#the kind of bone deep knowledge and reflexes that builds is hard to replicate

[acceptsonlynttnightwing]

Edited

Yes and no Jason has emotions but its more fanon that rage affects his fighting. There is nothing that suggests Dick is faster or has more natural talent. Dick has more acrobatic talent Jason has the ability to learn skills at a high velocity. Still acrobatics doesn’t automatically equal fighting, a gymnast isn’t guaranteed to be able to beat up a track and field athlete. Same with quick learning, a person who is quickly able to pick up a fighting technique can still be beat by another fighter for a variety of reasons.

Jason also has displayed higher body reading skills than Dick in terms of reading body language during a fight. Jason was trained by Shiva and can read bodies like Cass but to a lesser degree. Jason can also apparently see into the future and past. Jason was a able to out strategize Dick and Bruce several times as a villain. Neither of whom was able to capture him (he let himself be taken in by the police) or figure out his plans before he executed them. Jason has been able to injure meta level threats without fancy equipment as well like the Talons.

Jason has self control and is able to use lethal weapons without killing people if he so chooses. He does things he believes are right  not because he can’t control himself. Any time Jason lost control of himself like BOTC the story framed it as him suffering a mental breakdown. Same as when Dick flies off the handle he is usually brainwashed or mentally compromised. 

The two characters have unique skills and have learned from friends and allies. Who is the better fighter is up to the author and what information they are pulling from and what they believe about each character’s skill levels. Even if one is better than the other it is always possible that the weaker one will still win for whatever reason. Nothing is set and stone and the characters are still growing. 

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I’ve received three different submissions about this, so I’ve added edits to address their points.

EDIT: Sorry, I went on about Brothers in blood - I hated everyone in it and got caught up in that. But fair enough, in the current continuity, it didn’t happen so I’ll stop referencing it. 

Dude, I’m serious, send it as an ask or I’m not replying.

1. Jason learns skills at a high velocity is a pretty irrelevant thing to say since every character has the usual montage. So do Dick and Tim and Bruce and Conner and so on. Jason’s never been said or shown to be an usually quick learner. Especially as he never really tackled difficult cases as Robin (nothing solo like Dick or Tim did at least).

[Edit: Bruce says Jason took to the training well in Death in the family - he told Dick that he [Dick] could teach him [Bruce] some things and called Dick a prodigy. Not the same thing. 

You said there weren’t any signs Dick was more naturally talented (which I disproved) and said Jason could ‘learn skills at a high velocity’.  I’m merely pointing out that all the robins can, so that doesn’t really strengthen Jason’s case. 

And UTRH didn’t say Dick and Jason ‘were the same in terms of skill, endurance, and wills to succeed’. It just said the biggest difference Bruce and Alfred noticed between Jason and Dick wasn’t skill, endurance or will, but that Jason had a mean streak - as in Jason had a giant mean streak. Sure, you could interpret it as Jason and Dick being equally skilled if you want, but given the context, it just sounded like Alfred was worried about some of Jason’s ideas].

2. I mean five different people have pointed out what they called Dick’s natural athleticism and fighting skills (Bruce, Tim, Roy, Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva) in all kinds of different reboots that I can recall off the top of my head while no one I know has said the same about Jason.

And even more people (Bruce, Wally, Selena, Barbara, Tim, Victor and Jace Fox) have specifically pointed out the Dick is faster than Bruce or that he is unusually fast for a human period. And given Dick’s fighting style has always been more reliant on dodging and flipping around, it makes sense for speed to be a speciality of his versus Jason (who’s shown to tank more blows and hit back instead of dodging).

So yes, I think there’s a lot of evidence to suggest Dick is faster and more naturally athletic / talented at fighting than Jason - remember Dick’s parents were world class athletes too AND he was trained from basically when he could walk and so has both nature and nurture on his side. 

3. I don’t think Jason’s emotions are more fanon than canon? Like, Jason was super unstable during UtRH, BftC and in Grant Morrison’s Batman and Robin. He was quite clearly making emotional decisions - trying to kill Tim and Damian and Dick, trying to unmask Dick and Damian AND not taking Dick’s hand (and the help he offered) and choosing to fall into the river instead. 

