#literally the only way someone will stop bullying you ime is strike back physically or otherwise

[bramblepaws]

alright i’m gonna try to put all of my thoughts on this together into one post so i dont have to say anything else about it ever again

Mike is not abusive. Lucy is not abusive.

Now, a disclaimer: if you have been abused, and you see elements of your own abuse in their relationship, that’s valid! The point of my argument is not to tell you that your relationship wasn’t abuse. You know better than anyone else what it was.

okay! now onto the meat.

To start off: evidence that Lucy is an abuser.

Lucy repeatedly hurts Mike physically from the start of the comic up ‘til December, from kicks and slaps, to hitting him with a stick, and everything in between.

Mike feels trapped in the relationship because Lucy depends on him so heavily

Mike feels cut-off from their friends, as he believes they will side with Lucy every time.

The comic started out as a slapstick one with kids in eighth grade; everyone hit each other to start with. Mike literally punts Yashy a few times. Lucy was the only one who didn’t grow out of it -- she continues to slap Mike on occasion. It never, however, follows a cycle of abuse. Abusers generally follow a cycle when they physically abuse someone: they lead up to physical violence with threats and emotional abuse, then physically attack the other person, then cycle through apologies and excuses and manipulation to keep their victim from blaming them. Lucy is physically violent with all of her friends, and does not EVER apologize or express remorse over it. I would label it as bullying behavior rather than abusive, which is terrible in and of itself.

Mike severely over-estimates how one-sided the dependency is. Neither he nor Lucy have any other friends that match the level of closeness they have with each other. I’m going to just c/p one of my other posts for clarification;

Mike and Lucy had the exact same “most people only like me cuz im attractive, Mike/Lucy is the only one who genuinely likes me for who i am” attitude regarding their other friends.

For Lucy : Daisy viewed Lucy as a romantic rival for Mike’s affection, and was pretty neutral and detached with any interaction outside of that. Paulo was interested in getting in Lucy’s pants and didn’t interact with her outside of hitting on her aggressively. David is partially there for Paulo, and partially there to ALSO hit on her. Sue and Amaya don’t interact with her much, but there is implication that they also see her as a romantic rival for Mike’s affection.

All of this results in Lucy believing that everyone has ulterior motives for being her friend. The various random middle schoolers that crush on her and call her hot encourage this view. Mike is the only one who doesn’t fit into this pattern; they met on the pretext of (what she saw as) friendly competition and nothing else. She was the one who initiated friendship, further proving that he doesn’t have ulterior motives.

For Mike : Daisy saw Mike as a romantic interest and didn’t interact with him outside of hitting on him. Paulo saw Mike as a romantic rival for Lucy’s affections and a person to insult. David is there for Lucy and Paulo, and doesn’t really interact with Mike outside of interacting through those people. Sue and Amaya both see Mike as a romantic interest.

All of this results in Mike… most likely ALSO believing that people have ulterior motives for being his friend. He takes note of the fact that many girls are interested in dating him in “Prom Preparation” and laments that fact, as he isn’t interested in any of them. Lucy is the only one who doesn’t fit into this pattern; she established their friendship on the pretext of competition, which he enjoys (though he wishes she was less harsh about it), and zero romantic interest. She also tries to stick by him even when he’s romantically unavailable (regarding Sandy), further cementing the idea that she isn’t using him for something else.

Mike and Lucy are both VERY reliant on the other person to be their only True Friend. they both crush on each other throughout the series, but it’s understood for both of them that they aren’t going to let that get in the way of other things. they both see past the exterior of the other person – Mike sees that Lucy is sweet and fun under her “hot” & spiky exterior, and Lucy sees that Mike is sweet and fun under his “hot” & humble exterior. They relied on each other to see themselves as like… real people, rather than either something to be Won or competed with.

On another note, Mike relied just as heavily on Lucy for emotional support — she comforted him every time he was upset about Sandy, had his back during and after Confrontation, and generally set aside her teasing if it seemed like he was actually upset about something. In return he protected her from her phobia of water, defended her from the ire and desire of their friends, and gave emotional support back. Their dependency was about equal in the end, though Mike later leaned heavily on the idea that she needed him more than he needed her (and was proven wrong, as recent chapters have shown).

