#optimisticDuelist

[bladekindeyewear]

Light/Void and Ascent/Descent, Outward/Inward

I was helped in putting together something pretty huge this week, Aspect-ways. Sometimes lately, I've been chatting with Taz (aka optimisticDuelist, @utopianparadoxist) and we discuss or debate over character and Aspect interpretations, or they link me some interesting thoughts they've posted blogways or from a third party. This time we were discussing a post they made on Void's potential connection to Gravity and all its potential conflated meanings, such as Love pulling things together, which they based on analysis stemming from @lime-bloods's Void/Home association theoryposts -- I was skeptical of this Gravity interpretation, for reasons I'll go into later below the cut, but one of those reasons was I felt as if paired terms between Light and Void are important when solidifying the domains of each Aspect, and I couldn't think of one for Void's "Gravity" that had a Light equivalent. For example, recently I had the belated inspiration in terminology, for instance, that Light is "Location" where Void is "Dislocation", a perfect tie between Light's links to Maps and Landmarks contrasting it with Pumpkin-like "disconnectedness from spacetime" and ability to appear anywhere, which I quickly added to the Aspect Duality post in late February (I should add the edit date in on that).

And while we were tossing the idea around, we stumbled on another set of even MORE important paired Light/Void terms that made me do an acrobatic pirouette off the fucking handle. I got permission to paste the conversation:

BOOTS: otherwise there might be other aspects that better fit what's going on

((does Light "Push" where Void "Pulls"? could that be it? no, that sounds more like Breath and Blood…))

((actually that might be really important to Breath and Blood, shit! wind pushes forward/outward, chains pull in))

TAZ: I think its pretty fair to say that its a nebulous and abstract reading where a lot of the evidence is hard to parse, like I said at the end of the post I definitely still feel like I'm missing stuff about Void

And I also agree that other aspects have a lot of room to play in this space and overtake Void in readings, primarily Heart and Blood in this context

BOOTS: ((and the "inescapability" of black holes carried Blood associations with other inescapable things))

TAZ: Indeed

TAZ: But isn't that part of the nature of Void? To be a subtle force that falls into the backdrop and lets other things more visibly take over?

BOOTS: you could call that descending into the Ocean, into the abyss over a cliff, into irrelevance; it's Descent, but not necessarily Gravi---

AAAAAAA

AAAAAAAAAA

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

TAZ: Well this is exciting

BOOTS: LIGHT IS ASCENT, VOID IS DESCENT

TAZ: Yeah, I can see that

BOOTS: there are so many fucking associations across the comic and I'm remembering so many of them oh my god

And that Gravity is wrapped up in this association as everything is naturally PULLED DOWN. The rest of the conversation is under the Read More cut where we started listing out more than a dozen freakin' examples to each other that show how UTTERLY PERVASIVE a theme this has been throughout the entire goddamn comic, from the start right up to and including the very latest update of Beyond Canon. (Contains HS^2/Beyond Canon spoilers if you're coming here from elsewhere, stop reading here if you're not caught up to the 2025-03-26 update!)

EDIT: (Just a brief note I'm adding to this above the cut, but a Discord friend just gave me ANOTHER association to add to Light and Void: Outward vs Inward, Light's outward projection the pair to Void's inward gravity!!! Shining Stars versus Black Holes! Void's Inwardness finally brings together its metaphysical ties with Heart and how the latter often sits isolated in the Ocean of Void like Dirk's house, the natural inward-looking nature of Heart-- compared to the outward-facing nature of Mind and its façades, tying Light and Mind together like Vriska and Terezi!)

TAZ: It might almost apply as a broad division to the upper and lower halves of the wheel in general, actually?

BOOTS: even in this LAST update they go UP to enter Canon a black hole is always Down

TAZ: But I like it as Light and Void specifically right now, lets examine that

Yeah yeah BOOTS: Looking at Light almost always entails looking Up, looking down is usually staring into the Void, with the exception of Derse players staring out into the Ring

mainly abysses and oceans with looking down TAZ: Dirk's consumption by Ultself is described as him being subsumed into the Ocean/descending into its watery depths, while Rose outright says about hers "I am ascending, and it is terrible"

BOOTS: Rose begins her grimdark path by destroying her first (UPWARD) Gate and rocketing off elsewhere and of course she's the prime example shown off by the comic of the Descend-before-you-Ascend of role inversion

TAZ: And Heart is on the lower half of the wheel with Blood and across from Void. So maybe there's something there

mmmhmm, mmhmm

BOOTS: it's been said even in like, Andrew's commentary outside the comic, that "Skaia is always Up"

it's never shown setting

TAZ: And of course they shoot the meteor Up towards the Green Sun

BOOTS: and the trolls see the creation-splosion of the green sun Up to direct them in Cascade--

yeah, exactly [what you said]

TAZ: Terezi's looking slightly Upwards as she remem8er's Vriska in [S] Remem8er

(Vriska) and (Terezi) staring Up into the Light of paradox space breaking

it really is all over the place, huh

for that matter, (Vriska) and Meenah looking Up into the fireworks as (Vriska) comes to the true realizations she does about how miserable it is to live the way Vriska and Lord English live

BOOTS: going against your hero role, Descending, is so often denying your true self agency and straying away from philosophical Truth-- after which comes the Ascent where you find and accept yourself

oh and by going into what's been constantly called HELL inside the Plot Point and then emerging out stronger, Vriska "descended" ala Dante's Inferno and then Ascended out of it

TAZ: indeed! indeed

Oh! Dirk and Hal's conversation on the rooftop!