[EDIT:  Jason didn’t choose to go to jail quietly, not sure if we read the same comic? First, in BftC he chose to fall off a bridge into a river instead of taking Dick’s hand (a fight he lost, despite, as I mentioned, having every advantage) then in Batman and Robin: instance 1- Dick had Jason in a lock and slammed his head to the floor when Scarlet grabbed Damian and forced Dick to release Jason in exchange. Jason definitely lost that encounter; instance 2- Scarlet used Damian failing to rescue from Pig against Damian and knocked him out. Jason then shot Dick when he turned around to go after Damian; instance 3 - Dick and Damian saved Jason and Scarlet from Flamenco (who was sent by a cartel Jason pissed off) and Jason was taken into jail half beaten to death - he had no choice there. instance 4 - Jason gets transferred to regular prison and is broken out of jail by random mercenaries who want him to do something (I forgot what). Scarlet gets kidnapped and Dick and Damian have to help him find her. In the end Jason and Scarlet escape, with Jason saying he planted bombs through Gotham tha Dick and Damian must deactivate instead of chasing them. Dick lets them get away but makes no move to go after the supposed bombs (he knew Jason was bluffing), merely saying he’ll hopefully get better and return to the family (Jason’s shown really caring about Scarlet in this issue, suggesting he’s ready to reform).

So, yeah, Dick quite conclusively beat Jason the three times they met here. Nowhere here does Jason ‘outsmart Dick but go to jail quietly’. And he definitely doesn’t ‘get thrashed by Jason’. Lol, scarlet had more to do with beating Dick than Jason did.  ]

[Edit: Not only is Jason ridiculously emotiona in UTRH and BftC, he’s also stupidly so in Morrison - he wanted revenge against drug dealers so badly he killed a bunch of them, including Dick’s informant on a HUGE drug cartel spanning the Americas, screwing up Dick’s case AND getting Flamenco sent after him. And he was so busy being dramatic about his approach to crime solving he alienated the police AND was so busy taunting Dick, Flamenco nearly killed him and Scarlet (and would have if Dick and Damian hadn’t saved him). 

Like, man, actually read what happens in the comics. I remember it being really dark and hard to make out, but at least try before spouting outright lies online]

But you could argue that all of these are other characters’ issues. But even in his own books, both as Robin and in the Outlaws Jason unnecessarily goes solo multiple times and gets hurt because he’s too focused on revenge or payback or whatever and doesn’t properly pay attention to his surroundings. It’s a recurring theme.

4. I didn’t say it was the acrobatics alone that made Dick a better fighter - it’s a combination of that, his natural athleticism (that made mastering the physical skills Bruce taught him easy) AND how his acrobatic background influenced Dick’s style - he uses flips and spins to put a lot more force into his blows that a normal person could build up. Plus, he’s shown thinking ahead DURING fights, which Jason is rarely SHOWN doing (not saying he doesn’t, but there’s very little proof that he does).

Also, in most of their fights, Dick’s always holding back while, as you said, Jason’s kinda mad and seems to be genuinely trying to kill Dick. AND Dick STILL wins. 

EDIT: The ‘Jason was always holding back’ just seems to be him trying to save face, sry. 

Also, Dick’s shown holding up a 1000 pound statue, withstanding an orca bite a one handedly lifting a super obese woman, and hitting hard enough with his sticks + a flip that even superman can feel it so he’s pretty strong too. In addition to that, he’s faster and more agile too.

5. ‘Jason also has displayed higher body reading skills than Dick in terms of reading body language during a fight’ is completely untrue. Do you have any proof? 

If you’re referring to that one fight with Cass during the Mother arc in Grayson, that’s still not an accurate statement.

Jason just says he’s an assassin too (was trained by Lady Shiva a bit) and he knows she’s reading him, so all he has to do is surprise himself and that’ll surprise her. 

Which, IMO is super weird because no one else (Cass, Shiva, Dinah, etc) has ever been shown to do that in ANY continuity, but that’s a personal issue of mine. By that theory, Lady Shiva ought to lose to the Joker and Two Face. Cass reads body language - twitches of muscles and whatnot, so even if Jason was ‘surprising himself’ she should still be able to read what he’s going to do. Which is why its my personal hc that Cass wasn’t actually fighting him (which is even stated in the comic), but recognised that he was an assassin and giving him power would make him feel safer/ more comfortable. 