The above paragraphs also illustrate that BOTH of them felt cut off from friends; neither of them felt that any of their other friends were dependable for much. When it came down to it, Daisy would always side with Mike and Paulo would always side with Lucy. Lucy felt equally sure that people, aside from Paulo, would side with Mike.

The main issue here, however, is that nobody spoke up about Lucy’s physical bullying of Mike. They all grew up hitting each other for the lulz, and when they all slowly drifted to a stop she didn’t. But Mike never acted like it bothered him, never said anything against it — so I have to assume that everyone, Lucy included, just inferred that Mike didn’t mind it. Mike resented this, but he never said anything about it, because he was used to it too. It took Sandy to help him realize that he didn’t deserve to be hit — but for some reason, he bottled it up and grew resentful instead of communicating with Lucy about it. Lucy, meanwhile, has been shown to be respectful of the boundaries of other people once they’ve clearly set them. It’s my belief that she would’ve stopped hitting if he had asked her to. In an abusive relationship, that just isn’t the case. Asking an abuser to stop doing something is a surefire way to be manipulated/gaslit and then for the activity to either remain the same or increase. We can’t know for sure because Mike never asks her to stop, but there is no indication that he never says anything about it because he’s afraid of retaliation. He’s not afraid of her at all, which is another point in the favor of it not being abuse.

Another important detail: Lucy isn’t controlling. When she finds out Mike is still interacting with a girl he originally left her for, she’s genuinely happy for him and gives him space about it. She gets pissed about it later when he isn’t being honest with her or himself, but is genuinely happy when he IS honest about it because she knows Sandy is important to him. Most abusers would not handle the situation the same way. If Lucy was abusive, she would’ve most likely reacted with anger and a desire to stop communication between the two of them. She could have used third grade as a way to guilt-trip and manipulate Mike out of interacting with Sandy, who posed a threat to their relationship. But she didn’t. This doesn’t inherently make her NOT an abuser, but it’s a tick in that direction. Lucy also doesn’t influence their friends to side against Mike at all. She’s just… living her life, not really giving a shit either way WHAT her friends think about either her or Mike. Abusers are generally very concerned with how they’re viewed. They put in a lot of time and effort to make sure they seem like nice, likable people. They’re especially controlling about how their victim sees them — Lucy never really influences Mike either way other than just Being Around As His Friend. She doesn’t seem to even care about his opinion at all -- until later on in their relationship, when she opens up to outsiders how much his opinion matters to her. But even at that point… she’s not really doing anything to influence him aside from just Being Nicer, which is something a normal friend would do and isn’t manipulative at all.

Overall, Lucy just doesn’t strike me as abusive. The physical attacks and general mean-ness are absolutely bullying and toxic behavior, and the relationship between the two of them is clearly codependent and toxic. But Lucy isn’t controlling, she isn’t manipulative, she doesn’t gaslight. She isn’t hell-bent on making sure Mike thinks only the best of her while making him think of himself as complete garbage — she goes out of her way to be as honest and frank with him about herself (aside from her crush on him) as she can. She was a bad friend, but not an abusive one.

Now, on to Mike!

Evidence that Mike is an abuser.

Lucy feels incredibly dependent on their friendship

Mike was manipulative during December

Mike is being manipulative and controlling after their friendship ended

Re: dependency — see above long paragraphs about their relationship.

December was a horrible, heart-wrenching chapter. Mike had bottled up feelings and built up resentment for a LONG time leading up to this, and all of it exploded out at once in an irreversible decimation of their friendship. And that’s exactly what he wanted it to be — he was tired of her trying to be his friend, and he’d hinted at it plenty of times, but enough was enough and he had to spell it out for her. He tells her he hates her. Explains that Sandy helped him see that it wasn’t right to let Lucy hurt him all the time. And then says that he’s going to stop hanging out with her at lunch. All of this is standard horrible-friend-breakup stuff; it’s the next two bits that get the honor of making the whole event Unforgivably Bad.

Mike tells her that if he leaves, all of their other friends will probably follow him. Lucy will be left alone.

This is an absolutely horrible thing to say to someone. To tell them that no one actually likes them, they’re just tolerated. That if all the friends were forced to choose between two people, they sure wouldn’t pick Lucy! And Lucy would be abandoned, which has been her number one fear since third grade (and why wouldn’t it be? humans are social creatures and NEED friends to survive).