Dirk sits on the side of his home and is literally staring down at both a long plummet/implied s*****e and literally into his Shades/his own Self

BOOTS: hell, if you wanted to make a pun of any love association, instead of gravity you could call it falling in love!

There's just SO MUCH MORE to this, so many examples of Light and importance and enlightenment and Skaia's philosophical truth being UP or involving ascent, where anything that drops or falls DOWN into the water or off cliffs becomes dislocated and its relevance unknown until it might eventually perhaps resurface unpredictably elsewhere. Tavros being driven down off a cliff by the Thief of Light to break his legs and stunt the playful drive he needed to become a fully realized Page of Breath, Aranea's snapped-neck body being dropped into the flames to fade into such irrelevance that she never surfaced post-Retcon, Vriska stealing all the luck/Light from the enemy creature in the first Meteor walkaround and it falling into a collapsing dark pit, so many people always going UP to reach concrete destinations, Roxy and others crashing DOWN through fenestrated windows and falling to reach the Furthest Ring, and of course there's always the Jung psychology stuff that was woven into Sburb (as I've reiterated in the past) and an essential metaphor for Descending into your shadow and Ascending from it to merge your shadow self with your conscious self for true self-acceptance and balance, like Vriska just did in the Plot Point, like the normal Quest Bed method of attaining God-Tier merging the Real and Dream selves and everyone looking Upward to see John RISE UP and achieve ascension: (From an older edit of the Wikipedia page for the Jungian Shadow--)

Nevertheless, Jung remained of the opinion that while “no one should deny the danger of the descent […] every descent is followed by an ascent”, and assimilation of—rather than possession by—the shadow becomes a possibility.

“We begin to travel [up] through the healing spirals…straight up.”

As I've said before, the game IS the psychotheraputic journey from start to finish, complete with the same monumental challenges, pitfalls, rejection and acceptance (of help and of oneself!) that all sorts of different people must confront in order to simultaneously fully appreciate and become themselves, and also become the people they truly want to be. Skaia's Light and the path it guides players on thus represents a journey to one's philosophical enlightenment about oneself, their ASCENT, and the challenges and misleading dejection that causes them to reject this journey and fight against their natures is DESCENT, so often involving the Horrorterrors who embody the essence of Void in nature and motive.

Gosh when you think of all the times "UP" or "DOWN" has been the focus of major or even offhand scenes or panels, there's just SO MUCH that fits them into Light and Void respectively. I couldn't possibly begin to list all the examples, you're probably noticing more in your mind as you read this post.

--

I'm going to integrate this Ascent/Descent meaning into the Aspect Duality post's sections on Light and Void, and link this post there, but before we finish I wanna delve into the potential Gravitation meaning of Void that optimisticDuelist brought up and reasons I might agree or be skeptical of the ties drawn in their post... especially stemming from this Rose quote they included:

That seems to tie Void pretty inarguably to Gravitation, or perhaps the vacuum pull of nothingness, but because I didn't have a clear counter-meaning in Light I wanted to look up the full context of this quote when I made this post... (readmspa.org is a very useful tool while Homestuck.com is down and mimics the old manual search function)--

ROSE: Or what about, the tale of Isaac Newdon under the tree?? He was BONKED on the head by an apple. ROSE: Not reallyan apple though… an atomic idea. An emlemental unit of inspripation itself, id clocked him right on then noggin. ROSE: And this indivisible notion colliding with hish awareness, much like.. . a high speed partical fired to create a nuculear chain reacation, jarred from the void a more profund unnerstand, HIC, ing of the intrinsic nature of nothiness. Thatis,. Gravivitation. ROSE: Of course thess stories are acutually bullshit. They didn't happen in realaity. But thef act that they'rare bullshit makes them more inshresting. ROSE: Men have crefted many stories that are bullshit out of symbols risen from the abyss of coinsciousness withou necesharily knowing whath e fuck they were doing or saying, as they flounered around for some truth. ROSE: Bust in spite of themseleves they would for howefer briefly cross through a ray of light regarless. Becuss of the sbymbols. Dave.. The symbols hol dall the power.

Taz also mentioned that a commenter in their server pointed out that this Gravitation quote and the reference to a high-speed particle collider could also be an intentional reference by Andrew to the Graviton, the theoretical elementary particle responsible for mass and its gravitational force that has so far not been detected/discovered yet, remaining obscured (Void) compared to the particles tied to the other elemental forces.

