regina’s redemption means more because she reached the point of no return multiple times but a love for a child made her fight harder to be a better person and look forward to a promising future. A parent-child love is the only way for a villain to find a valid redemption because unconditional love only exists between parent-child.

But feel free to read the entire post to see for yourself: Killian Jones was a Walmart version of Regina Mills

My Argument: Yes, Regina & Hook share similarities but only Killian Jones received a complete redemption. A parent-child love is not the only way to show a villain’s change of heart since we very much saw a true change in Killian Jones. We also saw that Killian’s love for Emma was unconditional. True love is unconditional love and the show gives us several true love couples whose love for each other was in fact unconditional. OUAT gave us two true love tests that prove Emma & Killian are true love and goes further by deliberately paralleling them with Snowing & The Princess Bride. Killian also shows unconditional love for Emma by how he handles finding out Neal is alive and stepping aside to give Henry a chance at having his parents together. He also exhibits unconditional love by forgiving Emma for turning him into the dark one and accepting her reasons for doing so. He chose to always see the best in her and her in him and that is the foundation of an unconditional love. So the premise that redemption can only happen through parent-child love is a false one and clearly done as a way to reject Killian’s redemption status.

Never mind that Killian Jones did find his path to redemption through the love of a child: Henry. His relationship with Henry was essential in becoming the man he wanted to be since it showed how much Killian had grown from the vengeful pirate Baelfire rejected to the more humble man teaching Henry how to sail. Furthermore, Killian Jones’ redemption is complete and far more relevant because he: owned his mistakes, faced victims, showed remorse, faced consequences for his actions, demonstrated a change of heart and sacrificed his life to rid the world of the darkness forever.

Whereas Regina did not face any victims, blamed others for her actions, did not sacrifice her life (in fact she let Snowing sacrifice for her), never came clean about Graham & Marian’s murders and always whined about her own happiness. She also never had a change of heart as we hear her say she hates doing good (5x23) and even after her redemption she continued to behave like she was better than others by constantly putting them down, dismissing their pain and ignoring their concerns. Also, we should reject the idea of Regina’s redemption happened because of her love for Henry due to the fact that she emotionally abused him by putting her curse and her needs before his welfare and her abuse of him was never addressed but simply brushed away. A fictional character can’t have redemption through someone they abused when that abuse is not acknowledged. That’s not character growth its just a retcon. Regina was retconned into a “good” mother in S3.

Regina vs Killian: Becoming a Villain

Blog Quote: “Despite these similarities, the show explored Regina's evil past more thoroughly than Hook’s”

Basically says Regina’s reasons for turning evil made more sense than Killian’s.

Did it really though? Yes, Regina’s past was tied into the main characters so of course the show “explored” or rather spent more time on her past than Killian’s. Everything she did was to take down Snow and she hurt many other people on that journey. That was pretty much the driving plot on why Emma became the savior.

But lets break the down differences:

Regina lived a privileged life as a princess (head canons of Cora abusing her during childhood is not supported by canon and thereby irrelevant here) who never had to want for anything. She even had a doting father who may have been a pacifist but he at least loved her.

Killian Jones was abandoned by his father who sold him into slavery when he was just a child. That is in fact child abuse. Neglect and abandonment. He was abandoned and left to face whatever cruelty at the hands of slavers. He was raised by them doing back breaking labor. Can you for a moment imagine what that life must have been like for a child?

Their backgrounds could not be anymore different. Which one do you think would be more likely to choose a dark path if we take only canon into consideration? Answer: Killian Jones since his childhood was filled with abuse, abandonment and betrayal. He’d only known evil for so long. Note: this should not be used as a generalization because criminals come from all kinds of backgrounds but statistically speaking odds were not in Killian’s favor.

