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leonawriter · 5 months ago

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Ayin, Carmen, and the Circles of Hell Project Moon's Works

First off, what I wanted to go over here is the assumption that at least someone must have started playing through these games without a full picture of who these important people are and what, exactly, is going on.

Part of what makes the games so special to me is the way that they're all narrated, in that... each and every single one so far (three games, but also the webcomics and webnovels so far) has been told by an unreliable narrator - either of the events they're telling, or of their own inner world.

In this post, I'm hoping to tie the games together in as objective way as possible, using as much game/official-backed fact as I can, but I can't promise to be an "unbiased narrator" myself, since there are certain stances I take and theories I back.

That said: expect spoilers for Lobotomy Corporation, Library of Ruina, Leviathan (Vergilius' backstory), and all currently released Cantos and Intervallos (so far, up to 7.5).

Okay.

To start off, I'm going to have to go right back to the beginning.

No, not the backstory of Lobotomy Corporation.

More like "What even is the City" - because unless we can understand that, we can't really say we can understand who these characters are, and why they're doing these things. The setting informs characterisation and cultural norms, after all.

The City is, basically, as those who've played or otherwise experienced Library of Ruina and Limbus Company will know, comprised of the Wings (districts) and then further divided into the Nests (where everyone wants to live, where it's safer), and the Backstreets (where no one really wants to live, but many have to). The main driving motivation for most peoples' lives is that they have to become employable to either a good organisation (legal or not) that will provide for them, as the moment they are not of use they will be fired and/or disposed of.

In other words, your life does not belong to "you." Your life belongs to "the City."

All of that stuff we hear all the time about "find work that you enjoy!"? Yeah, no, the most important thing is to a) stay alive at all, and b) find work that will enable you to stay alive. Being able to keep morals? That's a luxury.

The world (which as far as anyone is concerned here, IS the City) is run by people who do not care about the well-being of others, and "good" people get ground up by it, eventually learning to harden their hearts.

Now that we've got that out of the way...

I can actually go into who the characters are.

First off, and most importantly (and obviously, going by the title) we have Ayin, Benjamin, and Carmen. Later on in Lobotomy Corporation known as "A, B, and C."

We don't know much about them before a certain point. We can, however, easily see that all three of them were from a Nest, rather than the Backstreets; of the original Outskirts lab, only Kali (Gebura) was Backstreets, and both Enoch and Lisa were from the Outskirts. This means that all three must have scored highly in certain exams in order to stay inside their Nest (which ones, though, we don't know yet) as was brought up in an early chapter of Distortion Detective.

For all of Lobotomy Corporation, we see things through Ayin's eyes, and we really only see the events that lead up to the founding of the Facility that "X" (AKA, Ayin's future looped self) is running. Since we only see the worst moments, we aren't really allowed to see the good times. We're allowed to see some very relevant quiet moments, but other than that it's few and far between.

What we DO know, and that we can in fact take on board that is highly important, is that Carmen had a big dream of wanting to improve things for people, on an individual basis, and she was very good at pulling people around to her way of thinking. This is not an exaggeration, or a matter of bias; this woman would go on to recruit people from all sorts of backgrounds, from both the Nests and the Backstreets. She would walk more or less alone in the Backstreets, and as far as we know did not have a bodyguard (or adjacent) until she recruited Kali, a Grade 2 Fixer. Carmen's ability to recruit all sorts of people would later be compared to that of a cult leader in Library of Ruina, and by someone who knew a lot about the City.

(This isn't the only time Roland says something like that; he also brings it up with Netzach.)

Ayin, who would be Carmen's junior, followed after her, listened to her, paid her a lot of attention, did as he was asked, and as we see Angela later state, he would look at Carmen "warmly."

Ayin would also be the one who would end up being blamed for, or the cause of, the worst of what happened, for one reason or another. Much of this was, I would say, either 50/50 fault of the future Sephirot making bad decisions, and Ayin himself having no idea how to communicate with them in a way that would prevent such incidents, or outright being unable to.

Simply looking at him and the way that A describes things, as well as the way that Manager X would later respond to things, tells the story of someone who quite literally had trouble communicating and connecting with other people. After Malkuth's meltdown, when A is talking about and recalling Elijah, we see the line "It was only after a very long time that I realised giving praise every once in a while may have been a good idea." When introduced to Kali, it's pointed out that he seems to be "glaring" at her, and Carmen says that he "always has a serious look on his face."

There are other lines and aspects from other scenes, but going into how and why I see Ayin as autistic is for another post, really. The important part is that the game shows us that he is perceived as cold and distant by others, yet most often only figures out how to interact in a way that grants the social benefits he and others require once it is already too late.

There is also the fact that a lot of his reactions (both in the past, and in the present) are... very human. No one can give the perfect response of a hero while in a traumatic moment. Chesed actually outright states this during one of the flashbacks about himself.

So we have Carmen, whose dream was to have a "beautiful voice" that "everyone would listen to," and we have Ayin, whose dream we aren't privy to - he tells her, and she laughs it off.

I'm not making that up, by the way:

[Source: TeeQueue's LP.]

What we do know, however, is that... for most of his life really, he - as said - follows after Carmen. To the point that, in one particular flashback (during Day 48), she asks him, in advance, that "No matter what I may become, please finish what I started."

However, we can see from both Adam (the third of Ayin's fractured selves) stating point blank that the consequences of Carmen's Light would cause people to become abnormalities, and then in Library of Ruina seeing the direct result in reality... that the Distortion phenomena would begin because of her. Starting with one as big and destructive as the Pianist which destroyed most of an entire district, then the Reverberation Ensemble through the course of the game, and finally firsthand appearances in both Leviathan and Limbus Company.

Carmen truly does become the "beautiful voice" that everyone listens to; Leviathan goes as far as to have an entire conversation between her and a distorting Vergilius, in which we get to see what her perspective is, and... strap in, because this is why I explained what kind of place the City is in the first place.

Carmen, at her heart, wants the Children of the City to live for themselves. To be selfish, rather than living only for the sake of a City that does not care for them. To have their outside appearance resembles the self they keep inside. You can see, in the few times the reader/player is allowed to see what she's saying during a distortion, that she doesn't push people into distorting so much as she plays into their own pre-existing feelings and desires. Enabling them to feel that they are justified in everything that they feel.

The important thing to remember is that the root (ha) of Carmen's argument is not wrong. Remember: those born to the City are subject to the City, and exist only for the City. The City doesn't exist for the sake of the people, but only for itself. Therefore, the idea of someone suggesting "I want to make it so that you can be selfish, and live for yourselves" IS going to be incredibly tempting, and to many people. It's a subversive, inherently rebellious idea!

Even in the real world, we have countries that put a lot of stock into how well a country can function as a uniform system; Japan and China I know for certain put far more emphasis on the group than the individual, even now. Anyone coming from somewhere that doesn't may see this as a strange idea, but it IS a cultural mindset that exists in the present day, and it took certain movements ("egoism" for one, and Ango Sakaguchi's essay that is referenced in Bungo Stray Dogs is "Discourse on Decadence" for another) to get to the point we're at now.

The problem lies in the fact that the moment you start to only think of yourself, when you ignore everyone else you become a force of destruction, harming others, either on a small scale (only hurting those immediately around you) or a large scale (hurting many people as a result of your actions) without regret. You no longer care about the people you used to care about. The "self" is all that remains.

Carmen was/is a well-intentioned (by the City's standards) person, but who took her one good idea too far.

Judging by his reaction to Adam's revelations about the as-yet-unnamed Distortion Phenomena - and he DOES have a negative reaction to it, considering he answers Adam's religious fervour with Hokma's ability to "Face the past, build the future" and Binah's "Facing the fear, breaking the cycle," meaning that he saw Adam as wrong. I'd say it's a foregone conclusion that Ayin did not know that Carmen's idea meant what it did. Nor that it's likely that Carmen's idea was to distort people from the start.

This, then, leads to the fact that although we don't know Ayin's own wishes from way back at the start when they first met so clearly... we can at least say that he wanted at least some of the same as what she did; for people to lead happier, more fulfilling lives, which were not controlled fully by the City. He must have agreed with her on the fact that the City, in her terms, suffered from a "disease of the mind."

Their differences are where things get interesting, because in Leviathan it is stated that simply due to Ayin "joining [her] in the light" at all, the concept of also being able to form EGO instead of Distortion became a possibility. In fact, in that same chapter, Vergilius is shown to be suspicious of her brushing her "junior's" involvement off, in spite of Ayin being "involved in every cause and effect" (Vergilius' words, from the translation).

There is a certain irony, even, to Carmen causing rifts between the future Sephirot and Ayin when they first meet - saying things that could otherwise be playful teasing, yet in later context is, as stated above, rather dismissive-

Her telling Ayin "He's a bit pompous, so don't believe everything he says" about Daniel, and to Kali who, as stated above, asked why Ayin was glaring and was told "He just always has a serious look on his face." In another flashback, she wore him down until he could see no other option than what she gave him (about progressing the Cogito experiment); "What made me, us, so upset... was how much it hurt to listen to her put it so calmly, as if it were none of our business." As I pointed out earlier, she laughs at his dream, before carrying on.

And yet, because she entrusted the project to him, it's Ayin's fingerprints that are over all of Lobotomy Corporation, as well as how to activate EGO at all. "Face the Fear, Build the Future"? That's all Ayin. And yeah, he's hardly a saint; he still did everything that all of the flashbacks show us (and his present day self who is remembering/being shown). But the important thing is that people can be multifaceted, and half the point of Lobotomy Corporation, as I see it, is that people are capable of some truly horrendous things... but you are still capable of building from them and moving into the future if you want to try and be a better person.

