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#but often when we are calling a dude feminine looking it's because he's clean shaven with smooth skin and very groomed eyebrows
baejax-the-great · 2 months
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Hello. How would you categorize Achilles/Patroclus' faces? (Traditionally speaking)Masculine/Feminine/Androgynous? Beautiful/Pretty/Handsome? Any more hcs on how do you picture their looks? Or does it differ among AUs?
Thank you, and have a nice weekend!
I don't know that I usually classify faces this way. I also have enjoyed a lot of different versions of Achilles and Pat and don't think any are particularly "wrong" or anything.
My first introduction into a visual representation of Patroclus was through Hades game, and I am partial to his design there. I also truly love @lady-forest's drawing of Pat here which is close to the Hades design, but a little different. Variations on Hades!Patroclus will always have me all heart-eyes.
A lot of how I envision their faces will depend on their age. Faces change a lot between the ages of 15 and 25. I had a silly post a while back about different artists' representations of Achilles as a girl in Skyros and how they had to choose to make him a hot girl or an ugly girl. Personally I enjoy the hot girl interpretations better.
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This one, where he's serving, is a personal fave. But passing for a girl at 15 is a lot easier than passing at 25. And I've known a few very pretty boys who grew into "masculine" looking men, so I don't know that you can really predict.
I've debated what Homer would mean while calling Achilles' the hottest dude in the army. Does he mean the masculine ideal? Is Achilles sort of a perfect average of all idealized traits? Or is he pretty in the way Helen is pretty? The latter seems less likely given the misogyny of the culture as well as Ajax being called the second hottest Achaean in the Odyssey, and at like seven feet tall and built like a tank, I don't know that anyone is depicting him as having feminine features. Another example I think of is Heracles. Based on the sheer number of lovers Heracles had, he was also considered hot as shit by both men and women, and again he's not ever depicted as particularly feminine.
Achilles is a bit different because he represents "youth" in the epic cycle. It's the reason he's rarely depicted with a beard even when he's an adult in a culture that values beards a lot. In that spirit, I tend to try to blend the "masculine" and "feminine" in my mind, a boy whose features could have been girlish who grows up into a beautiful man. So much of what we consider "feminine" in a man is more about styling/affect/the way he moves and carries himself than actual bare bones facial structure, anyway.
As for what I personally envision while writing, it does change depending on AU to an extent, but there are a few constants. Patroclus can and will grow a beard (depending on his age). Achilles cannot and won't. Patroclus has big, brown cow-eyes (in the Homeric sense). I liked Miller giving Achilles green eyes, so I stick with that. I like Pat having a bump in his nose. I give them both long hair, though Pat's is more subject to change. Pat has darker skin than Achilles.
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styledeepdive · 4 years
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The Body Types of Men
Hi there! Welcome to my Men’s Style Guide. Settle in, because we are about to take a long, hard look at the different body types of men, and what looks best on different types of guys. I do style reports primarily based on a system of body typing invented by a dude named David Kibbe so we call it the Kibbe system. The idea is that there are 5 main body types that are based on bone structure. The types are Dramatic (tall and narrow), Natural (tall and broad), Classic (a symmetrical blending of all the types), Romantic (small, rounded, and slightly wide), and Gamin (a chaotic mixture primarily of dramatic and romantic, typically quite small).    In this system we also talk about yin (rounded, soft, “feminine” features) and yang (prominent, sharp features, steep angles, and vertical lines).  Clothing recommendations are based on how much yin/yang mixture you have in your own body. No type is “better” than any other type, and your type does not change with age or weight. The following is MY INTERPRETATION of the body types. Some of these men are verified types by David Kibbe, some are simply my best guesses. My styling tips are based off of my own observations as well as information gleaned off of chatrooms and forums that discuss Kibbe body typing. This is not, in any way, an official Kibbe typing, just my opinions. There is not a lot of verified information on the body types of men, so I’m doing my best with what I got.   (From left to right, Dramatic, Natural, Classic, Romantic, and Gamin)
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So, let’s explore the main types a little further.
