#manhwa discourse

[sylver-drawer]

I wish manhwa and WMMAP readers and glazers had the slightest bit of brain. Like yeah! The tropes WMMAP features are tropes now! But they weren’t tropes back then! That’s the damning thing about the Plutus vs Yunsul situation—WMMAP’s similarities with DOTE were way too damning at a time where the tropes weren’t as popular/made yet, and you wouldn’t find any stories like it. Even now, some of the plagiarized story elements are uncommon or rare!

You’d never find a story where the baby female lead’s deceased mom was a foreigner, first of all. You’d never find a story where the female lead’s maid/nanny had a connection to the female lead’s deceased mother—usually the supporting maid isn’t even an adult, they’re typically a peppy young teenager serving the child lead. In addition to that, I have NEVER read another story in the rofan genre where the half-sibling rival wasn’t actually a half-sibling, but the bastard of the evil relative raised to think they’re half-siblings with the lead. Like huh? That’s not even a trope—no other rofan stories have done this. You’re going to say all of these elements in a newly released story wouldn’t have you think of WMMAP right away? Like it’s not just the “oh it’s a tyrant’s daughter novel”, it’s literally that and every other similarity in addition to it!

And that’s not even going into the fact that what’s also uncanny is the writing itself! Athy was so beloved at the time because her behavior was ‘refreshing’—that in the genre of rofan back then, if there was a villainous/tyrant guardian, the female lead would react in fear but Athy reacted in anger, calling said oppressive tyrant bratty names. That’s one of WMMAP’s hallmarks—but even that came from DOTE first! The insults are the same! How do you even do that? How do you copy almost all of the integral setting, character, relationship, and plot elements down to throwaway insults and claim it was all original, that it was all a coincidence? Before the tropes even existed!

I can’t believe that. As a reader, and as a writer, that’s impossible. If it was one or two things, sure—but if it’s the things that are so integral to the story and characters in it that taking them away would drastically change the story, all of them combined, that’s not original.

Just because you like WMMAP better or reason that it’s more popular doesn’t suddenly make it ok or make the case not matter. Speaking of it not mattering, so many people are saying that it’s old news that got settled via trial, but it never did! Carrotoon and Spoon took to trial what I believe fans’ comments and harassment—but in regard to Yunsul and Plutus, there was never a trial specifically between them on the plagiarism. To this day, Yunsul and her team have never been contacted for a trial—and they still face comments in regard to their relationship with WMMAP making them out to be bad guys when they were the originals!

I wish manhwa readers could be adults. I wish manhwa readers could take a step back and squeeze into their tiny little brains that not everything is based on their view, and that there’s context that frames everything so much differently.

[mogamuncher]

I have lost the fucking plot.

[lyc4ris]

i’ve never read this manhwa before so i can’t comment on the actual story but i don’t rly get when people keep shitting on the anatomy of the fl and ml bc this is literally a smut manhwa

likeee ofc the fl is gonna have big boobs and have curves 😭😭 isn’t this the norm for most smut manhwas 💔 + manhwas in general don’t typically have super realistic anatomy so 🤷🏻‍♀️

maybe i’ve just been reading manhwas for too long so atp the body proportions/anatomy in manhwa doesn’t irk me too much as long as it still looks a bit realistic (but i draw the line when the fl is built like a child NO MAAM)

[bvnga-aprikot]

not a wmmap post but can i just say the way asm characters get shat on for the most ridiculous reasons is just so weird. like people have complained about how other female characters than the fl are so watered down and lack depth, but as soon as they see ohara von heinrich not invite shuri to the wedding because she genuinely believes it would just send her away and didn’t expect her to be brutally murdered AT ALL they act like she’s the mastermind behind her death??? there’s literally a panel of her reacting to her death and she doesn’t seem happy she was so distraught. and don’t get me started on shuri herself, the specific hate she gets is just so… have we read the same story. she was fourteen when her asshat family shipped her off to be married to a dude old enough to be her dad, because she looks like the dead empress….. i’m honestly glad i didn’t even witness all the hate she got i would be so mad.

[snapyourwrist]

ain’t no way Jinx fandom turn on potato THAT fast because he didn’t say anything…give bro a chance!? 😭 he was probably confused and didn’t wanna disrupt the match… he will most likely say something, why else would Mingwa have him be included. Jinx fandom stop being so fucking fast to assume challenge, go

[ultramarine-spirit]

honestly wmmap Tumblr is so boring now, nothing happens not even drama, anything.

I'll take boring over drama any day (sometimes, manhwa fandom's drama shows up on my "for you" page and dear god-), but yeah, without any manhwa updates, it's obvious that the fandom would die a little. I mean, it's been almost two years.

[gojuo]

sister i am the queen in this life, or also known as the poor man's the villainess lives twice

[0nelittlebirdtoldme]

Seeing TikTok and the reactions of ppl after chapter 34, it’s clear it’s their first contact with dark romance and noncon content and they’re going apeshit about it insulting the author, saying she’s romanticizing rape and that she’s disgusting and anyone who enjoys Jinx is disgusting as well.

But they’ll still come back next chapter to see what happens in the story. Tbh I enjoy dark content and non/dubcon, have been reading about it for years now, but the “omg that’s gross whoever wrote this is disgusting” is the visceral reaction I first had before I admitted to myself I was actually into that. I also think that’s the case with a lot of these people, either that or they love torturing themselves coming back every 10 days. Jae violently SA’d Dan in the first few chapters. Chapter 12 was a thing. I know chapter 34 was a lot, it shocked me as well, but it’s not like people didn’t know Jaekyung was a piece of shit. I guess it’s mostly people loving Jaekyung for his redeemed version that doesn’t exist yet, holding onto the fact that he’s gonna get better while refusing to acknowledge how horrible he is now.

