#user: emperorluffy

[onewomancitadel]

Another small similarity I noticed. Emerald & Mercury are not only reflections of Cinder's childhood self but she also took up the parental role for the both of them and even refers to them as her children. While Jaune's story has him taking care of kids in Atlas and learning not to be a helicopter parent with the paper people. The story highlights both their flaws in dealing with their metaphorical children. Am I crazy? Because it kinda feels like the show is setting them up to be parents.

I have made the case before for them having children on a few different occasions, but not with this specific evidence. (I don't usually bring it up because I feel like this end of the fandom, and fandom in general, gets a bit touchy around it - including me honestly, because I've had some real misogynistic freaks message me about it). Thanks for your ask though, because you've made a good point here. I don't think you're crazy.

I have separately discussed the false mother role Cinder took on with Emerald (I can't recall her referring to them as her children, do you have an episode citation for that? I'm going to assume that was in an earlier volume) but I never considered it in the context of actual children lol. The separate thing with Jaune and kids is very weird (and I am sincerely surprised that they actually did genuine helicopter parenting characterisation with the Paper Pleasers).

The thing you have to remember (and I have to remember) is that this isn't really just there for fluff - as joyful as that can be - but it is genuinely thematically motivated. I have elaborated on this topic in the past a few times, but Ozlem lost their children. There's an ongoing idea of creators/creations and how to control them (or not control them) and let them grow (literal garden metaphor here). Ozma saw his lost daughters in the Maidens; Salem literally went and got an all-in-one daughter (Maiden vessel) replacement. Salem as a bearer of life who killed her children is something very deeply symbolically twisted (this is why Medea is so notable) basically asking to be redeemed.

Note that Ozpin controlling the Maidens - specifically trying to control the transfer with priming Pyrrha for Maiden candidacy, and Ironwood likewise emulating this process - is categorically a bad thing. Those sequences where Cinder stops this happening is a twisted good thing (even if her motivation happens to not be altruistic, but this is why calculatedly I think reforming her attitude towards the Maiden powers makes sense because she's already demonstrated, to some degree, this idea. Take that idea a little further...)

Recall that Jaune took on the role of the Old Man in the Four Maidens fairytale. Jaune is repeatedly connected to Maidens or would-be Maidens in pretty significant ways given that he's not a possible candidate - like, seriously significant, given that he was taken down to the Vault where Amber was and the whole thing with Pyrrha, then Penny, and his enmity with Cinder. The only other Maiden he hasn't had much to do with is Raven, but given Raven may at some point make a return, there's no saying what could happen. So, that he's got this direct relation to Ozma (when he's an old man) is pretty telling because we're being told to directly think about the way Ozma related to his daughters... contrast against Cinder with her Dark Curse - like Salem's own Grimm poolification - and the Ozlem of it all starts getting weird pretty quickly.

But it's such an enduring idea in the show (Ruby's mother wound is a whole thing in her Heroine's Journey) that it's no surprise it's come up over and over. Evil stepmothers and fairy godmothers and growing up and disillusionment with the parent figure are fundamental to these sorts of stories, lol. You can read redemption of a character like Emerald or Winter as escaping arrested development encouraged by various figures in their stories. So if you were to, say, write a character escaping arrested development from their evil stepmother/fairy godmother, 'growing up' and making her own actual family when she's never had any at all is a pretty organic way to convey that entry into adulthood. I don't think this is going to be true for every character, but if they've specificallllyyyyyyyyy done this in a particular way with Jaune and Cinder, it's very weird.

I don't know what else they'd do the dad characterisation with Jaune specifically for once it's moved past a joke into serious thematic territory. Similarly with Cinder I initially always wrote it off as merely Cinder emulating her stepmothers; I would never expect them to follow through on that in a serious way. But in R/WBY, it's not like children were a wayside issue for Raven and Summer; that actually has a significant plot impact (as well as character) on their stories. If there's one show where I wouldn't expect mothers to become nonentities, admittedly R/WBY might be one of them which I'd point to.

I'm still not totally sold on the idea of it happening in canon - like yeah, would it be the epilogue treatment? Is that what full Ozlem resolution looks like? It does work thematically, it does work storywise and for what their characters need/want (either for Cinder with no family or Jaune with a family name which has hurt him, so what can he do to self-determine lol) and yeah, there is some particularly... interesting characterisation. Of course your average detractor would say, 'But she's evillllll' like come on, think for a minute about full character development and transformation and like, life which comes from death. Eyeroll. (Yeah, ironically redeeming the pretend mother role she took on with her acolytes is pretty good... I didn't think of that before).

Let me put it this way: I'm not looking to form-fit a married-with-kids ending for any given female character. I'm only really interested in it if it makes narrative sense. It is very peculiar how it redeems Ozlem in an actual reverse/literal way (this is the specific point I made the case on) and how with what you've laid out here it is actually supported with given characterisation. I wouldn't say this is the case for every character at all.

I'm trying to think of counterpoints, and if you read it specifically in the context of Ozlem (because this is where it's doing so much work) it's hard to read Jaune's characterisation in response to a different character. It really only works if it's Cinder in this case. The counterpoint would be that Jaune answers Weiss' need to continue on the Schnee legacy, but we don't really have much in that direction, and to be totally frank, very little of Weiss' character suggests 'continuing the Schnee legacy', or redeeming it, necessarily involves children. It depends whether they positively answer Jaune's whole identity Arc Huntsman thing or they affirm that actually he was meant to be tied to that and kill himself with expectations or whatever. My problem is that like, the ostensibly bad Huntsman who is romantically tied to Cinder (famously failed by a really bad Huntsman) is the most dramatic and wonderful narrative development possible.

I'm attempting to entertain different perspectives here but yeah I didn't expect to get serious textual justification for Jaune and Cinder having babies. Definitely not on my bingo, and definitely not Jaune characterisation in V9 I'd ever dream of getting canonically.

Basically they need to have sex.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey. I remember a long time ago you said that romance was absolutely necessary for Cindemption. At the time I disagreed. Now? I can safely say I was wrong. After the events of Volume 9 I've become very certain that Knightfall is in fact happening and that it's crucial to the story. I mean we have a character who has never been loved and we're literally told word that love is the answer to resolving the story. It cannot get anymore blatant than that. I'm just shocked that they would be so direct.

I've said over and over that romance is necessary for Cinder's redemption as a consequence of her character wound, yes; it's the central conceit to my blog lol. I think that all love is magical in the story (for good or ill), but romantic love in the context of her character makes the most sense with the character stakes at hand, and the characters who've failed her.

The question is how you get someone to uncompromisingly understand her and someone who's willing to transgress everything and who's actually crafty enough for it - and in this case I think that it necessitates romantic love because a) the friendship of magic hasn't saved Cinder (or Ironwood), but um, that's not our only option, b) epic grand high stakes and c) putting a character into a position where he's actually risking a lot, not necessarily with the guarantee everybody will understand him. Secret Fall Maiden love affair makes sense to me. Then you'd also get the inverse of Rhodes (which is paternal, because she's a child) where she's a shameful secret who has to keep quiet, but in Jaune's case it's actually a redemptive one which can be revealed and precipitate her transformation (and is romantic because she's an adult).

