#parallel zodiark

[ailheim-art]

Audric and Parallel Zodiark for Dragalia's 6th anniversary

[tritoch]

why doesn't venat tell the convocation?

one thing you'll see come up from time to time: why does venat, the largest ancient, not simply eat the other sorry wrong notes. Why does Venat, who has access to time-loop knowledge, not simply tell the Convocation what she knows and try to fight the Final Days in her time?

it's an understandable question: why wouldn't you want to change the future, if you know what comes to pass? Answering this question does a lot to flesh out our understanding of the Ancients, as well as Venat herself, in fun ways. It also highlights the heightened tonal register FFXIV operates in where the Ancients are involved. Most crucially, it confirms that your ultimate victory in Endwalker is not due to time loop predestination, but because of the collective efforts of everyone along the way.

all quotes, as ever, sourced from xiv.quest (except for some stuff from the very end of myths of the realm which i pulled from gamerescape). spoilers through endwalker follow.

(post-completion edit: this got insanely out of hand and way too long and it's honestly not even very insightful. you were warned.)

The way I see it, there are two broad versions of this question: First, why doesn't Venat warn the Ancients about the Final Days? And second, why doesn't she reach out to the Convocation and try to nip it in the bud?

To start with, let's get the answer straight from the source:

Venat cannot tell the Ancients generally because she cannot trust that they will not panic. No judgment should be taken as unquestionable, obviously, but Venat is a nigh-immortal scholar and researcher who also did a long stint as traveling counselor and savior and friendly neighborhood video game protagonist, who repeatedly and fervently declaims her love of the people of the world and her belief in their ability to surmount any obstacle if they simply find the strength within themselves. She has also, in-fiction, seen the wider world unsundered. Our exposure to the Ancients, on the other hand, is: her; the ruling council of their people, turned evil dimension-hopping wizards; a slice of particularly detached academics in a mad science lab (comedy version); a slice of particularly detached academics in a mad science lab (horror version). That's it! And of course, the revelation of the Final Days ultimately does result in panic and a series of increasingly drastic measures. While we only have her reasoning to go off of on this one, I don't know that there's any evidence that goes firmly against her reading of the situation.

As to the Convocation, she's right: the first time Hermes got the full picture of the Final Days, he immediately turned against you and tried to wipe your memories to prevent you from using your knowledge to stop them before they start. And that's really bad, because Hermes isn't just pretty important to stopping the Final Days: without the benefit of time-loop knowledge, he's the guy who draws the conclusion that connects the Final Days to the celestial currents of aether!

"Having shed light upon the phenomenon, he dedicated to himself to devising a countermeasure. Were it not for [Hermes's] knowledge of the celestial, we would never have made the connection—and thence forestalled the Final Days." Elidibus strongly implies here that Hermes is the guy who conceived of the Zodiark plan in the first place, or at least came up with the the mechanism by which Zodiark could actually use aether to protect Etheirys.

Hermes is a guy you absolutely have to have on your team if you're going to respond to the Final Days, because he is not just the guy who knows about dynamis. He is also, as far as we know, the only Ancient with a meaningful knowledge of outer space and celestial currents. Meteion herself is pretty explicitly parallel to a prototype space probe, a first-of-her-kind interstellar traveler. Given that the Ancients use magical concepts for seemingly nearly all their technology (there sure is a lot of stuff going on with crystals, I'll grant...but crystals are just aether, sometimes with concepts inscribed in them!), he is the closest thing they have to an aerospace engineer.

Space in FFXIV is obviously weird (no one's wearing a helmet on the moon, Midgardsormr flies through it, etc.), but nonetheless we know that space travel is difficult, and Hermes highlights in his explanation that Etheirys is unusually rich in aether while aether is much rarer in space generally. And we can surmise no one before him devised a way for the extremely aether-dense Ancients to travel and survive in space, or presumably that would have informed his own designs and he wouldn't have had to turn to under-researched dynamis. And we know no one worked with him on Meteion or understands anything about all the dynamis and, celestial currents stuff; Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch tell us as much.

Hermes might not be the literal only Ancient with knowledge of these things, but he is certainly the most knowledgeable, seemingly by a long shot. There is plenty of reason to believe the Ancients, while they have godlike power on Etheirys, don't have a huge body of working physics information. For example, the discovery and use of magnetism in creations was the signature achievement of Hermes' immediate predecessor as Fandaniel, per a Ktisis readable.

So you need Hermes, and cannot afford the possibility of losing him. Even with the benefit of the Warrior of Light's future knowledge, not having Hermes would fatally undermine any efforts by the Ancients to combat the Final Days—not only in terms of identifying which areas were likely to be affected, but also in terms of creating and implementing Zodiark, and with respect to any hypothetical "Ancients go to the edge of the universe to fight Meteion" plan.

That kind of full-spectrum involvement makes him only more dangerous. Sure, maybe you can approach the Convocation and convince them (and I'm not so sure of that: one of their members is there when you explain all this, after all, and he vehemently rejects the possibility right up until the moment the time-loop starts!), but how can you ever be safe with Hermes on board? Worse, what if this time he doesn't announce his betrayal? What's to stop him from building a flaw into Zodiark, or any one of the other plans along the way?