That's literally the message that Ayin leaves people through the Light.

Which in turn, pushes us forward in to the later games, because the thing is, everything really does come back to those two.

In Ruina, the Sephirot - now the Patron Librarians - have to tiptoe around Angela, who only has negative feelings about Ayin due to him being the world's worst father by creating her and then refusing to look at her, and then sending her into an unending torture device. I can't fault her for being furious here. She has been given absolutely no reason to see him in a better light up to here, when she was created with the memories of someone who had fond memories of him.

However, that does mean that the Patron Librarians can't truly be said to be speaking their minds amongst themselves, and especially not with Roland. These are the people who came out of Lobotomy Corporation's loops changed for the better, and although you can still see their (metaphorical, psychological) scars, we can see through the things they say that "X" must have been talking back to them at various points, and specifically during and after their meltdowns.

I brought this up in another post, but here's Gebura in Ruina, stating "It's hard to take a step forward if there's no one around to give you honest advice," and that goes for both the Sephirot and also Angela. As they do point out, Angela never had that. Angela herself is very upset about it (which is an understatement).

I've theorised as well that the Patron Librarians would have talked more about Ayin at length, but they held off after Angela interrupted Malkuth.

After she says this, she's cut off, and Angela berates her. Given Angela is basically hearing what to her is her abuser being praised to high heavens by someone who was also harmed by him... it's no wonder she reacts like this, and given the way the Librarians are I wouldn't be surprised if they understood that - but it does mean that we don't see their true thoughts.

They'll talk around him, but rarely directly about him - and when they do, like Gebura above, she snaps at them. So we, the viewer, also do not get to see their full thoughts and feelings.

This isn't the end, however, since the endgame of Ruina throws a lot into perspective that is made rather blatantly clear in later materials such as Leviathan and Limbus Company: that is, the stances of Ayin versus Carmen, and expanding on how they're in opposition in a far clearer way than we had during Lobotomy Corporation.

Because Lobotomy Corporation's final days are full of unreliable narration and Ayin's other selves telling him how he felt (which... yeah, wasn't him saying how he felt), that wasn't as clear as it could have been.

Not anymore!

First of all, in order to get the full, true ending in Ruina, you have to have both Roland and Angela forgive each other and not keep that need for revenge. In other words, they have to face the past, and break the cycle. They've both gone through Realisations, with them venting out their feelings to the Librarians each time... much like how the Librarians themselves had to vent out their feelings to Ayin in order to cool off.

Once you've got that, Angela decides to sort out the Light, and gets one more Realisation/fight - this time something that Hokma had been warning her about. Interestingly, he's the only one who made her question where the ability to create Invitations and use the Library at all came from. He, while having faith in Ayin, makes her question her blind faith in Carmen. Because as it turns out, she has been leaning on the part of her that was built from Carmen quite a bit up to now.

This... doesn't last, now that she herself has The Knowing I.

Angela: As long as I'm part of this light, I'll do everything in my power to stop you.

Given how we know that Ayin's very presence in the light caused awakening EGO to be possible, it's not a stretch to assume that this is the same stance that Ayin has taken now that he knows what Carmen was actually after.

I'd like to add something that is implied by that statement that some might see as treading into headcanon territory here: that Ayin, after having dedicated his entire life, literally ten thousand years of loops, to following Carmen's goal, which entailed committing atrocity after atrocity both personal (putting his deceased friends into metal bodies and bringing them back time after time) and impersonal (the many, many canon deaths of the employees, and no matter how "S rank no death" run you try and make yours, a few Clerks will get themselves killed by something) - would feel horrendously betrayed by Carmen.

I do not see Ayin, when he sees her again after realising what she had been aiming for the entire time, greeting her as a friend.

There's an art I've seen someone do, of them meeting in the light, Carmen reaching out her hand, and Ayin refusing her for perhaps the first time, because he finally has the Will to Stand Up Straight, and the understanding that they're actually on opposing sides now. I strongly feel like that - or the vibe of it - is at least somewhat the intent with their characters.

This is backed up by how, when Angela has accomplished this, fought Carmen, finished what Ayin had been working toward herself (and most importantly, her own personal growth to get there), Ayin tells her "I'm sorry. And... good job."

So. That's Library of Ruina.

On to Limbus Company, and the Circles of Hell.

Because if anyone thinks that Ayin's influence stopped with Angela and the Library, they are dead wrong.

To start with, we have some purely meta things. The titles have the same initials, which makes them easy to confuse if you're used to just going "oh play LC-" because which one? Lobotomy, or Limbus? In the Project Moon interviews before the game was released, they would often refer to future games as "the sequel." First Ruina, and then Limbus. Limbus especially, given its initials, got called "LC2" at least once or twice.

So, Limbus Company is a direct sequel to Lobotomy Corporation, which deals with the aftermath of all the branches having shut down. Simple enough, right?

The next thing is the characters we meet.

So far, both Dante and each of the Sinners has something in common with Ayin. And almost every one of their respective enemies so far has something in common with Carmen.

Dante themself is the Manager. Instead of managing Abnormalities, they manage the Sinners, a group of twelve people who are brought down to the strength of the weakest among them because of Dante's ability to chain them all together- wait, that sounds... familiar?

"The person who learns to think about himself as Ayin will ascend to a spiritual world, where everything is the same and everything is equal."

[Source: Ayin and Yesh, in Hasidism, from Wikipedia.]

Oh, look who it is. Hello, Ayin. Or rather, the spiritual concept of Ayin.

Honestly, a LOT of things about Dante scream out to me as references to Ayin. As a person. If you wanna go look at all of them, my friend Kitty/ @strangefellows has a whole gdoc on it.

My own thoughts on it go from "If you change Dante's red uniform coat to a white lab coat and ignore their head, that is literally the same person and body language" to "Dante's inability to know what they're doing at first echoes how Ayin had no idea at the start of the loops, both of them suffering from memory loss," to "Dante, during the SEA event, sinks into the same sort of uncertainty that anything they say will make any difference that is so characteristic of Ayin's own silences," to "when exposed to a monolith, which induces distortion, Dante is said to remember more than they are capable of at the time and knows exactly what Peccatula are, which is something that Ayin would know intimately given his involvement," to "during the the time when Heathcliff is distorting, the screen flashes with a very specific image of Carmen lying in a field" - which should be familiar to anyone who's gone through Lobotomy Corporation since it's something that only Ayin remembers.

In short: there is a very high probability that we're going to see it confirmed at some point that Dante's past self (with memories) is actually Ayin himself. I personally do not see this contradicting any of the canon Limbus has given us, and it does in fact only build on it. You'll notice that when I talk about Ayin I use he/him, and Dante gets they/them - I personally love the idea that Dante's just gonna go "ooh, I get to play with more pronouns? Cool!" Collect 'em all, you funky tick-tock genderless dude.

(If you don't believe that, it's fine. I've only been listing off canon moments, however!)

Going back to "more than just Dante echoes Ayin, just as Ayin was similar to more than just the Keter," however, and... let's build on that.

Starting with Yi Sang.

Yi Sang is someone who was a researcher working alongside a small group of people, who created a technology that was meant to be a bright spot for pure enjoyment. However, a chain of events happened that had T-Corp's law enforcement coming down on them, forcing them to work for the Wings or scatter. He regains his ability to see that he still has a future, and that he can still attain "flight" (that is, his own ideal self) by working through his past and being proactive rather than simply letting it happen. A large part of his trauma lies in the League of Nine breaking up and him recognising his own loneliness, too, and as a result he can be later seen trying more than anyone else in the bus to stop the others from fighting and causing the irreparable rifts that torn his original friend group apart.

Yi Sang mirrors Ayin in that they are both researchers who were set apart from their friend groups, yet they both had a desire for friendship and to be closer to those people that they could not fulfil due to their own temperament.

Yi Sang also has the EGO "4th Match Flame" which...

If it weren't for the colour of his eyes, I'd outright call that Ayin.

Note that the Matchgirl's story is that of someone who burns themself out in order to gain a little more warmth, which fits both Yi Sang and Ayin.

Next we have Faust, who hasn't had her Canto yet, but we do know some things about her. She is very similar to Angela, in that she fills the role of "walking assistant and encyclopaedia" however as we see in MOTWE, she's also part of a collective, the Gesselschaft, and we do know that when she is disconnected from it she becomes a person who is keen on learning and investigating for herself, and Dante's attitude to her is very encouraging, even while they're having their own private panic/anxiety attacks over potentially being stuck in a 20k+ year dimension with (based on what we know from Canto 4) no certainty that they'll be able to forget. That isn't so much a direct Faust-Ayin comparison as it is a Faust-Angela and Dante-Ayin comparison, but it's still worth bringing up. I look forward to her Canto.

Next we have Don Quixote, whose entire Canto was about breaking free of her dreams and delusions to see how things truly were, but also - more importantly - it's about how one person with good intentions can try to push them onto other people, regardless of how much it hurts those around them. Of how, even if those dreams of a better world were good ones, because Sancho was never fully able to say "hey, maybe this is gonna not work?" they weren't held in check, so they do untold damage. How Dad Quixote sees what the other bloodfiends do to him as a form of "penance," with the sheer amount of time he is kept pinned to the wheel causing him to lose faith in his original hopes and dreams, not fighting back because he recognises that he is the one who caused them to lash out at him in the first place. Sancho-Don being the one to regain her dreams that had previously just been delusions, this time with her eyes open.

