#what happens to lamond and this new dragonforged

[reliquiaen]

Okay, a few years back I made this graphic to explain the Great Cycle. Now that I've mulled over DD2 for a few days, I'm updating it. Some of the same assumptions as before remain: The Dragonforged fought the dragon, his weapon broke, he tried punching it (lmao), but he did survive without killing the dragon, possibly there was a second Bargain offered in the face of his determination. So you don't have to kill your dragon to survive it. Also still assuming that different classes become different types of drakes because I just like that detail, even though we see nothing to confirm it in DD2 (except maybe for the wyrms in the post-game, I hope that's what those are, just a bit redesigned).

But this time, I'm making some NEW assumptions: A Great Dragon can be manifested directly by the Seneschal's will (I'm guessing this is why our DD2 dragon doesn't have a name, I suspect this dragon was created after Rothais defeated his - he didn't become a dragon OR Seneschal so it had to come from somewhere). The challenge a Seneschal poses to the Arisen can be anything; Savan gave us the opening of the Everfall and unleashed a ton of powerful monsters upon the world; but Pathfinder gave us what the world would look like without a Seneschal to oversee things. My assumption is that the Colossal Dragon that appears out of that final red pillar of light IS the Pathfinder (possibly using his will to force order back upon the world) and when we kill it, our Arisen becomes Seneschal (because Pathfinder says he won't be there to see the new world that's forming). So the challenge can be anything, not just the Everfall. I'm curious what happens to our pawn after that fight, though. And it's a much better Seneschal fight than the one against Savan, sorry Savan.

I'm also assuming that (given we see the Pathfinder rewind time and rewrite the world) the Seneschal can simply will the world into a state of being that suits them. This includes wiping memories of events. Though I like to imagine that our Arisen-turned-Seneschal didn't wipe memories of themselves or of the apocalypse-world. There was an entire plotline going through this game with Rothais and Phaesus where mortals are trying to get rid of the Seneschal and so it makes sense that they need to remember what would happen without the Seneschal's presence.

Anyway, thanks. I'll probably have more thoughts later, but this is the part that gets me most. I like to know how things work so I wanted to sort the Cycle out.

[areeis]

[DD/DD2 game/lore/character spoilers]

I keep thinking about 'former' Arisens' pawns and wonder why it is they never show up nor even get mentioned at all. It would've been interesting to have at least some pawns, seeing as there are a bunch more Arisen than in DD1/DDDA that you can actually meet. It would've been interesting to see some have beastren pawns, especially since none of them are beastren themselves.

It would've also been an opportunity to get more lore through them, since DD2 fleshed out the pawns themselves, but then left them kinda hanging. With how DD2's cycle is really fucked to begin with I understand that a lot of things weren't really addressed (like what happens to the others once one Arisen kills their Dragon) and it really also wasn't the focus of the narrative, but it'd still have been important for the big picture, imo.

I was also thinking about whether or not the known 'former' Arisen would even keep their pawn around and why/why not. It's difficult to really be sure about a lot of things concerning this cycle or its duration, but here are some vague ideas:

Rivage Elder: Likely would've dismissed his pawn after realising the truth and knowing he failed to restore the world, just so he could feel like he freed them and they wouldn't be further wasting their time. Maybe he told them of something to do from now on, but I think he'd rather just tell them to beat it. Alternatively he might've taken them on another fruitless boating trip until the Brine tipped over their boat and his pawn got brined, and then he just never called them back and stayed on his own.

Cliodhna: Seems the least concerned with the whole Arisen thing and that would likely also extend to her pawn. Depending on how long she's already lived (or how long DD2 elves live in general) she might've had to take more time to adjust to her new situation and then for one reason or another didn't go through with killing her Dragon. If DD2's pawns are like DD1's pawns, then she might've noticed her pawn starting to look more and more like her over the years. Maybe she disliked that and told them to leave.

Sigurd: Would welcome anyone willing to bring down wyrms, so why he wouldn't have at least his MP still with him I really don't understand. He was the first Arisen where I was really curious and I couldn't come up with a good reason. Maybe his pawn was becoming less able to traverse the rift and would've therefore been a risk to keep around as a fighter or the like in case they died. Still, I would like to know the real reason.

Lamond: Might still be connected to his pawn in some way, likely telling them to make money so he can buy more liqueur. It would be funny if one of the two pawn merchants you can meet was his pawn in this case, since it's clear he's well travelled and knows Vernworth as well as Bakbattahl. Alternatively he might've also told his pawn to leave in a similar way the Elder did, since there was just no use for them any more.

Luz: Might want to keep her pawn around to aid with her profession as an oracle, as an informant perhaps. Depending on how much time has passed (and depending on DD2 pawn lore details) they might even look similar enough to pass as each other, which would fit with her being trickster in case she's attacked. I also think she forms bonds easily with anyone, so it would be comfortable to have someone around whose company she trusts after leaving Vermund. Who knows, maybe when talking to her it was her pawn half the time and not actually her.

Dragonforged: Doesn't seem the kind of hermit to dislike company, so I think his pawn could still be around, wandering and exploring the world, coming for a visit sometimes. For his enhancements it would help to have someone around, I bet, but I also think that he has to enhance things so rarely it wouldn't be worth keeping anyone there permanently. That and him living in the smallest cave he could find.

