#timestamp: around 01:09:00

[freakinator]

ZAM: "Here's what you don't understand about me flame..."

ZAM: "The only reason I'm still alive... is 'cause I'm in the right."

ZAM: "The universe favors me."

[deliciouskeys]

Holy fuck. @xieyaohuan and I are yappers. This is very much unplanned freestyle stream of consciousness conversation about Homelander and Homelander-adjacent things. No promises on the quality, but I thought the conversational flow was pretty good. Topics are timestamped (do not look at the total time, please).

And apologies for the laptop microphone (sounds like at least one of us is speaking out of a jar and no in silico dialogue enhancement could rescue it). I only have one good microphone and that would not work for a 2 way conversation -_-

00:00:00:00 We are recording a podcast, apparently

00:00:57:07 How we discovered The Boys

00:05:40:01 How we became obsessed with Homelander

00:13:28:20 Madelyn Stillwell

00:16:01:14 Nerfing of powers

00:16:57:03 How Xieyaohuan started writing fic

00:20:06:06 How Deliciouskeys started writing fic

00:27:48:15 Deliciouskeys’ previous fandoms compared to The Boys fandom

00:29:52:17 Xieyaohuan’s previous fandoms compared to the boys fandom

00:37:33:02 Reading incoming questions live

00:40:13:00 When did Butchlander click for us

00:47:47:12 Xieyaohuan’s ao3 name: Frenchcroatiansquid

00:50:36:00 “Fears” about season 5

00:56:46:01 Kripke’s idea for an ending (and puritanism)

01:00:14:24 Morality of The Boys as revealed by Termite scenes (yeah...)

01:03:40:02 Homelander getting depowered ending, supe culture wars

01:08:24:20 Homelander & Ryan

01:16:36:14 Billy Butcher’s ending

01:20:31:13 Mothers

01:23:46:27 How fandom has affected our real life

01:28:04:01 Sticking around until the end of a franchise

01:30:06:06 What's stalling Xieyaohuan's fic All God’s Children Took Their Toll

01:36:05:11 What's stalling Deliciouskeys' fic The Selfish Gene

01:43:16:17 Homelander’s behavior in the B6 lab

01:47:46:17 Maevelander

01:50:22:20 Homelander’s various parents

02:00:37:06 Back to Maeve

02:05:27:16 Starlander

02:07:48:07 Viclander

02:09:24:21 Sagelander

02:18:57:17 Soldier Boy x homelander

02:20:38:14 NOTP’s (if there are any)

02:26:16:18 Hughlander

02:27:27:12 Firelander

02:32:35:27 We attempt to come up with underutilized tropes in HL fics

02:36:52:27 Beccalander

02:41:20:06 Homelander x Todd

02:42:49:02 Would we be fans of Homelander within-universe?

02:44:49:14 Homelander-is-a-nerd fanon theory

02:47:34:18 Public vs private display in Homelander’s apartment

02:50:22:14 Kripke’s heavy hand with themes

02:51:29:13 Favorite scene of season 3 and 4

02:53:08:14 In conclusion, we are yappers about The Boys

[patopq]

Nott & jester supercut timestamps

TLDR: for my first c2 watch, i wrote down every timestamp of every nott-jester moment in the campaign and.. here they are

so, a friend told me we could split work, so now there ARE chances im ever doing this in video form at some point. in the meantime ill just leave them under the cut if anyone wants them at hand.

disclaimer: it WOULD be only timestamps but i left notes for myself so i could find these moments later. there's a mix of spanish and this is not really.. made to be understandable, its a guide for future me but i also find it hilarious.

there are also sam & laura moments

this genuinely helps me as a tool to look up what happens in what episode. its like.. uh when was that moment?? oh right around the time jester and nott send a letter to caleb's ex girlfriend.. i prob wrote that down XD

yes, you can find every nott & jes moment that has ever fucking happened and if theres something missing absolutely tell me so i can add it!! the video is not being made yet (at times i did have to think to myself.. ok maybe this moment isnt worth adding or it'll be TOO long)

TIMESTAMPS:

Ep1 0:37:52 are you guys staying here? "Dont move tiefling can only see movement" Ep1 55:43 look at all these friends we're making here Ep2 3:41:40 Ep2 4:01:13 "it was Ornna" Ep3 1:53:57 good cop / bad cop Ep4 3:54:57 "beau, let the detectives figure this out" Ep5 0:37:35 jester gives nott flowers Ep5 2:55:04 jester cura a nott "oh no nott 😔" Ep7 2:17:34 nott & jester HDYWTDT Ep9 0:36:22 "i was desanitising him" Ep10 0:40:07 nott borrows jesters ring NOTT moment Ep10 46:20-46:26 / 48:09-48:38 Ep11 0:48:21 laura sees sam's cask Ep12 2:22:38 trying to throw a grappling hook Ep12 3:15:20 "i save nott" Ep13 3:49:30 pumat reading tary's book Ep14 1:27:36 Jester's fartsEp16 1:24:35 nott & the rings Ep16 3:49:54 "make out with him" Ep16 3:52:30 "gee, i should take baths more often" Ep17 0:52:44 & 53:42 "ill bet agaisnt her" Ep17 1:38:13 "jester! should i shoot him?" Ep19 0:25:12 & 0:27:18 nott betting for jester Ep20 0:14:31 nott pukes whiskey Ep22 3:07:04 "maybe mermaids rescued you" Ep22 3:09:32 Ep23 1:17:08 "kiri do you want some human jerky" Ep24 0:13:25 jester gives nott a sparkler Ep24 1:01:10 but caleb. We want to dance with you Ep24 1:47:09 J&N macarena dance (drinking game) Ep26 2:36:43 'jester says im a great detective' Ep29 3:43:37-:42 & 44:08-:24 & 44:48 "case closed" Ep30 0:13:58 "case closed" (again) Ep30 0:27:38 "snuggle up for body warmth" Ep30 3:09:14 "afraid? Im not afraid of anything!" Ep31 18:56-21:39 sending a letter to the solstryce academy concerning Astrid Ep31 1:53:38-54:00 & 58:13 & 58:39 & 59:14 2:00:37 N&J sullying a temple Ep32 1:55:35-1:56:55 Nott meets Jester's mom Ep32 1:57:43 "she CAN heal, she's able to" Ep32 2:18:28 J&N draw the gentleman Ep36 0:30:11 "no, you go next" Ep36 0:35:02 J&N interrogan a un pirata Ep37 1:20:51 Laura y sam whispering uk'otoa Ep37 1:43:26-44:41 & 44:53 checking fjord's abs Ep38 0:28:13 nott trying to lie to jester about rubies Ep39 1:30:04-1:30:30 Nott on (fruit) drugs Ep39 2:34:21-36:34 & 38:01-39:02 & 39:58 & 42:04-42:37 J&N awesome shot, fluffernutter Ep39 3:29:11 Fluffernutter shot going off Ep41 0:21:14-26:11 J&N talk the kiss Ep41 2:07:34-48 & 08:30 descubren el potencial del pincel magico Ep42 2:44:32-42 "dont let go nott" "oh im letting go" Ep42 2:51:29-52:40 "are you saying.. that we made a mistake?" Ep44 1:02:33 "auto-tuna" nott moment Ep45 2:08:02 "are we being replaced?" Ep45 0:38:15-39:46 meeting twiggy & the flower in jester's hair Pt1 Ep45 4:33:57 "i think it worked" flower Pt2 Ep46 0:43:04 is he hitting on you Ep46 2:37:16- nott fears going to the water Ep47 1:32:45-33:15 "thanks mom" Ep47 1:57:18 "that's if there's ANY LEFT 🗣️" (money) Ep48 3:18:02 "no, there's people out there he knows, you dummy" Ep48 3:53:26- laura after seeing notts backstory Ep52 1:10:57-11:12 J&N & the minotaur Ep52 3:39:19 J&N ringing 2 bells Ep52 3:47:12-49:21 & 50:43-52:40 & 53:06-:49 J&N talk to that lady "we're a dinamyc duo" Ep54 0:55:07-:32 "so what's yer name, ey?" "Ohhh" Ep54 1:41:59-42:57 "we might need a man to take care of us, fjord" Ep57 1:20:01-21:54 & 23:16-:25 & 23:53-26:07 & 26:31-:44 & 26:50-27:02 & 29:15-30:00 & 33:24-:30 & 35:02-:23 nott reunites with yeza Ep57 3:01:47 "a bone?" Jester tattoos yeza & Nott Ep58 2:34:42-35:58 Ep58 2:37:37-39:24 calling luc (Veth's son) Ep58 2:40:58-41:43 "I LOVE YOU" Ep60 3:46:25 watching yasha, sleeping under leaves Ep61 0:55:51 thinking of a way to humiliate bodo

Ep61 1:03:25-:55 half the party dressed as Bodo and 2nd half as his lover, performing his poem Ep62 1:12:22-14:53 caleb finds out J&N sent a letter to the solstryce academy regarding Astrid 17:18 N&J regret doing the letter Ep63 0:47:11 CYCLE BROKEN Ep64 0:29:28-30:00 bcs you are shiny, blue and beautiful? Ep64 1:05:04 "im real drunk" "oh nott :(" Ep65 2:55:07 jester is rlly bad at sending messages Ep66 1:10:35 jester steals nott's flask (pay attention to laura and sam here) EP69 0:18:58 nott asks about her flask Ep70 2:31:29-32:11 deciding who's talking to the birght queen Ep71 57:50 my sam riegel is showing Ep71 2:23:08-:30 lauras reaction to nott possibly leaving the m9 Ep76 2:46:13-:50 & 47:16-:38 & 47:56-50:03 killing the innocent guard Ep77 2:25:30-26:56 updating yeza on details Ep77 2:28:56-29:18 yeza didnt understand the message Ep77 2:38:04-39:30 checking on ~~the gentleman~~ dad Ep80 0:20:06-:30 & 21:04 who stole the beacon Ep80 0:22:01-:53 J&N try to act normal Ep80 1:34:10-:25 (beau just discovered where the heart that obann is seeking is but jester had said it before) Ep81 1:01:07 jester throws nott into the abbys of doom Ep81 1:15:22-:34 "r u gonna throw me into the abbys (again)?" Ep81 3:26:41-:55 there have been attacks in hupperdook "thats where kiri is you guys" "was" Ep82 is jester in love with the traveler? Ep83 59:27 ask me a question only i would know Ep83 1:12:35 this is essentially a crime scene Ep84 2:56:47-47:00 jester wants to pull fjord aside Ep84 2:58:41 what do you think they're talking abt? Ep84 3:01:26 what do you think they're talking abt? Ep85 1:39:29-40:23 & 40:47 & 43:14-34 discussing if they want to go see the gentleman or not Ep85 3:19:27-20:08 & 20:40 nott and brave lawfirm got mail Ep86 3:59:28-:47 entering the weird ass obann cult, they took nott Ep90 0:25:36 thats what we do best, steal and solce mysteries Ep91 im trying to find my place in the world Ep91 1:21:45 howndis the lady that teansformed nott look like Ep91 1:39:41 what am i doing wrong you guys Ep92 2:43:02-47:27 Ep93 2:37:16 "we're listening to matt" Ep93 2:49:35 sneaking into the hag's hut Ep93 immidietaly after dealing with the hag Ep95 "i mean, how old are you?" Ep96 1:50:49 talking to eremis stone. ep96 3:18:00 "im asking you to open your heart to chaos :)" Ep97 1:40:58-41:35 Ep97 2:57:41 talking to lord dezrain thain Ep97 1:44:16-45:07 & 1:46:30 notts ritual to becoming veth :) Ep98 0:44:12 an advice for jester sendings Ep99 1:02:48 Ep100 0:26:58 no explanation needed Ep101 0:31:11 Ep101 2:14:40-16:08 Ep103 27:13 Ep104 1:46:19 talking to the trees in rumblecusp Ep106 51:30-:34 & 51:56 good use of control water Ep106 1:35:05 the traveler con people are arriving the island Ep106 1:43:17 "we have a probletunity" Ep107 26:34 brainstorming traveler con (oh god) Ep107 1:16:28 about dick-hunt Ep107 2:09:43-10:17 deciding if to go hubt the big or small Trex Ep108 44:47-45:03 whats going to happen at traveler con? Ep108 1:33:33 nott anouncing jessie at trav. con Ep108 3:15:44 "give it to her now!" (the great 108-115 depression. i prob binged so much i forgot i was making this. i had vacations ok) Ep115 49:47-51:48 asking abt dagen's love life Ep118 2:01:49 jester getting used to being 5 years older now Ep119 3:17:17-:24 Ep122 36:58-37:17 & 37:33 Ep123 2:48:29 veth find out about fjorester Ep123 3:09:23 veth gives jester a lil something Ep126 31:31 Ep129 1:17:17-19:10 & 19:34 heavily considering a detective agency Ep131 3:14:07 jesters death wishes Ep133 2:56:40 deadnaming veth Ep134 1:07:56 "i wish i had jester here" Ep134 2:33:30 beau is great tho Ep135 2:27:05 saying goodbye to the aeormaton Ep139 40:01 but you've stolen from me.. Ep140 4:38:57 wanna paint a big dick? Ep141 47:54 sending a message to yeza as veth Ep141 3:46:09 jester, you're the painter Ep141 4:15:21 veth, the one with the giant tots Ep141 4:34:32 detective agency Ep141 5:14:35 tattoo req

shortcuts or stuff:

N&J = nott & jester This is unrelevant to you as a viewer but in case you were wondering what the signs meant, they are a guide for me: [ _:_ - _:_ ] means: 'starts in _ and ends in _' [ _:_ & _:_ ] means: 'starts in _, then it starts pt2 with a gap between those 2 clips' (but its all the same scene. im just skipping unrelevant moments) if there's no "_:_ - _:_" then its bcs i trust future me to have the same train of thought as i did when i wrote down the timestamp, thats why i end up not writing down the "when to finish the clip"; future me will know what to do

[idlingintheimpalapodcast]

“Words have power.” Minority and Cultural Representation in FanFiction

Sandra and Kasey welcomed authors and friends to dig deeper into fanfiction on this episode. The topic is minority and cultural representation (or the lack thereof) in fanfics, focusing on Reader Insert and Original Characters.

Alex, known as @zepskies, is a reader-insert and OFC writer who has penned many stories centered around characters brought to life by one Jensen Ackles. She’s imbued her reader inserts and ofc’s with diverse traits and characteristics that have reflected her Latin heritage and explored other cultures outside her frame of reference.

Sandra sent an ask out in Idling’s Discord server to talk to authors from various cultures about this topic. One member, Laila (known as @rubyvhs on tumblr), was keen to come on for the chat. Unfortunately, exams got in the way of her joining. But she kindly took time out and answered some questions sent over in advance.

Many thanks to these talented authors for sharing their insight and lived experiences!

Listen on Spotify Watch on Youtube:

Chapter Timestamps 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:24 - Cultural Diversity in FanFic 00:03:01 - Alex has been on the podcast before 00:03:23 - Laila’s intro to SPN and fanfiction 00:04:23 - The age at which one starts writing fanfic 00:06:18 - Alex’s cultural background and formative years 00:10:53 - Food and culture 00:12:15 - Laila’s cultural background 00:13:06 - The American Dream? 00:17:00 - Fanfic Alex reads 00:19:52 - When less is more in fic writing 00:25:10 - Fanfic Laila reads 00:25:54 - When Alex discovered cultural representation in fanfic 00:28:21 - How much of an identity do you give a reader-insert character? 00:31:27 - Did Laila search for her cultural heritage in fanfic? 00:32:58 - Diversity in media 00:36:36 - Deciding to give a reader-insert character diverse cultural traits 00:38:47 - Missing out on the opportunity of Cassie on the show 00:40:09 - Challenges encountered creating layered and diverse characters 00:45:28 - Alex is challenging herself with a new interracial pairing 00:51:29 - Fear of sharing a part of your culture in fanfiction? 00:58:41 - Laila incorporated her cultural identity into fanfic 01:02:58 - Writing limitations on a posting schedule 01:05:34 - Breaking out of an ingrained bias 01:08:03 - Plus-sized reader-insert 01:12:50 - Has Laila dealt with ingrained bias? 01:13:20 - Writing about a culture outside of your frame of reference 01:16:32 - Writing an ethnic character outside of your own needs to be done responsibly and with care 01:18:33 - Making it realistic and entertaining 01:27:03 - Cowboy Dean, Come On! 01:28:40 - The response Alex received for writing a fanfic around Native American culture 01:31:58 - Laila’s cultural creations 01:32:42 - Laila’s advice for writing about cultures outside of your own 01:34:04 - Sensitivity readers and finding a beta for cultural questions 01:40:34 - Final advice from Alex 01:45:22 - Final thoughts and outro

[the-conversation-pod]

Finally, Some Good Fucking Food: The Marahuyo Project and Ossan no Pantsu Episode

AND WE'RE BACK!

After a longer break than we expected, we are finally back to catch up on some shows we really enjoyed this season. Come join us for a Bangers Only episode as we take a break from BL and explore the queer truth found in JP Habac and ANIMA Studios' (Gaya sa Pelikula) Marahuyo Project and Ossan no Pants ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka! aka Don't Care For an Old Man's Underwear!

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome

00:01:15 - Introduction

00:08:40 - Marahuyo Project: A Queer Activist's Story

00:20:24 - Marahuyo Project: On Queerness

00:30:16 - Marahuyo Project: Our Characters

00:42:09 - Marahuyo Project: The Christina Story

00:48:52 - Marahuyo Project: Parents and Children

00:54:54 - Marahuyo Project: Final Thoughts and Ratings

00:59:48 - Ossan no Pants

01:05:18 - Ossan no Pants: Our Characters

01:26:30 - Ossan no Pants: Key Character Arcs

01:36:49 - Ossan no Pants: Furuike and That Fucking Guy

01:45:25 Ossan no Pants: Final Thoughts and Ratings

01:51:18 - Importance of Variety in Media Consumption

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction

Ben 

And we're back. This week we're going to be taking a little bit of a break from BL and doing a special class pre-award season discussion of two shows we loved so much that it restored my faith in television as a genre. We're going to be discussing Marahuyo Project from ANIMA Studios and we're going to be discussing Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear! The Japanese name is Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka! 

Before we get into this, we're gonna do a little bit of a breakdown on our special class awards and why we often will pull them aside from our BL discussion. NiNi, would you like to offer some insight for us?

NiNi 

Sure, Ben, but first, we've got a guest. Say hi, Shan. [laughs]

Shan 

Ben just forgot that I'm a guest at this point. 

Ben 

It’s true. Shan's still here! She has not left the booth. [laughs]

Shan 

I just stay here permanently now. I have squatted in the booth. Hi people, it's Shan.

NiNi 

Always good to have you around, Shan. 

So, so we are talking a little bit outside of the BL genre this week. We are talking about our special class type programs. We have several categories of special class in our VIIB awards, but the one that we're talking about here is standout queer narrative. Those queer stories that are not technically romances, or at least go beyond the romance genre to reveal and get into some kind of queer truth that maybe romance is not best placed to delve into.

Ben 

Since Shan is here and she has watched so many dramas, [laughs] Shan, why don't you walk us through some of the things that distinguish broader sort of family- and community-oriented dramas versus, like, romcoms and romantic dramas.

Shan 

I think what makes a show a family drama, versus a romance drama that has family elements, is really what drives the story, what the focus and locust of the story is. In a romance, in a BL or a GL, a QL in general, the primary driver of the plot is a romantic relationship. In a family drama, what drives the plot is more about the relationships of a family unit. Or a drama that's more about community, like something like a Moonlight Chicken, you get community and the relationships between different community members, friendships and neighbors and things like that, being the driving force of the plot.

So when you're talking about categorization, that's really the difference. It's not that a family drama or a community-based drama cannot include romances. They very often or even usually do. It's just about really what drives the story. And in both of the dramas that we're talking about today, what drives the story is relationships that are more familial in nature or more friendship-oriented or more about how a community of people comes together.

Ben 

Something else that I think is notable in different styles of drama is what role the supporting cast has. NiNi, you've been probably the biggest fan of side characters and their roles in all the various QL we've watched. I’d like you to maybe talk a little bit about the role you feel for side characters in romance versus side characters in dramas.

NiNi 

When it comes to side characters in a romance, these people are usually the friends and family of the main couple. And they're usually deeply integrated into how these two people are coming together. Sometimes they have their own stories happening alongside that are sort of echoing the themes or maybe even opposing the themes in some really interesting ways. That's what I'm looking for when I'm thinking about side characters in a romance story. 

When you’re going outward to like family or community and talking about those stories, what you're looking for, for me anyway, is an expansion of the world. I want to know everything about this universe when I'm getting into a family drama, a community drama, a workplace drama. I want it to expand. I am a romance girl, so I like when a romantic drama focuses on the couple, and yes, you get some expansion of the world in that and an understanding of the world around them. But the couple's really the focus. I think in these wider dramas, I like understanding how these people's world operates and how they are all connected to each other inside of that world.

Ben 

I like the way you broke that down. In BL in particular, the friends are always built around their support for the core couple. Even in our award season, we award a Best Boy and Best Girl award each year. And that usually goes to one of the standout friends that supported our romantic leads. But in drama like this, I'm interested, like she said, in expanding the world, like what perils and challenges are the side characters facing that help add flavor to the core themes that we're exploring here? 

So with the two shows are gonna be talking about today, Marahuyo Project is about a young man who's a very out queer activist in his school in Manila, and after being expelled from the school is sent to a very rural town and there decides to create an LGBT club. Sorry, he uses the full acronym. LGBTQIA+ community while he's there. In our other show, Oppan for short, we're dealing with a middle-aged man kind of a grognard stuck in his way who, after a surprise encounter with a young gay man decides it's time for him to update himself and rebuild his relationship with his family and his co-workers. And it's a show fundamentally about personal growth. 

So those themes don't necessarily prioritize romance in them. And we'll get into that more as we focus on those shows. The last thing I wanna highlight before we talk about these shows, ‘cause we've been talking about it a lot, particularly with last season's complex disappointments for us, neither of these shows is in the bubble. These shows exist in a world very reminiscent of our own, and homophobia and the expectations of society at large and how queer people should conform are very much present themes in these stories.

And with that, NiNi, take us in!

NiNi 

Why is NiNi always taking us in? NiNi never knows what's happening here. [laughs]

00:08:40 - Marahuyo Project: A Queer Activist's Story

NiNi

So first up we're going to talk about the Marahuyo Project from the Philippines. Ben, what is Marahuyo Project about?

Ben 

About how that thankfully ANIMA Studios is not dead and Gaya sa Pelikula is not the last thing we're gonna see from them. JP Habac is still out there, friends, and he's still making stuff. 

Marahuyo Project is a kind of, like, a romance drama, sorta, about a young man named King. He is a queer activist at his school in Manila and he does not like the dean of his school. He ends up fussing with her and to piss her off, he ends up making out with his friend in front of her. She tries to separate them and he throws her to the ground accidentally, gets expelled for laying hands on her. And so he is sent away to the town of Marahuyo, a town very far from Manila, and he has to figure out how to exist in this community that doesn't have very much of an out queer network here. He decides to build an LGBTQIA+ organization on campus. And as with everything with these sort of stories, as soon as one person starts coming out, other people start coming out quite loudly in response, or not so loudly in other ways. This show is really fascinating because they insisted on using the entire LGBTQIA+ acronym, and they were intentional about that. 

Adrian Lindayag played King in this and he was also in The Boy Foretold by the Stars, which I forced Shan to watch. And she did not like it!

Shan 

You sure did. Forced is the right word. 

