#fundy's dream plot

[rat-rosemary]

......I thought c!Dream would be the character I would see get the most mischracterizied but holy shit. Please shut the fuck up. You have not watched a single C!Fundy lore stream.

You think that if C!Fundy went back in time he would be against Dream? He would want a relationship with his family? Fundy who KILLED HIMSELF IN FRONT OF WILBUR so Wilbur would never try to talk to him again?

None of the sbi ever treated Fundy like family or like his feeling should ever be considered, and you think Fundy wants to go back to them? To a past and even worse version of them? After he, again, went no-contact by KILLING HIMSELF IN FRONT OF HIS FATHER? Fuck off

[blorbobingus]

totally random

but im currently thinking about how painfully UNFINISHED c!fundy’s whole dream arch was because that shit could’ve been SO GOOD but it all happened around that time the server was on a decline, therefore being left unfinished, right where it started

the fucking agony

[bleue-flora]

This man is the villain, everyone…

yeah…… makes sense.

(When they wonder why you’re a Dream apologist… - Oh, my apologies, that’s right, I’m supposed to root for the scammer, who’s the hero of the story…)

[appleflavoredkitkats]

you ever think abt the fundy's mind stream . like there's sm secrets we never got answers to

[aro-throughyourchest]

imagine if the dream smp was a podcast. it starts out as a series of recordings from one "wilbur soot" in his process of starting a new country l'manburg and slowly gains narrators like Niki, Eret, and Tommy until it's an ensemble. Everyone's favorite episode is the only one Schlatt's ever recorded (not for any plot related reason, quite frankly it’s the least tangential of all.) Fundy never records one but is frequently mentioned and Jack recorded like a couple times but his always have like the least amount of people who listen.

the entirety of the exile arc is from tommy's point of view with tubbo occassionally recording episodes in between (like four out of fifteen). out of the arc dream has a single episode. and what if everyone's were sort of diaries and idle talking to themselves and Dream just starts fucking talking to you. Like holy shit right? You think he's talking to Punz but then he starts listing the episode number they're on and whose name is attached. And every time Dream narrates an episode, he's talking to you. He's describing his hands covered in blood and an eerily quiet cell after an episode where Tommy narrates and the next episode is Jack telling everyone Dream beat Tommy to death.

the podcast just stops airing one day, btw. the creators have a really long twitlonger about how scheduling conflicts happen and people got busier but they would love to keep doing it one day. then a bunch of people get outed as terrible, so the series never has a chance to come back.

[cearthduo]

i hate when people frame tommy's attempt during exile as purposeful on dream's side. like... you know that wasn't his goal, right??? like you do know that? it's important to me that you know that. also it wasn't only dream's actions that drove him to that point. it was also tubbo's and fundy's and quackity's and everyone else's who didn't care enough to visit him because they perceived life as easier without his meddling (which, in tubbo's defence, it absolutely was!)

i just hate when people frame it like "oh yeah dream was totally trying to make that kid kill himself and he's the only reason for his mental decline in exile." because it's not true and it ignores all the other shit that was weighing on tommy during exile.

not to mention the reason tommy didn't commit was also because of dream, but! yk, we're not ready for that conversation.

the trend of blaming everything on dream instead of looking at the effects other characters have on each other really skews people's views of characters and it's the reason a lot of you miss obvious details and plot moments. you all look through the lense of "everyone is good except maybe one or two characters who fuck up on a large scale" and you miss out on the original "every character is gray and fucked up in their own way, but also good and pure too." concept that the smp was built on.

but what do i know.

edit for people who pretend not to know what im saying

[sumwan]

I'm not sure how many people know about this, but the entire script for the Green Festival was actually shown in Tommy's DSMP tribute video from last year. It seems to have been written by Dream (it mentions "I" at some point when referring to Dream), and it's pretty interesting to see how they planned out the lore streams and what changed in the actual streams.

Transcription can be found under the cut.

Transcription The festival is happening. Fundy, Tubbo, Quackity, Ranboo, Niki, and anyone else that is generally around lmanburg can attend. Everyone starts streaming early for the festival. Before the festival starts, Quackity Tubbo and Fundy (and ranboo? I'm not sure who was there originally), have a meeting about how they're going to kill Dream.

They talk about how Dream trusts Tubbo so Tubbo is going to have to be the one to do it. That they've become sort of friends since Tommy was exiled. Tubbo agrees, still slightly doubtful that it would work. Tubbo says that Dream agreed to show up with no armor to for the first time ever, honor lmanburgs laws.

The meeting ends and they start the festival, talking about how Dream said he would be a little late.

Tommy and Techno at this point have been planning how they're going to ruin the festival (and get back Tommy's disc from Dream). They know that Dream will show up, but they don't know how they'll fight him without him escaping. (Ranboo finds them on the outskirts of lmanburg and tells them that Dream agreed to show up in no armor? possibly?) That sparks that they can hide around lmanburg and ambush Dream when he's at the festival. Tommy and Techno improv and mess around while trying to build an "ambush spot" (all of this is sort of unimportant to the plot so can be adjusted to make funnier/better streams for those two).

Tommy and Techno start streaming about 30 minutes after the others.

After some festival activities have been done, Dream shows up in full armor, placing obsidian again in a wall formation. Everyone sees him and runs over confused about what's happening.

They hop in a call with dream (techno and tommy join too but tell eachother to be quiet before joining.) Dream starts screaming about what Tommy did and how he really screwed up this time (tommy is kind of afraid and is looking at techno for assurance), and everyone is confused about what Tommy did, especially tubbo. Dream yells about the fact that Tommy destroyed the community house, the longest standing structure on the server, and how he has to pay for it. Quackity and the others don't believe it and decide to go look with Dream. (Techno and Tommy follow stealthily behind (invis), no one should see them).

Sapnap and anyone else from the original Dream SMP can log on now or already be on and come over to see. (Awesam, Callahan, George(probably not), Sapnap, BadBoyHalo, Punz)

They stand in front of the shattered remains and everyone is shocked that Tommy would do this, and upset. Everyone is insisting that Tommy really screwed up and that it's horrible.

Tubbo agrees but insists that he and lmanburg had nothing to do with it. Dream says that as long as Tubbo has one of the discs, he has everything to do with Tommy. Tubbo seems shocked and thinks about what Dream said. All of the Dream SMP original members agree and are talking about how he should give it so they can burn it once and for all. Tubbo is reluctant but seems to agree that Tommy keeps doing things that would put lmanburg in danger, so he doesn't want association.

He seems like he is about to give the disc, so Tommy reveals himself (techno too) and gets into a screaming match with Tubbo about it.

--Tommy and tubbo fill in what happens here, but it's a big argument and fight probably mostly improv-

Eventually after both nearly dying, Tommy realizes that he's fighting his best friend and stops. Tubbo is angry and gives the disc quickly to Dream, saying that it's just a stupid disc. Tommy is hurt by that but realizes that he's been blinded and has lost friends because of it. Tommy realizes that Dream now has both of his discs, and that they're back at square one.

Dream has an evil speech about how Tubbo is an idiot and that he never should have given him the disc. That Tubbo was never the president of L'manburg, but that everyone else had more control than him of his own country, even Dream. That he's the worst president because he was no president at all. Expose Ranboo as a traitor that has been working with Techno and Tommy, and that he can't even keep control of his own people. Give Tubbo the book with proof. That l'manburg is weaker than it's ever been, and that the only thing stopping Dream from completely destroying l'manburg was the fact that Tubbo had the discs and so Dream had to befriend him.