Well, but set the problem of Hermes aside for a second: why not approach other Convocation members? Aside from the information security concerns with Hermes, there's the fact that she already has some advance intel on that options. First, Emet-Selch already heard and experienced all these revelations, and he vehemently denied and rejected them. The only reason he ended up cooperative through the events of Ktisis is because "get to Hermes and stop Meteion" fulfills both your goals. You're literally out the door on your way to start the time loop post-Kairos and he's like "I still don't believe your future visions by the way! But if it's true then don't fuck it up!"

Second, if what you told her is true, Venat already has reason to believe Azem might not be willing to side with her. After all, one of the only pieces of knowledge you were able to pull directly from the records of the past is that even with 75% of the Ancient population sacrificed and preparations for the third sacrifice underway, Azem would not reply to the Anamnesis Anyder faction.

So she has good reason to believe her successor might not be willing to side with her, and she knows that successor's bestie will definitely counsel against trusting these future visions.

But what if she just shows them her memories and past events via the Echo? After all, reconstructing past events is a key part of your adventures in Elpis in the first place!

Venat can probably share her memories via Echo vision, but there's no reason to think that would work: after all, Emet-Selch was already there for most of these events and was still skeptical the whole way through. Plus, at that point you're really still just relying on Venat's testimony. Additional memory evidence certainly has some corroborating effect, it's not unimpeachable, particularly given the problem of Kairos. Hermes, Emet-Selch, and Hythlodaeus will all have memories that contradict Venat's because Kairos doesn't just erase memories, it straight up alters them.

But why not do the CSI crime scene reconstruction thing? Well, as Venat notes, those memories are prone to fading, and are etched on the aether of the world the same way memories are on the soul. So assuming, you were perfectly lucky and none of the aether got too altered by other events, you could reconstruct what happened from the moment Meteion connects to the hive mind . . . right up until everyone enters Ktisis Hyperboreia. Kairos functions by overwriting the memories etched into aether with yet more aether, and given that it targeted not just the group in the final room but the entirety of Ktisis Hyperboreia, it has presumably substantially altered whatever aetherial ripples remained of the day's events. Consider that if it's blotting out multiple days worth of memory over a large area (Ktisis Hyperboreia is a full-on spatial anomaly, after all), our only comparable event in lore is the Seventh Umbral Calamity. That's a lot of aether! Kairos moots any attempt to employ memory reconstruction as evidence.

So you can't tell everyone because they'll panic; you can't tell the Convocation because Hermes is untrustworthy; you can't tell the Convocation without Hermes because there's no point in recruiting the Convocation without Hermes because his expertise is what you actually need; even if you did want the Convocation without Hermes, there's reasons to believe that would go poorly; and you can't use the Echo to help you win them over because the well on memory-as-evidence is already poisoned thanks to Hermes inventing Kairos.

A brief interlude on the possibility of the Ancients getting to and fighting Meteion. Links to sources only because this post is already stupid long. Okay, pretend we perfectly secure Hermes on-side and rally all the Ancients. After making Zodiark early thanks to Venat's warning, the remaining 50% of the population sets to work on the problem of space travel to Ultima Thule. It'll be a lengthy process, since devising the propulsion systems of the moon took the Loporrits six thousand years, but sure, it's not like lifespan is a big issue for the Ancients. Then there's the matter of having enough energy to get there; Hydaelyn accumulates the aether of the Mothercrystal for over twelve thousand years to make that happen. But maybe we shortcut that with human sacrifice again. Okay, we've flown a spaceship full of Ancients to Ultima Thule. They can't do anything here because the dynamis is too thick for aether to do anything. Your allies can only reshape the reality of Ultima Thule to allow aether-based life to exist via dynamis in the first place. The Ancients themselves seem largely unable to interact with dynamis. Any familiars or entelechies they could try to use against Meteion would probably be overwhelmed by the transformative power of her own critical mass of dynamis. Probably your best bet is to send in wave after wave of Ancients to die in a delaying action while Hermes in the way way back with a megaphone tries to persuade Meteion to chill out? Part of the whole Endwalker thing is that the Warrior of Light's victory is an incredible piece of luck enabled by a whole host of actions both intentional and accidental. The thing about miraculous victories is they're miraculous because they were otherwise exceedingly unlikely!

"Well," one might ask, "shouldn't there still be something she can do? Couldn't she reach out to trusted friends to share this information and work to stop the Final Days and persuade the Convocation without accidentally reconnecting Hermes to the knowledge that caused this problem in the first place?" And the answer is: Yes, that's what she does! It just doesn't go great and results in the creation of Hydaelyn!

As you are departing, Venat confirms to you that she will try to find a different way to resist the Final Days. She also tells you that she will not take for granted that the future you have told her will come to pass, and will simply do her best to try to fight the Final Days.

We have a good sense of the results of her efforts because her closest and most trusted allies are left behind as the Twelve and the Watcher. Rhalgr and Oschon were literally just fellow travelers she met during his journeys. Nald'thal was a merchant. Nophica was a landscape architect. Probably the most outwardly accomplished members of their number were Halone (candidate for the seat of Pashtarot), Thaliak (brilliant university president), and Menphina (brilliant university student). They were, sometimes literally, just some guys she found by the side of the road.

