#they're wrong about html not being a programming language also

[anocana]

turing completeness is deeply overrated

"the brain is turing complete" as an argument for the brain being a computer is both 1. false in a literal sense and 2. useless in the sense it's meant; by that definition, the earth is also a computer, but if someone went around saying "the earth is a computer" they'd be a crank

people will cite turing completeness as a requirement for something to be a programming language (usually bc they're mad about html), but within the kind of languages they mean, it's basically a convenience feature. it's a very good convenience feature, since termination checkers mostly suck and people don't want to write proofs about the behavior of their code, but almost nothing worth doing truly requires it. i'm pretty sure you could in theory do >99% of software in a termination-checked (thus turing-incomplete) language with a decent i/o model (which is outside the scope of a turing machine anyway)

[northwest-cryptid]

Bestie I took a whole ass class in college on coding at a school *known* for its programming degrees and teaching newbies how to code and I failed

Please do not underestimate how fucking stupid i am (not judging just like ofc you lose everyone when you bring up coding that shit hard)

Alright so a couple things here, right out the gate the fact you're bringing this up means you actually read my lengthy post about this topic so hey, thank you. I'm gonna say a lot of stuff here and I want to make it super clear that at no point am I ever trying to intentionally sound judgemental, or like I'm pointing a finger, or calling anyone out or anything of the sort. I have, genuinely; nothing but respect. But I'm also very bad with written tone so please understand that if at any point I sound condescending or whatever it's not at all intended. I don't think any of this will come across that way, but I figured I'd say something up front; since we're having a conversation in which we disagree on something. I don't see you as "wrong" or me as "right" I see us as people who disagree on a subject, and that's fine I feel like you've not been rude or anything, I don't want to be rude or anything; hopefully that makes sense, I'm gonna stop rambling about this and start rambling about the actual topic now.

I also want to quickly say you're not incapable of learning. You may not have learned well being taught the way they taught at that school, but just because a school is known for being good at something; doesn't actually mean that's the end all be all way to do it. I also took a college programming class, specifically for C# and I did not do very well. Because simply put, I didn't do well in school settings. Being taught the way they taught, didn't click with me; and I didn't really have an interest in learning what they wanted me to.

A couple of years later, I want to kinda mess around with Unity and VRChat stuff and suddenly not only did I learn C#, self taught; but I learned UDON and how to convert between the two. Why? Because when I actually you know, was being taught in a way that worked for me, and on a topic that interested me personally. I had an easier time with it. Everyone regardless of how smart or stupid they may believe themselves to be, is going to struggle if they're not being taught in a way that makes sense to them.

Coding isn't necessarily hard so much as it's frightening. It's intimidating because it's asking effort of someone in an area they're unfamiliar with, but then that's literally everything. It's very interesting to me just what people are willing to learn; but then also what people aren't. Programming is perceived as something for "nerds" something difficult, something hard.

The reality of it is, if you can learn a second language, if you can learn to draw, if you can learn a musical instrument, if you read the sentence "lol brb afk lmao" then yes, you can learn to code.

In fact, if you can play a video game, you can learn to code. I'm not joking, all coding is; is a list of rules. That's it, understanding it is no different than understanding how a game functions. If someone looks at a game of chess, or FFXIV and doesn't know the game; they see this incomprehensible mess.

"Why can the Knight jump pieces? Why does the Rook move that far? How come a pawn can only capture diagonal? Why can't I move this piece here?" Or "What does that icon mean? What does this skill do? Why is everyone grouping up? Why is this timer ticking down? Why is my tank suddenly at 1 HP?" Is literally no different from "why is that text bold? Why is that column there? Why is this text scrolling?"

The difference is that people think games are easy, and they don't skip over the easy stuff.

I cannot tell you how many times I've tried to explain HTML to someone and they go "yea yea I know "Hello World" get to the good stuff, how do I put an image in here?" and I have to explain that you put the image in there the same way you put the "Hello World" in there, you need to know that first.

Now listen I'm not saying EVERYONE can play FFXIV either, I'm saying the people who want to, do. I'm saying the people who want to pick up a DPS class learn the rotation, even if that rotation looks like this:

The problem with coding is that there's this stigma of difficulty around it. The only programmers people seem to talk about are accomplished people or they seem impressive with what they can do. They work programming jobs, they do it professionally or whatever.

Let's not forget that Yandere Dev programmed an entire game, extremely mid programming for an extremely mid game sure; but you can't deny that he did it.

People don't go into playing chess, expecting to either be Gukesh Dommaraju or to quit on their first game. That's the current world champion, who defeated the previous champion Ding Liren in the 2024 World Chess Championship. According to wikipedia I'm not gonna claim to know anything about competitive chess so you know, just an example.

What I'm getting at with all of this is, even if you are; and I'm gonna say this right now I have no right to make a statement on this so your words not mine; "stupid" you can learn coding if you want to. However the other big thing, that people don't even consider, is that you don't HAVE to.

