#malkuvoitenoldoran : Fingolfin | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

malkuvoitenoldoran · 4 years ago

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Turgon being whipped info

"Turgon wondered what exactly he had done for this particular incident" this has happened to him before?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//That depends on the timing of it. Any time First Age or onward yes, before that no. There was some stuff that I headcanon happened right after crossing the ice and after Fingon’s return with Maedhros that landed Turgon in the situation, where he was whipped, a time or two but it was very discreet and Idril was kept amused by Fingon and Aredhel while it was happening.

Basically Turgon is grieving, angry, and found out that it was all pretty much pointless because Feanor had already died. His father while also in the same boat would probably have laid out some laws to deal with the many people that were in a similar state of needing someone to rage at but not having that, and Turgon fell prey to a few of them.

Later his father discovered that he had in fact known where Fingon had been and not only did nothing to stop him but didn’t bother trying to help him either. So while still angry and frightened about that he gives the order for Turgon to be whipped for it. Then later there is another off the record event but that time it’s Maglor that has it done and that’s the end of it because only three people know about that one.

Is the one Maglor has done a secret or is it ok to ask about? Also, what kinds of laws does Turgon run afoul of?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//The one with Maglor is a secret. As for what Turgon kept running afoul of was mostly to do with his Feanorian cousins. Without Feanaro around they were the next ones to focus anger on and Nolofinwe was trying to get peace between both groups despite his own frustration with the situation so anything to do with them would have to be carefully done and while Turgon does eventually let go of his anger with them at that time it had grown so he ended out being punished for saying the wrong things at the wrong time, mostly it was around his family but there were times it was otherwise and Nolofinwe was one of the Princes and a leader so the punishment still happened and the example of the Prince’s family being treated the same as others was made.

Was Turgon the only one to run into trouble with the rules that way, or Fingon also? What kinds of things was Turgon saying around his family that were forbidden?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//Fingon did not run into that trouble. Nor did the rest of the family because while they had lost it was not the same as Turgon had. A lot of it was Nolofinwe put in place laws to prevent too many from speaking poorly about the Feanorians since they were still the rulers of the Noldor. The truth was one thing but saying more, especially about their characters in a negative light, was not really allowed or wanted at that time so Nolofinwe simply linked it to something that could seem treasonous against them since Maedhros was the rightful King and Maglor was his regent at the time.

In time the laws were abolished and things got sorted out differently but considering how Feanaro reacted to a rumor Nolofinwe didn’t want to take any chances with how his sons would react to more. Yes as family they had a right to speak about the Feanorians and the changes they had happen but again it wasn’t helping encourage peace and was a risk for treason particularly in public.

Edit: I say not the same as Turgon had because while Elenwe was like family for them Turgon had a traditional wedding bond with her which meant that her death tore away part of his very spirit leaving him wounded that way in addition to his grief and guilt for not saving her.

Where did Fingolfin get the idea for whipping as punishment? Did it happen in Valinor?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//Okay so headcanon here. Yes and no. It's an idea that Morgoth tried to introduce. He presented it as a way to get animals to behave better, they often didn't like the sound so they would try to avoid it. Somewhere along the way someone used it on someone else as a weapon for training and that's where the potential for it to be a painful yet non-lethal punishment came to light. Still it was never actually used as such in Valinor. In fact it wasn't until after meeting the Sindar and the Nandor (the Avari) that it started being used as such. They saw it as 'better a little pain now then death or greater pain later', something that became more pronounced and well known when Maedhros started using that method of severe offenses. Of course even with the origin of the idea known it was still something they could use and a way to keep everyone in line well.

Why meeting the Sindar and the Nandor specifically?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//The Nandor would pick it up first, to a people without metal weapons whips would be very useful even if they won't kill things. Then because of how close the peoples are it would just sort of bleed over to the Sindar then from there to the others. The dwarves wouldn't share their systems of punishments unless they know the person or people well and men hadn't been known then so it would be elves seeing other elves doing something. Of course there would be rules in place to prevent permanent harm or long lasting harm but still it would be a thing.

Who of the Finweans had it happen to them first? Was it frightening the first time? What was the first time it happened at all like?

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//The first time it happened at all would have been in Angband which obviously was frightening. The first time the Noldor saw it was very unnerving because previously they had only seen it done near others or to animals, only rarely there because of the overall respect for life that they have. Turgon was the first of the Nolofinweans and Arafinweans. It was Curufin that was the first of the Feanorians.

What do you mean by 'the first time it happened at all would have been in Angband'? What was the first time the Noldor saw it? How did they go from finding it unnerving to deciding to do it? What happened with Curufin? (This is so interesting! You have great hcs!)

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//The first time at all is exactly that. The very first time anyone was whipped was in Angband, before anyone else ever even heard of it or began to vaguely think about such things Morgoth was using whips to torture elves that he captured.

The first time the Noldor saw it was as a punishment for a younger hunter who nearly got his teacher, the only other person present, killed for the third time. He had already been taught the correct way to handle the situation and had been through several similar ones without issue so it was a reminder to act based on what he learned or else the pain he felt would be greater and less able to be tended.

The first few to see it were surprised and concerned but after the explanation they understood. Unlike in Aman things were less safe in Beleriand, they had already learned that, and so making sure that no one would get caught and killed or that if they did it was not from failing to learn what they could made sense. It then became something they realized could be done for things that could cause exile or other such punishments, not to the point where they were no longer used as punishments but so that there were far fewer times they were used.

With Curufin it was a case of he was so angry following Feanor’s death and Maeedhros’ capture that he spoke things he shouldn’t at the wrong times. Things were already very unsettled with losing two kings so close together, Feanaro and Maedhros, then being left in the hands of someone they generally saw as weak or too soft and so people were quite ready to follow one of the others if they splintered away into factions. Curufin’s words would have been nearly treasonous normally but when spoken in front of the public or even the king’s councilors that could have completely destroyed any stability if left unpunished.

Anonymous asked:

Was it frightening for Turgon the first time it happened to him? For Curufin? Did having that happen not make Curufin more unhappy about maglor's leadership? (This continues to be so interesting!)

malkuvoitenoldoran answered:

//Turgon was unnerved by it. He wasn’t sure what to expect but he was not afraid per se, of course after it he was a bit afraid because of how much harm he knew it could cause but that was more for others and less for himself. Curufin was a little frightened because he had seen some scars from whippings and knew that it could be really truly painful but that was about it. As for how things played out between Curufin and Maglor it was a sense of mixed feelings for a while. Curufin was happy and relieved that Maglor would draw a line and stick to it since that was a worry, but he was also hurt and upset that he was the one that was punished like that. Ultimately things worked out between them but they were a little shaky for a few days right after that.

#this is from forever ago #but i thought I'd gather it all up nicely #and here it is #punishment tw #whipping tw #histories lost || headcanons #hidden strength || turucano

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