Now there's nothing stopping Dream from completely obliterating l'manburg. Everyone seems shocked and tries to talk Dream down, but Dream screams and tells everyone to shut up. Everyone goes completely silent. Dream asks Techno if he has any withers left. Techno responds basically like "oh do III" because he has so many.

--Techno should add more here so he has more of a role-

Dream announces that tonight is the final night of l'manburg forever. That he and Techno will finish the job that Wilbur started, and that l'manburg will be blown all the way to bedrock at (TIME, the next day). He tells everyone to say their last goodbyes, and to not try and stop him because Techno and him will kill every last one of them.

Dream leaves.

Everyone is left in shock, (maybe techno has some funny monologue here like it's awkward that I just left him there with everyone or something)

No one knows what to say. They realize that Dream has gone completely insane and that he has to be stopped. (techno is gone by now) They realize that Dream made a mistake by telling them the time, and they decide that they will all plan to work together and stop them. If all of the server fights together they can beat Techno and Dream. They get hyped about it and Tommy and Tubbo agree to fight together, despite having 1 canon life, that they're willing to put their lives on the line for l'manburg. They kind of have a reunion.

--Possibly Tommy leaves or ends here?-

Quackity seems blood thirsty and wants to punish Ranboo for conspiring with them and being a traitor. Tubbo disagrees and Quackity and tubbo get into an argument, Quackity insists that he HAS to execute him because he was a traitor. Tubbo gets mad and flips out on Quackity insisting that he's not going to be like Schlatt and execute him next to his own festival decorations (call back), that they need to ALL be together, ALL of them, otherwise they will lose to Techno and Dream. As long as he agrees to fight, he will fight with them. Quackity still seems to disagree, Tubbo puts his foot down and mentions what Dream said. That everyone else always pushed him around, but no HE'S the president, and his word is final, anyone who goes against it is committing treason. Quackity reluctantly agrees, but says that what Tubbo said doesn't mean they can't deal with the traitors after they stop Techno and Dream.

-End of this stream-

Bullet points for Tommy-

Starts Stream a little after Tubbo and the others start.

Plan to go to l'manburg to ruin the festival

Show up at l'manburg, with lots of invis potions, investigate what's happening

Dream shows up, join VC secretly Hear Dream freak out about the community house, seem confused, follow them.

Once Tubbo seems like he's going to give up the disc, tommy interjects

Fight tubbo

Give up on fighting tubbo and realize that you're fighting your best friend

Listen to Dream evil speech

After Dream/Techno leaves, convince everyone to work together. Talk about putting your life on the line for l'manburg.

Bullet points for Techno-

Start Stream a little after Tubbo and the others start.

Plan to go to l'manburg to ruin the festival

Show up at l'manburg, with lots of invis potions, investigate what's happening

Dream shows up, join VC secretly Hear Dream freak out about the community house, seem confused, follow them.

Once Tubbo seems like he's going to give up the disc, tommy interjects

Fight tubbo

Give up on fighting tubbo and realize that you're fighting your best friend

Listen to Dream evil speech

Join in when Dream asks if you have withers, *whatever else you want here*

After Dream leaves, awkwardly leave and head back to your house

Dream is there and Techno & Dream briefly talk about what they're going to do, Techno shows Dream the wither room

Bullet points for l'manburg-

Start Stream a little before the festival

Have meeting with cabinet about killing Dream, how Tubbo should be the one to do it because he's trusted.

Start the festival, Dream said he would show up a little later.

Dream shows up in full armor and is building an obsidian wall.

Realize and run over pissed off. Join his VC (don't see tommy / techno)

Listen to Dream, then go see the community house

Be mad at Tommy

Tubbo fights with Tommy after almost giving up his disc

Fight ends, Tubbo gives the disc to Dream to end war

Listen to Dream evil speech

Ranboo was a traitor for Techno/Tommy

After Dream/Techno leaves, Tubbo and Tommy convince people to work together. They talk about putting their lives on the line for l'manburg.

Quackity wants Ranboo executed

Tubbo puts his foot down and insists that he will not be doing that, that he's president.

Bullet Points for original DreamSMP members:

After l'manburg and dream show up at the community house(it's blown up), show up and seem upset and distressed that it was blown up. That it was the oldest artifact on the server and it had a lot of memories.

Follow Dream's lead, mostly agreeing with what he says.

Once Dream brings up the disc that Tubbo has, insist that it be burned and turned over by Tubbo.

Once Tubbo turns over the disc, Dream gives and evil speech

Realize that Dream is taking it too far and l'manburg's a part of history and is a free country

Follow Tommy/Tubbo's lead, talk about how you guys can stop Dream and Techno if you all work together

[suenitos]

I need someone to explain the !cdnf lore to me 😔

oh my godddddd how do i even go about this... so much of this is like you had to be there but i'll try my best ok. here are some things that helped me tremendously while writing:

cdnf manifesto (pretty much all cdnf moments compiled into one document with streams attached)

some cdnf moments

cdnf is an interesting case because it kinda emerged a little bit before the time the separation between Lore (plot) and Real Life officially happened (in my opinion this is when dream put out the please use c! to refer to our characters tweet) where a lot of the fandom attitude towards rpf was still being kinda weirded out by it, so a lot of people were drawing dnf "as a dare"/"because i lost a bet" and infamously "only shipping the minecraft skins" slash characters. previous to this/around the time of fundy's wedding video there was no real culture surrounding shipping most characters in a serious immersive way according to the story really up until the election and around the november 16 event. everything earlier than the explicitly described roleplay is kinda shaky at best in being considered canon, except for the kingdom line where cdream tells cgeorge that he will be the next king once they take back the land from lmanburg. theres also someee moments where theyre protective of each other during this war as cgeorge had always been on the side of the americans, kinda like irl which is a common theme in why a lot of people find this relationship fascinating. like. the rituals. we were still in dreams "straight" arc mind you.

a lot of the canon relationship relies mostly on the protective knight and king dynamic around late 2020 in which cdream crowns cgeorge king after he deems him more neutral to every conflict going on in canon over ceret, because of the running joke that irl george slept through every major event and he was building a mushroom house during the november 16 event. the big thing to remember about george is he wasnt super into the rp as much as dream was and we didnt see a ton of designated lore streams from him as a result, leading him to incorporate his sleepy/inactive nature as part of his character to sort of "excuse" him from a lot of the plot and from interacting with other characters. this was later though, but during the time of king/knight cdream was shown to be very protective of cgeorge and doing things like buying him flowers in secret (this was before fundy wedding was retconned but i still consider this one canon), stealing back his fish beckerson from cquackity i believe, and going to war against lmanburg and building obsidian walls surrounding the place AND exiling ctommy BECAUSE ctommy and co burned down cgeorge's house he built before becoming king. at the time people did read that as cdream using cgeorge as an excuse to do build walls and enact exile but i like to read it romantically i think thats more fun.