DRAMATICS   Dramatic men are tall and long, with an extremely sharp bone structure, and very straight, narrow, facial features. They have an overall combination of strong, sharp physicality, a cool reserve, and a charismatic power. They are the most sharp + angular of all the types. As actors, dramatic men are often cast as the evil genius or the aloof, brooding hero.  Sometimes both!  Benedict Cumberbatch, Christopher Walken, Daniel Craig, and Mads Mikkelsen are Dramatics.   
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  The thing that most people first notice about dramatics is how visually striking they are. They can appear almost “brutal” to the eye. They have long vertical lines, with long arms and legs, and long faces, often with narrow eyes, prominent noses, and/or thin lips. They faces can appear quite chiseled to the eye, as their bone structure is sharp and protruding. They often have chiseled features, high prominent cheekbones, and overall read as lean, even when they gain some fat or put on some muscle. They are usually quite tall, at least 6 feet.  Dramatic men look their best in stiff fabrics with clean, long lines of color.  Large lapels and high, stiff necklines look great on them.  Often these lines are used to further highlight their prominent cheekbones.  Their hair looks good slicked back and bold, or sculpted in geometrically in some way. Monochromatic outfits look incredibly chic on them.  Long stiff coats look amazing on them. Minimalist outfits look best on them.  Go for bold, clean, and sleek lines.  This includes the face: seems like clean shaven is more flattering than facial hair, generally.
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When they are photographed, they are typically posed in a stern manner, not smiling. Usually their cheekbones are highlighted by a steep, straight angle near the face.  Often they are shot in black and white to maximize their contrast and natural contours. On other body types this severe style can look a little silly, but on dramatics it looks just right. 
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Dramatic men look a little weird in overly soft looks, drapey looks, beachy looks, boho looks, or any fabric that isn’t stiff enough to compliment their structured body. Avoid bisecting the body in half with a color block. Avoid sloppy untucked looks. Avoid colorful, contrasting details near the face.  Avoid overly colorful prints and busy patterns in general. Avoid also overly slim, hipster-cut looks, you need a little room in your clothes to look your best.
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 To look your most memorable, create long, unbroken lines of color as much as possible.  
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A boxy wool trench coat with a stiff collar would also look amazing on any Dramatic, and could be your signature piece. Go for it.
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 Soft Dramatics Soft Dramatics are exactly what they sound like: a person who has a tall, angular dramatic skeleton but with more flesh on their bones, so giving an overall softer appearance to the body. They can be a bit wider than true Dramatics, as well.  Matthew McConaughey, RuPaul, John Travolta, Christian Bale, Nicholas Cage, Alan Rickman, and MTT are Soft Dramatics.
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Because they by definition they are a tall or tall-appearing type, they look great in monochromatic looks as well, but with a softer, more luscious, shinier fabric in the sleeves, neckline, or otherwise accenting the look to soften it.  Here you can really see the long vertical line still present in the bodies, but you can also see an overall softer appearance to the body, especially in the face - fleshier cheeks, larger eyes, fuller lips - and typically styling themselves with a softer, more rounded outline.
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In this photo I hope you can see how much softer and fleshier the face appears to us than it does on pure Dramatics, whose skin is much tighter over the bones.  This is not a weight thing, all of these men are quite lean - this is just a way that the flesh forms over the bones.   Still, at the end of these day these men have dramatic skeletons, with prominent noses, jaws, and brows, and long arms and legs - and that’s important to remember when trying to identify them.
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Soft Dramatics can dress in Dramatic lines, but also want to acknowledge their extra yin (rounded, soft features) by adding in some softer, rounder lines to their clothes and hair.    One way to do this is by using fun rounded accessories, like oversized glasses or big bow ties, scarfs or even ascots. Now - I’m not entirely sure if Ru Paul is soft dramatic or dramatic, but this picture of him, where he’s posing with himself in drag, is one of my favorites, because you can see how Kibbe’s soft dramatic style suggestions work regardless of gender presentation - Here Ru is showcasing long lines of color but with added, rounded elements (hair, glasses, scarves, neckline, even the curve of his bald head) in both outfits.
