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“Tom’s loyalty to the dead was keep g him from living his own life [ … ] Tom’s need to live out his life as a memorial to his comrades taught me that he was suffering from a condition much more complex than simply having bad memories or damaged brain chemistry — or altered fear circuits in the brain [ … ] In one terrifying moment, trauma had transformed everything”.
As Bessel van der Kolk, through the war veterans he was treating, begins to understand what exactly trauma is and the legacy it leaves, the reader, too begins to understand what trauma is and the impact it has on them.
At the point we started trauma therapy, it was to help better a friendship we had at the time, someone we refer to as “0.rigin”. But we were having trouble with that friendship, due to the abusive friendship we just got out of, with our ex-abuser named Amber.
This was the first bit of info from the book that really resonated with us. We felt as though, whether we wanted to our not, our commitment to the dead and abandoned relationship with Amber was preventing us from moving forward in our relationship to 0.rigin.
One thing this book really helped us with as we went through it, was feel affirmed in the traumatic experiences we have been through in our life, which is something we desperately needed after all the gaslighting we’d been through. In any event, reading Bessel van der Kolk describe trauma in this way really helped us feel Understood for the first time in our life. The words, “Tom’s need to live his life as a memorial” is very powerful and evokes a raw and strong image of what it’s like to live with trauma. It IS more than bad memories. It infests and warps every aspect of your life. At that point, we were completely plagued by our abusive relationship with Amber, experiencing a near constant barrage of traumatic intrusions both awake and asleep. And we very much felt as though we were a walking memorial to that relationship.


“We don’t really want to know soldiers go through in combat. We do not really want to know how many children are being molested and abused in our society or how many couples — almost a third, as it turns out — engage in violence at some point during their relationship [ … ] We prefer that cruelty occurs only in far away places like Darfur or the Congo”.
This is the sad reality that trauma survivors of any kind are forced to face. Society, no matter how left-leaning and liberal they claim to be, don’t want trauma victims to be openly traumatized.
You see this everywhere, even in online spaces.
“Dark fiction” isn’t allowed to exist, be consumed or created, even if it’s being used as a medium to cope with trauma people are harassed, abused including being doxxed, sent suicide bait and death threats over fiction. “Vent art” and “trauma core” blogs get mocked and put on DNIs at best, or reported at worst. People say Hello Kitty is an innocent children’s image, not someone who should be associated with pills, alcohol and self harm (god forbid someone subvert the image of Hello Kitty to reflect their own traumatic childhood).
Society only excepts The Good Victim: those who weep quietly and conveniently in the bathroom. They’re sad but in a cute way, and helpless but only in a way that allows those around them to feel good for Helping Them, like a living source of Inspiration Porn. They’re not so needy and helpless that it’s an inconvenience to others around them. They’re afflicted enough that those around benefit from the traumatized’s persons Afflicted Status, that way they can be viewed by others as being A Good And Tolerant Partner/Family Member/Friend/Co-Worker/Peer/etc.
But as a traumatized person, you’re not allowed to have Bad Thoughts or Bad Moods or Bad Days/Weeks/Months. You’re not allowed to openly express the suffering you go through as a traumatized person. You’re expected to just Stuff It All Down.
And as Bessel van der Kolk points out, when society itself doesn’t have the tolerance to merely hear about the trauma that people go through, how the fuck can we as a society expect traumatized individuals to live with it and carry it quietly?
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The first book we’ll be discussing on this blog is “The Body Keeps The Score: Brain, Mind And Body In The Healing Of Trauma” by Bessel van der Kolk, M.D.
This book is our own personal foundation for understanding trauma and trauma disorders. Bessel van der Kolk is also an expert in the field of trauma, as he’s essentially the spearhead of the research and understanding of trauma. He’s the reason PTSD is in the DSM, the reason why we know PTSD isn’t something only veterans go through, the reason why we know BPD is a trauma disorder, etc.
This is the first book we’ve read in therapy, and our other self help books about trauma reference Bessel van der Kolk and his work, so it only feels fitting to start here!
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Idk if anyone's posted this before but if you want a good primer on ACEs (adverse childhood experiences) please check out this online course. It's free & only 50 minutes, plus you get a certificate once you're done. I really recommend it for everyone. Especially because not many people understand dissociation and childhood trauma even though the basic information is right here.
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verifying source credibilty: the CRAAP test
this is mostly a problem i see in CDD system-oriented discord servers, but i'm sure it exists on sysblr as well.
carrds are not credible sources. tumblr posts are not credible sources. did-research.org is not a medical website.
instead, for research and information related to systems specifically, it would be ideal to look at peer-reviewed journal articles.
but you can't stop there. you also have to consider the relevance of the article you're referencing, who the authors and publisher are, and whether or not the information even holds up to more recent studies. this is where the CRAAP test comes in.
C - Currency When was the information published or posted? Has the information been revised or updated? Does your topic require current information, or will older sources work as well? Are the links functional?