This one... barely even needs me to point out, really, but both Sancho and Dad Quixote are echoes of how Ayin and Carmen's best intentions could and did hurt many people, trapping them in Lobotomy Corporation headquarters/La Manchaland, and torturing themselves for their own inability to see the problems they'd cause. Sancho also ends up having locked her now amnesiac self in a very small room for roughly two hundred years, much like Ayin locking his amnesiac self in a small office for ten thousand years, with neither of them fully aware of the length of time that's actually passed. Both of them also are traumatised by witnessing a horrendous massacre of their home; Ayin by the Outskirts Lab, and Sancho/DQ by the sight of what La Manchaland became, and then by having to kill her remaining family.

Next on the list is Ryoshu, and... we honestly don't know much about her past or motivations since her Canto hasn't released yet and we haven't had as much focus on her yet. She so far (given my recent re-watch and read through of an LP) reminds me of Binah, since they both enjoy bloodshed and violence - and Binah herself tells A that she sees them as similar kinds of people, able to perform atrocities by looking the other way.

If we look at Ryoshu's source material, going into headcanon territory, we can see that the character she's base don had a child, who died horribly. One has to wonder how that's going to play out in Limbus. The idea of a parent and child storyline does make me think of Ayin's relationships with both Enoch and Lisa (both of whom died), and also with Angela, however.

Meursault currently doesn't have his Canto yet, but the similarities are plain and easy to see; they are both taciturn people who may seem blunt and/or harsh, and don't really... know how to people. Meursault is pointed at by many as being autistic, just as I've stated way up back in my description of Ayin that he seems to me. At the start of the story, Meursault doesn't seem attached to anyone, and merely does as he is told and not a thing more, yet by Canto 6, he is willing to activate his own EGO without having been told to, for the sake of the people he has grown to care about. Meursault is a lesson in "just because someone seems cold and aloof, does not mean they do not or are not capable of care."

Hong Lu's Canto is coming up in just a short while (it's in sight!) but he's honestly currently closer to having comparisons to Daniel, or rather, Chesed. Both of them are rich Nest boys. Chesed states that as Daniel he could have made it into even A Corp - that is, the Head - and he chose not to. They both have the same breezy yet confident way of talking (which, funnily enough, Dante and Ayin's ways of talking about Chesed and Hong Lu are very similar), too, and a similar trauma-based "I am past the point of caring" mindset, which others have talked about on Hong Lu's side at length on better than I could.

Heathcliff is someone who follows one woman, believes in her, and is the one who inherits her will after she dies. He also finds out that the one who he's been following and placing his faith in has turned her home into a laboratory, her body (dead or alive) is the power source, and she has looked into a mirror showing her countless alternate worlds full of might-have-beens that drove her mad from the revelation. He distorts from the grief and despair, is called back, and fights his evil alternate self at least three times before finally ending it all, with her deleting herself. He then re-engraves his weapon to state "REMEMBER" and in a later Intervallo is seen having taken on the role of assistant researcher.

....More than half of that could have been talking about Ayin. It is also within Heathcliff's "area" (T-Corp, more than just his canto) that we have the monolith introduced (which induces Dante to half-distort), as well as Heathcliff's own distortion (which causes distorted Lobotomy Corporation logos and Carmen's face to flash on the screen). This feels... relevant!

[Image: flickering, slightly distorted image of Carmen lying on the grassy field from after having played through 6-34. Her eyes are open and bright red. It is - other than the flickering - exactly the same as we see on LC1 Day 48.]

Also relevant is that so much of Heathcliff's entire Canto is about the consequences of miscommunication (much like many parts of the original Wuthering Heights). Because in Lobotomy Corporation, a lot of the Sephirot's problems were caused by the same thing. Either Ayin or them refusing or being unable to communicate effectively.

Ishmael's references are beautiful, in that hers is the second Canto where Dante is really getting into their stride as the Manager. I find hers to be so freaking important, because during SEA Dante is faced with Ishmael's mood regarding them heading into the Great Lake tearing the group apart, and when she snaps and tells them that she'll obey their orders but no more and no less from here on, Dante is... well.

The entire situation surrounding Ishmael's Canto goes deep into, first: how easy it must have been for someone like Ayin to fall into the rut of not wanting to say anything for fear of saying the wrong thing, because Dante almost falls into that, starting from SEA and even leading right up into Canto 5.

[Thanks to Kitty for the doc letting me just find stuff rather than go through the cutscenes through theatre!]

This is something that Dante is having to struggle with and overcome through the duration of the Canto - what does it mean when you want to fit in, but you feel that no one around you feels the same way? What to do when your best efforts to try and help only make things worse? Do you give up and stay silent, out of fear, or do you keep pushing forward while following your heart, hoping that this next time, you can help even at least somewhat?

And then there's how Ishmael during the entire Canto, but especially during the dungeon, has to overcome how she has been following in her Captain's footsteps to the point that she can't even see her own path anymore. It's only by listening to Dante (who refuses to sacrifice themself, and who also refuses to ever give up on her) that she's able to change her target at the last moment.

Canto 5 ends with Ishmael having recognised that she had become the mermaid to Ahab's Pallid Whale, following forever in her footsteps... until Dante reminded her of how she could choose her own path. Much like how Ayin and the crew of the Outskirts Lab followed Carmen's wishes and dreams no matter how awful her ideas to follow through on it were, with Ayin only able to break out at the very last moments, the last few days, where he recognised where she was going wrong.

Rodya is one of the two who didn't really get a full deep dive, and yet (especially with TKT) we do get a lot to read into of her. She wanted to be the cause of change, and yet in spite of joining a group that advocated for people having better lives, they... mostly sat in their chairs and talked about stuff rather than doing it, and seeing Sonya's people seeming to be doing things when she left a long time ago is part of why she's not doing so hot right now.

From my notes: Just like Rodion, Ayin tried to do something to change the world around him, only to (effectively) make things worse in the short term. Rodion killed the landlady, who had ties to the Middle; Ayin took over a wing, but that led to the collapse of both L Corps, the stigma of all L Corp citizens, and many people suffering.

Sinclair was originally just a normal Nest kid with well-to-do parents, who was led astray by a female classmate. He would be led further into the palm of her hand until she causes tragedy to strike, with the people Kromer had led into his home with his key having slaughtered his family. When he goes back to his home with the Sinners, he is finally able to face his past and his trauma, and become a more courageous person. Sinclair also has a male friend who tries to get him to follow the correct path back in school.

Personally, I find this easy to see as being the Carmen-Ayin-Benjamin effect, and we'll get back to that later.

Outis.... has not yet got her Canto, and given her military history it is almost certain that she was a participant in the Smoke War. In which case she would have known Ayin and/or Benjamin, no matter whether it's over the battlefield or in person. Given that she looks very similar to a character who should have known them, the latter seems more likely. She's also said some sus things on that.

I'm sure we'll get to know more about her as we go, but there was a moment during Canto 7 recently, where she's having a knee-jerk reaction to finding out that Don Quixote (read: Sancho) is actually a bloodfiend, and a lot of her objections are due to how many people Don Quixote must have killed. Partway through, it becomes clear that We Aren't Talking About Don Quixote Anymore, and Dante makes it clear that their support isn't just for one of them:

Outis "You don't know how many people she's killed by existing. will you embrace her still?" Dante <I will.>

Like, we don't know much about her for fact other than this so far (and she's started changing because of it since) but I feel like that assurance is going to come up for more than just Don Quixote and Outis. If nothing else, it's an extension of how in both Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina, countless people are sacrificed in the name of the "greater good" - or one person's quest for revenge, or their own desire - and each one of the people who spearheaded those projects (Ayin, Hokma, Roland, Angela) could have this same question turned on them only too easily.

Gregor is an outcast, created by G-Corp, who has Sephirot symbols on the fabric covering his arm, and who participated in the Smoke War (on the side of the old L-Corp, against Ayin and Hokma). While serving in the war, he was the figurehead of his group; however, he was just as much a pawn of the military as any of them... much like how Ayin sure seems to be the one in charge and someone for those he's in charge of to look up to... only for it to turn out that he's just as trapped as the other Sephirot, and he had just as many issues as those in the Outskirts lab.

So. The Sinners as a group are cohesively tied to extrapolating on plot points and the characterisation of either Ayin or someone Ayin knew on a very personal level. The other point being "they may even have known him during the Smoke War, give or take."

The Ayin Narrative continues. It isn't about "his story is over," it's about "how do we further explain who he was, and why he did the things that he did." Even if you don't believe that Dante themself is simply amnesiac clock-headed Ayin, these are immutable facts.

Which then takes us on to the other side of the Cantos: the Bad Guys. The Villains. Sometimes even just The Opposition, as there isn't always a clear Good vs. Evil here, and this time I'll be going more in chronological order.

Hermann is Gregor's mother, and she was the one who was the head scientist of the old G Corp, and the head of the current antagonist group in Limbus to the Sinners. She's the one who "trained" Gregor -and when he encounters her in his Fathoms of Ego, it's by way of the manicured hands coming down to crush them, which they cannot escape, to the point that Gregor realises that the only way out is to let her catch them. It's more metaphorical than we'd usually get, but - he truly does exist in the palm of her hand, wouldn't you say?