But back to the point, in the comic, Jason’s not reading her body language, he just recognised her fighting style and that it depends on her reading his moves. Plus, as you know, Cass wasn’t fighting back or trying to hurt Jason. 

[5 & Edit: Jason says he can read Cass reading him - as in he can read her fighting style and know she’s reading him. He can’t read her well enough to know (like Dick did) that she didn’t mean any harm and was holding back.

BECAUSE, as I pointed out, Jason’s never been shown to read body language.

Dick just says that Cass can’t predict the future and that he’ll eventually be able to surprise her. He doesn’t mention it as ‘a tactic for fighting Cass’ or anything of that sort.

Fair point about the joker, though, I forgot that time he knocked her out. But if you look closely, that worked because he managed to get a surprise shot in and knock her out - which Jason didn't. And even in that, once Cass comes back to it, she knocks the Joker out. I don’t think Jason’d have managed to kill her un-knocked out since she’s shown very easily breaking out of people’s holds and is faster than Jason and Dick]

It’s actually Dick, in his fight with Cass (where he gets his ass handed to him though lol) who reads her body language and says he can tell that she’s holding back her moves and making them non lethal. Plus, I recently fully read RHATO in case I could finally understand what some people seem to love about it, and Jason’s never mentioned to have body language reading skills (besides stuff like noticing someone’s nervous and very normal stuff that Tim and bruce notice all the time). 

Dick OTH is shown in his first meeting with bruce (in the continuity in which the Cass and Jason fight takes place) reading Bruce’s body language and concluding he was genuine at their first meeting. He then figures out that Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same person immediately upon meeting Batman (saying they have the same body language - something no one else except Cass ever mentions). Even before Bruce and Dick meet, Dick’s shown playing tag with other circus kids and that he always wins because he can predict what they’re going to do and which direction they’re going to run from their body language - even without any training!

So, conclussion, Dick is the best at reading body language in the Batam besides Cass.

6. ‘Jason was trained by Shiva and can read bodies like Cass but to a lesser degree. Jason can also apparently see into the future and past.’

I just explained why the former isn’t true. Jason trained under Shiva for like a month and learnt a couple of tricks. That’s it. He wasn’t ‘trained by Shiva’ anymore than Tim was. He doesn’t seem to have learnt to read bodies - or if he did, he’s never shown using it. Ever. Even when it could have REALLY helped save him. Which is why I don’t think he can read much more body language beyond what the other Bats (besides Cass and Dick) can.

EDIT - Jason managed to use one of Lady Shiva’s own tricks on her because she underestimate him. He NEVER outmatched her in skill.

Also, the students of hers he beat where basically like the LOA assassins - they’ve been training for years, but all the bats can take them out super easily. None of the students were very good /noteworthy.

As for his future/past thing, when was that? I don’t think I’ve ever seen him use that power in any of the RH issues I read? 

[Edit: Oh wow. You’re talking about the All-Caste stuff, right? How they can ‘see the past, present and future.’ Seriously. I thought I was actually missing something.

Jason’s never managed to see into the future or do anything useful with his power. It’s like how Kori undergoes the ritual and meets a god and whatnot, but it’s just completely irrelevant and useless to the plot. Or when Dick got bitten by vampires in the Grayson Annual (in main continuity sigh). Sometimes weird shit just happens and doesn’t count. I really don’t think 'seeing into the future’ counts as one of Jason’s abilities - not until he’s shown actually using it.]

7. Okay, you’re massively misrepresenting UtRH?? For one, Bruce and Dick didn’t know who it was because they thought the only person with said skills was dead. Because he had died. Not exactly a feat you can replicate. Even so, Bruce finally figured it out. Plus, Dick was there only for the first and surprise meeting - he returned to Bludhaven pretty soon - so Jason didn’t out-stratigise Dick, he out-strategised Bruce.

What Jason did do with Dick was lose a battle he picked, on the battlefield he picked and rigged AFTER spraying Dick with fear gas at the start. Then there’s also the multiple times Dick foiled his plans in Batman and Robin. 