It's not solely a consequence of love (not just romantic) as a metaphysical power in the story (and it is a big deal otherwise, with the brothers, and the familial connections in the story between creators/created and siblings).

But it is absolutely a consequence of Reverse Ozlem and its implications on Cinder's redemption. Salem and Ozma fell deeply in love and their split has physical consequences on the world; we're told very directly that this is a wound which needs resolving in Volume 6 and it recontextualises the show. Salem and Ozma aren't plain old enemies, they were married, and this isn't a bad guy you can just kill (literally, but to represent a symbolic idea).

It's telling that Jaune is the most angry about this because Jaune is also set up for precipitating the resolution of Ozlem with Cinder, so it's got to be something that initially disturbs him (not being able to kill the bad guy, like he wasn't supposed to kill Cinder at Haven) for the full character development effect.

You may also notice that Jaune's journey with Alyx (her being 'good -> evil -> redeemed') and generally his time in Ever After as the Old Man in the Four Maidens story sets him up for helping Cinder, too. He's been put in a more Ozma position as Cinder's afflicted with the Grimm curse, and then you have that whole Reverse Ozlem song and dance.

I am pleased that they reaffirmed this idea and particularly reaffirmed the more positive resolution of fairytales in the story (as a non-cynical rendering, fairytales are real and humanistic). I think that they had already set this up, but we got very straightforward affirmation.

I am also pleased that the trust I put in the story has actually been answered positively in some way, and I appreciate you stopping by to tell me you've changed your opinion. (:

[onewomancitadel]

What do you think of how the Curious Cat was dealt with in V9? Is this anyway indicative of how the cast will deal with Salem? Would it be them standing back as she is finally consumed with death without their intervention?

I mean again you've got a classic case of 'is this same thing going to happen again in the exact same fashion or is this a specific example to be reprised.' Basic storytelling is usually the latter; rarely do things play out exactly the same way. Common mistake fandom makes.

You can easily read it as something that is actually meant to not foreshadow Salem's treatment because it has already happened. Neo took the executive choice to sicc the Jabberwalky on the Curious Cat, but the Curious Cat-Neo relationship was wholecloth invented this volume with only a few scenes to carry it, largely in implication (and Neo is not a character as narratively weighted as Cinder or Oscar, sorry. Frankly I think they did do great work with her this volume giving her that closed resolution). I really doubt that Oscar would treat Ozma like this (because CC doesn't just foreshadow Salem, it's him too) and by extension I really doubt Cinder would treat Salem like that, too - because she already did it with Madame and that never saved her. It only continued the cycle.

The relief for Neo was metamorphosis, not killing the CC proper. If I'm totally honest I think it was partly narrative expediency too. CC is not a character who can stick around! They've got to be handled in a way that they can be dealt with by the end of the volume, and CC is specifically impeded from traditional rebirth because they reject brokenness. So CC effectively represents what will happen to Salem if she can't accept change (because she is cursed to be deathless). But Salem is also a great deal more sympathetic than CC.

Contrary to the order of events (CC being made 'first'), Salem is the bigger deal. She got the personal backstory related in a fable, she is the big baddie whom Ozma and everybody else is fighting, all of CC's characterisation is servicing Salem's (as well as Ozma's. Because CC is symbolically both, CC also cannot be symbolically reborn, because they were never broken in two. I personally think that this is why CC is gender neuter because they are beyond male and female. I don't know if that would make people unhappy, but it is using gender to communicate an interesting idea at the very least).

But also like... it would be very silly to not get a Salem and Ozma reunion and redemption? CC's character resolution was a consequence of decisions long made before in Ever After and their story is not one they could substantially alter, but I think the implication here is that they can with Salem because her story is not yet ended and is one we actually really know and are meant to learn more about.

So if anything I would say that if one straightforwardly reads this resolution as straightforwardly what would happen with Salem, I think that is a little silly and not really how mounting tension works. If we know it's already happened like this, why would it happen again? Would there be more reason for something different to happen? Add in all the context of Salem's deathlessness and her relationship to Ozma, and her more complicated relation with Cinder (and by extension Cinder's backstory), and the fact that Salem's not a perfunctory one-volume villain, then it's more complicated than it seems.

The CC could die to the Jabberwalky and not be reborn. Salem can't die. The purpose of Salem not being able to die isn't just some silly worldbuilding rule; it's because you are not meant to kill this bad guy. You are meant to save her. So drastically different circumstances.

Further, I don't know what exact tone they'll decide to hit with the actual final Ozlem resolution. Because all of the different romantic pairings are all echoing Ozlem in a fashion, it's even possible that at the same time Ozlem has their reunion there's symmetrical romantic reunion with a different pairing or two (the one specifically I'm thinking of here is Ruby/Oscar). But I should hope it's not callous spectating.

One last remark: Jaune's wily solution of separating the CC from Neo might implicate a wily solution to saving Oscar (and separately saving Cinder). Might even implicate his role in one of those tasks. Who knows.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey, whats up? Hope you've been doing well and living a good life. It's been a while since we last talked but I was wondering if you could compile a link of all your Ozlem posts and their parallels to knightfall? I wanted to review them to see if there was anything I missed about the foreshadowing of romance in the story. -EmperorLuffy

Probably a bit late to this one, sorry. Hope you're doing well!

If this question is still applicable, you can peruse my Ozlem posts under my Reverse Ozlem tag. I'm not going through and compiling all my posts, that would take too long and would annoy me.

It's not like it's something that takes overly much to explain, since it's quite an elegant thing: it's Ozlem, redeemed. Lovers-to-enemies, enemies-to-lovers. It's like poetry, it rhymes. That the other canon romances similarly reprise this idea is part of its inherent argumentation.

I discussed it a bit in my Knightfall masterpost as well, but what makes it work is that once you see it, it justifies the ideas of the story. It's all there. Redemption.

[onewomancitadel]

One last thing. I just want to let you know that even if Knightfall doesnt happen it doesnt mean this blog or anything weve discussed where wasnt worthwhile. If nothing else this monolith of Knightfall discourse serves to prove its narrative validity and why its not only good but surpasses all other ships. The discourse in itself has value just for the sake of allowing us flex our minds and break down our thoughts on storytelling. Just know I appreciate you & have a wonderful day. -EmperorLuffy

Aw, thank you so much, this is so kind of you to say, I always appreciate hearing from you! I also really appreciate hearing that because I do agree with you, but I also very much have that cynic in my head telling me it's a waste.

I agree, I really feel like I've learnt a lot as well as been able to articulate what I think better and I've also learnt to trust my story instincts again. Also, I really thought I'd never get anything like Reylo again (which especially had that theme of story poetry/mythic cycles) so it's just good to know I can find things I can enjoy which hit the same spot. Or, I mean, Knightfall is like my most favourite thing ever now more than anything ever lol.

To talk about my fic, I do really value having begun writing/posting The Distance Which Fools the Skimming Eye, which will probably be my happy funtime dreamland if (God forbid) canon doesn't go the way I hope it does, or at least in some spirit of it. I was really anxious about writing it before V9 aired because I was certain at the time it would kill all of my enthusiasm but I feel a lot more confidence now to keep going anyway.

Writing that has been probably one of my favourite things to do ever as well.

