#let's not even go about jaimesansa

[janiedean]

i remember your villain origin story re: robb and i also remember all the associated metas about sansa painting her as this massively intelligent lady when she's 11 saying that she didn't say the truth about joff during the whole wolf incident is because she was aware of the political implications and how joff would behave and she has this whole betrothed role to fulfil and she's actually protecting arya by lying and ned is the one to blame AND arya is also to blame because she was needling the future prince and she is too stupid to realize that is dangerous etc. BUT sansa is also an 11 yr old so she made a mistake by going to cersei in book 1 and telling her about ned's plans like ???? pick a side??? lol.

i know sansa got a lot of hate for the wolf + cersei thingy but really it's not that deep. she had a huge crush on joff+ had a huge dream of being this storybook princess + got scared about the whole wolf incident and didnt wanna be hated by joff and cersei whom she adored + idealized, wasn't on the best of terms with arya. and hence she did a dumb 11 yr old mistake. which we also view primarily from arya's pov who really didn't do anything wrong in that one incident so ofcourse readers judge sansa for it. it's not that deep. but you cant go both ways and claim she is some mastermind at 11 while arya is dumb and ned irresponsible for letting arya play around dangerously while at the same time argue that sansa was 11 and made a mistake at the end. that's deliberately misreading EVERY OTHER character to prop up your fave - robb, arya, ned, theon, jon. (not to mention sansa also continuously blames arya and nymeria for the incident in the later book iirc but she has a thing about misremembering stressful periods so).

this has honestly been going on for a looong while. i used to stan sansa and it's true that she got a lot of misogynistic hate in the earlier seasons but the way some stans *cough*yourvillainoriginlady*cough* would behave towards every other character was just ugh. also the latter crop of j*onsa shippers from s6 onwards had a tendency to play down arya and jon's bond too. (the show can be blamed for that partially given that we didn't get jeyne!arya and jon forsaking his vows to rescue arya + giving sansa the "lone wolf dies but the pack survives" line which is literally arya's theme line but yeah). and i'm not even getting into reducing brienne and arya to qween sansa's swords like they're only there to serve sansa lmfao and shipping her with every character that's supposed to be good looking even if it makes 0 sense (jaime, jon, gendry) while ignoring canonical love interests (sandor and tyrion) as if the same problems of age + power + incest don't exist in their ships lol.

good thing I'm not the only one who remembers her and her absurd takes on just about everything not counting that one time she wrote that letter to EW because sansa showed cleavage in her cover and then called ramsay psychotic in it, had to emend because that's not how it works and then apologized for having been offensive but sure af she didn't apologize to me when she called me psychotic for telling her that her robb opinions were literally made up but GREAT TIMES X°DDD and I mean there was the amazing 'robb obv doesn't care about his sister or he'd have known she was being manipulated when he got her letter' and like I'm the least person to blame sansa for falling for it bc she was eleven and cersei is cersei and ofc she had no idea what she was doing but... how was robb supposed to know that X°DDDDDDD also no one is a political genius at 11 and it's all right like that but go and tell her that...

also agreed re the wolf incident but honestly like sansa getting hate for it or for anything she did during agot is stupid bc you don't hate an eleven year old for being an eleven year old we all were like that at some point??? but at the same time bashing on arya for that is like... bruh what the fucking fuck did she ever do to you???

that's deliberately misreading EVERY OTHER character to prop up your fave - robb, arya, ned, theon, jon.

I mean again robb was painfully obvious but the thing is that like... usually putting down other chars to prop up your fave means you like your fave for the wrong reasons since it means you never talk about the actual good things abt your fave (I mean these people live assuming that sansa's kindness isn't what actually propels her/is making sure she survives/is what will eventually be what gives her the upper hand in the end but no I have to read it was ic that she gave ramsay to the dogs in the show ffff) and you don't have to prop down everyone else or their bonds with other chars to like.. make your point? anyway sansa used to be in my asoiaf top ten now she's more top fifteen bc the show soured me but like I love booksansa and I 100% stan her, I was done with the show version by the end of S6 so I'm not even going there and the thing about showtruthing but then saying the books will be like that... needs to stop. also I'mma not going to touch the arya and brienne can only be in her qg arguments to make sense of their being gnc/into swords because honestly I have no force of will nor strength to get into why that discussion is not as progressive as ppl think it is but I think for me that was the straw breaking the camel's back if I wasn't already fed up with the casual ableism at sandor and tyrion and whatever else *raises hands*