but as the person who created the server along with dream he was bound to have one of the most important relationships to him no matter what. after a while though, cdream dethroned cgeorge to re-crown ceret as cgeorge was starting to align himself with cquackity, csapnap, and ckarl in making a new independent nation that wasnt lmanburg, dsmp, or the badlands named el rapids (making him no longer the most neutral of the server) and this is the moment cdnf (and cdteam really) kinda split up for good in a way. do remember the reason this even happened is ALLEGEDLY because george irl wasnt super into the lore and dream gave him an out through lore, yet he underestimated the DRAMAAAA george would give as his character which led to a way more compelling story/narrative surrounding dethronement as cdream's complete betrayal of both cgeorge and csapnap to focus on other matters like ctommy or whatever. sadly, no more cdnf proper after this that doesnt come in the form of crumbs/mentions from other characters (such as two times csapnap confronting cdream and mentioning george to which cdream has very Normal responses) or dreams that dubiously affect real life (in canon) but cdream does what he does and cgeorge moves to kinoko kingdom with csapnap and ckarl. but honestly i think the most tragic part of dethronement was probably the fact it was on quackity's stream tbh 😒

the first time dreamxd showed up on the server was during george's tiktok banned me stream due to the fact cdream was in prison canonically but dream still wanted to play with george on the server on the rare occasion he got on, and this was the only stream that featured dream voicing dreamxd without filters, because it was a semi rushed decision. this stream could technically be considered the first cgeorge dream presented to us, but the concept that george's lore streams were dreams came one stream later featuring cniki and cbad as well. anyway this stream is kinda technically not canon because dnf and quackity were rping george getting banned from tiktok so its very much Not lore in that sense but it again featured a lot of dream being protective of george, "betraying" him and groveling and george acting sad and crying irl on command. rituals. ONE MORE THING TO ADD ABOUT THE PRISON THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT: cdream is captured and put into prison before this stream as previously said, but almost EVERY SINGLE character is there to watch EXCEPT cgeorge. meaning, he may have been in deep sleep at this point. HOWEVER, he never visits the prison ONCE in canon. more on this later.

anyway the next stream features some interesting implications about cdream and dreamxd's connection like are they two separate entities? are they split from a singular entity? can cdream take over dreamxd's body temporarily or is it dreamxd mimicing his voice and body (dream was using the same skin for both). also, dreamxd had access to creative mode which led many to characterize him as a god of the server and dream incorporated that into his character as a result, but also that he's a massive fucking simp for cgeorge in giving him items he asks for which again. rituals. this is the stream where cgeorge and dreamxd become friends forever as well.

but before explaining the last lore stream george ever did and also some stuff that happened after on cdream's side, there are also things to address regarding symbols and things that just made cdnf's relationship a lot closer than the others. for example, the wooden pickaxes they left in the nether near the beginning of the server's birth that philza eventually found and eret put in a museum. another is their literal child nugget (this one is a stretch tbh but it makes me smile) a chicken that george had in dream's room during the construction of the community house before a sewer ran through it :/ this one is purely me in that i also consider tnt to be a symbol of both cdnf in that cdream uses it a lot and cgeorge uses it to blow up the world in his last stream, and they both use it to blow up cquackity's las nevadas sign both in the dream and in canon. but the most important one of all is The Shield.

this damn. motherfucking shield. with a blue field masoned banner. was somehow the longest running symbol surrounding cdnf. i have gone to bed sick over this shield. a brief timeline about it: the first time we saw it was when cdream had it equipped during the obsidian lmanburg wall incident and cgeorge famously saying "im not going to be hurt if dream's next to me". cdream doesnt show up again with it to my knowledge but CGEORGE has it during the lil nas x stream (cdream in prison) during which he gets killed and lil nas x briefly equips it before karl gets it back to george near the end/after the stream. we never saw cdream give him this shield, it's kinda maybe implied that he gave it based on the fact its the same design?? who knows. later, the shield gets stolen by sapnap during another dream (this was during george's first year anniversary stream) featuring dream! where he dreams that cdream left prison and joined cgeorge csapnap cbad and ckarl on a tour of the server and kinoko. karl steals it back from csapnap during sapnap's stream with drista in secret, and manages to get it BACK to george MANY MONTHS LATER after an mcc and time travel shenanigans without sapnap knowing. george is GENUINELY happy about this damn shield and puts it in his enderchest, nearly freaking out when cpunz kills him and he thinks he lost it. super normal behavior. anyway. interlude over back to the last stream.

cgeorge's i blew up the dream smp deserved an oscar. seriously. masterclass in acting and streaming. the key point to remember from earlier here is cgeorge had NEVER visited the prison, but a specific moment from quackity's forming las nevadas stream revealed him standing outside the prison, looking inside, before cquackity got his attention, so he was clearly thinking about visiting, yet never had the courage or will to see him again. anyway this stream's inciting incident is cgeorge noticing no one is on the server and encounters cdream LEAVING the prison. they have a confrontation in which cdream asks cgeorge to join him or else he destroys kinoko. he kills cgeorge. after beating ctechno And cdream, cgeorge goes on a destruction spree and also kills cquackity ckarl and ccallahan before finally killing god aka dreamxd, his last link to cdream/humanity. that sequence where he fights him is oddly flirty. anyway he then goes on to go to the End and almost kills the dragon to rule over a world of nothing except.. it was all a dream. cgeorge ends the stream furious. this is the last we ever see of cgeorge.

meanwhile cdream gets taunted of cgeorge on various occasions: with csapnap, with cbad, and at the end with ctommy. one of the signs he has listing his plans has the name george on it, discovered by ctommy and ctubbo before they go defeat him. during the finale, ctommy goes into limbo and sees/hears cdnf during dream's FIRST dsmp stream before he abandoned showing his pov and convinces cdream destroying the world isnt the way before everyone blows up from the nuke L. thats the end of canon before "season 2" which. lets not get into that but them also dying to the dragon when the official end to the dsmp stream happened was really cute :( and its very poetic to note that irl dnf started this insaneeee phenomenon an ocean away and ended it all together in the same house in LA :(

last notes: dream fucking ADORED this ship so much that when he held a fanfic contest (dnf barely being accepted by the mods but allowing lore fics) he chose a cgeorge-centric cdnf fic as the winner. he liked so much fanart of it, and he particularly liked dreamxd and cgeorge fanart. he also accidentally revealed two google searches during one of his geoguessr streams which were "georgenotfound dream smp wiki" and "georgenotfound dream SMP king short story wattpad". okay man. protip ao3 is better for inspiration but whatever. but lets also not discount george here as he was also a freak and liked the famouss king/knight fanart of their characters near kissing and replied "hot" before people really took the concept of cdnf or any shipping super seriously. now, you can debate whether he meant that seriously or as a joke, but based on his streams if you were to find anything to ship, you seriously could not do that with anyone other than dream in either his cdream or dreamxd form unless you were looking to break up ckarlnapity in some way but those ships were less popular, probably because of irl dnf's real life chemistry. cdream is another story but thats not the focus here, though i wont deny there isnt grounding for a lot of other popular cdream ships, which is fine.

over time, dnf became incredibly close as friends and as a duo, and in terms of fandom developments, over the course of 2021 leading into 2022, shipping dnf as real people and not the pseudo heatwaves/accelerate/minecraft skins image of them became much more popularized. as dnf grew closer they did less streams in lore and their real life dynamic became a lot more interesting the closer the face reveal became. but in a way, in my opinion, the lore streams were a way for dnf in particular to sort of deal with their situation due to covid and dream's inability to go outside and do shit, in a sense the prison arc kinda symbolizes dream's irl situation though thats likely not the case. but a lot of their dynamic shone through in their characters via dream being very protective of george and george caring about him in his own way/being kinda obsessed with him in general.