But yeah, I ultimately think whatever you get out of art is meaningful even if it's not your ideal. I learnt a lot about what I enjoy and expect in storytelling with Reylo and that was even true of why the film itself and ending upset me to the degree it did.

One of the things I really was curious about is why Kylo Ren's death felt so wrong but a lot of character death in R/WBY really doesn't upset me in a 'this is really wrong' way, and then how do I justify why Cinder's death doesn't make sense. That has been really interesting.

On the note of ship superiority: oh, I cannot make any comment... I don't want to be mean to other people... ok, ok, yeah I think Knightfall is the ship in the show which could realise themes of romance in my favourite transformative way, and the way it's set up means if/when it happens, it's going to carry a lot of narrative impact. I certainly like the other canon ships in the show well enough, and with Blake/Yang in particular I think that does a lot for the themes of romance in the show, but on the other hand I love Jaune and Cinder and it's just like everything I have been waiting my whole life for lol. In Jaune and Cinder's romance you get all of the show's themes in one statement lol. I can't help but love that. I also can't help but speculate about it because of that.

Anyway, I appreciate you saying so very much, I really value going on about the stuff I love and it's very nice to share it. (: Though I do often think I must come off like an annoying freak lol. Not much different to what I actually am like to be fair.

Thank you and hope you have a fab day too. (: <3 <3

[onewomancitadel]

Also want to note that both Oscar/Cinder are under existential threat from their enslavement. Oscar is inching dangerously close to becoming Ozma while Cinder is steadily becoming a Grimm. Like Salem. Both are getting what they want but at great risk of losing themselves and having their identity wiped from existence. Is there really even a story here if they just succumb to their curses? Then what happens? Salem gets redeemed while Oscar & Cinder die? Unlikely imo. -EmperorLuffy

I thought I'd answer this separately just because it's thematically distinct from the previous ask. Thank you for this, that's a really interesting connection between the Dark Curse of the Grimm arm and inherited Ozma curse. Again you get that interesting thing with Cinder where her Dark Curse is acquired (social monstrousness) whereas Oscar's curse is inherited. Jaune/Cinder = acquired; Oscar/Ruby = inherited.

Yes I've always found Oscar's story kind of thematically puzzling - or at least, not as easy to parse as Cinder's, until I started reading the two in relation to each other - because he didn't want what was thrust upon him but what Ozma has taught him has been useful/the magic has saved him, and equally Oscar has humanised and challenged Ozma.

Whereas it's generally assumed that Cinder is taking what she wants, but the Dark Curse is not servicing her - she's not got any other Maiden powers (and she's not supposed to). But, the show has never really gone into the agency of whether she willingly got the arm or not. She's defensive in the confrontation with Raven (where they could have had her show it off, if they really wanted to villainise her) and, most guttingly, she literally lost her voice after the Fall of Beacon.

Losing her voice is essentially a narrative way of flagging she's lost her agency, and I've obviously taken that a step further and inferred that the arm was not something she signed up for. This also works from the literal Dark Curse angle, and given how much her character has sought to hide her past/trauma (not even weaponising it to control Emerald and Mercury like Adam) it would also make sense she would not want to advertise that the arm was forced on her. Cinder's convinced she chose this and wants it and it aligns with her goals and she's not enslaved.

She's different from Oscar in that respect, who's very aware of his situation.

Is there really even a story here if they just succumb to their curses? Then what happens? Salem gets redeemed while Oscar & Cinder die?

I mean that's the thing, what kind of a fairytale is it if they just succumb to their curses lol. It's really weird to me to make the most overtly fairytale Maiden-dragon some sort of tragedy/cautionary tale/feeling compassion is bad, actually kind of character when she's so steeped in that magic. Again I really don't think the lesson of Salem's story is, 'Happy endings SUCK and AREN'T REAL,' as some of fandom believes, rather I think the show is the long way around to a (bittersweet for Salem) happy ending. I think the message 'life doesn't stop' is meaningful, both in the sense of sadness and happiness, but to take it even further, stories are meant to end and have some sort of intelligible and meaningful message.

It's distinctly cruel and unfair that Salem was subjected to that technically absurd fairytale and then was met with zero compassion from the gods. Like, the gods are petty and mean and don't empathise with their subjects, I don't want to be in agreement with them. If ultimately the brother gods are narratively vindicated I feel like the show will be thematically discordant, and I'm not sure what other reason they'd go to make the brother gods unreasonable unless they meant to follow up on it.

Especially because of how the heroes react with compassion/shock when Salem repeatedly tries to kill herself. Like, that feels very purposeful.

I think that the show is kind of trying to communicate how and why stories are meaningful (in lots of different ways, even exploring propagandistic storytelling, and tbh that's my least favourite approach but I see what they're doing, no matter how much it annoys me) and so it would also feel thematically discordant to dismiss the purpose of story structure and intelligible and resonant conclusions... it's not really cynical about happy endings, or at least happy endings tempered with sadness (which in the tradition of fairytales isn't unusual).

A lot of media discourse is about 'What makes a good ending?' because there have been so many missed landings in recent years. There's a lot of discussion about 'realism' and the inherent stupidity of facile happy endings and the 'meaningfulness' of 'tragedy' because that's life (lol, have they even read/watchd real tragedy... it's structurally very specific). None of that stuff matters. It literally doesn't and it baffles me that this is a problem in modern discourse.

A good ending should be inversely intelligible to the beginning and it should answer the thematic statements of the show. If tragedy structurally shares anything in common with other stories it's that idea which the beginning should also be the end. So if you're writing a fairytale where a maiden is rescued from a tower and she's grown up in misery you'd ideally like to see her happy.

I don't know if these are the same sorts of story considerations that the R/WBY storytellers are making, since I'm talking about my own opinions now. But it does feel thematically absurd if Salem doesn't get some kind of absolution and the same is true of Oscar and Cinder.

I've linked my Penny post before where I discussed the purpose of character death in R/WBY and it's not there to be senseless and punish you for caring, it is meaningful and meant to give meaning where Ozma's death had no meaning. If anything I think the show is trying to imbue the story with meaning and challenge the idea that meaninglessness/nihilism is more intellectual/more emotionally profound.

So, I find that very hopeful and those are the types of themes which coalesce with redemption arcs and curses being broken (and I do draw a relationship between the Dark Curse on Cinder, breaking that, and getting through to her personally/morally). Given all of the worry that Oscar will recede into being Ozma and not stay himself (a real theme of adulthood in a way... you can really see some of The Little Prince influence here), it feels like a big red arrow pointing in the direction it won't happen, especially if at Qrow's most cynical point in V6 before his recovery he thinks it's 'kinder' not to lie to Oscar. Ruby's not lying, that's why she triumphs that volume.

I would equally say the same for Cinder. If right in front of her (and us) the threat of the Hound (her not knowing what it is, what she could become, in fact) is there, and I have people sending me asks and leaving comments worried about Cinder becoming that - the same threat Oscar faces - then I feel like as much as that threat should scare you, it also doesn't seem like a reasonable conclusion. Especially if we've already seen the Hound; it would be boring to see that again, especially if people would just be cheering for Cinder to hurry up and die already.