Black Holes ALWAYS had strong ties to Void, the ultimate sinks for the destruction of information, ultimate darkness, (ultimate Down/descent), the compression of all meaning and separation into a melange forever irrelevant to the rest of Reality beyond one's Event Horizon (thanks @sagaciouscejai for the reminder). And in the Epilogues forward, "Non-Canon" belongs to the great Black Hole and everything that falls nigh-inescapably into it-- as opposed to Canon's comparative association with Light and story importance. But, hm... if Void is "down" and "descent" and the "abyss of [Jung's collective] consciousness", to what extent is it important as "Gravity" specifically, as well? Or is that just tied to the fundamental concept of "down" in the comic's metaphysical framework? Taz mentioned Dirk linked to gravitation to tidal forces too, hence the Ocean which is Void-linked. Does Gravity have a balancing opposite in Light that I can put into keywords besides "Up/Down" or "Ascent/Descent"? And if it DOESN'T have a balancing concept in Light... could Gravitation be part of Void's tie to Space that explains them as neighbors, a shared domain that Space and Void might possess?

In the end I think I'm positive toward Rose's speech and the fact of Black Holes (as well as "DOWN/DESCENT") establishing a definite tie between Gravity and Void, but where I'd disagree with Taz is how over the rest of their original post they pointed to "succumbing" to toxic influences and generational trauma as a sort of Gravity, which I'd disagree with and say has more to do with Void's existing and known "submission and divestment of agency" associations, as well as Centrality coming from it (which I'd have to reconcile with Light's "Location" meaning) not quite adding up for me, and Love as stemming from Gravity which I really don't think has enough in-comic evidence tying the two together. If we eventually deduce that Love has some Void associations-- and the Void characters we've met have certainly been more than a little Love-obsessed at times-- I expect that any association would have to stem from Void's other established meanings such as the submission of agency required by a relationship as opposed to making all the decisions yourself (Light's agency) and hogging the spotlight, like the contrast between Vriska and (Vriska) toward the end of Homestuck proper. There's more to lime-bloods's post that I haven't given enough thinking time to, like Voids always being the central seeding-place for new creation like a Womb, which would ALSO explain its proximity to Space on the official wheel... but, yeah. Those are all my in-progress thoughts on that for the moment, anyway. ((EDIT: "Outward vs Inward" like I mentioned above the cut finally completes the Gravity association!))

I'm still blown away by how clearly Light and Void can mean "UP and "DOWN", can mean "ASCENT" and "DESCENT", that's... just such a blindingly stunning revelation for us to have come to so late, IMO. I bet there's half a dozen theorists out there who put it together AGES sooner and I just never saw their posts. Wow. :D

[davekat-sucks]

were some parts of homestuck actually ghostwritten??? not the main story but i remember seeing someone say that around half of the book commentaries were ghostwritten by optimisticduelist is this true?

I had heard that later parts in Act 6 up to Post Retcon could have been ghostwritten. But this is the first time I heard about optimisticDuelist/utopianparadoxist/RoseOfNobility being the one to write the commentaries for the physical books.

[mskoreodyssey]

The Hero Titles - III - Archetypes

[@utopianparadoxist​’s video]

As a quartet closest to the center with the most interrelated verb. It's easiest to describe prophets and magicians as two sides of a coin. Both are defined by their unique connection to magic. The art of using individual will to change reality in a way that would normally be impossible. They're also connected to the scientific process. As it describes the collection of true knowledge through the changing of variables.

As emissaries of their Aeon's divine will, prophets use their aspect as a source of knowledge. They're known for becoming experts and analysts. Often approached as consultants and sources of guidance. The speech of a Prophet is powerful, and the way they spell words will be often linked to their dialogue. Which is itself influenced by their aspect or the legacy of their prophecy. Their insight of the future and the rules governing reality allows them to issue prophecies, making these individuals effective guides. But they can also perform miracles, impacting reality directly through the sheer intensity of their thoughts. But both run the risk of becoming intemperate in their knowledge and arcane. Even alienating to the friends that should listen to them.

As sorcerers who wield their aspects great power, magicians use their aspect as a tool of change. Mighty beyond their kin, magicians transform reality and are altered by their aspect in kind. They're often looked to as leaders and sources of direction. Knowing best how to flow with reality and respond to change as it comes. Their speech is often marked by the way they spell words, as the locutions to a wizard's spell is always linked to the magic being cast. Successful wizards learn to take control of their immense power and use it for themselves. Witches will rest that power from their familiar. A living source of their aspect that both AIDS and controls them. Heirs must take responsibility for their magic inheritance or risk letting it consume them, and both risk turning to dark magic that worsens the world. Evil sorcery is practiced whenever we diminish ourselves or other people. Changing individuals into unhappier, more unfulfilled versions of themselves.

Whether they take the form of Robin Hood, pirates or cyberpunks. Outlaws are rebels who stand outside society's rules and prefer to live by the law of the land and their own personal values. Since their only community is the one which they make themselves. More solitary thieves tend to pick their friends carefully, only trusting those they consider equals. This tends to make them high-impact solo players, but they can sometimes go AWOL and take action with no regard for their group's feelings. If they think they know what's best. More group-oriented rogues tend to be friendlier to everyone, but are also intensely devoted to those who win their hearts. Sometimes to an unhealthy degree. Outlaws are skilled at stealing their aspect from reality and using it as a versatile tool. Thieves will use this ability to amass power and options for themselves. While rogues will spread their wishes like gifts to empower those around them.