R - Relevance Does the information relate to your topic or answer your question? Who is the intended audience? Is the information at an appropriate level (i.e. not too elementary or advanced for your needs)? Have you looked at a variety of sources before determining this is one you will use? Would you be comfortable citing this source in your research paper?
A - Authority Who is the author/publisher/source/sponsor? What are the author's credentials or organizational affiliations? Is the author qualified to write on the topic? Is there contact information, such as a publisher or email address? Does the URL reveal anything about the author or source?
.ac.uk = Academic institutions in the UK .com = Commercial sites .edu = Educational institutions .gov = Government .nhs.uk = Health information services in the UK .org = Non-profit organizations .mil = Military .net = Network.
A - Accuracy Where does the information come from? Is the information supported by evidence? Has the information been reviewed or refereed? Can you verify any of the information in another source or from personal knowledge? Does the language or tone seem unbiased and free of emotion? Are there spelling, grammar or typographical errors?
P - Purpose What is the purpose of the information? Is it to inform, teach, sell, entertain or persuade? Do the authors/sponsors make their intentions or purpose clear? Is the information fact, opinion or propaganda? Does the point of view appear objective and impartial? Are there political, ideological, cultural, religious, institutional or personal biases?
keep in mind this test doesn't at all look at whether or not methods for conducting experiments or studies are effective and valid, but at some point i'd also like to make a post about verifying credibility for academic studies specifically.
next time someone asks for sources don't give them a carrd amen 🙏
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Wanted to come in as a system who used to have MaDD, and currently has a form of Immersive Daydreaming:
due to how MaDD/ID works, it couldn’t “count” as immersive daydreaming to imagine headmates. The Immersive Daydreaming spectrum is classified by 2 things: dissociative absorption (the ability to “get sucked into” what you’re reading/watching/listening to- this is the same thing as the concept of “flow” ie when you get absorbed into a task and time flies by) and what’s known as paracosms (imaginary worlds with narrative and lore).
Imagining People Are In Your Head isn’t Immersive or Maladaptive Daydreaming, because paracosms aren’t involved. In fact, die to the dissociative element of Immersive and Maladaptive Daydreaming, one tends to “zone out” while daydreaming ie dissociate from reality (MaDDers often have the ability to be half tuned into a conversation and half daydreaming).
Parogenic/Willogenic systems can’t daydream having headmates, as the headmates need to react in real time to actual external stimuli. If it were daydreaming, the daydreamer would need to daydream both the stimuli and the reaction from the imaginary construct. In fact, one of the first things a questioning Paragenic or Dreamway System does is determine if a presence in their mind is another para (daydream character) or sentient and autonomous (headmate).
We also agree with @/reisspecialcorner that it’s gross to imply that all endogenic systems are actually MaDDers, in the same way it’s gross to imply they’re all actually psychotic/delusional/hallucinating/schizo, or Actually Secretly Traumagenic.
Sorry if this seems rude, I'm simply uneducated on the subject
I'm a DID system and have a theory on endogenic systems, which you seem to either be or know quite a bit about
Please tell me if there are any aspects of this you might agree/disagree on
(pls say if you agree/disagree, I'm not trying to invalidate or anything it's just a theory 😅)
Soo my current theory is that tulpas, willogenics and any kind of 'created' system are some form of maladaptive daydreaming
So, maladaptive daydreaming is a disorder (currently not medically recognised last time I checked) where one has a complex world in their head that they are actively making, imagining, with characters, a plot/plots etc. it impairs the ability to function because beings with the disorder want to always daydream/may act out the daydreams
So what if 'created systems' was a form of maladaptive daydreaming where instead of daydreaming and the plot/world, the main focus is the CHARACTERS
So consciously or subconsciously the maladaptive daydreamer or 'created system' 'switches' into the different characters and the characters all have their own identity and the 'core' of the 'created system' consciously or subconsciously acts like the characters made, thus thinking that they are multiple/plural
Idk I get the feeling I might be onto something, but who knows
Might just be my yapyapyapyapyapative AHH spitting utter nonsense
PLEASE TELL ME YOUR OPINION ON THIS IM NOT TRYING TO BE RUDE ITS A GENUINE THEORY IM NOT BEING HATEFUL IM SORRY IF I CAME ACROSS THAT WAY :[
-R
no, you dont sound hateful, and this may be controversial but in some cases, and without other coping mechanisms for stressful situations, this could be the case in some instances
i dont think this applies to all created systems obv but i do agree you may be onto something, that in some cases esp in cases where systems are created on purpose as a coping mechanism. not all systems but i do think many who identify as having intentionally fostered the creation of a system likely did so as a means of companionship, stress relief, or aid in daily activites. and like all things, that can become maladaptive. the key is that maladaptive daydreaming is inherantly HARMFUL, so this only applies if their systemhood becomes a detriment to their life.