I also just think it's so interesting that a lot of the audience is prepared to and absolutely accepts redemption arcs for a number of characters, but when it comes to Cinder it seems like in a lot of the discourse I've read she's just totally excluded. It's very easy for me to ask, why Winter if not Cinder? It's exciting. There are thematic considerations and then there are considerations of like, what's the most fun you could do with Cinder with the themes it seems like the show is interested in, and living!redeemed!Cinder seems about it.

But if we go back to fairytales and towers... I mean, that's the interesting thing about Cinder's story, she's locked up in the tower and the first Huntsman she meets tells her to stay there and suffer. That's the cruel fairytale. The cruel fairytale is that her fairy godfather/godmother are cruel to her. I don't understand how a reasonable answer to that is just more cruelty. They wouldn't go to the narrative effort of establishing that - of that sad beginning, just like Salem's (how many tried to climb the tower... until one knight with a pure heart came along...) - unless they intended to do something with it. Again: it doesn't feel like the ending is going to be more of the same cynicism. That is, of course, excepting for the fact they don't have an about turn with their storytelling, etc., which are all caveats I hate making but are simply necessary.

But, I don't think Cinder's backstory was shown to us the way it was unless it was to indicate that just like Salem she will eventually be freed and get her 'happy ending', - this also includes personal/moral transformation - I really think Cinder will be too. When V8 dropped everybody was like, yeah I knew it, she was the bad ending Cinderella, but her story isn't over yet. (Insert me mumbling about Rhodopis' twice enslavement here).

So yes, I think that when you consider Oscar and Cinder together, and the role of fairytales and commentary on fairytales and endings in the story, it really doesn't feel right that their curses won't be broken.

Curses! are made! to be broken! in fairytales! Oscar is a prince under a curse! Cinder is a Maiden with a Dark Curse! It's my favourite stuff! I love it!

Thanks for your ask, this was very fun to type my reply out to and yours was very interesting to read and consider.

[onewomancitadel]

Do you think Adult Jaune would look like John Smith from Disney’s Pocahontas, or Marvel’s MCU Thor(Chris Hemsworth)? Personally I’m thinking of making his appearance similar to Rune King Thor from the Comics. It fits in with the grown Paladin aesthetic since plenty of them tend to have long hair. Theres also Sir Gawain aka The Knight of The Sun, from the Fate/Stay Night series that also makes for a fitting template for Adult Jaune. What do you think? -EmperorLuffy.

Hi EmperorLuffy, hope you're having a good one.

Since you're asking for my opinion, I'll give it to you honestly: I abhor all of these, and they absolutely do not fit my mental image of Jaune at all. The long hair is the one feature I think he needs but that's it. If you don't want to read the rest of my opinion I'm just going to put this under a cut.

For that matter, I really like his appearance throughout V4-6, that's my favourite. I'm always going to prefer that edge of pretty boy, I would never go near the super buff over masculine Chris Hemsworth. That is just ugly (and not the good kind of uglyhot) to me anyway, but doesn't make sense for his character at all either.

Same goes for the rest of them.

For me personally I'm always going to go for that slightly more lean - at least to roided up standards these days, so let's just say classically muscular - and princely aesthetic (not incl. Pocahontas on this one because I don't like that film and John Smith isn't pretty either). I can't really think of any examples presently, but then again I'm not really interested in drawing design inspiration from other characters as such. I want Jaune to be Jaune, not anyone else - he's a pretty unique character in my eyes, and I think the fundamental error you're making is that you're prioritising the Paladin thing over the healer thing and also the knight thing (which is a little distinct and is the reason I'd also draw from more romantic designs). I get the sense our tastes do not match on this matter.

Though when I was watching Dark it did send me a bit crazy because the lead character is one hundred percent my live action!Jaune and it gives me so many conflicted feelings:

I'm going to dieeeeeeeeeee. I did very much not make that .gif myself but it's somewhere in the Jonas/Martha tag... also why can I not find any screencaps of Jonas without him being roughed up, poor thing.

Anyway what was the question? Right, inspiration from other designs. *shrug* It seems like we have very different opinions on how he should look (and you can go through my Jaune Arc tag, pretty sure I talked about this a few times). But I would go for a more romantic design and certainly nothing over-the-top like with a big cape and I would never see Jaune as being roided up, ever. I don't know how that became popular, and I absolutely hate it. Death of beauty.

But yeah, if there are such pronounced differences in taste between us, go for what you like. I just think you need to be careful to not lose the essence of the character. When you're saying stuff like Thor or any characters in that near vicinity, that sounds immediately off. The thing with character design is that you also want to be making them in respect to each other, and that's why I think the knight and maiden dynamic with Jaune and Cinder plays off each other so well. He should be a pretty healer-knight and she should be a Maiden-maiden. That's what I think anyway.

I'm kind of getting the feeling, as I write this, my opinion won't be liked, and this isn't what you were asking me for, so sorry in advance.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey, hope you're doing well. Maybe you've talked about this before but I was wondering if you'd considered the idea of Cinder having a similar moment to Anakin in Return of the Jedi? Like Luke to Vader, Jaune forces Cinder to question her beliefs. With Cinder believing it's too late for her and Jaune stubbornly refusing to accept that thinking theres still good inside her. Or rather that she has the potential for good. I feel like something along those lines would work nicely. -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, thanks for your ask.

Well, first of all, I defer to my fanfic The Distance Which Fools the Skimming Eye: my opinion on this is evident and the rest of this post is probably not even necessary to write, lol. (I think you mentioned you may have read it, but for those who haven't/have no interest etc. I'll go into detail on redemption arc features instead).

Second of all, I know you're just using it as a reference but this is a really well established point of interest with redemption arcs in general, not just Luke and Vader, and my favourite stuff ever.

The reason I particularly hold no interest for retreading the Original Trilogy intentionally is because Vader and Luke is a father and son dynamic. That does not fit a romantic dynamic which Cinder and Jaune would (theoretically) have, and is particularly damning given that Vader's death-by-redemption, in its misunderstood glory, characterised modern narrative reception of redemption arcs which should conceivably end in death because they're too hard to write I guess. (We would not like that for Cinder).

Rey/Kylo Ren explored it from a romantic angle already in universe.

So, if I would be taking any cues from SW, it would be from Reylo.

Reylo is actually very successful at this; the relationship between Rey and Kylo Ren is two-way, and the more interesting thing to me is how they're personally fulfilling to each other and would have a future they equally create together (when Rey is offering a future to Kylo, it's also her own). This is not a feature of the father-son dynamic really, not in the same way.

My point sort of here is that I'd like to see more interesting things from Jaune/Cinder which explore redemption arcs from more interesting angles than the established Vader or Zuko generally speaking. (Every girl interested in redemption arcs gets a little tired of hearing about Vader and Zuko).

But yeah, I do love a yummy yummy baddie who thinks they're too far gone and is scared to take the opportunities offered to them because they've been hurt, this is basically why I run my blog, this is one of those questions where I'm kind of laughing because it's essentially the reason I exist at all.

So yes, I would like to see Jaune fervently believe in Cinder when she doesn't and it seems impossible and her life is a tragic cycle. That's all I want. It's the absolute last thing he should ever do (in popular belief) and is a transgressive act but is also the best and most correct thing spiritually and morally. As I've mentioned before this really fits the Joan of Arc heretic angle as well.