I’m just here to see Jaekyung be horrible tbh because that’s why I read Jinx. He can do worse. I want to see him grovel later, but now he can do whatever he wants.

.

[drosophilamania]

YES. YES. YES. YES. I read the boyfriends webtoon and it was literally FINE. Then I go on youtube and I see everyone unanimously DRAGGING IT THROUGH THE FUCKING MUD. And I’m… distraught!!!!

“It’s infantalizing men!!!” “It’s sexualizing men!!!” “The dialogue is disgusting and there is no plot!!!!” “The polyamorous relationship is unrealistic!!!”

It’s literally one of the only BLs on that godforsaken app THAT IS WRITTEN BY A QUEER MAN. They’re talking about the damn piece like it’s literally satan, when that’s not only every piece on webtoon but also the boyfriends webtoon was one of VERY FEW BLs that featured a polyamorous relationship in a positive light, AND ALSO followed the laws of consent.

I literally COULD NOT tell you how many popular pieces on that site are just sfw fetish pieces featuring two men written for and by women, and to the general public all of that garbage was fine, (which tbh I guess it is?) but here comes a man making his own garbage with more lighthearted themes than all these other webtoons and THAT’S the piece that everyone decides to crusade.

Like I don’t see anyone talking about what happened to That Awkward Magic or any of the other countless semi-successful webcomics, but I hear EVERYONE talking about Boyfriends just because it’s a queer lit piece that isn’t every single audience’s cup of tea. I see tons of videos of people moving the Boyfriends graphic novel at BNN into the horror section so that they can post it for views on tt, yt, insta… but then these same people refuse to critically discuss SVSSS or killing stalking (big genre jump there I know but those are the two big ones) or even jinx.

It makes me feel INSANE. The only critiques I’ll listen to about the comic anymore are those about the character’s races compared to their skin tones. Even then, chances are high those critiques are coming from someone who reads mass produced manhwa like it’s their only source of sustenance, and never discuss the colorism there. We need to stop dogpiling refrainbow they are just some random man.

I will literally never forgive the internet for what they did to refrainbow and his webtoon. people harass this man because his webtoon was a little cringe. and now I will never be able to read my comics about silly little gay boys in peace without someone being like “ohhhh!!! that’s problematic!!!!” bro let queer people write shit that doesn’t have an inherent message, we need trashy comfort content

[wanderlust-in-my-soul]

The many faces of one-sidedness

I love Heesu in Class 2. But before I delight you with my own opinion on the series, let me tell you that I haven't read the manhwa and am only referring to the series here and perhaps a little discourse on expectations and the shift in the viewership of bl series will follow. I just know I can't write meta without digress.

During the broadcast of the series, I noticed how divided opinions were. While some were crying after the original source and didn't even want to give the series a chance, on the other hand there was a debate about whether it was a good bl series or not and what it should be. I don't understand why adaptations can't be seen as a medium in their own right. While the manhwa forms the basic framework on which the story is built, the adaptation is perfectly allowed to go its own way and use its own motifs, build its own storylines that fit better with a filmed story. An adaptation is still its own story with its own story being told, because a one-to-one transfer will mostly never work. @bengiyo wrote a fantastic meta about it! And if you want to read why Heesu in Class 2 is a lovely queer kdrama, go and check out @lurkingshan and her breakdown of the whole story. But well, I already digress.

Heesu in Class 2 was such a good story about the different ways and difficulties to have a one-sided crush. Take Heesin, for example. Heesin feels like she falls in love with men every other day and always confesses it immediately. According to her logic, you can only get over a crush if you confess. This makes her life both very simple and very complicated. She contributes to the daily, loving chaos in the Lee family. She suffers and loves with all her heart. And it seems like it's no big deal to confess that you like your crush. She seems like the opposite of Heesu, whose queerness doesn't allow him to love and suffer so carefree. He suffers quietly without confiding in anyone, while Heesin can celebrate her heartbreak without expecting anything but pity.

Heejeong is the responsible one. The one who gives up her dreams and her love because of fear. Sometimes loving means daring. You jump into something uncertain and make yourself vulnerable in front of another person. Heejeong wanted to study overseas with her boyfriend, but she got cold feet and lost out on an uncertain future. Instead, she lives her 9-5 everyday life with her siblings, in which nothing really exciting happens. And it doesn't have to be to lead a fulfilling life. But she is not happy. She is still hanging on to her dream and she should be able to at least try to live it or live the life she has dreamed of.

Fear can be a major obstacle. Heesu gives her the advice to do what she wants to do. As the most responsible character in the household, portrayed as the most grown-up, she has so far taken on the role of the parents and moved further and further away from her dream self. She has kept a part of her personality, of her self and her past a secret from her siblings. In the end, she realised that this is her life, which she can only shape on her own. She is the architect of her own happiness. Her unrequited love is not even so much for her ex-partner, who she still sees and who is still a big part of her life, but rather with her missed self that she has always dreamed of having. She has spoken out and faced her fear. She wants to be happy for her own sake and to do this she has to overcome her fear and find herself.

