#when silver is baffled by julius asking 'for how long' we know he's never asked himself that. how long will they go on fighting the world.

[toddhewitt]

4.06 / 4.10

"and we will be your partners, in the fight to free [the new world]?"

[slowlyandrogynousmiracle]

Has Anyone Listened to Fathoms Deep This Week?

Long ass post!

I just finished listening to it and for the first time I have not been on the same page with the girls. Things I feel like they interpreted seem odd to me and I even when they explain what they mean it still doesn’t add up.

Like Daphne indicating that Madi was being manipulative in the house when speaking with Eleanor. Like....how in the hell did that come about? Her reasoning was that they were enemies but I just don’t see either woman especially Madi thinking to use Eleanor for any reason at that moment that would help her. She knows very clearly that everything has changed for everyone and she has retreated into herself to deal with that and also chooses a book to soothe her. Eleanor begins that conversation and when Madi sees that Eleanor needs to get some things off her chest that is private gives the nod to her guard to leave. Now Daphne says she wanted Eleanor to divulge information that she can use. How does talking about love and her wanting to leave be cunning? It’s literally what she was trading the cache for soooo she was very much aware of Eleanor’s intentions to leave the island. That desire didn’t change on a walk up the beach. Also, we’ve seen several times in season 3 when she got the guns and with her father that she has an interest in Eleanor as a sister she never had. So of course she is curious now that Eleanor is letting her guard down.

The first conversation between them began poorly because Eleanor tried to manipulate her immediately. You see Madi listen then take a breath as if she caught on  to what Eleanor was doing quickly and THEN turned to tables on her by hurting her in a way she was hurt. If the  woman you haven’t seen since a child’d first words to you are deceptive, the next reaction is to tell them about themselves in the most forthright manner. Madi could have been cruel but she simply stated facts. And did it without bringing her own emotional feelings into it.

Back to cabin, Eleanor starts by asking about her childhood. She is making statements as well. It must have been hard for her to not have her father. Madi offered due to her vulnerability to show hers by admitting that yes she missed her father and it was tough not having him but that she did have her mother which she is grateful for. Eleanor agrees with this basically complimenting her that her mother did a good job. Eleanor outright admits she revers HER.

Still staring out the window, when Eleanor is speaking of love Daphne said I believe that Madi’s answer was no to Silver’s question “ Am I enough?” I emphatically disagree. I actually believed this was the moment the walls came down between them. She never answered Silver. She didn’t get a chance to because he rescinded the question and then walked away. But you see her in this scene listen to what Eleanor is dreaming of. She takes a second to answer her. You can see her mind going back to Silver’s question and she almost has a slight smile on her face. Madi’s smiles are hard to catch as she doesn’t reveal her emotions easily especially within company but she says, “yes” as if its the easiest thing because that us the moment that’s EXACTLY what she does want. Silver didn’t ask Madi to jump on a boat with him, abandon her people and go open an inn somewhere. He said after this war. So I also consider that question more of a promise or proposal and before she could answer lets it go. He never asked her to give up anything. He just wants to have a future with her and would she be happy with him in that future. 

Anyways, that’s when Eleanor sits because she now knows despite the gap since they’ve seen each other last they both bond over this desire for love that both have found on opposite sides of a war. But their loves are different. Woodes chose his ambition and hatred for pirates instead of happiness away from Nassau. John is choosing her path to free her (and the island) from hatred and oppression. Madi is secure in her love which Eleanor is not. So she leans on Madi for that assurance and Madi gives it to her not because she is trying to deceive her but because despite it all they can see each other. 

Now this Flint thing....maybe I am cynical (likely) but I would not consider calling Flint a cinnamon roll. Mainly because the speakers aren’t pointing out the main reason Flint is so damn chill; he’s getting everything he wanted! He was all cinnamon roll when Silver died to Madi but the minute Billy said no the Nassau all pf Captain Flint came roaring to life. This is what ALWAYS pushes Flint over the edge; people trying to steer his ship in a direction he does not want to go or that does not benefit his ultimate goal. Since Silver decided to jump in that darkness with him in season 3 and pulled him from his funk he found another partner. He’s had partners! Gates was his partner! Miranda was his partner! Dufrense at some point was his partner. Billy was at some point his partner. When they DIED ( or were murdered by him) then Silver became his partner and he’s back to his more calmer state and Silver has been leading his closer and closer to his goal moreso than the rest since he actually is a willing participant but remember again! this started out with Billy wanting the pirates to rally behind a new King and Silver was the only one relatively unknown to take that role and Billy knew they were in accord. 

So this Flint has changed thing isn’t wholly accurate. He’s simply getting his way and has been even with Silver there. I would not argue he’s given Silver any responsibility in his steed. When you first see them after taking Nassau Silver is the legend so he has to step forth first to get the army behind him....which was FLINT’S idea. But the minute Berringer is dead it is FLINT who chooses and summons the captain. It is FLINT who gives them instructions which is why the captain’s look to Silver because Silver is who they ultimately follow. When Silver gives the nod, only then do they follow orders. Silver is sometimes baffled about the game still which is why he makes these emotional decisions like trying to re-recruit Billy and his talk with Julius. Flint is NOT stupid to this, you’ve seen it in his eyes several times that he can see the power shift but he’s done what he does. He’s tied Silver to his side by serving him the koolaid. And don’t get me wrong, that’s the fucking catch because Flint’s ideals are sincere but what poison it is he thinks this dream can only be attained through brutal violence and other people’s sacrifices. Despite his affection for the people in his life he is not willing to ever stop and that means a never ending shit storm. He could gain Nassau but then he’d be onto the next thing. He’s been too far gone in his obsession for too long. More on Flint in control, when Billy is summoned it is FLINT that addresses him to the room and questions him. Only when it came to Madi’s safety did Silver speak up. Since then FLINT made the call for the deal. The only time he’s really been given the reigns was when they were unexpectedly attacked. And just when Silver has his great victory he manufactured without Flint he’s left defeated by the news of Madi and FLINT once again takes over and it’s FLINT seen with everyone since.