In terms of structural questions the interesting thing to me is asking why the villain thinks they're too far gone and what's their standard of too far gone and how is it that they have that conception of morality and their own moral acts. In a way they can accidentally end up the mouthpiece of the very people who think they shouldn't be redeemed, and that's interesting. Because what you're doing is that by saying someone is too far gone, that means they can't turn around, and there are people who would turn around if they could but they believe otherwise. That's basically... the fundamentally interesting question of a redemption arc. Why can't you turn around?

It's that intersection of idealism and perceived failure... which is really embodied in the Byronic hero(ine), honestly. You can clearly see how Cinder's the Shadow of Ruby here, her archetype is the dark beautiful Romantic mirror.

Have a good one.

[onewomancitadel]

I had an idea about connecting Cinder to the Moon. Do you think this is fitting for her character? Is a Crescent Moon a fitting symbol for her? Why or why not? -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, hope you're having a good day.

Yes, I have gone on record a number of times connecting Cinder to lunar symbolism akin to Ruby (and a few other characters, such as Blake and possibly Ren). This partly forms my justification for why warm blue/purple/silver is her redemption arc colour scheme, along with her brooch.

Here's the first post I made about it last September.

The lunar/solar symbolism is present with every ship so far because the unity of opposite elements/symbolic wholeness is a persistent theme not just in RWBY but in myth and narrative in general. It's classically described by Campbell and Jung who are also story structures used in the show.

It's very suspicious to me that the moon is broken in half during the conflict of Salem, Ozma, and the brother gods, suggesting that there is some symbolic wholeness of the lunar elements to be put back together in order to resolve the origin of this conflict.

That the moon 'rising' is associated with Ruby (à la V6 opening), and there's a half of the moon that fell seems like a spectacular pun and is exactly the sort of shit I expect from Miles Luna (RVB fans know with the Fed vs. New, Red vs. Blue stuff, if anybody remembers him relating that pun to the producers).

Ruby 'Rose' and Cinder 'Fall'. Also, the moon falling is on fire.

That further than that, Cinder and Ruby appear to be cosmic twins in the story ('good' and 'evil' versions of each other, Cinder is Ruby's Shadow, Ruby is Cinder's White Shadow) just makes that linkage more apparent.

So, this is symbolic argument for Cinder's redemption as well.

In terms of absolute visuals, I'll give you what I believe to be the best indication she's lunar, and a very recent example:

A lunar eclipse.

(This type of visual symbolic imagery is done frequently, go look at the Red, White, Black and Yellow trailers for the most prominent introduction of it).

So in the sense that Cinder's redemption arc is a righting transformation of her character, the transition to silver (as opposed to gold) is also a symbolic righting, if they decide to do that.

There might be a way they decide to just keep it simple and do blue/gold instead, but honestly if they commit to the moon-on-fire business I think the silver fits better.

Also, as I have mentioned before, Jaune's metallic transition (lead -> gold) fittingly would reflect Cinder (gold -> silver) if their romance is foreshadowed in the way I believe it to be.

At any rate, I don't think we're really talking about moon phases (e.g. crescent, waxing, waning) as absolute symbolic imagery, it's just solar/lunar, and specific to RWBY we have the split halves of the moon.

However, you could make the argument that the phases of lunar characters like Ruby and Cinder follow phases of the moon, if you wanted to be poetic.

I think that the crescent moon for Ruby in particular is just because it fits her scythe (in visual association, it's usually just the moon with her framed against it) and the associated chthonic elements of that. Every character is kind of dual in that way (life/death in particular for Ruby), which is more evidence in favour of Cinder's redemption, lol, speaking from a purely thematic perspective.

So yes, I think the lunar imagery for Cinder is right, and makes sense from a symbolic and thematic perspective, especially read in relation to the Salem and Ozma conflict-of-the-world, with a very satisfying pun to it.

I am also extremely ham with this lunar imagery and her in my fanfic.

Thanks for your ask. (:

[onewomancitadel]

If Cinder really is meant to be a foil to Ironwood then her redemption makes even more sense. Ironwood was a character we always 'thought' was good until he turned evil at the end of his story. Whereas Cinder would be a character we always thought was evil but is eventually redeemed at the end of her story. She parallels his journey but with the opposite result. -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, it's great to hear from you again. <3

You're bang on the money.

This is pretty much why I think their foiling through the Atlas arc is so ingenious and why her Byronic heroine characterisation is so clever. Byronic hero(ines) rage against authority lol.

That's why a Byronic hero(ine) enslaved with an evil master is a situation they have to get out of, and that's usually why a Byronic hero(ine) is the 'second in command'. If a lone Byronic hero is the main antagonist it will usually involve some flip of morality or challenge for the protagonist.

Also, I just want to note that in the scene from V8 where she's doing the archetypical Byronic hero brooding referencing Wanderer Above a Sea of Fog, she's talking about the heroes' futile plan to try and save the world.

Like, she's brooding over saving the world, I don’t know how to communicate exactly how effective this is and how Byronic it is, it makes me cry. Cinder wants to remake it and tear down the stuff which hurt her (and which hurt other characters in the story, lol), and Salem's manipulating that to her own ends - which is really demonstrated with Hazel.

To circle back around to the Ironwood point, yes, effectively they are both driven in different directions by Salem. I also think that her recommitment to villainy in V8 even parallels his recommitment to the Cause of Good in V7, I just think her character arc is operating on a broader scale than his.

But like, in terms of audience reaction it's been really fascinating for me to see how polarising Ironwood's turn is, because I'm really interested in who claims to be a hero and who claims to be a villain generally, and what that communicates at an audience level. As I've mentioned in a number of posts I really think this influences the way Ironwood's acts of villainy are received (and often justified) contrasting to Cinder, and if you don't get Cinder or understand her narrative importance you're going to miss what's going on with Ironwood quite likely. I'm not even saying I wouldn't like to have seen a character like Ironwood going back on a path to redemption if that had been the direction they wanted, but his foiling to Cinder indicates that his fall coincides with her rise.

If the ultimate ending for her is a redemption arc then you can't really give that to him without losing that symmetrical effect.

There is one thing I think they could have capitalised upon with V8 or potentially even earlier in V7 - actually ideally - and that would have been to show that even if Ironwood did what he could to help Mantle, the businesses such as the Glass Unicorn in Atlas itself were still doing what was done to Cinder (but we didn't necessarily know this yet, but perhaps suspected). It would've been a really great way to flag Cinder's backstory to the audience who weren't early on like, hang on she's a sad Cinderella? and further show that Ironwood's heroism is really about what he's saying and claiming, the performativity of the military, meanwhile what's expedient he's comfortable with - like, if he knew, he certainly would've felt bad, but he wouldn't have done anything about it (which is great! I love how this contrasts to Cinder).

I also think that it may have flagged the necessary downfall of Atlas (like, the magical oppressive place in the clouds has to come down, if it's fairytale storytelling). Cinder's destruction of Atlas is effectively a systematic answer to what Ironwood would've never done anything to stop, and to be honest I think it's more of an interesting narrative answer. The people are saved, the place is torn down, and then you rebuild.

But that goes back further to what I think Cinder's doing thematically in the story, which I have already written enough about.