Blog Quote: They both committed similar acts of evil…

Imagine thinking Killian Jones’ crimes were anywhere near the same level as Regina’s? Look how black Regina’s heart is. What did she do over the course of the series that could have possibly diminished that evil? Nothing. She did NOTHING except do good things EXPECTING to get her happy ending. Then admits in Season 5 that she hated doing it. That is more of an act of an anti-hero than a hero. Which you could argue she is an anti-hero.

So what similar acts of evil do Killian and Regina share?

Each killed one of Emma’s grandfathers

Their own fathers

Abused Belle

Murdered people

Ok so maybe there is some truth to that statement. However.

Regina is the mass murderer.

Regina is the rapist.

Regina is the child abuser and child murderer.

Regina essentially magically raped an entire kingdom in both mind and body. Her curse separated families and had people sleeping with others they wouldn’t have slept with if not for her curse. Basically, Regina’s curse removed their ability to consent much like a date rape drug which is why we say she raped Graham even in Storybrooke and her attempt to seduce David was actually an attempted sexual assault. Her curse was vile. It also gave people memories of two separate lives and the second life was not a happy one!

Jefferson: Then all we’ll do is both sit. Stuck. Two lives in our heads, cursed worse than ever. Two lives, forever at odds. Double the pain, double the suffering.

Most of the people in Storybrooke wanted to flee the bad memories the curse created. And because they were fearful of Regina. But the Evil Queen stans seem to overlook the mental anguish this curse caused people. They now have two lives in their heads and the life Regina forced them to lead is the one life they’re really ashamed of. But that life is now a part of them whether they like it or not.

So Regina filled up her heart with plenty of dark deeds, some so heinous that there really can’t be forgiveness. So trying to put Regina on the same level as Killian is just absurd and erases her more heinous crimes. While Killian Jones should arguably get life in prison… Regina Mills should have faced a firing squad or possibly even burned at the stake.

In short I believe: Killian becoming a villain makes a lot more sense and at least his revenge focused on the root causes for his misery whereas Regina decided to make an innocent child suffer. Regina also decided to take on the very life her mother was supposedly forcing her to take.

Regina vs Killian: a Path to Redemption

Blog Quote: “they both had similar moments of bravery...”

CHANEL VS WALMART Killian stepped up to the plate. Regina stepped back.

I am not going to say that Regina was never brave or didn’t have her moments. But. Come on guys. This was HER MOMENT to prove she was sorry for everything she’d put Snow and her kingdom through and she did not take it!

And lets remember that they had no idea what the serum Evil Queen was planning. For all they knew she was going to kill the Charmings on the spot. Therefore, this moment here knocks about 10 checks off Regina’s bravery/hero column. Especially since she uses her own heart later to defend Zelena against her more evil half.

I have heard others argue before “but Regina had become good by then and already made things right with Snowing and her life was worth more than Snowing’s because of Henry!” However, that’s just nonsense. Regina doesn’t even regret what she did to Snowing nor has she done anything to make up for the horrific things she did to them. She joined their side to get her happy ending not because she was sorry for what she did to them. Also, Snowing had Baby Neal. I guess Henry is more important than Baby Neal? Henry would still have Emma, his real mother, were he to lose Regina, the mother that abused him for 10+ years. And Regina needed to make a sacrifice for her victims (Snowing) and for the greater good (the town) in order to complete a redemption.

Meanwhile, Killian Jones actually sacrifices his life to save them all from the Dark Ones then goes on to be tortured and nearly throne into the River of Lost Souls because he refuses to betray them. Even refuses to betray Gold! This alone adds about 20 checks to his bravery/hero column!

I have heard people say “but this was also cleaning up his mess”! I’m sorry did I misunderstand the part where he said he did not want to become a dark one? I am pretty sure he said he didn’t want to live if it meant becoming a dark one. So I am pretty much going to lay the blame at the feet of the darkness because the darkness was pushing its own agenda. The dark ones were the ones manipulating and using him so they could return. Then Killian had found the strength to break free from their hold and with Emma’s help end the darkness forever. Or would have if not for Gold. So no, this wasn’t his mess. He gave his life to end the mess!