Whether we're talking about warriors or butlers, servants are those who serve and protect. They stand defending the front lines of society or helping whether it requires structure. Acting as Guardians and assistance as duty calls. Feeling beholden to the expectations of society, servants often adopt some version of a Warrior's Code of Honor. Which factors into the persona they strive to project. Group-focused Knights try to make themselves seem reliable and dependable. Getting others to trust them to know what to do and how to help. Solitary Pages tend to use their personas to try to escape accountability. Convincing others to let them indulge whatever fantasies interest them. Because of their early reliance on others and self-serving nature, pages have the longest path of any class to reaching their true power. However, once they reach it, their vast reserves of untapped potential make them second to none.

Powerful warriors, both Knights and Pages shine at using their aspect as a weapon with. Which to serve their enemies as a weapon with which to provide their enemies devastating defeats. Whether it's in combat or conversation. Knights are devoted to serving their friends. Between either direct service or by making gifts out of or through their aspect. With which to empower them further. A Page's innocent and kind-hearted nature tends to inspire in others the desire to be helpful to them in turn. Like thieves, they'll collect both their aspect, the tools and allies that grants them to further empower themselves. However, both should be careful that they don't confuse their personas with their own inner selves. Or use them to deny their feelings and those of others.

Royals are those concerned with aristocracy and nobility. They're intensely concerned with the great figures who shape society. As such, share a focus on birth-rights and legacy. Their passion for society makes them intensely devoted to the causes they choose and the people they love. Never one to shy away from a challenge, the Royal will take on any fight so long as the cause is righteous in their eyes. These individuals are judges and revolutionaries. Tearing down what's old and stagnant to allow for the flourishing of the new. They're formidable attackers, but also effective de-buffers. As they remove their aspect from reality or wear down the enemy through its use. However, their reverence for high-class court society can make them judgmental and arrogant. Their greatest challenge is resisting the ego that would convince them they're above others.

Fairies are a kind of elemental, a being who is made of magic. Their identities are crafted by the weight of their own aspect above all else. Being so connected to their own inner-nature, insulates them from the society around them. Prone to meddling and mischief, fairies make a mark all their own, and the world can only stand by and watch. This tends to give them an ethereal quality that makes them stand out. They're healers and improvers, bringing into existence what wasn't there before. Though they can fight perfectly well on their own terms, they can also grant powerful buffs. As they add their aspect to reality or build up others through its use.

However, being so defined by their own inner worlds makes the fairies' greatest challenge handling their own extreme tempers. Depending on whether they're in a good or bad mood, they can evoke either of the two fairy courts.

Happy fairies evoke the court of the seelie, seeming lucky or blessed. The sorrows of the world never touch them for long. A truly hurt fairy can evoke the unseelie, seeming inherently unhappy and prone to misfortune. They can be unpredictably violent and intensely vindictive.

[radiantsummer]

It's both! Which is sort of splitting hairs at a certain point. Aspects are narrative themes, and classes are how characters play with that theme. So together, you get a fuller "archetype."

But classes have a deeper connection regarding how their characters are set up and introduced. With some exceptions, characters that share classes tend to have a lot of parallels when it comes to their upbringing, how they go about interacting with others, or how they hide their insecurities.

ive always thought of classes as an archetype, but i guess its more how the character uses their aspect to influence the story. which does have a lot of overlap because the "how" generally falls into patterns of general character behavior.

wait i realized something incredibly stupid because i almost typed behavior like behaviour. the extra u is why calliope types like an english person. fml

[laurasauras]

My book came out today!!

You can find links for where to buy my silly little king/jester romantasy book (with a hidden heart of trauma) on my website https://laurajfitzwilson.com/the-fool/.

I'm so grateful to everyone who has helped me get here, most recently @mrvelkan who did the astonishingly great art at the end of the video, which is also now my phone's lock screen 😍😍😍

Transcript below the cut.

This is a story about duty, grief, and the last person you'd expect to fall in love with. Hi I’m Laura and I’ve written a book that comes out today!

The Fool is a low-spice fantasy romance that’s sometimes silly, sometimes dramatic and always earnest. When Leo is unwillingly made king of the smallest country on fantasy!Australia after the murders of his parents and brother, he has to figure out how to be a leader as he goes. It’s just as much about grief and trauma, family dynamics, and social performance as it is about romantic love.

“An emotionally earnest queer romantasy with a big heart” - KmartBooks

“A magical ride!” - cozreads

“Really really funny” - OptimisticDuelist

“This is the best book written in any genre, in all of space and time” - Laura’s mum

Are you ready to get down with the clown?

[ultrakill-confessions]

Homestuck Ultrakill classpects go!!!