The truth is that Venat's message and efforts were simply not that popular in the unsundered world. We see her efforts to reach the people, conveyed allegorically, in the Thou Must Live, Die, and Know cutscene: her appeal to the better natures of her countrymen fails. They cannot be deterred from their path of sacrificing the lives of others for their own comfort.

The result of Venat's best work to rally the world against the Final Days, outside the auspices of the Convocation, is the Anyder faction. And the Anyder faction, though it makes its case to the Convocation and to others, ultimately cannot win enough people over to shake the Convocation from its intentions.

The Ancient world in FFXIV often operates in a heightened register. From the name references that invoke Greek mythology and Utopia to aesthetic elements like their theatrical masks and genre-breaking art deco architecture, the game takes pains to emphasize how otherworldly the Ancients are. This helps make their stories work emotionally. Emet-Selch and Elidibus and Lahabrea are personally responsible for six worldwide genocides, plus countless other associated sins. Even in the already heightened fantasy world of FFXIV, trying to take their stories semi-seriously would break them down. Instead, the game uses a number of cues (Emet-Selch's dramatic nature and taste for literary allusion help considerably here, as does the English localization consciously adopting slightly archaic language) to indicate to the player that the Ancients' story is being told in an epic register, that they are a fairy tale, that their story is a creation myth.

Being a fairy tale or myth means that things can be narratively true about the Ancients which would otherwise not work in FFXIV, a story which tends to shoot for some degree of psychological verisimilitude. A person can survive untold millennia as the only remaining sane member of their people, retain their sanity, and never waver in their mission or crack under the pressure. Three-quarters of the world rising up to spontaneously sacrifice themselves out of love and kindness and a belief in the value of the natural world. In Hermes' case, we are literally directly shown and told, by both magical empathic bird-girl and magical mood ring flower, that he is literally not just the Saddest Man in Elpis, but the Only Sad Man in Elpis. People often poke at this point reflexively ("Why doesn't Hermes go to therapy?"), but his despair is not just all-encompassing and overwhelming. It is literally inexplicable and unfamiliar to the Ancients around him.

Similarly, Venat, actual wandering superhero and benevolent demiurge possessed of an inexhaustible love for humanity and surpassing skill in every field, scours the earth and comes up with just thirteen people (or like, them plus a few) who are willing to stand against the Convocation. Venat does use her time-loop knowledge to spur on a parallel effort to fight off the Final Days. It doesn't work because the Convocation's plans not only have the weight of formal authority behind them, but because the Ancients overwhelmingly did not want to accept their losses, form a plan of action, and fight back. They wanted to undo their pain and suffering now, as fast as possible, and damn the consequences or whatever other lives it cost. If this feels unrealistically emotionally extreme, that's par for the course for the tone of the narrative around the Ancients.

The truth is Venat was just doing the best she could with the knowledge she had and the understanding she had of the arena she was in. She doesn't end up forming the Twelve and sundering the world because she heard about it from the Warrior of Light—the Warrior of Light comes from a world in which she formed the Twelve and sundered the world because that is what she always already would have done in this situation.

We can surmise as much from how the time loop works across the rest of the game: even though there is always at least one person in the timeline who knows about the time loop, events always play out in a way that requires other people to exercise their free will, and those choices end up aligning with the time loop even absent the knowledge of the future. Either the Warrior of Light or Venat (also Fandaniel, now that I think about it, but I don't know of any meaningful insights to glean from that) is aware of the possibility of the time loop at all times: she knows about it from Elpis onward, then shows up in the boat at the start of Endwalker to say "hey fyi you're entering the Time Loop Zone," then you end up in the past with future knowledge of stuff up until you hit the time loop reset point and the whole thing starts again. But in the game through Endwalker, that knowledge never controls events; you and Hydaelyn are only ever individuals on a board with many players, and much of making the time loop work ultimately relies on the Ascians, a group we can definitely say both lacks time loop knowledge (except, again, Fandaniel) and is actively working to frustrate Hydaelyn's ends. On a broader thematic note, consider Zenos: he's ultimately crucial to your victory, and he's a complete wild card whose most important actions you could not possibly have told Venat about because they only happen after your return from Elpis. You don't win because you are predestined to win. You win because many people collectively take small actions which happen to, luckily, line up with ultimate victory.

The Elpis time loop only functions because of countless and almost entirely unknowing large and small actions by more or less every character in the game, and results from and is defined by those actions, rather than structuring and defining those actions. It's not that Venat, armed with knowledge of the future, chooses the time loop instead of averting the Final Days. It's that the time loop results from and incorporates a future-influenced Venat doing everything she can to avert the Final Days.

[vierabathwater]

Hi thinking about this scene with Emet-Selch and. Yes, he IS heartbroken but he views it as Azem's fault. Damn Epione, he thinks, for not going along with the Zodiark plan.

I've talked about the parallels they share, in some aspects, with Anidala. This is the biggest one: the one that dies(by their partner's hand, seemingly*) has their death viewed as their own fault at first. Only later does the partner actually at fault realized their own fault--and how much they fucked up. So here's Emet-Selch, begging Sigrun to recognize him in someway. He knows she's Epione reincarnated, he just wants to know if they(Epione) still love him somehow.

*I'm a proponent of the "Palpatine hurried Padmé's death/drained her to keep Vader alive" theory, but as we know, Anakin DID choke her. I write Emet-Selch as having actually killed Azem.