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One thing I noticed about soft dramatics is that they can really pull off the sweater-underneath-a-jacket look.  This makes sense: stiff and structured shape of the blazer plus the softer, more rounded shape of the hoodie around the face is a nice compliment to the yin/yang balance.  
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I also found that cowboy hats looked pretty good on Soft Dramatic actors, as it’s stiff and bold enough for them but also rounded.  I thought that was interesting.
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Yup, it checks out for Ru too! Not his most memorable look for sure, but wouldn’t you agree he pulls it off surprisingly well?
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And in conclusion, here’s a few more of MTT looking dramatic and soft at the same time, perfectly illustrating this body type (check out those glasses!). Thanks, buddy.
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NATURALS Naturals are characterized  by broad shoulders and a muscular body type, with an angular but broad bone structure, and wide facial features that tend to be blunt edged. They are a naturally athletic body type that often looks pretty strong, muscular and slightly wide, even when overweight.  They have a casual physicality, and a fresh and open essence. They can be moderate in height to very tall.  
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  Natural Men look good in natural fabrics, casual outlines, matte sheens, and need a bit of space around the neckline. A typical uniform for a natural man is a v-neck t-shirt and tapered jeans.  Denim + suede jackets look great on them.    Button down shirts should have one or two buttons undone (at least) to look best.   
Naturals are split into two groups - Flamboyant Naturals and Soft Naturals. Flamboyant Naturals Flamboyant Naturals are usually on the taller side, with a bit more angularity than soft naturals. They may have a sharp nose or chiseled jaw, or longer arms and legs. They are very wide through the chest the torso; they are what we often refer to as “barrel-chested.” Because of their extra yang, Flamboyant Naturals can pull off more dramatic lines than soft naturals, but they both still look their best in a more relaxed, casual style.  Flamboyant Naturals are typically quite athletic, and it doesn’t take much for them to gain quite a bit of mass.  Even though Flamboyant Naturals can look great in suits, they just look the most themselves, their most charismatic when they’re a little bit scruffy. Here’s Harrison Ford in various states of unzipped-ness, for your consideration.  Give the people what they want, Harrison! These men, when actors, are cast as superheros. Chris Hemsworth,  Winston Duke, and Hugh Jackman are all Flamboyant Naturals (although only one, Hugh Jackman, is verified by David Kibbe).  Here they are in their “natural” state (har har).
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And here they are doing that whole adventurer thing that looks so good on them:
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And here they are a bit more cleaned up:
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Even though Flamboyant Naturals can look great in suits, they just look the most themselves, their most charismatic when they’re a little bit scruffy. Here’s Harrison Ford in various states of unzipped-ness, for your consideration.  Give the people what they want, Harrison! 
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  Because of their extra yang, Flamboyant Naturals can pull off come crisp, tapered lines.  Matte finishes are still best. A slim-fitting, tapered silhouette on Harrison Ford looks really nice here.
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Soft Naturals Soft Naturals are a little softer in flesh, a little smaller in build, and a little “cuter” than Flamboyant Naturals. They really look their best in matte fabrics and with a significant amount of room at the neckline. Loosely tucked in shirts look nice. Fabrics like suede and cotton look great. These men, when actors, are often cast as the rough-and-tumble, lovable but slightly scruffy hero. Brad Pitt, Naveen Andrews, Tom Cruise, and George Clooney are all Soft Naturals.  
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Soft naturals look so good with loose, rounded draping that photographers will literally pose them in bathrobes, or with water splashed on them. They’re the only type i found with professional photos like these! I think you can see even here that the more relaxed, the more tousled the look is, the more correct it looks and feels.  A little bit of drape goes a long way.   Always give your head and neck a little room to breathe. Rounded collars or soft v-necks with a little bit an undone feel to them look fantastic on you.  
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Matte fabrics like suede look better than shiny, reflective fabrics like smooth leather on all Natural types.  
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I think that’s because Soft Naturals read as “earthy,” and we want to see them in down to earth fabrics and colors.  Tom Cruise and Naveen Andrews both demonstrate great soft natural looks here. 
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Another consistent trait of soft natural is that loose and draped looks better than high and stiff around the face and neck.  If this is consistently true for you, then that’s a decent clue that you may be a soft natural.  Or if you like to take your shirt off as often as possible.  That’s also a clue.