Now a Regina Apologist might say “but Regina was going to sacrifice herself in season 2!”

If Regina didn’t sacrifice herself to stop the kill switch then Henry would die and at that point her perceived happy ending would be gone anyway. Her curse was broken and now the child she illegally adopted and abused was in peril thanks to her actions. This might have been a brave moment but it didn’t happen because she had a change of heart. It was because her plans were thwarted and there wasn’t an alternative solution.

“but she begs to be remembered as Regina and not the evil queen!” - Regina apologists

So? She didn’t want the kid she illegally adopted and abused to see her as the monster she was. It doesn’t mean she wasn’t a monster. It doesn’t mean that moments later she would have let them all die if given the chance.

And just to be fair, I do not count Rumple giving his heart to Fook and destroying Fumple an act of heroism either. Rumple had put Henry in jeopardy for his quest to die and join Belle in the afterlife. We know everything Rumple has ever done, aside from kill his own father, has been an act of selfishness. Therefore, it is my opinion based on his past actions, that if Belle had been alive then it wouldn’t have happened.

Therefore, Killian’s bravery in Season 5 far outweighs anything Regina ever did. And Rumple cancelled out his own act of heroism in S3 by pulling all the crap he did afterwards. All hail the real Once Upon a Time Villain to Hero: Killian Jones!

Blog Quote:: “He was not as bad as Regina - not because she was eviler than him - but because he never got the chance.“

But didn’t this blogger just get done saying their crimes were similar? Never mind the idiocy of this. Imagine applying this to anything else?

“We can’t call this murderer more evil than this violent criminal because this violent criminal just didn’t get the chance to kill anyone like that murderer!” SAY WHAT? You judge them by what they’ve done not on “what they could have done”. Goodness! I swear where do Evil Regals pull this bullshit from?

Killian was 200-300 years old. I think he’d have found “the time” to be “eviler” if he really was. But he wasn’t. We’ve only witnessed a handful of Killian’s murders and some we haven’t seen he openly admits to. If the show wanted us to believe he was as evil as Regina and Rumple then his heart would have been as black as theirs.

Regina was in her late 40’s (https://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/final-timeline-and-ages/) when the curse broke and her death tole rivaled Rumple’s who is also somewhere between 200-300 years old (Hades, S5). Regina had less time but did more evil on a far grander scale than Killian did in all 300 years of his existence. That alone makes her more evil.

So a little recap: Yes, they both killed their fathers. Yes, they both murdered one of Emma’s grandparents. Yes, their evil deeds were spurred by revenge. If you look at just the surface then the premise that Killian Jones is a male version of Regina Mills may be accurate. But if you look a little further you see there are not only significant differences but that Killian Jones comes out looking a hell of a lot better with a more complete character evolution.

Killian’s Change vs Regina’s

As I briefly mentioned in my opening, this is where the blogger pulls the “child-parent love is the only path to redemption” nonsense. Now, this blogger isn’t the first, or maybe they were the first, but I have heard this sentiment not only from Evil Regals but from the KnightRook fandom as well. Since they believe that Wish Hook abandoning his daughter to go get drunk and plot murder and rape (and none of that ever being addressed) is good enough to make him father of the year and claim his five second redemption complete.

It’s honestly 100% completely false.

The only things you need for a character redemption are:

Taking responsibility for your actions without blaming others

apologizing to your victim

showing a change of heart

learning from your mistakes

remedy the situation if possible

and in the terms of a fictional world where we’re talking about magic, murder and other heinous crimes the villain MUST:

Make a sacrifice for the greater good. That means something beyond the character’s immediate loved ones or something that would benefit them.

All of this can happen without the love of a child. Though I will say, love of some kind usually plays a part.

So between Regina and Killian, which one checked off all or most of this list? Killian Jones.