overall, i think the best part of this ship is just how founded on delusion, crumbs, and denial from the fans it was yet how surprisingly supported it was by dnf themselves over time as the server became super mega BONKERS insanely popular??? like it is genuinely one of the only actual canon slash r ships in the story, moreso implied than anything else but holding much more water than something like ckarlnapity in the end which is CRAZY. the imagery and inspiration that came out of the ship was incredible and yet its still a very tragic story in canon that doesnt actually truly get resolved (i like to imagine season 2 fixed this). however in the end, although cdnf didnt get a happy ending, irl dnf did, in meeting/living with each other and officially shedding off this wild part of their life and career as characters in a story coping with their real life circumstances, to living life to the fullest physically together and happy. :)

[tobi-smp]

absolutely nobody wants to see me rant about the end of the dream smp for one millionth time in october 2023, but the anniversary has people talking on my dash so now I'm infected with one of the same 4 thoughts I always have about the dream smp

obviously there is a Very Very large number of reasons that people have a complicated relationship with the dream smp, both in universe and out. and the worst for me are the Obvious out of universe reasons that don't need to be repeated here.

but the cake for In Universe reasons is definitely still the crimeboys ending. it was the final nail in the coffin for me back when I hadn't realized that the coffin had any more nails it could take in the first place, and it's a big part of why the parts of the series that I Do very much so enjoy are very often painful to look back on.

and this isn't because wilbur is a bad writer or a bad actor (or tommy for that matter), even at the time I had Really enjoyed the lead up to the end, even and Especially in that final stream sending wilbur off.

I had my issues of course, I haven't exactly been quiet about that, but in retrospect I Understand the circumstances much better and respect wilbur's choice to get out of there as cleanly as possible.

we still don't know Exactly what was happening behind the scenes, including and Especially with dream, but we Do know full well that dream stopped interacting with the entire rest of the server leaving countless story lines (that he'd Intentionally made himself integral to) left to dry with no way to move forwards while they waited for interaction that would never ever come.

wilbur's choice to move forwards with his send off of his character on his own terms, even with and especially Because of the clear scheduling issues, was the smartest decision he could have made considering the circumstances. I would very much so argue that his character is the Only One that got sent off with any amount of dignity largely Because he stopped playing dream's little game. and I do have to wonder if wilbur escaping the narrative wasn't inspired more by the real life circumstances at the time.

but no matter how satisfying I find it, no matter how much Good I see in it, no matter how much I respect and agree with the choice to do it, I cannot think about wilbur's ending without a Deep ache.

and it is for one single reason

he left tommy behind on purpose, this time fully with the knowledge of the situation he was leaving him behind In.

the abandonment that characters like tommy, niki, and fundy felt after the 16th are ultimately understandable ways of dealing with grief, but weren't Fair to truly hold against wilbur. wilbur didn't Leave, he didn't make the decision to allow the people important to him to be hurt in his absence. he committed suicide because he was sad.

wilbur getting on that boat, truly Knowing what dream did to tommy in a way that only tommy and dream knew, and leaving tommy alone on that beach affected me in ways that nothing else on the server ever has. and that truly is not a good thing.

now, I Think that what was likely supposed to happen is that dream was Supposed to interact with tommy regularly after the prison escape, and that that was supposed to build up to Some natural conclusion. we don't know what that conclusion would have been, but it was certainly nothing like what we got. and meanwhile wilbur's final arc was supposed to progress along side it, building Up To the logsted stream and his full understanding of the abuse dream had done and the affect it had on tommy.

we Know that at one point tommy had spoken about having a soft ending with wilbur. and After wilbur's ending actually did happen he'd mentioned that he might cameo on the server from time to time. that sounds like a soft ending to me.

it makes thematic sense, it makes sense with the pieces we got leading up to the final stream, it makes sense with the characters. and it couldn't happen, because dream refused to move any plot forwards and tommy of all characters couldn't move on without dream. again, both Thematically and because of what was happening behind the scenes.

and this is. frustrating beyond reason. that the snot genuinely poisoned one of the best aspects of the entire server because he was actively killing it but still didn't want to let go.

you can call it speculation, and it is, but this is what I believe and will continue to believe until tommy or wilbur say otherwise.

and on paper I just want to be able to say that the things that I don't like about the ending are bad because dream forced them to be bad and therefore I can just pretend like they never happened and substitute canon's reality with my own (or at the very least excuse it for being the way that it is).

and I have tried to do that ! both in chewing on the ending on its own terms And in imagining many Many ways that it could have gone differently (an activity I'm quite fond of regardless of circumstance).

but it just !

in a completely biased and nevertheless Extremely Honest word, hurt my feelings.

I cannot stop thinking about how they Intentionally set up wilbur finding out about dream abusing tommy, Made Sure to cover every base so the audience Knows that wilbur knows that it was physical, mental, and emotional abuse, Knows that wilbur is fully aware that tommy almost committed suicide, and Knows that wilbur was Deeply Emotionally Affected By This Fact.

and then had him leave. had him Plan Possibly Months Ahead Of Time. had him try to sneak off, only telling tommy the truth when he caught him by surprise and forced it out of him.

tommy opened up to somebody about exile in real honest terms for the very first time, to one of the people that he trusted the most, and that person Chose to leave him trapped with that very abuser out to get him Even Though he understood the danger and cared about him very deeply.

he knew that tommy was in danger, he knew Why tommy was in danger, and him leaving tommy behind was pre-meditated.

and it's Painful not just because of what it implies about their relationship As A Whole (because it's impossible to accept this as true without it affecting how we look back on what came before), but because those same implications makes it Impossible to imagine their relationship having a future.

people tried to play it off like a Soft Ending, like wilbur was just going to get therapy and then come back and they were just gonna hug it out and have a nice healthy relationship. and to be fair to those people, none of us could have predicted that tommy was going to be bombed and then reincarnated with none of his memories. that was Not in my predictions for the next phase of his character arc.

but, shitty sequel bait ending that everyone who cares has disavowed aside (way aside, into a deep pit to never be seen again), if I were tommy I would feel unimaginably betrayed.

where they left off is Not a place to reconnect with a healthy relationship when they're ready, because This Was A Traumatizing Event In And Of Itself.

I don't have to prove this, c!tommy proved this himself when started holing up in his house and abusing potions of invisibility both because he feels completely and totally Unsafe walking anywhere on the server when people can see him And as a relapse back into potion addiction reminiscent of his addiction post-exile.

he was at his absolute lowest point, his abuser and murderer escaped from prison ready to torment him and everyone he cares about for Literally forever. he was Desperately trying to find any form of stability, Desperately trying to reach out to for anyone he could trust, and he Intentionally opened up to someone he Did trust completely once. someone who made him feel safe, someone he trusted with his entire life.

he opened up Because he wanted that relationship, Because he wanted wilbur in his life, Because wilbur had wanted Him in His life. he wanted to cross that gap between them. he was making himself vulnerable to Extend that trust To wilbur.

and wilbur stopped talking to him for months and then left.

that's not going to do good things to his mental health or stability. tommy was Already displayed active suicidal tendencies BEFORE dream broke out of prison.

if he'd managed to kill dream for good and the characters went about their lives tommy would have to let wilbur go. rationalizing what happened, justifying wilbur's decision, would not be healthy.

he can accept that wilbur made the right decision for Himself. he can accept that Wilbur needed to leave, that Wilbur needed time to himself.

but tommy clinging on to wilbur's memory, justifying that he was left for dead with his abuser On Purpose, would not be healthy.

tommy would Need to realize that what happened wasn't okay. there Is no going back to having a relationship with wilbur. wilbur was Allowed to make the choice he did, but it Was a choice.