[EDIT: ‘You could even argue Jason held his own against all the Batboys for several days in BftC before losing 1 fight.’

Wow, just wow. 

By ‘held his own’, you mean he managed not to get captured when the bats were going after major villains (all of whom got busted out of Arkham by the new Black Mask) and gangs that were attacking Gotham post Bruce’s death? that’s super impressive! He managed not to get captured when basically no one particularly cared about catching him (except maybe Tim)! 

Once he attacked Dick, Dick kept him talking and figured out his identity during their first meeting. Again, he shot Damian to distract Dick and get away. Right after, Tim found Jason’s hideout, Jason nearly killed him too (Jason thought he did kill Tim, but the Knight and Squire rescued Tim, but I’m sure Jason didn’t mean to shoot him in chest and leave him a cave rigged to blow, right?). 

Then Dick came after Jason and beat him (despite being, as previously mentioned, sprayed with fear gas and on Jason’s turf).

Or the time Ric-without-morals (while brainwashed and noted to be slower than Dick was) trashed the shit out of Jason, nearly killing him.

8. Jason has self control and is able to use lethal weapons without killing people if he so chooses.

I apologise if I wasn’t clear enough, I was joking about the having self control thing. What I meant is that Jason doesn’t have very good self control.

He constantly changes plans and gives into his emotions (very human thing to do, but not a great example of self control).

Also, being able to use guns without killing isn’t a great accomplishment?? It literally just means using rubber bullets and/or aiming away from vital body parts.  

Edit: Dude, I'm a member of the National Rifle association. I know my guns. All I meant was that having great aim’s not unusual for a vigilante. They’re all great with batarangs and Dick’s shown to be great with a gun too. Having good aim isn’t just a Jason thing. 

He does things he believes are right not because he can’t control himself.

So you’re telling me that he thought killing petty criminals (and cops) and hanging their bodies up in broad daylight was the right thing to do? Or that stealing his brother’s - a man who’d been nothing but kind and helpful to him - identity just to screw with him and make him out to be a murderer was the right thing to do?

Or, again, that killing petty criminals was right?? The kinds of people who stole or dealt drugs? Like, man, do you realise how many people would have to die if we did that? 

What gave Jason the right to decide that? How could he complain about Bruce’s high handedness and conviction he was always right and then go around deciding he himself had the right to kill people?

I’m not arguing about killing the Joker or Black Mask, but what about smaller crooks? It wasn’t even like he killed them on accident!

So either he couldn’t control himself or he’s kinda a shit person. Your choice. I prefer him not being able to control himself *shrug*

Any time Jason lost control of himself like BOTC the story framed it as him suffering a mental breakdown. 

Not really though? Sure, for BotC, but he loses control over himself quite a bit in his own stories too (with Essence, with Superman, choosing to lose his memories, every time he found out anything about Willis, with Lex Luthor, in Hush, the list goes on and on). 

And according to the N52, which is what you sourced most of Jason’s skills from, he was reckless even as robin and always had a bad temper.

Same as when Dick flies off the handle he is usually brainwashed or mentally compromised. 

Except that Dick rarely flies off the handle without LEGIT brainwashing or magic mental stuff even when horrible things happen. When Dick found out Batman had replaced him (in the mantle HE created), he swallowed his feelings and offered Jason his number and help. When his apartment was burned down (killing the people he lived with), he turned the criminals in to the police. When Haly’s burned down and a bunch of people died, AGAIN, he didn’t go crazy and kill people. When Donna died, he sulked in his apartment instead of going out and killing people.

So, yeah, different levels of self control. 

Which is exactly what I meant when I said Dick had more self control. He’s calmer, more collected and overall, is a more focused fighter. 

[Edit: I know Dick has depressive tendencies, but he usually pulls himself together AND, like I said, doesn’t hurt other innocent people]

Plus, he has way more experience given he started acrobatics at like ¾ and training with Bats at 8/9, unlike Jason, who’s earliest origin has him enter at 12/13. That’s experience Jason really doesn’t have much of an opportunity to beat.