1. Taking Responsibility for your actions without blaming others

Regina blamed everyone else but herself! In fact, the evil queen becomes a separate entity to blame so Regina can become innocent of all wrong doings and get a happy ending. She may have admitted to “torture and unspeakable things” but the times she outright blames others for her actions without owning up outweighs maybe the two times she mentions it. Especially since when she mentions her deeds its when she’s crying about her happy ending. So, no, I am sorry, Regina never owned her mistakes, never had a moment where she expressed deep regret for her victims and never came to a realization that she really doesn’t deserve anything.

There isn’t a single time throughout the course of this show where Killian blames someone else for what he has done. He owned up to his part in taking Milah away from Rumple and their son. Blames himself for what Gold had him do. He has come clean about where his rings come from. It took him a moment to face his demons but he did come to the realization that he needed to face David. There was the phone call to Emma in s4. He doesn’t even blame Emma for his weakness at being unable to fight the darkness at first. He doesn’t even blame the darkness but his own weakness! There are times he might have been ashamed which is human but he never blames his deeds as if someone else was responsible.

Killian: 1

Regina: 0

2. Apologizing to your Victim

Killian Jones apologized to Ariel, Ursula, Belle, David, and Emma.

Regina’s serum half apologized to Snow but that was after some of the evil had been drained from her heart. And no, I do not count the time Regina apologized to Belle to get Belle to do something for her.

Killian: 2 Regina: 0

3. Remedy the situation

Killian Jones made things right with Ursula and then stood by Belle when she wanted refuge from Rumple. He dedicated time to help saving the fairies after he fell victim to Gold (something he blames himself for and not Gold). He also tried to make things right with Neal though Neal acted like a self-righteous ass just like his father. Sorry pal but he who sends underage girlfriend to jail for your crimes then yells at her when she didn’t immediately tell you you had a son puts you on my “asshole” list! Killian’s other victims were long since gone but we at least know he’d make amends if he could.

Regina still owns a whole vault full of hearts and I am going to once again say she let the Charmings sacrifice for her in S6! Did she ever even do anything for Maleficent? I don’t think she did! And she certainly never helped Belle. Maybe you could count the Season 3 curse she casts but really she had no other choice so I can’t in good conscious give that one to her. Nor the thing at the well in S2 since that was Henry’s doing. Really what did she remedy that wasn’t for her own personal gain?

Killian: 3 Regina: 0

4. Showing a change of heart

We have Killian Jones literally taking pages out of Emma’s book and a whole episode of him talking David out of revenge. He becomes a Dark One with all of this power yet he gives it up and never seeks it again. He is tortured in the Underworld and refuses to even write the name of his life long enemy. Gone are his wise cracks, sexual innuendo and much of his bravado. Past S4a we see a much more humble Killian Jones that is reluctant to even call himself a hero.

Regina does stop murdering people but I can’t give her this one either. Why you might ask? She says so herself that she hates doing good which to me means she has not had a true change of heart. She remains verbally abusive and looks down on others. She may no longer murder you if you tick her off but she does so figuratively with her words and actions.

Killian: 4 Regina: 0

5. Learning from your Mistakes

I think Killian shows that he has with the way he helps Emma and David. When Emma is angry with her parents over keeping the past from her, Killian is able to approach Emma in a way that portrays his familiarity with what they are feeling and knowing how to talk to Emma. Then you have his interactions with David in the S6 episode where David wants revenge on his father. Killian knows where seeking revenge leads you. And we know that he has learned enough to be very uncomfortable about keeping all of this from Emma.

Regina, Regina, Regina. Let me point right to Season 7 when she teaches Ivy dark magic and gives her mother’s evil book to Robyn. Its like she has literally learned nothing. But Regina really hasn’t had to learn from her mistakes because all of her mistakes were either erased (her abuse of Henry) or were blamed on others (Rumple, Snow, the book and the evil queen)

Killian: 5 Regina: 0

6. Making a Sacrifice for the Greater Good

Only Killian Jones sacrificed his life and was tortured to save everyone and the town by ending the darkness forever.