in my opinion, it could be possible for someone to develop a system as a result of maladaptive daydreaming, and also for the maladaptive daydreaming to BE the systemhood/members if that makes sense. Caused by the thing (and still present once the daydreaming subsides) versus being a part of the thing (and going away once the daydreaming is treated)
DISCLAIMER, however, i want to emphasize that you not fall into the trap of trying to go for people and specifically suggest that they might be a maladaptive daydreamer. that just seems all too similar to going into someones acc and saying "youre delusional" and feels hurtful and devalidating to many. this information is useful, but it is not your place to claim that specific systems are experiencing this, unless they say so publicly themselves first.
rei isnt fronting right now so apologies if i sound a little different, but i havent opened tumblr in a hot second and this has been marinating in the askbox for a while so im just going to answer it (also!! i see you are anon and i do not want to blast you publicly if you dont want to bc this community can be hateful at times, but if youre comfy, dm me!! You seem like a very interesting person to talk to or at least follow, i wanna know who you are 🙏)
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I think being neglected as a child essentially teaches two things : Not being worthy of love and that other people aren’t reliable to depend on and you really only have yourself.
It teaches a kind of independence that can be an advantage in life whilst leaving you unable to do the most basic things like depending on friends or truly trusting others.
If depending on others to much re opens that wound, where you start to feel like you can’t be truly loved or cared for, you will avoid it like the plague.
And often when it comes to it, you will be strong enough to do it by yourself, reinforcing the belief connection just isn’t worth it. People aren’t worth the hassle.
It invokes a need for autonomy and independence, feeling trapped easily by other people’s demands.
Neglect also means being used to a certain level of freedom and getting to make your own choice without a parent being there to force their view onto you. Why compromise if you can have it the way you want, with no one else to meddle?
Formative years were spend juggling decisions for yourself, you had to learn how to view the world thru ur own lense. Formative years were spend deciding a lot in your life for yourself. Peoples expectations that come with their need to connect, can feel like prison now.
It’s like being pulled into independence and liking that toughness and strength yet carrying this vulnerability and wish for care and protection inside all the same, and feeling bad for it.
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Changing our URL to “SysCourse-Yapper” because this got loooooooong.
We really like the points you bring up and enjoy talking with you! We understand if it takes a while- like a while, for you to get through this repose (if you do decide to read!)
Thanks for talking with us, we’ve enjoyed this and had fun! We really appreciate you!
“Why is final fusion different than common childhood integration? It results the same, and is done through the same method; learning to properly confront challenges and have the parts work together.”
Short answer: The Science Says So™️.
Long answer: A.) You have it backwards. It’s not that integration happens because children (and later adults) properly confront challenges and have their parts work together. It’s the CDD systems are unable to properly confront challenges and have their parts work together because they are an integrated whole.
B.) Attachement theory says that infants create the blueprint to their nervous system (which becomes the blueprint for how they interact with people and handle situations) based off how their caregivers handle them in the first year and a half or so of life. When a caregiver is paying attention to their infants needs, and able to take care of those needs, “attunement” happens. An infant has to have their most basic of needs met (being fed, being changed/clean, able to sleep warm and sound) consistently in order for the child to feel safe enough to explore the world with curiosity. The child needs to know the caregiver is a safe place to return to when learning about the world. How is this trust built? Attunement.
There’s four types of attachment styles, which are a basis for all relationships.
Secure attachment is when the caregiver is properly attuned to their infant. This gives the infant feelings of safety and trust, it calms their nervous system (<- properly regulated as a child and adult), it provides grounding and nourishing support and it’s an intimate connect (built in trust, safety and support).
Inconsistent or partial attunement causes two types of insecure attachment:
Avoidant-dismissive attachment, which will result in a person downplaying the importance of relationships and connections to people, tend to have the “flight” response to stress, they put up walls when it comes to receiving support from others, and have little relationship intimacy (how can you when you avoid people?)
Anxious-ambivalent attachment, which will result in neediness and clinginess, a sensitive nervous system (hyper aware of others and stressors), inability to trust others, fear of being left alone, and have a tendency to react when triggered (<- unable to regulate nervous system. Those with the avoidant attachment style avoid people to avoid being triggered. Those with the anxious attachment style cling to people as a way to calm their insecurity, and therefore get triggered).
And finally, the third type of insecure attachment and fourth type of attachment style is disorganized attachment. Disorganized attachment happens when your caregiver is also your abuser. Disorganized attachment results in personality disorders and CDDs. Disorganized attachment is flipping between avoidant and anxious attachment styles (avoiding to people to avoid being triggered to clinging to people to placate insecurity), which means downplaying relationships and also being needy and clingy, having the “flee” stress response and also having a sensitive nervous system (hyper awareness of others and stressors) and reacting when triggered, inability to trust others despite yearning for their connection, putting up barriers to receiving support and care from others while also being fearful of being alone, etc.
The disorganized attachment style as a blueprint in infants results in personality disorders and CDDs. The disorganized attachment style is a result of the infant’s caregiver also being an abuser/source of trauma.
According to the Theory of Structural Dissocoation, C-PTSD, Personality Disorders (PDs) and OSDD are all part of the Secondary Dissociation tier. Like with DID, this is an inability to integrate parts (traumatic memory separated from narrative or normal memory) though not as extreme.
