#i don't want Hopper to die either but like - story stuff and letting others be heroes too and all that!!

[highfantasy-soul]

So I've seen some (I assume) show-only people really, really upset about Hopper's death. Like, calling the show runners sick, awful, disgusting people for it. So, insane as it is, I'm here to defend the murder of fluffy canines.

Wolves in the Wheel of Time world are not cute little companion puppies that are just so sweet and innocent and perfect. Killing a wolf is not killing a helpless creature that is relying solely on human kindness to survive, nor is it done just for shock value.

Wolves would be VERY UPSET if you viewed them this way! They are just as independent and capable as any of the human characters - they have their own society, lives, and beliefs. They fight in battle.

Hopper wasn't just standing next to Perrin as his little dog on a leash and then was murdered out of the blue - he chose to join the battle and attack an enemy. The enemy then killed him as he was seeking to kill one of them. Hopper died in battle just like any human would have (and did many times over in the story).

Yes, the Whitecloaks and people at large do only view them as animals - dangerous animals that can kill them - not as equals to humans, but Perrin does understand their importance as beings in their own right. He was reacting to Hopper's death not as a 'you just killed my pet out of the blue!' but as a 'you just killed a member of my family (pack)'.

Does it suck to see canines killed on screen? Yeah. Does that mean that if a story includes the death of a canine that means the writers are disgusting, sick, cruel people because 'killing the dog' has gotten a bad rep in media? No.

Including wolfbrothers means including their role as beings who are also fighting against the shadow. That means some are going to die in battle. Just as Uno's death was significant and meaningful to our characters, just as Rand's mom dying was meaningful, Ingtar's death, Karene and Steppin's death, etc, are all meaningful to the story and the characters, so is Hopper's death.

If the death of a canine is triggering to you, I get it. Torture scenes and graphic depictions of violence are triggering to me. But that doesn't mean that I thought the showrunners were disgusting, sick people for having death in the show, or lingering on people's last moments and giving them their due rather than brushing right past the death.

If the death of any being other than a human - especially canines - really gets to you, then The Wheel of Time probably isn't for you as the wolves play a very important role in the fight against the Shadow. They're warriors just like the people are which means they're going to fall in battle too.

I know this post is probably only for a very tiny fraction of people who watched the episode, but I felt it needed to be said. Calling writers bad people for wolf death is just wild to me.

[beepboop358]

Hi! (Every time I see your name on my dash Bibbitybobbityboo comes into my head? I feel like your analysis fairy godmother anyway so it fits)

But, I feel like I took something away from Season 4 that I haven't seen many people talk about? Or any to be quite honest. And I just wondered if you had an opinion on it?

So we know the Duffers are Nerds(tm) and think that being Nerdy is like, the ultimate burden to bear apparently. But, particularly over the last two seasons I've been noticing the Superhero/marvel references, like your previous Anon said, about spiderman? Just little stuff, like Joyce and Hopper in S3 doing a Captain America and arranging a date only to have Hopper "die" before they can. All of Eleven's refs, Mikes etc, you get the point.

But I am now, 100% certain that Eleven is going to die "saving the world" and she'll get Iron Man'd.

I am absolutely positive. We caught a glimpse of it with Eddie for sure, but the sheer amount of Hero Insecurity she's had just kind of sticks out. She was supposed to die anyway in S1 so whilst everyone in their corner of the internet is banging on about MildEven being Endgame, all I can think about is actual End Game. And how I can absolutely see an El death scene on the horizon, because let's face it, she's the character that has "no place" and who "struggles for purpose" and to a GA she holds a lot of emotional capital, whislt maintaining this constant aura of other that wouldn't make her death seem totally tragic and pointless.

From a writing POV, the way the Duffers lean in terms of story telling, I am absolutely positive El will either die or be "banished" to the upside down mirroring 001.

Also, if we don't see a Red Dragon next season I'll be very surprised. All the colour coding and Will's drawing? The Red Dragon is Chaotic Evil in DnD as well so that smacks of something they would go with.