Killian: Hits every point. Regina: fell way behind.

Blog Quote: “Eventually, Regina became motivated to redeem herself because she wanted to. Even if she had nothing, she would still try to do the right thing. “

Why did she want to though? It wasn’t to “do the right thing”. She hated doing the right thing. Her motivation was to keep Henry and to get a happy ending. The moment she sent her lover and his “wife” across the town line she sought out to get what she felt she deserved: her story re-written. She didn’t even pause to consider that she in fact didn’t deserve that at all. And her goal was never to become a better person. It was not to make things right with her victims. It was for herself. This is evident because she keeps her vault of hearts and continues to treat all of the other characters as lesser than her. The character has no growth! Except to “stop murdering”. That was it!

Aside from sending the Hoods across the town line, I can’t think of another moment Regina “tried to do good even when she had nothing”? This blog gave no instances. Does the blogger mean at the town line in S3? When Regina had to or be cursed herself? Don’t care! When else? She didn’t do it when the Charmings were facing her serum half. She didn’t do the right thing in S4 when she was treating Emma like crap and blaming Emma for what she herself caused. So I am at a loss here.

Blog Quote: “we learned that Regina had other reasons for her villainy. One reason for Regina's evil actions developed after she became evil. The bigger villain Regina became, the more hopeless she felt.”

Honestly when? All of this is stated without an ounce of proof. Regina’s only motive was to kill Snow, destroy lives & get her own HEA. That’s it. Regina didn’t want to change. Not until all she had left was Henry and Henry rejected her. Regina straight out denied her evil past was her fault.

DEBUNKING RANDOM TALKING POINTS

aka stuff that isn’t backed up by any kind of evidence whatsoever that I found sprinkled through this article.

EXCUSING CHILD ABUSE

Blog quote: "Furthermore, Regina never regretted the terrible things she did, but for a unique, complex reason. She could not regret anything because she learned how to love again when she adopted her son, Henry."

That’s got the be the biggest puke worthy Regina Exemption Clause ever & it’s not what she said or showed.

Blog Quote: “He is a vital key component to Regina's complexity, demonstrating the lengths mothers go for their children.”

Sooo gaslighting them, isolating them & trying to murder their child’s loved ones is great lengths and a great showing of love? Really? That’s what we’re going with?

Using Fanon to excuse Regina

Blog Quote: “Regina's abuse rounded out her character & helped us understand her more. With Killian, the show writers may as well have never said anything because it barely made a difference.“

Killian was a CHILD SLAVE. Regina grew up a privileged princess. Did Cora abuse 26ish old Regina? Yes. Does that excuse what she became? No. Does that mean she was more developed? No. It doesn't. Regina is in fact not well rounded at all because we're simply told she is redeemed without her ever having to do anything to earn that redemption.

Blog Quote: “we learned that Regina had other reasons for her villainy. One reason for Regina's evil actions developed after she became evil. The bigger villain Regina became, the more hopeless she felt.”

Honestly when? All of this is stated without an ounce of proof. Regina’s only motive was to kill Snow, destroy lives & get her own HEA. That’s it. Regina didn’t want to change. Not until all she had left was Henry and Henry rejected her. Regina straight out denied her evil past was her fault.

USING ALLEGED POPULARITY AS A MEASURING TOOL

Blog Quote: Regina was the highlight of OUAT. Many viewers and critics say that she carried the show on her back

So because some fan wrote some biased drivel on a fan submitted TV “news” site… it’s a fact? Articles from Screen Rant do not reflect the general audience.

Let’s follow with this fact: Regina had the most screen time from S4-S7ep12. The show was cancelled that first half of Season 7. Do the math.

If Regina carried it then she’s responsible for those numbers and could not keep the show afloat once CaptainSwan and Snowing were gone. The show FAILED with her as a lead.