Traumatic memory is stored in a different part of the brain than normal working memory (narrative memory). Along with the traumatic memory is stored all the sensory that occurred during the traumatic event. This is why flashbacks feel the way they do. You feel as though you’re transported back into the time and place when the trauma happened because traumatic memory is stored with all that input, from sensory stimuli to emotions. This is how PTSD works. PTSD is formed from a singular traumatic event.
C-PTSD, PDs and CDDs are formed from long term chronic stress(/trauma/abuse). This means there’s way more than One Traumatic Memory that’s held separate from normal working memory (narrative memory). This is a very difficult thing to navigate when your caregiver is also abusing you. PDs cope with this with splitting (also known as “black-and-white thinking”, “all-or-nothing thinking”, etc, and is unrelated to “splitting” used in plural spaces). We can link a journal that goes way more in depth than we will if you’d like, but essentially, there’s two regions of the brain- one lights up when people/situations are Good and Pleasant and the other lights up when people/situations and Bad and Unpleasant. As a child grows, instead of one or the other region lighting up, both will be on at the same time (with potentially one being more active than the other depending on if a person or situation is more good or bad). This allows a person to understand that the world is painted in shades of grey, and variables- not the whole -are good or bad. But with those who have Personality Disorders, those two regions are never both on. Things are either All Good (with only the Good Memories accessible at the time) or All Bad (with only the Bad Memories accessible at the time). People with PDs have to go to therapy to work on training those regions of the brain to be on at the same time, that’s how persodivergent people have their PDs go into remission.
Now, when it comes to C-PTSD, OSDD and DID, the adaptation is instead to put up dissociative barriers between the normal working memory and traumatic memory. That way, when triggers are encountered, instead of having a flashback like in PTSD, or having regions of the brain flip in and off like in PDs, dissociation happens, to keep the person numb and “unaware” of what’s going on and why, because the pain of the chronic trauma is Too Much.
To recap: the disorganized attachment style as a blueprint in infants results in personality disorders and CDDs. The disorganized attachment style is a result of the infant’s caregiver also being an abuser/source of trauma.
Disorganized attachment results in C-PTSD, PDs and CDDs. Traumatic memory is stored separately from narrative memory, which is normal working memory. People with PDs cope with disorganized attachment via splitting/black-and-white thinking/all-or-nothing thinking/etc. Those with C-PTSD, OSDD and DID cope with disorganized attachment via dissociation.
And now, we have a little spectrum within the TOSD spectrum: C-PTSD, OSDD and DID. All are disorders strongly correlated to chronic childhood trauma, where dissociation is the maladaptive cooing mechanism used against the chronic trauma. The difference between these disorders? How fractured the Self is.
While PTSD, PDs and C-PTSD are all on the Theory of Structural Dissociation spectrum, and all, along with CDDs, have traumatic memory stored away separately from narrative memory, PTSD, PDd and C-PTSD do not result in plurality, because they still have an integrated Self, even if they also feel fragmented, empty, incomplete, etc. This is because the TOSD are disorders of the Narrative Self. Because the traumatic memory is stored separately, the narrative memory is “missing pieces”. This is why these disorders feel the same way CDDs feel, in terms of fragmentation, incompleteness, broken identity, etc. But this isn’t the same as not having integrated parts.
DID is essentially the most extreme form of disorganized attachment, where the infant felt so unsafe and confused by their abusive caregiver, that their resources were spent trying to survive the trauma and lack of care and support in the face of that trauma in order to develop the way those with a secure attachment would. Those infants weren’t able to feel safe so they could be curious and explore the world, they were too busy surviving, to the point that their brain couldn’t even integrate the self-parts, because that energy was needed to be spent surviving. The brain just wasn’t able to develop the way it’s supposed to, because survival, not development, was the number one goal. Of course, brains are fascinating, and it knows what it can compromise in order to survive. It’s not like DID is a neurodevelopmental disorder like autism-spectrum disorders or schizo-spec disorders (although learning disabilities and cognitive impairment is common in those with childhood trauma, for the same reason- the brain doesn’t feel safe to learn, only survive) but the brain knows it can sacrifice self integration in order to make sure basic functions of the body are being met (or trying to be met). The problem with this is the same problem that other dissociative disorders have: dissociation, and lack of self parts integration, may be beneficial in the moment, but when it’s the only coping mechanism the brain knows, then the chronic dissociation and splitting of new self-parts becomes maladaptive and disordered. Hence needing to go to therapy to learn how to ground, build your stress tolerance, unpacking the trauma to remove the preexisting dissociation and other maladaptive coping mechanisms to replace them with healthy coping mechanisms but only after the brain feels safe enough to finally confront and deal with what it’s been hiding all along, and potentially either final fusion which is the closest to integrated parts a CDD system can get, or functional multiplicity.
Hopefully that answers your first question. We highly suggest you read about attachment theory, the theory of structural dissociation beyond did-research.org, and potentially maybe read, “The Body Keeps The Score” by Bessel van der Kolk to really get an understanding over everything we just info dumped all over you 🥲.