I can't bare to think of the alternative. where tommy is abandoned, deeply damaged by that abandonment, has to face his abuser and murderer Without someone he'd once considered a brother, and then turn around and just answer wilbur's call the moment Wilbur decides he's ready to have a relationship again.

that would just. be sad. genuinely awful.

and I can't let that go. the decisions they made were Sensible, I can see how it was necessary for wilbur to Have a proper send off when he did. there's no Satisfying way to re-imagine this series of events without it not Being the end.

but it tried to depict itself As a soft ending, As the characters having a future together, when it simply is not. if wilbur escaped the narrative then he left the people he cared about to be victims of the narrative Knowingly.

and it's frustrating Because I can see how it'd happen by accident. How the implications would be both meticulously set up and gone completely unseen.

but for my money, if I were to fix it on its own terms. with no additional screen time after, no change in the streams leading up to the end, and the understanding that tommy's story could not end at this point by necessity (the same restrictions that they had at the time)

I would have wilbur ask tommy to come with him. I'd have the reveal be that wilbur wanted to take tommy with him The Entire Time but knew that tommy was stubborn and attached to the server. but the moment he understood Exactly How Bad It Was he knew he needed to get them out of there Now.

so he did his best to hold dream off for now, and Immediately went to work setting up their escape (we don't need to understand How the portal to utah works, just that it took some time to set up).

it would recontextualize some of their earlier interactions, it would recontextualize his absence after the logsted stream, and it would recontextualize why wilbur didn't tell him until now.

and of course, because tommy has to stay (and because tommy is tommy) he refuses. he refuses not because he doesn't Want to go with wilbur (he wants to be with him more than anything, he wants to feel safe more than anything). but because he can't abandon the people on the server, because he can't let go until he knows dream is gone, because he will never ever feel safe until dream is dead.

and it can be a big dramatic blow out that Ends with that quiet awkward understanding, not with the characters being emotionally in sync but Knowing that this is how this moment has to play out. that same melancholy, that same understand that a choice is being made that can't go back, But It's Mutual.

It's Mutual And Born From Love.

because wilbur Wanted to save tommy, because tommy Wanted wilbur to stay, because they both understand why things aren't happening that way.

and they'll still be Hurt after. their relationship will still be impacted. this will still be something to Work Through rather than the magic soft fix that will make their relationship healthy and fluffy again.

but it's Fixable. if tommy survives there's a relationship still in tact to build on. there's a future where they both trust each other again one day, to find comfort and stability in each other. to put in the Work to build a life once the horror finally ends.

of course, if I had a say a lot more than this would've been changed. but it's a thought that plagues me because of how plausibly it Could have been what we'd gotten. because it would have worked without changing anything and it still would have hurt me at the time but it would have been the Good hurt. not a goodbye forever but goodbye until I can see you again. Goodbye And I Love You.

(at least until tommy got exploded with a bomb and forgot that wilbur existed. yippie)

[misty-doodles]

Now, to start, we'll need to talk about L'manburg history and how it works within the Rewind timeline. I'm tweaking the world slightly. I've made the executive decision that the DSMP is a server of hundreds of people who live within the server.

This will add weight to Dream's actions.

Now

EARLY L'MANBURG 

From the signing of the Independence papers to The selections is about 6-ish months, of which Dream is entirely removed from the politics of the server.

With Eret never betraying Wilbur and co, he's still considered a L-Manburg citizen, although he isn't the biggest fan of Wilbur for being willing to involve the kids or his plot to force an election win

Bad gets permission from the DTeam to continue to have the Badlands and have KT formerly recognized, although it's not an independent country 

Because he's more concerned with Dream, George will never initially team up with Qackity. Instead he teams up with Schlatt off the bat and they get married shortly before the election. 

Schlatt, of course, ends up winning, and instead of Tubbo, he chooses Eret as his cabinet working as secretary of state, whole Tubs floats around the white house

MANBURG ERA 

This will last for once whole year, of which Dream is even more removed than prior. He will occasionally visit the city and at this point the server will begin opening more to citizens. 

Schlatt is more or less the same as in canon, very cruel and shit, and exiling Wilbur and Tommy from his lands. 

Wilbur would actually try and turn it to the mainland for assistance at first, but due to Dreams' trauma regarding things and general hatred of him, hes refused. As Dream said, once he made that country, everything after was his problem.

Dream does offer to take in Tommy within the community house for the sake of the kid (he knows what Pogtopia does to him) but Tommy stays with Wilbur.

Eret and Quackity grow closer under Schlatt's abuse, of which Eret takes the brunt of to protect Quackity and the kid.

Around this time Fundy and Dream would start to date.

Wilbur still invites Techno, who takes one look at Pogtopia and wants nothing to do with it (he knows where this will lead, it's like he can feel the anvil) 

It's this choice that allows dream to realize he also jumped, and they reconnect before Technology moves up into the artic

Dream, post wedding, offers Eret the crown and to take over the more political side of the server, which Eret eagerly agrees to. 

this isn't actually relevant but i want you all to know Eret canonically sleeps with Both pumpkin duo separately. It's funny 

Wilbur asks for the TnT and is promptly chewed out for it by Dream. He ends out getting help from the remaining people within Manburg to stage a coup instead of just bombing the place

Philza is also invited onto the server a lot earlier than prior, though he takes one look at Manburg and also goes "nah mate, fuck that," and goes up to Techno in the artic along with Fundy and Dream.

Closer to the end of the Manburg conflict, Wilbur makes the choice to entrust Eret with Tommy (and Tubbo's) safety. Dream gives Eret a cross bow and tells him to use it wisely.

Schlatt corners Eret after fleeing Manburg once the conflict starts. 

Eret shoots him in the heart after the first warning.

NEW L'MANBURG 

Wilbur takes over the government and becomes president (I have yet to decide who's his vice and cabinet)

Eret is now comfortable in his place as King, the Essempi & New L'manburg have a better business/kingdom relationship. With trading and all of that.

Tommy and Tubbo are both significantly less traumatized without constant wars weighing on them. 

Tommy has a more positive opinion of Dream since he cut through Wilbur's insanity and married into the family.

Wilbur ends up adopting Tommy as his son later on. 

L'manburg grows to be the second largest country in the server, only beaten by the main Essempi.

That's all for now.

[wildwinterlunas]

What I always found irritating and hypocritical of the exile arc is that immediately after c!Tommy was exiled c!Quackity, c!Tubbo and c!Fundy started making plans to straight up kill c!Techno. Like Tommy greifed George's house with no intention of taking a canon life, while the Butcher Army did have that intention.

Cause all three of them gave Tommy shit for provoking Dream by stealing from George and burning a couple blocks of his house. Which was fixed in the stream after in under 20 mins and Tommy was given the actual appropriate punishment of being greifed back. Then immediately after that punishment of exile is given they start making plans to kill Techno.

And while yes, Quackity and Fundy disagreed with the decision to exile Tommy, that doesn't negate the fact that they still gave Tommy shit for it. When at least Tommy had the knowledge and experience to know that Dream could be overpowered, there was no evidence of that with Techno and as we see with the Butcher Army, Techno can't be overpowered like Dream can. This is also something Tommy knew cause I distinctly remember him saying that he did want to go after Techno but could right now cause he knew they would loose (though I might be misremembering).