[janiedean]

(anon sorry but i don’t wanna risk that post going on their tag I’m replying with the screen)

for a lot of reasons but if you want the short list

I read some just to see what was the deal and none of those fics who were post-canon even mentioned brienne or sandor when brienne conveniently spent affc almost dying to find sansa for jaime and I’m automatically suspicious of anything that denies the importance of brienne in that narrative

it makes no sense because other than the fact that they have a way worse and more uncomfortable age difference than most ships people bitch about for the exact same reason they have no reason to even like each other that way

sansa’s entire sl is about realizing that nice looks are not automatically the same as good and if grrm is thematically coherent there is No Way that sansa ends up romantically with a standard hot person because that goes against everything that storyline establishes. and sansa’s two main rships in that sense are with sandor and tyrion, who are, wow, not conventionally attractive people and are downright defined by other people as monstrous, but she can see good in both of them

in that sense, if you wanna ship sansa and a lannister, tyrion makes 100% more sense than jaime sorry not sorry, and to me jaimesansa looks like a very convenient way to pair up the hot stark and the hot lannister ignoring that they both have way deeper and more meaningful canon relationships clearly marked in romantic terms with people who Do Not Look Canonically Beautiful (like ffs they’re both the *beauty* in two batb inspired storylines one of which is 100% gender-reversed are we serious) and on top of that those relationships are ignored/glossed over in each single piece of jaimesansa fic I happened to come across and sorry but while I’m all for ship and let ship I cannot in any way shape or form like that ship even as crack

(spoilers: I say the above ^^^ as a mainly sansan person who has no problem with sansa/tyrion but like pls we serious)

also 90% of the reasons people think jaime would be into her is SANSA IS MY LAST CHANCE AT HONOR but guess what it’s about the vow he made to catelyn with brienne and he sends brienne to find her it so they can fulfill their promise vow to catelyn and not to anyone else, so that line is way more about jaime and brienne’s rship and their relationships with cat, both single-sided and not, and there’s the entire lady stoneheart angle to it, so ignoring that to me and making it about sansa means that you’re basically ignoring 70% of what actually matters in that storyline and like... feel free to but I don’t care for that

now, if it was a regular crackship whatever, but the fact that it’s at like 400 fics or smth when tyrion/sansa has like 100 more or so and we don’t talk about how jonsam or sam ships in general have way less than that, or how about most tyrion ships have way less than that, or most ships that aren’t jb or sansan including characters who Are Not Standard Hot have less than that irks me a lot bc to me it’s just another proof that a lot of people in this fandom are shallow af and haven’t grasped that one of the main damned themes is that outside beauty is Not All It’s Cranked Up To Be *shrug*

now: with this, I’m not saying that everyone who ships jaimesansa is shallow or that shipping it or multishipping it makes you shallow. also, I think everyone can ship what they want and I’m not stopping anyone from doing it, and if someone does it taking into account all the variables I listed above more power to them, I just can’t stomach it myself and I honestly, really find it hypocritical af that people will call jb or sansan or sansa/tyrion or any other goddamned age gap pair in these books inherently abusive because of the age gap but somehow jaime/sansa never gets that complaint even if it’s a pretty big ship and they have, hm, twenty years in between them which is more than sansa has with tyrion or sandor and more than jaime has with brienne but somehow that’s not creepy while the other ships are. like. sorry but I can see the pattern and I’m tired of how hypocritical this entire thing is especially when a lot of js shippers from the old guard were in the group that thinks jb is problematic because of the age gap. peace.

(ps: I’m the last person judging ppl on age gaps but if you call one problematic and another larger one not problematic and the PROBLEMATIC one features nonstandard attractive ppl and the other doesn’t... sorry but are we even serious here come on)