But yes, their respective foiling - the representative of the downtrodden of Atlas and the man who holds all of the power - is very very very potent for me personally and I think like, on nearly every single front, in every single way they foil, her redemption arc makes sense opposite his fall.

It's really the way to make his fall even better, honestly. A very tragic, 'I wish this weren't happening' villainous fall contrasting a redemption arc I've been invested in and hoping for since V4 is sort of beautiful. I've noticed a lot more people since V8 wondering if it's a narrative question and after the tragedy of his fall, I think that a really hopeful rise is the way to go.

So overall I really think that the symmetry of their stories is really beautiful, and it's some of my favourite stuff out of the Atlas arc. Like, there's nothing more I love in the world than the villain who thinks they're the hero and the hero who thinks they're the villain.

I love that kind of genre awareness - that's why I'm so in love with the way Ironwood is so genre inappropriate for the fairytale magic.

Because Cinder is basically steeped in fairytale magic, that's why she's able to stop his attempts of controlling the Maiden power through Fria and Winter, that's her narrative role, and that's why I think she can be the baddest bestest Fall Maiden.

[onewomancitadel]

I dont fully if Im gonna write it but Ive been toying with the idea of a Knightfall fic in my head. Happens in Atlas. In addition to the Romance I wanted to have Cinder confront her past trauma. The only reason I thought about including her parents was because she does in fact have parents in the original Brother's Grimm tale and their deaths are key to her story. I thought I could weave it into the narrative somehow. Do something a little more interesting. But if not I wont. -EmperorLuffy

Sure, good luck with your fic and enjoy writing. I'm sure you can figure it out.

For the record, the Brothers Grimm version is not the first/original Cinderella in the literary tradition (and I don't mean in the Rhodopis sense). You can definitely derive interesting things from it anyway, I just wanted to point that out lol. The Grimm version is also rather more... grim.

Fun fact: Cendrillon ou la petite pantoufle de verre (1697) is when the glass slipper first appears (in the literary tradition). There's a factoid passed around that the 'glass slipper' is supposedly a mistranslation of a 'fur slipper' but this isn't the case. Anyway, I think that's cute. Maybe Cinder needs something furry.

[onewomancitadel]

I often get backlash for suggesting that Cinder being Redeemed & Knightfall is the best narrative decision for her character that adds way more to the story but I have a hard time with the moral and emotional walls people put up in response. The emotional argument some give is that it "completely spits on Pyrrhas grave" which I can see how some would see it that way and the moral argument of getting with a killer being a horrible idea. How do I break through these objections? -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy. (:

I think that the better option is to have a temperament of sincerity and serenity and an unconcern with trying to convince people.

The reality is that people change their opinion on their own accord, especially when you take their opinion seriously and try to identify exactly where they're coming from. There's also the fact that an emotional response to the text is not necssarily 1:1 with an interpretative response to the text. it can be, but isn't always. So on that note, even if they're upset about Pyrrha, that doesn't change what the show is doing.

To my eyes, I think there is also a misunderstanding of what characters and character death represents in the story. I've mentioned before that I think Pyrrha represents the Fall of Beacon and Cinder's greatest villainous act, and by Pyrrha being killed by her, it makes her Jaune's personal enemy and his greatest concern. So the purpose here serves many thematically - Salem/Ozma themes of death and grief and the redemption of htat; structural and narrative concerns (how to make Jaune care about Cinder and Cinder get her focus off Ruby); it's the tone break and death of childhood; the 'sacrifice' of Pyrrha, and the sacrifice of Cinder (her whole life); so on and so forth. If Jaune learns from losing Pyrrha, he can apply that to his relationship with Cinder and recognise where she's been let down.

I have said before that Jaune's in a unique narrative position to kickstart her redemption if they decide to commit to it. Because it's less about Pyrrha-the-character and more about what Pyrrha represents in Cinder's story, which is the path between her and her goals and the bad things she's willing to do.

But that doesn't matter because there's the kneejerk reaction that it's insulting to Pyrrha, as if she were a real person and this weren't an intentionally crafted story, and idk Jaune/Pyrrha was true love forever.

As you can tell I think the fairytale romances in the show have more going for them textually and endgame wise than the anime trope childhood romances. There's a reason Jaune/Pyrrha ends the way it does, it's not fairytale True Love (it's still a meaningful relationship) but R/WBY is interested in fairytale True Love (most prominently with Blake/Yang). I would've thought if his True Love was taken from him he'd have more to say to Cinder in V5:

He's talking about the Fall of Beacon cuz that's what Pyrrha represents. There's no cringey vengeful boyfriend stuff going on here. Also, the Pyrrha stuff was really done with in V6 so I'm not sure why everybody thinks Jaune is going to settle down with her ghost.

Ok, where was I...

I think that given the style of redemption afforded to Ilia, Hazel, Winter, Emerald, etc., there's some sort of equivalent narrative act that the redeemed character plays out in the story. Ilia with the White Fang and the mines in V5; Hazel saving Oscar and the children unlike the death of his little sister and the harm he wanted to do towards Oz (unable to recognise the boy there); Winter remembering to watch her back, crying out the ice shard from her eye and doing the emotionally right thing in response to her by-the-law attitude; Emerald helping rescue Oscar and save Penny after helping kill Oz (getting Cinder into the school) and instigating Penny's death.

This is why I remain convinced that in order to redeem Cinder she has to assume responsibility as a good Fall Maiden, because that, to me, is her equivalent good act to her arc of trying to thieve the Maiden powers, and killing a would-be Fall Maiden. Also, I mean, if she brought down cities I'd like to see her help raise them, but whatever.

Anyway I think I would take criticism of Jaune/Cinder more seriously in the face of Jaune/Pyrrha if it weren't coming from a spot of fantasy independent of what's in the text. I also wouldn't be half as confident about Knightfall if Blake/Yang had not been canon, but they've clearly demonstrated they're interested in doing unique things and committing to the story they want to tell.

Also I think what's more interesting to me, is to question why a story is being told in a particular way, as opposed to trying to say 'but Pyrrha's death makes me sad!' It was an intentional feature of the text, it's not happenstance or vengefulness, Pyrrha's death was planned and was intended to creative narrative tension and pain. To me, I think it's very clever, and what I want to know is what direction Jaune's arc is supposed to go in and equally Cinder's.

The very plain story would be Cinder killing Pyrrha, boo, now put down the bitch and get her villainy out of the way and find a new, shitty Fall Maiden. Like, that narrative path that everybody's convinced is going to happen doesn't make sense according to what's been demonstrated! Even if you don't agree with Cindemption or Knightfall, Cinder's not going to be killed for being evil.

That was very much resoundingly rejected in V5 when Cinder and Jaune were being weird and all over each other and then in V8 when she didn't even kill HIM for keeping the power from her and he's on his back right in front of her.

Yeah, yeah come on... the Fall Maiden's lesson is to learn to look at what's right in front of you already... I KNOW

My point here is that I think it's been rejected that he's going to kill her (gestures to all of V5) and if there's one person who might have, it would have been him. I think R/WBY has demonstrated it likes doing things its own way, and tbh I think if there is a fair Maiden under a Dark Curse who is also a dragon then the knight is not meant to slay the dragon, not especially if his Semblance is what it is.