At the end of the day, do I think this would have mattered? Do I think the outcome would have changed if Tommy wasn't exiled? No, Tommy was likely already spiraling after Wilbur's death, and if Niki is any constellation on how New L'Manburg acted in that regard, I don't think anyone would have checked in on Tommy regardless of exile. Tommy's downward spiral was an inevitability no matter what happened with exile, Dream and exile just sped the process up. I also don't think Tommy's reluctance to immediately go after Techno would have changed that outcome either. It would have at best lead to Tommy not being informed of the situation and ending up in a similar situation to Ranboo, or at worst Tommy also being put under house arrest cause he tried to stop them from making a very obvious bad decision.

Though none of this is to say I hated this arc, in all honesty I think it's a good example of how the different perspectives of the characters affected them. Tubbo, Quackity and Fundy all had mainly negative interactions with Techno and Techno never got the chance to know them outside of L'Manburg's government up to that point like he did with Tommy. Honestly I may be of the opinion that a lot of things would have changed if the plot happened differently but Doomsday is one of the only circumstances that I think were unavoidable.

I just wish the hypocrisy of the Butcher Army happening right after Tommy was exiled was addressed at some point (If it was addressed though please tell me cause honestly don't think it ever was).

[bleue-flora]

sad nobody ever acknowledges the members who joined lmanburg post revolution I think it's actual integral to the characters and retconning them to have been part of the direct fight is a disservice

Not sure if you mean me or just people in general. If I am supposed to be included in that, I’d say I hardly retcon it even if I don’t often talk about them much. Most of time I’m talking about L’manberg isn’t about the founding and its government and less about its members…

Anyways, it is certainly a disservice and while I haven’t seen anyone retconning, I wouldn’t be surprised if people do, despite that not making sense. There are very few things if any that I actually retcon, and dang for people to retcon characters like that is frustrating.

It is interesting that I think we don’t talk enough about them though in general. For example Fundy did a lot for the country and yet is rarely acknowledged. In some ways while he was acting as a spy from the every beginning of Schlatt’s reign and keeping his spy’s diary, I wonder if he also kinda appreciated Schlatt. I mean for starters Wilbur belittled him [clip] so being treated with respect and given responsibility and stuff must have felt good for Fundy. Then again Schlatt was also hurting Niki and they are good friends. Speaking of, I also think the Coconut2020 party is not talked about enough, eventhough out of all the candidates, in my opinion they sounded like they had the best vision for the country. They were apart of it after all so they knew the flaws first hand, versus George and Quackity, and they weren’t power hungry like Schlatt and Wilbur, they actually wanted to make things better… suppose their loss reflects the real world in that way… oof

Anyways, it’s interesting that Eret basically built a lot of the original L’manberg, Fundy and Tubbo built a lot of Manberg, and yet L’manberg is always talked about as a Tommy, Tubbo thing. I mean no one ever talks about Karl eventhough he died over and over on Nov 16th and his island wasn’t even apart of L’manberg was targeted by the withers… I don’t know where I was going with this, except you are right we don’t talk enough about other members and recognize the pain they went through and such. I mean it’s not like Niki plotted to kill Dream or Techno and yet her house was destroyed in doomsday :(…

[ghosts-and-blue-sweaters]

things from my nlm vod notes abt ghostbur that make me slightly insane:

-Ghostbur was not missing all his memories when he came into existence. He showed up in the ruins with all his memories, then over the course of about ninety minutes on Nov 17th lost most of them, before which he acted like just a more detached and apathetic version of wilbur as he was in pogtopia (this version is named lucibur by quackity i think)

-ghostbur first manifesting because quackity n tubbo n fundy were trying to figure out the tune of the lmanberg anthem

-Nov 17th Ghostbur to Tubbo: "I feel like I need to say to you especially that I wasn't intending to blow up Tubbo's L'Manberg, to be honest, I wanted to blow up Tommy's L'Manburg. I-I made him president and then I was going to blow it up- as sort of a testament to his reign. But then he gave it to you, and I think you’ll be a good leader."

-ghostbur for all intensive purposes being a tangible guy who can walk around wherever he wants and talk to people and build things and hit people and play instruments. but he is like. metatextually unable to affect the plot in major ways. everything he does with nlm beyond aesthetic decoration is either advising other people or watching other people. he is powerless to stop exile or techno's execution or doomsday or anything. which i think is a neat way to do a ghost

-ghostbur riding around on horseback shooting people with his. gun? and invisible. he did this a lot and its very fucking funny

-ghostbur being the first person to call tubbo Mr President and also being deeply deeply insistent that tubbo wear wilbur's old presidential suit. i dont know what to make of that but its painful whatever it is

-ghostbur saying fundy makes him feel patriotic. hello

-ghostbur defining the difference between himself and wilbur as "he was a bad man and i am not." HELLO???? THERES LAYERS THERE

-ghostbur having moments of being very terse or harsh with tubbo or irritated with tommy before literally saying "sorry! im back to being friendly" which (if you choose to read into this like i do and not just take it as acting inconsistency) could imply that being nice is not like. the default state of how ghostbur is as a person? if that makes sense? like he doesnt naturally lean towards being nice to people, but rather its a conscious choice he just follows fucking religiously

-whatever the FUCK is going on with ghostbur and tommy before tommy got very attached to him during exile and continuing onwards. first interaction between them is from a tubbo stream where ghostbur says he's "thinking of throwing tommy out" of lmanberg and it only sounds half like a joke. ghostbur seemingly remembering tommy with crystal clarity. tommy referring to ghostbur as wilbur consistently before switching to ghostbur and then seeming significantly freaked out by him. ghostbur giving tommy invis potions (and tommys later psychological dependence on invis potions in season 4). tommy describing his relationship with ghostbur as "coworkers." ow.

-ghostbur's reason for building so much around new l'manberg is that he thinks it's his unfinished business (not addressing when tubbo speculates that tommy might be his unfinished business) and saying he doesn't understand why he's not dead.

GASP. GASP GASP.

OH THANK YOU FOR SENDING THIS TO ME I AM MUNCHING ON THIS ASK LIKE A DELECTABLE TREAT !!!!!!!

1. DUDE Ghostbur’s first moments on the Dream SMP are so so interesting!! Yeah exactly, he was essentially just… Wilbur as a ghost. Fascinating! It seems like the longer Ghostbur was on the server, the more he leaned into a personality that was seperate from Wilbur’s, and the more he kinda became his Own Guy, rather than the ghost of a guy. Y’know? When he first showed up, his voice wasn’t high-pitched, he had most/all of his memories, and his personality was pretty much indistinguishable from Wilbur’s—and only after he had some time to experience life & think about things did he become Ghostbur, rather than Wilbur’s Ghost. I just think it’s very neat & a super cool part of his lore!

2. Something something Wilbur started the L’manburg National Anthem something something and Ghostbur was the one who finished it… something something. Unfinished symphonies being completed…

3. BROOOOO THAT QUOTE. “I wanted to blow up Tommy’s L’manburg” goshdangggg, man.

4. OH THAT IS A NEAT OBSERVATION!! Yes!!! Gosh every so often I think about the fact that Tommy really was one of the only people who tried to remember Ghostbur after he died; most everyone else either forgot about Ghostbur or acted as if he never existed. With that and also what you said about Ghostbur being unable to affect the plot, I just find it… so incredibly interesting. Ghostbur cannot float or fly or walk through walls like a typical ghost, but in almost every other aspect he is a ghost, in every sense of the word. He can’t grasp the plot or canon events with tangible hands; everything just slips through his fingers, rendering him helpless and powerless. Very interesting!