Gabriel - Maid of Rage, Prospit dreamer

Minos - Sylph of Blood, Derse dreamer

Sisyphus - LORD of Time, Prospit dreamer

(These are my short-ish explanations loosely based on optimisticDuelist and @/ homestuckexamination's classpects analysis + the official homestuck personality test btw, I haven't studied classpect stuff in years tho so I might be very off lmao I'd love to hear opinions)

Gabriel: Maids tend to have a character arc where they realize they aren't meant to serve someone else, but themselves (Like how Gabriel freed himself from the Council), Rage because one of it's main traits is hating a system built on lies and willing to tear it all down preferring anarchy over such lies (Literally Gabriel), Prospit dreamer is uhh mostly just a hunch, it jus feels right, for reference Prospit dreamers tend to live more in the moment and just be themselves and also tend to tidy up their bedroom, while Derse dreamers tend to live in the past, putting up a mask to hide their true self, and having a messy bedroom. So yeah idk Gabriel has Prospit vibes

Minos: Sylphs are selfless creators/makers. Blood is the aspect for someone who is an inspirational leader, whose strength comes from close friends and allies. Derse dreamer... is also a hunch lmao, he'd just look better in the Derse's purple clothes don't you think? He also seems like the type that constantly thinks about the past.

Sisyphus: Lords are Commanders, and it's also one of the most powerful classes (along with it's selfless counterpart, the Muse), the Time aspect is for people who constantly fight agaisnt what fate has in store for them. Prospit dreamer because he lives in the moment being himself, no need to think too much about past failures. Also he'd look terrible in purple clothes lmao.

This probably sounds like a bunch of nonsense to non-homestucks but I hope those who read everything enjoyed it lol, I'd also love to hear other classpects headcanons, I'll try to make more if I can think of it, I tried thinking of one for V1 but I don't think his personality and story arc is all that clear to make one for him.

-

[scalding-homestuck-confessions]

Having optimisticDuelist on the team was a really fucking bad idea.

[utopianparadoxist]

And Ascended to Ultimate Jake English holds the reins on all of reality. A mysterious demon holds the reins of Jake English. And as Ultimate Dirk and Rose come to grips with the fates they've been doomed to walk, a star draws closer... In the shape of a betrayed, angry dog girl with too broken a heart. What lies inside the W(I)LD Heart of the Meat timeline's Jade Harley?

Finally posted Chapter 1 of the next part of Pumpkin Track. Hope whoever reads it enjoys!

Thanks to @madam-melon-meow and @classpectpokerap for editing help, along with folks in the @homestuck-fanauthor-coalition in general! A bunch of other people have also made edit/comments on the first pass too over the years--I don't remember everyone, but off the top of my head, @betweengenesisfrogs and @aslanzounder for sure.

If you want to be included and feel I forgot, please reach out! I'll be updating my list on Ao3 and on here.

[sweetblogandhellaposts]

kinda seriously bugs me how most classpect discussion on this website still revolves around the old optimisticDuelist and bladekindeyewear theories even though those have been deconfirmed since hs2 confirmed maid is a passive class

[ghastly-enby-lover]

Hiveswap Headcanons

Author's Note: I know some of these are probably already accepted by the fandom but, I love thinking about them. It will range from headcanons about the trolls, to claspects or quadrants.

I like to think aspects could be ruled by the main aspect of the true sign. For example Tagora is a space aspect and the true sign teal blood aspect is mind so then his Space aspect would be ruled by Mind Aspect. (Tbh I mostly got that idea from optimisticduelist but, I do mine a little different. I don't think the true signs class effects the interpretation of their sign.)

Trolls whose sign has any animalitic features have more animalistic features. It could be their ears, shape of the eyes, teeth, nails or horns.

Trolls of a lower blood caste are warmer while troll of a higher blood caste is colder.

I like seeing the Black Quadrant more as a motivator compared to just hate sex. Like a person you hate so much that you strive to become better to spite them or to rub it in their face.

Trolls can 100% purr and I will fight people who say otherwise.

I headcanon Skylla as a Mage of Time, Tagora is Knight of Space and Zebruh as a Bard of Doom. I want to do a whole paper on why I think these classes and my on take how classpects work

Tbh that's all I can think of for now but, I will for sure make another Headcanon list when I get my creative juices flowing again. Thanks for listening to my silly little rambles

[bladekindeyewear]

Hello, what do you think of optimisticDuelist's Role-playing theory? Basically, he suggested that instead of inverting, Rose was role-playing a misinterpretation of her mother's classpect. He also suggests Terezi was role-playing Redglare's Knight class while investigating Murderstuck, and that Vriska and Aranea were role-playing each other's classes. I recommend watching "HSE: Guardians and Ancestors" for more about his theory. :D

Since I'm trying to get back in the swing of things (might still take me a few weeks), I might as well remind y'all of my earlier position:

I haven't read or watched optimisticDuelist's theories yet, and I probably ought to before I make any serious judgments on the matter. Plus, I'm not caught up with HS^2's recent new updates, and I was under the impression that oD had some input into HS^2 as a whole-- I'm not sure if Andrew gave the writers and collaborators on that project the latitude to make some changes from the system that was intended by Andrew in the original comic's run, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had, so for all we know some of those theories may retroactively fit the original comic even if they weren't initially intended! Or introduced as just a NEW thing that can happen! That's one sort of thing that I was originally so devoted to the comic's "original intent" that I wouldn't have accepted easily, but I'm coming to accept as a possibility a bit easier now, with how much Andrew has pushed Death of the Author and how much the ending of the comic showed that many of the things I judged were "important" in-comic weren't important to him at all.