Rodya's enemy is, really, the Syndicates of the Backstreets, and the system itself - she tries to fight against it, only for it to come back and crush everything around her, leaving her alive. Which is much like the way the Head came down on the Outskirts lab, isn't it? That said,

Sonya, who she had fallen in with, also wanted to change the world... although unlike Carmen, he never (at least, while she knew him) was able to move forward with any of his plans, meaning that people continued to get crushed under the system while he waited for the right time. What is like Carmen, is that he wanted all of the good effects of activism without dirtying his hands himself (Sonya can't argue that he simply let Rodya do her thing, and Carmen outright left the hard work to Ayin when she knew she wouldn't have the heart to go through with it).

Kromer is a religious fanatic who sees humanity as at its purest form when there is only flesh, no prosthetics whatsoever, and will use absolute violence against "heretics." She also isolated Sinclair from the one who would have been a good influence on him, and she used whistling to call to him. She was very attached to Sinclair, and wanted to make him into her own image - as seen in the mirror Identity "The One Who Shall Grip - Sinclair."

Kromer is basically an entire reference to how in Library of Ruina, Roland calls Carmen a "cult leader." Both Kromer and Carmen wanted something that is an unrealistic standard (humans into monsters/humans without any accommodations for disabilities etc) and both have a younger male character under their proverbial wing, in the palm of her hand.

The "bad guys" in Canto IV are not so much a single person or "evil organisation" as they are the Wing and the System of T-Corp, the breaking down of the League of Nine Litterateurs, and then the former members of his friend group coming back, yet this time in opposition to him... just as the Outskirts lab would fold in on itself, before being sold out to the Head, and the Sephirot holding everything against Ayin while he was managing the abnormalities from his office in a time loop.

Ahab of Canto VI is, like with many others, the woman who is so charismatic that she pulls an entire group of people along with her, and although she tells herself that she's doing this for them, and that they're dying in "glory" they... really aren't, and she's driving them off the edge, pulling them along in fanaticism. Ishmael refers to Ahab as her own personal Pallid Whale, recreating Ishmael in her image of endless hatred and violence.

Although Carmen isn't as outright violent as Ahab, she's more... indirectly violent. She knows that the experiments are going to cause deaths, and she sets them up regardless. She draws people in, and stops Ayin from being able to discourage them if they aren't ready. She is the pallid whale to Ayin's mermaid, following after her and becoming just like her. It's only due to the Seed of Light project having his fingerprints at the end that saves him from basically becoming "Adam."

Cathy... is someone who has Carmen's "weak heart," who "dies" because she gains the notion that something has gone wrong (Enoch's death/Heathcliff's absence and misery), who orchestrates events behind the scenes by being the emotion-powered generator of the lab and entire building that she'd altered. Sound familiar? We even have similar imagery there, given we have "Cathy in the coffin" and "Carmen [as] the Bucket."

Canto VII has Don Quixote (no, not that one) and Bari, who aren't even villains, and the bloodfiends, who... okay, kinda are, but the bloodfiends are acting on instinct, having been starved for far too long. Bari is someone who encourages a person who suffers from ennui to have something to look forward to, day after day. She tells him that he suffers from a "sickness of loneliness." He then takes what she's said, and creates an unrealistic dream from it, without thinking of the consequences and without thinking of how to make it a realistic reality.

In other words, Don Quixote (no, still not that one) has a grand dream that causes far more pain than he ever intended, to the point that in both the main world we play in and the mirror universes, the bloodfiends of La Manchaland rise up against him, having been suffering because of good intentions. Just like how Carmen had a grand dream, and because of it caused both her immediate team and then after them untold numbers of people to suffer, and to die for it.

Don Quixote sent Sancho (yes, that one) out on a journey to prove to him that his hypothesis (that bloodfiends and humans can coexist, that Sancho can have a grand adventure and come back better for it) only for Sancho to utterly break as a result, since she couldn't hold all of that on her shoulders on her own... much like after Carmen told Ayin to carry on her work after she was gone, Ayin also utterly broke.

So - not only do we get to see all of these different refractions of Ayin, but we also get to see each one of them faced with a refraction of Carmen. A possibility, a different circumstance,

The end result is that Ayin and Carmen are the threads that keep the Project Moon stories tied together. It is outright impossible to remove either of them from the narrative in any way that matters.

And going back to the title of the entire post:

This from Walpurgisnacht. The dev team and scenario/scriptwriters are well aware of what they're doing. Telling the stories of people who are fucked up human beings who are capable of falling face-flat on the mud and then getting up no matter how long it takes, and breaking their cycles no matter if it's even at the very last moment they could.

And the story of a Manager who keeps on refusing to let their people walk the wrong path.

In the really short:

"So, it's all Ayin and Carmen?" "Always has been."

#project moon #lobotomy corporation #library of ruina #limbus company #prjmn stuff #ayin lobcorp #carmen lobcorp #this took me... way too long

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leonawriter · 5 months ago

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A few things about Carmen.

First of all, I'm biased because there are many things that imply she wasn't the greatest person even before she got Brain Vat-ed, but my entire Brand is "we have to look at things objectively and by looking at the facts in order to get a full and accurate picture of the way things are, not how we simply want them to be," so I'm going to do that. As best as I can.

Okay, so... what we know about her before she died is limited completely to other peoples' testimony, which is highly important because as we know from my other posts, Everyone Here Is An Unreliable Narrator.

That said, let's take a look at a few of those things.

I'd love to use images to prove I'm getting the dialogue straight from the game on every single line, but unfortunately Tumblr has an image limit of 30 per post! So. After a point, text only it is.

Starting from the past!

First, and the most recent (chronologically) yet objective of those takes on her, is Binah. Whose entire deal is to see things without getting caught up enough that you don't see the bigger picture, funnily enough!

Roland: Hang on, what? You mean the Carmen who recruited people for her quest to cure humanity? Binah: She strove to create a world without conflict. To elaborate, her idea of utopia was one in which people did not harm each other, and could mutually understand. She dreamed of a world where people could dream. Alas, she could never reach that ideal herself.

Now, this is interesting, because as said, Binah is someone who was never part of the team, who never followed Carmen, and the person she is interested in watching isn't Carmen - it's Ayin. He, after all, was the one who by the last loop could face his fear of her and confront her head on in her meltdown.

But she was also the one who was interacting with her the most over the past ten thousand years, unable to go mad from her dealings with the Bucket and Well. So there's this:

So. Yeah. Binah's had Carmen to talk with over that length of time.

We can see from this that Carmen's original goal was, in fact, to create a utopia where no one hurt each other and people could have their own dreams, rather than just the ones that the City gave to them (the need to survive).

However, that's not all we know about her.

Let's look at memories from those who actually interacted with her!

The problem here is that for the most part... that's reduced to one person: Ayin. And he's hardly reliable here! But... there are a few places where we can see others' perspectives, one way or another, and just because he's an unreliable narrator doesn't cause his opinions and memories from being useless for our needs here.

That's for the most part. We also have Angela and the Patron Librarians in Ruina to think of.

We know that she was someone who was warm and full of life, courtesy of Ayin, Angela, and Netzach:

Netzach: All I could think about was how brilliant and alive a person could be. She went on about how she'll change this world and its people. Whenever I saw Carmen brimming with joy and pride for her cause, I felt alive too.

We know that Carmen had fond memories of and warmth for Ayin:

Angela: Why did you have to model me after a person with fond memories of you?

And that she was excited to see people choose to work with her for her cause, and that she "wasn't the manipulative sort of person."

A(yin) [flashback]: Just ike everyone else, Michelle liked Carmen. That was not trickery or a show. She wasn't the manipulative sort of person who'd keep up such a facade, either.

She could understand that she had certain privileges, that others did not, but still wanted to help them:

Carmen: You know, I don't have any true contact with the lives of the people from the Backstreets, nor the pain they go through. From that I've always felt so ashamed of everything, even to be graced by a small ray of sunshine.

Gebura: But Carmen told me that she wouldn't give up on anyone, even people like us.

She was a workaholic who looked out for others:

A(yin): Th only problem was that Carmen was too wrapped up in taking care of others. She never had a moment to take good care of herself.

Carmen was the one who encouraged them to save Lisa and Enoch, from the Outskirts, and ensured that they'd be looked after:

Lisa: Besides, Carmen told us that we didn't have to worry about anything here, too. A(yin): Carmen personally asked her to bring the children here.

It was the trust between Carmen and the team that caused Daniel to choose Carmen's group over literally any other Wing:

Chesed: Manager, do you know why I chose to join your small company, instead of any other grander Wings? [...] It was because I liked how everyone here trusted Carmen.

All of which seems positive, right?

Except... the seeds (ha) of her becoming the sort of person who would shift "bring out the best potential in people" to "aren't you through with being nice? don't you want to be selfish and distort?" were there from the beginning.

In the very scene where Ayin is saying that Carmen isn't the manipulative sort of person, he also recounts that she had done this:

A(yin): If your beloved parents, or your precious friends try to coax you, are you confident that you'll be able to refuse them? A(yin, narrator: She wasn't able to say anything to my browbeating. Carmen broke the silence instead. Carmen: Don't be too harsh on her. She's amazing to be here at such a young age!

Maybe on its own, this would be a harmless action, but bear in mind: they are currently in or heading to a lab that is in the Outskirts for the sake of evading the eye of the Head. Ayin is watching out for Michelle by warning her of the very real danger she is putting herself into, if she isn't strong enough.

And Carmen brushes over his concerns, overrules him, and ignores the potential danger.

One could argue that this is a simple mistake, however it happens over and over again in the course of the flashbacks.