5. AJGSKSGSKSGSJSGS YEAHYEAHYEAH!!! Ghostbur’s strider <3 I think the strider’s name was Larrie? If I’m remembering correctly? Anyways yes Ghostbur turned into a little menace whenever he rode that thing and I appreciate it so much <3

6. Ough… </3 Thinks about Ghostbur saying “it looks like you’re filling in some big shoes” and thinks about Tubbo replying “I actually have very very small feet.” </333333 I think Ghostbur saw Tubbo in Such an optimistic light because he saw what Wilbur could have been, if things had turned out better. Ghostbur saw a strong man who wanted the best for his country and worked hard to get it there, and I think it reminded Ghostbur a lot of Wilbur during the early L’manburg days, when he was fiery and ambitious and headstrong and passionate and overflowing with love for a nation he’d built with his own two hands. And I think that put quite a bit of pressure on Tubbo, and also perhaps some dread, because unlike Ghostbur, Tubbo knows how Wilbur’s story ended—he remembers it. He remembers how dark and corrupted Wilbur got, and Ghostbur doesn’t have those memories and/or knowledge.

7. GHOSTBUR AND FUNDY YOU WILL ALWAYS BE FAMOUS. TO ME.

8. THE RELATIONSHIP THAT GHOSTBUR HAS WITH WILBUR (AND VICE VERSA) IS INSANE TO ME!!! YES YOU’RE SO RIGHT THERE ARE SO MANY LAYERS!!! GOSH!!! Ghostbur really tried to distance himself Completely from Wilbur, often to the point of denial, repression, and general unhealthiness. While I do believe that Ghostbur and Wilbur are not the same person—and feel very strongly about that—I also definitely think that acknowledging the fact that Ghostbur would not exist without Wilbur, that he is deeply connected to Wilbur, and that there are similarities between them is hekkin important—and it’s something that Ghostbur tries his best not to do. And it’s not good!! It’s not healthy!! Ghostbur causes a lot of angst for himself because of this!!

And also Ghostbur’s strictly black and white worldview, especially during his earlier days, and especially in regards to Wilbur, does a lot more harm than good, and completely erases & ignores the good aspects that Wilbur had, and the good things he did throughout his life. I think Ghostbur likes to believe that Wilbur is an inherently, 100% purely evil monster of a man who can only do bad, destructive things—and of course that’s not true at all. Wilbur is a person just like Ghostbur, and he makes serious mistakes and has serious flaws, but y’know. He’s also human. And humans are a very messy mixture of good and bad.

I think that the journey Ghostbur goes on with his opinions about Wilbur is one of the most interesting parts of the entire SMP, and it’s a real shame that no one talks about it. Over the course of Ghostbur’s (admittedly very short) life, he goes from “Wilbur was evil and incapable of good” to “Wilbur did bad things but he wasn’t fully monstrous.” AND!! THAT IS SO COOL AND INTERESTING!! AND FILLED WITH SO MANY THINGS TO PICK APART & THINK ABOUT & PONDER!!!

And also the journey Wilbur goes on after revival in the way that he views Ghostbur. In so many ways it’s like a perfect mirror to Ghostbur’s journey!! Wilbur goes from “Ghostbur was weak and pathetic and I hate him” to “Ghostbur was a human being and he did a lot of good things and he’s worthy & deserving of an apology” AND!!! THE PARALLELS?? ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING MEEEEEEE

9. Okayokay before reading this ask I did absolutely view that as acting inconsistencies, but bro. That is such a better idea?? Oh my gosh??? It adds another layer to Ghostbur’s wonderfully complex little mind!! Ohhh man I’m gonna be thinking about this now. Also ties into the fact that Ghostbur acted almost identical to Wilbur when he first came into existence, and gradually lost a lot of the Wilbur-esque traits as time wore on. Perhaps the meanness was a leftover trait of Wilbur’s during Pogtopia that Ghostbur adopted for a little while.

10. “ghostbur giving tommy invis potions (and tommys later psychological dependence on invis potions in season 4)” OH OH OH OH. OH. OH. O H H H H. WELL. THAT IS ANOTHER THING I AM GOING TO BE THINKING ABOUT. AJSGAJGSIAGSJSGSKSGIS!!!!!!!!!

Gosh Ghostbur & Tommy make me so insane I’m not freaking joking they’re so. they’re. they just. sighs. Imagine if your brother died and he leaves a ghost in his wake and the ghost is your brother but wait no he’s not your brother but he looks so similar and sounds so similar but he also looks so different and sounds so different and you don’t want to love him at first because he’s wrong and you can’t love a wrong brother but eventually love starts leaking out of you in uncontrollable rivers because gosh you miss your brother and this ghost is not your brother but he’s similar enough. Maybe you can try loving him too. And then you start loving him with a love that’s different than the love you had for your brother because this ghost is not your brother but maybe he can be a friend and sometimes you feel like you need to look out for him and it feels weird but you love him anyway even throughout all the strangeness. And then you watch the ghost die and you feel responsible and you miss him but now your brother is back. Except now your brother feels like a ghost and the ghost feels like your brother. Do you hear what I’m saying. They make me insane.

Also Tubbo suggesting that maybe Ghostbur is haunting Tommy. Also that.

10. Ghostbur is simply trying to cobble together an identity for himself but the problem is that he doesn’t know who he is, not really, so he’s constantly searching for something to live for, and he’s constantly confused and wondering and longing. Longing for something solid that he can set his mind on. And he really gravitated towards the idea of rebuilding L’manburg I think because 1) L’manburg was Wilbur’s unfinished symphony and Ghostbur feels like he’s the one who needs to be responsible for finishing it, and 2) rebuilding L’manburg would be beneficial for & appreciated by the residents, which would make them happy, and Ghostbur has his heart dead-set on making people happy, and 3) he has no idea what his purpose could be outside of L’manburg, so he finds it easier to pour himself into that country, so much so that he leaves little to no room for speculation on other possibilities for why he was “brought back.”

Ghostbur and his constant struggle with identity my beloved <3

Heyheyhey this was Such an exciting ask to receive I absolutely adored getting to read your super freakin interesting thoughts & ramble about my own ideas!! Thank you so much for sending this to me omg <333

[deimosisreallycool]

Well, what are your AUs ? How would you rank them ?

OMG okay so theres the AU i love the most which takes place right after the prison escape, and basically Dream asks for another favor from Techno - a favor for Techno to kill him.

Of course, Techno's confused and they fight a bit, but in the end Techno is defeated because Dream tells him he's going to die either bye his hands or Dream's own. And in retaliation, Techno decides that the only way he'd end up killing Dream is if they both kill eachother.

Sword in hand, they both wield them and hug eachother and ofc die

Later the SMP tries finding them and BOOM! theyre unalived and cuddling 🤯

Then more plot happens with drama between the SMP members, and Punz ends up resurecting dream from the dead which ends up in Dream dying again in battle - right after he explains how he died

AU no#2 is another angst DNB one because thats my whole personality apparently,

This happens before prison and during the Dream x Fundy arc, Dream and fundy are not on good terms and (not divorced but everyone thinks they are)

Dream tries to unalive himself one day, in a forest, by downing 2 weakness and poison potions

Techno finds him and panics, drinking his last regen potion and kissing Dream to make him swallow it.