But this isn’t abuse. It definitely rings as something close. In fact — (this is gonna be personal for the first time in the essay just to warn u) — the person who abused ME used a similar tactic, though with a different endgame in mind. When I rejected him the first time, he forced our friends into a position where they had to choose between us. His intent was to get me to relent and date him, to stop causing strife in our mutual friend group — or, failing that, to punish me for taking away what he saw as rightfully his (aka me).

Mike’s actions were similar, but his intention was very different. He wanted her to hurt; he wanted revenge for the way he had been treated, and he wanted to make it VERY clear that he didn’t want to be friends with her. He wanted, furthermore, to prove that he wasn’t in the wrong for this: he was the victim, and other people treating Lucy like she was a bully would be validating for his own victimhood.

I genuinely don’t think he was trying to manipulate her here. He was trying to hurt her badly and was succeeding in doing so. He was being absolutely monstrous, but not abusive. His intent with this was not to control; he was lashing out to hurt someone who had hurt him, which Everyone Does. It was horrible, but not abusive. It pushed Lucy into a depression, but it wasn’t abusive. It not being abusive doesn’t make it any less fucked up IMO. It was terrible and it had terrible consequences! It just was a different beast than abuse.

After Lucy comes back, Mike is clearly consumed with guilt. All he does for her first day there is hide from her and stare guiltily at her from a distance. He tries to talk to her a couple of times, but isn’t able to catch her alone. He gets antsy about old physical violence from her and yells about it, then tries AGAIN to catch her alone so they can talk but does it in a really weird passive-aggressive manner because she’s been acting weird and he doesn’t know how to handle it, and he doesn’t really want to deal with his guilt over what he said in December. She gives him the chance to apologize, but is openly resistant to it, and he ends up completely fumbling the ball and doing just a god-awful job of apologizing, and then getting overly defensive about Sandy and completely ruining any chance he had. He starts clinging to his victim complex with everything he’s got, because suddenly he can see how much he fucked things up, and he doesn’t know how to handle it. He follows her again, because he misses her and hates her and misses Sandy and wants her to be there for him and wants her to prove that she deserved what he said to her. He’s called out for glaring at her and is Reminded Again That Sandy’s AWOL.

But most of this isn’t what people point to when they’re saying he’s abusive — this is all just him being a freak, but like, a normal freak. It’s in Witch Hunt that he flips into the extreme again. He starts ranting and raving about how obsessed Lucy is to Daisy, despite like… having just seen how much she doesn’t want male attention…… I think it’s partially because he’s used to her leaning on him when others ramp up their romantic attention for her, because he used to be the one that would just leave her alone in that regard. Plus there’s the whole messed-up-about-Sandy thing that Lucy used to swoop in and comfort him for. But I’m getting off track.

He starts ranting about how obsessed she is with him. Daisy is immediately like “I don’t think she is dude” but he relents, so she snaps at him and storms off.

From what I understand, people are reading this scene as abusive because they interpret this as him trying to control how others see Lucy. He’s ranting about a mutual friend he’s having trouble with, which he HAS done about Lucy in particular a number of times. I can definitely see where people are coming from with this one. If you look at it a certain way, it comes across as him trying to slander her name. But it could just as easily be him ranting about a person he’s having trouble with, which everyone does, all the time. I’ve ranted about a person I don’t like to people plenty of times, and it was never ABUSIVE, because all of the other requirements for abuse weren’t set into place.

This, IMO, falls under the same category as Lucy’s physical violence. It’s definitely present in abusive situations, but there are guidelines for abuse that it just doesn’t fit into. He doesn’t have control over Lucy or any of their friends in this scenario. He isn’t using this to try and isolate Lucy; he’s just trying to get his friends to see his side of the story and help him feel better about the awful way he treated her. It’s Super Shitty, but it isn’t abuse.

In summation: I get the bits and pieces that people see in their relationship that matches up with abuse, but there just isn’t enough there to label either Mike or Lucy abusive. The basic requirements for abuse haven’t been met. There are things present that can definitely happen in abusive relationships, and their relationship was absolutely toxic and bad, but it isn’t abuse.