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All Natural men look great with some pigment in their skin (a tan), some facial hair,  and a scruffy, undone look to the hair.  Anything too sculpted will seem stuffy on them. They are most often posed in motion, or in a way that looks candid, because otherwise they can look a bit stiff. CLASSICS Classics are balanced between the extremes of Yin and Yang. They are characterized by a symmetrical body type, with a tapered, even bone structure, and very regular, evenly spaced facial features. They are often photographed highlighting their cool, reserved essence. Pure Classics are pretty rare, they usually still have a slight undercurrent of either yin or yang.  John Slattery (below, left) is a Soft Classic. He is primarily balanced but with a yin undercurrent. You can see he is slightly softer, more tapered, more rounded, and more delicate than John Hamm (below, right) who is a Dramatic Classic, and has a bolder, more yang undercurrent.  Overall, however, both men read as moderate and symmetrical overall. 
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Mad men is a fun show to watch for men’s fashion because they cast a bunch of classic actors and then put them in a bunch of classic suits, at least in the beginning.  John Hamm and John Slattery wore the classic suits in Mad Men so well that they literally revived the grey suit in the mid 2010s (the sale of suits doubled between 1998 - 2014, in part due to the show).  I love Mad Men for many reasons, but one of my favorite things they did was show, not tell, how Roger Sterling and Don Draper fit into their era (and then were subsequently left behind) simply through the lines of their clothes.
Classics are easily overwhelmed by bold colors and patterns, or asymmetrical details.  We can see here how unnatural John Slattery looks in this outfit on the right, and how balanced he looks in clean, simple lines on the left.  It’s clear simply through the lines of his clothes that  by the end of the show Roger Sterling (John Slattery) no longer dominates the world around him, and feels unnatural and awkward in it.
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In real life John Hamm often tries to experiment with a more whimsical style than what his dramatic classic lines suggest he should wear.   I think the effect is that his specialness is lost, and he looks pretty unremarkable/overwhelmed in many of his chosen looks.  You can really see here that it is so easy to overwhelm his face and body unless he is in the simplest, crispiest of designs!!
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I’d venture a guess that Daniel Dae Kim is a Dramatic Classic as well. He definitely has some Drama to his face, but I’d argue his whole body reads as overall moderate.  He is dignified and stoic looking in a similar manner as John Ham, and he looks fantastic in simple, clean designs. 
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Idris Elba is another strongly Classic man, possibly a Pure Classic.  I believe Idris Elba was voted “sexiest man alive” at some point, and it’s not hard to see why. This is a man who looks equally at home on the red carpet or in jeans and a t-shirt.
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I mean, my God.  So elegant.  So stylish.  So chic! 
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But something funny happens if we try to mess with Idris Elba’s timeless look.  First of all, any attempt to overtly sexualize him backfires spectacularly.  The photos below look awkward and even a little vulgar. I mean, what even is this? 
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Here Idris is actually demonstrating a reverse-Harrison Ford:  Even though Idris is beautifully sculpted by the gym and by God, he really looks his personal best when he’s buttoned back up and in simple, clean clothes. 
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Similarly, an overly soft or whimsical look on Idris is certainly not his most memorable look, and I’d argue looks a little awkward on him.
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The lesson here is that to look their best, Classics need to stick to simple cuts, minimal detail, clean lines, and one or two colors per outfit.  When they do that, they will come off as being effortlessly elegant and chic, and all eyes in the room will be on them.  If you’re a classic: stick to basics! ROMANTICS Ah! Romantic Men.  A misunderstood type, with many stereotypes that we will work to dispel. Romantic men are moderate to small, with a soft physicality and a magnetic essence.  Their bone structure is delicate and smallish with a tendency towards wideness. Their facial bones are small and delicate, and their facial features can be lush, full, and sensual.  I think, because of our gender-normative culture, that some men might resist being typed as a romantic. But they shouldn’t!! Romantic men are absolutely glorious.