[EDIT: I know all the bats have experience fighting lots of metas and gods, but I’m just pointing out that Dick and Bruce have the most by far. NOT saying Jason doesn’t have ANY, just that he has far less since he became robin at 12/13 and died at 14/15 and spent maybe two years in the Outlaws. Which adds up to around 6 years of experience including his training + however long since he’s been part of the bats again. There’s a difference between occasionally fighting metas and growing up fighting them - which Jason didn’t do since he wasn’t a part of the titans (besides 3 missions) and no young justice existed - which puts Dick, Tim and eventually Damian on a different level. Jason was Robin for like a 18 months after the usually six month training bootcamp. That’s nothing compared to the length of Dick’s.

However, given that Tim’s shown spending less time fighting and has admitted that he’s not as good as Dick and Jason physically, I’m skipping him. Also, he’s fought besides like four titans members and has never once been shown training or sparring with any of them (unlike Dick). Also, post crisis, ESPECIALLY in RHATO, Jason never learnt from Dick - in RHATO when Dick tried teaching Jason about stakeouts and being patient, he said he didn’t need advice from the previous Robin and yelled about Bruce choosing Jason and called Dick an arsehole. There’s the new Tom Taylor annual that retcons Dick and Jason spending time together occasionally, but RHATO says the exact opposite + everything else says Dick didn’t talk to Bruce from almost 18 months after he fired him, so he only interacted with Jason a couple of times before he died, so not sure how that fits in, plus tom Taylor writes way too many other people into the Nightwing solo.]

Plus, while people talk about Jason doing the whole training with experts around the world for a year / 18 months

[EDIT: it seriously cannot be longer than that, check the timeline. Originally: Jason’s resurrected around a year after dying, spends a year with the all caste, a month or so with Shiva and a few months with the League. after that we goes to Hong Kong for 6 months to make money and then back to Gotham. Tim’s been Robin for around 2, 2 and a half years at this point. In Lost days, he trained with 8 - 10 different teachers for a month each. Before which (UTRH) he was dead for around a year, catatonic for another another one lived on the streets of Gotham for a year before Talia found him (or some LOA guy) found him and then catatonic in the LOA for yet another year before being dumped in the pit. Tim has already been Robin for around 5 years in this version, which is really pushing it]

 they forget that Dick was trained by Bruce for 9/10 YEARS. Bruce, who distilled everything HE learned from travelling around the world and taught the most important parts of to Dick. And Dick trained under Shrike, the LOA’s best assassin for a couple of months, under Richard Dragon for a while, and with the various teen titans for years - Garth taught him how to hold his breath for way longer than a normal human, donna taught him stuff she learned from the amazons, and star fire from the warlords of okraa. Presumably, Dick learnt a lot about archery and a couple of new styles of martial arts from Roy too. And he spent his childhood fighting various, deadly villains over the years, giving him a lot more practical skill than RH. 

So, in conclusion, I think Jason believed what he was saying in the OP, but was fooling himself (I mean, Jason had genuinely tried to kill Dick previously whereas Dick was trying to help Jason in most of their previous fights, sooooo) and it’s this tendency towards overconfidence plus his emotional decisions AND lesser fighting skills that put Jason firmly below Dick and Bruce. At least bruce is old enough that Jason can probably eventually beat him, but I don’t think he’ll ever beat Dick - maybe a grown up Damian could?

While Dick was trying to get Jason to surrender and to manoeuvre him, Jason was so convinced of his own superior fighting skills that he didn’t even notice that he was faring much better in the fight than he should have been - and that Dick was therefore probably laying a trap. 

EDITS I Didn’t know where to put:

I’m sorry, but it feels like you’re both being purposely obtuse here long comment guy and numbered comment guy.  

‘Like you are the one making statements about Jason without backing it up or only using one instance over and over again. Meanwhile you have retcons that Jason was always holding back when he was originally fighting his family. Like just because you think Jason was trying to kill people doesn't mean that dude was 100% mentally or physically at those times.’

Dude, I used the four stories Jason actually fights with bats as proof as well as MULTIPLE instances from the two outlaw series. I’m sorry for assuming that Jason was trying to kill his family when he shoot Tim in the chest and dragged his bleeding from the chest body back to a bobby tapped cave so he die the same way Jason did. Or when he shot Damian in the chest to escape or planted landmines and tried collapsing a cave on Dick. or when he gloated at the thought of Dick dying when Bludhaven exploded.  