Ben

And she did not like it!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

I did not like it! But I loved Adrian. I was so excited to see him get another show, and a frankly much better written show. [laughs]

Ben 

And his friend who he kisses in the first episode is played by Tommy Alejandrino, who was the lead in The Day I Loved You, a show that I really loved. And I thought it was really special and kind of interesting that this show led in its very first episode with a kiss between two boys whose actors had played kind of femme-y characters before this. That felt really intentional.

I actually want to start with you, NiNi, because you grew up in an island community. I actually want your perspective on King being moved from the metro of Manila to an island that doesn't really have a stable power grid for all day power, and how you feel about him going from an urban center to a rural town.

NiNi 

It's so funny. I grew up in Trinidad and the southern Caribbean. Trinidad is considered a quote-unquote rich country and I grew up in the city. But I have friends who grew up in the country. My own family is from the country. My aunt used to tell stories, leaving town and going down to the country to spend time with her father's family, with her grandmother, sometimes with her cousins, and my friends now tell stories about that kind of stuff, as well. There's even a joke sometimes that if you got into trouble in town they would send you down south which is more rural. Or they would send you to live with your grandmother in Manzanilla, which is another rural area. So, there's some elements of that to the stories that I knew about the way that people grow up. And so there's a lot about Marahuyo that reminded me, not just of parts of Trinidad, but of other parts of the Caribbean that I'm familiar with and people that I know and that I'm friends with, have grown up in. 

So the whole thing about getting sent to country, it was so familiar in a lot of ways. That whole thing about not having power, or having these village politics kind of mentality about a lotta things. And ways that people can surprise you as well, because you have certain expectations of people who come from those kinds of communities and that kind of background and those kinds of situations where, you know, oh, you don't have lights, what do you know about anything? People make assumptions about people being backward or whatever, and actually no, that's not how it is. So this had a hint of familiarity to it in terms of the story. 

Also, I was glad to see it because so many Filipino stories are set in metro Manila or are set in the pretty tourist parts, not places like Marahuyo. I really enjoyed seeing that aspect of life in the Philippines. It felt very homey to me in a lot of ways. But this is one of the things that I enjoy about Filipino drama and about Filipino BL. A lot of these BLs are coming from countries that do feel familiar to me, but Filipino BL in particular has that ring of familiarity to me in a way that some of these other places don't.

Shan

NiNi, I think what you said about the assumptions people have about people who live in these more isolated places in the country or, like, on a small island, is really such an important thing that informed this story. Because King stormed onto that island with his big city attitude and he assumed that every single person he met was a hick who would never understand him. And I think one of the best parts of this story was seeing him have his eyes opened to the reality that there are queer people everywhere and there are people who can understand him everywhere and he has to be open to seeing them and connecting with them. I thought that was such an important piece of the journey that he went on as the main character of this story. I really loved the way the show peeled back those first assumptions that he had about a lot of the people he met in Marahuyo.

Ben 

It's very clear that King was sent to Marahuyo in the hopes that isolating him there digitally and physically would sort of, like, contain him. And it didn't. He seemed to adapt to his circumstances fairly quickly, even as he demanded that those circumstances [laughs] also adapt to him. I thought it was really interesting that they sent him to the mom who abandoned him essentially to hang out and live with his grandmother who's always had his back. That was probably one of the most unexpected dynamics in the whole show. I was not expecting that complex set of interactions where the grandma was so on his side that she had put a whole pride flag in his room and had dresses ready to help his friend, but the mom's still sorting her shit out.

Shan 

I loved the nuance of that, because… it can be complicated. We are shaped to some degree by our families and by the people who raised us, but we're also shaped by the world we live in. And I thought it was a cool choice to have King have an accepting and loving grandmother. His mother did not learn her fear and her bigotry from her own mother. And I think that's an interesting choice that really reflects reality.

Ben

I think what worked really well about having his grandma be so queer friendly is that when she tells him to give Marahuyo a chance, the growth arc that you mentioned is possible because he's able to receive that message from someone he trusts and respects, who he knows also trusts and respects him. I think that that sets him up to be open to learning things. ‘cause he spends the beginning of almost every episode giving us a small lesson in Filipino queer history, particularly as it pertains to colonization. 

I was gonna go to NiNi for that one and see if you had thoughts about that because you've spoken at length about the diasporic experience and living under extensive colonialism.

NiNi 

I mean, how much time do we have to have this conversation?

Ben 

Probably five to eight minutes.

[all laugh]

Shan

Yeah, do your whole talk on colonialism in five minutes, NiNi.

NiNi 

Oh my god, okay, no pressure. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons that Filipino BL in particular does speak to me because of that colonized experience. The colonized experience is so specific and so similar all over the world, no matter where you were colonized or who you were colonized by. You recognize it in people, you recognize it in the society, you recognize it in the environment. The way that the Philippines is so Catholic and Catholicism is all over this story. How Catholicism has harmed people, how people find shelter in it, how people find safety in it, it's all over this. 

And one of the things about coming from a place that was colonized is that you have this sort of weird love/hate relationship with the people and the places and the experiences of the colonizer. On the one hand, like, revolution, resistance, that's part of it. And that's part of what King is dealing with as well. Talking about the parts of history that get hidden by the colonizer because it's inconvenient to them or they wanna bury some particular truth. That's the resistance part, but also the part where people are talking about things like tradition and gentility and all that stuff that the various deans, because it's two deans—three deans, I think—in this story. And they're all talking about things like propriety and respectability. And those are things that you're fighting against every single day, where those ideas even come from is a place in yourself that you sort of recognize, but you fight against every day. The experience of being colonized does a number on your head, it does a number on your society. It is wild to experience.

One of the things that I enjoyed about this is that it did give me that kind of feeling of wanting something out of the experience that you're not even sure what it is. Like you want revolution, but you also want all the things that the colonizer told you to have. It's this bizarre feeling. 

Shan 

It’s a mindfuck.

NiNi 

Yeah, it is a mindfuck. And it's a hard thing to explain to anybody who hasn't had the experience.

00:20:24 - Marahuyo Project: On Queerness

Ben 

I wanna start moving into our character specific discussion. When King first gets to the island, he has a very weird meet cute [Shan laughs] with like the island's favorite boy who's the scion of their most beloved or most successful, whatever, family—the Soliman family—where a, like, shit ton of fish gets thrown in the air. [laughs]

Shan

There's so many fishes!

NiNi 

He literally gets showered in fish and I'm like, this is so clever. Like, as a joke, it was a very good joke. 

Shan

Very effective.

NiNi

It was a very effective joke. And as a metaphor, also extremely effective. It was so good. This is the kinda shit that JP Habac excels at.

Ben 

I knew you were gonna love that. So, right away, because King won't shut the fuck up about the fact that he's queer, he ends up finding a trans girl in his class almost immediately, who's also beefing with the local priest, who ends up going by the name of Venice. And the two of them team up and decide they're gonna start their own LGBTQIA+ organization. And Venice, was like, we added more letters? Wait, what?! [laughs] How do I say all of those? 

Shan 

I love my naive girl. She doesn't know anything.

Ben

She's so pretty. [laughs] Also, shout out to Venice for eating in, like, every scene—

Shan

Every scene!

Ben

—for eight episodes.

NiNi 

So much rambutan, I swear.

Shan 

Always eating rambutan specifically, not just eating, eating this specific island fruit. [laughs] She loves ‘em.

Ben

So, Ino's family is very beloved on this island and Ino is the first obstacle they think they have to get past to getting their organization approved. But very quickly we suss out that Ino is likely closeted. And then we confirm that he's closeted in a really interesting bit we'll get into in a bit. 

I wanted, while we're here talking about the island politics, NiNi, to talk about the reveal we get later on that Ino’s ancestor, who his family has all of this pride for, exists because he outed a queer man and then robbed him. And then the island community built a tradition around the poetry that they stole from a queer man, who they then basically drove to death.

NiNi 

Yeah. This is a comedy, by the way.

[all laugh]

NiNi 

I just had to fire that one out.

Shan 

We started with all this super serious stuff. It sounds like such a heavy show. And it is, kind of, but it doesn't feel heavy. It just deals with heavy things.

Ben 

The themes are actually heavy when you think about them, but because you've got really optimistic and energetic young people, it doesn't feel as heavy as it actually is.

NiNi 

It really doesn't. But I mean, again, this is a story of colonization. Things get stolen all the time. Your own history gets stolen from you. And you have to go back into history and find your truths. So that work of uncovering and unearthing and archiving and storytelling and passing things down from generation to generation, that is real active work that takes place every single day in a colonized place. Unlearning a lot of what the colonizer tells you about yourself. All of that is part of the colonized experience and that's what I was really gratified to see them tackling in this show. This idea that they hid the truth from you and now you have to not only go and learn the truth but tell it to as many people as possible.

Shan 

Yeah, and I think it's really meaningful that they found out this truth via a story told to them by an elder on the island who they just kind of happened upon.

Ben 

But it happened because they were doing research. They were trying to justify their organization and it was recommended to them that they show that this organization would be good for Marahuyo as it currently is, not just because some kid from Manila says they need to have this. And so the trio that had formed at that point was doing real research into the history of the town itself, and that's what eventually led them to asking this woman about this history.

Shan 

Yeah, and to tie that into the romance, which you kind of alluded to, Ben, but we haven't really talked about is, King and Ino, they start with a very antagonistic relationship. Over time we figure out this antagonism on Ino's side is because King is pulling things out of him that he's trying to suppress. He feels uncomfortable because he is a closeted queer kid and King is loudly and forcefully demanding that folks recognize his queerness and also the queerness within themselves. And so, they have an uncomfortable dynamic that starts to smooth out over time as they get to know each other and understand each other better and as Ino decides to kind of push back his fear and start helping King try to make this club happen. 

So it's in that context that they're on this research trip and they go to this elder and she sits them down and she tells them this story. And that is how Ino finds out that his whole family legacy is built on a lie and that his ancestor harmed somebody who's just like him, a gay man who did nothing wrong. All he did was profess his feelings for somebody who didn't return them. And he was destroyed over that. That is what Ino's family legacy was built on. Finding that out was just a huge moment of despair for him. And in some ways brought him and King closer together as they worked through that, and in other ways made it even harder, I think, to imagine being able to be with someone like King, who's so open and so free. It was a really beautiful moment and it was a really important moment, both in the romance and in the broader story.

NiNi

There's two things that you said there, Shan, that I actually want to pull out. The part that you said about Ino’s ancestor having harmed somebody whose only sin was expressing feelings to somebody who didn't return them. I actually, I can't remember exactly, but wasn't the story that he did return the feelings and then panicked about them, or something like that? I can't remember.

Shan

I think we don't know.

Ben 

That part is unclear.

Shan

It's a speculation. 

Ben

What we learned, based upon what is provable, that he had written poems about his unrequited love for the Soliman ancestor. And then the Soliman ancestor unintentionally—or maybe intentionally—discovered these poems. He had not been given them. I think that's a big part of this too, is that—what's his name, Nalundasan—was outed. And then the Soliman ancestor turned on him in a vile way. And that ended horribly. And—

Shan 

So we don't know if he turned on him because he was afraid, because he was suppressing his own queerness, or if he was just a garden variety, homophobic heterosexual man. We don't know.

Ben 

I think what also makes me particularly sad about that story is Nalundasan, the person that they harmed in this, had performed a role as a community and cultural leader. And had chosen to closet himself, he left descendants behind. He formed a marriage and had kids. This was just the part of his life that he was not able to express, so he expressed it in his poetry that he had kept private until it was made public. And that part is really sad too, because Ino is closeted and knows it. 

A lot of times in BL, a lot of these guys are, like, untapped sexual beings who are activated by the power of BL and product placement. In this story, most of the characters are well aware of how they feel about who they are and what's going on with them. King definitely knew who he was the whole time. His loud gay ass showed up with his mullet and was like, you can't tell me what to do. 

Shan 

His rainbow mullet.

Ben

Speaking of his mullet, I have to get this out on the podcast. I will never forgive his mother for cutting his hair while he was asleep. That was horrible and vile. And the only thing saving her from these knives is she's played by Sue Prado.

[Shan laughs]

NiNi 

No, but legit, the fact that the show lets this go really upset me. Because it was such a violation. When it happened, I gasped. And the show gave it a lot of grace and let it go and that did not sit right with my spirit, I have to say.

Ben 

I agree.

00:30:16 - Marahuyo Project: Our Characters

Ben

Ino is an interesting queer character in that when he sees King right away, he sees him almost as a threat, because Ino is trying not to draw attention to his own queerness. Like, it's clear he maybe wants to leave at some point and then deal with his shit. And he can feel that he's not going to be able to get away with that around King. He's also drawn to King because, I mean, why wouldn't he be? He's tall, he's really pretty. He wears ridiculously gay shirts. Some of them show off his midriff.

Shan 

And he's brave! He's brave in a way that—

Ben

So brave!

Shan

—-Ino wishes he was. That's the thing, right?

NiNi 

There's so much about King and King and Venice in particular that had me thinking a lot about the importance of the people who can't hide.

Ben 

Mmhmm.

NiNi

And what they mean to the community and what it means for them to be out there at the vanguard, taking all the shit and how that's almost never recognized or rewarded or anything like that. But it's so important for the ones who are like Ino, the ones who are like Archie, to see the Kings and the Venices just loud and out in front and visible and unhideable and unapologetic and what that means. And the show really made you feel that. It made you feel not just that King and Venice are brave, but also how important what they were trying to do was, what the mission for them was.

Ben 

It's also interesting too because their mission is not academic for them. King was dealing with homophobia even in Manila. Then he lands in Marahuyo and he's like, same shit different day. That man got called a slur and was like “hmph, uncreative.” And I was like, wow, they're throwing slurs around in these shows again. Finally, mask off. And I was weirdly relieved that the show was mask off about its homophobia because it's very frustrating sometimes to talk about shows where the homophobia is kind of subtle. And you have to argue with people about your interpretation, where they think you're being cruel to the show for recognizing what the show is doing. I like that that wasn't an issue here, thank you, JP Habac! 

But in terms of what Venice is dealing with and what Archie and Ino are dealing with, queerness is also not academic for them either. King is not the first other homo they've ever encountered, because we learn that Ino's father almost or temporarily left his family for a love with another man and then chose to come back to his family and stay with their mom. And his dad explains that he loves Ino's mom and wants to be her husband even if it means he cannot enjoy his attraction to men. So, Ino is dealing with, like, a double closet in his life where the whole fucking town knows about his dad steppin’ out on his mom with a man. 

We learn that Venice and Archie lost their friend.

Shan 

Should we do, Ben, a rundown of the characters? ‘Cause we haven't really done that yet.

Ben 

We probably should. Let's go down the whole cast! 

Shan 

Let's go down the list.

Ben

We've got King, our favorite gay boy with a mullet that should not have been lost. [Ben and Shan laugh] We have Ino, who's our big man on campus who gets his shit rocked. We've got Venice, everyone's favorite local trans girl. Who eats rambutan all the time.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

She loves those fucking rambutans.

Ben 

Hanging around the local priest all the time is Archie, Venice's former friend who has pulled back on his friendship with Venice because of the death of their friend, who he repeatedly deadnames over the course of the show until he finally cracks through the core of his grief.

Archie is a complex character to talk about because he is also queer in some way and suffering in his own closet. And he's choosing a path that leads him to the priesthood as a way to survive under the pressures of the homophobia he lives under. 

NiNi 

So many thoughts about that.

Shan 

Yeah, let's not, let’s not lose sight of the girls. Let's not go down the Archie Road yet. We also have—

Ben 

Lorena! Aka Lorie. Lorie is probably some kind of queer. Might be bi, might be a lesbian, might be asexual. It's very clear—

Shan 

She's figuring it out.

Ben

—she's still figuring it out by the end of the show. We are not going to label her here because she has not chosen one for herself. She is sorting through her own angst with men because of her own father's infidelity. And she's very close to her friend, Lili, who is eventually revealed to be probably intersex. And it's very clear that their friendship is extremely important to them in a way feels romantic on Lili's end, but Lorie is still sorting through. But the reveal from Lili to Lorie about this truth about her is one of my favorite moments in the whole show. 

And then there's that asshole Marco who ruins it like five minutes later. I hate that boy.

Shan 

Marco, our villain. 

Ben

I hate that boy.

Shan

He's really the most villainous character in the show. 

Ben

I hate that boy so much!

Shan

He's the worst. He's the fucking worst.

Ben

[laughs]I hate him. I hate him so much! Mmmmmm.

Shan 

This is a story that takes place on a small island, but it’s also in a school. So there are school dynamics at play here with this group and how they come together. King and Venice connect pretty much right away when he gets there because they are both visibly queer and they latch onto each other. And King is very much, as Ben said earlier, an activist. He is loud and proud and he demands respect for his existence. And he also wants to create space for other people like him, or somewhere on the queer spectrum to have pride and to be able to come out and have space, too. Venice is very classic sunshine character. That girl is so pretty and so dumb and she's just the nicest girl, just ever! [laughs] But she just doesn't really know much. She doesn't know much about queerness because she's been very isolated. So King is teaching her about what it means to be a queer activist, what some of these terms mean, what it means to try to fight for your space, ‘cause she has been in a space of insisting on living as herself, but also accepting that in some ways she would have to just be quiet and conform to get by in the school, and King doesn't find that acceptable. So they latch onto each other through that.

And then Lorie is the mayor's daughter, so she has a lot of status in the town, similar to Ino, who’s part of this family that is the big legacy family. So they both have a lot of positional power within the school and within the community, which they use over the course of the story to help with the club and helping some of these other kids who are more like outcasts. Lili is friends with Lorie and that's her social entree in the school. Archie is part of the local church and close with the priest, which gives him a kind of authority too. He's seen on the island as almost like the deputy priest.

Ben 

I have to say it, he has the authority given to an overseer.

Shan 

Exactly. That is definitely his role. He's kind of a cop. 

And Marco is just a little asshole who’s just a fucking asshole to everybody all the time. And they're all in school together, they're in this forced proximity and King and his arrival to the island really awakens in a lot of these kids who are queer but have been suppressing it, who are closeted either knowing or not, he really awakens in them this kind of connection to their own queerness. And they have varying responses to that. Some of them really joyfully wanting to come and be part of what he's building. Some of them being really afraid of it. We see the whole spectrum of responses there.

Ben 

I think what also really works for me in terms of how this felt particularly queer, there's two big things. First, spoiler alert, they do not get to have their club. They are not given official approval for their club, but then they go, fuck you, we don't need it anyway. And then they have their march regardless. I love that. 

The other part I like is that we have three characters who agree to out themselves in some way by trying to pursue the organization that they want to have. You get King, who's like, “I'm gay. You can use whatever slurs you want. They apply.” You got Venice, who's chosen to stay optimistic despite the death of Christina. And then you've got Lorie, who's like, you guys suck. I have way more fun with these guys. I'm going over there with them. And then each of them ends up holding the confidence of someone else who is closeted that they're close to.

King is developing a romance with Ino, Venice is holding the confidence of Archie, who does not come out over the course of this show. He's still closeted in the end and cheering for them from the closet. Something that I really appreciate the show doing. There are still people in our communities who do not feel safe enough to come out. And Lorie is holding Lili's confidence about her truth about being intersex. And I like that those three did not betray that confidence to each other. I thought that was a really important thing that the show did because when you are protecting someone who's closeted, the best way to do that is to shut the fuck up. You don't even tell people who could be trusted with that info because it's not your info to share.

That's the big point about protecting closeted people, is, if they're gonna come out, they need to feel like it's something that they have control over. What's so evil about Marco is he went out of his way to take that moment from Lili because she embarrassed him because he wouldn't stop sexually harassing Lorie.

NiNi 

Yeah, I do like that you get three different takes on that whole, I guess you could call it end game, of the closet because you've got Archie who stays in, you've got Ino who comes out, and then you've got Lili who gets outed. And then you get to see how each of those things impact the characters. I found that to be really, really interesting to watch.

00:42:09 - Marahuyo Project: The Christina Story

Shan 

We should talk more, we've been alluding to it, but we should fully elaborate on the backstory with Archie and Venice because it is, I think, one of the most touching stories that this show told. 

So Archie and Venice and their friend Christina grew up together. They have been best friends since childhood. We don't get every detail, but what we do learn over time is that Christina, like Venice, was trans and somewhere in her transition and in her coming out, something went very badly for her and she ended up, presumably, ending her own life. This created very different responses in Archie and in Venice. Venice kind of carried on, she's a very optimistic person at heart and she carried on that way, kept Christina's memory close, and continued to live in her truth as a trans woman and carry that forward. Archie became so deeply afraid of queerness and the way that it could damage somebody's life that he locked up tight, and as a result of that, rejected Venice and her transition. 

When the story begins, he seems like—on the surface—just this hateful bigot. He's constantly deadnaming Venice and Christina. He is disapproving of Venice. He doesn't support her. And then you find out more about this history that they share together. And you find out more about what motivates him and how ultimately at the root of it he really is just so terrified for Venice that she will end up like Christina. And he thinks, wrongly of course, that preventing her from transitioning is going to save her life. And that is what is driving his behavior. What a nuanced story to tell about what is normally reduced to something so simple and hateful.

The emotions between Archie and Venice are so complex. And Venice, because she's a very kind and generous person, she has a lot of space for Archie. She understands why he's behaving the way he is, and she gives him a lot of grace around it. And she really tries to support him. Like, he is so afraid and doing so much to suppress his own queerness that it's manifesting physically for him. We see throughout the show he's got this anxiety habit of scratching at his neck. It gets gross, like, to the point where he's basically scratching—

Ben

It was gross. 

Shan

—his skin off. 

Ben 

If you have any phobias or squicks around people self harming because they've been scratching at themselves too much. You're gonna want to maybe be ready to look away when they show the back of Archie's neck—

Shan

Yeah, be prepared.

Ben

—because he's legit tearing his own body apart. They manifest how deeply he's tearing himself apart in the way he's scratching up his neck. It's really uncomfortable to watch.

Shan 

It is. And so Venice sees that, and she has a lot of sympathy for him. She understands why he's behaving in this way. And she doesn't tell anybody else. That's their private personal history. And she doesn't think it's hers to tell. It's just a really nuanced look at how these fears and anxieties and how suppression of your own queerness can manifest in these different forms of self-harm and harm to others. I just, I found it to be such a beautiful and touching story that didn't get all the way resolved by the end of the show, because you don't just fix something this deep overnight.

NiNi 

I think that the colonized thing adds another layer to this as well because the place that Archie is running towards, running away from himself, is the church. That's the colonial ramification. That's the idea that respectability will save you. That comes from the colonizer. All of that stuff is on top of all this other stuff that's happening with Archie. It's something that I recognize from people that I know, people that I grew up with, people who grew up in the Catholic Church, definitely, but also in other traditions that are imported traditions, that are colonizer traditions. This idea that if you are part of the establishment, if you are part of what they value, if you are somehow involved in that stuff, then you're safe. These ideas are not uncommon to even uncolonized societies, but there's a whole different layer and level of it that you get in colonized societies or societies that were colonized.

I don't even know if I can accurately describe how it works, but just know that there's layers to this shit. And one of those layers is Archie trying to disappear into the Catholic Church.

Ben 

My favorite thing about Archie, too, was despite how awful he seemed at first, they gave us signs early on that there was more going on here. There was the way that Venice didn't sneer at Archie. She mostly looked annoyed and disappointed. Like, it was clear that they had a relationship. And there was a moment when an adult stormed in on their party and Venice was in a dress. Archie, from the shadows, reaches out to her back and tries to pull her back from being seen because he's worried that something might happen to her. And I'm like, never mind. I know where the story is going! And I was way less worried about Archie. 

