#knh discourse

[mxrderscenes]

the reason why maomao appears younger during the frog scene:

with the ending of season two of the apothecary diaries, can i talk about frog scene and the idea of maomao "looking like a child" during it?

I DID NOT BETA READ THIS so mb if im rambling

as a disclaimer: im a light novel reader, as well as a fem-presenting petite person with a high pitched voice (aka, the infantilization of petite women is my area of expertise)

as well, some of the photo comparisons include spoilers for the LNs.

tldr at the end!

the apothecary diaries has a deep anti-pedophile narrative, so when episodes 35 and 36 came out, a lot of people expressed their displeasure with the portrayal of maomao during a sexual scene, citing that she looked much younger than usual during it. i dont believe that this is a baseless argument, however i dont believe that this was intentional either. this is partially a theory, but stay with me on this.

firstly: what makes a character look young, and why is that important?

when talking in terms of anime art styles, there are a few ways in which people make their characters look younger. thats going to be:

the size of the eyes

the size of the head in relation to the rest of the body

the overall frame of their body

the reason why most characters in anime as a whole look as young as they do is because of the art style, which typically includes an anatomically large head and large eyes. when we talk about the anatomy of children, one of the first things that youll notice is that they, too, have a large head and large eyes. during development, the size of a humans eyes do not change, meaning that your eyes look much bigger on you when you are small vs when you are grown.

in regards to maomao in the anime, these features are exaggerated to make it more clear to the audience. her eyes are much larger in the anime vs the light novels, with her head being larger and her frame being smaller.

these features, while present in her canon LN design, are very exaggerated in the anime. typically, youll see this is animation as a whole because exaggerations make conveying messages much clearer to the audience. maomaos petite frame is important to her character, due to her being malnourished as a child. maomaos growth was stunted as a result of her upbringing.

you see characters mention this is a negative light, specifically when jinshi tells maomao that she needs to put on some more weight. her size is viewed as a negative trait.

despite being exaggerated, her frame is often hidden behind multiple layers of clothing. she mentions briefly during her time in the rear palace that her uniform is made up of thick cotton, and she wears about 3 layers at any given time. there arent many moments where we see maomao without the extra layers. despite being clearly much smaller than a lot of the other people in the palace, we only see her bare frame about two times before the frog scene, both of these being when shes at the verdagris house. this may give people the false impression that maomao is bigger than she actually is.

as you can see, her shoulders look larger when shes in uniform, which is how we see her for the majority of the show.

now, compare that uniform to how she looks in a different outfit, one that only has 1-2 layers instead of her usual 3.

looks much smaller by comparison!

so we know how to make a character appear younger and why maomao looks young in the series as a whole, but why is this important, and how does it relate to the frog scene?

when we look at the anime, there are plenty of times where maomaos features are exaggerated further. often times, when maomao is expressing a large emotion, the animators will enlargen her eyes. this makes it easier for convey the specific emotion that she is feeling, and its a very common thing in anime.

you see this a lot when maomao talks about the ox bezor, which is something that maomao has a deep interest in. when shes excited over it, her eyes are animated to look larger than usual.

night and day difference, right?

this isnt the only time that maomao is presented in this way, however. we actually see this exact same thing when maomao is being viewed through the eyes of jinshi.

notice how she almost always looks prettier when hes looking at/envisioning her?

now- hear me out.

a new trope thats becoming more popular in anime as of recently is the idea of the fmc looking more beautiful when her male counterpart is looking at her. the idea is that no matter how bad someone may look, their lover believes that they are always beautiful no matter the circumstances. no them, there is no "peak" because they always look their best.

we even see this in the apothecary diaries with fengxian and lakan!

bro even went as far as to give her her nose back

other examples just to make my point a little more clear:

this trope is most clearly seen in spyxfamily.

now, do i have any genuine proof that this is what theyre attempting to acheive? no, im not on the animation team and there have been so official statements on this. could i be wrong about my assuption? absolutely, and ill take the L if i am.