 So, no, I can’t knight Flint with any change of heart. Yes, he has become easier to deal with sure. Yes he’s found a friend in Silver and Madi and he never wanted anything to happen to the, especially Silver but it;’s naive to say it’s just for kindness sake. No, Silver is DANGEROUS and as @scottsndsilver pointed out, just as he did before when Madi lost Silver he immediately goes in to empathize and apologize while also pointing out it is not his fault. Granted, it really WAS not his fault in this case but while Silver absolves him of personal guilt for what happened, he is like I said previously, feeling some kind of way that has changed the friendship they had. He needs the support of Silver and Madi because they are the only ones supporting him. Without the two of them he doesn’t get what he wants. Joh has the army and Madi has the slaves.

Another failure but success that showcases just how much Flint hasn’t changed and just how much Silver IS learning ( though I did agree that Silver is still struggling to understand the politics of it all. He needs his Madi, which is interesting because didn’t Zethu say in her interview that they are both dangerous ( Madi and Silver) and to look forward to what they will do together or some such like that. @mbookerus help). Anywho, Flint NEVER attempted to repair the truce with the slaves. First he sends Madi who makes it clear Flint and Flint’s men were at the Underhill estate that night ( remember when we were wondering why she said Flint and not Silver; you ain’t slick) The Pirate King himself comes and not only does he come but he offers up Billy as Madi told him to do ( ugh and didn’t kill him like Madi may have hinted that she should do and now that sob is going to have her...) and afterwards earns enough respect with the slaves to at least hear him out. While the conversation with Julius was fraught I wouldn’t say Silver lost. I honestly believe Julius saw something in him that made him trust him even if it was with some reluctance because the slaves did NOT have to fight. They could have hidden with the rest of the Maroons and waited until he dust settled but they didn’t and I honestly think it was because of Silver’s actions. They are twp people also feeling each other out so there’s going to be caution and some animosity from Julius.

And I still think he and Silver will be more on the same page by the end of it. as suggested if Julius makes a deal with Rodgers it’s something even Madi may approve of. All she wants is freedom from for her people. She accomplished that by keeping them in the fight long enough for someone to be able to offer a new perspective and the simple fact is; as Julius says next week you can’t fight the world. And the damn truth is what the pirates want aren’t the same thing. Flint has talked those closest to him the dream. Everyone else is following out of fear, loyalty, or a desire to remain a pirate. Never forget they blackballed people who took pardons. Pirating is about taking. It’s a selfish life and in the book although LJS is a pirate he certainly has a derision for other pirates. He sees them as spendthrifty alcoholics were very loose morals. Which is why he has no loyalty to any of them. I would assume that Jack leaving was Silver’s first clue that he cares so much more than everyone else in this world. I mean, the man lost someone and he is looking devestated and Dooly walks over and he sees it, he knows something is wrong, but it’s not his problem. His problem is lets get ready for the next fight. No one offers him condolences besides Flint and I’ve already stated my opinion on that. All he’s given up is for a cause and for people who aren’t what he thought. His eyes are opening and I’m sure we will see his brain reasserting itself especially when Madi being alive comes into play. 

And stop giving Maxc so much credit. I like Max but she annoys me sometimes. Yes she gives great advice, but she also chides people for things she herself does or is responsible for. She betrayed Anne and Jack. She KNOWS people like Woodes cant be trusted as she told Eleanor but she thought he was going to spare Anne? Wtf???? She wants to berate what happened in Nassau without expressing that she DID IN FACT CAUSE IT ALL. If she had no qualms siding with the pirates when it suits her she has no loyalty to anyone but herself. She is just as selfish as the other characters she just runs her mouth more. I take it back. I don’t like Max lol I want to but she’s really turned into the Eleanor I hated. It’s in her manner which is odd because she does say all the accurate shit! But she takes no personal responsibility either and I think that’s what bugs me. And it annoys me that she went looking for Eleanor and when she couldn’t find her settled for the pirates then got upset that she is cast aside from her chair!!!!! Yes she lost Eleanor and Anne is hurt but so many people have lost so much more and her vengeful speech once again became about her “ my fucking chair” I hated that line. And I;’m scared what that means for Jack or Anne because I would not trust her again not after it’s clear she still hasn’t given up that dream of civilization. She’s a leech. No amount of personal wisdom changes that for me.

Any defense of Woodes makes me throw up. Like he brought his wife’s worst nightmare to life!!!! He got what he deserved and the maid is going to tell her she was pregnant 

Lingering thoughts....will Woodes and Madi have a conversation? She was the last person seen with Eleanor.

I will deal with Billy in a different post because people are so very very very reaching and I unfortunately have to destroy their ideals.