Or in UTRH when he tried blowing Bruce and the joker up.

It’s clearly all in my head. 

You’re the one using ONE elseworld retcon to argue that Jason was always holding back even when his own thoughts in panels say otherwise. Sure, he wasn’t ALWAYS trying to kill the bats when they fought - but he definitely tried in BftC, the end of UTRH, and in Batman and Robin. Let’s note the Bats were NEVER trying to kill him and were therefore always holding back. 

As for Jason doing well in the fight because GA and Batman got away from the League, that’s kinda sus - for one, they used gadgets, two Dick’s the vampire KING, which I think comes with some special powers, but fair enough, not proven so we can ignore that; three Jason pulled Bruce’s heart out of his chest and stomp-exploded Tim’s head. He’s clearly got super strength and since he was trying to recruit Jason, didn’t want to risk killing him by accident. 

And I’ve given multiple instances of Jason making emotional decisions based on overconfidence and anger - read the stories I referenced from the Outlaws instead of just ignoring things you don’t like. 

Also, what are your multiple instances of Jason beating Dick and Bruce? Jason beat Bruce ONCE by tasing him. That’s it. Even in UTRH, Jason’s final plan flopped. And Jason beat dick - the infamous gun versus escrima stick - and even that had more to do with the weaponry in question that their actual hand to hand combat skills. 

As for proof, you have none for Jason being an unusual quick learner than the other robins or for him being better at reading body language or for Jason out-strategising Dick and Bruce. 

Also, a lot of unpleasantness between Dick and Jason usually starts with Jason - Dick’s almost never the one to start the fight (which often gives him the advantages of surprise) and Jason STILL almost never wins. 

Also, both of you, I’m not saying Jason is a bad fighter - he’s one of the best human combatants. I’m just saying Dick is more than a bit better.

I hope you guys have fun with Fanon, but maybe work on your tone long comment guy? I mad sure to add to the best of my knowledge when I wasn’t sure about things, and yes, I was wrong a couple of times - but so were you, and you didn’t bother adding a caveat. For example, you don’t see me saying it’s on you for not reading every single Nightwing/robin/titans/batman comic before saying (falsely). that there was nothing suggesting Dick was faster or more naturally talented. 

That Annual is literally the dumbest Nightwing plot ever - it takes a special kind of stupid to sleep with someone while inviting them to your wedding and has never been mentioned by anyone ever - not even the characters involved. It was a shitty retcon to make DickBabs look like a childhood lovers kind of thing. 

Like how I’m sure you don’t consider it canon that Jason blew up Mia’s (Speedy) school just because she refused to become his sidekick (it was completely unnecessary, and Jason was no longer crazy at that point *shrugs*)

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Dude, everyone knows there’s all kinds of PIS and that DC’ll make whoever they want win. Please, Helena (I think) once said Dinah was as good a fighter as batman and there’re all kinds of stupid, OOC fights. 

I was arguing that, according to canon, Jason’s statement about always holding back and actually being better than Dick is just flat out wrong and it’s partly Jason’s overconfidence and succumbing to the emotion of the fight that makes Dick the better fighter. 

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EDIT: Man, Jason’s the kind of person who told Dick he was better than him when he’d only just become robin. His word’s worth very little. 

Like, dude, I know we can headcanon stuff, but when you argue with people about the general validity/believability of your headcanons, you need proof. And some proofs are better than others - for example, stuff that’s been repeated by multiple authors over multiple storylines. 

Like, I like the idea that Jason’s a huge Wonder Woman fan, but he’s never actually shown as one in canon. And there’s only two issues I remember that mention him liking Jane Austen or literature, but I headcanon that he’s a lot more into it than Dick despite there being four mentions of Dick’s affinity for Shakespeare - I think Dick memorised a lot of quotes the way I just happened too, but that they mean a lot more to Jason.

But if someone argued that Dick’s more into Shakespeare that Jason, or that Jason’s canonically shown more enthusiasm over Superman than wonder woman, I wouldn’t use my personal hc to argue against it because I have no proof. And if someone did do that, well, it’s not going to be a productive conversation.