but the reason why i bring this up, and how it connects to the points i made before, is that the way to make a character appear younger and the way to make a character appear "prettier" are the same.

now, lets take all of these ideas together and compare them to the actual frog scene, as well as looking at the same scene in the LNs.

now, when we look at maomao in the waterfall/frog scene, there are a few things to note right off the bat.

her actual body type and physical frame are not drawn differently in this scene

her eyes are much larger than usual

she looks much smaller in comparison to jinshi

the size difference between jinshi and maomao is not any different in this scene

body comparisons for maomao throughout the series just to get a clearer picture.

jinshi and maomaos height difference in other scenes.

jinshi and maomao have always had a large size difference. this is another show of their different upbringings and how they have shaped them physically. jinshi is a trained solider who has never known hunger a day in his life, and maomao is a malnourished commoner who went hungry on many occassions. it makes somplete sense that they would have a size difference, and the frog scene does not change or exaggerate this difference by any means.

maomao is just petite.

now, small ≠ child. however, small + larger eyes + petite frame does make her look more childlike than usual. especially when we compare it to the same scene in the LNs.

do you notice the difference? smaller eyes, no birds eye angle, and noticable curves that demonstrate that she has gone through puberty- curves that are absent in the anime.

now, maomaos frame was exaggerated from the beginning. it was not changed specifically for this scene. its important to make that clear when we talk about this particular change. the criticisms that people make when talking about this scene and how maomao looks younger are present during the entire anime.

my verdict: was this an intentional decision to make maomao look younger? no. does she look younger? absolutely, but not because of her petite frame. this was just a series of poor decisions that all combined into this unfortunate scene.

tldr; people think maomao looks younger because of the size of her eyes and the lack of layers shes wearing during the frog scene. this is an anime specific issue, and is not an issue in the LNs, because maomao is curvier in the LNs.

[frostfires-blog]

Me watching the Solo Leveling and Frieren fandoms argue about which one of the two is going to win "Anime of the Year" when I want The Apothecary Diaries to win:

[leahthedreamer]

Everytime y’all talk about the brain dead kusuriya discourse that happens on tiktok it further validates my non-interest in ever joining that app.

[spock-adoodledoo]

discourse? In my knh tag? It’s more likely than you think

[transgendermusic]

Liner notes from the new Stag Hunt album out today: 

This album is the preparatory phase to me feeling like I have the equipment to weather the human storm and build a lighthouse on the coast of these primordial oceans. This ep is about love. It is about love helping me build armour and and stripping it back so it is all out there. This record revisits me and where I was and the not hating that. The two acoustic tracks were recorded recently but with lyrics from an old note book with lyrics from when i was maybe lensed in a different way. I had my iris shut a little maybe. But I took that and embraced that and here it is. The rest of the tracks are improvisations and things brought forth through my more current take on music on music creation, which was influenced by jazz and noise and by my own limitations as a musician. This album is about love. It is for my family. My brother drue. My Girlfriend minnie. My homies Manny, Z, Kiana, Dylan, Noah, Morgan, the KNH crew. to quote manny, someone whose music I admire greatly, 'if I forget ya I ain't forget yat'. The people that listened when I would talk and such. Please Keep me humble, and keep me feeling loved and listened to and safe and like we can make the discourse. We will keep at it. This record is for the love of the teachers. Milo: a man whose output constantly inspires my intellectual push, my artistic construction. Professors that I have had. This record is about considering ones weight on the world, the weight of the armour and the weapon. We are armed with the weapons we make and I hope we consider that construction. Everything can be dismantled.

[frostfires-blog]

Why do you think "Raven in the Inner Place" is not as popular as "Apothecary Diaries"? I mean both have similar themes of mystery and cases, right? Both have strong, intelligent, and independent femMC with the supportive ML....

Oh yeah, you said that better to recommend you books than anime/manga, right?