However, if we're looking as far back as Act 5 Act 2, I believe there's a serious fundamental difference in scope and scale between trolls like Vriska and Terezi poorly cosplaying the trappings and aesthetics of ancestors whose classpects we didn't know at the time -- ancestors who were in fact constantly teased with words like Thief (Mindfang), Seer (Redglare), and Witch (Condesce) to match their younger descendants' classes even though Andrew likely intended for them to have had different classes all along -- and the severe, extreme, and powerful event that seems to be full-on hero role inversion.

Reading some Homestuck liveblogs lately, I was reminded of the strong and intentional connections that all of Homestuck has with Carl Jung's psychological theories and the concept of the "Shadow" self. And I'm not just talking about a superficial resemblance between the Shadow and role inversion, or the "assimilation of the shadow" and the uniting of one's Real Self and Dream Self to ascend to God Tier. No-- I mean that Jung's theories, even if somewhat discredited, are referenced by the complex stew of mythologies that make up Sburb and define how the game is played, just like all the pop and serious references to works like Lord Of The Rings that made it into the game's objectives. If you skim that wikipedia page you'll very quickly see what I mean:

Nevertheless, Jung remained of the opinion that while "no one should deny the danger of the descent [...] every descent is followed by an ascent",[54] and assimilation of—rather than possession by—the shadow becomes a possibility.

"We begin to travel [up] through the healing spirals...straight up."[53]: 160–1

There's a good reason that Rose was given an interest in psychotherapy leading into the comic. It's tightly tied to the whole story's themes! Trying to show players the potential they have as individuals, the power inherent in their very personalities, and setting them a stage to confront themselves and grow into someone who would shape the future and accept their own self-worth, is the entire point of the game and the answer to the Ultimate Riddle. Every major character had to go through the arduous process of confronting their flaws and talents and trying to accept who they were. The game IS the psychotheraputic journey from start to finish, complete with the same monumental challenges, pitfalls, rejection and acceptance (of help and of oneself!) that all sorts of different people must confront in order to simultaneously fully appreciate and become themselves, and also become the people they truly want to be. Because despite what self-loathing and toxic gender norms and all sorts of naysayers would have us believe, those two things are closer to the same thing than most can easily imagine. The journey to discover, accept, unite with and leverage the power of being you.

And when you tie Jungian Psychology to MBTI personality types, you can practically flip the letters into an opposed Shadow too, in a less literal but startlingly similar way to the class-and-aspect-flip Inversion Theory that we proposed. (DAMMIT i still need to rewrite the Aradia post to be less pretentious, that's been on my to-do list for years but I've never been up to it...)

Again, I still need to read/watch optimisticDuelist's theories (I've had a hard time emotionally looking deep into anything Homestuck for a good while now, and even though you're referencing some pretty old theories i was NEVER very good at keeping up with others' theories besides what was specifically brought to my attention, it was a serious problem), but from what I recall in-comic every time I saw someone mimic or cosplay an ancestor they were mostly... just cosplaying! Nothing is stopping a Seer from picking up a sword and trying to do some knight stuff. TRYING. The only issue is that they won't be very good at it, because they're not actually learning about themselves and leveraging the strengths of their own personality and power set. I have no idea how to use a gun or weapons; if I were to pick one up and try to suddenly join a battle, I would have no idea what I'm doing and would be more likely to get myself or others hurt rather than do anyone any actual good. And even when someone like Terezi picked up a (cane-)sword in the comic, she still mostly used it as a Seer would, as the threat to punctuate or act on explicitly foreseen possibilities. When she ran Vriska through, she was acting on a VISION borne of the realities that hinged on others' decisions and fronts, that revealed themselves through her understanding the Mind aspect. It was no martial superpower, no mental trick-- all Terezi had was the superpower of understanding how badly Vriska's move to fight Jack would play out, with the necessary certainty she needed in order to confidently stab Vriska.

(Brief edit: as an aside, many classes of Heart player might be more positioned to take on and leverage the skills and uniqueness of others. Roleplaying others was one of NEPETA'S strengths.)

Rose's inversion was very, very, VERY different.

The word "witch" was EVERYWHERE around Rose, almost moreso than the Void symbolism. "Witch" was plastered all over Act 5 Act 2 in both the text and visual representations. Other players like Eridan CALLED her a witch REPEATEDLY. We saw a Witch of Time using dual needles and magic. Andrew couldn't have shouted the word any louder. It came with IMMENSE power, the sort of power level we've deduced (and Doc and Rose hinted) comes from someone's Hero Title because it's more powerful than any other mundane, magical, or psychic power source, fitting to the Ultimate Riddle-- when someone pulls out their Hero Powers against any non-hero power source besides sometimes the Green Sun, the one using Hero Powers always wins. It isn't even a contest.

When Rose went grimdark, she looked like a Witch. She didn't look like her mother. And she didn't act like her mother either! Especially when we got Roxy Lalonde in Act 6, it was clear that Rose's Grimdark actions and modus-operandi were absolutely nothing like those of her ecto-sister, even with all the commonalities they shared as people. Whatever inspiration Rose received from her mother's behavior and aesthetics, all it seems she took from it in her Grimdark descent was the Void, and little else.