Heejae. For me, Heejae epitomises what it's like when the boundaries between romantic love and friendship become blurred and you're caught in a world in between. Being in love with your best friend is one thing. But being in a relationship with someone you love as a best friend is something else. Just as friendship can turn into love, love can turn into friendship and the process of realising this is often difficult and lengthy. You have got used to each other. You feel comfortable. You think you have everything. But her partner has noticed how things have shifted, that something is missing at the end. So he breaks up with her. He no longer wants to deal with this unrequited love. That's not enough for him. He wants to be loved. Loving as a friend is a wonderful thing, but for most people it is no substitute for romantic love. And sometimes it's not easy to realise that your feelings have changed, especially when you've been carrying and cherishing them for so long.

If you want to read more about these siblings you can read An Ode to HeeSu's Sisters by the lovely @soypim.

The sisters are representations of parts of Heesu. Heesin is the antithesis of Heesu. As a heterosexual woman, she can make confessions of love without receiving direct backlash. At best, she is remembered fondly and makes the person feel good even if the feelings are not reciprocated. She stands in the same spot as Chanyeong and Jiyu. It's so easy for heterosexuals to show their vulnerability. Heesu can't do that. In a homophobic society, it's not easy to tell someone you like them. It might not be remembered as a nice memory, it might be seen as an attack, an event that has negative connotations. It's so much harder for Heesu to be so open in his world. And the series manages to realise this so incredibly well.

Heejeong on the other hand stands for the missed moments, for the what-ifs, for the fact that sometimes you have to dare to take the next step if you don't want to stay trapped in the black hole of yourself forever. It's interesting that Heesu is the one to give her the advice to decide for herself, for what makes her happy, and that she shows him again that this is possible by taking a step into her own, hopefully happy future. You can decide for yourself and that's good. Heesu can also decide for himself and decide not to step into the black hole, but to pull himself out of the swamp and follow his dream. Everyone has their own black holes. Everyone deals with them differently. But trying to be happy should be possible for everyone. And even if you decide to stay in your 9-5 or, well, in your closet, that is totally fine, too. No one should stop you from doing what you want, but it is always good when there are people who support you and cherish the person you are.

Heejae. Heejae is just one step ahead of Heesu. She had her best friend as a partner and didn't realise that love had changed. She wouldn't and couldn't let go and had to wait for her partner to break up with her to realise what was going on. Heesu is caught in a similar dilemma, in love with his best friend and at some point, no longer able to distinguish between romantic and platonic love because it has always been like that. Sometimes you get lost in your feelings. Sometimes you don't realise the shift. Sometimes you need an outsider or the other person to realise this.

One thing I didn't understand is the resentment Chanyeong got. Yes, he had a lot of screentime. But that was perfectly ok. He was not only part of the side-couple, but also one of the most important people in Heesu's life. His best friend and secret crush for years. And the perfect parallel between his own heterosexual world and the queer reality in which Heesu moves. While Chanyeong had this secret crush on Summer without realising it was Jiyu, he breaks dozens of girls' hearts when they realise that he doesn't reciprocate their feelings. For Chanyeong, it's so natural for someone to confess their feelings to him and always have, and his approach to his relationship with Jiyu is also simple. Boy likes girl. Girl likes boy. End of story. And while the two move fearlessly together in their world and bring out the best in each other, Heesu stands alone. He has found a relatively safe anchor with Seungwon and is pretty sure that he would accept him, considering the fact that he has two mothers, but he still has to go through everything alone. He doesn't have the freedom that Chanyeong has.

And while some people have certainly been waiting for Heesu to finally confess his feelings to Seungwon, or vice versa, he first must make peace with Chanyeong. Because this friendship is threatening to drift apart. The friendship is one-sided. And they both realise that. To save them, Heesu has to be honest. And Chanyeong is allowed to react the way he did. He is allowed to be overwhelmed. He is allowed to not know how to deal with the fact that his best friend was in love with him for a long time. It's okay to be human. The important thing is that he talks to Heesu in the end and gives them a chance to readjust their status as best friends. Because Heesu is Chanyeong's best friend, and he wants to be that for Heesu too. It hurts when you feel like you're not the safe haven you always thought you were. It is allowed to have feelings. It is allowed to express them and it was bitterly necessary to do so. And it was just as necessary for Heesu to tell him the truth, because only then did the two of them have the chance to redefine their friendship. It was only through this openness that the one-sided friendship could become an equal friendship again.

Heesu. He says himself that Chanyeong and his unrequited love were his black hole. He had to face it in order to free himself from it, to free himself from the attraction of this well known crush. Because only after he's done that can he be free for the new feelings for Seungwon. I thought it was so great to see how these different infatuations manifested themselves in Heesu. With Chanyeong it was so well-rehearsed, so normal, that in the end he couldn't even know what it was like to just be Chanyeong's friend. The feelings blended together and became a daily mask for Heesu, which he knew exactly how to wear. For Seungwon, on the other hand, these feelings are new. He is helplessly at the mercy of his insecurities, the butterflies and all these new feelings.

I enjoyed seeing him like that so much. And I was happy that he was allowed to be angry with Seungwon. I could understand how he felt so well. ‘Was it fun?’ Oh, I felt that! ‘Do you know how much I struggled by myself?’ Heesu thought he had found a safe place with Seungwon where he could be who he is. And then, in the end, he finds himself alone. Heesu is hurt and finally lets it out. The boy who wanted to please everyone and had advice for everyone, who everyone confided in, but who is alone with his problems has had enough. And it bursts out of him. Fortunately, Seungwon finally manages to open his mouth, apologise and clear up the misunderstanding. And in the end, although not everyone is perfectly happy, they are on the way to a happier future. And every single character was important not only to write a good story, but also to portray the characters genuinely and realistically.