Then, how about adding 'The Captive Prince' trilogy? Yes, they're 3 books but compared to TGCF or MDZS those 3 books are really short. Really, trust me...!

The couples' dynamics are so great! The mc (Damen) is such a sweetheart and you can't help but root and also love the ml (Laurent)....

Bonus, when you finished them, there are a lot of fanarts and fanfics of Damen/Laurent....🥰🤩😆

It's a slow burn story, angst with a happy ending, drama, political, that are so good...

Hope you'll love it...

Hi, thanks for sending in an ask! That's actually a question I ask myself all the time... I'm sure my household is tired of hearing my complaints about this issue so hopefully writing it out might give me some closure...

Before I start I'd just like to clarify some things...

I really like both series. In fact I started watching The Apothecary Diaries because I missed Raven of the Inner Palace... So in no way am I intending to hate on either series with this post...

While I'm currently reading the light novels of The Apothecary Diaries—and am on volume 8 presently—I haven't read any of the light novels of Raven Of The Inner Palace. Therefore I can only base my arguments off of the anime for the latter series, though I definitely plan on reading the novels at some point... That being said, I have included a spoiler for the finale of Raven Of The Inner Palace's light novel... However I have clearly marked it, so you can skip over it if need be...

From here on out I will be referring to both series by their respective Japanese titles as it's grammatically easier for me to use them in sentences.

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Why Kōkyū no Karasu isn't as popular as Kusuriya no Hitorigoto?

While a multitude of factors can contribute towards a disparity in popularity between two series, I believe the main factor at play in this case is the differing demographics of both series. Although Kusuriya no Hitorigoto is somewhat ambiguous in terms of demographic—considering the novel was initially aimed at women—it is largely considered to fall into the seinen bracket because its manga adaptation is serialized in a seinen magazine. Kōkyū no Karasu, on the other hand, is exclusively categorised under the josei demographic.

1.) Marketing and Investment

Throughout the history of the animanga industry, women have never been prioritised and accommodated for in the same manner that male audiences have. This is evidenced by the limited adaptations, merchandise and promotion shoujo and josei series receive relative to their shounen and seinen counterparts due to a perceived lesser profitability. Kusuriya no Hitorigoto has almost certainly benefited from being rebranded as a seinen. This change in demographic has undoubtedly resulted in the series receiving more investment resulting in better promotion and more adaptations—ultimately allowing it to reach a larger audience than Kōkyū no Karasu. The difference in production quality of both series’ anime can also be attributed to how adaptations of shounen and seinen series oftentimes have more polished adaptations—due to increased investment—which helps further bolster their popularity.

2.) Viewer Interest

Although not everyone is the same, most shoujo and josei fans enjoy a wide range of genres and demographics, whereas the vast majority of shounen and seinen fans only consume shounen and seinen animanga. The "rebranding" of Kusuriya no Hitorigoto into a seinen series has allowed it to resonate with a larger audience compared to Kōkyū no Karasu—thus resulting in the former series achieving higher sales and greater popularity.

3.) The prioritization of romance in shoujo and josei demographics

Many of the executives in the animanga production industry mostly are men, who not only see greater economic potential in own demographics, but also have misguided assumptions about the demands and interests of the female audience. Furthermore production companies are more hesitant to invest in shoujo and josei adaptations—so when they do invest in these demographics, they tend to stick to what appears to be a safer option. Consequently shoujo and josei series with romance-focused narratives are pushed to the forefront as it is assumed that is what female audiences want. Shoujo and josei series that deviate from this pattern are often assumed to have a limited appeal and thus aren’t given as much investment and promotion. Whereas the shounen and seinen demographics are littered with series that prioritise genres other than romance. As a result, even though Kusuriya no Hitorigoto and Kōkyū no Karasu both emphasize topics and narratives beyond their romantic subplots—the former series likely encountered fewer obstacles in obtaining investment opportunities compared to the latter due to its shift in demographic. [Potential spoilers in the following paragraph!] Furthermore, the conclusion of the Kōkyū no Karasu’s light novel—which chose to solidify the relationship between its female and male leads as platonic rather than romantic—likely further limited the series’ potential for further investment opportunities due the prioritization of romance-driven narratives in series aimed at a female audience.