If you were to try and convince me that what Rose did in Act 5 Act 2 was meant by the author to convey to us the actions of someone behaving as a Rogue of Void and not a Witch of Void, you wouldn't just need to show me evidence of Roguish activity. You'd need to show me ENOUGH evidence that Andrew meant to hide Rogue behavior beneath an intentional Witch whitewash (like that prior tease with the Troll Ancestors being coyly made to sound like they matched their descendants that I described earlier), and that all the Witch symbology and actions were actually a bullshit red herring!!! Few readers thought there was any serious impact of her Grimdark phase to her Class until we stumbled upon Inversion Theory as an extension of Aspect Duality, and a red herring is pretty pointless if it doesn't convince anyone.

Saying that NONE of those witch hints mattered? THAT'S A REALLY TALL ORDER. "Witch of Void" is just way, way too strongly evidenced in my eyes, and almost half of our derivative understanding of classes and aspects is based on Seer <--> Witch duality! It'll be weeks before I have my mental health together enough to watch optimisticDuelist's theories, but like, Seer <--> Witch is the most confident I still am in any theory besides the Ultimate Riddle and Aspect Duality. It'd take quite a lot to make me believe otherwise, so expecting optimisticDuelist's videos to change my mind on this matter would be... er. A little optimistic.

And because of how dependent so many of my theories were on what we learned about aspect duality FROM role inversion, if Seer <--> Witch didn't happen, then you might as well throw out almost everything I've ever said on classpects with the bathwater and start over. Rightly call me biased, but I do really hope I don't have to do that!

(edit 1pm cdt: added a bit more to the second-to-last paragraph before the cut to hammer home that "Shadow (Psychology)" wikipedia article, seriously so many of the characters' journeys in the comic follow it like a playbook. edit 1:15pm cdt: fixed wandering read-more)

[davekat-sucks]

was floral the one that started the whole "jake english is secretly a manipulative mastermind" shit? cuz i never understood it. it feels so fucking random like. what? how?

ive seen it every now and then where people in the fandom claim jake was actually the abuser and i straight up am so confused by it.

I know that optimisticDuelist also believed that, but is Floral being the one who started it? What kind of leap in logic do they have to come up with Jake being an abuser? Then again, this is the same team what let "TAVROS IS A CHASER" Kate Mitchell in and people suddenly believed in that.

[mskoreodyssey]

The Hero Titles - II - Classes

[@utopianparadoxist’s video]

Besides Gnosticism, the father of analytical psychology established several concepts you might recognize from pop culture. Like the persona and the shadow. Jung also recontextualized the Gnostic world of ideas as the collective unconscious, an element of the subconscious mind that connects all people.

From this collective unconscious, Jung believed patterns of potential he called archetypes would emerge in the minds of cultures and individuals. Universally and eternally, infinitely. These archetypes would then be contextualized by culture, adding particular symbols that render the pattern into more specific examples of its source.

This includes patterns of behavior people might engage in, with mythic figures acting as the ultimate ancestral role models. In this sense, precursors are a little like platonic ideas for moderate people. Indeed, Jung considered Plato an influence.

In 1991, Dr. Carol S. Pearson adapted Jung's archetypes into a system similar to the MBTI, with twelve such forerunners describing different types of mythic heroes.

It seems likely Andrew was influenced by these as he developed the twelve classes. But it doesn't exactly seem like Hussie simply copy-pasted the archetypes from Pierce's model into his system.

Instead, he remixed them, condensing the 14 classes into seven pairs. Each linked to a verb that describes how they interact with their aspect. And an archetype that lets us know what classes are paired while fleshing out their abilities.

The pairings are divided into active and passive versions of the archetype, reflecting the Taoist concept of Yin-Yang. So while paired classes will use the same verb, they have some key differences. Active or Yang players tend towards exploiting or using their aspect to benefit themselves. While passive or yin-players be inclined to allow or invite their aspect to act through them to benefit others. Yang and Yin also carry over to most general personality traits. Active contestants have a tendency to be moreover proactive and self-driven, while passive players tend to be more reactive and group directed. However, tending is the operative word.

Central to Yin-Yang is the idea that all things change between each other, depending on the context. As complex and nuanced people, a player might flip any element of the dichotomy in the right situation. So we can sometimes see active contestants acting to benefit others, or passive players making direct use of their aspect. Class alignment does suggest which state of being the hero is happiest and most comfortable with, as well as what type of behavior might come naturally to them.

This tendency to shift between active and passive states is the final thing that sets classes apart. The roles exist on an active-passive spectrum, with the Master status Lord and Muse as the most active and greater passive, respectively.

The rest of the leagues have matching verbs, creating quartets of tiers with their own existential contrast.

The more intense the verb's effect on reality is, the moreover active or passive the classes in the quartet will be.

So Maid and Prince are a variety of the greater active, while Sylph and Bard are various of the most passive.  We can see this reflected in the way the heroes of these classes shape Homestuck's narrative. Players of all four classes tend to stick to either active or passive states for lengthily spans of time. They tend to be somewhat inflexible, either abstaining from undertaking entirely or taking highly dramatic action all at once with insignificant middle ground. The contestants also find it incredibly stressful to adopt their opposing alignment. As a result, these players tend to either keep out of the spotlight entirely as they quietly allow the story to continue. Or dominate the plot completely with the sheer impact of their actions.