I love my bl bubble and I wouldn't want to miss it. I enjoy watching two boys fall in love and kiss in a world of candy floss and rose-coloured glasses. But I don't forget my roots either. And apart from the whole bl bubble, I think it's great to watch a series from time to time in which queer people are embedded in everyday life and you realise how different experiences in everyday life can be. How difficult it is to move as a queer person in a heteronormative world and how difficult it can be to do the seemingly simplest things for others. Heesu in Class 2 is not a bromance, but a realistic portrayal of queer youth in a society where they can be lucky that people think they are only very bromance-coded when they go to school arm in arm. In other societies, even this gesture would be unthinkable. And as beautifully simple as the bl bubble usually is, I think it's good that such soft tones also exist, which can bring life and the beauty of love in all its tones closer to a larger audience and allow a society to grow up that is more value-free, unprejudiced and open. And an adaptation of a well-known and loved story is the perfect try to give this topic a bigger audience.

I've noticed over the last few months that the bl bubble is more interested in explicit scenes than well-told stories. Why bother with a story in which the protagonists don't even kiss? Why settle for such a bromance when you can just watch two good looking guys make out, fuck the plot. And I'm not saying anything against an interlude of honey on the carpet, it has its appeal, but that doesn't mean I deny a show and its character its queerness just because there's no kissing. Sometimes the quiet sounds are the ones that need to be heard. Sometimes it's the quiet tones that have the most impact. Sometimes it's the quiet sounds that make you understand what it's like outside your own bubble and what difficulties there actually are.

If I only consume media on one side of the spectrum, then I only have a limited field of vision of everything around me. And I understand that not every type of story is to everyone's taste, and that's a good thing. Otherwise it would be pretty boring. But every now and then you should take your head out of your bubble and look around the world.  And just because something is not to your liking doesn’t mean it is bad or not well written or not worth to be told.

If you need some inspiration for some queerness in kdramas, @lurkingshan and @twig-tea gave us all a very detailed History of Queer Representation in Modern Kdrama. Thank you for that!

[e-on-edge]

It’s that time again…

Why Caleb/MC Are Not Incestuous

AKA: Your Casual Language Around Abuse Is Ticking Me Off

Tw: SA, Incest, Pseudocest, Grooming, adult language. This is personal.

1. Lets open our dictionary please

Incest: Sexual relations between people classed as being too closely related to marry one another (e.g., parent, child, sibling, or grandchild).

Legally, in most U.S. states, this is a crime.

Point blank: Caleb and MC are not related.

• Not by blood.

• Not by law.

• Not in any way that would make their relationship illegal or incestuous.

So no matter how anyone tries to twist the definitions—this is not incest.

2. Pseudocest ≠ Incest

You’ll often see the term “pseudocest” thrown around online—especially in porn, smut, or fandom discourse. It means: “Looks like incest, but it’s not technically incest because they’re not biologically related.”

Is it in the dictionary? No. But is it everywhere? Yeah—especially in step-sibling porn or taboo fanfics. That’s why some people are calling Caleb and MC’s relationship: pseudocest. Which is technically correct - definition wise.

But here’s the deal:

• The “brother/sister” label is performative—given to them by the world, not by biology or choice (Caleb makes it clear he is not MC’s big bro, in all translations of the game).

• If it makes you uncomfortable, that’s valid but let’s not conflate narrative trope with actual incest.

3. Why This Matters to Me

Now, here’s why I’m heated—and why this isn’t just internet semantics to me.

I’m a survivor. I was abused by my stepbrother growing up. He was encouraged by my stepmother.

• It started young.

• It never “progressed” to sex, but it was still abuse.

• I was groomed and gaslit by a boy who watched step-sibling porn.

For years, I thought what he did to me was okay. That it was twisted love, even if it made me feel so despised. For years after, I couldn’t trust men at all. And I’m still picking up the pieces today.

So yeah—I get upset when I see people casually glorifying incest/pseudocest in LADS spaces. Because I know firsthand how dangerous that fantasy can be when it leaks into real life.

4. This Isn’t Just About One Game

Let’s zoom out.

• Yes, pseudocest is popular in Eastern media—especially anime, manhwa, and J-dramas.

• Yes, it’s often used to create a “taboo” vibe, while sidestepping legal and moral boundaries.

• No, that doesn’t mean it’s healthy or harmless.

People defending Caleb/MC as “incest” because they like the kink? That’s one thing. I don’t agree that my trauma should be your kink, let me be frank. But others are vilifying Caleb or canceling players entirely because they misunderstand what’s actually going on. That’s not fair—and it’s not factual.

Worse?

Some are even upset that the translations toned down the incestuous language. Like the taboo was the selling point. That’s when I lose my patience.

5. Let’s Be Clear

• Caleb and MC’s relationship is not incestuous.

• It was intentionally written to flirt with the taboo, but not cross the legal or moral line.

• If people want to explore incest/pseudocest tropes in fiction, that’s their business—but don’t rewrite reality to defend your kinks.

• And for survivors like me, this stuff isn’t just provocative—it’s personal. Be respectful.

Finally —just to throw this out there loud and clear:

It’s about the danger of romanticizing abuse under the disguise of “just fiction” or “taboo storytelling.”

And I’m tired. I’m tired of the discourse. I’m tired of having to explain why this isn’t cute or edgy—it’s harmful. I’m tired of people weaponizing fiction to excuse real-world trauma.

Fiction can explore the dark, the taboo, the uncomfortable—but that doesn’t mean we throw out reason, morality, or basic decency.

Love and Deepspace is not real.

We love our lads, sure—we can joke, defend, even obsess. But twisting the narrative to persecute players or push some weird incest-baiting agenda? That’s not fandom.