Over and over, she is able to be dismissive of others, not looking past what she sees in the moment, yet able to plan ahead, which is said to X right all the way back in Day 9:

Angela: [Alright, the letter ‘C’. Not a bad choice.] Persons who select C believe that the process is more important than the outcome. Therefore, they are good at planning ahead and enjoy change. They will be able to gain insight and attain inner growth without being confined by the rules.

"Okay, but how is she dismissive of others? We've only seen her support Michelle so far!" Right then.

Kali: By the way, who's the guy glaring at me? Carmen: Oh, that's A(yin). He just always has a serious look on his face.

Effectively, she dismisses Kali's concerns about Ayin not trusting her, but also makes a joke out of Ayin's own RBF (which most likely has its origin in a lethal mix of autism and depression, based on my own read of him).

Even if all Carmen intended was to break the ice, this is not conducive to communication. No one's concerns are alleviated. Kali may now potentially dismiss Ayin's expression as irrelevant.

Daniel's recruitment comes with a double-whammy.

A(yin), flashback: "He's a bit pompous, so don't believe everything he says," she said to me.

Which is bad enough, encouraging your junior who has been with you this long to dismiss the words of someone who is choosing to work with you. These two people will be working together, and there is a certain irony in how Daniel chose to join Carmen's team because they all trusted her...

...but these last two especially beg the question - did they all trust each other?

And here's the other side of the Whammy, which also comes in two parts:

A(yin): I asked how she was able to recruit such an elite. Carmen answered nonchalantly, as if I had asked about something trivial. "Don't you know that by now?"

And as to what "that" might be... here's this, from when Daniel had just arrived, asking how she knew he was coming:

Carmen: I told you. No matter how great you may be, you will always be in the palm of my hand.

...excuse me, what was that?

Because first off, we have a certain level of pride and arrogance, in how she "nonchalantly" answers about how she could recruit someone from the elite. To her, this is something she can just do with ease. She sees no great feat where others would have to struggle.

But then there's this phrase: No matter how great you may be, you will always be in the palm of my hand. This gave me an immediate sense of discomfort when I first saw this scene. Not to mention, it's used in far less benign ways later on; Angela to Chesed (who she has been forcing to do unsavoury things, resulting in death) and notably several major enemies in Limbus Company.

The good guys do not use phrases such as these which inhibit the freedom and agency of a person.

One has to wonder how Carmen could balance "I want people to not hurt each other and to dream their own dreams" with the way of thinking that would encourage such a phrase to become so very associated with her.

Moving on, and in spite of being safe from the Outskirts, Lisa and Enoch weren't actually happy, or safe themselves.

Enoch: Well... what if we said Carmen was our new mom, then? Lisa: No... This isn't the same at all... Let me go home, please...

More importantly... when Enoch asks "Please allow me to participate in the experiment"-

A(yin) [flashback]: Carmen spent many nights thinking about his earnest request. Then, finally, we... >Approved his participation.

Adults have a duty of care to children to NOT DO THIS.

Concerningly enough, there are implications that she may have known this would happen - she says in no uncertain terms to Ayin that:

Carmen: I have something I should confess. I actually have a much weaker heart than everyone thinks. I always say stuff like “count on me” and “just follow me” in front of everyone… But I’m never sure about the things I do. If anyone were harmed or put in trouble because of what I do… I would definitely be shaken and end up hating myself. I know that. That’s why I need to ask you for a favor. No matter what I may become, please finish what I started. We humans have weak hearts. One crack and it will easily crumble. I am no exception to this, but you… You’ll endure through it. There is only one way out, and it’ll never change. You know what I’m trying to say, right?

Basically? She more than implies that she knows perfectly well that if she caused someone to be hurt because of the path she takes to getting what she wants (her ideal world), she'll "crumble."

She approved Enoch going into the experiment knowing this about herself.

She also knew that she couldn't face her fears, so she placed all of the weight of that onto one person: Ayin. When realistically, no one human should have been given that kind of weight to carry all on their own. Based on our knowledge of what happens next, we know that Ayin, too, is no exception to the "humans have weak hearts" rule.

Then, we reach how she is after Enoch dies, once she's in her own unstable state:

Abel: I saw her eyes right after opening that door. Those eyes, soaked with red, as she had to endure cruel reality. She walked into your lab and started illustrating her hypothesis. Carefully, yet decidedly. You wanted to tell her it was preposterous, but like always, she had you persuaded. You had no choice but to admit it was the only way. What made me, us, so upset... Abel: Was how much it hurt to listen to her put it so calmly, as if it were none of our business. And how much we loathed ourselves for just having to tolerate it.

So, in essence, she had a very forceful personality, and she steamrollered all over Ayin's objections to her hypothesis, which can be theorised was the origin of the Seed of Light Scenario, and the very Script itself, as the devs have confirmed that she had a hand in it, to the point where she at least detailed out what the hiring practices should be (this is in one of the interviews).

She is very good at convincing people to think what she thinks is best, and to do what she wants them to do. Remember that phrase of hers? "You are always in the palm of my hand." Here, we see a direct example of that as Ayin was trying to fight back, but she put down his objections.

Possibly most important is that last line there - remember that this is implied to be almost certainly her discussing things that Ayin should do to continue her work after she is gone. We do not know the details, but if we look at even the bare minimum... he has to do some horrendous things, even without putting his friends/former coworkers in metal boxes. And here is Carmen, talking about the future, with Ayin knowing that it is in fact going to be him who has to do all of this. But does he get a say in this?

No. He does not. He simply "tolerates" her putting it "calmly, as if it were none of [his] business."

All in all, the overall picture so far of Carmen is of someone who... has grand dreams, high ideals, and who may not see the end as justifying the means, but appears to believe that cruelty has to be "endured" regardless, all of which makes her, quite simply, a very flawed human being.

What came next?

Well, we know that Carmen became the Bucket, dipping into the Well of the human subconscious, because of Binah. We know that she was still alive.

We know through Hokma that agents employed by Lobotomy Corporation's Headquarters had records made, and that any one of them could be brought back at Hokma's will.

We... also know that a fair number of Abnormalities have traits in common with her.

Of the most blatant, there's Bloodbath (the method of her death), and WhiteNight.

Bloodbath drags agents into it, and you get more Positive Enkephalin boxes for each agent in the bath (i.e, sacrificed to it). However, you don't get unique boxes, meaning that there are significant drawbacks (you lose agents, and you don't get gear).

This can effectively be another way of referring back to how Carmen's death only served to drag others down into depression and despair with her, and although they gained some things, there were significant drawbacks in that people died, and it wasn't even efficient.

WhiteNight starts off as the abnormality "Plague Doctor." Now, Plague Doctor is connected to Carmen in two ways - firstly, both she and the historical Plague Doctors wanted to cure an illness that plagued humanity, but there's also the fact that when fighting the others after the end, the Plague Doctor is the EGO that Angela, who was built based off of Carmen and spends most of the game emulating her, wears. Plague Doctors in history are also infamous for only having ineffective cures.

The supposedly Zayin Plague Doctor, after it has blessed twelve of the agents, however... will transform into WhiteNight, and immediately transform them into Apostles. The only ways for WhiteNight to be defeated are to completely kill WhiteNight itself, or to have the Twelfth Apostle do Confession work on One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds.

I've seen others suggest that this last apostle is Michelle, who told the Head about them, or it could be someone else. Personally, I like the idea that it was Michelle, but... I'm also partial to the idea that it's Ayin himself, given that even up to the duration of Ruina, we have the Librarians saying that they enjoyed being with Carmen, and Ayin was the first one of her followers to realise (during management, in ways they couldn't see) that perhaps they shouldn't be following her exactly to the letter and spirit anymore. So he's either that last one, or he's connected somehow to our good friend One Sin, who is there at the start of every single Facility.

This is due to Adam, who shares a lot in common with WhiteNight.

Adam: Abnormalities are the true humans of this age. They are the pure form that bursts out from the chrysalis that is our empty skin. They feared and tried to contain the Abnormalities. Do not place blame upon their ignorance. It is only natural for one to fear being naked in the face of the world. At least you and I know one thing. Carmen shall be our forbidden fruit for the new humanity.

Now, yes, we can't just take Adam's words as flat truth. But if we take how he speaks about Carmen, and the bad end you get from not being able to face him either through his questions or from failing his Core Suppression, we get something that's very similar to the fallout of the White Nights and Dark Days, but on a bigger scale.

People start distorting. It isn't called that yet, but as Adam sees it:

Adam: Everything that was suppressed, bursting out in every shape and figure possible. Does it not make you tremble in excitement?

Yeah, that's distortion.

Even if Carmen wasn't WhiteNight before, and Ayin wasn't the twelfth apostle or One Sin at the start, they certainly are now.

Which leads us to - what about now?

Perhaps in contrast to what she was like before, perhaps not, she now focuses far more on the "you should live for yourself, rather than for the sake of the City" than anything else.

"The children that underwent the experiment…" "It's too late. The way back is gone. That clear ignorance of the world made the children rather burdensome." The merry voice mercilessly strikes down my question.

This is an exchange between Vergilius and Carmen, from Leviathan. Note how he expresses concern for the children he had been trying to save, and she is dismissive of his concerns, and described as "mercilessly" striking down his question.

She then goes on to emphasise to him how none of the awful things that happened were "his fault."

She also says something that calls back to Adam's words, regarding humanity and distortion:

"…It's certainly not a normal form to take." "Normal… To them, they are normal while the world is the abnormal one. But more importantly, they have come to cherish themselves and see the world through their own eyes."