By the time we get the reveal about what happened to Christina, Archie is the one who is seemingly the most visibly devastated by this loss. So, all of his cruelty towards them was given context for me that doesn't make it okay, but humanizes it. This is not the best way to cope with this, because shoving your other friend into a closet is not going to help her either. But I understand that this is how you're trying to cope. It's not helping you, either. But I understand you.

00:48:52 - Marahuyo Project: Parents and Children

Ben

So, on a lighter note! [laughs] Since we've talked about a lot of sad things here.

Shan 

Here we go! This is a comedy. Let's remember. [laughs]

NiNi 

I was just about to say.

Ben 

On a lighter note, one of the most absolutely fantastic things about this show was the way that they had Adrian constantly breaking the fourth wall to look at us and kiki with us as the audience.

Shan 

Yes! Whenever King would look at us, I would get so thrilled. [laughs] And he was always pulling the best faces.  [laughs] 

Ben 

Adrian is really funny. Adrian, I don't think you'll ever hear us because we're a tiny little podcast, but we loved your work, sir. I loved your work and all three things I've seen you do. It was great. We love you. Thank you for the gift of King and the gift of Dominic.

Shan 

Do you have a favorite fourth wall break? Mine was when [laughs] he looked at the camera when Ino was talking to him by the water and was like, “oh my god, he loves me.”

Ben 

Yeah, that was the one for me!

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan 

I love that kid so much.

Ben 

I liked the little march they did at the end. I don’t think the mom deserved to be there. And I don't know about Ino's dad deserving to be there, but grandma deserved to be there and I'm glad she was there. I liked seeing them all walk together because it's a cool visual, even if I think it's not wholly earned by some of the time that they had available. 

Let's talk about Ino's mom. Ino's mom clocks very quickly when she starts seeing him hang around King that clearly he's gay, too. And she's like, what the fuck? What are you gonna do to our family? And he pushes back on that because he was ready for that particular fight. I was really proud that for a kid who they've been grooming to speak in front of crowds and talk about stuff, he was able to hold his ground against his mom. And I was really frustrated with his dad. I did not think his dad gave him any useful perspective or advice at all. And that was a real failure.

Shan 

That man was useless.

NiNi

I actually found the dad to be really sad. I think the dad was included almost as a cautionary tale? Because the dad just seemed so beaten down by his whole life, by everything that had happened to him, by all the choices that he had made. Yes, he's trying to make it so that his son doesn't have to make the same choices that he made once he realizes what's going on. Because the other thing is that he definitely buries his head in sand a little bit about Ino because of his own background and his own history.

Ben 

I think that's the only way to read him. 

Shan 

He definitely was.

Ben

I don't think we got really great answers about Judy, King's mom either, about why she left.

Shan

That was one of the disappointments for me. I really loved the show. I didn't think it was perfect. It had a couple areas where I think it could have been stronger and one of the primary ones was on Judy. I really wanted to understand her better because we know her mother, we know that she wasn't raised to be this way. So bigoted, so afraid. And I don't really feel like we ended the show understanding better why she left King. Why she treated him the way that she did. I just, I wanted to get a little bit deeper down into what was going on with her. And I just don't think we ever got there. 

NiNi 

Well, maybe the show didn't get there, but I got it. I know so many Judys. She left the country, went to the big city, fell in love with this man. I don't know what happened with her and the husband, but whatever it is, plus the whole thing with King, she didn't know how to deal with it. She ran straight home to the arms of something simpler and more familiar. It has nothing to do with the way that she was raised. It has everything to do with that, like, colonized mentality. Her life went to shit and it was because she didn't do the things that in her mind she was supposed to. Because I guarantee that she rebelled against her own mother, not just in running away to Manila, but also I am sure her mother's such a free spirit, she's definitely straight-laced, I'm telling you. It's a story that I've seen so many times. 

I agree that it wasn't on screen, but for me it was a shortcut. Like, I saw Judy, I saw the grandmother, I was like immediately I got it.

Shan 

Yeah, I appreciate that. I definitely needed the show to actually go there, [laughs] especially because like, this is a woman who abandoned her child and I wanted to understand why. And I wanted to understand the way that she chose to interact with him even after he came to live with her. And they just never dug into it. That was a bit of a disappointment for me.

Ben 

Big fan of this show never showing us King's dad, fuck that dude.

Shan 

Yeah, we didn't need to see him. I don't care about that.

Ben 

I also want to talk about… one of my favorite things was despite having limited connectivity on the island, King did not lose touch with his bestie in Manila, who called that man out on his shit every single time he got her on the phone. [laughs] It's very important when you're gay and extra that you have somebody who tells you when you're doin’ too much.

NiNi 

You do need a get a grip friend. And she was definitely the get a grip friend. It's one of the things that JP Habac likes to do, because he did the same thing with Vlad and his friend Sue in GSP [Gaya sa Pelikula]. She was not there, but she was his get a grip friend. She's the one who called him out on, like, sad dancing to The 1975.

I love a get grip friend, my favorite type of character.

00:54:54 - Marahuyo Project: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben 

My last positive comment about this show—I'm lying, I probably have hundreds more—[Shan laughs] is this show wore its politics on its sleeves, but in a way that didn't feel preachy. There's a really great moment where King is pushing back on a lesson they're having about fucking Machiavelli's The Prince. Oh my! [exhale sound] I went to an all male Catholic school, I have strong thoughts about [laughs] Machiavelli. 

I love King reminding people in that whole stupid argument that no social progress has ever been made by people being very polite to the powers that be. Every form of welfare and the social safety net that we all expect and rely upon, people fought and bled for. And I liked that there was not really a response to that. Are there any social services that you rely upon and expect? People died for that. So shut the fuck up. 

Great work. A+.

NiNi

And there's some little things that I want to really pick up the show on. The whole Balagtasan tradition, the debate in verse, it was so beautiful. I really enjoyed listening to the debate on a musical level, almost. And while we're talking about music again, this is from the people who did Gaya sa Pelikula. So of course the music was gonna be bangin’.

Ben 

This soundtrack, this soundtrack fucks!

Shan

Let me actually get the name of the song because holy shit, one of my favorite songs that I have ever heard in a drama. Let me pull it up.

NiNi 

Which one are we talking about? Di Inakala or Magpatuloy?

Shan 

My favorite song in this drama, so beautiful, it's called Di Inakala by Paul Pablo. Gorgeous.

Ben

It really is.

Shan

It was used in the romance arc. 

NiNi 

It's fabulous.

Shan

What was the one you really liked, NiNi?

NiNi 

I like, there's a song called Magpatuloy by Mijon and that song, I listen to literally every day now, every single day. One of the things I always love—

Shan

Beautiful.

NiNi

—about this team, about JP Habac, and he works with music supervisor Patricia Lasaten, they always pull out Filipino artists and songs in Filipino language front and center when they're doing music for their shows and I love it. I've learned about so many great artists and gotten into so much great music because of this team.

Ben 

We're gonna have to move on ‘cause now I'm gonna start talking about the consent part of their first kiss and how great that was. The show's great! Please go watch it.

Let's finally rate this show. Let's go around the board. Shan, rating?

Shan 

I gave this show a 9. I loved it. I think it's beautiful. I think it is required viewing for anybody who cares about queer drama, good community drama, good Filipino drama. There's just so many reasons to watch it. It has a bit of rough edges around some of the storytelling decisions. I don't think it's a perfect show, but it is beautiful and I intend to rewatch it and I hope everybody listening to this will watch it if you haven't already.

Ben 

NiNi, rating?

NiNi 

I also give this a 9 because I do agree that the things around King's mom sort of hung there. I don't think they necessarily had to be resolved, but they weren't really even addressed very much. So that would be why I dinged it, but it is a fantastic show.

Ben 

My public rating for this show is a 10. I do think it's one of those shows that anybody should watch. And if you are one of the listeners who likes what I have to say about things and is curious about how I think about stuff, it's one of those shows that I beg people to watch. It's one of those shows that you show people: here’s a short list of shows to watch to understand me as a person.

I think everybody should watch it. I agree with you both. Not a perfect show. Has some rough edges, but in terms of me recommending it to people, I'm givin’ it a 10. Top of the list. Go watch this. Right now.

NiNi 

So two nines and a ten, okay, I'm not mathing today. We're gonna give it a 9.5 from The Conversation.

Shan 

Feels right.

Ben 

I think a 9.5 from us is correct. It is an incredibly good show with a couple of quibbles we have about mostly the way they handled some of the adult storylines. But I think the youth storylines are crystal clear and really well-executed. And we get to see a side of queerness that we very rarely see. It’s a beautiful show. Please watch it.

00:59:48 - Ossan no Pants

NiNi 

Let's move on now to the next show that we're going to talk about, and it is called—let me see if I can get this correct…Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka!…I totally butchered that. English title is Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear!

I just started watching this today so I'm very excited to discuss what of it I have seen and I am just prepared for the spoilers that are going to come. So Ben, what is Oppan about?

Ben

About how if we give Japan 50 minutes to tell a story, they're gonna use that time well! [laughs]

Shan

So well!

Ben

Oppan is about this man named Okita Makoto, who is a kind of upper-middle manager of a printer sales company. He is very much a salaryman type who is upholding a lot of casual misogyny because this is what he is taught to do, and he believes he's filling in the role that's expected of him. He goes to work every day. He works really hard. He sacrifices everything of importance that matters to him to be present for the work. and he leaves the household matters to his wife. And it's not going that great! 

He finds himself feeling distant from his wife, distant from his daughter who doesn't seem to like him; and their family is dealing with the crisis because for whatever reason, his son—who he's never been able to feel close to—refuses to go to school and doesn't leave his room. 

One day while walking to work, he almost falls down the stairs, because he lives in a walkable community, and is saved by a young gay man who catches him. The two of them have a little bit of bonding that comes from this. A friendship begins to grow between them. And over the course of this friendship, Makoto decides that he needs to change with the times and update himself, because he recognizes that he wants to better connect to people and what he's currently doing is not working. 

And the rest of the show is about Makoto learning how to be a good friend to this young gay man who's near to graduating from veterinary school, his wife, his two children who are an adult and approaching adulthood, and his coworkers. 

This is one of the kindest shows I've ever watched. When I tell you that a show about a misogynist was one of the most empathetic things I've watched this year, I am not being funny or being ironic. This show understands how everybody responds to societal misogyny, how it shapes them, hurts them, but doesn't have to be the end of their story. This was an absolutely delightful experience. I loved every single moment I spent with this show. Holy shit. 

NiNi, before we get into Shan's impressions, because I have much I want to ask Shan about, you are three episodes in. Just give us some of your initial impressions and thoughts on how you're feeling about the characters, and some of the stories you've encountered so far.

NiNi

The only reason that this show works is because Okita loves his family. He really truly loves his family, and he doesn't want to lose them, and he knows that they're slipping away from him. And there are so many ways that that kind of story turns negative. In this instance, the show uses that love and that fear of losing his family, and turns it in a positive direction. He turns it in on himself and says to himself, “What can I do to not let this happen? How can I bring them back to me? What have I been doing wrong and what can I now start to try to do right?” And that's really what stuck with me. 

We don't talk about this a lot in the world. I know this is a weird segue. Life is extremely hard on middle-aged men in the modern age, because they were told a certain way to be that has just, to their minds, vanished. They were told they were the main character and that everybody was around them to make sure that they succeeded. And that's gone, and they don't know how to deal with that. Watching a middle-aged man deal with that in a healthy way, in a way that looks at himself and says ‘I have to do better,’ I find incredibly satisfying. That spirit of, ‘I need to look at my life, look at my choices’ basically and ‘I need to fix the relationships in my life because I have broken them.’

01:05:18 - Ossan no Pants: Our Characters

Shan

I think we need to start with a little character cheat sheet.

Ben

Let's first name the Okita family members.

Shan

Makoto is our patriarch, as NiNi just so eloquently said, is the heart of this show, his journey. We have in his family, his wife Mika, his daughter Moe, and his son Kakeru. That’s our core family that we will keep coming back to. 

Our other main character is Igarashi Daichi, and he is the young gay man who lives in the neighborhood who meets Makoto and kind of starts the journey that he's on. Daichi also has parents who are relevant to the story. Mihoko is his mother and his dad, we will just be referring to as ‘That Asshole.’ 

Ben

—Fuck that dude! Ho ho!

Shan

Fuck that dude. We don't need to give him a name. 

Daichi also has a boyfriend who, in what I considered a bit of a revelation for this show, actually matters and has a story. Madoka is his name. He's very important. We'll talk about him. 

We also have a broad constellation of side characters in this show. I will not name them all because there are far too many, but a few that I think are really important to know because they have important plot lines or are part of important plot lines for our family are Hasegawa, who is a schoolmate of Kakeru's who is on the baseball team; and Shizuka, who is a schoolmate of Kakeru's who bonds with him over a shared interest. And then we have Furuike, who is Makoto's senior at work. Those folks all have pretty important actual arcs in the show. 

There are also other side characters who are Makoto's coworkers, Kakeru's schoolmates, and Moe's friends, but they're not as present in the narrative.

Good luck to our translator for having to do all those names. [Ben laughs] That's me, why am I, I'm giving myself luck!

It's a big cast. This is an ensemble show. It's a family drama. It is rooted within a family as the central unit of the story, and then we follow each of these family members on their own individual storylines that intersect with some of the other characters that we talked about.

Like, in terms of my overall feeling about this show, I just fucking love it. It is one of the best family dramas I've ever seen. It is one of the most thoughtful and smart shows that I have seen in the way that it takes the themes that it wants to explore and it really digs deep into them in a way that still feels really natural. Like, this show is absolutely intended to be educational television for a broad audience. And it also is just a really good drama that does not feel, usually, like an afterschool special. It feels like a very organic and natural story of a family and the people around them, rather than a show that's just sitting you down and preaching at you all the time, despite the fact that it is literally preaching at you a lot through the story and through its themes. 

You know, I think NiNi's summary of, kind of, the core plot of the story and the purpose of the story was spot on. This is really rooted in Makoto's journey to do better, to recognize that he has damaged his own relationships with his inability to change and evolve with the times, that he is the one who needs to do some thinking and some learning. And I think what's so beautiful about this show is that he is able to do that through the kindness and the compassion of a stranger who sees potential in him, who sees an opportunity to engage him and to help him learn, rather than just dismissing him. 

You really need both sides of that equation to make this work. You need somebody who is willing to admit that they're wrong and be open to learning. And you need someone who is willing to have patience for them and to see the good intentions behind some of their mistakes. And that's what you really get in Makoto and Daichi. They are the unconventional friendship that really powers this show, that gives Makoto the energy he needs and the knowledge he needs to do better by his family. And then in turn gives Daichi the support he needs when his life starts getting a little bit messier. 

One of my favorite things about this show is that when it starts, you kinda get a little niggling in the back of your head, you're a little worried. You're like, is Daichi a manic pixie dream gay? Is he just here to be this fairy who blesses Makoto and helps him be better and is used as this font of wisdom? Or is he going to be a full human and a real person? And it's definitely the latter. 

As the story goes on, we get his life filled in too. We learn about his struggles. We learn about his relationship. We learn about his family. We see him make mistakes, and we see him need to draw on strength from Makoto. This friendship becomes very mutual, and they change each other's lives. This is an all-time great drama. I love it. Everyone needs to watch it.

Ben

NiNi, I want to check in with you about Daichi at episode three, because you just got through the sequence where they went to the public bath together, and Makoto was trying to show Daichi some appreciation. And it was well intentioned, but kind of annoying. And Daichi got legitimately irritated in that moment and very politely told Makoto to step back.

I want to know how you feel about Daichi coming out of the sequences that happened in the public bath,

NiNi

I think the timing and pacing of that is actually perfect because I was just getting to the point in the story, having watched two and a half episodes of Daichi having what seemed like unending patience for Makoto and his foibles and his crass, sometimes crude expressions and the way that he is often unthinking before he says something. I was just getting to the point of being, does this kid not have any feelings or does he just exist to be Makoto's conscience and sounding board? 

And then that moment in the tub happened and I was like, okay, so he does get pissed off. And he does get annoyed and he does get exhausted and he does get tired of having to deal with this shit.

Ben

Daichi joins a very short list of characters who are now my all-time favorites. He and Shiro are gonna live in my psyche for the rest of my life.

Daichi is so fascinating because he's a well-read, self-actualized queer character who has the full support of his mother, who has clearly dealt with a lot of homophobia. And we learned that he suffered in high school when he was outed. But he has chosen to proceed through the world with kindness and not assume the worst from people, because it burns you out. We get to experience Daichi's complicated romance with his closeted boyfriend. 

And then the relationship he forms with Kakeru. Daichi is helping Kakeru because Kakeru might be going through some sort of queer awakening. He wants to have control over his gender presentation and he likes to be cute. He wants to be pretty. He wants to use feminine styling and cutesy girly things, because they make him happy. But he is not certain yet where he sits on the spectrum of sexuality. The big thing he hates the most is people projecting and presuming about him.

Shan

They really made a contrast here because Moe, Kakeru’s sister. She is so schlubby. She's like hair tossed up in a headband, unshowered, wearing, like, shapeless sweats. Just like looking like, you know, she didn't even bother with anything in the morning besides rolling out of bed. But then when she has to go out in the world and she does her hair and puts on makeup, she looks like a different person. The first time they showed Moe outside of the house all done up, I was literally like, who is that? Who the fuck is this girl? Why are we following her? It really took me a second to click in and realize that was Moe.

What I liked about the contrast there is that Kakeru, for him being pretty, coming on with these feminine styles, doing his makeup every day, that is what actually makes him happy. So he looks that way even when he's sitting in his own home. For Moe, that's not part of her self identity so much as part of the armor that she puts on in the world. They didn't comment on it at all in the show, but the visual contrast was there the whole time between these two siblings.

Ben

I love so much that Daichi was able to help Kakeru get himself out of that room by never telling him what to do, by always focusing on asking Kakeru questions to help Kakeru find the answer in himself. He often did the same with Makoto as well. He very gently corrected presumptions. 

Like, he—Makoto asked a reasonable question. “My son likes to dress up like a girl. Is he trans, and what do I do about that?” And Daichi is like, “Well, he hasn't said he's trans, so let's not presume there, but let's think about trans people for a moment.” And I really love the way that that was handled because Kakeru tells us plainly that he does like being a boy, but he wants to be pretty.

There's the bit where Kakeru is leaving and he thanks his dad for what he did, and his dad, desperate to try and say something that helps his son is like, “You survived being my son for 17 years, you can handle anything.” And I was like, Oh, buddy. [laughs] 

Man, I'm getting lost in all the characters I want to talk about. Let's go back one step and let's focus on Daichi. Daichi helps Kakeru by being gentle with him and letting him figure things out for himself, and then giving him encouragement and friendship when he needs it. And when we finally get to see Daichi's relationship with Madoka, it's complicated. He has an incredible meet-cute with the biggest man we've ever seen in a Japanese drama.

NiNi

I have seen that man! He is large!

Shan

That man is large. He's large.

NiNi, immediately: “Why did no one tell me there was a large man in this drama?”

NiNi

Ben and Shan can attest, literally I paused and I typed in the chat, “So who is this big one?” I was like, why is there a large man and nobody told me there was a large man here?

Ben

Shan is like, I feel like we failed on our strategy with needing to get her to watch this. We should have told her it was a big man. I'm just like, see, but then she would have felt like we were baiting her and she would have taken even longer to start. It's better that you discovered the large man— 

Shan

—We decided to let you discover on your own.

Ben

—You needed to discover the large man on your own as a, as a pleasant surprise.

NiNi

Listen, it was very pleasant and very surprising, because all of a sudden he was just there and he was large and I was like—

Shan

There he is. Can't miss him. He's so big.

NiNi

—these bitches, these, these bitches didn't tell me that there was a large man here—

Ben

Nope!

NiNi

—I'm disappointed in you all. I will say that much. [laughs]

Ben

Nope. We got exactly what we wanted. Because you kept watching. You like, “There's a large man. Is he going to show up again?” And then you kept watching. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

NiNi

You…

Shan

Let's tell the people more about Madoka, Ben.

Ben

So Madoka is from a smaller community, and his family is anticipating his return home after completing his veterinary studies. He's going to take a position at a large clinic that's basically been prepared for him. He's expected to marry. And this is a huge amount of pressure on him. He doesn't want to disappoint his family and let them down because he's not shared this truth with them because he's afraid of that disappointment. 

I think for a lot of us, that was my big thing that kept me in the closet. Because my family wasn't more homophobic than like a standard Southern cosmopolitan family. But they have these ideas about who you're going to grow up to be in the life that you might be sharing with them as you get older. And when you tell them this about yourself, you are shattering whatever image of your life that they had growing up, particularly when you were able to hide what you were. 

Certain people cannot hide who they were. Daichi is one of those characters who could not hide who he was, and his peers made him suffer for it. And his father. Fuck that man. Fuck that man!

Shan

Seriously, fuck that man. We have nothing nice to say about him. Nothing!

Ben

But Daichi is being patient with Madoka, too, because he's not gonna demand like, “You have to come out so that we can be together.” He's patient with him and lets him sort through that. And the show lets that be as difficult as it needs to be. When these two eventually decide to marry, they have a stellar sequence that I will never get out of my brain. I don't wanna describe it further because you’re gonna watch this scene, NiNi, but know that the proposal sent all of the clowns into the stratosphere.

Shan

All of the clowns and all of the characters within the show as well. 

[Ben and Shan laugh]

The people inside the show reacting to it happening were perfect mirrors of all of us at home reacting to it happening. It was so good. And that's a surprising thing in and of itself, that in this family drama that was meant to be more mainstream, we actually saw two gay men decide to marry each other. Same-sex marriage is still not legal in Japan. That doesn't mean that people don't want to commit to each other in a meaningful way, and I think it was really powerful to see these characters make that choice. As the show goes on, we learn more about Daichi's family and his horrible fucking father— 

Ben

—Horrible man!

Shan

—and a fucking horrible homophobe who has made Daichi feel so isolated and small in so many ways. And we see this dynamic flip between him and Madoka, where he's been the one who's been patient and been strong while Madoka had to work out talking to his family. And then his horrible father comes back into the picture, and suddenly Daichi is the one who's having a crisis of confidence. And he doesn't know if he can commit to this life that he knows he wants because of the way that it disappoints his father, who he still has this attachment to. 

To see them get the chance to support each other through those journeys and to come out the other side of it was just such a really meaningful part of this story. And the way that it tied back to the Okita family because they have come to love Daichi. They have their own relationships with him. He's so important to them in a number of different ways. And so they get very invested in his life. We talked earlier about how in these dramas, the side characters don't exist just to power a romance, right? These are not fujoshis. That's not what's going on here— 

Ben

—Well, there is a fujoshi in the story. Like—

Shan

Although Moe does write—

Ben

—gay boys— [laughs]

Shan

Yeah, she's a mangaka. She does actually write yaoi manga, but she's not like that about Daichi and Madoka. They are real people to her. She's not looking at them as a fan girl. She's here for fictional romance only. 

So, the Okita family really cares about this couple and wants to see them happy and is so deeply emotionally invested in them that it becomes part of their family story, too. It's just a really beautiful way that Daichi's family became very connected to the Okita family, and that all of them became a bit of a surrogate family for Madoka—whose own family by the end of the story does know more about him and have accepted him—but are kind of far away. So he gets this familial support system through these other two families coming together and surrounding him and Daichi with love.