[tinkertechy]

Playing with a FFXIV Lore idea

spoilers for ShB-EW below the cut; this is a Lore idea that isn't even fully canon to my WoL, it's mostly just a fun premise but is ultimately too OP/Gamey to be taken seriously as lore. Mostly.

So after the final fight with Hades, and he commissions the WoL to 'Remember that we once lived', the spirit of Azem basically wakes up and says 'bet'. In doing so they grant the WoL an upgraded version of the Echo, with a new power; Echoing.

Echoing allows the WoL to enter an enhanced state of being, taking on elements based on whatever soul/entity/concept they are 'Echoing.' Wings are common, but not required. The body practically glows with Aether, And their voice reverberates with a thousand others. music can even be heard, for those with good hearing. It's an extremely powerful but extremely taxing form, and as such the WoL only uses it in fights they can't afford to lose. (Sorry, Bakool Ja Ja, you live this time.)

However, Echoing is not without cost; not only is Tinka extremely drained after each use, but the full weight of whatever burden her Echo was carrying falls upon her soul during the Echoing. She is the living Echo of those who have come before, and even those who may come after.

She has four forms total, and an astute observer or Scion may notice that there is a common thread:

Hades: The Voice of Death

Elidibus: The Voice of Hope

Zodiark: The Voice of Desperation

Hyadelyn: The Voice of the Star

The Voice of Desperation is the riskiest to use, and the Voice of the Star the most powerful. However, Tinka's sorrow/melancholy is the greatest after using it. The Scions have learned how to look after her until she can mentally recover.

Now, you may have noticed a parallel between the Echoing and KHII's Drive forms. It's a fun parallel that works really well! And to continue that parallel, there's a secret 5th form that's unlocked in a 'AU' Expac that would actually allow me to do a timeskip. The Voice of the Traveler is Azem's love of adventure and the distilled spirit of Tinka's own travels, spreading both peace and 'don't make me come over there' in equal measure. Because it mostly draws from Tinka's own memories and will it is far less taxing for her to use, but because it also draws from Azem... mental stability may vary.

[crimsonlawofeorzea]

DAWNTRAIL SPOILERS!!

I know it’s been a few weeks since I got through the MSQ, but I do think it’s interesting how Sphene is essentially a parallel to both Emet Selch and Themis/Elidibus. I’m honestly surprised the game doesn’t give our character the options to acknowledge it, because like…

For one thing, Sphene is so unable to let go of the past and the people she loved that she built an entire simulacrum of a city where the memories of the dead can reenact more peaceful and idyllic times. Sound familiar? Not to mention her insistence on sacrificing another civilization for the sake of preserving the dead, not unlike how Emet Selch was prepared to sacrifice all the sundered to bring back the ancients who have long since ceased to be.

Then you have the fact that the Sphene we know isn’t even the true, original Sphene, but rather an amalgamation of her memories and other bits put together when she was reconstructed as an Endless. In life, she was still a prominent figure in Alexandria who her people respected greatly, and then when she became an Endless she was heralded as the last hope for her people. This is very reminiscent of how Themis and how he had to sacrifice his own sense of self in order to become Zodiark’s heart and save his people.

It really is an example of how those who cannot learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, and given our character’s experiences it baffles me that we didn’t get to have a scene towards the end where we got to talk to her about Emet’s and Themis’s tragedies.

[zeledonia]

misc slightly underbaked thoughts abt DT i have rn that are probably only gonna multiply once ive had time to let everything marinate in my brain:

- I enjoyed Gulool Ja Ja's role as the "WoL of Tural" lol. It's been really entertaining to me to travel the continent and hear about all the cool and all the wacky stuff him and his scions gang were up to, seeing everyone react with a mixture of awe and 'what do you MEAN he did that', and realize that this is just. This is what the WoL must look like to everyone who wasn't around for the action. We're experiencing the impact of a character much like the WoL, but from an outside perspective this time. - I thought the parts of the story dealing with accepting loss and grief as a part of life were very heartfelt, and some of them hit very close to home. I liked how well it tied in with what Venat told her people in Endwalker, about how she believes that people must not cling to the things they have lost and instead learn to take the loss into their hearts and move forward. There's smth to be said about the parallels between the supporters of the Zodiark plan, and the system powering the Endless. Being so set on the idea of cheating death and loss by bringing back/keeping around those that have been lost, at the cost of lives that have yet to be lived fully. - This is a small-ish thing but I thought it was a neat idea that the sidequests in Living Memory unlocked as you erased the areas, and them being your chance to help people 'finish their affairs', so to speak. Y'know, it kind of reminded me of the Aitiascope in a way - souls staying behind because they have unresolved issues that prevent them from moving on, and this time you get the chance to help. - Ok this one is deeply personal but everything about the various different relationships the promises had with Gulool Ja Ja, and the elements around legacy and exploring how the person who raised you lives on in you came at a pretty vulnerable part in my life and made me think. A lot. My family unexpectedly lost my father a little less than two years ago. Needless to say we've been grappling with the hole he left behind and the footsteps he left to fill. Watching the characters ponder over things like "what part lives on in me" and "how can I carry the responsibilities that used to be his" definitely hit me in some kinda way.