Idk, this turned into a ramble. I hope you have a lovely night and I am very sorry for thoughtdumping on you <3 xxxx

hello!

ahaha I kinda like that, has a nice ring to it LOL. And i am unworthy of that title but thank you for the compliment aha <333.

It really is hilarious in the worst way that they seem to think being a nerd is the ultimate burden to bear LOL. There is quite a bit of Marvel-esc influence this season. And El is doing the Iron Man Pose a lot this season too..., so you bringing up that she'll get Iron Man'd at the end seems like an eerie connection and possibly foreshadowing... El was supposed to die in season 1 to fulfill the E.T. parallel, and assuming they don't just keep her alive to do spin-offs, I think it's pretty likely she'll die at the end of the show. I think it's possibly her death somehow mirrors 001's "death", but I do see her having a big hero moment and sacrificing herself for her friends. I think El's death would be very emotional, but there is a narrative point to it. I love El tho and I just want to see her happy but...

I think we could see a red dragon next season too. I hope that painting was foreshadowing for something!

hope you're well! xx (no need to worry about thought dumping it's always welcome ,3)

[aurelion-cerulean]

We all know that S5 is going to be going back to its roots. It's supposed to emulate S1 from what we have been told.

But what does that actually look like?

I think three big things:

Run Times and Episode Count

There has been debate on the number being either 8 or 9 (1&3 were 8, 2&4 were 9). I considered 10 as a new rounded number to finish it off, but then I realized that 8+9+8+9+8=42.

If you’re new here, 42 is the secret to the universe in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Universe. It’s big sci-fi nerd stuff. So I can’t pass up this opportunity. Also the first season is 8 episodes, and since they are trying to return to that Season 1 vibe, this would make sense to me.

Also. 42 is divisible by 7, and 7 is tied to Will. If Will is the MC for season 5, then this just helps strengthen the choice.

Averaging at 86 min per ep, S4 was a monster. If we take out eps 7,8,&9 (1.5 roughly, 1.5hr, 2.5hr), the average is a beautiful 73min per episode. S1 was 50min on average. Better yet, S2 and S3 were also about 55min on average. If we look at run times alone. S4 says that it's 9 episodes but if we compare the average times... S4 when compared to S1 has (roughly) 6 episodes worth of content. So S4 is like 15 episodes in a trench coat trying to pass itself off as 9.

Goodness.

We know that they, the creators, want the episodes to be shorter (possible if everything is in Hawkins and no new information really has to be established). We also know that the last episode is going to be 2hrs, or so they say, as the grand finale. I really don’t think that they will be able to drop down to 50 min again. Regardless of the information they need to include. After the spectacle of S4, they need to GO BIG. And I don't just mean the two hour finale.

I suspect that this season is going to be brilliant in cinematography, horror, and effects. It's going to make you sit on the edge of your seat in awe. AND it has to be a good story ending.

I think that the average episode time will be 60min + the 2hr finale. It lets them drop down in time, and gives them the room for the spectacle. It also doesn't highlight just how much of a monster S4 was in terms of time. IDK but having that season as this big outlier in time per ep, feels strange. IDK if they care, but I wouldn't want one of my seasons to stick out like a sore thumb like that.

2. Return to the Small Town Horror

Now, this show has been scary the entire way through. We've had monsters and unknowns, but in some way it hasn't felt the same as S1. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this, but I knew, going into S4, that El would save the day. The question was about how. Not so much if or who. I also knew that the main cast would live.

Both of these things need to be established early on as NOPEs in order to really make S5 scary. We need to really feel that the characters can die (not just us panicking out here on social media thinking it, because they said no new characters). We also need to see that El can't just simply power up and we'll be good. She tried and failed. But she wasn't ready. So she powers up again. She still needs to fail. Why? Because we expect her to win and this time that's not how it works. (I have a whole thing on Defeating Vecna specifically, and the thematics of the Upside Down, that explain that I think this will be more of a rejection of ideologies.)

This season is going to need to feel close, crawl-up-your-skin-breath-on-the-back-of-your-neck scary. It's going to need to replicate the S1, "what the heck is going on?" And the, "No! The Monster! It's right there," scary. Now, how do we do that when we already have all the cards on the table? I have a few ideas of how they can achieve that (but I need to double check S1 first).