On to question two:
“The fact that people with DID/OSDD still split after the original main parts (and that they can still continue to aplit after final fusion) is evidence that new parts are constantly being made/added even if fusion/integration is fully irreversible.”
Yes, CDD systems continuing to split is because that’s the only coping mechanism the brain knows, due to the blueprint of disorganized attachment that was provided in infancy. Because the brain was too busy trying to survive to integrate parts, new parts are constantly being split. Trauma/stress is the number one cause of new splits, and that’s because the CDD system never learned a way to deal with stress due to their caregiver also being an abuser. For those with dissociative disorders, the only way to cope was to escape (detaching the traumatic memory from the narrative memory), because the CDD system wasn’t taught how to properly deal with stress (secure attachment = knowing they can handle it, avoiding attachment = avoid stress, anxious = needing others for help during stress, disorganized = avoiding stress and needing help from others).
The thing is, while the uninformed love to spout that trauma is the only way to split alters, this is factually untrue. As singlets grow up, they learn all kinds of new skills: social and interpersonal skills, life skills, financials skills, etc etc. These new skills are integrated into the Self. Because CDD systems never integrated, they will split parts for these skills. These may be ANPs or Caregivers or whatever else. The same sort of thing happens each time a CDD system encounters a challenge or new stress: if it’s something that an already existing headmate has the skills for, then that headmate will handle it (protector, caregiver, ANP, etc). If the system doesn’t have the skills required, a new part will split to develop those lacking skills. This is where systems get incredibly varied, and why hyper-specific roles vary from system to system. One system might have one part who gets them ready for the day, one part who drives them to work, one part that works, one part that winds the body down, one part that gets them to bed, and one part that sleeps. Another system might have a host that can handle the mundane, such as work, food, personal hygiene and life skills, and then switch out for triggers or during times of stress, where a different part, potentially a trauma or stress holder, can handle all that stuff instead. It’s just going to depend on system to system, what they need, what they know, what they can handle. How difficult the skills are, his stressful the situation is that’s needing skills, and what each systems stress tolerance is are variables that determine whether or not a new member is needed. If a system is in a stable place, those skills may be absorbed into a preexisting member. If the system is already stressed, has no support or sense of stability, new parts are likely to be formed over each little thing, if the system is already or chronically overwhelmed.
This is also why new parts can be split after final fusion (assuming a traumatic event doesn’t “unfuse” the system and create new parts). A fused system may come across a situation they lack skills for, and they split someone with those skills. Remember, final fusion isn’t the same as integrating parts as a child, and the brain will always rely on old habits. The goal in recovery for CDDs is to learn how to tolerate and manage stress so that splits happen less, regardless of one is taking the final fusion or functional multiplicity route. Splits happening isn’t a failure of FF, or the system. It’s just what the brain knows. The new split can also be integrated into the fused system. And that will more than likely be the norm for the fused system! (The important part is that the dissociative symptoms associated with new splits isn’t present, or is at least manageable so that it’s not disordered. Remission doesn’t mean lack of a CDD, it means the CDD is no longer disordered).
“Why couldn't a singlet fail to integrate THOSE?”
New parts are always being added to CDD systems, yes. But that doesn’t mean that a singlet will stop being a singlet and suddenly develop parts that hold skills they otherwise wouldn’t have.
At best, dissociation in C-PTSD will not allow the dissociated singlet to learn anything at all This happens as a result of childhood trauma. This comes back to neuroplasticity- it’s scary for a traumatized individual to learn new things, and try new things. This is why recovery is scary and painful. This is why trauma victims continue to get into abusive relationships- it’s what the brain knows. It’s takes conscious effort to change behavior, but a dissociated singlet can integrate those skills- by reshaping the neuroplasticity of their brain, also known as “rewiring the brain” or “creating new neuropathways”. The brain wants to take the pathway it knows, instead of creating a whole new pathway, so it avoids new information, new situations, new people (THIS IS WHY WE SAY AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT PRO-ENDOS NEEDS TO LEAVE ANTI-ENDOS ALONE. THEY LITERALLY ARE INCAPABLE OF ACCEPTING INFORMATION THAT CHANGES THEIR WORLDVIEW. THEIR BRAIN IS USING THE BODY’S RESOURCES TO SURVIVE. ONLY ONCE A PERSON FEELS SAFE AND SECURE CAN THEY BEGIN TO EXPLORE THE WORLD. JUST LIKE INFANTS). While it may reject new information (failure to integrate the information) that doesn’t mean the information/skills/etc is going to be stored as a self-part separate from the integrated self. It’s just information that’s not being absorbed in by the brain.
Likewise, let’s say someone with C-PTSD dissociates all through their math class. That dissociated singlet isn’t suddenly going to have a part that knows algebra. That’s just information that hasn’t been absorbed by the brain.