Anyway, blah blah blah, Penny's mercy kill sets up Knightfall, Jaune's in a complicated position story-wise, idk, Idk how to address the 'but he'll be with her KILLER' because that's just a non-starter, if I already address the narrative/structural detail of forgiveness only being possible through him, these are probably people who also totally reject Cindemption and then I'm like what fucking show are you watching, do you want fairytales? You're going to be SO upset when Salem's purified and saved. BECAUSE SHE CAN'T BE KILLED. WOW. Almost like that's a theme of the show or something.

And Jaune himself was particularly disturbed by this.

I wonder why!!!!!!!!!!

This is becoming a sort of pseudo-Knightfall manifesto, but my broader point is that, I can appreciate you might like enjoying debating, but it's not really my wheelhouse and my preference is to write my silly little posts on my silly little blog and wait to see if that resonates.

But if debating is really your thing I think the thing to be equipped with is confidence, unconcern - it really doesn't matter if other people change their mind, honestly, and I think people are more likely to listen if you're just interested in sharing something - and also like, idk, treating R/WBY as an intelligble story as opposed to a kneejerk fantasy.

I mean obviously my approach is concerned with fairytales and Jung, and paying attention to the R/WBY fairytales themselves like Salem and Ozma. So I use that as part of my analysis because I think it's been well demonstrated they have a bearing on the show. Obviously people have said I read into stuff before but I think I know how far I can go and what's reasonable. Still, nobody has asked me about the Usurper and the Holy Mother and it makes me sad.

Anyway, idk, there are like manifold issues here (trying to change peoples' minds, Pyrrha, narrative concerns) that it can be hard to parse.

Also, I still haven't figured out myself how to 'change minds'. Because fundamentally I think Knightfall is a romance that kind of demands you read it according to fairytale and story terms (aka R/WBY terms) and a lot of people are convinced Jaune is a shounen protagonist who'll get the real good girl anyday now and it's kind of impossible when you have opposite methodologies.

Not that I'm convinced I'm right 100% of the time... I just want to allow that. I am interested in what story the show ends up telling... but I do really really like its fairytales.

I hope that is helpful in some manner lol. It was a bit long sorry.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey Sera. Hope you've been doing alright. I have a small question: I've seen you mention that Cinder is coded as a Queen. Can you elaborate on that? I'd like to hear more about how her character is thematically connected to the idea of being a Queen. -EmperorLuffy

I'm not really sure how else to expand other than what's already been said, either in her tag or what's in my Indecisive Queen tag (should speak for itself, and for what's in the Knightfall masterpost with the Indecisive King), and canon's depiction of her as the chess queen, which is self-evident: her callsign; her chesspiece on Ironwood's desk; more important than a pawn but not a player per Salem; checkmate; and as I remarked in an obscure post once about two and a half years ago or more, once a pawn crosses to the other side of the board it can become a queen if the original queen is lost, see her Beacon infiltration but also it potentially foreshadows her redemption, and indeed all of the Maidens being redeemed figures.

Plus her Relic is a crown.

I suspect there's something about thematically going beyond being just a piece in a game - which is what the Maidens are essentially characterised as: simply pieces to be moved about and controlled and mere powerups and keys to the Relics etc. with all of the original spirit of the power lost. You can see discussed throughout my Cindemption tag and in this post about the Maiden meat puppet machines.

So that otherwise lines up with everything else I've said about her and the Maiden powers.

Though she is a mix of princess, maiden and queen theming, in my opinion, because R/WBY is just like that.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey Seraphina. I remember there being a blog post analyzing, Cinder, Watts, and Ironwood in V8. I can't seem to find it again. Can you show me the link? Also, hoping you're having a fantastic day. -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, hope you're doing well.

I don't know what you're talking about, so you may have to be more specific. In terms of what I personally read, the analysis posts I have chiefly perused are those by aspoonofsugar and misstrashchan, and I definitely don't go on the subreddit anymore.

There is a post here about Cinder and Ironwood by aspoonofsugar I recall enjoying, but I haven't reread it recently so I'm not 100% sure if I still agree. (I generally think Ironwood's fall contrasts with Cinder's rise).

Anyway, I mostly use my blog to post my own thoughts, so I probably won't be helpful for this sort of thing in future. I can definitely remember stuff I've read that I disagree with, though; I'm unhelpfully vague about what I reference because I generally prefer avoiding starting shit.

You have a good day too.

[onewomancitadel]

Hey I hope you've been doing ok. What virtues do you think Cinder has or represents? -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, hope you're having a good one.

Well, this is actually sort of hard, because moral excellence in the context of Cinder is, by necessity, kind of absent. Areas where I have discussed some of the potentially 'good' aspects of her are narratively disguised, and intentionally (I feel):

Ironwood's villainy contrasted against the intentionally Byronic heroine framing, for instance, across the course of V8 in particular is something that a lot of people - I found, as V8 premiered - saw as intentional flipped hero vs. villain framing but rather as the squabbles amongst Salem's playthings. But, as always, my favourite thing throughout V7 was the insistence Ironwood's fall wouldn't happen, and he was the true hero, and actually Cinder just needs to be put down and dealt with, when it seems like the reverse is true.

The Fall of Atlas is something which needed to happen, and it made sense that the scapegoated child was the one to really try and make it happen. It's the needed destruction to make way for new things to come through, and the heroes saved the people, and the inherent physical, symbolic structural oppresssion of Atlas was thwarted. Cinder killing Madame wasn't enough, that's just for her; it all had to go.

As I also mentioned in a few recent posts, because I'm working on another post sort of semi-related to this topic, is that Cinder in a 'bad intentions, but ultimately good results' kind of way - which again, is opposite to Ironwood, who started out with good intentions and had very bad results (specifically embodied in the Maiden meat puppet machines, no less) - frees the Maiden candidates from their burdensome choice, and gives choice back to Fria. Fria wouldn't have been able to reject the machine, but she could reject Cinder.

It's very suspicious framing to me, because it suggests there's possibly more to Cinder than it really seems. But because there's this idea that the Maiden meat puppet machines are actually good - Pyrrha should have been the Fall Maiden, Winter should have used the machine - and a fundamental misunderstanding of the Maiden powers, again, Cinder's true character arc is disguised.

In actual fact, in some type of perverted way, Cinder is already helping out reform the powers, and that she may do that eventually herself with the Fall Maiden power is very structurally meaningful. Partly because I think that will finally recontextualise to people who missed it what the powers are meant to be and what they're meant to be used for, and if you learn through Cinder it's not about video game powerups but about something deeper, more complex, metaphorical and spiritual, then the lesson should finally be obvious.

I guess when you talk about the Byronic hero, you're also talking about the wounded idealist. This is another post I made a draft note to work on, but it's not that Cinder is some nihilist who never believed in anything - she did.

and she doesn't think anything she believed in is possible. So why in the fuck would they frame her this way? Why would they say misguided - like if they knew better, like her, they wouldn't try to save it. But if it were possible, would she? Would she be against someone like Salem? This is the long-suffering, brooding Byronic hero.

This is why I find it hard to buy that her ending is specifically supposed to be nihilistic and validate her worst mentors and enslavers, but that's just me.