3. Single Narrative Focus

Note that this ties into point 2.

In S1 it was "find Will." Well, Nancy was off doing her Nancy thing, but for the others it was Find Will. By S4 we had: get Hopper, Find El, Figure out Vecna (and that's simplifying it). And really, in S2 and S3 we slowly turned this way from the single narrative to this complex narrative. It was an evolution outwards as the world expanded, and it's not bad, but we did get a lot.

However, now everyone is back in Hawkins. The return to the single narrative is EASY. They're all in Hawkins. The villain is Vecna. There are no if-ands-or-buts about it. We know who he is, why he is, how he is, and where he is. All the questions? Answered.

The issue is this: now what?

Everyone is together. How do we split them up when they know that's the wrong choice? Reasonably speaking, there is no reason for them to do this. They don't need to investigate (they know the villain). They don't need to figure out where he is (there is a whole cloud over Hawkins). They are already unified as a group, physically.

Note that I say physically. I've said this before. I will say it again. They are not unified mentally. Will? Used El as a proxy for his feelings. Mike and El? On the rocks. Νancy and Jonathan? Haven't spoken to each other about their issues. Dustin just saw Eddie die. Max is in a coma. Lucas watched that happen. Joyce and Hopper just arrived but they don't really know what's going on. Murray is Murray. Steve just dropped that infobomb in Nancy's hands and was like "deal with this as you will." Robin is probably the only one chill.

They are the furthest from unified as a group, mentally, as they could be. It's for this reason that I actually think that the focus of this season will not be "destroy Vecna" but rather "unify." With Vecna being the embodiment of rejection, isolation, and fear (see my Upside Down write up), the only way to combat that is to face their demons and come together as a group mentally too. Fighting separately for the same goal is not good enough. Not for this fight.

It's really funny because in most of the seasons I'll yell at the screen like "JUST TALK." Because if they just shared information lol. So many issues would be solved. Guess what? S4 Vecna squad does that. Nancy still does go off on her own to follow up on a lead, but ultimately, they do talk about everything. From the beginning, they are unified front in that regard. Things are working right, but they still fail because it's not the whole group.

Big horror trope? Person who goes off alone dies? Good thing our main cast hasn't done that before and almost died... very strange that it is a theme of this show too. Almost like, they shouldn't be operating solo, or running off on their own. Almost like they need to be unified every single season for things to work in the end. And just maybe. Maybe. This season, they need to see eye to eye and face their demons and support each other as they do that. IDK. Maybe that's a reach.

Sarcasm aside, I think that S5 will be about them coming together and solving the problem as a full team, but that also means that people are going to have to face themselves and their personal internal struggles. And with Vecna's reach pretty much everywhere, I wouldn't be surprised that we get more visions by the others, seeing things and then having to face their emotions regarding those things. AND then getting the support of the group, as they do so. They don't have to get over the feelings, but they will see that they're not alone and that they don't have to face it alone. That they don't have to be scared alone. (How many times do I need to repeat alone? Vecna is the embodiment of acting solo. In order to defeat his ideology, they can't do what he does.)

I think they'll be split up again, but not by their own choice. Something will happen, probably due to miscommunication, and then the party is split and has to come back together. They will do so, and whatever things they were hiding will be said, because they can't risk not saying it. They can't risk not facing it. Not when the big bad is on the horizon and there might not be another chance.

But at the end of the day, the monster is no longer in the dark and no longer hiding in the scary place. It is where everyone can see and they have to face it openly. (If that's not the biggest symbolism HERE I AM neon light. IDK what is.)

Now this, in my mind, can be done through the horror tropes (see point 2) and fear. Visions, monsters, etc. Getting them to talk and understand each other. I need to think about this a lot more to really see how I think it could be done, but there is a good possibility of this with pacing, tension, lighting, and music.

These are the three things I think we can expect from that return to S1 comment by the creators. I'll be back later with a better idea of the horror tropes and how they might be used to make things scary this season when we already know what lurks in the dark. Or, if someone else wants to... Tag me! I want to see!