Once integration has happened, there’s no failure to continue to integrate parts. The brain will always continue to integrate information learned. Kind of like autism or being schizo-spec: once it happens, it happens. There’s no undoing autism spectrum disorders or schizo-spectrum disorders. You also can’t become autistic or schizo. You either are or you aren’t. You either have integrated self parts, or you don’t.
Of course, some may argue that OSDD/P-DID suggests there may be some sort of halfway or partial integration of self-parts, however there are those who believe that OSDD shouldn’t be a separate diagnosis from DID, and the only difference between P-DID and DID is the absence of switching. This doesn’t necessarily mean those with P-DID have a partial integrated of self parts compared to those with DID.
The next point:
“And if they are not being added, then that would mean that it is NOT completely permanent, as again, people with DID/OSDD can still split after final fusion.”
As stated above, the closest you can get to this scenario is someone dissociating (<- either normally or maladaptively) instead of taking in new information. This doesn’t result in a dissociated self-part containing the information, the information was simply never absorbed into the brain.
And again, the CDD final fusion =/= as a singlet’s integrated self. A fused system essentially “mimics” (for lack of a better word) a singlet’s integrated self, but it takes a lot of effort and healing to get to and maintain final fusion. Of course a fused system can continue to split new parts (muscle memory, or in this case, old neuropathways). Just because a fused system can split new parts or unfuse doesn’t mean a singlet can split parts (in the same exact way a CDD system can for the same reason a CDD system can) or unfuse. This is because the integrated self stays integrated. A fused system is “mimicking” integration (for a lack of a better word), and can come undone, because it was undone to being with.
“Also, I would think that CDD systems to some extent CAN adapt to new information. At least as far as we're aware, some of our alters have made the choice to confront problems.”
This is absolutely true. Keep in mind, everything we’re discussing is essentially about an undiscovered system who has no awareness, no support and no other coping mechanisms. It’s completely possible for alters to take on challenges, especially if they have the skills for it. Or, a system may be in a comfort, safe, and stable space where they have the ability to confront issues. And remember, everyone’s tolerance is different. Maybe you can confront problems that are completely divorced from your trauma. Maybe you or your headmates are able to confront problems because they’re unaware of specific trauma. Maybe your headmates are The Confronters Of Problems, because your system learned the skill of Confronting Problems somewhere along the way, and now you have Problem Confronters in your system!
For us personally, we didn’t learn to confront problems until we were medicated and in therapy, and it took almost a year of therapy before we tried confronting any problems. Because we were getting better and in a better place, these skills didn’t get split into a new part, but were absorbed by someone we already had. When we had a system collapse, the new parts formed with these skills transferred over to them as well. So now we don’t have to have the old part fronting to Confront Problems, but we can also Confront Problems on our own. This is where the diversity of systems really come into play. Mileage will vary, and no experience is universal (part of why our language is so vague and why you may be getting confused. Apologies if that’s the case!)
Also something to consider- all of this is subconscious. When it comes to traumagenic splits, no one is sitting around thinking, “man I have an interview tomorrow. I’m going to make a split happen so we now have an Interview Guy in our system”. The brain copes with stress by splitting/forcing parts into front (depending on if the system has the skills needed to take on whatever is causing the stress which is triggering dissociation). It’s also important to remember that parts dissolve back down into fragments, which get reabsorbed into new splits, parts fuse, split apart again and can go dormant as well. The system itself can also be fluid and fluctuate over time as different skills are needed or disregarded or recycled or what have you. Maybe as a child you had a part that talked about Pokémon on the school playground. You’re no longer a child. You don’t go to playgrounds. You haven’t played a Pokémon game in 15 years. That part got absorbed into the system Socializer when they split, because that playground-Pokémon-part knew how to talk to others.
Um. We think we covered it all 🥲
We know that the current main theory for DID is that someone's sense of identity never fully integrated, and is no longer than someone's identity "broke"
but we do question the possibility of both.
Plus the logic that "DID usually happens before 5"
If plural people can fuse and become one, why would it not be possible for the reverse to happen? Especially since even those that go through final fusion are still perfectly capable of splitting again.
Dissociation can be learned at any age, and is essentially the brain going "That isn't me experiencing this"
More severe/frequent dissociation can occur even in people who experienced trauma later in life, too.
So doesn't that mean that theoretically, it would be possible for someone to split later in life?
Also the fact that identity is still being discovered and adopted into who someone is as a person continuously throughout their life.
Most development happens at a younger age.
But even then, that main chunk usually doesn't finish until around the start of puberty.
So even WITH the current theory, why wouldn't it be possible for it to occur later due to separation of newer parts of self-image?
We just want to add, we absolutely believe in endogenic systems.
We just wanted to share a thought, and maybe spark conversation.
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The way it feels like 49.5% of discourse are the same handful of arguments getting recycled by new SysCoursers, 49.5% are CDD infighting about people not using a standardized, "acceptable" language to describe their experiences, and the final 1% is actual information people can use.
Arguing about linguistic schematics aside, here's scientific reasoning why people may perceive or describe what happens in their innerworld as though it's real.