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Romantic men look best when they wrap themselves in softer, lush, fuzzy fabrics.  They look amazing in scarves, sweaters, lightweight to medium weight jackets, and with longer, rounded hair cuts.  Despite what many might assume, this is what highlights their male energy the most!   Kit Harrington is a really great example of this.  He looks best wrapped in furs and with long curly hair, and every time he or his stylist try to “man-up” his look (pictured below), it can get a little awkward.
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To me, these looks end up accomplishing the opposite of what is intended: Kit looks alternately a bit stuffed, a bit gawky, and a bit tiny all at the same time.  However, as soon as we put him in his lines, his male energy becomes absolutely breathtaking: 
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One quick way to help identify a romantic man is to see how good he looks in a scarf.  Not many men look good with soft draping next to their face, but Romantics always do, the more plush the better.  
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Steven Yuen is not a verified Romantic by Kibbe but I really think he fits the bill.  He has a short veritcal line, is slightly wide, with rounded eyes, a wider nose, a soft mouth, a tapered jaw, and looks best in big sweaters and wooly fabrics.  
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Leonardo DiCaprio is the quintessential Romantic man who battles against his nature. In his quest to be taken more seriously as an actor he tried his best to shed his “pretty-boy” image and look as sleek and sculpted and brutal as possible.  Ironically, he looks his most dynamic doing exactly the opposite.
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Leo so hates wearing anything even suggesting Romantic these days it was a struggle to find a picture of him wearing a scarf when i did the collage of romantics in scarves. However, I found this incredible photograph that Annie Liebowitz took of Leo where she knew to drape him in something soft to actually help bring out his male energy.  The combination of soft and brutal in this photo is absolutely breathtaking, and so, so memorable.  Leo has not looked “memorable” for about 25 years, in my opinion, because he has refused to allow himself to be photographed or filmed in a vulnerable, soft way for decades. Ok… that’s not entirely fair. The closest he has came to nailing his lines in any movie since Titanic was actually the Revenant, because at least he had long hair and they draped him in fur.  Mere coincidence that he was finally memorable enough in the judge’s minds to win the Oscar?? :P
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Theatrical Romantic If a Romantic has some dramatic influence to them and has some sharper bones and a thinner silhouette, then they are called Theatrical Romantic. They are primarily soft, like Romantics, but with a narrower silhouette and some sharper bones.  They can wear sharper lines to go with their dramatic influence, but should remember to keep fabrics loose and soft. Orlando Bloom, Prince, Kurt Cobain and Johnny Depp are Theatrical Romantics.
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Theatrical Romantic men can wear all manner of ornamentation and look great. Rings, necklaces, hats, boas, big round sunglasses, flowers, polka-dots, etc. Hair looks great when it’s long and maybe a bit straighter than Romantics would style it (but still reading as flowy). They can really have fun with eclectic looks, bo-ho looks, or glam looks.  And they really do look their personal best when they do this. 
Casual looks are elevated by adding jewelry, tattoos, bandanas, and by using lightweight t-shirts that have some cling but also some drape.
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Johnny Depp really knows how to pull off posing with a rug. Imagine Idris Elba or Harrison Ford trying to do that.
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Here’s an idea: learn to play guitar just so you can use it as an aesthetic accessory! Just kidding.  
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But it does seem like an awful lot of iconic musicians are theatrical romantics. Prince sure figured out how to make it work for him.
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And Kurt Cobain!  People forget, but Kurt Cobain was of moderate height and had a very delicate, soft bone structure.  Look at his face. Look at how beautiful, how feminine, and how soft the facial features are.  Notice also, though, how sharp some of the facial bones are: like the chin, the thin nose, and the jaw line. 
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Kurt Cobain was the anti-fashion style icon whose signature look shaped an entire generation’s aesthetic. The Kurt Cobain look still haunts all manner of musician to this day! And no one was more freaked-out by this than Kurt himself, who would tell reporters over and over again that this was just how he dressed. He would tell people his jeans had holes in them because buying new ones seemed like a waist of money.  He got his sweaters from thrift stores with rips in them because he didn’t give a fuck.  His hair was long because he was too lazy to cut it.  WHY THE FUCK WAS EVERYONE TRYING TO COPY HIM? 
