#and narratively he's very much her el and her steve the normal she can't go back to after the upside down stuff (like him wanting them to

[maddy-ferguson]

i don't like j0pper either but when people say joyce should've stayed with bob they always lose me because i have a hard time believing she even liked the man

[sevensided]

re: your post about mike singing to el vs steve and nancy. when i watch s3 i can't help but think how much the writers nailed down that mike and eleven don't understand each other and, logically, are much better as friends. all the scenes with them are obvious as fuck. but then i look at the fandom eating it up as soul mates and.. yikes.

Very great message. I like this very much.

I’m torn on Mileven. Don’t get me wrong: I do not ship them, at all. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I’m new to the fandom but even I know that Mileven stans can get heated, and I generally deplore any online harassment over something like a television show ship (it’s very childish to me). That being said, I do understand how, in canon, Mileven came around and how Mike believes he’s in love with her. The hints are right there in S1. They could have made anyone - Dustin, Lucas, or even Will - interested in El, but they didn’t. It was Mike. And, in a way, it’s because Mike has the most change to go through. He’s the one who has the most to lose (as he perceives it). I agree totally with other people who have talked about Mike’s comp het. In this sense, it’s completely believable that he would attach himself to El and enact the type of relationship he’s led to believe - by society and his family - that he should want.

In terms of Mileven fans... It’s probably naive of me to admit, but I didn’t realise just how young ST fans are. In a weird, meta kind of way, they’re living S3. Right? S3 was defined by seemingly out of character actions, conversations, a running thread of superficiality, pop culture, etc. Both Mike and El overreact and respond according to how they believe they should act (Mike, because he’s gay; and El, because she’s learning to be a person). Having Mike and El be endgame fits a neat, prescribed narrative of boy-gets-girl. ST is a lavish love letter to 80s tropes. If ST was made in the 80s, Mike and El would end up together. But we’re not in the 80s - it’s 2020. I think the Duffers did write a love letter to the 80s. But they’re also subverting those tropes and reinventing them in an entirely contemporary and fresh way. Mike and El being endgame doesn’t work for the story, one, and two, it’s not, I believe, the Duffers intention to reinvent the wheel(er) (ha ha) (sorry).

Probably the biggest piece of evidence that flies in the face of Mileven is El’s behaviour in S3. Logically, it should be when she and Mike are happiest. They’re finally together, they’re being “normal teenagers”, it’s a summer romance, et cetera. But they’re coming at it from different places. For Mike, it’s two seasons (years) worth of onscreen pining for a girlfriend to make him “normal” and to fit in. For El, it’s the very first time she’s experienced society. Of course she’s going to demur when Max eagerly asks if Mike is a good kisser - she not only literally doesn’t know, but she’s hoping he won’t be the last. El is at the start of her journey as an individual, and Mike believes El completes him as an individual. They’re not on the same wavelength. Another thing I’d draw on is the canon fact that El watches a lot of television and therefore consumes a lot of pop culture. The way she acts is, in many respects, shaped by television characters and storylines. It’s all very romantic and dramatic, because that’s what she thinks/believes romance to be. It reminds me of romantic comedies, like the genre, in general, and how in growing up young women are led to believe that this is what love should be. But then you do grow up, and you realise that love isn’t dramatic and crying and arguments at three a.m. (or whatever - I have not watched rom coms in a long time). It’s a specific, sanitised version of love that is easily consumable and designed to model women’s expectations in (heterosexual) love and relationships. It’s fantasy.

El is living out her fantasy. It’s not malicious and we shouldn’t look down on her character for, well, acting like a teenage girl. I disagree with Byler fans who hate El. I actually think she’s a marvelous character. But she is learning to be herself, and it’s evidenced that she doesn’t grow healthily with Mike. Her friendship with Max is extremely positive and I’m so happy they devoted a lot of time and sensitivity to that connection, because it’s so important to El’s development. I agree totally with you in that Mike and El would make much better friends. And while I highly doubt Mileven will remain canon, if they ever decided to make it so, the show would need to prove that Mike and El have a strong enough friendship to be a foundation for a heathy, mutually enjoyable, respecting relationship. And, I mean... two seasons isn’t a lot of time to do that in. It’s not impossible. But in my personal view it is unlikely that will eventuate.

This so got away from me... I didn’t realise how many feelings I still have about this! But thank you for your message. I agree that it is doubtful Mileven will stick around. I don’t advocate for ship wars or fandom fighting or whatever. I just think you have to look objectively at the show and think more broadly about what messages, large or small, are being told, and what hints have been dropped along the way. When you do that you do, at the very least, realise that Mileven won’t be endgame. Whether or not you then believe in Byler is something else!

[ub-sessed]

Billy Hargrove; or: What Happens When a Terrified Gay Boy Learns How to Act Straight from Watching West Side Story

I finally watched Stranger Things so I'm years behind everybody else, but I'm wondering:

What narrative purpose does Billy Hargrove serve?

To provide a nemesis for Steve? To flesh out Max's character? He doesn't have an arc of his own, so he can't be said to be anything more than a supporting character. But he gets WAY more screen time than the other supporting characters. We spend a lot of time with him away from any of our heroes, unlike say, Tommy or Mr. Clarke, who we pretty much only see from our heroes' POV.

And his acting choices are really different from all the others: he's totally over the top, a caricature of a tough guy, like he just stepped out of West Side Story. He's styled differently too, with the obvious bleach job and the earring and the shirt open down to his navel (my daughter during the basketball scene: "Why isn't he wearing a SHIRT??"); everybody else dresses normally. (It's not his fault that he always looks like he put on half a tube of mascara.)

Why does he blame Max for the move to Indiana? Why does she blame him? Why is he so fixated on Steve? Why does his character get built up so much only to end up unconscious and alone on the Byers' living room floor? His ending would imply that he was only supposed to provide a bad guy for Steve and Max (and by extension Lucas). Why are they the only ones who get a human bad guy? The other characters' conflicts are organic, with each other, arising naturally out of what each character wants (e.g. El wants freedom vs. Hopper wants her to be safe).

But with Billy it's just like, wtf? Which is clearly intentional, because that's how Steve reacts to him. We're supposed to see Billy as bizarrely over the top, we're supposed to find his fixation on Steve confusing. Or, you know, not, because I can't remember the last time I saw a more obviously gay character. It's like Billy is desperately (terrified) trying to play a straight guy, but he has no idea how, so it comes across as this bizarre caricature out of West Side Story.

Which is a very interesting story. This is an intriguing character. They gave us the scene with the dad. There's obviously a lot going on here. And then... they leave him unconscious on the floor? Cowed by Max? Nothing more than a symbol of her triumph over adversity? Why build him up so much if he's not going to get an arc? I feel totally cheated. I would rather have given up half of the Chicago story to get more character development for Billy.