[edenrabbitnest]

the most obvious parallel is hydaelyn vs zodiark/aideen vs garnok but we can push it further. ascian dark riders. voidsent ydris. anne being locked in pandoria and coming out with crystal-like scars on her face vs g'raha being locked in the crystal tower and coming out with a partially crystallized body. several extreme difficulty fights in ffxiv give magic horses as rewards

[kittycatblast]

autism demands i search if one other person is drawing parallels between the dynamic of hydaelyn and zodiark to that of princess celestia and luna

[ihaveatypeanditstrickstergods]

Dawntrail Ariadne Thoughts

Post-Endwalker, Ariadne has a physical body again (thanks to the creation magics that Venat banked in the Azem stone), and has gone off to see what Etheriys is like now

And also because Kore is still (justifiably) pissed at her for the whole attempted bodysnatching thing (which, to be clear, Ariadne does regret), so putting space between them is probably the best course of action for everyone involved.

So she actually ends up heading to Tural before Kore and the Scions do and is just kind of there vibing for a while

I was trying to land on a reason for why she chooses to go there first, and I've tossed around a few ideas, but I really like the idea of her being somewhere there when the Sundering happened.

My logic for the above is that by the sound of things, Tural didn't get hit as hard by the Final Days in Endwalker as everywhere else did, so it was probably one of the later spots to get hit back during the original Final Days, which would have made it a good spot for Ariadne to find monsters to fight and people to save after her big fights with Hades and Venat (there is logic there. trust).

She's there for all of Dawntrail, but Yok Tural is a big place and Ariadne's keeping a low profile, so she and Kore don't really cross paths until, well...

We're descending into second half of Dawntrail spoilers here, so adding a read more

Ariadne is in Tuliyollal when Shit Goes Down. It's triggering. She helps as much as she can and has flashbacks to the Final Days while doing so.

At this point her presence becomes known to Kore and the Scions and some awkward introductions are made

I don't know if Ariadne is part of the train stuff to get into the dome, but she definitely ends up in there either at the same time as or shortly after Kore and Wuk Lamat and them

Mostly I need her to be there for the last chunk of Alexandria, for a couple of reasons, namely:

Ariadne is a copy of the original Ariadne's memories (and some of Hades' memories of her) inhibiting a body created out of creation magics. There are an uncomfortable amount of parallels to be drawn with the Endless (ngl, I screamed when I realized how well I'd nailed down the way that souls and memory work in xiv)

I need Kore, Ariadne, and Sphene debating the ethics of wiping out one people to save another like I need oxygen. Like, Kore has had or been around this argument enough times that she's fucking sick of it, and Ariadne is the one who rejected both Zodiark and Hydaelyn (by which I mean the WoL and the stable time loop) as solutions because she was convinced she could develop a solution that fixed the core problem without anyone going extinct.

[wordofazem]

The idea of Themis being Venat's son kills me. The parallels. Zodiark n Hydaelyn. Help

[wildfyrevalkyrie]

was thinking abt dawntrail and realized that i dont think we got a 14 rendition of this song yet?

i’ll be legit shook if we dont cuz its like the iconic song from 9

spoilers for ff9 and ff14 dawntrail msq below the cut

in 9, while zidane is the primary party member and the first character you meet, he’s not the main focus of the story. instead he’s usually supporting the rest of the cast in their personal journeys, ie, garnet in her growth from sheltered princess to queen of alexandria; vivi as he grapples with what he is and how short his life will be

and then it’s zidane’d turn to be the focus, to go through his darkest hour. and this song plays as his friends come to support him through it and chastise him for trying to tackle it alone. (vid of the sequence for reference)

since dt is pulling from 9, i could see a remix/reorchestration being used for the wol, given that we’re roughly paralleling zidane this expac—especially with the whole “we’re the main playable character but are mainly supporting other characters’ arcs”

like we literally help a princess promise become ready to take up the responsibility of queen dawnservant and support her when her country is attacked by invaders from another world. and you can draw additional parallels between krile and vivi (gaining self-confidence and self-discovery: what am i/where did i come from) and erenville and freya (wanderers who haven’t been home in years who finally return only for that home to have been destroyed shortly before they get there)

and like how rad would it be if there was a solo duty where the wol tries to tackle a problem alone, either bc thats how circumstances worked out (like with zodiark) or bc of a conscious choice on our part (like with the endsinger), and as we’re struggling (ie there are mechanics in the duty that are literally too far apart and we physically cant be everywhere at once) the scions come in accompanied by this banger?? (maybe adding more instruments as more of them arrive? a wol can dream) fuck it, maybe the azem crystal’s acting quirked up for some reason bc lets be real, between our reliance on it in ew and the post-credits scene suggesting we’re gonna be poking into azem-adjacent lore, we have it coming, idc. point is that would be hype as fuck and an alright homage besides.

[tritoch]

the damsel and the hero: some thoughts on minfilia and elidibus

I get why many people have (understandable, justified, legitimate) gripes to this day about how Minfilia was handled, but I think you don't have to change anything about how she's presented in game to arrive at a reading that lets her feel like more than a sacrificial victim. Within the game as it exists, Minfilia is already a rich and layered heroic character. She is not a damsel or a tragic hero but a victorious figure whose very exit from the narrative affirmed her own ideals, and she controlled her own destiny to the end. All you have to do to see this more clearly is read her against one of her underexamined foils: Elidibus.

Spoilers through the end of Pandemonium (6.4) below.