As a final note of evidence that I fall back on every time the subject comes up: both parties have been offered up as possible abusers. Lucy has been stated by many to be possibly abusive, and Mike has been stated by just as many to be possibly abusive. But they can’t BOTH be abusive — that’s not how abuse works. They can be mutually toxic toward each other, they can both exhibit bullying behavior, but they can’t be abusing each other at the same time. Abuse only works when there is an abuser and a victim. There is always a victim, who is not at all at fault for how the relationship is! And Mike and Lucy both played their part in their relationship becoming as toxic as it is. So it literally CANNOT be abuse.

[janetbrown711]

‘ c’mon, lazybones. you’ve slept enough. ’ obviously Louie and literally anyone else

"C"mon, lazybones. you’ve slept enough," Donald rolled his eyes, "Get up so I can get you three to school on time," he started playing with the light switch. Louie groaned. "Uncle Donallddddd," Louie groaned and covered his eyes."Louie, I let you sleep in a whole half hour later than your brothers. Get dressed now," He signaled 'I'm watching you' and walked out of the doorway. Louie groaned and rolled out of the bed. He stood for a moment, adjusting to the motions of the houseboat, then stumbled to the closet to pull out a green button up jacket with one too many holes in it and a dark green shirt with a pattern of a spaceship on it. He walked up to the door and peeped through the crack to make sure no one was coming down the halls, which no one was. He darted back into the closet and took out a slightly beat up laser pointer, a t-Rex toy, and a yo yo he had all found in the garbage the previous day. He took the items and shoved them in the pockets of his jacket, which he noticed was starting to get holes in the pockets themselves. He made a small mental note he knew he'd forget to ask Donald for a new jacket... Preferably a sweat shirt this time. Slowly he walked back into the halls and into the small kitchen where Huey, Dewey and Donald were already done and cleaning up breakfast."You slept late," Dewey grabbed a blue backpack from a coat hanger. "Shut up..." Louie sighed and sat down."Louie, we don't have time to wait. Here," Donald handed him a piece of toast, "eat this, we need to go." Louie nodded slowly and Huey gave him a nervous look."A-are you sure Louie feels well? Sleeping in can be a sign of a sickness such as the flu, uh... Measles...? A few other things... According to the Junior Woodchuck Guidebook," Huey tried act like Louie looked sick, but he was always the worst liar."Boys, I don't have time for this. We need to get going now," Donald grabbed the other two backpacks and shuffled them out of the boat and into the car. Louie sighed and stared out the window as Donald drove onward. They arrived at the school in the matter of a few minutes as Donald quickly dropped them off and said goodbye. The triplets waddled into the main play room and set their bags down in a cubby. Dewey ran off immdietly to the playground to go and play pretend pirates on the playground, and Huey wandered to the sand and started digging. Louie sat on a bench by a tree and waited for his first costumer to come by, which didn't take long.A young owl boy walked over with crumpled up money in his hand. "Hello Owen, so what'll it be?" Louie asked."You know what I want," he tapped his foot. Louie suddenly remembered that he was a whole year older than himself so he got straight to the point and pulled out the laser pointer."State of the art, you're lucky I found it in such great condition. That'll be eight dollars," Louie grinned and held his hand out."Woah, eight dollars? Im not paying that much," Owen crossed his arms"I'm sorry good sir, but I'm only selling it for eight," Louie pulled away his hand."Wait!" Owen sighed, "I have eight... Here," he opened his hand to actually reveal a crumbled up ten, Owen was not the brightest Bulb. Louie smiled and took the money."Pleasure doing business," he gave him the laser pointer and Owen walked away. He made eye contact with Huey from across the playground, who sighed and shook his head. Louie looked away and shoved the money into his other pocket. Louie sat and waited for someone else to walk by, but neither of his other clients showed up, so he set his head down and closed his eyes in defeat. After about two minutes of rest he felt a tap on his shoulder. "Hey, kid," it was some big guy... Perhaps a fourth or fifth grader, much older than Louie himself, "you sold me this, right?" he held key chain of a dog that when you pressed the button, his eyes lit up and he made a really obnoxious sound. How could Louie forget? He nodded."Well it doesn't work anymore and i want my money back!" the guy slammed his fist on the table, but Louie didn't flinch." I'm sorry, I have a strict no returns policy," Louie tried to sneak around him, but the kid wasn't alone. Two of the guys friends surrounded him. Louie