So please—just drop it.

Let facts be facts.

Not incest.

[commajade]

ahh jeong nyeon drama discourse among korean lesbians is so complex because the original manhwa interrogates gender and represents lesbian genders and lesbian love on such a real and straightforward level that a lot of them feel betrayed and refuse to watch it at all. for lesbian manhwa fans taking out buyong and mr. goh make the whole drama pointless and casting lesbian icon kim taeri even more disappointing.

but at the same time it makes complete sense for the drama to cut those characters because it only runs for 12 episodes and all the top tier actors in the cast are spending 1-3 years learning pansori and traditional acting and dance and martial arts, the show Has to prioritize talking about the artform and exploring these characters. and the way that okgyeong is depicted is absolutely fresh and radical and having such a deeply feminist storyline that's completely uninterested in men is so fresh and radical. and really risky with the current political climate. the drama could not have been this successful without the changes they made and the manhwa writer and artist love the drama and now thousands more people are interested in female gukgeuk and in reading the original manhwa so i feel like it had to be done.

if the political climate was different and the drama was allowed to be like 26 episodes or something they would've kept buyong and mr. goh in and it would've been a better drama for sure. but for what it is i'm personally satisfied? we have to see how they handle the plot to the end.

[emotionallychargedtowel]

Hee Su in Class 2: attempting to account for my biases

Before Hee Su in Class 2 was finished airing, I was already hearing really disparate things. There seemed to be a relationship between loving the manhwa and disliking the adaptation, which makes sense given it seemed there were a lot of differences between the two. There was also some praise, some of it oddly effusive. A good friend of mine who loved the manhwa was disappointed, but thought that without the manhwa version of the story in my head and given the sorts of shows I tend to like, I might actually like it a lot more than she did. There were also some pretty rude things being said by some of the show’s fans, including some people I don’t get along with. At the same time, some people I really respect had some specific and interesting praise for it. I had reasons to be biased in both directions, but reasons to find fault with the series seemed to be predominating somewhat. 

Speaking of bias, the discourse around the show’s reception focused on bias quite a bit. Amongst both those who found fault with it and those who championed it there were those who acknowledged that encountering one version or the other first probably biased them in favor of that version, a widespread tendency with media that I imagine most of us are familiar with. Others didn’t do much, if anything, to own their own bias, but were quick to point out what they saw as bias in others. 

In a lot of ways, it was this discussion of bias that most piqued my interest in watching the series. I just kept wondering what I would make of it. I decided to find out, but I wanted to stop and think first about how I could try to lessen the degree to which my biases might impact my perceptions of it. I knew I couldn’t entirely prevent having biases, because that’s not humanly possible. After all, I wrote my dissertation on cognitive biases! I also wasn't about to bend over backwards in these efforts, since the end result would be a tumblr post, not a new discovery in the cognitive science of media viewing. So I decided to give it a try, but without going to a ton of trouble.

Taking measures to try to get a more genuine reaction

Here’s what I did. I wrote down what I thought I remembered hearing about the show beforehand, so that I could account for and be open about any pre-existing ideas. Then I wrote notes while I watched each episode, to capture my initial reactions before I had a chance to look at the whole gestalt, which is a point at which I (and I imagine most other people) seem to be more susceptible to motivated reasoning or the influence of others. 

I also avoided any new information about differences between the manhwa and the series. (I barely remembered anything about the differences to begin with.) I figured that since I had very little idea what the differences were between the manhwa and the series, any bias in favor of my friend’s point of view (that the manhwa was preferable) would be mitigated by the fact that 99% of the details I might like or dislike could just as easily be direct from the manhwa as invented for the series. I couldn’t exactly be biased against show elements that were exclusive to the adaptation if I didn’t know which elements those were. 

I also tend to have a pretty strong bias in favor of the first version of something I encounter. As I said, I think that’s a nearly universal bias, but I get the impression I have a stronger tendency in that direction than some people. I thought that tendency might help to balance pro-series views against any existing anti-series leanings I might have. 

Here’s what I remembered (or thought I remembered) reading or hearing about the show before I started watching it: 

The show is decidedly different from the manhwa Early on, show Hee Su does something that might be out of character for manhwa Hee Su, something at least somewhat crappy—maybe he tells a lie? The show might feature more conflict The show characters and/or their relationships might be more complex The show may have more hetero romance? Various straight people experiences might be metaphors for queer experiences? Rose said she didn’t like the pacing, thought it was too BL for a non-BL and not BL enough for a BL. 

What I thought while I was watching

When I was done watching, I re-read all of my notes. I’m going to include a condensed version of them below, but since they’re still a bit long, I’ll summarize here first. 

I found Hee Su really hard to relate to right away. He made me anxious, but I didn’t find myself feeling much else about him. I appreciated the production values of the show, including the fancy opening sequence, but since the show wasn’t evoking much emotion in me, they seemed empty and pointlessly slick. I found Chan Young and Ji Yu rather hard to relate to since they were both these perfect, attractive, talented kids who were popular without even trying, and found their interactions more interesting when they were arguing and flirting than when they actually started dating.

The show included a lot of low-key meanness that wore on me. I could tell a lot of work had gone into weaving the space metaphor into the series, and I appreciated the effort and the consistency, but it didn’t feel meaningful to me. I kept hoping that things would change and I’d relate more to Hee Su. I noticed how a lot of stylistic choices made the series feel more like a typical kdrama than any other BL I’d seen before, but much of that seemed arbitrary and superficial.