Now maybe if Regina had left and CaptainSwan had stayed the same thing would have happened. But you can’t point to fan biased articles and loud obnoxious twitter users as being representative of live audience views. Did you poll the audience? I think not.

The fact is that CaptainSwan is still being talked about today. Long after the show has ended there are still articles being generated about Emma Swan and Killian Jones both separately and together. Most of these are also fan generated but some aren’t. It is my belief judging by the content we see being produced that general audiences tend to gravitate more towards real heroes like Emma Swan, good hearted pirates like Killian Jones and love stories like CaptainSwan that show how far two people are willing to go for each other. Emma Swan and Killian Jones were a much bigger draw for your average audience viewer than Regina who spent most of the time crying about her own happiness (which is disgusting when you think about the magnitudes of her crimes).

ERROR. ERROR. ERROR.

Blog Quote: He descended into darkness after watching Rumplestiltskin crush Milah's -- his true love -- heart 

I already touched on his descent into darkness but I just had to come back to this glaring error.

I am sorry I missed the part where the show stated Milah was Killian’s true love? Or even Rumple’s?

Daniel wasn’t Regina’s either.

And this right here is probably why you can throw all of their opinions here into the trash. You can’t get that one thing right so what else did you get wrong?

WHO STRUGGLED THE MOSTEST!???

Blog quote: “We never saw him struggle with his choices.”

Yes, yes we did. Season 4 was an entire struggle for him. He also showed regret when he slipped (the phone call to Emma, him trying to free the fairies, his shame over not helping Ariel, regret over keeping the scissors in s6, shame over how he handled finding out he killed David’s father).

When did Regina struggle? Hell, she’d have re-killed Marian if she thought she could’ve gotten away with it! Whenever Regina does something wrong something or someone else always gets the blame for it.

BELIEVABLE? LIKABLE?

Blog Quote: “Regina Mills is a far more believable character than Killian Jones could ever be.“

She is 100% unlikable. She wasn’t believable as a redeemed hero. She never answered for Graham & continued to be a jerk…

This piece spends a whole lot of time on how quickly Killian & Emma fell in love… but makes no mention how fast the Charmings forgave the woman that ruined their lives? And all she had to do to earn that forgiveness was admit she’s a sociopath that didn’t regret anything! How is that believable? It isn't.

GET A NEW ARGUMENT ALREADY THIS ONE HAS BEEN DEBUNKED!

Blog Quote: “Killian admitted that he purposely intoxicates women to sleep with them.”

THAT WAS NEVER SAID! People need to stop inserting words into that moment. Emma didn’t take his line to mean he was a rapist. She didn’t even flinch. Furthermore, drinking with women isn’t a crime!

TOXIC FRIENDSHIP IS THE BESTEST!

Blog Quote: “Hook and Emma would have been a far more satisfying relationship if they had developed their friendship in between, the way Emma and Regina had.”

What friendship? Regina treated Emma like crap! And did this person miss all of S3? Emma calling Killian for help, their adventure to the past … etc. etc.

KILLIAN'S REDEMPTION DOES NOT COUNT BECAUSE IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE ABOUT EMMA

The above occurred during the twitter conversation I had with the person who wrote the hit piece on Killian.

So because you think an arc was supposed to be about Emma you think you can just toss what happened aside? It doesn’t work like that. Whether you like what happened or not it still happened. And that right there is another prime example of why this piece is biased. You can’t toss out facts simply because you don’t like them then write some nonsense and say its all fact based. It clearly isn’t!

After saying everything I’ve said above I leave you with this final thought:

Between Regina and Killian, Killian was the only one to receive a complete redemption arc and possibly the only one that could since Regina’s crimes were beyond heinous. So the fact that the show tried to say she is redeemed without showing her redemption actually makes her the Walmart version of a villain to hero. Why is that? They thought she was too popular to kill off and killing her off was the only way for an unrepentant child abusing mass murdering rapist that never showed remorse or apologized and continued to be a bully gets any kind of redemption. She had to die for the greater good. But she didn’t.