gulped."Well then we have a problem now, don't we?" the kid cracked his knuckles. Louie looked around for a way out."Look, I make sure everyone is aware of my policies and such. It-its not my fault you broke it.""It broke after two days. Gimme my money back or I'll pound you!" the kid got closer to Louie."I don't have your money!" Louie said."Well, looks like its pounding time for you then!" his to friends grabbed Louie and held him down while the main kid prepared to punch. Louie flinched and closed his eyes. Just as the kid was about to strike, Louie heard a "stay away from my brother!" and heard the running of feet. Huey and Dewey."Oh yeah? Whatre you gonna do to stop me?" the kid didn't move from his pose of 'about to punch Louie in the face'. "We're gonna beat you up sooooo bad," now it was Dewey who cracked his knuckles."Or... Maybe we can be civil and talk about this. No one has to get hurt," Huey had a bit of sarcasm. The kid glared at the triplet brothers. "Unless you have fifteen dollars I don't wanna hear it," the kid raised his fist higher. Huey lunged into position, waiting. "We do not," Dewey said. Louie internally slapped his forehead."Well then... Your funeral," the kid punched Louie square in the face and Dewey leaped at him. Suddenly, all Louie saw was punches and hits and older boys and his brothers, he didn't even know what he himself was doing anymore. It felt like self defense, but who knew. Out of nowhere a whistle blew and all six boys froze in their place. A goose teacher walked over and snapped at the boys to all go to the principals office, to which they all groaned, but obliged. As they walked Louie looked at his brothers and say that Huey's knuckles were bruised, but there wasn't much damage otherwise. Dewey looked far worse than him, he looked like he had a bleeding beak, several bruises on the arms, it was a mess. Louie didn't want to guess what he looked like.First, the three older boys went into the office, then the triplets did. It was boring, and was the usual talk of 'don't get into fights' and 'we don't accept bullying or physical violence, but that doesn't mean you have to fight back' and blah blah blah. The only good thing that happened was that the principal only said he'd levae a message for Donald, not make him come and pick the boys up, which was a relief for all three of them. Then, the principal wanted to talk to Louie all by himself. His brother walked out slowly and with a fake sense of shame on their faces as they slowly nodded to Louie as they left.Once they were gone, Louie looked everywhere, except at his face. He looked at posters, mirrors, chairs, jars of lollipops, star student awards, all sorts of things. He pondered how much a kid would pay for one of those..."Louie, why do you do this?" the principal asked. Louie glanced at him."What... Do you mean?" "Why do you always get in trouble?" he sighed and took off his shiny red glasses. Louie made an 'I dunno' sound and he sighed."Louie, I'm going to ask you something and i want you to answer honestly."Uh oh. That's never a good sign.Louie nodded."Is your Uncle Donald the most capable person go take care of you and your brothers?"The question. That stupid question. Everyone had it on their minds, but only few had the guts to say it to their faces. Louie felt his blood boil. Words couldn't describe how much he loathed the question. "Yes," Louie said with a grim and assertive tone."Now look here, Louie I-""Shut up!!! You have no idea what its like!! My brother's and I are happy. Uncle Donald keeps us happy, and fed, and educated in your stupid school!!! He is he best guardian I could ever ask for!!! Don't you dare ever say such a thing ever again!" Louie stood. The principal was stunned into silence. He tried to say words but it turned into a stuttered mess. Louie waved his and walked out of the office, slamming the door which made the office ladies all jump. Louie stormed down the halls, hearing the principal call out his name, but choosing to ignore it and ran off to the janitors closet to hide. He got in and turned off the lights. He sat on the ground next to the mop, pulled up his knees to his chest, and started balling. He hated school. He hated this. He hated all of the adults and some of the kids whispering. He didn't want to be here. He wanted to be home. He wanted to sleep. He wanted his family to have money, but he only knew one way how. Finally, he heard a knock on the door, nd heard the lock click. Louie looked up and saw it wasn't any of his brothers, or any janitors, but Donald..."Uncle Donald! I-I" he quickly wiped the tears from his face and stood up. Donald hushed him and gave him a tight hug. Louie was quick to hug back. " I'm sorry, Lou," Donald whispered."What about that job interview thing?" Louie asked."It doesn't matter. I'm sorry," Donald hugged tighter, "are you okay?""Yeah... I'm okay... I'm okay..." he took a shaky breath in and out " I'm always okay, as long as youre still here, Unca Donald."