It bothered me that Hee Su seemed to forget all about Chan Young once he stopped having feelings for him, immediately warming up to Seung Won after finding out Chan Young was taken. I thought this made him seem fickle. I got tired of Hee Su spending so much of his time scolding Seung Won or bossing him around.

I found the show more engaging during the last two episodes, which was a relief. Things that were under the surface started to be stated directly, like the way Hee Su had always expected Chan Young to confide in him while not opening up in return, or the fact that Ji Yu ignored challenges Seung Won dealt with because of his sexuality. The fact that both Chan Young and Seung Won initially responded to Hee Su’s confessions blankly, then avoided him, made me incredibly tense without seeming justified (it was also a bit weird that the two scenes were so similar). During the finale, I found myself liking Hee Su more (and being more impressed by the actor playing him). I liked that Seung Won’s lying wasn’t brushed off as if it wasn’t a big deal. The ending could have been worse, but it felt sudden and anticlimactic. 

What I think now, looking back

To put it briefly, the series definitely had some merit, but it was also deeply flawed. Of course, individual tastes would also inevitably play a role in how different people feel about it. But I found it to be somewhat messily constructed and I suspect that adaptation choices had something to do with that. 

I've always had a hard time with media that includes a lot of cringe-inducing, uncomfortable moments. Think the original UK version of The Office, Curb Your Enthusiasm, or the roughest parts of Nathan Fielder’s oeuvre. HSiC2 gave me a similar tense, cringey feeling a lot of the time and didn’t pay off later in a corresponding way. A few times, I was tempted to stop watching in the middle of the series for this reason. That said, not everyone is as sensitive about this type of narrative element as I am, and some people particularly enjoy it.

It’s clear when I look at my unabridged notes that some episodes left me with very little to comment on, or resulted in commenting on trivialities or being repetitive compared to prior episodes. This is a clear sign that, for me at least, the series was too long and dragged at a number of points. Sometimes the show’s many kdrama trappings pulled me in, but this sometimes felt to me like it was cheating, temporarily raising my opinion of the series by reminding me of other kdrama experiences that I’d found more rewarding. 

This didn’t show up in my notes much, but I thought the show used music very effectively. However, that had a flip side as well. Sometimes I would start to get emotionally involved in a scene and then I would realize that I was responding to the music much more than I was to anything else, and I’d feel manipulated. Not that there’s anything wrong with using music to heighten the emotions brought out by certain scenes. Most—maybe all?—of my favorite kdramas do this. But with a good kdrama, it’s more reciprocal. The music makes the story and the performances more affecting, but the story and performances also make the music more affecting. Here, the interaction didn’t feel as reciprocal. 

When it comes to adding more of a hetero storyline to the show, I can’t compare the series story to the manhwa in any meaningful way, but I have to say that the hetero romance, while I really connected with it in some moments, largely didn’t hold my interest. Maybe my standards were higher than usual because I knew the straight romance storyline was added for the adaptation, but I actually think holding such a storyline to a higher standard under these circumstances makes sense. If you’re going to make a queer romance more straight, I want it to improve my viewing experience in a palpable way, and this storyline failed to do that. 

It doesn’t help my feelings about the show that it featured some interests of mine, but in a rather half-assed way. Supposed vinyl collectors who didn’t put outer sleeves on their albums, a beginning knitter who tackled a project in what appeared to be a tricky brioche stitch, and a conspicuous lack of psychology or counseling content when the main character is supposedly a habitual advice-giver and his love interest heads up a counseling club all contributed to some mildly disgruntled feelings on my part. But these aren’t things that would affect most other viewers in the same way. 

I think if the show weren’t quite so long, I might endorse it enough to recommend it to people. Honestly, I think the show would have been better if it had been half as long. As it stands, if a friend asked me if they should watch it, I’d be cautious. If they were a big kdrama fan who loved high school BLs and had a pretty equal interest in hetero and queer romance, I might tell them it was worth a try. Otherwise, I might advise skipping it, or putting it on the low-priority end of one's to-watch list.

One thing is for sure. This show is not playing some kind of 3-D chess that the typical viewer fails to understand, as has been suggested in some quarters. If it were, that wouldn’t actually be worthy of praise. If the real message of a show goes over the heads of most of its audience, it isn’t doing its job. But I don’t think such a message was even present. Rather, my guess is that this show is something much more commonplace in the world of BL: an adaptation of an existing story that takes liberties with the source material for its own purposes but doesn’t end up justifying them. It’s possible that if I had read the manhwa, I’d be particularly frustrated by missed opportunities resulting from these changes, but I haven’t (though perhaps I will one of these days). I can only speculate that the needlessly dragged-out, patchy quality of the series’ narrative seemed likely to be attributable to clumsy adaptation choices, because that's often what flawed adaptations look like.

That’s it for my commentary. My condensed episode notes are below for anyone who’s curious. Writing in brackets is summarizing what I wrote at the time rather than quoting it verbatim, mostly for the sake of length, occasionally for the sake of clarity.

Condensed episode notes

episode 1:

It’s not always easy to relate to Heesu here, he seems kind of self-aggrandizing.

[I liked that Seung Won was into psychology as that’s what I went to grad school for.] 

Heesu is so pent up that it’s really uncomfortable to watch. It’s a tricky combination when he’s acting in such fake ways. I know he has his reasons, of course! But this wouldn’t feel quite so unrelentingly tense if I found him a little more relatable.

[I asked myself if my lack of engagement was just due to being used to certain storytelling conventions.]

episode 2:

The tension from him jumping to conclusions about Seung Won’s crush is killing me. I wish he would be cute when he isn’t also being frustrating in a way that makes me panic slightly, but they always seem to happen together.