Mind-Body Connection
"Perhaps the best way to begin is by making a mental list of the sorts of things we find stressful [ ... ] traffic, deadlines, family relationships, money worries [ ... ] 'Think like a zebra for a second'. Suddenly, new items might appear at the top of your list-- serious physical injury, predators, starvation [ ... ] For animals like zebras, the most upsetting thing in life are acute physical crises. These are extremely stressful events, and they demand immediate physiological adaptations if you are going to live. Your body's responses are brilliantly adapted for handling this sort of emergency." "An organism can also be plagued by chronic physical challenges [ ... ] Drought, famine, parasites, that sort of unpleasantness-- not the sort of experience we have often, but central to the lives of non-westernized humans and most other mammals. The body's stress-responses are reasonably good at handling these sustained disasters." "Critical to this book is a third category of ways to get upset-- psychological and social disruptions [ ... ] Viewed from the perspective of the evolution of the animal kingdom, sustained psychological stress is a recent invention, mostly limited to humans and other social primates. We can experience wildly strong emotions (provoking our bodies into an accompanying uproar) linked to mere thoughts*." *"The neurologist Antonio Damasio recounts a wonderful study done on the conductor Hebert von Karajan, showing that the maestro's heart would race just as wildly when he was listening to a piece of music as when he was conducting it."
"Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers" by: Robert M. Sapolsky
"We can experience wildly strong emotions (provoking our bodies into an accompanying uproar) linked to mere thoughts."
Not only is this a common enough human experience that people make relatable jokes about becoming pissed off or hurt with people, in the shower or otherwise, due to imagined scenarios in their head (because the body's nervous system is reacting to imagined scenarios as though they were happening in real life, and in real time) but this is also the foundation for anxiety disorders and depression. CBT is a therapy that teaches people to recognize the physiological signs of anxiety/depression, so that they can better understand what's going on in their heads. Ruminating about an upcoming stressful event causes the same physiological response as actually living through and engaging with the stressful event. This is where anxiety disorders come from, people living in a chronic state of negative anticipation and worry, causing them to behave as though they're actually living through the things going on in their mind.
So, we can move forward with the understanding of the "mind-body" connection, that's what happening in the mind very much effects the body, thanks to the nervous system (of which the brain is a part of, mind you). Both imagined and ruminated scenarios can cause the same physical reaction in the body as the actual stressor that's being imagined/ruminated upon. In a similar sense, flashbacks and intrusive thoughts in PTSD are felt within the body as though the remembered event is actually happening again. What is felt in the mind echoes though the body as though it's real, even if it isn't (this doesn't mean the person has to think or believe it's real. Imagining scenarios, rumination, intrusive thoughts and flashbacks are fully separate from psychosis, a disorder of loosing touch with reality. They're not the same experiences. The mind-body connection causes the body to react to imagined stressors the same way as the body would to an actual stressor).
Innerworlds & The Phantasia Spectrum
Innerworlds, mindscapes, or headspaces, aren't unique or exclusive to systems, and they're not even inherently pathological.
As mentioned above, those with aphantasia won't have an innerworld. Those with phantasia will, those with hyperphantasia have a detailed or "hyperactive" imagination, that doesn't just utilize visualization, but all five senses.
phantasia: Aristotle coins the term phantasia in De Amina (On the Soul), Part III, to describe a distinct capacity between perception and thought — a sort of ‘sixth sense.’ Phantasia is commonly translated to imagination and is often explained in the context of visualizing and dreaming. [ x ]
aphantasia: Aphantasia is the inability to visualize. Otherwise known as image-free thinking [ ... ] Aphantasia was only given a name in 2015. And yet we have known about this unique variation as early as the 1800s. British psychologist Francis Galton first identified ‘non-imagers’ in his Breakfast Study. [ x ]
hypophantasia: Hypophantaisa is characterized by a low visual imagination. Hypo – meaning low. Hypophantasics, or people with hypophantasia, have described experiences almost like aphantasia, where visual imagery is completely absent. Hypophantasics may only experience flashes or struggle to create mental images. This phenomenon can extend to other senses in your imagination, such as auditory (sound), gustatory (taste), olfactory (smell) imagination, etc. [ x ]
hyperphantasia: Hyperphantasia is characterized by an abundance of mental imagery. Or in other words, a very vivid imagination. People with hyperphantasia can create clear and detailed images in their minds, often to the point where these mental images have a ‘lifelike‘ quality. It is the opposite of aphantasia, where mental imagery is absent. This phenomenon doesn’t just impact visual imagination. It can extend to other senses, such as auditory (sound), olfactory (smell), gustatory (taste), tactile (bodily sensation), and motor (movement) imagination. In addition to vividness and clarity, mental imagery could also vary in mode. Projectors perceive their mental image as superimposed onto their visual experience, whereas, associators do not “see” mental images but can nevertheless have a clear visual representation in their mind. [ x ]
What exactly is an "inner world"?