4.) Other points to consider:

-> Kusuriya no Hitorigoto's logic and science-based approach to solving mysteries likely appeals to a wider audience than Kōkyū no Karasu's mystical and fantastical elements. -> Kōkyū no Karasu expresses its character development and themes more subtly than Kusuriya no Hitorigoto does, potentially making it less appealing to broader audiences. -> The highly stylized visuals in Kōkyū no Karasu’s anime have resulted in the series having a more niche appeal than Kusuriya no Hitorigoto’s more straightforward presentation. -> Kōkyū no Karasu has always had to bear the brunt of comparison against Kusuriya no Hitorigoto, considering the former began publication in 2018 when the latter had already captured a substantial portion of the audience’s interest within the same niche. -> One of the primary critiques levelled at Kōkyū no Karasu’s anime is that it feels rushed and thus lacks depth and memorability, especially when juxtaposed with Kusuriya no Hitorigoto. However unlike the latter series, which had a 24-episode first season to meticulously develop its plot points and characters, Kōkyū no Karasu only had 13 episodes.  

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Hopefully this meets your expectations... I'm a little nervous since I used a different writing style and tone than I usually do haha...

Btw thanks for the recommendations! Tbh, I wouldn't say I'm better at reading books then manga... It's just that my tbw and tbr lists are so long, it feels like I never get around to anything... So, I can't promise that I'll get to them soon. I've steadily been working on clearing my lists though, since it was my goal for this year. The polls I've been posting every now and then have really helped to keep me accountable—even if I go off book sometimes lol...

[frostfires-blog]

Put a finger down if you suddenly realised that the reason you've been subtly disliking one ship is the same reason you've been greatly enjoying another and as a result, you've come to the realisation that you were being hypocritical and now appreciate both ships.

Me: *Puts a finger down*

[frostfires-blog]

As someone who grew up with shoujosei series, I have quite a lot of manga series (Kimi ni Todoke, Ao Haru Ride, Maid-sama, Kamisama Kiss, Gakuen Alice, etc). But as I grew older I start to dislike them, even regreting my collections (the ones that I don't regret are Akatsuki no Yona and Fruits Basket). Then I grew tired and start avoid most het romance stories.

Then, I got into LGBTQ+ themed manga/manhwa, and felt so happy and liberated. After that, the only romance that I want to enjoy are only BL & GL media.

For others, I'm fine with either demographics, as long as it's non-romance focused, be it either shounen/seinen/shoujo/seinen (especially if they have strong bromance vibes).

That's me for the last 5 years, but last year, I can't help but love these series (I'm surprised that I love their het romance, too) : Skip & Loafer, Apothecary Diaries and Yakuza Fiancé.

So agree with you, that Apothecary Diaries have amazing feminism theme. And Maomao? One of my all time favorite character ever! Love her since ep.1.

Because you already watched Yakuza Fiance and Skip & Loafer, can I ask your opinion on these series? Do you also love the main ships of these series? Mitsumi and Yoshino are also some of my fav femMC, too....

Thank you @frostfires-blog for sharing your posts and made me realize that it's okay to love all kinda stories.

Reading how you love a lot of het ships from shoujosei & shounen series.

Also m/m non canon ones (especially BakuDeku, my all time fav ship ever). And the canon m/m ones (HuaLian, WangXian, and SasaMiya are my top 3). And the m/f ones (KyoRu & HakYona will always be my beloved and now with JinMao, too).

They are all beautiful ships! Love your posts so much 🌻💐

Thanks to you, now I can admit that I don't really hate those het romance focused shoujosei series all along.

Hi, thanks for sending in an ask!