Emphasis mine.

It isn't only Vergilius she's being dismissive of while attempting to distort him, however.

"It is to become a self unbound by the eyes and standards of the City. However, the resulting form changes depending on the way it was revealed. …Thanks to my junior, who has a different idea than me, joining the Light." The word "junior" being insignificantly introduced and disregarded bothered me. It was spoken with a light and calm tone, but I feel as if it was involved in every cause and effect.

Emphasis mine again, because as Vergilius says, that's a very big thing to just brush aside as a "by the way"! Ayin's very presence in the Light itself, without him having to say anything or do anything outright, allows people to manifest EGO - and yet, Carmen's reaction to this is not pride. She simply states it as a fact.

She also refers to Ayin as only her "junior," and not as someone who finished the work she started.

"If what you say is true… Are you saying we shouldn't look at anything other than ourselves?" "…You ask the same question as my junior. We must struggle, but as human beings, we should use reason, not emotion…" The voice adjusted itself. "So, he said, we have to fight in the most human way possible, through clothing and tools, while holding the human form in high regard." "……" "But that only pollutes the results. You don't need moderation when revealing yourself. After all, if you go through something without properly reaching its conclusion and keep going in such a roundabout way, your wish will become diluted and be forgotten all over again."

This is also vastly important towards understanding both Ayin and Carmen's different stances on humanity and distortion vs. EGO; Carmen here outright says things that have Vergilius asking if she means people "shouldn't look at anything other than ourselves," and I do have to wonder what tone she was taking when she talks about him, because of the line "the voice adjusted itself" - what from? She clearly isn't proud. Was it annoyance? Irritation? Here is another person who, like Ayin, is opposing her ideas of how things should work, after all.

She sees both Ayin and Vergilius' takes as "polluting the results." That you can't take other people into consideration when focusing on your dreams, because your own wish will be forgotten along the way.

I've put this here rather than right back at the start, because it's plausible that the past years as the Bucket have changed her, and she is in the light and all that now. But... how much, really, do we know hasn't changed? Do we know if this isn't what she felt all the way back before she died?

Remember: Ayin argued against her ideas before she killed herself. We were not privy to that argument, however... we are privy to this one - where she refers to his ideas as, as stated, "polluting the results." Do we know that this is not what she said all the way back then? Simply putting it in nicer terms, so that he had no way to say that she wasn't right?

Either way, she's gone from someone who wanted people to be able to understand each other without causing harm, while at the same time most likely being unaware of how harmful she was being to those around her, to someone who is causing others to distort, and sees absolutely nothing wrong with this.

The way I see it, Roland wasn't wrong in his estimation to call her a cult leader. She gathered people around her - often vulnerable people, several of them young - and told those who were old enough to think for themselves and who were able to go to other places that they were "always in the palm of [her] hand." She was able to walk the Backstreets even before recruiting Kali, a Grade 2 Fixer who would later become a Colour. Each of the people who she recruited trusted her more than they really and truly knew each other... it certainly has a lot in common with a cult, even if wasn't, or even if that wasn't what she intended.

There's a reason why, in my opinion, some of the Limbus Company enemies that are associated with her are people such as Kromer, Ahab, and Dongbaek, who drew people to their cause in spite of It being all for the sake of their own selfish desires.

All in all... when I say that I am biased against her and that I don't like her, my views come from how she is a person who was responsible for a lot of harm, be it intentional or not, and she foisted her work and problems onto others when she knew she couldn't carry on with it.

That said, I think that she is amazingly well written, nuanced, and quite frankly terrifying as a person.

#project moon #lobotomy corporation #library of ruina #limbus company #lobcorp carmen #prjmn stuff

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leonawriter · 5 months ago

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On A(yin) and Unreliable Narration - or, "Did They Hate Him, Really?", the Story of a Depressed Man

One of those funny things about Lobotomy Corporation is that, just like many, many games out there... it puts you into the shoes of the protagonist. Almost literally, as it's designed to look like a player insert game.

But, see... it isn't.

The similarities are - at the start - that you seem not to have a name, you can't see what you look like, there's a character helping you and explaining the world, you're amnesiac, and you're suddenly given something big to do.

Those fall apart really quickly.

(Spoilers/references to endgame LobCorp, Ruina and Limbus as well in the post.)

Firstly, Angela tells the player their name. Or rather, that you are now called "X." She does not give you an option of which name to input, just as later on, Faust does not give the option to name "me" in Limbus Company and the player character is named "Dante." Both times, that decision is taken out of the player's hands.

From this moment forth, you are not playing "you," you are playing as a character that the developers have named, characterised, and already decided on. And this shows itself through all of the choices they take from then on, and the story they take you on.

Just focusing on "X," we don't often get to see what he's thinking and feeling himself. The very, very few times are usually either a multiple choice question, or right at the very end - and no matter what, he doesn't speak very much. He uses short sentences... from what we can see, at least.

This is on Day 5, but... you get the idea. X doesn't really say much more than this at a time.

But- wait. Look at that. Here's something interesting that I loved picking up when going through Persona 5-

The fact that each one of these comments is simply a sliding scale of the same thing.

You, as the player, literally cannot have X say to Angela here "I've been having a great time! Absolutely loving it, thanks." Because that... isn't how X feels.

The truth is that as of Day 5, X has only got memories of the past five days. His entire life has been one of managing a facility of death and fear, with everyone looking to him for guidance. No shit he's going to say that his life has been awful.

Which handily already gives him defined personality characteristics that do, actually, stick with him all the way through to the endgame.

This is someone who does not enjoy being in a position like this. He does not enjoy seeing wanton death and destruction. He does not like being in charge, and responsible for everything.

All of which neatly destroys the player's ability to insert themself into the Manager's role as themself, and take control. This is his company. You are playing the managerial equivalent of a first person shooter with your character on mute most of the time, but everyone else can (effectively) see and hear him as his own person.

Which leads on to the biggest thing:

How do the others interact with him? How do they see him? Does he say things that we don't hear? What are their opinions of him?

Now, the ones we get to see X through are really just the Sephirot, Carmen (to a degree, through memories) and Angela. There's the Keter, but they're a special case.

It's basically impossible to talk about "Manager X" without looking into his past as "A, the Founder of Lobotomy Corporation" - or, rather, as we find out on Day 50, "Ayin."

Because each of them are simply one part of a whole, really. And the simple fact is that the only reason I tend to differentiate them with calling the character from the start "X" and the one later on (from around the mid-point onward) "A" is that this way, we know which point in time we're talking about.

All of them are however, ultimately, all Ayin.

"It's all Ayin, all along?" "Always has been."

Now, the easy part is to say "the Sephirot hate Ayin!" and... to be honest, that's kinda true. They do not get along. Any of them- no, Hokma, we're not talking about you, you're an outlier and should not be counted for this. Sit your gay ass down.

Truth is, as Kali/Gebura said, after her suppression:

ID: "When we first reawakened in metal, we could feel the exact moment our final breath stopped, lodged into us like glass shards."

So, effectively, they're like angry ghosts full of resentment that have never been able to move on from that unfinished business. And, unfortunately, all of that unfinished business revolves around Ayin, the character we're playing as. No wonder they're all angry at him! and that's not even taking into consideration the issues they'd have had before they died!

So: Malkuth is mad because her resentment stems from desperately wanting Ayin's praise and attention as Elijah, to the point that she pushed herself further than she should have, did something he hadn't given the approval for (but Carmen did), and died horribly for it, with him not able to face something horrendously awful happening to someone he'd tried to say "don't do that" to.

All she can see, however, is how she had tried her hardest to be noticed and still got ignored. That's where her meltdown comes from.

Yesod's comes from, basically, seeing the aftermath of Elijah's (awful, awful) death and gaining a level of OCD over it. I don't use that term lightly here; he gains an overly stringent obsession over rules and regulations, and believes that something may have gotten onto his skin, leading to him self-harming himself in order to get this off (and it is not there). Ayin, not having any surety that this is all just in Gabriel's head, orders an invasive examination to ensure that nothing infectious is actually going on. Remember: this is the City. They are in a laboratory. This is very plausible.

However, there never was anything of the sort, and Gabriel is simply more traumatised than ever. Both of them simply have to live with that now, and Yesod's meltdown comes from trying to - as he had as Gabriel - push down his grief and despair until it simply exploded.

Hod was a teenager at most when she was working for the lab in its original form, a nervous girl who Ayin warned - quite harshly, even! - what she was getting into with them. Carmen says "Don't be too harsh on her. She's amazing to be here at such a young age!" and the issue gets waved over like that. By the time people have died because of the experiments and they're handling abnormalities, however, she reaches her breaking point and... effectively calls the cops on them by saying that they're doing things that are Wrong, and because of that, the entire lab gets destroyed. Ayin remembers reading about her having died in the newspaper, and "never wanted [her] to die in misery, like that nasty tabloid article gossiped."

What is implied is that Michelle lived long enough to know that she'd made a massive mistake. She likely knew that instead of just having the company shut down and the research stopped, the Head was calling Arbiters on them. Perhaps whoever she told went "thank you for the tip-off, we'll deal with it" and when she assumed there'd be no bloodshed, she was corrected in her mistake. Whichever way, she knew what would happen, and she committed suicide because if she'd not wanted to face the things that she'd left behind, she couldn't live with the consequences of what she'd done.

