#tutbad

[4denthusiast]

In This Used To Be About Dungeons, one of the gods (Garos) is the god of symmetry, and it's mentioned that there's a picture called "Portrait of 20 Symmetries" which is a religious thing, described as "intensely symmetrical", meant to be contemplated by clerics in training to bring them closer to Garos, and it just struck me as a kind of strange number of symmetries to use, assuming they're counting symmetries in-character the same way as it's usually done in real life (as the order of the symmetry group).

For one thing, that's just not very many symmetries. Even just the platonic solids have more than that. A tetrahedron has 24, a cube or octahedron has 48, and a dodecahedron or icosahedron has 120. You can depict some of the 4D regular polytopes at least somewhat clearly as a 2D picture, and a 24-cell (my favourite for multiple reasons, but partially because of its interesting symmetries) has 1152 symmetries.

The other thing is that the order (size) of a finite group has a tendency to be a number with a lot of factors. This is illustrated in all of the numbers given above. Every positive integer has at least one group with that order, the cyclic group, but more divisible numbers tend to have more groups associated with them.

The only groups with 20 elements are the cyclic group C₂₀ (the symmetries of a 20-gon with no reflectional symmetry), C₁₀ × C₂ (the symmetries of a decagonal prism where the reflections within the plane of the decagon faces are disallowed) the dihedral group D₂₀ (the symmetries of a decagon, pentagonal prism or pentagonal antiprism), and the dicyclic group Dic₂₀ and semidirect product C₅ ⋊ C₄, neither of which (I'm reasonably sure) has a geometric representation in less than 4 dimensions*. Of these, all but the last two seem pretty boring. I guess if C₂₀ is depicted in the form C₅ × C₄, then the fact that that's isomorphic to C₂₀ makes it slightly more interesting, but not much. I would guess, for this reason, that Portrait of 20 Symmetries depicts either Dic₂₀ or C₅ ⋊ C₄ somehow, with the latter being a somewhat nicer option in my opinion.

*C₅ ⋊ C₄ is a subgroup of the symmetric group S₅, which is the group of symmetries of a 4D simplex, so if you just pick some arbitrary completely unsymmetrical 4D shape and a subgroup of the symmetries of the simplex isomorphic to C₅ ⋊ C₄, and combine together the shape's 20 images under thr group, then in general you'll get a shape whose symmetry group is C₅ ⋊ C₄.

[alexanderwales]

I finished Dungeon Meshi, after sitting on the last few episodes for too long. Overall I really loved it, but it had been recommended to me for a long time as being similar to This Used to be About Dungeons (which I wrote), and I keep trying to figure out whether these are surface similarities (they both features dungeon adventures, slice of life stuff, certain similarities in the main character) or deeper thematic similarities (found family, a focus on mundanity).

If there's a thematic core to Dungeon Meshi (at least for the first season), it's respecting ecosystems and treating yourself well. If there's a thematic core to This Used to be About Dungeons, it's that young person thing of figuring out who you are.

So to anyone who recommended Meshi to me because of the similarities, thanks, it was great. I just don't find it all that similar, except in some of the more cozy moments, and maybe some of the obsession with with mundanity of domestic life.

[thevenomrex]

TutbaD is well done slice of life, with the dungeon delves providing momentum.

I quite like it, but I don't know who to recommend it to.

Also, Mizuki's POV stresses me out, because of the whole 'social aggression as primary problem solving' she's got going on.

Did you ever start This used to be about Dungeons, it's finished now.

no i havent! i like what alexander wales writes, i liked worth the candle A LOT, but i wasnt hooked by the pitch of this used to be about diungeons.

i was aware of its ending because im in the alexander wales discord server, i am also aware that he is currently writing another story called thresholder, which also didnt hook me

[stinkybreath]

Love when fantasy authors do this, makes me laugh every time

[somewhere-in-the-dungeon]

Just calmly, slowly, go buy the book, and no one gets trapped in metafictional hell.