After 5.3 dropped, the devs mentioned that because they basically had to develop and pay off Elidibus in the space of a patch or two, they drew conscious parallels between him and other characters. The game highlights the G'raha parallels in the scene just before Seat of Sacrifice. There's also the parallels to Alphinaud that people have noticed in both the broad strokes of their characterization (idealistic short kings who believe in the power of rhetoric and diplomacy to achieve true and lasting understanding between people, whose mission to save the world is forever held in balance with their duty to save those they love) and in specific lines of dialogue.

But a far more direct narrative parallel than either character is Minfilia. Like Elidibus and Zodiark, Minfilia offered herself to Hydaelyn, serving as the Word of the Mother, only to be called forth once more when an intractable conflict between her allies threatened the stability of the world. Both were messianic young figures who nonetheless lead their older allies by both example and command. Both, seeing an opportunity to save not just their close friends but everyone, offered themselves up to a higher power in an act not of desperation but of deliberate will. You can even poetically gloss both Antecedent and Emissary as "The One That Goes Before."

The difference between the two of them is that at every turn, where Elidibus failed, Minfilia succeeded.

Elidibus returned to broker peace between the Hydaelyn faction and the Convocation. He failed, and the result was the Sundering. Minfilia, entreated by Urianger, came back to resolve the conflict between the Warriors of Darkness (Hydaelyn's champions and Warriors of Light themselves) and the Scions, and succeeded in saving two worlds by her actions.

But more than that, Elidibus provided us a picture of what it actually looks like to lose your identity to a primal like Zodiark. He'd lived a thousand thousand lifetimes as himself and he was so broken he could scarcely remember anything more than his name and his duty. He is one of the most explicitly tragic figures in all of FFXIV, and his final sendoff in 5.3 was an image of him plagued by unanswerable grief, which for him was a consequence of his failure: "The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it."

Meanwhile, in the preceding expansion, you actually had the chance to spend multiple scenes with Minfilia and they're all extremely clear: unlike Ardbert or Elidibus, after 100 years this was still Minfilia, she remained resolute in her mission to see the First saved, but she had not forgotten the woman she was or the people she loved. In both 3.4 and 5.0, she went out as herself, head held high.

Speaking to the Warrior of Light before she departs for the First: "So many times have I watched you depart, my heart filled with worry, and ever did you return to me in triumph. Someday, when I have found a way to free this star from Her sorrow, I promise you I shall repay the favor."

Her final words to Ryne: "No one, however powerful, is immune to the whisperings of doubt and despair. Do not give in to them, but do not deny them either. Look instead to the light within, that you may continue to serve as a beacon to others."

In both instances, we were given a Minfilia who had not merely accepted her fate, but who had chosen it of her own volition and rose confidently to meet it, even imparting to her successor some final hard-won words of wisdom. And unlike Elidibus, she met her friends again at duty's end; they live, and they are happy, and she is content. She's already heroic, but the contrast to Elidibus (and Ardbert, and Emet) underlines the extent to which we should see her as extraordinarily driven, self-possessed and ultimately victorious on her own terms.

And in making the connection between Elidibus and Minfilia, we can begin to let Elidibus's characterization inform hers in retrospect.

Elidibus as we see him in 5.3 and earlier more specifically paralleled Minfilia as the Word of the Mother. Prior to that point in her arc, Minfilia's parallel was Themis, the pre-Zodiark Elidibus we glimpse briefly in the 5.3 Echo flashbacks and would only meet properly an expansion later in Pandemonium. The important thing about Themis for our purposes is that he was not some naive or too-young figurehead tricked into serving as Zodiark's Emissary. This was not a Crystal Braves situation for him. In Pandemonium, you can see how the kind of man Themis was very clearly lead to him choosing to be offered up to Zodiark. He took seriously the principles and duties of the Convocation. He valued dearly the lives of all people generally and his friends and comrades in particular, but held those truths in balance rather than prizing one. He was rational, clear-sighted, and decisive.

All of these, obviously, were true of Minfilia. And unlike Elidibus, whose ascension into Zodiark was forever somewhat obscured by the narrative, we were quite close to Minfilia before she became the Word of the Mother. We were quite familiar with her grief and guilt over surviving where Louisoix did not, her fear that she could neither fill his shoes as a leader nor serve in action as others did. She confided in us about the difficulty of her task in serving as the pillar of strength and guiding light for the rest of the Scions. She despaired alongside the player character at both the death of Moenbryda and the disastrous events of the Banquet. We know what she believed, what she valued, what she feared, what frustrated her. When she chose to depart for the First, it paid off very directly everything else the game has said about her through 3.4. Her arc was one of trepidation and doubt, and it ended in her ultimate victory and an astonishingly clean win that compromises none of her values.

Both Urianger and some fans raised the question of whether it was wrong for Urianger to ever offer her the choice of sacrificing herself for the First at all. Minfilia, for her part, got a chance to speak to this directly: "Have we not walked together in the light of the Crystal, and at Her bidding borne witness to the joys and sorrows of this land? Each and every one of you knows my heart. If this be the price I must pay, I pay it gladly." It did not matter whether she was given this particular decision or not. You could have offered her this dilemma in a thousand different permutations in a thousand thousand different scenarios. This was the choice she made. This was her choice, forever and always: to save everyone she can, in honor of those she loves.