Hod's meltdown happens because she's full of regret and she cannot move forward past the desire to be someone who hadn't been so weak to do such a thing in the first place. She wants to see herself as better than she was - but without having faced what she needs to be improving from.

Tiphereth's regret is, quite simply, that she doesn't understand why Enoch chose to die. The fact that Tiphereth B keeps malfunctioning for the same reason that she could never understand Enoch - that he asks questions about the meaning of existence - makes this harder on her. As Lisa, she never liked Carmen, and wanted to live in the moment, enjoying life as it was without thinking about it too hard, really. Enoch died, and she took it out on Carmen. We never really see what Lisa thought of Ayin himself directly, which places any ideas of how she saw him into headcanon territory.

Without Enoch, and knowing that he keeps coming back and hoping for something better, she ends up asking some of the same questions - "what are we doing all of this for?" - during her meltdown.

Chesed's is a cycle that's very easy to see how it's repeated with Angela. Ayin is told straight off by Carmen “He’s a bit pompous, so don’t believe everything he says." (Direct quote). Daniel continues to work with them, all the way through everything... right up until Garion comes along and terrifies the hell out of him into releasing abnormalities onto the lab, killing almost everyone.

Chesed's effectively forced to relive this over and over again via Angela telling him to do things that'll get the employees killed, keeping him in line with threats. Of note is the fact that with Carmen, Garion, and Angela, all of them hold levels of power over him. The phrase "No matter how great you may be, you will always be in the palm of my hand" is a recurring theme for him, and no wonder, when his trauma is based in the feeling of being used to hurt others no matter what he feels about that.

The other part is that when he truly needed Ayin to listen to him, during the Head's destruction of the lab, Ayin shut the intercom on him.

Gebura's is easier to quantify, much like Tiphereth's; she wanted to protect people, and her final moments that were etched into her head in the robot box form were of her rage at not being able to do so, and just wanting to lash out.

Hokma... okay, I will include Hokma here, because Benjamin's big regrets and resentments are that he didn't stop Ayin when Ayin went too far. He didn't see the signs and red flags saying "this man is not okay!" because he desperately wanted him to be okay. Because of that, he ignored his misgivings until he couldn't take it any longer, and left.

Binah is... interesting! At first, nothing seems personal. Other than the eternal torture, y'know. But then she does state that she sees herself and Ayin to be similar - in that they are both the kind of people who will shove their entire conscience away and do the necessary evil regardless. She also sees Ayin as the weak kind of man who can't actually change anything.

I bring up all of that without any of the post-suppression personality changes specifically because there's still an easy way of... seeing Ayin as this awful person, because we see him mostly through the eyes of people who hate his guts, in their worst possible moments. Which is easily enough to make people playing the game have a bad first impression of him, and then even when they're going through the core suppressions and winning, it's like "yeah, but he did all those things!"

I mean, Ayin was bad enough that he caused his best friend to walk away from him! When the things said best friend can be seen saying his his suppression are really, really gay. Like, so gay. Makes him seem like he's trying to constantly say "I want to be married to you" gay.

Thing is, Gebura even said it up there, quite plainly: they're stuck in their traumas. Their resentment. Their worst possible feelings.

And as everyone should know, no one is their worst possible self all the time!

So, let's go back over this. This time, taking everything they're saying with a pinch of salt because they're biased unreliable narrators. All of them. And this time, not in order.

I'm going to start with Chesed, because I feel like he has the most impactful things to say about Ayin as a person, and he goes through what appears to be the biggest 180 in his stance on the Manager in the game.

In fact, let's take a look at a couple of Chesed's quotes before and after:

Chesed [before]: Geez, manager. Do I really have to remind you that [Agent] has gone mad for you to notice?

Chesed [after]: [Agent] seems to be dealing with a mental break. Give ‘em the care they need, manager.

The "entire team wiped out" lines are also along the same lines.

Welp, all my competent employees are dead now. How are you going to compensate me for all this? Geez, how’d you even become the manager in the first place? The whole department is dead. It’s all over.

Compare this to-

Don’t worry about it too hard, manager. I saw you tried your best.

Now. Remember what I said about "no one is on their worst day every single day, except these people who are stuck in their worst traumatic emotional points"?

We see with Chesed a big hint of how this guy felt in his worst moment... versus how he wants to feel, when they've made up.

Which is to say - Chesed goes from blaming the Manager, assuming that he's sleeping on the job and not paying attention at all, to trusting him and being sure he tried his best. Which is a BIG difference!

It also fits with the swap from "Qlipoth" to "Sephirot" in terms of the actual Tree of Life/Kabbalah, in that the Sephirot in the game are positioned upside down at first, and are acting opposite to the virtues and qualities of their points on the tree that they're named after. Chesed is distrustful because he's been abandoned, but once they've come to an understanding, he is the basis of A being able to believe in people again.

And what is that A brings up much, much later on in the game, that Chesed told him?

"That's not all, manager. Carmen trusted in you entirely until her moment of death. Everyone else who remained did too. Why do you think I decided to stick with you until the end? Just look around you now. Everyone gathered here just for you. And they’re waiting expectantly."

In other words - and this is why I started with Chesed - it wasn't just that everyone followed Carmen, but that they all trusted in and followed Ayin.

This is important. Very important.

Because Ayin, as stated, is a very unreliable narrator.

Not just because he forces himself to be amnesiac and only regain his memories bit by bit (as we see with the Memory Synchronisation), and again in Keter) but because any and all opinions coming from "Ayin" tend to come from the Keter. The Keter are all fragments of his fractured psyche, versions of him who had failed to suppress the cores of the Sephirot, and therefore were unable to find the realisations that coming to terms with them would bring.

Abel is only able (ha) to think about how he's failed them all, and how they're forgotten. He's repressing every emotion so that he can't feel anything. He doesn't think he can become better. He's just aimlessly living until he can die.

Abram leads a meaningless existence, having forgotten what he's even been doing any of it for. He doesn't have any courage left, because he's just languishing in guilt. He also believes that no one should have trusted him because all they were there for was Carmen and once she was gone everything fell apart because she wasn't there, and he could neither be trusted nor trust anyone.

Adam... looked into the Well and states that he believes that this is exactly what Carmen wanted. Considering that the Well is the human subconscious and Carmen is the Bucket that Binah talks about, I'd say this is an accurate assessment of the situation here... especially when all future instalments and materials go into detail on how Carmen is encouraging people to distort. That's... basically what Adam's following, here.

So - who was speaking during those flashbacks? I'd say it's plausible that it was Abel or Abram, or a mix of the two, with Adam showing up in how none of the dialogue from the A Team really shows A the Manager going "uh, maybe this is a bad idea?" - Adam is the fervent belief in Carmen to the exclusion of rational sense, taken to the logical outcome when one has been placed in the Time Loop.

Because of that I'd say it isn't just the Sephirot in machine forms being stuck in their worst moments - all we see from Ayin is filtered through his depression as someone who has lost everything and is just... moving forward regardless.

But- let's step back, while bearing that in mind. What was it Chesed said, again?

That everyone had trusted in Ayin. That they'd stuck around for him. Yes, they were all joined together to enact Carmen's will, but the fact was, if they didn't trust and believe in Ayin, they wouldn't have carried on together. And Chesed also states that as Daniel, he'd gone to their company because people trusted each other.

Elijah's problem was that she needed praise, to be told that she was doing well. To be told "good job" sometimes. The problem? That Ayin only realised that maybe he needed to do that far too late. But... she did want his attention. She looked up to him.

Michelle is seen being a nervous young girl, older than Lisa and Enoch but younger than any of the others - so, probably mid-teens at most. The main memories with regards to Ayin interacting with her? Him being harsh and stern... because he was concerned about her. The very fact that she did commit suicide after selling them out to the Head goes a long way to show how badly she felt for that, because she clearly cared about them all a lot. Headcanon territory, but I can see Michelle looking back and thinking "Ayin was right" - and knowing that he was trying to look out for her.

Gabriel, we don't even really see before things go wrong, at all, really. We see what his reaction is to Elijah's death. We see him covering up and hiding his emotions behind rules and regulations. But... we also see how Gabriel very easily brought up his ideas of how to prevent such accidents in future; he clearly felt comfortable enough to do so with Ayin at the time.

Giovanni... is one of those special cases who never trusted or liked Ayin and Ayin didn't really give him a reason to. He outright lied to Giovanni - because he wanted him to die happy, at least. But as A and Netzach they're able to talk things out; clearly, because, as Netzach says after the fact: "But for the first time, I think that maybe it was me who called you." It's also very strongly implied that Manager X/A by this point has a complete understanding of where Netzach is coming from, meaning that they're both on the same page about a lot of things. The very fact that Netzach is encouraging A with "I made it this far, what makes you think you can't?" adds a sense of camaraderie.

With Lisa and Enoch, we see that while Enoch suggested that they called Carmen their new mother, and while we don't see them outright say anything about Ayin... he's the one who's always there to bring them back home. Ayin is. And it isn't Ayin that Lisa's furious with in the flashback; that's Carmen. We don't see Lisa blame Ayin, which could be taken to mean that it never directly happened (as I'm sure Ayin would have remembered if it had).

I feel like it's telling that Lisa, the child who was more "easily frightened," says to the Manager, as Tiphereth, "But you're different, you're supposed to be different!" - as in... she trusts in him more than she's trusted in Carmen, or Angela, or any of the other "adult" figures in her life that we've seen.