And more random plot - then Fundy finds out what happened and gets jealous, and basically after that the whole server thinks both are dead until they decide to burn the server doen and kill everyone lmao

AU#3 is a prison one before techno and the prison podcast happens, its also another dream angst brcause its literally just Quackity torturing him. because apparently i love gore! yay

and theres so many more AUs i want to go into more detail for but oh well i feel like i've already ranted too much 😒

if you have any names for these aus id be happy to hear :)

[cdroloisms]

one of the things ive always found neat about c!dreams and c!wilburs dynamic is that c!wilbur is one of the few people on the server who view themselves as equal to dream in terms of strategy and schemes!

interesting!

it's funny to me ... because i think as far as c!dream being perceived as someone specifically like plotting in nature, that was definitely something that evolved over time? like, a lot of c!dream's early reputation was rooted in two things: 1) he's intimidating and 2) he's hard to kill. which meant that people would kind of see antagonizing c!dream as a challenge, in a way, c!tommy being the most obvious example but characters such as c!tubbo, c!fundy, and c!sapnap also getting involved in the action--in general, besting dream was a sort of achievement, so like you say there was a degree of hmm putting him on a pedestal almost. or making him the pedestal might be the more accurate description, where c!dream was The Guy To Beat, Mr. 1000 IQ etc

at the same time tho, dsmp characters are nothing if not full of hubris (LOL) and i don't think c!dream's hmmm strategic genius in character and plotting is something necessarily highlighted that much early on, or at least as something that people couldn't measure up to. lmanburg directly undercuts the intelligence of the "americans" quite often in its creation, as part of the whole Spiel was that americans are idiots and a large part of why the revolution panned out the way it did was because of a relative overestimation by lmanburg of their own combatic and strategic abilities against dream smp. i think the list of people who have estimated themselves as smarter than c!dream and have tried (and failed) to outsmart him is very high tbh, gestures at c!quackity LOL but also like...idk, c!dream's intelligence in terms of the ways people view it on the server always felt ... kinda variable to me? c!dream-as-schemer was more heavily emphasized as "c!dream is someone that only every pursues anything for selfish self-interest" imo

as for the c!wilbur of it all...c!wilbur is undeniably intelligent as a character. and he doesn't particularly underestimate c!dream much, i would say--especially post-revolution, he is very aware that c!dream is an enemy that he doesn't want to have. but at the same time, c!wilbur has a pattern of making somewhat mocking comments particularly about c!dream's intelligence (and when not mocking, sometimes a little...condescending? very much emphasizing the whole "ohhh he's 1000 IQ dream he's so much above all of us" and such) (god. dont remind me of the trivia competition) and also quite fucking easily talks circles around c!dream and does use this to his benefit. then again, i wouldn't say c!wilbur is as strategically minded as c!dream, necessarily--his strengths tend to lie elsewhere. something similar can be said about his "scheming"--even the most successful of his arguable schemes, lmanburg, snowballs quite quickly into something beyond his original intentions and then kind of consumes him.

this is a whole lot of words for a whole lot of nothing, but ig my point is when talking abt characters and intelligence, there's a lot you can say in 1) pinpointing specific areas of intelligence 2) assessing their prowess in each individual area and 3) looking at their ability to assess their own skill in this area as well as the skill of others. in general, i would say that characters on the dream smp tend to underestimate c!dream's strategic skill (or else more people would probably be questioning the whole, staged finale of it all) and their assessment of his scheming tends to be pretty dependent on how much they can use said assessments on his schemes as a vehicle to blame him, lmao (gestures at the mexican lmanburg debates). so from this perspective id say that there are quite a few characters that do think themselves as quote-unquote "smarter" than c!dream and able to out-strategize, out-scheme him (whether or not they're actually capable of this fact) and that if we're talking abt specifically c!dreambur, id say that a post specifically on their perspectives of each other would be MUCH MUCH MUCH longer and much more complicated, on a whole c!wilbur does seem pretty cognizant of the fact that their strengths intellectually lie in different areas and utilizes this in interactions that involve the two. if this makes sense

[cearthduo]

Actually, to add to that post that you recently re-blog I think that’s one of the things that caused me the first begin to question how people view C!Dream when it comes to the whole ‘C!Dream manipulated techno’ overlooking the whole part about how that removes autonomy from Techno own actions also kind of turn Dream into this villain sue who is responsible for every single event in the serverwhich is a very common problem here. Like the dude didn’t even manipulate. He just saw an opportunity where one of the more powerful members of the servers is is pissed at L’Manberg a country that wants to be destroyed and all you have to do is just walk up and be like hey bro do you want destroy together? He’s a very smart guy and he is capable of manipulation, but not every strategy that he does is manipulation. Some of it is merely just taking an opportunities to gain an advantage in the situation. Plus, I just think that putting doomsday down to all of dreams manipulation is not really smart. All it is it’s just a domino effect due to a series of bad decisions and people who already have a dislikes towards the country taking advantage of those decisions to get the results that they wanted 

This is definitely how I feel about the situation too. No hate to the person I rb because i still genuinely think their take is well written and well researched, but when it comes to theorizing there will always be holes and a bit of bias. I've taken into account the fact the person I rb looked at the smp chronologically rather than using new info and looking back with new knowledge. And while that definitely makes sense, the majority of points I went against didn't change based on just the staged conflict.

I think seeing Dream as the mastermind in full control of the plot undermines a lot of intelligence other characters has. That take in particular undermined the planning the butcher army put in and any bias they has towards specific characters. For example, Quackity had the butcher army room set up before Tommy got exiled because he has personally beef with Techno. There's also the fact that Tubbo saw Techno as a more immediate threat because he believed that L'manberg had Dream under their thumb and that they were on neutral terms. That meant that, by his logic, Techno was more likely to attack and needed to be dealt with. Then there's the fact that the Drundy wedding was still canon at the time and Fundy was all googly eyes over Dream which meant even he was more inclined to go for Techno first.

Dream is an opportunist. He's strategic first and manipulative later. Having Eret betray L'manberg was strategic. That's the reason L'manberg tries to get a spy as well. Dream also expected more of a fight than what he got. I mean, he made a backup plan in case someone died 😭 the final control room seems overkill in hindsight but Dream fully expected an equal battle and planned accordingly.

Dream is a little bitch and a manipulator and smarter than he needs to be, but at the same time I think pointing every minor story detail back at Dream does harm to the overarching storyline. Technoblade is an intelligent character. He's pointed out Dream's inconsistencies and fuck ups more than any other character. Dream tries to sway his opinion here and there, sure, but whether or not Dream said anything Techno still would've been upset about the government reforming. Techno still would've known about and aided in Wilbur's self destruction hence his excited "he actually did it!" when Dream reveals that Wilbur blew up L'manberg.

And at the end of the day someone is probably gonna disagree with this take because I'm not a mastermind Dream believer and that's fine, but I also urge these people to look at the behaviors of other characters and see if there's a pattern in how they act without factoring in Dream or even Tommy, and I'm sure you'll find it.

And also... argue with me in the fucking asks!!! reblogging paragraphs is gonna annoy people aka me and my need for a scrollable page!!! fuck!!