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-> Introduction: It is natural to outgrow things

Growing out of things you used to like is a natural part of life... That being said, I'm very sentimental and rarely find myself disliking something I was once fond of—unless serious circumstances are at play (i.e., Made in Abyss or Ruruoni Kenshin). Although a series, like Naruto, may no longer be my favourite and may have ended a long time ago, I still value it because it has been an integral part of my journey thus far. While I no longer write fanfiction for the series and don't post about it often, I still enjoy the series and occasionally rewatch episodes. Even if a series disappoints me by not ending in the way I envisioned, I can still appreciate the parts of the series I once enjoyed—for example: Bleach, Attack on Titan, Boku no Hero Academia, and Jujutsu Kaisen.

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-> The Division Between F/M pairings and M/M and F/F pairings

Even after I got into M/M ships, I never developed an outright distaste for F/M ships—so I can't fully relate to your experiences. However, there was a period when I found a lot of the main pairings in newer shounen anime dull since I felt like they were unimaginatively rehashing the same conventions. I think that a lot of the growing disinterest in F/M pairings is because of their heavy reliance on overused tropes and dynamics, which render them uninspired and monotonous. Whereas if one is new to M/M and F/F pairings, naturally the feeling of excitement and renewal returns. LGBTQ+ media and pairings also tend to naturally subvert traditional tropes and conventions found in F/M media by rendering gender power dynamics irrelevant and going against societal expectations. After watching several BL anime, I began growing dissatisfied with a lot of the problematic tropes and noticed the tropes and dynamics were also growing repetitive—which is part of the reason I started getting into danmei.

I suspect that a lot of the disdain for F/M ships among BL and GL fandoms is due to the unfavourable treatment they receive from F/M rival shippers—especially in shounen fandoms. Although this may not be the reason for your aversion to many F/M pairings—I still wanted to highlight this, as I oftentimes haven't been treated well by rival shippers in certain fandoms... Fortunately, I once read a post on this issue that made me aspire to be better. Although I can't recall it exactly, the gist of it was that disparaging F/M pairings because you prefer M/M or F/F ones make you just as bad as those who attack you for your preferences.

I decided that if I wanted fandom spaces to be comfortable for me, then I should start by striving to contribute to the solution rather than continuing to perpetuate the problem. All in all, I enjoy watching both shoujo and BL anime since collectively they provide me with the variety I crave. However, I'd greatly appreciate adaptations of works that are more diverse when it comes to implementing and subverting classic tropes. Ultimately, rather than focusing on the genders when I decide to support a pairing, I focus on their canonical interactions, relationship dynamics, aesthetics, and tropes. With time, I hope you'll be able to embrace the ships you like—whether they're M/M, F/F or F/M—without feeling guilty or uncertain.

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-> The Apothecary Diaries

The theme of feminism is implemented into the series so well and refreshingly that I can't help but want to talk about it any chance I get. Maomao is definitely one of my favourite characters too, though I'm sure everyone reading this knows that given she was #1 on my favourite female characters post.

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-> My thoughts on Skip and Loafer & Yakuza Fiancé:

I haven't really spoken on either series since they fall into that weird middle ground, as in I don't dislike them but they're also not one of my favourites... Also, before I go into detail about my thoughts, I'd like to emphasise that these are my personal opinions based solely on the first season of each anime. I understand that you can't always determine a series' true worth based solely on its anime—so if I'm wrong about some of my assumptions, please don't go off on me...

* Some rapid-fire questions to gauge my thoughts on both series:

Did I finish the series? Yes.

Is this series one of my top picks for a sequel season? No.

Would I watch a hypothetical season 2? Yes.

Would I be automatically convinced to read the manga if we never get a sequel season? No.

Would I read fanfiction of the series unprompted? Probably not.

Would I produce creative content for the series (i.e. fanfiction or edits)? No.

Would I consider making posts on the series (i.e. analysis, reviews, etc...)? Maybe.

Would its main pairing make my top 50 ships list? Probably not.

Would I recommend the series to others? Probably yes.

Would I buy merchandise from the series if possible? No.