NiNi

Shan you said something there about being surprised about how they got to a wedding. I'm actually not surprised because one of the things that Ben and I have been discussing about Japanese drama when we've been discussing it lately is how there seems to be a category of Japanese drama in like the last five to ten years I’d say which is what I've been personally calling normalization drama.

Me, My Husband, and My Husband's Boyfriend. She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. Koisenu Futari. Like, there's a list of these shows, and this list is building up, of shows that are looking at, they would probably use the term 'alternative lifestyles'. But what it's about is normalizing these things because so much of what I understand about Japanese culture is about not standing out. It's about conforming. And the reason, and Ben and I have talked about this, that a lot of homophobia and stuff that comes out in Japanese dramas is more about how people are rocking the boat than necessarily about the queerness in particular sometimes. 

One of the things that I have been looking at in these normalization dramas and in terms of what Japan tends to put in front of its audiences is about saying, “Look at these people, they're just like you. Isn't it lovely? Isn't it normal? These people are like us.” So I'm not surprised that this is something that came out of Japan.

Shan

I think that's a really accurate description of what this show is trying to do and why it does fit into that pattern. As we were watching live, it wasn't clear to us as we were going how much any of these side characters or storylines was going to get real attention. And so I think, honestly, I think we were all surprised that he was a real character, that Madoka got his own storyline, that he wasn't just there to be part of Daichi's backstory. That he wasn't just there to be a complication for Daichi, but that he became a character in his own right and got a whole story. 

Like, this show really became a true ensemble piece. Makoto's at the center of it always, but this show really cared about every single character. Even the side characters. Like, the characters that you would normally expect to only kind of be in the backgrounds of scenes. Some of them really got to come to the fore for, like, limited periods of time and really shine. 

One of my favorite side characters was Hasegawa, who is a classmate of Kakeru's, who was on the baseball team with Kakeru. One of my favorite little side stories in this show is that Hasegawa, he actually is really curious about Kakeru and he cares about why he has disappeared from school, and he wants to understand him. And he really makes an effort to reach out to him. He goes to Kakeru to ask for help with skin care because he has acne, and Kakeru gives him an amazing routine, buys him a whole slew of products and gives him—

Ben

—And it starts working like right away. That man's skin cleared up in like a week!

Shan

That boy looks amazing! His skin was cleared up within a week! He went to him for skincare help because he knew that that was a way to approach Kakeru that would be acceptable to him, and then use that as an in to try to rekindle their friendship. And eventually when Kakeru was ready, and felt like he could trust him again, they did start having more mutual exchanges and rebuilt their friendship. 

I mean, listen, I can't lie. We all know I was shipping it. I know this is not real—

Ben

I did not feel bad for Makoto when he was like, “Kakeru seems to be having some very nice interactions with a boy. I mean— 

Shan

He fully, he was like, does he like that boy?

Ben

—if that's where it's gonna go, we gotta make sure he knows. It's okay, son.”

Shan

Yeah, and we kind of knew it wasn't going to go there because that's not the point of the show. This is not a romance drama, and they already had a romance storyline that they were dealing with with Daichi and Madoka. But I was kind of shipping it, because this boy was such a nice boy. I really liked the way that this show made room for that. That one of the things that I think stands out the most about this show is how much empathy it has for all of its characters. Even the shitty dad. 

This show has some empathy for him. We don't like him, but the show has space to understand his perspective. All of these side characters, the show really cares about giving space to who they are and revealing through context that they also have the chance if they're willing to take it to learn more and open their mind and be kind to others.

01:26:30 - Ossan no Pants: Key Character Arcs

Ben

I'm gonna blow through a lot of these characters to power through some of the arcs they went on. 

NiNi, you watched episode two where Moe was determined to go to Comica to sell her manga to her readers. But the family was like, you're too sick. You cannot go to a public venue. And Makoto decides to step up and go sell the books for her and brings Daichi along to help. That was a really interesting episode for us to see Makoto step into Moe's passion and Moe's world and see what she values. And it's the beginning of the rebuilding of their relationship.

NiNi

The show isn't just about Makoto's relationship with Kakeru, it's about his relationship with his entire family. Because you see how disconnected he is from his family. Like, even the dog— ignores him. 

Ben

—Carlos!

NiNi

Like, there's a whole side plot about the dog ignoring him. Okay? I have a lot of thoughts about men of a certain age. We are feminists on this show, and as feminists we actually do love men and want better for them. One of the things about this show is watching a man also want better for himself. Beautiful.

Anyway, he's become so disconnected from his family because he doesn't have any kind of interiority, he has no inner life, he has no conception of self beyond what society has given him. He has no hobbies, he has no things that are interesting for him. On a day when he's at home and all the rest of his family is out or doing something that means something to them, he's sitting at home because he doesn't have anything to do. And then he eventually ends up going out and getting drunk in the park because what else does he have to do, because he has no other interest because he's never been allowed to have this internal life. 

And part of the show is about him actually doing that, and part of that story is him understanding his daughter's internal life because he's been so dismissive of what she does. She's a mangaka, she works on what we in fandom call the transformative works space.

Ben

[laughs] She's a doujin artist writing fic about her favorite characters.

Shan

I love her so much.

NiNi

She's fantastic. This is not something—yes, she makes money on it occasionally—but she does this for the love. This is a hobby for her. And he doesn't understand being so involved in something that you are not a professional at, you are an amateur in that sense of the word, but it's important to you. And what you do is important to people. It made me feel a lot of feelings about this podcast. I gotta be real with you. But anyway—

Ben

Aw, bestie!

[Shan laughs]

NiNi

It did, it really did. So him sort of stepping into her world and understanding that about her—to my mind the way that I saw it, it made him also feel a little bit sad that he doesn't have anything like that. I saw a little bit of sadness that even as he feels the joy of stepping into her world, and starting to understand his daughter a little more, and having them getting that little bit closer off of this interaction, and opening a little bit of a door for their relationship to start being repaired, I could see it raised a little bit of sadness in him as well. And I'm curious to follow that thread and see where it goes. 

One thing that I've been really interested in, I realized that Mika, the mom, actually does have a job outside of the home. When she first called from work, in my head I'm like, did we know she had a job? And the fact that when he gets home, she's always got food prepared on the table for him. He never asks about it. He never says thank you about it. It's expected that it's gonna be there. 

Ben

Good—

NiNi

He comes in at the end of the day. He never asks her about her day. He doesn't seem to have any interest. And I am waiting for him to realize. I am ready and excited to see how he starts repairing his relationships with each of these people in his family. Like he even has to repair his relationship with the dog at this point. That's how bad it's gotten.

Shan

[laughs] I'm so excited for you watching this show, NiNi. I do want to give Mika her due because she is the overlooked member of this family, she is doing so much of the invisible and emotional labor for the family. And the show does give her her due and you'll get to see all of that. It kind of builds on what you were saying about Moe and how she feels about the fandom stuff that she does. 

Like, this show really understands fandom and what it means to people. Mika, she is a mother. She does have a job that you'll learn more about. And she's also a fan. She is a fan of a K-pop group called RANDOM. That actually ends up being a really important part of who she is and a part of her story with Makoto and his journey to understand her. They really take that seriously and they really help you understand and they motivate her obsession with this K-pop group and really root you in following them as a fan has done for her in her life, and allow Makoto to understand that too. 

And when he gets there, when he finally fully clicks into what he owes to this group of K-pop idols who have given his wife something to feel joyful about is one of my favorite moments in the show.

Ben

So, Mika tells us about how she's given up a lot in her life to be the mom figure of this family. She was spiraling in a depressive state when Moe was having problems, Kakeru wouldn't leave his room, and Makoto didn't even want to talk to her about any of these big family problems. And she felt like if it had been someone else, they would have solved it already, that she had failed as a mom.

In this moment of despair, she saw an interview with the leader of RANDOM, and was really touched by the way he talked about dealing with the challenges in his life. That gave her a light out, and caring about RANDOM and the goings on with that band gave her a little light that she was able to hold on to, to hold fast, as her family dealt with these big problems that she was trying to just tackle for them.

Once she reveals all of this—as they're on the way to a concert together, by the way! 

Shan

Hell yeah!

Ben

Makoto says, “Ah, then RANDOM is the Okita family's benefactor.” I just love that man so much because that is the right response.

Shan

What a good attitude, sir! You’re doing amazing!

NiNi

What you just said just leads me to think about the scene that gives the show its name about the old man's underwear thing. Makoto has ways, of expressing yes, but also of conceiving the world through a lens that he can comprehend. The things that are incomprehensible to him. Finding a way to reframe it to himself that's comprehensible. Sometimes that's serendipitous, like the thing with the underwear. And sometimes that's considered, but him saying something like “RANDOM is the Okita family's benefactor,” that's him reframing this thing into a thing that makes sense to him that he can then use that as a way of understanding the idea that he's grappling with or that he's struggling with and I really like that.

Shan

Absolutely.

Ben

You're gonna love that moment you get there, NiNi, because you just came through the Comica stuff where Makoto, like you mentioned, has his own way of contextualizing how he appreciates what people are doing. He went through the whole Comica experience, and he appreciated how passionate everybody was, and how diligent and organized they were— 

NiNi

—And how efficient they were.

Shan

—Yes.

Ben

Yeah, that was his big thing he took away.

Shan

He saw them through a workplace lens ‘cause that's what he knows, you know?

Ben

And there's this great moment when they come out of the RANDOM concert. He lets Mika go and hang out with her other friends, because Mika ends up hanging out with Daichi's mom and another older female fan who are having fun talking about their favorite boy group. He ends up reading about RANDOM. 

When he's still hanging around, Mika wasn't expecting him to wait around for her. They're walking home together. They're talking about the band. He's like, he's read some articles. He's read about them. He's talking about the band—

Shan

—He selected a bias!

Ben

He picked a bias! He's like, “I completely understand why you like Seojun. I found that article you mentioned where he told that story. It's a beautiful, touching story. But we were watching them on the stage. Did you notice that the other member noticed when the other guy tripped and he helped cover for him?

[Shan laughs]

“I really appreciate the teamwork and determination he showed in that moment. He really touched me in that moment.” And he had his own bias coming out of the concert! [laughs]

Shan 

And then they’re out there practicing the dance moves! I can't wait for you to get to that episode.

Ben

It's so great because… Like, Daichi says it early and it kind of throws Makoto off. He's like, “I don't have any hobbies.” He's like, “Your family is your hobby. Everything you do is for the benefit of your family. That's what you're most passionate about.” 

And so we get through this whole thing where we learned that Moe is passionate about manga, it’s what she loves it’s what gets her up every day. Mika is passionate about RANDOM. It's what helps motivate her day in and day out. She gets this really great moment where she gets mad at her family for not appreciating the food she's doing, because she wanted to share a recipe that had won a contest with them. Nobody checked the fucking group chat. And everybody was up in their asses about their own shit that night. Nobody congratulated her, said anything nice about her food. And she went the fuck off on them and they all deserve that ass whooping.

We go on this long journey with these characters of understanding who they are and rebuilding their relationships with each other in a way that is so beautiful. This is great.

01:36:49 - Ossan no Pants: Furuike and That Fucking Guy

Ben

There's even in the show where an older version of Makoto shows up, like one of Makoto's seniors who has been displaced from one team because of being rude and sexually harassing women there. I don't think he was touching them inappropriately per se, but just his general demeanor was deeply offensive. 

And so he gets reassigned to their team. Makoto is able to reach through to him in a really great moment where they go and solve a major work problem together the way guys like them used to solve problems. And it's a way in for him to talk about how “That's not how the young people operate now. And your information and the way you operate is good and we should teach them. But also we got to open up to them too." What's so great is, like, Makoto is kind of an idiot. He's not mean-spirited, but he's doing irritating and annoying and harmful things to the people he cares about. 

Daichi's dad is the worst kind of bigot because he is well-read. He has heard all of the arguments. He does understand that his son is suffering, and is willfully choosing to exacerbate that dynamic because he thinks he knows what's best for his son. But it's not really for the benefit of his son. It's about power and control.

One of the things that often frustrates us when we talk about these shows, particularly Shan. Hello, Shan—is these shows often like to rush reconciliations and apologies so that we end with a moment where the whole family’s come back together through the power of love and teamwork or whatever. And Daichi's dad does not get to have that moment. He is excluded from the final triumphant moment of the series because he is too bigoted to let go of his own ego.

Shan

It was a thing of beauty to see a parent who did not deserve to be forgiven unforgiven and excused from the table.

[Ben laughs]

It is everything that I have ever wanted from a drama. I was so fucking happy, because most of the time in these shows, they just insist on pushing toward this unearned redemption that is so unsatisfying. And this show just said no, because you know what? This show has a really clear thesis. And it came through, I think, in a final speech from of all people, Furuike: You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to know everything, but you do have to care about hurting people. And you do have to try to do better. And you do have to be willing to learn and update yourself. 

And what he says in this final speech in the workplace is, “I'm older than all of you. And I have learned that going through life and all of its good and bad can really desensitize you to the things happening around you, to the experiences of others. And if you let yourself become desensitized, you will hurt other people. And if you can just try really hard to not get used to yourself, and to keep learning and to keep trying, you will do better and you will enjoy life more.” And that is really this show's thesis. 

And Daichi's father doesn't do that. He's not open to learning. He doesn't care ultimately that he's harming other people, because he thinks he's right and that's all that matters to him. And so he doesn't get forgiven. And he doesn't get to sit at the fucking family table at the end of the show and play happy families with everybody. He's not invited to the wedding. If he wants back in, he's going to have to try, and he's going to have to care. And he is going to have to put in the effort to update his thinking and make amends with his son and with the people his son loves. Until he does that, he is not welcome and he is not part of the family. 

And I just loved that the show was so firm on this. There is room for redemption for everyone, everyone deserves the chance to do better. But if you don't put in that work, you don't get to sit with us. Period.

Ben

PERIOD!

Shan

PERIOD!

Ben

[laughs] Let me tell you, NiNi, you will lose your mind when you get to this scene. I am still thinking about it. I was screaming to Twig for three hours about this scene because the Okita family is in this very fancy restaurant wearing their jackets and stuff and they start removing their jackets like fucking Care Bears revealing their stomachs and blasting this man with the hearts of everything that they love.

Shan

It was like the family Care Bear stare. Like they all pulled back their shirts and the beams came out of their chest. [laughs]

NiNi

I'm so mad at y 'all for a Care Bear stare. I haven't thought about the Care Bears in at least, at least two decades—

Ben

—30 years? [laughs]

NiNi

I can't stand y 'all ass. I can't stand y 'all ass!

Ben

Kakeru is like, “Yes, I'm wearing women's clothes.” And then Moe was like, “And I love to draw fujo art, fuck you.” And Mika's like—

Shan

—She like pulls back, she's got a t-shirt with like two people kissing on—

Ben

—she's like, “I'm old and I get to like idols too.” And then he looks over at Makoto's like, “At least you're the only normal one.” He's like, “No, I'm not. I’m the most fucking crazy person here. I love my family. I love all of these people. And I was asked to be here as the matchmaker for Daichi. And I'm going to tell you to your face that you are a bigot and an asshole.” 

He asked that man the most important question: “You are correct that the world is harsh, and that it's not going to be nice to our kids. But it doesn't matter if they're queer. They're going to be made to feel awful and bad and weird and wrong for any number of reasons, whether it be Moe loving to draw fujo art, Kakeru wanting to wear the clothes that make him feel better, or Harunishi wanting to wear his b-suke-kun to work every day.” [laughs] 

For any number of reasons these kids are going to be made to feel wrong and unhappy. And that's one of the things the show makes clear. None of the older men in this show are happy at all. Not Makoto, not Daichi's divorced dad, not Furuike when he gets assigned to their team originally, and not multiple colleagues of theirs who get downsized over the course of the show. No one is happy. 

Everyone is being asked to present and conform for the sake of others in the society and everyone is miserable as a result. And the Okita family says, “No, we're going to prioritize our happiness in this family. I'm doing these things as a parent because I love my family and I want them to be happy. I don't want them to suffer for other people and be miserable like you.” And he asked that man directly, “If the whole world is lining up to be cruel to your son, why are you trying to cut to the front of the line to get the first lick in?”

And that man had no answer for that.

Shan

Man, that was so infuriating. This was what was so challenging about fighting him, why Makoto struggled a little bit, and why Daichi really struggled, was that he wasn't an in your face, loud, screaming bigot. He would espouse his bigoted ideas in the most calm, rational matter of fact way. And it would make the other characters second guess themselves. He wasn't talking as if he was being hateful. He was talking as if he was just being the rational one in the room and the rest of them needed to come back to reality. 

That can be very disarming, trying to deal with somebody when they're presenting what they're saying to you as if they're just talking common sense and you're the one who's offbase. I liked that representation of a kind of bigotry that can feel a lot more insidious than the more in your face stuff that we often see depicted in media.

Ben 

I was really happy with it because they showed through Makoto and Furuike that they aren't trying to be mean-spirited when they interact with people these ways. They're just deeply out of touch and deeply misinformed and they were taught poorly. The worst thing about Daichi's asshole of a father is he's the people who teaches people to be like that.

01:45:25 Ossan no Pants: Final Thoughts and Ratings

Ben

What really works with this too is, like, Kakeru can be a real bitch over the course of the show when he gets pissed off with people expecting things from him. But I really like that for all that he doesn't share interests with his father that much, in so many ways he is a lot like his dad and how he handles interactions with people. That was a really well done arc— 

Shan

And him continually recognizing that.

Ben

—that he and he starts to recognize too. Yeah.

Ben

The final scenes of the show are so earned. Makoto is like, “If the world is going to fight my kids, they're going to have to go through me!” 

Shan

Hell yeah!

Ben

—And he's flexing in the mirror. And then the kids are coming through the door of the bathroom, because it's the day of Daichi's wedding. And Moe dunks on him right away. She's like, “You're not going to get buff in three days, Dad. Move. We have things to do today.”

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Kakeru’s like, “Move.” He's like, “Don't look at me like this.” They're like, “Get out of here, Dad.” And he's like, “Oka-san, your children are bullying me!” [laughs]

Shan

It was so nice to see this family that in the beginning was so strained with each other, they would have never joked with him that way when the show started because they had no trust in him and they were tense around him all the time. And to see them come all the way to the other side of getting back to a normal dynamic where they can just make fun of their dad for being a dork. That's such a beautiful way to show that he has rebuilt that trust with his kids. They feel comfortable now to make fun of him when he's standing in front of the mirror in his dorky underwear making macho poses.

Ben

[laughs] We finally get to their wedding and Makoto is given this parental position as Daichi's stand-in father. And of course Makoto is a crying, slobbery mess at this wedding.

Shan

The way that he weeps over this relationship makes me laugh every single time. [laughs] He's just so happy for them. He's so invested.

Ben

The long and short of it is, this is a show that is super empathetic about the way internalized misogyny has done so much damage to all of us. And it wants to gently lead us down the path to learning to reconnect with the things we love and the people we love without feeling the need to enforce arbitrary norms that have only made everyone miserable.

And it earns that repeatedly in every single moment for 11 fantastic episodes.

Shan

Man, what a show.

NiNi

I look forward to watching the next eight.

Shan

I'm so excited for you to finish it, NiNi. You're gonna love it.

Ben

Alright, hot ratings. NiNi, can't rate it yet. Shan, rating.

Shan

I gave the show a 9.5. I love it deeply. I think it is excellent. I think everyone should watch it. My ratings are about execution and I think there were a couple—not really wobbles in the show—but a couple little bits that could have been smoother. There were a couple scenes that didn't quite carry off the PSAs in a way that sounded like natural dialogue.

Ben 

You're going to have to let go of that moment at the end of episode five.

Shan

I can't do it. It's sticking. [Ben and Shan laugh] There's one scene in particular that felt deeply inauthentic in the way a character— 

Ben

—You're so mean!

Shan

—I'm sorry, but it's true. In the way the character reacted to something, instead of reacting in a way that felt authentic for his character, he gave a very after-school special speech, which felt so wrong from a character perspective. It just sticks in my brain. 

And so it's not technically perfect, but it is spiritually perfect. It is emotionally perfect. I love this show so much and I want everyone to watch it. I am in the process of bullying my own family into getting a Plex media server so I can force them to watch it. I just, I think everybody should see this show.

Ben

I'm giving this show an 11.

Shan

Nice. He's just gonna make sure the average pulls it back up to 10. [laughs] Which I am fine with!

NiNi

You see, whenever, whenever Ben does this and he calls producer privilege, I just sit here and I go mm okay. Because he's always on me about it.

Shan

Okay, I see how it is.

NiNi

Okay, have your 11, sir. Have your 11.

Ben

This is one of my favorite shows of all time. We've made a lot of memes on this podcast about my repeated mentioning of What Did You Eat Yesterday? or random diatribes about how New Siwaj could make good work if he wanted to make good work. 

Shan

Oh boy.

Ben

But this is, this was probably one of the most enjoyable experiences I've had with TV itself in a really long time. This was the kind of really homey and welcoming drama that I have really needed to believe in TV as a medium again.

I loved watching the show and I loved talking about this show with our friends the whole way through. This is the kind of drama that I feel determined to show to people

So, it gets a 10 from me, from The Conversation.

I am desperately begging you to go watch it. And then tell us how you feel about it.

01:51:18 - Importance of Variety in Media Consumption

NiNi 

So what are the connection points between these two shows, other than the frame, obviously, which is that these are queer narratives that go outside of and beyond romance? 

Ben

I don't want to be harsh to our listeners who enjoy BL when I say this. Watching both of these shows is a real relief for me, because sometimes BL feels so detached from reality that it can feel kind of alien. I need to get a couple of queer dramas in me a year that are about the queer experience in a grounded way, or else I go insane.

I am really relieved that both of these shows came to us when they came to us. Because I need experiences like this to make BL worth it for me. These are the kinds of projects I only encounter because I'm in the BL space.

Shan 

I think what connects these shows for me is that they both really care about all of the characters involved in the story. They try to tell really full stories about a community or a family that does not just narrow down to one point that's about one person or one relationship. They really try to take a holistic look at the full world around our characters, and how all of them form relationships with each other and how the world around them informs those relationships and puts stressors on them. It's just, like, a really complete immersion in both of these shows into a place and a way of living and a way of being that can sometimes feel missing in some of the other things that we watch and discuss on here. 

It's really refreshing to watch stuff like this sometimes. I think any healthy media diet requires some variety, requires stepping out of the same formula that you are used to in the media that you consume. What really matters to me about these shows in the context of this podcast where we discuss queer works, is that it really takes queer reality very seriously. And it roots its story, both of these shows, in a very close-to-realistic version of what it would mean to hold these identities in the world that we actually live in. When we are often watching shows that are in a bubble that don't deal with those realities, it's important to dip into that every once in a while. 

And, this is not a homework assignment, either of these shows. They're beautiful dramas. They are joyful. They are fun to watch. They are touching. Just because they have heavy themes and because you learn a lot doesn't mean that they're not also incredibly entertaining shows.

NiNi

For me, what I get out of being in this particular space and shows like these. I was calculating today. I am actually in a relationship maybe about once a decade, but I am living in the world all the rest of the time. While romance for me is…not exactly an escape—there are escapist elements to romance for me. I find a lot of fascination in different aspects of romance. I live in the world all of the time. And so getting into shows that are in the world, that are focused on things that I have much more of a day-to-day connection to than romance. Occasionally it's just fun to sit there. It's good and enjoyable and it feels good inside to sit in. You feel a little bit of coming home about it. And that's where I'm sitting with these two shows so far. Every so often I do need to watch something that isn't a romance, and I like when it's good.

These two are really good. 