As for Enoch... during Abram's questioning, we see Tiphereth say this: "One day, I realized that you were also looking towards somewhere with a clear vision, just like he did." In other words, Ayin was much the same as Enoch, waiting for something better, hoping that something good would happen. The line "Where did we want to go while holding a child's hand?" could even suggest that Ayin was there and present as Enoch died.

We've already covered Daniel up there, but yeah. That guy trusted in Ayin and stuck with him to the end. Someone who encourages Ayin to feel like he's capable of pushing on, because Daniel believes in Ayin's abilities.

We don't see many scenes with Ayin and Kali. Not after their first meeting, when she doesn't know or trust him yet and Carmen tells her that he "always glares like that," basically. But we do know that she literally fought to the death with an Arbiter just to keep him and Ben safe and alive. If she didn't think they were worth it, then I'm sure that she'd have given up by that point, or tried to stay alive herself.

Ben is- well- okay yeah, he extolls Ayin's virtues to the point that it's hardly a joke, especially come Ruina, to say that Ben/Hokma is a walking and talking "Have you heard of our lord and saviour Ayin?" - but I think... that's the thing? Ben is the main one who never needed Carmen. It was always Ayin he was there for. The only one on the team who looked up to Ayin as his senior, rather than her. Several of his statements also imply that he knew Ayin well before the project, as well, and he clearly got that admiration from somewhere, for some damn good reason, and not just because he's gay for Ayin. He was fully capable of walking away when he thought that a line had been irreversibly crossed. And the fact that he loves Ayin to the degree that he does is what brought him back, and enabled him to become Hokma at all.

Binah is a... special one. Because as Garion she never cared about him, and as Binah she still doesn't care about him. She does, in fact, hate his guts and have every reason to, because she was tortured. She saw him as the same as her - in a way that possibly filled him with shame, given how much he's shown to care about others!

However, Binah is shown both post-suppression and in the Keter questioning and also in Ruina to explain that what was going on with her was that she had a conscience. She was simply ignoring it. Pushing her feelings and fears aside, so that she didn't have to face the consequences of everything she did. In seeing Manager A (the player) move past her, she wants to see what he can do, because she isn't sure it's possible, and she... wants to see him accomplish his goal. Binah's outlook is very similar to the City in general, actually, since most people can't afford to pay attention to the voice in their heads that's saying "you should stop now, you're crossing a line you shouldn't. Someone's hurting, and that's bad."

This can also be seen in Ruina, where although the main protagonist and pov character is Roland - who, let's be fair, has a biased and bad opinion of Ayin because of him being the one who was in charge of the light, and also what Angela's said - we do get some glimpses every so often.

Malkuth is the first to bring him up - technically Roland himself,

Angela then interrupts the conversation, unable to bear hearing any of the Sephirot bring up Ayin in any sort of positive way, saying that "I wasn't the one using you. It was him; he used all of you just to satisfy himself" and calls Malkuth's attitude "nonsense."

Note the "still" here! The expectation that they would all willingly lay down their lives for this man who is already dead and gone, fighting to protect what he'd done.

In fact, Binah is the only one to side with Angela and even she is not doing it for Angela's sake, but the same reason she decided to stand with Ayin. As in - she decided that no matter what came of Ayin's decisions, she would watch the outcome. She decided that this was merely another consequence of that, so she wanted to see how it'd play out.

Netzach, here:

Outright namedrops his part of the Seed of Light.

Malkuth bringing up the company's tagline - although she's misquoting it, it sure is the one Ayin came up with - saying it's similar to history. (The video cut off her line, but I'd hazard that it's "you have to learn from the past.")

That's not the last we'll see of Angela and the Sephirot clashing.

The next major time is during the Briah meet-up.

Chesed "But, I don't wanna forget those memories [of the past]. Decided to embrace them instead. So did everyone else here." Gebura "He's right. I don't believe that I failed to protect anything. I could save the life of someone who inherited her will."

And not just that, but something I think of as one of the most important Ayin-related quotes of Ruina:

This is when they've talked to Angela, who's snapped herself away in a huff because she wasn't ready to hear what they had to say.

This, to me, says that no matter that all we see in the duration of the Core Suppressions is gameplay and text floating across the screen...

The Manager is talking.

The Manager, A(yin), talks to them, one on one (since all of the other Sephirot and also Angela are asleep during this time), in private, possibly on a private channel, so that they can vent and let things out... but also so that he can say exactly what he needs to say. What they need to hear at that time.

If anything, I'd say that the things Chesed and Gebura say up there is quite possibly them echoing back the things that A(yin) said to them. "You don't have to forget what you've done, as long as you can move forward." "You didn't fail to protect anything at all! Look at me, listen to my voice, I'm right here!"

Funnily enough - though perhaps predictably, since Hokma is Hokma and Binah never actually met Carmen - those two are the only ones who mostly talk about Ayin, not Carmen.

Hokma brings up that it was Ayin's path that he followed:

Note that he doesn't specify that the world Ayin saw was the same as the one Carmen talked about. It could be implied, but Hokma was pretty specific on not following Carmen.

And then there's Binah. With one of the most interesting outlooks on Ayin in the entire game, I think.

I find Binah fascinating. Binah watches. She observes. Up until the final moments of Ruina, with the exception of the fight for the remainder of the Light.

She wants to see what happens next. Whether that meant the direct consequences of what Ayin himself intended to have happen, or the knock-on effects of his decisions as someone who grew past his ability to look away from his conscience telling him that what he was doing was wrong, who could face himself and move forward in spite of the fear... it doesn't matter.

Binah respects the man Ayin became, because of this ability he grew to have, and she follows his will in a similar-yet-different way to Hokma - both of them following Ayin more than Carmen, and both of them wanting to see the world that he would create - which makes sense, since they're both of the same "layer."

And finally... we have Angela herself, and if I went through all of her journey from revering him to growing disillusioned with him to growing to understand him... I'd simply be rehashing all of the timeline of the games from pre-canon to the end of Ruina.

But-

Angela: Then, if I worked hard to have a kind heart... will he look back at me?

Benjamin: ...Probably. Eventually.

And... although it never happens in Lobotomy Corporation...

Angela hears a voice in the light, as she herself is managing it and ensuring that it works this time.

It's Ayin, throwing her entire opinion of him and his view of her into doubt with five words:

"...I'm sorry. And good job."

Lobotomy Corporation and Library of Ruina are both games of unreliable narrators. It only stands to reason that on this, too, there would be bias.

Ayin created Angela in one of the darkest times of his life, while he was still following Carmen's will with blind faith. He created her beautifully - and yet, she isn't a faithful recreation of Carmen. She never would have been, like Benjamin said. But not just because of her personality.

Her appearance is intended to look just as much like Ayin himself. Her hair has Benjamin's paleness, when both Carmen and Ayin had darker tones of brown or black. Ayin's eyes and posture. The ability to think for herself, feel emotions, care for others...

Ayin put a lot of himself into making her, just as Benjamin said, and as Binah states at one point. She's as much his daughter as anything (even if the comparison isn't a perfect 1:1 here due to the circumstances) and... the two "parents" who were involved in her creation? Benjamin didn't see her worth as coming from whether she'd been born human or machine. And as for Ayin...

Ayin created her knowing that he'd have to torture her. To quote the song Answers from FFXIV: "Tell us why, given Life, we are meant to die, helpless in our cries?" - he knew that he was creating her to suffer. He had already seen everyone he knew and loved die horribly, save for Benjamin (who would leave him shortly after). The Ayin of Day 50 says in one of the pop-up messages that he hopes no one has to die or suffer today.

Ayin, even before he built her, couldn't look at Elijah, forced Gabriel into pain and discomfort to be sure that he wasn't infectious, found out that Michelle had committed suicide while on the run from the Head, was the only survivor of the assault on the Outskirts lab, hearing Daniel and many others die painfully. He was able to steel himself to deal with creating Binah, but - he knew that simply seeing the aftermath of what she'd done to Enoch was enough to end Carmen's spark and kill her, so he had to know that if he gave a machine even part of Carmen's heart or mind, this would make said machine suffer.

I honestly don't think that Ayin hated Angela, or that he truly believed that "a machine should only act as a machine." Perhaps this is headcanon territory, but we hear and see him apologise to her, and tell her she's done a good job at a very specific moment - when she's free, and when she's chosen to do the right thing.

He knows at this moment that whatever she's doing, is purely by her own choice. She's outgrown being "just" a machine - so if that was what he truly felt, then wouldn't it stand to reason that he'd be upset or angry at her not staying true to it?

And yet, he doesn't. There's just the same awkward voice that doesn't really know how to people, saying only a few words, but the all-important ones she's wanted all this time.

To summarise a post that became way too long:

Ayin is someone that the games make it easy to dislike, due to the things he does - however, these things are normal in the City, and the major difference between him and the other Wings is that he was willing (as Hokma points out) to commit sins in order to work toward a better world, rather than be satisfied living in the one they were in.

We can see the kind of person that Ayin in through the eyes of the people who know him best, in what they say and don't say, and also what they choose to do, and how they choose to stick by him even long after he's "gone."

Much of what we know about Ayin comes from biased sources, not least himself, but especially Angela. But once you take what they give us and compare and contrast it all against what we see from the others, you can start to make a full, bigger picture of this one single person...

...which, honestly, fits rather well with the entire point of the Tree of Life being about how one is only able to see a person's (God's) true self via the emanations, or various different parts, all of which are named Sephirot.

#project moon #lobotomy corporation #library of ruina #lobcorp ayin #prjmn stuff #ough that was long

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