> Yakuza Fiancé:

This series really wasn't what I was expecting... Although in hindsight I realise that is mostly because before I started the series, I was under the false impression that it was a shoujo or josei series when it was in fact a seinen. I still don't quite know what to think about it... The aspects of the series I liked were the music, voice-acting, art style and protagonist, while the aspects I didn't like were its male lead, romance and pacing.

The opening theme song was one of my favourites of last year and I still listen to it pretty often—for reference, it's done by the same band that did the second opening theme of Noragami. The ending song was pretty good too.

Although a lot of people didn't like the series' unique art style, I quite liked how different it was and thought it complemented the series' ambience well.

I liked Yoshino and thought she was an interesting protagonist. However, I feel like I wasn't able to get as good of an understanding of her as I would've liked as some of her decisions and traits felt somewhat inconsistent and ambiguous. Whether this is because I just haven't seen enough of the series or because of something else, I don't know.

As biased as it may seem, a large part of how much I like a ship and/or romance series is tied to how much I like the male lead. I personally just wasn't charmed by Kirishima. A lot of his actions, especially towards Yoshino, just seemed insincere, incomprehensible and uncomfortable to me. Consequently, throughout the series, I couldn't find myself wholeheartedly supporting them as a ship. To be honest, I kinda prefer Shouma with Yoshino...

The pacing and plotline of the series were a little too all over the place to me. I felt as if they were trying to do too much but at the same time didn't do anything. I would've preferred for there to be a more obvious goal with each little event tying into a bigger picture.

With a more consistent narrative, there would be more consistent character exposition and development which would culminate into a more authentic romance.

> Skip and Loafer:

In all honesty, I don't really remember this series well... I remember some isolated plot beats and the two leads but not much else. If I have time, I want to rewatch it before season 2 airs. From what I remember it was wholesome and upbeat in tone with some more serious issues being alluded to but never fully explored... I thought was decent but never overly attached to it as it never stood out to me the way similar series did. I couldn't help but feel that I wanted more from the series than it was giving me... Personally, I'm biased towards shoujo and josei romance series rather than shounen and seinen ones. I find that shoujosei series oftentimes portrays emotions, themes and character development in a way that is more complex and multi-faceted than their shounen and seinen counterparts. I'm also not a fan of the excessively blatant and oftentimes demeaning fanservice found in the latter two genres. In that sense, Skip and Loafer is one of the few shounen/seinen romance series I like and is probably my 4th favourite. That being said if I were to include shoujosei series in the rankings it probably wouldn't make the top 20 (but might make the honourable mentions).

I liked how quirky, steadfast and goal-orientated Mitsumi is. I would've liked it if she was given a little more character development though.

Shima is okay but I felt like I wasn't able to get a good enough grasp on his character because of the duality of his personality. I would've liked to see more of his perspective and background in the anime. I'm sure he is probably more complex in the manga but I'm just reviewing the anime here.

The main pairing was decent, but I have this nagging feeling that the disconnect between them is only going to grow, making me hesitant to fully commit to shipping them. I felt that the series went above and beyond to show how different they are but didn't do enough to show how much commonality they have.

I would've liked for the series' themes and characters to be developed a little more.

The fluidity of the animation was nice, but I thought the art style and character designs were a bit bland.

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-> Conclusion:

For I while I held onto the misogynistic belief that shoujosei romance anime could never compare to shounen and seinen action anime... However, I eventually recognised that pandering to others was only preventing me from enjoying the diverse range of content across genres... I'm glad that you've decided to embrace your liking for both different demographics and types of ships; knowing that I've contributed towards that makes me happy. I am consistently astounded that anyone bothers to read my ramblings, let alone be inspired by and learn from them...

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Thanks for all of your support! P.S. As you know, the ships you mentioned are all among my favourites, so I used them when selecting the gifs to break up my ramblings haha...

[ladykyriaa]

Lmfao I just saw a KnH discourse on twt if this goes on I fear I might start joining soon