Ben 

I gotta say that, too. Like, no disrespect to a lot of the work that we talk about on this podcast. We watch a lot of shows that are flawed in one way or another. And it's not for a lack of effort from the people making them. But every now and then, it's really helpful to watch a really, really good show or a really fucking good movie, and be like, damn, that was something else. It can be really inspiring and it can help keep you grounded.

You need to balance your media diet. You have got to not just watch romance. It will overly flavor your taste, and you're not gonna notice when the creators are playing with things outside of romance. You got to...expand your horizons, because the more types of stories you encounter, the more you'll be able to enjoy the stories that you love the most. It's good for you to watch something other than BL.

NiNi 

And with that, that is going to wrap us up on episode one of our fall season. Dun-da-da-dun!

Shan

Wow.

Ben 

I'm really glad we're starting on a high note because BOY was summer rough! Ha ha! Shit!

NiNi

I just want to point out we just at the end of the summer had our 50th episode. So this is our 51st and this is our 8th season. We are rounding out into almost two years of doing this show. We're going to have some thoughts about that as we wind down.

With that, we out. Say bye to the people, Shan.

Shan

Bye, people.

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

[bumblebeeappletree]

✅ Making cities resilient to floods

About 44% of all disaster events around the world are flood-related.

In our new explainer episode, we show how ‘sponging’ cities can help them overcome the challenge of flooding while strengthening the local ecology, and boosting the economic and social well-being of residents.

In this episode, you will learn:

🟡 What a sponge city is (and how it works)

🟡 The benefits of ‘sponging’ cities (beyond flood-resilience)

🟡 Projects that demonstrate the principles and benefits of a sponge city at various scales (and what we can learn from them)

🟡 Why developers should be in favour of sponge city initiatives (they can save millions in costs)

And much more!

💚 If you gain value from this conversation, we hope you will subscribe to the channel 💚

Thank you to Holcim Foundation for Sustainable Construction for supporting season 5 of Ecogradia.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Timestamps

00:00 Intro

01:43 What is a sponge city?

02:08 Features of a sponge city

04:16 Is 'sponging' expensive?

04:44 Benefits of a sponge city

08:19 The man who pioneered sponge cities

09:01 Yanweizhou Park | Jinhua, China

09:46 Why Bangkok and Jakarta are sinking

10:39 Tebet Eco Park | Jakarta, Indonesia

11:36 Chulalongkorn University Centenary Park | Bangkok, Thailand

12:13 Copenhagen's Cloudburst Management Plan

13:14 Sankt Kjelds Plads | Copenhagen, Denmark

14:06 How sponge cities can profit: Bishan-Ang Mo Kio Park | Singapore

15:46 How sponge cities can profit: Portland | USA

16:21 Outro

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This episode features the following projects:

Yanweizhou Park | Jinhua, China (2014)

Designed by Turenscape

Tebet Eco Park | Jakarta, Indonesia (2022)

Designed by SIURA Studio

Chulalongkorn University Centenary Park | Bangkok, Thailand (2017)

Designed by LANDPROCESS

Sankt Kjeld's Square & Bryggervangen | Copenhagen, Denmark (2019)

Designed by SLA

Bishan-Ang Mo Kio Park | Singapore (2012)

Designed by Henning Larsen

Also featuring:

Fish Tail Park | Nanchang, China (2022)

Designed by Turenscape

Benjakitti Park | Bangkok, Thailand (2022)

Designed by Turenscape + Arsomsilp Community and Environmental Architect

Hunter’s Point South Waterfront Park | New York City, USA (2018)

Designed by SWA/Balsley + Weiss/Manfredi in collaboration with Arup

Houtan Park | Shanghai, China (2010)

Designed by Turenscape

High Plains Environmental Center | Loveland, USA

Designed by Hauser Architects

Thammasat Urban Rooftop Farm | Bangkok, Thailand (2019)

Designed by LANDPROCESS

Khoo Teck Puat Hospital | Singapore (2010)

Designed by CPG Consultants in collaboration with RMJM Architecture

Shangrao Xinjiang Ecological Park | Shangrao, China

Designed by Turenscape

Telok Blangah Hill Park | Singapore

Interlace Apartments | Singapore (2013)

Designed by OMA in collaboration with RSP

Jiangsu—Victoria Sponge City Innovation Park | Kunshan, China

Designed by CRC for Water Sensitive Cities

Quzhou Luming Park | Quzhou, China (2015)

Designed by Turenscape

OCT OH BAY Retail Park | Shenzhen, China (2021)

Designed by Laguarda.Low Architects

Tanghe 'Red Ribbon' Park | Qinhuangdao, China (2007)

Designed by Turenscape

Sanya Mangrove Park | Sanya, China (2019)

Designed by Turenscape

----------------------------------------------------------------------

We are also available on

Spotify: https://open.spotify.c...

Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple...

Website

https://www.ecogradia....

Read about sustainable projects on

https://www.ecogradia....

Subscribe to our fortnightly newsletter

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No spamming here! :)

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Follow us on 🖱️

Instagram:   / ecogradia  

LinkedIn:   / ecogradia  

Twitter: https://x.com/Ecogradia

#Ecogradia #Sustainability #Architecture #SpongeCity #FloodproofCity #ResilientCity #FloodProofCity #GreenSpace

[sustainability, architecture, sponge city, green spaces, floodproof city, resilient city]

[mareastrorum]

Nein Again music for Episode 16: A Favor in Kind under the cut! They finally turned up the music, so there's a much better list this time.

Right at the start of the episode, the Exodar Walk 3 theme was playing behind the welcome and ad bit. The Exodar is a crashed ship (now city) in World of Warcraft, and there are 4 themes that replay in the background. The link below is timestamped to #3, but #2 is also very similar.

I had a heck of a time trying to ID the initial battle music with dramatic vocals. I think some of them may be unnamed tracks from Witcher 2 or Witcher III.

I'm fairly confident the one playing at about 40:00 is Conjunction of the Spheres or an extended version of it. The song immediately before it has similar motifs, so I'm still hunting around for it. This is one of the suite for the final questline of the game, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are numerous unnamed tracks meant to bridge the main themes. The song repeats around 1:01:00, so I think Matt had the group on repeat.

I'm fairly confident the song that follows is Tedd Deireadh, the Final Age, which is an instrumental version (without vocals).

At about 1:14:20, Matt replays the Exodar music (from the beginning of the episode) as Nott discovers the second book.

At 1:20:09 or so, Emhyr Var Emreis begins while Jester mends Caleb's new spellbook.

At 1:24:28, Forest Day 2 from World of Warcraft plays while the Nein split up loot. The timestamps in the description note other similar songs.

Immediately afterwards, one of the Zangarmarsh themes plays, though I had difficulty ID'ing the exact one. The link has a timestamp to a typical song for that region.

At 1:35:55, Matt plays Family Matters while the Nein discuss how to avoid handing the Magician's Judge over to the Gentleman. (Was that a hint about Jester...?)

I'm 90% sure the music playing during Fjord's dream is World of Warcraft music, but I was not able to ID the exact tracks. However, the theme that plays at 2:04:55 is the music when a WoW player has died and must return to their body from the Graveyard. It's been in the game since the beginning, and it shares some motifs with several Haunted, Cursed, and similar background tracks, though the chanting is unique to this one.

I heard Geralt's motif play at 2:24:55, but couldn't ID the song. It's very similar to the sound from A Nearly Peaceful Place, but that song used a woodwind, and the one in the stream had strings. It might have been from Witcher III, so I'll update if I locate it.

At 2:40:25, when the Gentleman joins the Nein, the Scarlet Raven tavern music plays. It's timestamped in the compilation below.

Right afterwards, at 2:42:55, Matt switches back to Witcher III for Another Round for Everyone. This normally plays during Gwent games in Witcher.

The next few songs are from the WoW Tavern compilation. First is Lion's Pride. I couldn't ID the second one because of the constant conversation, but Gallow's End begins at 2:49:17, then Pig and Whistle, then Stonefire.

At 3:01:38, Aen Seidhe begins. I had initially mistaken it for A Magic Cave because I couldn't hear the strumming strings, but then the vocals kicked in about a minute into the song.

I can't embed any additional videos, but there's a few more songs!

While Fjord is checking out the medical clinic, Beauclair at Night begins around 3:04:30. It's another unreleased Witcher III track, but this time from the Blood and Wine DLC.

Dwarven Stone Upon Dwarven Stone from the Witcher 2 soundtrack begins around 3:18:05, when Beau and Molly come down from their high on Skein. This is one of the few Witcher songs with a melody from an acoustic guitar. It's a long song, so it plays through that conversation, Yasha trying to learn about the conflicts at the border, checking the map, then Nott's day out as a "normal" halfling and sending post to Felderwin.

Immediately afterwards is Vergen by Night, another song from Witcher 2. It's nearly as long as the prior song, lasting through Caleb's awkward attempt to inspect the Beacon, his conversation with Nott, and Yasha's attempts to barter with Pumat.

At 3:33:00, one of the Forest Day themes from WoW (linked above in the Redridge Mountains compilation) plays as Beau goes to the Cobalt Soul and meets Zeenoth.

At 3:38:09, when Beau tells Dairon about the Xhorhasian spies, Matt switches to The Vagabond from Witcher III.

I'm pretty sure the choral music playing during the Beacon scene is from WoW, but I wasn't able to find it. There's very similar pieces for holy places (Moon Glade, Mount Hyjal, etc.), so I'm going through the zone music to see if I can track it down.

Emhyr Var Emreis replays at about 3:49:15, once Matt declines to tell the rest of the table what the Fragment of Possibility does.

Next is one of the background songs from the Blood and Wine DLC, but I couldn't get an exact ID. The motifs from The Slopes of the Blessure are present intermittently as the players discuss the mechanics of the Fragment, but I couldn't find the right song.

That's all I could manage this week. I ended up spending 8 hours watching the episode because I kept pausing to search. Hopefully the audio is this good every week!

[ringsreforged]

HELLO! How are we all feeling?

Well, we are ALL IN OUR FEELINGS after an incredible finale...which hurt us in many ways. We did have some criticisms, and decided to tackle those first before ending on a high. So, if you want to jump around, timestamps follow!

We start with our thoughts on the big Sauron and Galadriel scene (00:04:09) before concluding that much of our anxiety over how this was handled is to do with our disappointment over Galadriel's place in the show and her character arc (00:26:37). Our critique carries through as we talk through everything Rhun (00:43:32).

Our positivity bursts back into being, possibly surprisingly, when we get to Pelargir (00:49:51) and then Numenor (01:00:05). We get emotional over Durin III (01:10:30) and then tackle all the 'little elfy bits' (01:15:19). Finally, we discuss Adar with a slice of mental health + fandom (01:24:48) before finishing with our farewell to Celebrimbor (01:35:55).

We're aware that we started running out of time at the end, but if you're disappointed that we skipped any details...THE REFORGING IS COMING. Keep an eye on our socials, and we'll be back soon. Thank you all for coming on this ride with us.

Twitter - @RingsReforged

Instagram - @ringsreforged

Tumblr - @ringsreforged

Natalie - @Natalie_Crown

Paulina - @SapphiresOfWest

Or you can email us at ringsreforged@gmail.com

[rembrandts-neckerchief]

On the conclave scene

Okay, let’s preface this with a disclaimer: I am well aware that all of this could mean nothing. Let’s be honest, it probably does! All of this could just be Roger Hill-isms or caused by a non-permanent injury he acquired before filming instead of acting choices. You don’t need to read anything into this.

The thing about me is, though, that it’s my life’s calling to read more into things, so humour me with this. Let’s make something out of what I’ve found.

So yesterday I made a post about being pretty sure that Cyrus hesitated before climbing up on the wooden structure he held his speech on. I, of course, couldn’t just leave it at ‘pretty sure’, so I rewatched the scene and here’s what I found: He did! … Kinda.

In the video file I have, Cyrus’ first appearance is at 00:08:55, which is what I’ll be basing my timestamps on. This is after the Warriors walked through the crowd at the meeting and found their place. In this shot, he is standing on the ground. Direct contact with the pavement. Like all things should be.

After that, we get a full/wide (I actually can’t tell, forgive me) shot of him and the Riffs around him, showing the crowd in the background (00:09:19). Some interesting dialogue here is that two people, presumably Gramercy Riffs, encourage Cyrus, their lines being “Come on, Cyrus, we’re with you!” and “Go ahead, bro!”.

Cyrus then walks up onto the first platform, which is just a step up from the floor, and over to the ladder, where he hesitates (00:09:25). There, the camera perspective switches between Cyrus and the crowd a few times, which is just common practice (see action and reaction shots), but the next thing that happens is rather interesting: Cyrus blinks a lot while talking and his eyes flick over to the wooden structure once, an action that can be read as nervous. (I am of course aware that this could be Roger Hill’s personal movement relating to making up or remembering blocking, but let us stay in the world where all of these things are acting choices.)

A bit after that (00:10:01), Cyrus actually climbs the ladder. Now, let me tell you: I have no idea how most people climb ladders. I have joint problems and a visual disability, I wasn’t born to climb ladders. This didn’t stop me from noticing that he was way faster at pushing himself up with his right leg than the left, looking more braced on that.

Then, he clings to the ladder (00:10:04), not quite taking the last step. His arms are around the railing on his right side, turned to the crowd, as he starts talking again. The camera then goes to the audience, but when he takes his last step up (00:10:21), he readjusts his stance multiple times before getting settled (00:10:24), his hands staying braced against the handrails whenever he is not gesticulating.

The first time he is seen hands-free, arms up to encourage applause (00:10:46), he is also noticeably further back than in the last shot of him, remaining there for the entire duration of the speech until he is shot.

Also, it is interesting how he immediately starts to stand a bit slanted to the left-hand-side as soon as he is not gesturing (00:11:03), his left hand the first to arrive on the railing again, only standing up straight when gesturing which is expected from an orator. This could hint at this being a protective/relieving posture which he falls into as often as possible to stop pain, discomfort, or instability.

So, what did we figure out? It takes Cyrus one minute and 29 seconds to comfortably stand on the structure after he first shows up, he seems nervous and is encouraged by people to do it, and he seems to prefer bracing his left side. One can draw many conclusions from this, mine being pain or instability, but I encourage you to draw your own and tell me! I’d love to hear from you!

[stone-stars]

songs in c3e67: cyra (timestamps from the ad-free version. does not include the generic combat music. “a wizard’s tournament” is the recap song.)

Shadowfell - 14:05

In the Dark of Dusk - 19:53

Spearmint & Tea Leaves - 21:18

The Prodigal Sister - 25:39

The Fairy - 30:46

Frankie Vantasmo - 35:48

Doppelgangers - 39:02

Deadeye - 42:54, 45:14, and 47:01

A Friend for Life - 51:53

The Multiverse - 54:35, 55:10, 56:38, 1:00:21, and 1:00:59

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:04:07 and 1:08:23

A Memory - 1:09:29

When You Wish Upon a Stone - 1:13:25 (loops)

The Red Fen - 1:17:49

Deadeye - 1:19:41

Melora's Boon - 1:21:38, 1:23:05, and 1:24:52

The Purge - 1:26:05 (loops)

The Posse - 1:34:54

Unknown Tome - 1:39:45

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:50:08 and 1:52:40

A Fate Refused - 1:56:53

context for each song + notes under the cut!

Shadowfell - 14:05 - Going to find Cyra / Spotting her

In the Dark of Dusk - 19:53 - Cyra tells Callie her plan

Spearmint & Tea Leaves - 21:18 - Callie tells Cyra she loved her and was jealous of her / Cyra admits she was jealous of Callie and knew about their mom's ability

The Prodigal Sister - 25:39 - "Was it easier when I cried?" / Callie talks about their mom's execution / Cyra talks about calming young Callie / They hug

The Fairy - 30:46 - Callie calls Calder + Sol over to meet Cyra

Frankie Vantasmo - 35:48 - Cyra says Jovyre's courts have been after her

Doppelgangers - 39:02 - Cyra says Jovyre needs to die to take the crown

Deadeye - 42:54, 45:14, and 47:01 - Cyra explains her plan / Discussing it

A Friend for Life - 51:53 - Callie asks Cyra to fix her hair

The Multiverse - 54:35 and 55:10 - The ritual to talk to Swag

The Multiverse - 56:38 - Swag shows them the Great Hall's layout

The Multiverse - 1:00:21 and 1:00:59 - Exiting the swamp / Swag gives Sol dating advice

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:04:07 - Making dinner (searching for vampire eggs)

Ode to the Archipelago - 1:08:23 - Cyra makes food

A Memory - 1:09:29 - Cyra tells them how she made her crown

When You Wish Upon a Stone - 1:13:25 (loops) - Marigold comes down to meet them

The Red Fen - 1:17:49 - Flying around the Shadowfell / Vampires

Deadeye - 1:19:41 - Discussing the plan

Melora's Boon - 1:21:38 - Cyra says she's glad they're here

Melora's Boon - 1:23:05 - Cyra joins Duck Team (track jacket)

Melora's Boon - 1:24:52 - Preparing to Plane Shift

The Purge - 1:26:05 (loops) - Cyra and Marigold disappear / Forcecage + Fatebringer mages

The Posse - 1:34:54 - Sol frightens the Fatebringer mages

Unknown Tome - 1:39:45 - 6 fireballs

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:50:08 - Callie and Calder drop / Kenna and Sol prepare to heal them

Mee Maw's Burden - 1:52:40 - Calder nat 1 death save

A Fate Refused - 1:56:53 - Duck Team start to flee / jump into the water

Different Credits: "In the Dark of Dusk" is credited as "In the Dark of Dust" / "The Fairy" is credited as "Cable Car Ride" / "When You Wish Upon a Stone" is credited as "Alanis" / "Melora's Boon" is credited as "Fabric of Fate"

[nevermindirah]

Who talks to who, for how long and about what, in The Old Guard (2020) dir. Gina Prince Bythewood?

I got curious and so I watched the movie taking a lot of timestamp notes. way back three and a half years ago now, I watched this movie for the first time bc I like gritty action movies, and it's a really good one of those. I'm still obsessed with it all this time later because it's full to the brim with well-drawn characters who have compelling relationships with each other, and boy howdy does the data show it.

I was especially curious about who spends how much time alone together on screen, so I coded all the scenes with that in mind, and I found some really interesting patterns in the breakdown of scenes where just two characters talk, where one character is the sole focus, and when three characters talk.

the winners of course are Nile and Andy, our dual protagonists, who spend 10% of the movie's total runtime alone together. they also spend a lot of time with our dual friendly antagonists, Booker and Copley. scenes featuring combinations of just these four characters make up 40% of the total runtime.

Joe and Nicky show up less in this analysis because they're side characters who mostly appear in group scenes, but wow are they richly drawn side characters. they're key players in all but two scenes where four or more named characters talk.

read on for many numbers and much analysis of what it all means!

Andy Nile 0:12:20 Nile Booker 0:06:00 Andy Booker Copley 0:05:22 Andy Booker 0:05:01 Andy Nile Booker 0:04:56 Nile Copley 0:04:18 Nile alone 0:04:07 Andy alone 0:03:31

Andy Celeste 0:02:49 Merrick Copley 0:02:41 Joe Nicky 0:02:24 Nile Dizzy Jay 0:01:33 Andy Quynh 0:01:31 Andy Nile Merrick 0:00:52 Booker alone 0:00:32 Copley alone 0:00:28 Nicky Kozak 0:00:27 Booker Quynh 0:00:21 Copley Keane 0:00:09

(the spreadsheet, if anyone's interested in digging deeper with me)

of the 12 min that our main characters are alone together on screen, almost fully half is super duper antagonistic:

4:26 is the kidnapping sequence

1:29 is their conversation outside after Nile's nightmare featuring the iconic "me and those three men in there will keep you safe" "like Quynh?"

and 7 seconds is Nile glaring daggers at Andy after walking over all those bodies in the church

the other half breaks down like this:

2:14 is them connecting over their mortal families — where Andy makes Nile give her phone back at the end

1:45 is Nile telling Andy she's not doing this, that she's going back to her family — Andy pushes with "we'd do the same for you" but then relents and gives Nile the car

50 seconds of them gearing up for the last segment of the fight — Nile tries to get Andy to wear a bulletproof vest, she jokes around with "is this gonna be like the last signal?" — it's operations-focused but there's a real warmth between them by this point in the movie (this scene starts at 1:41:45, just 13 min before the credits roll)

and 1:29 of Andy looking at Nile like she hung the moon (which, extremely valid and relatable!) and Nile saying that the time Andy's got left "you're gonna spend it with us"

Nile has an uninterrupted 4:18 sequence with Copley that speed runs the same general shape of her arc with Andy, hella antagonistic to teamwork, though the latter here is more of a professional camaraderie than the real warmth we see Nile develop for Andy.

in this context Nile's arc with Booker is remarkably different. their first scene alone together is 1:11 in total, intercut with Andy killing mercs elsewhere in the church, and it's sort of their only scene with friction between them. Booker keeps telling Nile to wait for the signal without explaining what that means, annoyingly continuing Andy's grand tradition of not fucking answering Nile's reasonable questions, ugh. though another way of framing this is of course that he's too busy packing her a change of clothes while showing off his tits for her. as I noted in a previous meta, the end of this sequence is the one time Booker lies to Nile (claiming he doesn't know who the mercs are when he has at least a basic idea, though we don't know for sure whether Copley involved him in this specific plan).

after this Nile and Booker have two more scenes alone together and they're both extended conversations: 3:14 for their conversation alone in the cave after Andy leaves, and 1:18 when Nile joins Booker on the balcony outside the bar. both of these conversations are remarkably intimate for how little these characters have interacted beforehand. remember, 6:02 total of Nile and Andy alone together with heavy animosity (Andy shot Nile in the head ffs!) before things between them started to warm up. granted, the conversation where they first start to warm to each other is right after Nile's cave scene with Booker and Andy's scene with Celeste, so an argument could be made that this was the point in the movie where Nile started to feel ready to open up to the other immortals generally and her first one-on-one conversation once she got there was with Booker before Andy. I'm not saying you have to ship them just because they get so close so quick, but the numbers sure do make it clear that us BoNers aren't making this shit up out of nowhere.

Nile and Booker's heart-to-heart in the mine is the third-longest one-on-one conversation in the whole movie — third after Andy kidnapping Nile and Nile's sequence with Copley, which are both heavy on action and exposition and antagonism, making this the longest intimate conversation in the movie. their other heart-to-heart, 1:18 on the balcony outside the pub, is on par with Joe and Nicky's 1:17 in the van.

there's also a 51 sec sequence during the Merrick tower fight where it intercuts pretty much equally between three subsets of the action: Andy going off on her own with an axe, Joe waiting for Nicky to wake up after that head shot, and Nile and Booker being drift compatible when Nile's gun jams. we're not making this shit up out of nowhere.

ok back to our blorbos in chief. we get 4:07 of Nile as the sole focus, and 3:31 of the same for Andy.

the sequence of Nile going through hell on base just because she fucking lived (laser eyes @ her squad forever) lasts 1:14 and includes a few lines from minor characters. we get 15 sec of her first dreaming of the others and waking up unmoored, then a 20 sec reprise with her nightmare of the first person she killed. the sequence of her driving away from Copley's then figuring out what the empty gun clip means is 48 sec. and then, one of the things that stood out to me the most in really digging into these numbers: just how frequently and for how long the camera lingers on Nile's face in this movie.

extended closeups of Nile with no dialogue and no montage:

10 seconds staring at the car she crushed, killing Merrick in the process but somehow not herself

36 seconds in the elevator

and a whopping 44 seconds of listening to Frank Ocean

that's fully 1 minute and thirty seconds of this movie's 2 hr 5 min credits-included runtime devoted exclusively to long takes of Nile Freeman's face.