When Hee Su is being nice to his heartbroken sister, I think I like him better than I have for the whole series so far.

[I was excited to see Ji Yu’s records as I’m a vinyl collector.]

The production values on this show are quite nice, but since I’m not feeling much about the characters or the story, it ends up seeming meaninglessly slick. This could definitely change, though, and it’s better than it being shoddy.

episode 3:

[I noted that there were also records at Seung Won’s house.]

I like Hee Su arguing with Seung Won at the bus stop. Feels more genuine than a lot of his interactions.

Does Hee Su have to be so aggressive? It really makes me dislike him. It seems like all he does is scold Seung Won.

This conversation [Chan Young and Ji Yu] had…was really sweet and engaging. I’m finding myself rooting for them. That’s not inherently bad, but it’s annoying that the show is selling me on the straight romance and the queer romance is falling so flat—even though it had a two-episode head start, for the most part.

This show really is full of people treating each other like shit! It’s making it hard to even imagine enjoying the manhwa. I guess at least you could say that it’s realistic because real high school is depressing as fuck too. But still! The only person I really like here is Seung Won, and he keeps getting the shaft all the time. Chan Young and Ji Yu are kind of sweet together, but it’s hard for me to give a crap about two perfect little popular cuties.

episode 4:

This opening credits sequence really is cute and well-made, but it feels sterile. Which just reminds me of how much seems to be missing from the series so far.

Please let this episode be the one where I start being able to relate to Hee Su!

I’d root for these two hetero kids more if they weren’t so perfect and (seemingly) fortunate.

Still seriously liking Seung Won so much more than Hee Su.

Little stylistic things really do make this feel like a kdrama, but they’re kind of arbitrary. For example, the credits starting out with stills from big moments in the episode feels a lot like a kdrama. It’s interesting how that shifts my feelings a bit. But it’s not making me like the show more. If anything it points out how much less interesting I find it than most kdramas I’ve watched.

episode 5:

Space talk again! I don’t like it. I sometimes like these sorts of motifs/metaphors but this is somehow both heavyhanded and lacking in meaning.

Hee Su is so dense, it’s driving me bonkers. I know the irony is the point, but the fact that he gives people relationship advice is maddening. Speaking of which, are we ever going to see him giving anyone advice besides that one girl in the very beginning of the first episode? I guess you could count Seung Won as well, though it’s a bit different. Anyway, for something that’s part of the premise we sure don’t see him doing that very much. It’s annoying because I was looking forward to that aspect of the story.

Hee Su really has been pulling away from Chan Young. Is he so self-absorbed that he doesn’t understand that Chan Young relied on him all this time and might have a hard time if he just disappears? It seems like Chan Young has been a lot more loyal to Hee Su than he’s being to Chan Young.

Two moms! Hee Su’s relief that seemingly Seung Won won’t hate him if he finds out about him is pretty sweet and relatable. This is the most I’ve liked/rooted for Hee Su this whole time.

I liked Chan Young and Ji Yu better when they were fighting. It felt more authentic and interesting than now that they’re getting along and making confessions.

episode 6:

At least Ji Yu is pointing out that Seung Won lying isn’t OK.

Please show Chan Young that you’re a real friend, Hee Su. If you treat him like trash just because you’re falling out of love with him, I’ll really hate your guts.

I don’t love that Hee Su is only looking at Seung Won that way now that he knows Chan Young is taken.

episode 7:

Seriously, couldn’t we have seen at least a glimmer of interest on Hee Su’s side before he knew Chan Young had a (real) girlfriend? It makes him seem fickle and self-serving. I’m willing to believe he probably isn’t, but it’s frustrating that it looks this way.

[I ranted about Hee Su’s friend and his knitting. The pattern he chose was unrealistically challenging, the actor seemed to be faking it, and the girl who liked him downplayed how hard it is to put stitches back on the needle after frogging.]

It’s so convenient that Hee Su’s crush on Chan Young has just evaporated. Too convenient!

Man, no matter what’s going on with Hee Su, it manifests as scolding Seung Won.

episode 8:

I like the bit where Hee Su is putting on a show of not liking “the carrot” in front of Seung Won

I can’t help feeling for Chan Young, but when the scene changes, I’m like, “all this…because he has an extracurricular activity?” It strains credulity.

I do like this excuse for Hee Su and Ji Yu to bond. Hee Su is giving advice/being like a counselor for once!

Why not meet the carrot even if he likes someone? Even aside from the possibility that it IS the person he likes, wouldn’t it be mean to just ignore this person? He should face them. Maybe he will when the time comes. But even saying he won’t seems kind of gross to me.

episode 9:

[I liked the scene where Seung Won confronted Ji Yu about how confessing is more complicated for him than it is for her.]

Interesting that they’re doing the side-by-side sleepover thing with Hee Su and Chan Young.

“You know everything about me. Why does it feel like I don’t know anything about you?” Why is he only noticing this now?

“That’s why everyone comes to me for advice all the time.” Do they? All I’ve seen was one single occurrence.

Interesting that he’s telling him he liked him, rather than just coming out.

I liked this episode more than the others. It felt like there were stakes, Hee Su showed some authenticity. In this moment I feel like it was worth it to get this point, but I wonder if I’d feel that way if I could really feel the weight of all the time I had to spend to get here.

The space metaphors still feel stilted to me, though!

episode 10:

WTF, Chan Young! Running away like that is bound to scare the bejesus out of Hee Su.