Candidly, I understand critiques of Minfilia's writing far better than any praise it could ever receive. Nothing I've written above answers the clear and obvious truths that she is underwritten, that she does not get much to do or much screentime for a putatively important character, that it is very easy and common to read her death as a fridging, that she is unfairly dismissed by many due to her role in the narrative and the way she leaves it. Her sacrifice plays into specific gendered tropes that are disappointingly common to see. Those things all remain true.

But I think as we remember those things we should also keep in mind that she does still get a complete arc that is interesting and thematically rich in itself, and which puts her in some senses on the same level in the narrative as characters like Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Ardbert.

Her sacrifice continues to inform the game. Her literal ghost returns to affirm the truth and value of her beliefs and the choices she made. Her guiding words ("For those we have lost, for those we can yet save") remain a mantra not just for the Scions but specifically for the player character. They are not an empty slogan. The phrase succinctly conveys an ideal of all-encompassing humanism and compassion arising from grief. The ideal those words represent is one of many organizing principles and responses to grief that the game examines (because a lot of FFXIV is about grief and how we respond to tragedy and change), it is Minfilia who develops and articulates it, and it is the one the heroes continue to align themselves with. It is the same principle that leads her to the First, and G'raha, and us too. It is Minfilia's ideals--Minfilia's heroism--which continue to serve as the model to which the Warrior of Light aspires, in the game's text.

Truthfully, my gripe is this. I think it is very easy to imagine a male Minfilia--same lines, same screentime, same blocking, same ass cut-out--appearing in place of the Minfilia we have. And I feel quite sincerely, and quite frustratedly, that if we had Malefilia, both the fans and detractors of that character would ascribe to him more thoughtfulness and more thematic depth than the Minfilia we already have, even though their lines would be exactly the same. We are so ready to see the damsel we expect in Minfilia that we are unwilling to see her as the hero she is in the text, and my hope is that by holding her up to her mirror, Elidibus, we may see her as a rich character in her own right all the more clearly.

[lady-protector]

assorted etheirys mythological lore thoughts

on the Twelve and the Convocation:

we know that post-sundering, that humanity lost all culture, language, civilization, and magic (at least from the biased perspective of Emet-Selch). from what we've seen from Myths of the Realm, the Twelve seem to be creations of Hydaelyn, each associated with certain virtues/important elements of civilization. it's possible that Hydaelyn made them in order to have them guide the sundered peoples, to restore to them a measure of what was lost. this could be supported by the practice of certain regions/peoples having patron deities -- it's possible this was born from the ancestors of those groups being guided by that specific member of the Twelve.

meanwhile, we know that the Ascians were doing this same thing on the shards while working towards Rejoinings -- it's very possible/likely that they did the same on the Source as well (especially before a Rejoining method was devised)

so if we look at Hydaelyn, the Watcher, and the Twelve as a single group, and then Zodiark and the Convocation of Thirteen as another, you have two groups of fourteen deities, each led by an elder primal. on the side of light, you have the Watcher, whose duty is to maintain balance via the imprisoning of Zodiark and never intervenes, no matter what; and on the side of darkness you have Elidibus, the Emissary, tasked with maintaining the balance between light and dark to the extent that he sometimes works seemingly against the efforts of the other Ascians. The Watcher almost seems like an anti-Emissary of sorts.

it's possible that, given Venat's immense respect for the Convocation of Fourteen, that she might have loosely patterned her Twelve after the duties of the Convocation -- perhaps the management of sea creatures that was under Mitron's purview became Llymlaen, and Nophica, the earth goddess who created life, was inspired by the position of Loghrif, who had responsibility for terrestrial creatures. this aligns with my pet theory that Nald'thal is connected to Emet-Selch (there are interesting visual motif similarities between Hades and Nald'thal statues, Emet-Selch as ruled by Gemini and Nald'thal's status as twins) -- specifically the two men, considered nigh-inseparable, who were considered for the position.

au ra-specific mythological musings:

the au ra have two primary deities (Azim, the dawn father, and Nhaama, the dusk mother) as well as some vague mentions of "elder gods" worshiped by the Mol -- who seem to have some interesting insight, if Temulun is anything to go by.

on a possibly unrelated note, golden-scaled Bahamut and dark-scaled Tiamat are known by the titles of the Dawn Dragon and Dusk Dragon.

it's possible that the au ra originally had an entire pantheon of deities (the Mol's elder gods) but upon an encounter with Bahamut and Tiamat, the au ra saw two horned, scaled, tailed beings of enormous power, one golden like the raen and one dark like the xaela, and might have identified the wyrms as two pre-existing members of their pantheon (Azim and Nhaama). perhaps these two were always the creators of the au ra, or maybe that attribute was ascribed to them based on the physical similarities to each dragon.

having developed two separate near-monotheistic religious traditions around Azim and Nhaama, when the tribes inevitably came into ideological/territorial conflict, it would have been easy to gradually rewrite their mythologies to make Azim/Bahamut and Nhaama/Tiamat mortal enemies instead of partners as propaganda.

meanwhile, the rest of the original auri pantheon (which may or may not have links to the Twelve -- Urianger certainly draws parallels between Azem-Azim-Azeyma, and Nhaama and Nymeia sound similar/have overlapping associations of darkness/night and fate to a certain extent) only exists in the worship of the elder gods by the Mol, and perhaps the practice of kami worship by some raen. we know that the raen absorb a lot of cultural practices from the cultures they assimilate into, but the lorebook also states that a great deal of Hingan/Doman culture is rooted in raen traditions, so it's unclear from which the concept of the kami arose.