Andy's sole-focus time is a little less tidy, because the majority of it isn't precisely focused on her like with Nile. we get 15 sec of her staring at her hand, realizing her immortality is gone. I could have coded all the pieces of the movie more granularly to find all the moments where we get Andy reaction shots, but I also could've done that with all of them and I'm but one humble spreadsheet lover, and it's more interesting to me that Gina primarily uses other kinds of film language to put us into Andy's perspective.

1:35 of her cutting through all those mercs in the church — other people are active in this scene, but they're not shown as people, and the horror of that is exactly the point, for the viewer, for Nile, and for Andy herself

41 sec of her voiceover at the opening of the movie, over clips of the kill floor scene

1 min of her moodily sitting in the car after the pharmacy and flashing back to Lykon's death

the Andy/Quynh flashback sequence that's a subset of Nicky and Joe narrating to Nile is 1:31, so counting that alongside this flashback here brings us to a total of 2:31 of Andy/Quynh(/Lykon) alone together screen time. almost precisely equal to Joe and Nicky's total 2:24 alone together.

further underlining Booker and Copley as our tritagonists, we get one scene of on-screen alone time for each of them: 32 seconds of Booker being drunk six months later and 28 seconds of Copley reacting to the kill floor footage. it's easy to focus on the Andy in a Union uniform element of this Copley scene, but a photo of his late wife is visible in almost every frame. I went back and double checked — only 3 sec of those 28 don't contain that photo of his wife displayed proudly between the kill floor footage and the Civil War photo, 3 sec of Copley in closeup. now that's what I call environmental storytelling.

we get almost exactly 5 min each with the sets Andy + Booker + Copley, Andy + Booker, and Andy + Nile + Booker. ABC and ANB conversations tend toward driving the plot and fleshing out detail about immortality, though a decent chunk of ANB in the "is this a Rodin?" part of the cave scene is Nile and Booker talking about following the money (their first moment of drift compatibility!) while Andy angsts nearby, and a decent chunk of ABC at Copley's place is Andy and Booker's heartbreaking "this is what you wanted" "not like this" exchange while Copley awkwardly hovers. just under half of Andy and Booker's 5:01 on screen alone together is about his betrayal, 2:13 across three scenes. the other half breaks out pretty evenly between them talking about Nile, making battle plans, and just being pals.

has any mid-budget gritty action movie ever done it better? even the infodumps are full of character and relationship details.

I also find it noteworthy that Booker and Copley are never alone together, and they never directly acknowledge anything about their relationship. we know from what they tell other characters that they've been in contact before the events of the movie, probably for some time in some detail. we know they worked together to ultimately enable the cartoon-villain antagonists to do their villainy. Copley is direct about how these results were absolutely not what he intended, and we can infer from Booker's behavior that he wasn't aiming for decades of medical torture either. but we get no information about how they feel about each other. now that I'm looking at it with this frame, it seems like the absence of information is itself a kind of telling — Booker and Copley maybe purposefully avoiding 1:1 contact, purposefully treating each other as mere acquaintances when others are around, because to do otherwise would be to look their guilt in the eye. oh shit I think I might have given myself a whole new meta idea on this tangent here: Copley and Booker as mirrors for each other.

disclaimer as we're nearing the end that there's inevitably going to be bias and error in something like this. I measured by seconds not milliseconds and I wasn't always precise about where I paused to note timestamps at scene changes. sometimes I included what ended up amounting to several seconds of establishing shots and sometimes I didn't. and there are a bunch of edge cases where there's more than one way to count who was an active part of which scenes, like for example:

I separated out Andy and Booker's opening motorcycle stalking and Don Quijote chat from the later part of what was probably just one scene in the script, where Booker talks to the hotel clerk while Andy interacts with tourists nearby

I included all as one Nile + Dizzy + Jay scene the sequence where Dizzy and Jay talk to each other about Nile before they go into the med tent and act shitty to her face about how Nile's still alive

I counted as Copley + Merrick the conversation in the car where Keane and Kozak are present and react on camera but don't have lines per se

similarly I counted as Andy + Booker the "she wants to talk to her family" exchange after Nile and Nicky leave the dinner table; Joe's still sitting there next to them but he doesn't say anything and the camera doesn't focus on him

I didn't try to delete the time where Andrei said/did stuff from the 4:26 Andy kidnaps Nile sequence but I did remove a Keane cut-away from a later Andy + Nile scene

so much has already been lovingly written about how well Joe and Nicky spend their short on-screen alone time and rightly so. I don't have anything new to add there so I'll take a moment instead to shout out to the 27 sec of Nicky telling Kozak to go fuck herself, and also the iconic Joe headbutting Merrick. fuck, this movie is so so good. every moment is a delight.

[idlingintheimpalapodcast]

New Episode Alert: “It’s A Verse Before I Know It.” Interview with compo67, SPN FanFic Author

Good god y'all. We're kicking 2025 off with a bang. Kasey got to fulfill a fandom dream this week by talking to the incredible @compo67!

Grab snacks cos it's a long one this week. But hell, how do you stay succinct when talking to someone with this kinda bibliography? If you've been around for more than 5 mins, chances are you've read something by Cal. They've got fic for every taste & so many of them are full verses in their own right.

And you gotta stick around to the end to hear Kasey's utter shock that a reference they were sure wasn't actually a reference really WAS! (I promise it will make sense when you listen lol)

Listen on Spotify Watch on Youtube:

Chapter Timestamps 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:52 - When did Cal get into Supernatural? 00:04:53 - Was there Supernatural bingeing? 00:06:46 - Cal’s intro to Supernatural was bumpy 00:10:27 - Is it Sam or Dean for Cal? 00:15:06 - Mystery Spot thoughts 00:21:20 - Some of Cal’s favorite characters 00:23:54 - Did Cal watch Supernatural to the very end? 00:35:12 - Does Cal have any canonical ships? 00:38:52 - When did Wincest click for Cal? 00:44:12 - When did Cal’s love of fanfiction begin? 00:47:46 - What came first, original fiction or fanfic? 00:51:33 - The Verse Virtuoso 00:58:34 - The Chicago Verse 01:01:16 - The richness and diversity of the Chicago neighborhood 01:02:08 - Has the show ending affected any of Cal’s story directions? 01:03:32 - The comfort of writing 01:06:17 - The breadth and bits of Chicago Verse 01:09:42 - Cal’s personal imprint on TCV 01:13:37 - It Takes Verse 01:20:19 - Big Bang Experiences 01:22:59 - Minutes Past Midnight Verse 01:24:42 - Voicing diversity and being inclusive in fiction 01:39:59 - Palo Alto Verse 01:46:46 - The ebb and flow of writing inspiration 01:50:21 - Deciding between Wincest or J2 01:52:47 - Fielding readers’ requests and making friends in fandom 01:54:59 - Have fic expectations changed in fandom? 01:58:30 - The highs and lows of the SPN fandom 02:01:16 - Does Cal have a favorite fic baby? 02:03:27 - The archiving of fanfic 02:05:52 - What writers does Cal fan over? 02:12:28 - Cal’s fanfic classic recs 02:14:09 - The Compo connection! 02:21:26 - Kasey’s last question 02:23:09 - The dino love comes full circle! 02:28:36 - Words of wisdom from Cal 02:35:49 - Final thoughts and Outro

[the-conversation-pod]

The Very Important Internet BL (VIIB) Awards 2024

AND WE'RE BACK

It's time for NiNi's and Ben's favorite annual tradition: our VIIB Awards! Come join us as we hand out awards for Acting, Ships, Immortal Technique, and Top Tings!

Then, stick around as we talk about our special class awards for queer works that don't necessarily qualify as QL.

We will include the Winner's List at the top of the transcript below (so scroll past it if you want to avoid spoilers).

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:00:55 - Introduction: It's Awards Season Once More 00:02:09 - Acting! 00:08:00 - Ships Ahoy! 00:16:31 - Immortal Technique 00:29:05 - Top Tings 00:41:43 - Special Class Awards 00:43:11 - Special Class: Honourable Mentions 00:47:36 - Special Class: Mark Pakin 6th Man Awards 00:51:13 - Special Class: Standout Queer Narratives 01:06:00 - Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

Winners’ List:

Rising Star: Aungpao Ochiris Suwanacheep (Dynamite, Cooking Crush; Khaopan, My Love Mix Up, TH)

Best Cast: Modi (Wei Qian), Kurt Huang (Wei Zhi Yuan), Tammy Lin (Wei Li Li), Kim Jae Hoon (San Pang) (Unknown, TW)

Best Pair: Tay Tawan Vihokratana (Karan) and New Thitipoom Techa-apaikhun (Achi) (Cherry Magic Thailand, TH)

Best Actor: Lee Tae Vin (Tae Myung Ha, Love for Love’s Sake, KR)

Best Ghost Ship: Mawin/Ton (23.5, TH)

Best Friendship: Three Must-eat-eers: Prem, Dynamite, Samsee (Cooking Crush, TH)

Best Side Ship: Fire/Dynamite (Cooking Crush, TH)

Best Main Ship: Shiba/Haruto (Doku Koi: Doku mo Sugireba Koi to Naru (Love Is A Poison), JP)

Best OST Song: “Camino” - Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo, KR (performed by Gogang, music and lyrics by Gogang and Jung Mijin)

Best Music: 4Minutes, TH (Banana Sound Studio, composer: Toy Terdsak Janpan, MS: Pimmata Patpibul, Jeerapat Jongkolsongkroh)

Best Production: Love For Love's Sake, KR (AD: Ha Ye Rim)

Best Original Story: Hwang Da Seul (Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo, KR)

Best Adapted Story: Toyama Erika (I Became the Star of a BL Drama, adapted from BL Drama no Shuen ni Narimashita by Suzuri Machi, JP)

Best Direction: 25 Ji, Akasaka de (At 25:00 In Akasaka), JP (Dir: Horie Takahiro and Kawasaki Ryo, DP: Hanamura Yasushi, Ed: Kitani Mizuki)

Best GL: Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna (She Loves to Cook and She Loves To Eat) (NHK, JP)

Best Pulp: Knock Knock, Boys! (Kongthup Production/WeTV, TH)

Best Romantic Comedy: Doku Koi: Doku mo Sugireba Koi to Naru (Love Is A Poison) (TBS, JP)

Best Romantic Drama: 25 Ji, Akasaka de (At 25:00 In Akasaka) (TV Tokyo, JP)

Best Genre Romance: Love For Love’s Sake (Wavve Studios, KR)

Show of the Year: Let Free The Curse Of Taekwondo (Studio Him Energetic Company, KR)

Honourable Mentions: 

7 Days Before Valentine (TH) - Experimental

Tadaima Okaeri and Twilight Out of Focus (JP) - Animated

6th Man Awards: 

Dome Jaruwat Cheawaram (Cooking Crush, Jack & Joker)

Title Kirati Puangmalee (We Are, Wandee Goodday, Kidnap)

Standout Queer Narratives: 

Ossan no Pantsu ga Nandatte Ii Janai ka (Don’t Care For An Old Man’s Underwear) (JP) - family drama

Marahuyo Project (PH) - community drama

Love In The Big City (KR) - slice of life drama

Kimi no Tsugu Kaori wa (Fragrance You Inherit) (JP) - family drama

Interview With the Vampire (US) - southern gothic drama

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation, the Queer Media And Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

I'm Ben, the media critic.

NiNi

I’m NiNi, the VIIBs queen.

Ben

And we are your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie who are sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

We’re here to talk queer film and dramas, with a special focus on Asian QL.

Ben

So if you like to dive deep into queer stories…

NiNi

If you like cracked out takes on art and commerce in queer media…

Ben

If you just enjoy simping for attractive people…

NiNi

We believe in simping!

Ben

Tune in!

00:00:55 - Introduction: It's Awards Season Once More

*trumpet fanfare*

Ben 

And we're back. It's time for our favorite annual tradition. It's time for the VIIB Awards.

NiNi 

Yes, we are here to discuss all the best things that we saw in 2024 and that you should watch, as well. We've got five main categories in the VIIB Awards. Acting, ships, immortal technique, top tings, and our special class awards.

Ben 

For those of you who are new to us, this is the Very Important Internet BL Awards. NiNi and I started our show on this and we will be handing out plates once again to our favorite boys, girls, and otherwise stellar performers.

Ben 

NiNi got deep into her cups before we started and she was late, so unfortunately I am also deep into my cups already.

NiNi

So we're just gonna have some fun and try to get through these as quickly as possible before we get blotto.

00:02:09 - Acting!

NiNi

Let's start with our acting awards.

The great thing about being an actor is that you're invited into people's worlds that you normally would never be invited into. People want to tell their stories, they want to be seen, they want to be understood. As an actor you just get to go on these incredible journeys that most people are never invited to or never have an opportunity to travel.

Mark Ruffalo

NiNi

And the first award is Rising Star. Our awardee for Rising Star this year is Aungpao Ochiris Suwanacheep, who played Dynamite in Cooking Crush and Khaopan in My Love Mix-Up. 

We love Aungpao on this podcast. We loved Dynamite. It was the first thing we ever saw him do, and we fell immediately in love with the character. And every time I've seen Aungpao since then this year, he has delivered. So I'm really looking forward to seeing what he does next. Very excited about him.

Ben 

I'm so excited for him. I thought he did a great job in both of his roles despite feelings I have about both shows. Congratulations, sir. We will be sending you a plate.

NiNi 

Did we ever decide what we're putting on these plates? We're going into the third year of the VIIB awards and we don't know what's going on these plates.

Ben 

It is clearly gonna be like two Caribbean mason jars full of like a fruity drink.

NiNi 

It’s gonna be brown liquor! [laughs] 

Ben 

Hell yeah.

NiNi 

Amazing. 

*xylophone sound*

Our next award is going to the Best Cast of the year, and this award is for the best ensemble performance, including individual performances, chemistry, and interplay.

Ben 

This is going to go to the cast of Unknown, including Modi–also known as Chris Chiu, Kurt Huang, Tammy Lin, and Kim Jae Hoon. 

This was really a special cast playing off a really complicated dynamic which takes place in-world over the course of years. So we had to watch them play maturing characters in ever-changing dynamics the whole time. Really stellar group performance from them and it resulted in some really standout individual scenes that are easy highlight reel footage.

NiNi 

They were the best cast that we saw this year in terms of the way that they gelled together and the individual performances. So congratulations, plate for you guys from Unknown.

What's our next award, Ben?

Ben 

Best Pair! Best Pair goes to the best couple performance, including individual performances, chemistry, and interplay between them. This is basically going to, because this is a romance show awards, the best couple that we saw from the acting pair this year.

NiNi 

Best Pair for 2024 is Tay Tawan Vihokratana and New Thitipoom Techaapaikhun playing Karan and Achi in Cherry Magic Thailand.

Cherry Magic Thailand was one of the best things that we saw last year, and Tay Tawan and New Thitipoom have been around for a really long time. They’ve been working together for about eight years, and every time they come back they're better and better and better, and I think that Cherry Magic Thailand was probably the best that I've ever seen them. I have not always been a New fan but he has shut my mouth lately, and I love Tay Tawan.

Best pair of the year.

Ben 

I was really impressed by them because taking over a work that is so beloved and having to perform characters that already have very strong, memorable performances is a really difficult task to do. And I think these two did a good job balancing our expectations of their dynamic based upon previous outings with meeting the demands of the work that they were adapting. That was an incredibly well done execution by both of them.

*xylophone sound*

NiNi 

Our final award in the acting category is our Best Actor, and that's for the Best Performance of the Year. Ben, who is our Best Actor for 2024?

Ben 

It's Lee Taevin for his role as Tae Myungha from Love for Love's Sake. 

Lee Taevin really wanted to take on a role like this, and he did such a great job playing the complex layers of darkness and difficulty that his character is carrying in this. It is hard to get too deep into the nuances of his performance without spoiling it for those who have not listened to our previous episode or watched the show. But in a year with some really, really strong performances within BL, the top performance goes to Lee Taevin.

NiNi 

He really stood out this year. I mean, we had a little bit of a hard time picking this one, but we landed up on him because Tae Myungha is such a visceral character. I felt everything that they wanted the character to have us feel. All the confusion, all the despair, I really, really felt the depth of his work.

Ben

Lee Taevin the veteran actor amongst the cast here, and he's the type of actor who clearly elevates other actors around them. That's a pretty important skill for him to have developed at his relatively young age. 

So congratulations, sir. Hope to see more of you next year.

00:08:00 - Ships Ahoy!

NiNi 

Moving on to our ships category.

Ben 

It's time for our SIMPY Awards! Let's go girls!

Hot Priest: Love is awful. It's awful, it's painful, it's frightening. It makes you doubt yourself, judge yourself, distance yourself from the other people in your life. It makes you selfish, makes you creepy, makes you obsessed with your hair, makes you cruel, makes you say and do things you never thought you would do.

Sister: There's something wrong with your priest.

Hot Priest: It's all any of us want and it's hell when we get there so no wonder it's something we don't want to do on our own. I was taught if we're born with love then life is about choosing the right place to put it. People talk about that a lot, it feeling right. When it feels right it's easy. But I'm not sure that's true. It takes strength to know what's right. Love isn't something that weak people do. Being a romantic takes a hell of a lot of hope. I think what they mean is when you find somebody that you love, it feels like hope.

Fleabag, Season 2 Episode 6

NiNi

I'm going to let Ben take it away with our first award in the ship category, which is the Best Ghost Ship. It should have happened and we should have seen it. So who is our best ghost ship of 2024?

Ben 

It's Mawin and Ton from 23.5.

This is how Euro can still win. We're gonna give him an award [NiNi laughs] because they should have let him kiss one of the twins in the last goddamn year or so.

NiNi 

He should have let him kiss both of the twins. He had the chance.

Ben 

We went with this one because there was an interesting narrative reason for them to have leaned into the tension that his character, Mawin, was developing with Ton, particularly because of his crush on a different character. In this case, more than any of them, they should have let them kiss…just a little bit.

NiNi 

Euro, we love you on this podcast. One of these days they will let you kiss a boy. I swear.

*xylophone sound*

Okay, moving on to the greatest of the ships, Best Friendship.

Ben 

This goes to our best besties of the year. This is not an award for the people who are the best at supporting the romantic outcomes for a couple. It is about the characters whose friendship itself is so critical to the function of these characters' lives that it in some ways challenges or even supersedes any of the romances that occur in the work. 

NiNi 

Our winners for Best Friendship go to the Three Must-eat-ers Prem, Dynamite, and Samsee from Cooking Crush, because without their friendship Cooking Crush does not work at all. It is probably more central to the story than the relationships between Prem and Ten and between Dynamite and Fire. They focus on each other and they care about each other and they're allowed to get angry at each other and when they're angry at each other they apologize for the stupid shit that they did.

Ben

We had two veteran actors who I love a lot playing Samsee and Prem with a newcomer in Dynamite. And I think it was really impressive to see the two veterans support the newcomer and create a beloved character as a result. 

This group has a real fight and breakdown in the show that challenges the core friendship itself. I found myself more moved by the resolution of the fight this friend group was having than I was any of the romantic challenges.

NiNi 

Congratulations to the Three Must-eat-ers. We will be sending you a plate.

*xylophone sound*

Ben 

On to Best Side Ship, NiNi's favorite award every goddamn year! [both laugh]

NiNi 

We decided this year that we were not gonna fight over this award. The best side ship goes to the secondary couple who best reinforce the themes of the primary couple's story.

Ben, you tell the people who has won.

Ben 

It's going to Fire and Dynamite. You thought I was done awarding Aungpao. [snickers]

NiNi 

We're never done awarding Aungpao.

Ben

You had this really interesting dynamic with Ten fighting his dad and Prem dealing with his own anxieties where on the opposite side you had Dynamite presenting himself as really forthright and open about what he is and Fire avoiding his mom. These two balanced out very well with their main couple of their show and it's not a surprise that the best side ship went to also the show with the best friendship because the character and relationship writing on this show was really stand out.

This was one of Neo's, not best known performances, but truly one of my favorites that he's done. I really liked what he did with Fire, especially coming off of playing Boston. That man is an incredibly talented actor and we are very lucky that he shows up so often for us.

NiNi 

Congratulations Fire and Dynamite, we will be sending you a plate.

Ben 

I just want everybody out there who thinks I hate GMMTV to know that, while I do have beef with them, I am not incapable of applauding good work when I see it.

*xylophone sound*

All right, Best Main Ship. We are in a romance genre. We're here for couples that we believe can make it. This always goes to the couple whose love story we actually buy into and believe. These are the people you return to. These are the ones you show people and they're like, what should I watch? These boys! Sit down!

NiNi, who is our best main ship of the year?

NiNi

Our Best Main Ship of the year is Shiba and Haruto from Love is a Poison, Japanese title Doku koi: Doku mo sugeriba koi to naru. 

The show was hilarious and had so much heart and Shiba and Haruto's relationship at the center of it all is really what pulled me in. The acting is amazing, the writing is amazing, this is a true battle couple (@lurkingshan). They got together and decided that they were going to stand shoulder to shoulder, back to back and fight off everybody who tried to come for them.

I believe in them. I believe that they'll last.

Ben 

This show has a fist bump involving rings that legit made me understand what it means to swoon. This show whipped ass! It may seem like an oddity show, ignore that part. Just go fucking watch it (@solitaryandwandering). 

This show understood all of the reservations the audience might have from their initial reaction to them and went out of their way to demolish them. This show was fucking fun and I really loved these two so much. I will be thinking about that man's fake posing during their photo opportunities. I'll be thinking about that towel sequence where he threw it on him in the onsen. Don't think I forgot! [NiNi laughs] These guys were great.

NiNi

They even got to have a yukata moment.

Ben 

They sure did! [snickers]

NiNi 

They fell in love so hard and it was delightful to watch.

Ben 

I just love when a couple fights for each other, especially when one of them can't.

NiNi 

My god. He squared up and then got his ass beat. And it was incredible. [both laugh]

No notes.

00:16:31 - Immortal Technique

Ben 

It's time to do some more traditional awards. We're moving on to Immortal Technique, where we talk about technical and production related awards.

This is one of my favorite sections every year because this is the one that rewards you for paying attention to details.

NiNi 

This is also the one where we basically talk about the people behind the scenes, the people whose names are in the credits but who don't get a lot of credit, and we always love to give that credit out on our show.

As a director I, I kind of, I, I have quite a good ability at—at the very beginning when we're first starting to write the screenplay—I have quite a good ability to imagine the film in my head. Like you know even the very first page of, of, of the script as we do it I can start to imagine the camera angles, the music, I can start to feel how the film's coming together and I sort of have this imaginary film starting to be put together and that's right back at the beginning. And uh, in this case we started this process about five or six years ago and then what happens during the course of the movie is that this this film that's playing in my head always gets modified because as you design the sets, you know then the sets that we've designed replace the ones that I originally sort of imagined and then as the actors come on board their faces put fit into the characters I imagined. And so my little internal movie is always changing and being updated so that, um, it's, it's you know it always ends up better. Everything, every time my film in my head gets changed it's, it's improving all the time because all these all these other people are coming on board and giving their input into it.

Peter Jackson, interviewed by Charlie Rose, 2002

NiNi

We're starting with Best OST Song, and this is for the song as recorded. The style or genre, does the song fit the mood of the show, composition and arrangement, production and performance, usage and listenability. Basically, is it a bop and do you think about it a lot? 

So Ben, what is our Best OST Song of the year?