There are TONS of resources, website builders; and free to use CSS and HTML code out there as auxiliary options. For example,

Eggramen's Testpages

Teppy's layouts

Templaterr

If all of that is too complicated for someone there's even stuff like Sadgrl's Layout Builder:

It literally uses drop downs and sliders, then you click generate and it just spits out the HTML you can copy and paste, edit it however you want.

I always feel bad when people say coding is hard. Because people have a seemingly weird idea of what coding is.

Like, alright hear me out real quick... a Website is literally just this:

<html> <head><title>your title here</title></head> <body><p>paragraph text here</p></body> </html>

Then we click save, check the website and, wow hey look at that:

Understanding this is simple.

HTML uses tags, tags come in those little < > brackets. We know websites are written in the markup language (the ML of HTML) HTML so we'll go ahead and define our code as such with:

<html>

^ Cool, that's done, now our code knows it's HTML. Now we should also keep in mind that to close out any tag we just use the same tag with a forward slash in front of it... which means our code looks like this now:

<html>

</html>

Everything we want to display on the website goes in that element (a container created by tags), because we're literally telling the code "everything from here to here is html code, use it to write the website." Well Websites typically have a little name in the tab right? That tab is called the Title. We're going to put that in the <Head> tag, this is because websites have two major areas; the Head and the Body. The Head determines how the actual website will look; not what will go on it, the Body determines what will actually go ON the website.

But hey one thing at a time, let's say we don't know or care about the difference between head and body. So we just put this:

<html>

<title> Title </title>

</html>

Does this work?

Oh hey look at that it does.

Well okay but then what if I want to write something on the web page?

Well we use a paragraph for that, it's denoted by the <p> </p> tag. So then what happens if we completely ignore Head and Body?

Would this actually work?

Oh hey look at that, it does.

What I've just told you can easily translate to "The pawn can move one space forward, but on it's first turn it can move two spaces!" It's very simple, but just like how this would be a very simple website with nothing much to it, you're going to have a hard time playing Chess if all you know how to do is move a pawn forward.

Because eventually that pawn is going to collide with another pawn and you're going to try to move your pawn onto mine and I'm going to say "oh uh, pawns can't capture like that; they capture diagonally." Or in the case of HTML "Hey you probably want more to your website than just white space and black text." Right, so then what's the solution exactly? Well hey let's start with adding a column, maybe a side bar?

Well okay for that we'll need to use a flex, but that sounds complicated and we want to keep things simple right? No one is trying to teach you The Sicilian Defense when you're trying to learn how to move your pawns! Sure it's related (I think) but I don't think it's necessarily a good way to TEACH someone the basics. So what? We just can't use a flex? Well actually, we can; but we're going to go about it in an absolutely simple manner.

Remember that layout builder I linked earlier? It had sidebars! We want sidebars! Let's generate an HTML with sidebars from that builder and then use THAT HTML to use a flex.

Yoink!

and that should do it...

Uh hey, where's the sidebar? Well we're missing a step. At the bottom of the page where we got the HTML it says something. "This code should be copied and pasted into the <body> </body> tags in an HTML file." Well shit we don't HAVE a Body tag.

Well we know everything has to go inside those tags, and we know how to use tags in general since we've been doing it this whole time! So let's go ahead and put a body tag just around the sidebar code!

Okay right, well...

This is a bit of an issue isn't it? I mean come on, we did everything it said; but we still don't have a nice sidebar with a box and everything. It's just kind of there. So how do we get it to make a box around the text and create a proper sidebar? We even included a flex didn't we?

Well sure, but let's take a step back and think about it like this, what are we trying to achieve here? Well we want there to be a box around our words for the updates segment right? That box should look like this:

But our website is just a white void with nothing around it... hold on wait a second. Our website is just a white void. Because we didn't actually copy any of the properties that change the LOOK of the website, only the properties that tell the website what goes on it.

Looking at the image we can see a background, and various colors, and the text is a different color; our website doesn't look like that, so we must be missing something.

Everything for the CODE to create the box is there, but it doesn't know what the box actually looks like. Because we never told it. That's where Style comes in, Style often pairs with CSS, and you'd see this if you searched for things like "how to change a background color" or "how to change text color in HTML" you'd probably find a guide like this:

So let's look for the Style tag in the HTML that we're pulling the header from:

^ It's there, and we know that elements have to have a start and end tag; so let's go ahead and find the end tag; and copy everything in between; making sure we place it in the body of our code.

Oh hey! There's the box, and even the background; and now the text has different colors. Well hey I kinda don't like this background, I would like to change it but I don't really get how...

Looking at our HTML we literally copy and pasted, we can see body-bg-image. with a url. So wait, what happens if I change the URL.

Oh hell yea, I hate it. But the tiling bothers me, I want the image to be bigger; how do I do that?

Well again this is laid out for us:

Let's try to set the size to be 100% of the x and 100% of the y, we can even tell it "Repeat Background, no"

Again; does this work?