[aotopmha]

Made it up to the 5.3 trial in FF14, specifically the cutscenes that follow it, but stopped right after for now.

Spoilers!

I think a criticism I can levy at the patch content of FF14 is that it often feels like a retread of the ideas in the main expansion. And I think Elidibus is probably the strongest example up to this point in the story.

It is very much Emet-Selch, but done "again", however, in my eyes what makes it work is the emphasis on a different aspect of the Ascians' struggle: duty.

The pain of loss and loneliness is there for sure, and so is the exploitation of the good and bad in humanity and the idea of legacy and remembrence, even the single-mindedness itself is there in Emet, but the single strongest keyword for Elidibus is duty and his tunnel vision regarding his duty.

It's where the emphasis lies that actually makes them very different characters.

While Emet's singular, emphasised obsession is the return of his people no matter the cost, for Elidibus it is specifically his duty, perhaps his role as the heart of Zodiark, as someone who is a primal.

A mantra without any basis but the vague notion of a promise to someone.

I think the parallel I find the most interesting is the one the narrative draws with the Exarch.

Because he, too, functions based on a promise to someone, a singular, tunnel-visioned idea of saving you.

And the response he gives isn't one that villainises Elidibus, but rather gives context from his perspective. He chose his course because of his personal experiences and the course his life took, as did Elidibus.

They both do what they believe is right. I think Elidibus is probably one of the most straight-forward examples of a villain sharing the conviction with the heroes and believing they are in the right in this game.

The only difference truly is the path they've walked – more specifically their memories.

Elidibus is confused about what he believes in and what he fights for because his memory has faded, so he clings to his empty mantra without ever truly thinking about it.

As a consequence of this, unlike Emet, he is pretty uncompromising. We are the villain, he is the hero, no ands, ifs or buts.

Instead of trying to find common ground with you like Emet, he tells you how morally wrong you are for doing what you do, and how morally wrong everything you have done across your entire journey is because it involves violence.

You kill anything, without any thought, just as you are bid.

He is a Warrior of Light saving the world, just like Ardbert and I like how Ardbert periodically comes through from him, just how he acted a lot like Zenos when he was in his body.

His entire thing is conviction without substance.

And I like how Y'Shtola cuts right through it all and points out how the ancients aren't exactly flawless, either.

He tells you how the sundered forget, but he himself has done so, too.

I think it's really cool they managed to make him a full-fledged character that makes sense essentially in just 5.3.

The other big reveal is you being the Seat of Azem, which I love because they somehow managed to give you a position in the story you can choose the significance of; I think making just being an Adventurer/Person of the People a cool special position is really neat.

You can view yourself as the coolest and the strongest if you so wish, but you can also view yourself as a simple traveller and anything between these two aspects because you do your own thing.

Your significance as the Seat of Azem is about what you represent and that you matter, not actually about how special you are. The story kind of allows you to choose how special you actually are.

I have a lot of thoughts about the Seat of Azem, but to me the one that strikes me the most right now is the discourse around you being The Chosen One. Because I see so many people categorise the idea as such and I think the role of Azem doesn't necessarily make you The Chosen One trope.

Among other things, I for example really like the idea of a Big Good in the world. A character that is simply good with no ifs, ands or buts attached to it.

I think you can be any of that because of the vagueness of the role of Azem. It's fantastic food for RP.

Maybe your Azem is a chaotic trickster, maybe a prideful defector from the unflexible, close-minded Convocation.

Perhaps they are a champion of anti-conformism, an odd one out that cares about the people more than anyone on the Convocation as someone with perspective and empathy for common folk, a hero of the people.

Azem is so wonderful because of how mysterious and open-ended the role is and I hope this aspect of your character is one that won't be given a much more concrete picture, though I can think of a number of ways you can make a more concrete Azem work, I prefer the freedom of interpretation regarding the role.

So in light of that, I ask, what are y'all takes on Azem?

[linelpisffxiv]

Someone made the "Can a depressed person do this?" meme that people co-opted for Emet and Amaurot and every time I see it I'm like... "Emet-Selch, Hades, my brother, only a depressed person can make this." in the Teri voice. They've mourned the loss of their home for much of the 12k years, but they no longer grieve. They remember it as it was, warts and all, and carry it in their heart, but while during ShB Teri hated Hydaelyn and even finding out she's their literal mother only did so much to quell the issues they had with Hydaelyn, but they know that ultimately, it was a better decision at the time than the endless sacrifices demanded by Zodiark.

Teri has moved forward. Emet is stuck in the past. It's why they're just as much Narrative Foils as Emet is with G'raha. (Teri and G'raha aren't Narrative Foils, but they do have parallels between them)

[cloudsmovingcastle]

Also, it’s kind of funny to see everyone act so surprised by the assertion that Hydaelyn and Zodiark are Primals, because like… Duh?

The parallels are pretty obvious, this is not surprising to me at all XD

Though it’ll be interesting if we ever get to hear Hydaelyn’s version of events…