Ben 

This was actually a pretty extensive discussion we had in the background about this one, but in the end, we are excited to award Camino from Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo, performed by Gogang, music and lyrics by Gogang and Jung Mi Jin.

NiNi 

Man, I love this song. Every time it came on at the beginning of an episode, you just felt yourself sinking into the place that the show wanted you to be. It starts off with this acapella harmonizing that just really got you into your feelings. And then a little bit of piano, a little bit of strings, It was very not flashy, but really effective. 

If you have not watched Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo, I don't know what you're waiting for. Listen to the song in context, then go listen to it out of context. It's a great song.

Ben 

I'm rewatching it right now with Emily. We just started the first episode and legit, the intro starts and she's like, it's one of those shows.

NiNi 

Exactly, puts you straight into the right place that you need to be in.

*xylophone sound*

Ben 

Our next award is for the Best Music. This is the use of music overall. Scoring, music supervision, music editing. It's all about where and how music is used throughout the entire production. As usual, we had a lot of feelings about this one. But in the end, NiNi, we decided to award...

NiNi 

4 Minutes. The composer is Toy Terdsak Janpan, music supervisors Pimmata Patpibul and Jeerapat Jongkolsongkroh and done by Banana Sound Studio.

4 Minutes, one thing that it did do well was everything around the production. And the music in particular was very evocative and very effective at setting mood. The show worked very effectively through the soundscape. It was well done. Kudos to them.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

On to Best Production! This is kind of a catch-all award goes into production design and art direction, set design and dressing, location choice, costuming and hair, makeup, and a little bit of sound design color grading and editing. This is about shows that do a good job with their world building, their aesthetic, and basically do they really capture the vibe.

NiNi 

Best Production this year goes to Love for Love's Sake, art director Ha Ye Rim.

Ben 

You've got a person who is essentially isekai'd into another world. Like he passes out in our world, wakes up inside of what feels like a video game. And they have to convey a lot of details about what's going on with the mechanics of the video game and all the ways that the world is behaving around him. None of this is very easy to do, particularly on a very short runtime. And they manage to give us all of the information and details we need without huge exposition dumps. And they do such a great job.

There are some key details, particularly the work they do with Tae Myungha's eyes and his hair in particular. This is one of those shows that really rewarded us as viewers for paying attention to more details than just what was happening in the subtitles or when the boys were at their prettiest smiling at each other. Paying attention was such an important part of really being able to embrace and understand this experience.

NiNi

It was incredibly impressive, the way that they built up the video game world and all the ways that the video game starts to glitch. It starts so subtly, you almost can't tell and then by the time it builds up you start thinking back to all the little things that showed up in the background that told you that the game was glitching. It is really serious attention to detail that they put into this show and for that we award them a plate.

*xylophone sound*

We're going to move on now to the writing awards, the first one is Best Original Story. So that is for premise, story, screenplay, stage directions, dialogue, character voice, all the things that go into writing an original story.

Ben 

This year's award goes to Hwang da Seul for Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. Welcome back, ma'am, and well deserved. 

My goodness gracious me. Good job, ma’am. This was one of the most stunning experiences we got to have this year. Once again, you were determined to make us love some boys and then break them up for a ridiculous amount of time and make us really root for them to get back together. And holy shit, you did a great job this time. This was honestly such an unexpected and really special experience. 

The reason why we award Original Story is a significant amount of BL is adapted. A lot of productions, for a lot of valid reasons, rely on adapting existing work that already has a fan base that's ready to support it again and advocate for it. It's always really impressive when someone does something original that manages to cut through the noise and become one of the most memorable things we may have ever watched in genre.

NiNi 

The writing of that confessional scene where Shin Juyoung takes his cross off and puts his forehead on the wall and confesses through the wall. I mean, I don't know how somebody comes up with that, but I got goosebumps.

Ben 

There's the bit where Hyunho is going to Dohoe's house to get something. And Shin Juyoung shows up and we just see the three of them staring at each other in a hallway. There is not much dialogue in this sequence, but that is such a charged moment. Incredible stuff.

*xylophone sound*

NiNi 

So from original story, we're moving to the Best Adapted Story. This is for adaptation of a source work from another medium or another culture. 

Ben, who wrote our best adapted story?

Ben 

Toyama Erika for I Became the Star of a BL Drama, adapted from BL drama no shuen ni narimashita by Suzuri Machi. 

This was the first thing we watched on New Year's Eve into New Year's. This was the show that set the standard of the year for me. This show was legitimately funny. In a really short runtime, they captured the total essence of the story. 

What a solid experience to start the year. And good news, gays, theys, and thems—it’s getting a sequel. [snickers]

NiNi 

[laughs] We are. We are. I'm so excited about that.

Congratulations to Toyama Erika, who wrote, I'm sorry, the best line of the year when the writer of the drama within the drama says, “We will drown the audience in the BL goodness.”

Ben 

That line stands alongside “Every fujoshi has a dick in her heart.”

NiNi

Congratulations to our original story and adapted story writers, Hwang da Seul and Toyama Erika. We will be sending you plates.

*xylophone sound*

Our final technical award goes to Best Direction. This award is for overall vision, filmmaking style and visual impact, photography, cinematography, shot selection, and direction of actor movement and expression. This is usually awarded to the directing team, which usually consists of the director, the director of photography or the cinematographer, and the editor. 

Ben, which show had the best direction of 2024?

Ben 

It's going to 25 Ji, Akasaka de, AKA At 25:00 in Akasaka. Directed by Hori Takahiro and Kawasaki Rio, DP Hanamura Yasushi, and edited by Kitani Mizuki. 

We just awarded I Became the Main Role in a BL Drama. And then this show released and I was like, are we doing this again, but moody? And they said, we sure are! 

And we loved it. I cannot believe we got similar premises in the same year and both were standout productions of the year. I'm a sucker for actors playing actors. And I really loved the work that went into this particular show.

NiNi 

The way that the show plays with the camera, inside the show inside the show, the way the camera kind of zooms in to immerse you in the moment, and then pulls back out to show you how fake the moment is.  They really make an effort to blur that line between real and fake, which is a big theme in the show. So very well done.

Ben

My favorite section every year. BL is really silly sometimes and there's a wide range of quality. And I don't think it's always for a lack of effort on people's part. But damn is it really good to have some things that are good enough that you are willing to show it to some of your bougie friends to make them sit down and watch some fucking BL. Thank you to everyone.

NiNi 

Thank you to all of our Immortal Technique winners. You will be getting your plates in the mail if we ever get around to sending out these magical plates. [Ben laughs] But y'all did good and we love you.

00:29:05 - Top Tings

NiNi 

Let's move on to our top tings. All the best things that we saw this year.

Ben 

Historically we've awarded these on some genre lines, but primarily country lines. With the greater diversification of the genre and also the absence of certain countries for economic and political reasons, we have opted to not award based on countries anymore.

We are going to be awarding on genre-oriented categories only. With that being said, NiNi, take us in.

MC: Gentlemen, pray silence for the President of the Royal Society for Putting Things on Top of Other Things.

President: I thank you, gentlemen. The year has been a good one for the society. Our Members have put more things on top of other things than ever before. But I should warn you, this is no time for complacency now. There are still many things that are I cannot emphasize too strongly,  not on top of other things. I myself on my way here this evening saw a thing that was not on top of another thing in any way. Shame indeed. But we must not allow ourselves to become too despondent for we must never forget that if there was not one thing that was not on top of another thing, our society would be nothing more than a meaningless body of men gathered together for no good purpose. 

Monty Python, The Royal Society for Putting Things On Top Of Other Things

NiNi 

We're going to start with the Best GL. Well, there's no competition really in 2024.

Ben 

It is Tsukuritai Onna to Tabetai Onna, AKA She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat from NHK in Japan. 

NHK really delivered for us and I was so relieved when they actually came back to continue the She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat story. Because after the first 10 episodes, we were not finished.

The ongoing exploration of queerness and relationships between women in the modern era was just so excellent in this show. It had adult women of various ages interacting with each other across those age lines and trying to support each other in meaningful ways. And we got really great development on the core relationship.

There was a lot of new GL this year and I'm looking forward to some more projects and I hope we have a wider field to choose from next year. But this is unequivocally our winner of the year. Nobody can compete with the chosen family scene. It's over for everyone else. I'm sorry.

NiNi 

I love the way that they expanded the show, expanded the cast to bring in somebody new moving into the apartment building, to bring in Nomoto's internet friend that she turned into a real friend. Really expanding the world and getting more into the relationships between all of these characters, all of these amazing women. I love it so much. It's the best GL that we watched this year.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

Our next award goes to the Best Pulp for shows with a small budget that have a big impact. It's very hard sometimes when you're working on tiny budgets to say big things. And it's really impressive when that show clearly has a strong creative handle on what it wants to do and what it wants to accomplish. It's easy to award the studios that have a lot of money and a big actor pool and can produce a lot of stuff. Something's probably gonna be good if you try often enough. It's always really cool when a small team comes out of nowhere and delivers one of the best things you saw this year. 

With that in mind, NiNi, who is our best pulp of the year?

NiNi 

Surprising absolutely no one, our best pulp of the year is Knock Knock Boys! by Kongthup Production and WeTV from Thailand. 

Knock Knock Boys! was an amazing pulp that used its small budget incredibly well. Some great acting, some sharp writing, just incredible all around. Took what they had and ran with it. I still think about Almond and Latte not having sex at the beach. I think that's one of the best scenes that I've seen this year. A great little show.

Ben

This show absolutely fucks. Go watch it!

NiNi 

Nothing more needs to be said.

Ben 

[laughs] Girl, I am halfway through this bottle. I need to slow down.

NiNi 

I'm so leaving that in. 

*xylophone sound*

Our next award goes to the Best Romantic Comedy. Live, love, laugh. I'm leaving that in as well. 

Ben, What's the funniest and most warmed we felt all year?

Ben 

This year's winner is Doku koi: Doku mo sugireba koi to naru AKA Love is a Poison. 

The show was just that funny consistently for 12 weeks. It's hard to be funny for 12 weeks. This show earned every single laugh it got. And they use their laughs to tell some really dirty jokes.

NiNi 

I just keep thinking about the succulents. [both laughs] The succulents making all those sighing noises. The succulents were one of the best things about this show and if you want to know what that means you should go watch it. It's an incredible show, incredibly funny. I laughed out loud multiple times. It's a delightful romantic comedy.

*xylophone sound*

Ben

Our next award goes to the Best Romantic Drama.

NiNi, who is our awardee for this year?

NiNi

Once again from Japan, the best romantic drama is 25 Ji, Akasaka de, At 25:00 in Akasaka by TV Tokyo. I am stuck on this show in a way that I did not expect to be when I watched it. Just the emotions involved between Hayama and Shirasaki and how long they've been going on and how tangled up they are because they are working together playing lovers and can't really disentangle real from fake.

Ben 

I really think about the way Niihara delivers “Asami-san” across the entire show. And I really feel like this show kicked into overdrive. I think it's around the end of episode four when Shirasaki is struggling with delivering the big confession scene in the drama they're recording within the show. The way we arrive at the end point of that, it's really one of the most effective episodes of television we got in BL this year.

NiNi 

I'm not gonna stop thinking about it ever, I think. Congratulations to 25 Ji, Akasaka de. You get a plate.

NiNi 

Moving on to the Best Genre Romance. This is for romance blended with sci-fi, fantasy, horror, action, and or mystery elements.

Ben 

This year's winner is Love for Love’s Sake from Wavve Studios.

It's really hard to do sci-fi well and give the audience an interesting relationship to sit with. Without spoilers, I really like that the audience has had a wide field of complex reactions to the end of this particular story. I think that that is a really strong indicator of how well the show explored the various things it wanted to do. It's really, really hard in sci-fi to do relationships that are meaningful because in sci-fi, it's more about the human condition and exploring complex ideas. The characters are more stand-ins for societal ideas that the story wants to pick at. 

This was an incredible job with a newcomer, no less, delivering on a really compelling and complex relationship. Man, I'm still thinking about that shoes moment.

NiNi 

My god.

Ben 

Hold on, I'm in my feelings.

NiNi 

The VIIB awards when Ben gets in his feelings. No, it was really so good.

Ben 

He shouted that man's name and he said run and then his shoes let off sparks and I screamed in my house. The scream I scrumpt!

NiNi

This is really a great one. One of the things about genre romances, it's really important for the genre elements to matter, for them to be integrally integrated into the story and the themes. That's one of the things that we look for in a good genre romance. 

Ben 

When Tae Myungha got the ability to see who Cha Yeowoon dislikes the most and he's going around and surveying the field, that hurt my feelings.

NiNi

My lord that was a moment to end moments.

Ben 

This really was an excellent show. This was not an easy decision for us, but this is why this show pushed ahead.

NiNi 

Congratulations to Love for Love's Sake. You get a plate.

*xylophone sound*

All right, Ben.

Ben 

It's time, baby! Show Of The Year!

NiNi

We are ready to award the best fucking thing we watched this year in QL.

Ben 

If you ain't watched fuck-all this year because you're too busy, you got too much else going on. If you only have time for one BL, please go watch our awardee, Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo from Studio Him Energetic Company.

It wasn't even close. I'm sorry to everybody else this year. [both laugh]

NiNi

It was not. It was not even close.

Ben

Look, last year I almost fucking murdered NiNi over La Pluie. [NiNi laughs] 

NiNi

I do remember. 

Ben

We met in person and I almost fucking killed her over the show.

NiNi

But this year it wasn't even a discussion, really. Obviously we enjoyed some other things, but one show really stood out and this was it. Hwang Da Seul is back. And she's killing the fucking game.

Ben 

We already spoke extensively about this show in an earlier episode, but we barely scratched the surface of everything we could have talked about in that show. That was a complete viewing experience. Not a moment of our time was wasted on extra bullshit. This was a stellar show and it is hands down head and shoulders above the other things we watched this year.

NiNi 

I just keep thinking about Dohoe asking Juyoung if he dressed up for him while he starts undressing him. Amazing show, incredible show. We can talk about it forever. 

Congratulations, Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo. You will get a plate. That's gonna wrap up our standard class awards.

00:41:43 - Special Class Awards

NiNi

Now we move into where Ben really gets to enjoy himself. Ben would not do the VIIB Awards if we did not do special class.

Ben 

Here's the background for the new people. When NiNi first approached me about doing a podcast together, she's like, let's start with an award show. Like it's the end of the year. Let's award the shows we really liked this year. And it was all like super queer cinema type stuff. And NiNi's like, okay, but I want to give BL shows awards. 

So we compromised and we put all of the queer shit whose primary goal was not to tell romantic stories overall into their own special class so we could highlight them. We thought this was a good compromise because BL is a romance genre, and the shows that I typically like to award here are not romances. But these are the shows that I support BL for. The market that enjoys BL has enough crossover with some of these types of queer dramas that it enables them to get made. So, it's time to hand out our special class awards so I can once again talk about all of my favorite things.

00:43:11 - Special Class: Honourable Mentions

Ben

Let's begin with our honorable mentions. These go to shows that we think contributed to the genre for any number of various ways.

And I want to say to all of you out there nervously waiting. Remember one thing. No matter what happens tonight, you're all winners. Because as you know, it is an honor just to be *wails* NOMINATED! 

I’m fine, fine, fine. 

Nathan Lane, 1995 Tony Awards

NiNi 

I wanted to highlight in the honorable mentions 7 Days Before Valentine. We talked about this one a little bit in one of our grab bags. This was a highly experimental piece that I really enjoyed and has surprisingly stuck with me. I still keep thinking about it. It's not BL exactly. It's kind of BL-ish. It's not, it's queer, it's not queer. It's very genre, it's also not genre. It's a little bit of everything when I described it in the grab bag, I described it as something that made me feel like I was sitting in a theater watching actors do an experimental play.

Ben 

It is from the same screenwriter/playwright/director who also gave us 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us. We wanted to highlight that Punnasak Sukee is still working.

NiNi 

It's very different kind of work but, I think, really worth watching. Our other honorable mentions come from Japan.

Ben 

It's time for the Anime Awards. Brother in the booth, play the sound!

*bright sparkle sound*

Ben 

There were about 10-odd anime projects that were BL or BL-adjacent that came out last year, only some of which were reasonably accessible to Westerners.

I want to highlight Tadaima, Okaeri and Twilight Out of Focus. Tadaima, Okaeri  is the best Omegaverse project that came out in this year. Wild time to be in BL. But Tadaima, Okaeri uses the convention of that genre to tell a story about a married gay couple with kids who are still growing their family, and it's really heartfelt. So many stories we watch are about guys getting together and the uphill challenges they fight to do that and whether or not we believe in them. This story was one hundred percent about that belief we had in them. These guys are together. They've already gone through their BL drama. We're watching them build a home. We're watching them raise their son and then their daughter.

This was a really unexpected and really incredible viewing experience. Omegaverse is not for everyone, but truly this was one of the standout narratives that I got to experience this year. I still think about this family at least once a week.

On the other end of the spectrum, Twilight Out of Focus was about a film club at a high school that allows us to explore three different relationships where in two of them, someone is already a known gay. This was a really special show that was unpacking a lot of BL presumptions. Studio Deen came back this year with Twilight Out of Focus. And it's continuing to ask the question in a context where a lot of people's first experiences with queer storytelling and queer identity is coming through BL, what responsibility does BL have to the boys and girls and other kids who are discovering themselves and BL is informing how they're going to interact with their potential partners? This show does this in a really elegant way without dunking on BL in the process. Also, the animation is gorgeous, truly.

Both of these are available on Crunchyroll. Please give them a chance.

00:47:36 - Special Class: Mark Pakin 6th Man Awards

NiNi 

We are moving on in our special class to the Sixth Man Award, or what we like to call the Mark Pakin Awards, because that's who we originally awarded this award to.

Interviewer: What was your preparation as sixth men? 

Jamal Crawford: You have to warm up different. Got my body…I knew I'd be cooling down, so I'm over…I didn't go to the bike, but I'll go to the hallway 'cause. I was stretching when I was on the bench. I was stretch off and I was mentally, more than anything, I would mentally put myself in the game before I got in the game. Oh, they're playing like this. They playing that pick and roll. He's sitting back right there. Okay, he's going for hands up. Oh, he's going for the left hands, okay. So I'm putting myself in, so I'm playing the game before I actually play the game. I'm like, you got more more. How much you see on my other plan? You like this, okay. You got to stick to it right here because I'm trying to send you left back to your right mother. This guy. That one guy is blitzing because he can get up the other guy. So I'm just watching different things, dude, and so I'm putting myself in the game, but I'm making my own adjustments. Before the play even happened.

Jamal Crawford, 3-time NBA 6th Man of the Year

NiNi

This award acknowledges the most valuable and versatile supporting actors of the year for on-screen and off-screen contributions. Our sixth man is somebody who can come on to a project, and just fire away, go right in. Basically, it's a gunslinger. It's coming off the bench and doing everything that needs to get done.

We've got two sixth man awards to hand out this year and I'm going to let Ben take the first one.

Ben

My award is going to Dome Jaruwat Cheawaram for his acting work in Cooking Crush as Samsee and for his composer work on Jack and Joker. 

Dome has been around BL for a very long time. I still listen to the song he sang for Until We Meet Again. This man has been in the streets with us for a long time. And I think he did a really fantastic job with the Samsee character. This man is always working. He is in the background somewhere doing something to entertain people. And we really wanted to acknowledge that this year.

So congratulations, sir. Thank you for all the work you do. And I really hope that people continue to appreciate your presence.

NiNi 

He is a great actor. He's a great musician, and he is one of our Sixth Men of the Year.

Our second Sixth Man Award this year is going to go to Title Kirati Puangmalee from We Are, Wandee Goodday, and Kidnap. He's been around and he continues to be around. And this year he gave us three very different performances.

Ben 

He's been with us as early as Love By Chance and he started with GMMTV for us on Be My Favorite, playing a heel there. Once Gunsmile left GMMTV, he stepped into that role to be the dude we hate. Good job, sir. You're doing a great job.

NiNi

This year he also played people that we liked, so great. He was one of the best parts of Kidnap because his character was entirely unhinged and nobody ever called him on it. Delightful. Every time he shows up, I know I'm going to have a good time. He is a good, solid actor, he can show up and do whatever you need him to do. 

So congratulations to Title Kirati Puangmalee for being one of 2024's sixth men.

00:51:13 - Special Class: Standout Queer Narratives

NiNi

We are on to our final awards, our Standout Queer Narratives of the Year.

Talented, brilliant, incredible, amazing, showstopping, spectacular. Never the same. Totally unique. Completely not ever been done before. Unafraid to reference or not reference. Put It in a blender. Shit on it. Vomit on it. Eat it. Give birth to it. 

Lady Gaga

NiNi

These awards acknowledge queer drama works that are not primarily romances.

Ben 

We're going to be talking about five different shows this year. Ossan no pantsu ga nandatte iijanaika!, aka Don't Care for an Old Man's Underwear from Japan, a family drama. We're going to be talking about Marahuyo Project from the Philippines, a community drama. We're going to be discussing Love in the Big City, a very complicated adult coming of age drama,Kimi no tsugu kaori wa, aka Fragrance You Inherit from Japan, a very interesting family drama. And finally, Interview with the Vampire Season 2, a Southern Gothic drama from the United States of all places.

NiNi 

We almost never talk about Western shows in standout queer narratives.

Ben 

That's how good that show is. That's how good it is.

NiNi 

Let's start there then.

Ben

Interview with the Vampire Season 2 continues this narrative. Louie and Claudia are in Europe and we're dealing with the fallout of their attempt to kill Lestat at the end of Season 1. What's so special about Season 2 is honestly, Jacob Anderson. I also want to give some special shout out to Delainey Hayles, who has to take over the role of Claudia in this season. And she does an incredible job. Assad Zaman and Eric Bogosian really step up in this season and play some really stellar stuff, and Emily would kill me if I didn't mention Ben Daniels’ work as Santiago. 

This is fundamentally a gay drama about unwell divorced people. And it remains one of the most compelling watches that I get to look forward to.

NiNi 

I have not watched this one yet. I'm working on cutting down my list this year by actually watching things. So this is on the list, definitely of things that I'm going to watch. It's been making too much noise for me to not watch it.

Ben 

I will say sincerely, as someone who really swoons for really strong actor chemistry and performances, if you had watched Interview, you would not have awarded Best Pair to Doku Koi.

NiNi 

It's standout queer narrative, they don't go into the BL parts.

Ben 

You all see why this award show works the way it does! [both laugh]

But sincerely, that's how good the two of them are. they're not really in a proper romance because they're so fucked up. [NiNi laughs] But goddamn, Jacob and Sam are the two men I look the most forward to playing queer characters. And this show has a complex lens on queerness over the course of centuries, which adds an incredible layer to the performance.

It's hard to do sequels to romantic stories. I loved the second season of Interview in many ways more than I loved the first season, but I would not have been able to enjoy the second season without the first season. That is truly what makes a second season really good, when it builds on what the first season did and elevates that to a whole new level; a really special experience this year. It is rare that I go out of my way to recommend Western Queer TV on this podcast. But in this particular case, I highly recommend Interview with the Vampire.

NiNi 

It's on my list and steadily climbing.

The next show on our standout queer narratives list is a show that we actually haven't talked about yet but will be talking about coming up soon. Fragrance You Inherit, Kimi no tsugu kaori wa from Japan, a family drama. 

Without getting too deep into it, which we are going to do on its own episode, Ben, just give the people a little taste of what Fragrance You Inherit is about.