Rothais: By this point his pawn could've already become a person many times over and died of natural causes. Though I think Rothais was a little busy with other things to have paid that much attention to it.

Thoughts?

[brinehater]

OK so since you said it was alright, here it is! I'm putting it under a read more, it's a lot, I'm so sorry I can't put it into something super cohesively short because I have to explain myself. Also it's messy, so there's that warning too.

Basically my unhinged theory about the other "failed" Arisen relies on two points, so let's get those out of the way.

First, guessing that the Rivage Elder also probably very likely is one himself. He's ""he who was dragon-forged" in Harve Village" after all (horrible way to refer to him, quest log, when there's literally a character called the Dragonforged, but makes sense if it's also referring to him as a previous Arisen), and if you look closely at his chest he does have an extremely faded scar. Additionally, if you die and choose the "give up" option in the Unmoored World you get an ending where your Arisen appears to become just like him presumably in the latest iteration of the DD2 cycle. It also seems like he's also seen the Unmoored World before if you put together some of his comments (I.E. he'll very sometimes talk about the ocean having disappeared, he's "seen the real world" and barks at you to ponder how to get to it yourself).

Second, the next thing it relies on is the other "failed" Arisen seem to be just straight up missing their dragons for some reason. They're ageless as though they never got their hearts back, but they don't appear to be tied to your Arisen's like DD1's Dragonforged and the Duke were. Lamond states outright his dragon is gone which imo is a really weird way to put it if he just had failed to fight the dragon. Gone to me says that the dragon was slain*.

Putting these two together, my theory is all? most? of the "failed" Arisen in DD2 Unmoored their worlds and then gave up because it broke their wills, and are all handling that to differing degrees of well**. Admittedly, this theory has the glaring hole of also relying on the Pathfinder being such an asshole they erase each of their worlds but leave those Arisen alive in the next to continuously... I don't know, make mockery of them for trying to do this and forcing them to witness attempts continue to fail? (I don't put them beyond being willing to do this, but that's just me, and a godlike being this deep into their bullshit being that degree of petty and sure every attempt is going to continue to fail is fun in that truly awful kind of way)

And god the idea of just there's all these people who potentially sacrificed their hearts, their mortality, trying to change things and only saw their worlds fall into chaos and then saw them wiped out when that chaos broke them and keep having to see this happen over and over again... it makes me want to bite walls! SO BADLY!

*) - I'm willing to give though that his case he could've also just been fairly recent-- we do have the preceding Sovran, Erland (whom Disa was married to according to the DD2 site), and Lamond could've come right before him and maybe sacrificed whatever form his beloved took to the dragon, and then Erland was chosen and could've slain that dragon (though hey, for all we know, maybe he also died to the dragon, we have no details about him other than his name, that Disa was married to him, and Brant's speech at the very start states it's been decades since him). That said, we also don't know exactly what length of time sits between each Arisen being chosen. For Arisen becoming Sovran of Vermund to be a viable system that's been going for a hot minute, especially as the game presents it as valid for them to take the throne before they even slay their dragons, there's an implied distance of some degree at the very least between the next Arisen. Otherwise, Vermund would pretty often be in a state of found their ruler, ruler does or fails the one thing they're super expected to do, and then they immediately get booted/there's a new Sovran right away because next Arisen has appeared, which doesn't seem to be the case. I also personally don't like this if only because I feel like there'd at the very least be rumors of another Arisen running around before that point and failing, but who knows. Maybe somehow Lamond became Arisen and failed on the lowdown, but this still doesn't solve for the other "failed" Arisen floating around, many who are presumably MUCH older (Rivage Elder, Dragonforged) and have also had others slay their dragons after.

**) - My personal speculation extending further from that is the Rivage Elder is the eldest of them and is content to seemingly rave on his beach waiting to just get on to the next iteration, and Lamond is the youngest and still trying to cope with his whole world was erased. The Dragonforged, Luz, and Sigurd meanwhile hold out varying degrees of hope and actively, though distantly, try to help the next Arisen able to reach that point. Cliodhna, if she is also one herself (possibly though super unsure, but she also gets tagged with the Arisen mark on the map once you get to Convergence so maybe?***), just wants to be left alone with the person she loves. This part is waaaaaay beyond already my thumbtacks and strings theory above already though and part of the DragDog fun is running with your personal interpretation of everything available, so this bit is even more screaming into the void than everything above.

***) - Additional note that I failed to talk to her once that mark popped up originally, and in NG+ I killed the lesser dragon in Melve so Luz was like "lmao don't you remember killing it" and obviously Sigurd never goes to the tower to kill it so don't get his quest-- btw, don't recommend killing the lesser dragon when it shows up at Melve, pull your pawns off, let it fly away if its health is low enough! Sigurd deserves more screentime!-- and Cliodhna just had nothing to say beyond her general comments when went to talk to her too so it's likely I'm just missing a confirmation of this through my own failures.

the idea of the dd2 arisen (if they survive) not having their heart back appeals to me, the idea of failing your charge but succeeding in a greater one is delicious.