Can’t believe Chan Young just let Hee Su go like that without saying something. Again!

Why is Seung Won being colder to Hee Su than before? It seems like he was handling everything and then he just wasn’t and there was nothing in particular that happened in between that I could discern.

In some ways, I like that they’re dealing with the past and HS’s feelings for CY. In others, it feels like such a weird pendulum swing.

Seung Won! You’re seriously going to let it end there? WTF! Why does everyone have to leave Hee Su hanging this way? Is it because he feels weird about having lied for so long? You’d think he could at least say something if that were the case.

It’s fair that there are real consequences for all the lying.

[I was afraid Seung Won hugging a crying Hee Su was the ending, which I wouldn’t have liked, then had the same worry about the next scene, so I was relieved that it ended with them having a sweet moment holding hands. But I didn’t find the ending very cathartic or satisfying.] 

[ace-and-the-rpg-horrors]

intro post!!

hiya, my name is Ace!! this is my main blog and it's quite unorganised, i just put whatever i feel like here. my silly blog for my silly thoughts <3

info undercut!!

tagging system?

most of my original posts have the tag "ace's random thoughts :)"

my art tag is "art by ace :)" though you're probably better off looking at my art blog

my replies are tagged "asks answered by ace :)"

where else can you find me?

on here, my art blog is ace-art-archive and i also run daily-pjsk-npcs

my AO3 is aceandtherpghorrors

my Project Sekai friend ID (EN server) is 389898010173124615

now, a list of my main interests!! please feel free to tag me in posts related to them <3 (the ones i am currently most fixated on are in blue)

games:

Witch's Heart

Project: Eden's Garden

Your Turn to Die

A3!

Project Sekai

books:

Lockwood & Co

A Good Girl's Guide to Murder

The 13 Treasures

Murder Most Unladylike

Malory Towers

animanga:

Kuroshitsuji

Death Note

Apothecary Diaries

manhwa:

Lout of the Count's Family

Villains Are Destined to Die

live action series:

Dead Boy Detectives

Derry Girls

BBC Merlin

BBC Ghosts

other miscellaneous media:

Vocaloid songs

Everything But Your Life

And Another Lovely Day

Ever After High

Paradox Live

Barbie movies

animals:

orcas

frogs

jellyfish

snakes

cats

miscellaneous:

fae (and other mythological creatures)

classic fairytales

Lego

playing cards and chess imagery

sculpture

embroidery (especially cross-stitch)

miniature dollhouses

gemstones

forests

on a bit more of a serious note, here are my boundaries:

anyone can send me asks or DMs!! i typically respond quicker to DMs than asks, so if it's particularly urgent, i would recommend DMing

i don't mind being tagged!! i might not always see it, though. i especially love Picrew chains <3

DNI - i don't want you here if you're bigoted in any way, an explicitly sexual blog, or a proshipper (i don't wish to delve into the discourse surrounding that, it is simply unlikely that i will get along with someone who enjoys that sort of content because it makes me uncomfortable)

i am also uncomfortable with those under thirteen interacting with my blog because many of my interests are not suitable for children

i'm religious so don't know how to respond to jokes about "killing God" and the like. therefore, i'd prefer if they weren't said to me

i will block if i feel the need to

other info you may want to keep in mind:

what i post on this blog isn't limited at all, i switch between my various interests quite frequently. sorry about that!!

i am in the UK timezone

i trigger tag with the format "tw [the subject]" this includes when i reblog suggestive jokes ("tw suggestive") so you can filter that if needed

i swear and use caps frequently

i'm very likely autistic so my tone might come across differently to how i intend, feel free to ask me to clarify

i have quite severe coulrophobia, it applies to real and realistically drawn clowns with heavy face paint (cartoony ones are fine), so if i'm following you, i'd really appreciate if you tag that with "tw clowns" or "tw coulrophobia"

or, with the above, you can also use the tag "ace don't look" instead. i'd also appreciate it if photos of slugs and snails were tagged with that as well, since i have a phobia of them as well

if i accidentally reblog AI art PLEASE do not hesitate to tell me. there have been a few times in which i wasn't aware until i checked comments

pictures of some of my favourite characters <3

[0nelittlebirdtoldme]

can you imagine if jaekyung was the one to set up the aphrodisiac laced drink just so dan would be more compliant during the jinx sexy times? like, it's such a big match with a lot riding on the line and he doesn't want to take any chances with dan not being into it/cutting it short. super far fetched, I know, but I thought it weird that dan noted the guy delivering the drink was Korean and all the while jaekyung was on his phone (aka telling his insider guy to make the delivery then) haha.

Tbh i don't think this is very likely. Will eat my shoe if it turns out to be real, but i really don't think that Jae would do that.

Not only could spiking Dan's shake possibly lead to a drug testing of the whole team later on and constitute a crime (and really, does he want to risk that?) but it also could backfire immensely if Dan reacts in a bad way to it. He doesn't need to drug him for the Jinx, hell, he doesn't even really want him drunk when they do it. Also he truly did seem surprised when Dan shows up at his door, and is so caught off guard, not expecting it, that the teeny, small, super light Dan can practically tackle him to the ground just like that.

[olderthannetfic]

Man I hate the tumblr purge in 2018. So many killing stalking blogs had to dip back then (I really like that manhwa!) On the plus side I dodged all the discourse that moved to twitter. But so did all the meta and discussions :/

I'm always interested in making a twitter but tbh I'm not 100% sure since elon took over. I'm also tempted to make a tik tok cuz i like watching edits but not sure if i can survive the potential brain damage.

Can someome tell me if either app is worth it?

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