Ben 

Fragrance You Inherit is about a single mom and her son. And it's about her meeting the son's new girlfriend, who happens to be the daughter of her college crush. The son's girlfriend is the spitting image of her mom, and this is fundamentally a show about really kind people trying to do right by each other as they navigate some unresolved feelings across two different generations. 

This is a show that could have gone a really ugly route, but I really liked that this was fundamentally a show about people trying to take care of each other. And it was a lot of fun watching a show where the primary stress comes from everyone being really polite about some very difficult things. We get to see an older lesbian who knows she's a lesbian but hasn't told her son, navigate the unresolved feelings she had for her closest female friend in college while their children pursue a really meaningful romance between them in a way that I think honors the desires and perspective of all of the characters involved. It's a really special experience and was a real surprise for us at the end of the year.

NiNi 

This is from Ishibashi Yuhuo who also did Our Dining Table, Tokyo in April Is…, I think, and a few other standout Japanese dramas that we've watched in the last few years. 

Ben 

There were not enough shots of shoes. I would not have known it was her.

NiNi 

[laughs] She does love shoes. 

This comes from a manga by Ogawa Maruni and it really surprised me. It's a GL but not a GL. It's about having built, after disappointment, having built really good, meaningful, happy lives, and then having that rocked a little bit by unresolved things from your past and where that takes you. It's also about parents and children. It's also about being honest with people in your life and how not being honest with them can lead to a lot of stress and anxiety. It is a great show. We will be talking about in a lot more detail coming up in a subsequent episode, but we wanted to award it a Standout Queer Narrative Award.

Ben 

We already discussed Love in the Big City in an earlier episode, so we will not go on at length about it here. But we are once again stating for the official record of the VIIB Awards, that this is honestly the show not to miss this year. There is so much that went into getting this show even made.

The entire experience we get with Go Young across his 20s and four difficult periods of his life is honestly one of the most meaningful queer experiences I got to have in communion with other people in the last couple of years. Everything about reading Love in the Big City and watching Love in the Big City is one of the most memorable experiences I've had with queer media in a long time. And I cannot overstate how good this show is and how significant the existence of the show is. 

This show for many ways fills the same sort of place as Moonlight in my queer cinema taste in viewing. I can't really chat with a queer cinephile who hasn't watched Moonlight, and Love in the Big City  is very quickly becoming one of those things. If you haven't watched Love in the Big City do not talk to me. 

Watch this one, for fuck's sake! It's that good. You owe it to yourself to get this into your psyche.

NiNi 

We talked about this show for maybe close to an hour and a half of pre-edit time and we barely scratched the surface. Since our episode went out, we have been continuing to talk about this show and finding new things to delve into. We are not going to talk about it forever, but we could. Watch it, it's worth everything, and it is one of our standout queer narratives of the year.

Our next standout queer narrative is Marahuyo Project from the Philippines. Thank god JP Habac came back this year. I was starting to lose hope.

Ben 

I'm so glad that ANIMA Studios is still in it. And I'm so glad that they came back with a project like this. It felt really special to me in a year where I found myself really struggling to connect with youth queer storytelling, this show said it was LGBTQIA +, and it meant that with its whole fucking heart. And it put its whole ass on the line to tell the stories that it wanted to tell. This was a great viewing experience. And if you care about queer art, this show is available for free on YouTube. Please go give them some support.

NiNi 

I just can't stop thinking about the back of Archie's neck.

Ben 

Mmhmm. And about Adrian Lindayag and everything that he does for queer activism in the Philippines, and I'm so glad that he got to play King.

NiNi 

Amazing show, amazing music, amazing writing, amazing direction. Oh my god, King's fourth wall breaks. Amazing. It was just such a good show with a lot of heart, a lot of real deep complex feelings to delve into.

Ben 

The funniest thing about dealing with the VIIB Awards is, like, each one of these shows would have decimated other categories it was in. Like, Marahuyo Project would have decimated Best Music. It would have been no contest. 

NiNi 

It really would have, it really would have won best music.

Ben 

I almost fought for it. I was like, I don't care. I'm giving it to them anyway. They're like dragging me off stage so I–

NiNi 

[laughs] Shhh, come on, come on, come on. No, shhh, it's time to go to bed, come on.

Ben 

We would have given Love in the Big City show of the year. Interview, if everybody else had watched it, would have definitely won genre romance, flat out. Like, that's how good all of these shows are.

NiNi 

But ultimately they are not romances.

Ben

But that's the point. [snickers]

Our last show is Don't Care For an Old Man's Underwear. We talked about this show at length earlier. This was so spectacular. This was a show where our primary character is an ignorant, misogynist, middle-aged man, and we were rooting for this man very early on in this show. And we loved him by the end of it. This show is so aspirational in a way that even some of our BLs can't really stand up to. Like this show believes that misogynistic old men can do better and have meaningful, loving, supportive, and positive relationships with their families if they just listen to them a little bit more. Good job, everybody. Way to really shoot for the best outcome you could possibly get. 

This show really modeled what relationship rebuilding and healing could look like in a way that I think is really helpful. And I really liked that a very well-known and popular Japanese comedian was in the lead role of this. Dramas like this are often really important because you have people with clout they've earned well outside of the queer narrative space doing really meaningful work in it. And these are the kinds of projects that often reach a lot more people than the BL that we talk about. Like, I feel like more people are gonna have had a gay storytelling experience because of Interview with the Vampire, more than some of these BLs we've talked about on here by a long shot. And I think for the Japanese viewing audience, I think many of them would have probably engaged with Ossan no pantsu far more likely than they would have engaged with any of the BL we highlighted on this list earlier. 

Really important to highlight these kinds of projects because these are the projects that are useful for you to show your friends and family. If you're interested in sharing BL with them, these are very good starting points to get into the rest of the genre because they are not BL, but they do open people's minds up to viewing queer media from places they might not have normally expected to get that.

NiNi 

Well said and I just love Makoto's turns of phrase. I think about them a lot, saying that the idol that his wife likes is the Okita family benefactor.

Ben 

That is exactly where my head went, too. “So Random is the Okita family's benefactor. I understand.” [laughs]

NiNi 

It's such clever writing, the way that he recasts ideas into a way that he can engage with them in an attempt to understand the things that he doesn't understand. I really enjoy that the writing puts him into the role of doing that work.

All of the shows on these lists, of course, because it's our VIIB Awards, these are really the things that we loved watching. But I think I have a special place in my heart for Oppan.

01:06:00 - Outro

Ben

We talk about a lot of shows in this podcast. We highlight a lot of things. These are the things that will be talked about well beyond this year, or at least we hope they will. Please go watch them and be part of that conversation.

NiNi 

I think the other thing that the VIIB Awards forces us to do is even in a year that we're struggling a little bit, it reminds us that, no, actually there was a lot of good stuff, too.

So anyway, there we are. Those are our VIIB Awards. We're gonna put up our final awards listing as part of the transcript for this show. So look out for that when it comes out on Tumblr. But that's gonna be it from us. The 2024 VIIB Awards are over.

Ben

I'm currently showing Emily Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo and Love in the Big City at the same time.

NiNi 

My gosh, so you're giving her the exact same experience we had. Good job.

Ben 

I sure am! [laughs] Can you believe that we got both of these shows at the same time? Like, how did they think we were supposed to process both of these shows simultaneously?

NiNi 

They weren't thinking about us, bestie. They were just like, no, we're just going to put the things out. It's time.

Ben 

Incredible. I just love the idea that a bunch of new Korean viewers who might've become interested in QL following up on Love in the Big City had Let Free the Curse of Taekwondo right there being advertised at them. Like, that is so stellar.

NiNi

That was a very good four weeks.

That is going to wrap us up on the 2024 VIIB Awards. Oh my god guys, we're done for another year.

This year, let's see what's gonna happen. Is Ben gonna not watch in the summer so he doesn't get cranky? Stay tuned to find out.

Ben 

[laughs] No promises, no demands. Love is a battlefield.

NiNi 

Woo. We have drunk too much brown liquor, it is time to go. We out. 

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben 

Peace!

[midnight1nk]

this week's episode...

Mr Puzzles Clubhouse

[Spoilers below cut, modified images to timestamps]

Guys, I'm terrified. I can make as many predictions and theories to my heart's content but even I don't know what's in store for us.

If you guys have or haven't been on Twitter, Shadow made a post saying this:

Shadow: I feel very excited today for whatever reason, #smg4 community. What about all of you? ;)

Shadow, you can't say these things a few hours before the episode is released what am I supposed to THINK

(the following is my live-time reaction:)

it's incredibly funny that the show is poking fun at the people comparing the show and the showgrounds to mickey clubhouse (and of course, twitter being twitter *sigh*)

[00:17] I KNEW HE WAS GONNA THINK BACK TO THAT BATTLE

[00:25] it is kinda strange that he would hold a grudge against Melony, Saiko, and Karen but I guess you can argue that since they are part of the crew, Mr Puzzles would associate them for being part of his downfall. It's kinda how when you know this one bad person and then you see their friends and believe "oh, they must be bad too for them to be around this person". Not to say that is what everyone thinks, but it's what some people do. For Puzzles, it's an "everyone's to blame" kind of deal.

[00:36] :(

LOVE the new expressions OMG (couldn't get all of them, sorry)

also love that the episode included a lot of characters from underrated movies!!!

[01:39] designer clothes, huh? who's your tailor, Puzzles?

[02:28] holy shit, that is seriously a good model of mickey! whoever made it, props to them cuz he is so expressive (it's probably not from the crew but either way still props)

[02:57] you know didney is a complete dumpster fire right now when Mr Puzzles of all people doesn't want to join whatever mickey is up to

[03:51] (*reading this frame*) ...upside-down nose disease...eyebrowitis... pausing to read— OH FOR MEME'S SAKE

also don't think I didn't see bill cipher hidden on that contract

[03:59] Mr Puzzles: Well... A professional, such as myself, has... standards! Y'know? And looking at the state of your precious Didney... It's not worth my time.

DAMNNNNNN

[04:57] "It's a re-remake" ...puzzlevision 2? okay i'll stop

[05:20] wow how in every universe, mickey and minny are a lovey-dovey couple

[05:27] i know this has been a fact for a long time, but with the inside out 2 news coming to light, this really hits

(but also smg4:inside out??? 👀)

[05:50] WALL-E! EVE!! oh, it's one of my all-time favorite movies... wait... did they see us make wall-e AUs of smg34 and marware....

[06:26] i guess every entertainer has a rating label, huh...

[06:43] KINGDOM HEARTS MENTION

[07:02] "engine room" oh, so that's what the other side of that door. We solved that mystery, gang, pack it up!

[07:31] Mr Puzzles: "The most... important?" 👀HMMMMMMMMMM🤔

[08:00] GUY GUYS GUYS THE CARNIVAL OMGGGGG

[08:24] ATTENTION EVERYONE WE HAVE A CONFIRMED PARENT I REPEAT MR PUZZLES HAS A DAD

Okay so, Puzzles did have at least a parent back then. They were strolling by outside the park so it didn't seem Puzzles was taken there at all to have some fun. And his dad doesn't support his dream at all. now we don't know when exactly in Puzzles' past does this takes place, if he's in the early stages of his TV obsession, or if this was the event that pushed Little Puzzles to start his obsession.

Either way, because of this, Little Puzzles turned to the TV for guidance and inspiration. If his dad can't support his dream and without any friends, then all he has is himself... and the screen in front of him. Seeing the creativity shown on TV, the answer must be there somewhere... right?

[09:23] ...I should've seen this coming I SHOULD'VE

and yep, it's all because of his dad [*sad sigh*] damn Puzzles can't catch a break, huh.

also the red face is back!!! [*chanting*] eye of ra! eye of ra!

also also thank you Puzzles for getting rid of that rat

[10:27 - 55] Mr Puzzles: "Let's get to work!" [*theme from the "Friends on the Other Side" plays*]

😨

...how did...I literally said this in my "WOTFI 2024 Predictions Revisited" post:

Will we get goop!4? God, I wish. I was listening to "Friends on the Other Side" and I was just imagining scenarios of Mr Puzzles taking complete control of Four with the goo. If it doesn't happen for whatever reason, I'll write it myself.

...do they know...?

Ink, it's a didney villain song. it's just a coincidence.

Sure, maybe. I'm just gonna hide under my desk, just in case...

:) ← mentally unwell

[11:00] consider my gasted flabbered

I'm just waiting for Marty to come up on screen and be like "I too have a grudge for the SMG4 crew, let's work together"

[11:10 - 12] A crew? 😨 LEGGY?

[12:09 - 13:00] just this conversation between Meggy and Mr Puzzles is just *chef's kiss*

(why could I just imagine Puzzles having a similar conversation with Four?)

[13:33] [*hearing Meggy's screams*] 😨 mom I'm scared...

[13:48] Mr Puzzles: "Those fools won't see it coming..."

Me, a theorist: "Surprise me then. Do it. You won't."

[14:06] lastly, congrats to Fakerbingus for being featured at the credits 🎉

.・-: ✧ :--: ✧ :-・.

That... was an incredible episode! Wig? Snatched. Flabber? Gasted. Mom's? Spaghetti! The voice-acting, the bits of animation, the storytelling! 10/10 for me!

Mr Puzzles being TERRIFYING and UNHINGED, I LOVE IT! I feel horrible for Meggy, oh my god. We need to get the whole crew into therapy, like seriously. TRAUMA after TRAUMA. It's nice to see some more of Puzzles lore but I wish we had a little bit more, y'know? Having his dad being one of the catalysts of his troubles is good, but I think we need that extra push to show that yes, Little Puzzles really lost himself at such a young age. "This is what sent him over the edge of his obsession". I'm sure we're going to get a bit more in upcoming episodes but I suppose this is a start.

No Marty, which is surprising, and again, he might be in the next one. Like I said before in my previous theories, the two are likely to work together. "A businessman and an entertainer." And with Karen being in the picture for this year's WOTFI, there is still a chance!

Well, we might have to change some things, that the WOTFI carnival would take place in what is formerly Didney Worl and not the Showgrounds. With what I said in my last review, the whole "carnival coming to the Showgrounds" thing could literally mean the crew receiving those tickets and not take it in the literal sense. We can't rely on the posts on all social media platforms of the crew holding their ticket were taken at the same time frame as the episodes take place. For all we know, the previous episodes happened in the past, before those pictures were taken. WHICH could explain why Meggy wasn't in the picture. Lots to think about for sure... 🤔

Anyways, my dear fellows, it's time to get scared of what's about to come. New WOTFI rap, someone might get sacrificed. Goop!Four? I don't even know anymore. We're getting closer and closer to my predictions coming true, so let's hide under the blanket and hold on to our plushies i guess.

No website change, that I know of. I'm looking over all the recent posts from the people working on the show and they're just TEASING us at this point, THEY CAN'T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!!!

I don't even know what the next episode is going to be about, we would just have to wait and see.

but like seriously,

WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT EPISODE?

/pos

(but also scared?!?!?!)

[thepringlesofblood]

the summoning choreography chart

lads the autism got me again. we're in npmd lockdown.

I finally managed to figure out which little 'dance' belongs to each Lord In Black in "The Summoning" bc its hard to tell and it was bugging me. here's a vid for reference.

wiggly - space invaders lookin shit probably meant to be emblematic of his mouth tentacles (0:58, 1:52)

nibbly - licks his lollipop - when others do this they mime licking their hand or any other prop they're holding (1:06, 1:15)

blinky - makes a little triangle w his fingers and looks through it (when pokey does this he looks through his mask) in a sweeping left to right motion (his left). (1:12, 4:53)

tinky - both arms out front and then both arms back cross-country skiing vibes (4:58)

pokey - alternates one arm up one arm down giving drama, michael jackson, disco vibes (1:01, 1:09, 1:19, 3:01)

they each start 'out of the depths of hell and back' doing their own dance and then switch around doing each others dances until 'you summon us once, you summon us twice'

when I compared it to the digital ticket version and I was able to determine the exact order of each Lord's choreography

so i made a chart for yall who wanna learn the summoning choreography under the cut.

i need to sleep

glossary of dance moves and the shorthand i used for them.

im not a choreographer. i am bad at describing how people move in space. so. I used timestamps from the reference video from before. please god do not follow my mediocre descriptions - watch the people in the video do it and copy them.

W - Wiggly (0:58, 1:52)

N - Nibbly (1:06, 1:15)

B - Blinky (1:12, 4:53)

T - Tinky (4:58)

P - Pokey (1:01, 1:09, 1:19, 3:01)

SS - shoulder shimmy (1:21, 4:05, 5:12) (the lords in black-ah, the lords in black-ah)

JN - jerky nod (1:25, 2:26, 5:06) (the devil has won it can't be undone)

KK - karate kid (wax on/wax off) (2:29)

KKT - karate kid tree edition - there’s one wax on for each side and then they do a thing in the middle that looks kinda like a tree. Idk how else to describe it thats why i add timestamps. (5:00)

WW - whatever we want (2:57)

TR - tra la la la (the skip they do on Stephanie has got a gun) (4:31) (it's hard to see in this version, i highly recommend checking out the digital ticket version if possible. they show this move first in the proshot bc they focus entirely on steph for the next line, but it does go second in order behind KK - you can see jon start to do KK at the transition into chunk 5 in the ref video, and at the end of the chunk he's bent forward bc he just got done doing the bowing part at the end of TR (you can see pokey doing that like 3 seconds earlier after nibbly does the skipping part)

i divided the song into chunks based on when the singing/dancing starts & stops.

Chunk 1 (0:58-1:31)

Chunk 2 (1:52-2:00)

Chunk 3 (2:26-2:32)

Chunk 4 (2:57-3:04)

(they don't dance on 'we don't give a shit about your phone' but it's b/w these two chunks in case you're interested)

Chunk 5 (4:31-4:37)

Chunk 6 (4:53-end)

The dance changes every two lines-ish, and each time they all change together. they all do the same thing for chunks 3-5 so I only included it on the first one (Pokey)

each lord in black does each move a lil differently so don't sweat if you can't do it the exact same way as the one (1) example I was able to find of x move in the proshot lol

Pokey Chunk 1

P

W

N

B

P

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Chunk 2

P

W

Chunk 3

JN

KK

Chunk 4

WW

P

Chunk 5 (Stephanie has got a gun)

KK

TR

Chunk 6

P

W

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Nibbly Chunk 1

N

B

P

W

T

N

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Chunk 2

N

B

3-5 are the same Chunk 6

N

B

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Wiggly Chunk 1

W

T

N

B

P

W

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Chunk 2

W

T

3-5 same

Chunk 6

W

T

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Blinky Chunk 1

B

P

W

N

T

B

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Chunk 2

B

P

3-5 same

Chunk 6

B

P

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Tinky (curt ATE in this role lets be real)

Chunk 1

T

N

B

P

W

T

KKT

SS

JN

SS

Chunk 2

T

N

3-5 same

Chunk 6

T

P (ooh a break w tradition rip nibbly tho)

KKT

SS

JN

SS

[smuppetshowmovie]

date: March 5, 2023 caption: Shot breakdown (left) and shooting sequence (right) project: The Smuppet Show

I had a really good time planning this scene; it was more complicated than my usual. Hopefully folks find the planning stuff interesting!

Step 1: Figure out what source material I want to reference for the choreography in this musical number. I decided on a scene from the 1973 horror movie, Wicker Man. It is a weird and fascinating film! Decapitation is a big theme in this scene, so I figure Dirk would love it!

Step 2: Watch the scene over and over again, stopping and rewinding every few seconds until I have a complete description of each shot (who is in the shot, what are they doing, and how is the action framed by the camera).

Step 3: Translate this into a shot breakdown script. Timestamp each shot in seconds from the start of the clip. Recast each of the movie characters with a corresponding Smuppet Show character. Name the similar camera angles and use the same name for similar setups. Simplify the actions that are trivial for a group of human beings to achieve into something one or two puppeteers can do.

Step 4: Re-order the shot breakdown script into a shooting checklist. Try to minimize the number of camera set-ups but keep things sort of in order so it's not too hard to keep up with continuity. Note the desired length of each shot in seconds (but also keep the timestamp from the breakdown script so I know where it will fall in the sequence once it's edited together in order).

Transcript: Shot Breakdown Script (first page/first 18 seconds):

Wicker Man (1973) Chop! Chop! smuppet shot plan for magic dance scene

lineup for head chop: jake, aradia, john, jane, jade, kanaya, karkat, dirk, dave, fake dirk (and theoretically roxy next)

------------------------

lead in as smuppets start to enter the frame DIRK: What power? JAKE: The power of voodoo. DIRK: Who do? JAKE: You do! DIRK: Do what? JAKE: Remind me of the babe.

------------------------

0:00 wide & high aerial folks milling about a transportalizer circle surrounded by scalemates (the small yellow scalemate is where the line will form in the upper center/left area of frame), sword smuppets at the ready around the transportalizer, positioned across the bottom edge of frame

0:01 close & high overhead star sword smuppets in a circle, move from swords held upright in right hands, extend both arms out to the side (but behind the other guys)

0:02 med & eye-level looking at the circle from the side as they grab swords

you grab the nearby sword with your left hand (the nearby sword is held not by the guy to your immediate left but one guy further along to the left)

you bring the swords overhead towards the center

0:05 close & high (same as 0:01) overhead star swords loosely form the star, push them together to tighten up each person's right and left hands should now be a little crossed over

0:07 close face rxn Dirk in his mask - looks on

0:09 wide & high (same as 0:00) aerial Jake runs from edge of scalemate circle (upper left) towards transportalizer circle (lower right) and starts to duck as he nears it

0:11 close & eye-level chop cam Jake is facing the camera, he sticks his head up as they lower the swords then he ducks down and they raise them; we see Muppet Aradia run up and a line of folks behind her; cut away just as the swords start to lift on Muppet Aradia

0:18 close eye level stone inset close on Muppet Jane (and Muppet John in front of her) as they walk past the yellow scalemate (it's clear they are in line; this should be the scalemate the line passes closest by as the line goes to alchemiter circle; assume the line is forming right now)

Transcript: Shooting Checklist (first page / first 11 shots)

Wicker Man (1973) Chop! Chop! smuppet shot plan for magic dance scene

0:00 wide & high aerial folks milling about a transportalizer circle surrounded by scalemates (the small yellow scalemate is where the line will form in the upper center/left area of frame), sword smuppets at the ready around the transportalizer, positioned across the bottom edge of frame

0:09 wide & high (same as 0:00) Jake runs from edge of scalemate circle (upper left) towards transportalizer circle (lower right) and starts to duck as he nears the sword circle

0:19 wide & high (same as 0:00) Muppet John sticks his head through the sword circle lineup behind john is jane, jade, kanaya, karkat

0:53 wide & high (same as 0:00) continue as Muppet Roxy leads Fake Dirk to the line behind Dave lineup will be karkat, dirk, dave, fake dirk, roxy

------------------------

0:02 med & eye-level looking at the circle from the side as they grab the nearby sword with left hand (the nearby sword is held not by the guy to the immediate left but one guy further along to the left) and bring the swords overhead towards the center

------------------------

0:01 close & high overhead star sword smuppets in a circle, move from swords held upright in right hands, extend both arms out to the side (but behind the other guys)

0:05 close & high (same as 0:01) swords loosely form the star, push them together to tighten up each person's right and left hands should be a little crossed over

0:32 close & high (same as 0:01) raising the star, space is empty for the next person

0:34 close & high (same as 0:01) Muppet Jane steps into the center

1:05 close & high (a lot like 0:01 but continuous with 1:04) we follow Fake Dirk as he approaches the star

1:13 close & high (same as 0:01) Fake Dirk's head is getting chopped (spins as swords tighten) & falls