I suppose you might care for things like honour - Cinder lets Pyrrha and Jaune go at first, to fight Ozpin, and then and only then does she actually kill Pyrrha at the top of the tower. She slaughters Adam's camp with Emerald and Mercury to racketeer him into supporting Salem. She kills the woman at the bottom of the Vault whence she crawled out because the woman sees her as a monster. She does however knock civilians off the Yellow Brick Road, but we know they might not be dead - so whether the narrative here is condemning her or not I'm not entirely sure. So there's some thought to her, more than a character like Tyrian, and indeed more than Adam.

Analysing that stuff is less interesting to me than looking at the narrative consequences in the story and her framing against other characters, though, Ironwood most of all and most suspiciously. I also find her contrasted against Raven interesting, mostly because they're both antagonistic but they're also both Maidens and Raven is a mother and Cinder is a daughter, so there's very interesting stuff going on there, but that's not really about story virtue. I do however think there's some intentional disguised framing there.

The key to writing a redemption arc that's easier to swallow in a story like this is you've got to have characters to contrast with who are worse, so you've got to have complicating elements to Cinder's villainy. Salem's one way to do it - that's why with the V3 finale and V4 introduction, Cinder's redemption back then was my first inclination. Imagine my joy when I figured out a sympathetic treatment for Salem was in the works too.

So it's not just a measure of what's 'good' about Cinder but what is 'worse' about others, and how is she specifically framed, etc., and what is being done thematically... Cinder hunting down Amber with Emerald and Mercury and using the Grimm bug = very bad, that's why she only gets 'half' the power. Killing Amber properly = somewhat better, she gets the full power, and stops the machine from being used. She'll never get another Maiden power because she's not supposed to.

I suppose I disagree with some of the sentiment surrounding Cinder and her beliefs - I agree with her idea of destiny, I just think her certainty surrounding it is incorrect and takes out the mystique of it, and more importantly she doesn't view her own choices and others' as important as they ought to be. Pyrrha's definition is ill-thought out, and had her ideology been validated I would've been very confused at the badphilosophy, but the purpose there is to contrast their opposite opinions.

So Cinder's on the right track, she just doesn't know it yet. That's why I find the disguised framing, the theming, the portrayal of the Maiden powers, her villainy, the things she does vs. everybody else, etc. so interesting, because it's all lining up for this perfect storm, and is my favourite kind of narrative playfulness.

Not sure if that's the answer you wanted, but that's the one I've got. Thanks for your ask.

[onewomancitadel]

Thats fair. It's understandable considering I'm no longer invested in the ending since I dropped the show, but it's not entirely a product of not caring about the ending. There are other shows that I love like One Piece for example where I'm immensely invested but also I'm not really concerned with the ending. Though maybe thats because One Piece emphasizes Journey > Destination due to primarily being about Adventure. Regardless I always appreciate your perspective. Thank you. -EmperorLuffy

I'm more certain of Cinder not dying, and even more certain of her redemption than ever before. I was reviewing KM Weiland's Book "Creating Character Arcs" and Cinder's final scenes in Atlas are all indicative of the phase in a positive change arc where a character at first rejects the truth they need in order to change. It's the part where the character moves closer to the thing that they want but as a result move even further away from what they need. -EmperorLuffy

The case for her redemption becomes even more solid when you consider her backstory. Not necessarily what its about but rather the fact that she got one in the first place. If shes just going to be killed off, then why give her a backstory at all? Adam didnt get a backstory Neither did Hazel Watts or Ironwood No one who died got a backstory but Cinders story is apparently so important they can devote an entire Season to it? Doesnt sound like a character thats meant to be killed off -EmperorLuffy

Sorry if I'm typing too much but my point was that they are very clearly doing something with Cinder that they are not doing with any other antagonist besides Salem. Thus it's only reasonable to conclude that Cinder's character story holds some sort of significance, as there wouldn't be a need to tell her story otherwise. There'd be no point in fleshing out her story if there were ultimately no meaning behind it and she was just meant to die. -EmperorLuffy

Hi EmperorLuffy, hope you're having a good day.

Sad to hear you dropped the show. Unfortunately for everybody I am very much here to stay. (Also no, you're not typing too much, I think it's pretty obvious I don't mind length around here). (:

I've no reference point for One Piece, and it's really not the sort of anime that interests me, but I can respect your taste.

I think you’re misunderstanding my point about endings. Endings aren’t arbitrary, they affirm the intent of the text. The point of Cinder's redemption is that not only is it just interesting but it also affirms and lines up with themes in the show - it's not too late to turn back, life isn't senseless tragedy, there is meaning in pain and joy... and because I love and adore Rose Tico, I think, 'It's not about fighting what we hate, but saving what we love,' is something I spy in R/WBY in particular.

Whilst I do broadly agree with you about Cinder's redemption, I've already written a lot on this topic and similarly commented on the special attention paid to her. For how economic they are with their storytelling (and the fairytale/mythic intertextuality is one way of doing this), they dedicated quite a bit to her in V8 alone.

I also wrote more here on Cinder versus Adam. That post covers a lot of what I think are critical errors in comparing Cinder to Adam. Similarly, my first post about Hazel covers issues with death-by-redemption and what the purposes are of a character like Hazel, in relation to Cinder especially, though the post is from October last year. And yes, I'm pretty sure Cinder's redemption is set up for Salem's, that's why the literal Salem/Ozma analogue with Jaune and Cinder is so potent.

I would agree that the conflict of desires and needs are very apparent with her character and I've also written about this before, it's the conflict inherent to what she thinks she wants out of the Maiden power (power, and all of them) versus what it could actually give her (spiritual and emotional development, true freedom and responsibility). The fact she's tricking her own master (the way Oscar tricked Ozma in V6) at the end of V8 should be significant enough on this front alone.

Here is an early post about what direction I think Cinder's redemption is taking at the end of V8. It's a bit older as well, and I might articulate it better now, but I would still compare the point her character is at as the same position Ironwood was in recomitting to good. (I think I was a bit impassioned in that post because the idea that Cinder was just going to be evil again and it was some sort of 'subverted' redemption arc was something I had been seeing around since the end of the volume).

From that post:

#a treatise on why cinder fall is the love of my life #cindemption #LOL! I DO WHAT I WANT!

Ok I guess I forget how much 'too much' I am.

Also, I'm not sure how it's possible to read Cinder's redemption (and her living) without Knightfall, so it's interesting that you don't think Knightfall will be canon but maintain Cinder's redemption is likely. Personally I think it's a wombo combo. I can't find where I've talked about this before but I think the point with Cinder is you need someone to get through to her, and the 'power of friendship' is clearly insufficient.

Anyway, I think the best point is that her death means the Maiden powers will be in question. As I've said so before, this doesn't make sense unless the Maiden powers are done away with, but even in that case it doesn't mean she has to die. I also think all the current Maidens except Summer are endgame, as I've said a few times... so there's a clear thematic statement being made with the powers, especially in relation to redemption, and also for something else I twigged, but that's going in a new post - I forgot to make it the other night when I went to sleep. It's more of a deliberate articulation of the themes of legacy.

Poor old Cinder. Everybody speculates over her death, for good or ill. I want to see her hatch a magnificently evil plan and succeed only to find the victory spiritually hollow. Oh wait!