This stark divide is lessened for the serve and steal classes, whose verbs conflict but can somewhat coexist.

And it's almost nonexistent for the change in no tiers whose verbs are practically interdependent. What these classes lose in direct impact, they gain inflexibility instead. That describes the base of the hero title system. But believe it or not, there's more.

(...)

Jung believed archetypes manifested in the instinctual behavior of individuals. But they could also be actualized when these roles enter consciousness as images. Homestuck uses both approaches simultaneously, presenting the latter through an additional game mechanic we'll call live-action roleplay.

(...)

While each character has an innate class that describes the behavior over which they're most effective. The characters are also exposed to archetypes through the ancestral figures they look up to. Or simply by their individual interests.

If the interest in the archetype is intense enough, they will sometimes imitate the behavior and verb of the corresponding class through roleplay.

Sometimes a controlling force will even make a character adopt a particular role, limiting their self-expression and personal desires.

On top of that, while each contestant has an innate aspect, there's another outcome opposite to it. We're told that a player resistant enough to their true calling or corrupted by outside forces could manifest their abilities as a different aspect entirely too. This creates an additional layer stacked on top of the structure the hero titles already give us.

(...)

This remarkable degree of complexity. Drawing upon established fields of existential and humanist philosophy is what conveys fans to the hero title system. Which makes it an appealing way to understand Homestuck's characters as well as personage from other stories and in many cases, even ourselves.

[homestuck-fanauthor-coalition]

THE APOCRYPHON OF JAKE ENGLISH

THE APOCRYPHON OF JAKE ENGLISH (53399 words) by optimisticDuelist, KeeperofManyNames Chapters: 8/8 Fandom: Homestuck Rating: Mature Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death Relationships: Jake English/Dirk Strider Characters: Jake English, Dirk Strider, Rose Lalonde, Alternate Calliope (Homestuck), Original Characters Additional Tags: Suicide, Graphic Depiction of Suicide, Negging, Parental Negligence, Abuse, Manipulation, Xenophobia, Sexual Themes, Toxic Masculinity, Religious Themes, Pantheons, Discussion of Infidelity, Discussion of Genocide, Nonconsensual Immortality, Suicidal Ideation, Impalement, Shooting, Stabbing, Phallic Symbolism, Necrophilia, Mightve forgot other stuff, If youre worried pls have a friend vet it for you, Ill add tags if people deem them necessary, Epilogues Sequel, Canon-Compliant, canon non-compliant, Canon Divergence Series: Part 1 of Pumpkin Path Summary: If you didn't like the epilogues there's probably nothing here for you, but this was basically my emotional processing for them and I think what came out of it was a lot of fun, if fucked up. Anyway. dirkjake: not only still good, but better now that its worse actually. here's my thesis on why as well as my attempt to deconstruct the narrative pandora's box that is jake goddamn english.   Every hat in attendance MUST be doffed deferentially to sam keeper, who i made co-author because i swear to god this shit was never getting posted ever if she didn't step in to save my sorry ass with her bonkers efficient text formatting skills. I cannot imagine trying to color format all of this stuff by hand and even with the text formatting its probably only sometimes legible LOL. Let me know how that goes for y'all.

~~~~~~~~~

@utopianparadoxist brings us this brilliant work set in the realm of the epilogues. Jake English is giving us the pumpkin path! check out the blog to find out more.

[robbiedrawsstuff]

this post is mainly just for my sake of remembering this fact!!

but i have been doing ALOT of research on sburb concepts, because while reading homestuck it is very easily too smooth over them and just except what the hell rose and john are up to next. but writing my own webcomic has made me actually think about it in depth!!!

if i misspell anything in this post i apologize spelling is very much NOT my strong suit :<

so mini rant about the alchemiezer, so all the beta kids successfully enter in the supposed correct way with their cruxite artifacts



they are all references to things, such as rose; eve telling john; adam, to eat the apple of the tree, the meaning of jades and other artifacts is something i have yet to fully understand honestly, i'm even at a loss for what my characters cruxite item should be atm!!! but alas, like any homestuck fan who wants to learn about homestuck i was watching optimisticduelist, and he mentioned all the beta kids artifacts are food themed in some way, which confused me IMMENSELY, than i really thought about it, their artifacts involve food because their session, bears fruit!

which is supported by jane and jakes artifacts not having food, jane's tree not bearing her any fruit, compared to john's apple or jades piñata because of her void session, jake applies too, his definitively being the most obstruct, having a male cherub hung from his tree.

but yeah that's really it!! one of my queries on all this is why is their so many goddamn trees?? i think rose's and daves are very creative! i think it's lost potential honestly, but yeah sburb is cool and i like talking about it, bye! :3

[cryptid-catnip]

Can you elaborate on the postcanon writers being transmisogynists?

I’d heard Kate Michell had some interesting views on Tavros, but as a new Homestuck fan there’s not really any good way to catch up on the old drama

optimisticDuelist rather notoriously called a trans woman a pedophile for having "girlpenis" in her twitter handle