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Who knows how true this really is, but I will say that by around 1994 it does seem like Kurt Cobain was deliberately trying to troll the fashion editors who wrote about him by slapping on the most aggressively ugly, often feminine clothes he could find and daring people to copy him.
The ironic thing is that by adding mix and match soft eclectic accessories all over his body, Kurt was actually just making himself look better and better. That’s the weird magic of the theatrical romantic body type.  And when that accidental ornateness was met with a bit more openness and vulnerability in his face, the effect was that he looked incredibly himself, incredibly memorable, and frankly timeless.
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Gamin We come now to Gamin men, who are characterized by their combination of opposites. Their yin is in their size and facial features, and they can read as small and boyish. Their yang is in their body type and bone structure. They are an overall combination of opposites on the yin and yang scale; sharply delicate physicality along with a fresh and zesty essence.  
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For some people it can be a little hard to tell gamins and theatrical romantics apart at first just by the body typing. But the lines don’t lie: if you look best in high necklines, crisp patterns, contrasted colors, and extremely precision fitted silhouettes then you are a gamin!   Gamins really do have a youthful, playful energy that translates into photographs. It’s best if they are photographed in motion, but if not in motion then at least laughing or glaring or doing something energetic.   When there is a mischevious look in their eyes their whole face lights up and feels correct. There are two sub categories of gamins: soft gamins and flamboyant gamins. 
Soft Gamins
Soft Gamins read as small, thin, boyish, and yet still with an undercurrent of soft and rounded. They can have softer facial features, softer flesh, shorter arms and legs, rounder eyes, softer lips.  Fred Astaire is Kibbe’s only verified soft gamin but I think Bruno Mars and maybe Daniel Radcliffe fit the bill.
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If you are a soft gamin, precision fitted clothing with high necklines and colorful, contrasting patterns is the name of the game.  Skinny, cropped pants look fantastic. Tight fitting polo shirts look fantastic.  Thin ties with fun patterns look fantastic. Pocket squares and other fun accessories look great as long as it looks crisp and fresh. Hair looks best when it’s slightly tousled and playful looking. 
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Gamins run into trouble when they try to be too rugged, oversized, or casually dressed. It’s simply not their best look, and baggy clothes will actually highlight their smallness, creating the opposite of what i imagine would be the intended effect.
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When dressing for events, go for as precision fitted as possible. This is not an exaggeration.  This is the silhouette that will allow you to shine in a room full of other people.  It will look crisp and correct on you, and everything else will dull your shine.
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Flamboyant Gamin
Flamboyant Gamins are similar to Soft Gamins but with a slightly more angular build. They can have longer arms and legs, more squarish jaw, more prominent noses.   They still need crisp, sharp outlines to look fresh, but have a little more wiggle room to play with bolder shapes and different fabrics.  Bold prints look amazing on them, high contrast looks are incredibly chic on them. Rami Malek, Frank Sinatra, and Neil Patrick Harris are flamboyant gamines. 
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Things like zebra print, pointy shoes, and super high crisp collars look amazing on Flamboyant Gamins. They get into trouble again when they try to go for a sporty or overly casual look.  
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Like soft gamins, keep event-wear fitted, but also go for bold, crisp geometrics when possible.  Stiff bow ties and long thin ties look equally wonderful.
Conclusion + Sources + Resources Whether you’re a dude who’s trying to figure out your style, a partner of a dude who’s trying to help, or someone who’s just starting to experiment with menswear for any reason, I hope you’ve found this post helpful.  Please let me know what type you think you are in the comments!   When researching for this post I found the following websites + youtube videos to be incredibly helpful:
Aly Art’s video “Do Men Have Body Types?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yHTkciJGLg The Sacred in the Secular: Men’s Kibbe Types https://charitysplace.wordpress.com/2019/06/26/male-kibbe-types/ Truth is Beauty: Some Thoughts on the Style Types of Male Celebs https://www.truth-is-beauty.com/blog/some-thoughts-on-the-style-types-of-male-celebs On the Enduring Influence of Mad Men Style: https://therake.com/stories/style/enduring-influence-mad-men-style/ -
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