YOU KNOW IT BAYBEE.

So obviously I'm just kinda having a bit of fun going over some silly stuff here, but my point with all of this is to hopefully show that you really don't even have to know what you're doing. You can take what other people have out there for you and mess with it, edit it; change it, see what you like.

The best part is that it's honestly very simple if you look at it's component parts. Coding is intimidating, because it's all "nested" meaning they clump all the shit together and you're looking at hex codes and fancy brackets and going "what does ANY of this mean?!" and in reality it just kinda, holds everything together.

Truth be told, and I'm allowed to say this; I'm a fucking idiot. You went to college, I flunked out of high school because I got my credits taken away when my principle BELIEVED WITHOUT EVIDENCE that I cheated to earn a credit for algebra 2 because I flunked algebra 1. You know why I flunked 1 but aced 2? Because my algebra 2 teacher could actually teach me, as an autistic student; in a way that made sense to me. I'm actually a fuckin' idiot. I have a disability that makes learning difficult for me. I do not have the coding autism, I have the ADHD and MMORPG autism. But I can understand HTML because it's actually really simple when you break it down and look at how it all fits together.

It's a misconception that coding is HARD because coding is intimidating. People get scared of it because they see this lengthy code of letters and shorthand they don't know, and think "well I'm too stupid to learn that."

My friend, you learn tons of shit everyday. Most people on this website can recite a meme based on an image alone. Believe me, you have the potential; and here's the truth, if you absolutely do not want to learn coding for HTML; just don't. Use the resources available to build your website without ever having to learn to code. You don't have to. You can still have a really unique personal website without ever having to actually sit down and learn HTML. You can do that. People have made it exceptionally easy to use layout builders, or CSS style codes; you can edit them, you can replace parts and bits. It's all made to be as easy as possible for someone who doesn't know ANYTHING about HTML. There's no shame in using those things, I use those things even now as someone who knows a good bit of HTML. I'm still learning mind you, but I can learn; and I can use those tools in the meantime to patch up the gaps in my knowledge.

I tend to lose people not because coding is necessarily difficult, but because coding takes effort; and it's effort that a lot of people don't want to put in to having their own space online. Which, honestly; is fine.

Some people don't care about the indie web, they ARE complacent with centralized websites, they don't mind social media; they're genuinely happy with just having an account on a website ran by some random CEO and the truth of the matter is, that's okay. The thing I care about is whether or not people are aware they have choice, and those who WANT to actually take up getting involved with the indie web have the chance and knowledge to do so. Because there are a lot of people who would likely be happier getting away from social media, but this is all they know.

They get excited about the indie web, and getting away from social media; but the second they hear that building your own website requires even a baseline understanding of HTML which can be learned in literally like 30 minutes and amounts to knowing <p> and <html> they go "oh uh, nope not for me! I'll just go back to playing FFXIV learning raid mechanics and complicated rotations but uh coding is too much for me! lol" Which kinda kills me because it's like these same people can sit me down and go "oh this raid isn't that complicated actually you just have to [flawlessly have all 23 mechanics memorized and rattles them off like it's nothing.]" But then they just decide that HTML which they have an interest in learning is somehow too hard.

I know people who can speak 4 languages but think coding is too hard. I know people who can play 3 instruments but think coding is too hard. You know what they all have in common? They looked at the fact it was "programming" and said no before they even attempted. Because programming/coding is SCARY. It's not that they tried and failed and gave up because it was so agonizingly difficult, it's that they didn't even try in the first place.

A lot of people I know also gave up after failing once or twice because it didn't stick. I came back to HTML 4 times before it stuck for me, again learning disability; autism, the works. So like sure, but I genuinely feel like people would have an easier time understanding coding at least with things like HTML if they actually viewed it as something they could achieve, and learn in a setting that's actually suited to them.

I tried learning from YouTube videos and while they're very good videos, they didn't help me nearly as much as just getting into an HTML document and rummaging through it's guts seeing what changed as I messed with it. I'm too hands on for someone to sit me down and talk at me for 3 hours about different tags and shit. I gotta do it, put me in coach I'm ready to absolutely destroy the website and then fix it again.

Anyways I'm rambling here, but I genuinely hope this made sense. Again I'm not intending to say "I'm right you're wrong here's my extremely long winded speech as to why" or whatever. Coding can be hard for some people, I do genuinely believe the way it was taught to you made it hard for you to learn it; or maybe you have something like my learning disability where for whatever reason learning coding IS just difficult for you. I'm not saying you do or anything I'm saying that could very well be the case, you're an anon I don't know you.

This does sorta go back to the "Your Experiences Aren't Universal" for both of us in this case. Never the less I appreciate your perspective and your ask. I guess I just wish more people were willing to pursue the things they want in various ways even if they fail initially. Like if you don't care about having a website then it's fine, don't worry about it; but if you do, I just want to help people find the resources they need to help them make it.

[clubmoneda]

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