-Alexander Wales

Listen to me Wales metafictional hell is my kind of place and I will thank you not to besmirch its good name.

I would totally read a hundred thousand words of the TUTBAD crew reviewing WtC, and polish it off with a MICatWoA/Erogamer/OFtMG crossover.

[4denthusiast]

Lots of fantasy tropes get interpreted very differently in different settings, but I feel like this happens particularly much with the trope of dungeons, because there is no standard explanation for how they work that actually makes sense, so other authors are inspired to come up with their own takes. Some examples from media I've seen (possibly misremembered or misinterpreted):

This Used To Be About Dungeons: dungeons are a distinct magical phenomenon introduced into the world by the Editors (a group of somewhat incompetent litRPG-themed gods), possibly as a way to provide mortals with resources, or dissapate stray magic. If a party of up to 5 people enters one of the entrances spaced in a semi-regular grid throughout the world, a new mini-world (normally a series of rooms) is created until they leave. The monsters do not form a stable ecosystem because they are created ex nihilo along with the rest of the dungeon, and are only aggressive because the Editors made a mistake.

Mother of Learning: mana is generated deep underground, possibly by the heart of the dragon whose petrified body the entire planet is, and seeps up through a series of caves (the dragon's blood vessels). These caves have a higher mana concentration the deeper you go, supporting an ecosystem of increasingly dangerous and magical monsters, but also causing the formation of valuable crystallised mana deposits.

Worth the Candle: The Exclusionary Principle: kind of similar to TUTBAD (and by the same author), one of the many types of magic that exist in the setting is a spell whose effect is to create a dungeon. The caster can customise it to some extent, but it inevitably ends up with some mixture of danger and treasure.

Dungeon Meshi: I'm less sure I'm interpreting this one right, but as I understand it, there are two basic sources of energy for life: sunlight and mana. Sunlight of course is only available above ground, and mana can be created by living things in a self-sustaining loop, but also tends to drift away into the air if not contained, so this self-sustaining loop only works in enclosed spaces. There are therefore two distinct classes of ecosystems, sunlight-based ecosystems above ground, and mana-based ecosystems underground, whether that's in natural caves or artificially excavated areas.

Beer and Beards: kind of similar to Mother of Learning, areas where magic is naturally generated, but with a particular elemental flavour of magic in each location, so there are distinct dungeons each with unique properties. The one nearest where the story takes place has plant magic, and is therefore good for crops.

I'd be interested to hear if you know of more interesting takes from other media.

[thekinglemingle]

Such Mizuki energy

every time i see a teenager one to three years younger than me i become a fagged out socialite

[alexanderwales]

My wife has finally started reading This Used to be About Dungeons. She's about halfway into the first book and has stopped only once to read out a description of a cat, which is very on brand for her.

[stinkybreath]

I was like “yeah the tutbad chapters are short I’m not tearing through it that fast I guess” but it’s almost 800k words lol

[stinkybreath]

gotta say it’s astonishing to me how deeply cutting some of the relationship/etc stuff in tutbad is. feels personal at this point. mr wales you don’t know me how did you reach into my head like this to roast me so bad

literally reading every perspective in these chapters (except for alfric i guess) is making me do the

[stinkybreath]

reading This Used to be About Dungeons and saying gleefully to myself “they lesbianing together (:”

[stinkybreath]

GET IT MIZUKI!!!

[stinkybreath]

haha yeah alexander wales said FUCK landlords

[stinkybreath]

the trending tiktok audio, how different characters would ask if you’re gay, tutbad party edition

You’re gay. : Alfric

You’re gay! : Verity

You’re one o’ them queers? : Mizuki

You’re girlypop: Hannah

HHMNNH: Isra

[stinkybreath]

well shit I’m caught up on tutbad… guess I’ll add yet another web serial to my rotation

[stinkybreath]

I regret to inform you that I’ve started reading Thresholder (aka Alexander Wales sexism regression… he was being so good about it in tutbad 🫥)

What if I started Yet Another web serial