"Sigmund Freud, was an early proponent of inside-out psychology, as he excavated the buried but living unconscious inner world. [ ... ], Melanie Klein, spelled it out further by saying that we each have an unconscious internal world populated by our feelings, experiences, and memories that we experience in a very concrete way, as if various versions of ourselves and others are alive inside us. She even had the conception of this inner world being the control center of our lives with “internal objects” managed by these different parts of ourselves." - "You Have An Inner World: So What?" | Psychology Today (forgive us for using PT as a source; because inner worlds aren't inherently pathological, the limited funding and resources that the field of psychiatry and psychology gets are not spent on research into inner worlds, but into areas of pathology to better increase disordered people's quality of life).
Depending on where you are on the phantasia spectrum depends on how you visualize and engage with your inner world. For example, Inner Worlds are a part of IFS, where different IFS parts represent different "internal objects" as described by Klein. Some may have to utilized play therapy along with IFS to communicate between IFS parts. Some may be able to communicate via journaling, and can draw their IFS parts. Others may have a place they visualize where the IFS parts all "live" and interact with one another, that may be accessed at any time. It just depends on the individual.
Another word we'd like to also bring up is paracosm.
paracosm: A paracosm is a detailed imaginary world thought generally to originate in childhood. The creator of a paracosm has a complex and deeply felt relationship with this subjective universe, which may incorporate real-world or imaginary characters and conventions. Commonly having its own geography, history, and language, it is an experience that is often developed during childhood and continues over a long period of time, months or even years, as a sophisticated reality that can last into adulthood. The concept was first described by Robert Silvey, with later research by British psychiatrist Stephen A. MacKeith and British psychologist David Cohen. The term "paracosm" was coined by Ben Vincent, a participant in Silvey's 1976 study and a self-professed paracosmist. [ x ]
While the term "paracosm" isn't unique to immersive or maladaptivae daydreaming, it is largely used in that community, with "para" (meaning "beside" or "next to", as in "parallel") being the root word for most ID/MaDD labels. Eli Somer, the one who: discovered the dissociative absorption daydreaming spectrum, has studied it, created proposed diagnostic criteria for MaDD, and has been pushing for MaDD to be recognized by the APA and WHO as a legitimate disorder requiring its own diagnosis for the treatment of patients, makes it clear that the daydream worlds, or paracosms, are inner worlds with their own narratives and lore (this is why the term 'paracosm' is used by the ID/MaDD community despite the two concepts being discovered separately, however, as of now, paracosms aren't exclusive to ID/MaDD).
That means it's completely possible for a system to have hyperphantasia, which means all five of their senses are being engaged while imagining, and may also be superimposed on to reality, and also imagining a construct that has a narrative and lore. This isn't "just" visualization, and while we understand why those with aphantasia reduce it down as such, because you can't possibly understand how incredibly rich and deep the experience is, it really is a disservice to water down the experience to such.
Now, if you take into consideration that someone with hyperphantsaia is having all their sense engaged when imagining their inner world, and that the mind-body reaction causes the body to react to imagined scenarios as though they're real, then yes, hyperphantasia causes inner world happenings, including emotional, physical, mental, etc stimuli, to be felt in the body as though it's real.
Dissociative Disconnect Between Internal And External Experiences
And finally, as the last layer to this, we will look at SzPD and MaDD. SzPD is marked by intense, extreme and chronic DPDR (due to ipseity disturbance/minimal self disorder as much as dissociation), and MaDD is a proposed disorder that's an addiction to a particular type of dissociative absorption daydreaming known as immersive daydreaming. The "schizoid" in SzPD means "split" (which is where the "schizo" in all schizo-spec (minus AvPD) disorders come from), which is referring to the "split" between the schizoid "outer external experience" (filtered through a sort of avatar/persona) and the internal schizoid experience, which is marked by a rich, deep internal fantasy, comparable to ID/MaDD (it's worth noting that while hyperphantasia isn't exclusive to schizo-spec disorders, it is linked to them).
Aphantasia and psychological disorder: Current connections, defining the imagery deficit and future directions
Carl Jung: a life on the edge of reality with hypnagogia, hyperphantasia, and hallucinations
High Schizotypal Individuals Are More Creative? The Mediation Roles of Overinclusive Thinking and Cognitive Inhibition
For both those with SzPD and MaDD, reality can feel bland, dull and flat compared to the feelings they get within their daydreams. Often times, pwSzPD and pwMaDD will talk about how their daydreams and fantasies feel "more real" than reality due to the differences in blunt affect of reality and the emotional richness and depth of their daydreams. It's not that there's a level of psychosis happening, and they literally believe fantasy is real, but that daydreams feel more real, due to how internal fantasy is experienced versus reality.
Schizoid Fantasy: Refuge or Transitional Location?
The Object Relations Theory of Ronald Fairbairn
Schizoid Fantasy [ pdf ]
When Imagination Feels Like Reality: A Case Study of False Memories and Maladaptive Daydreaming in Visual Impairment
Life feels so dull without daydreaming r/MaladaptiveDaydreaming
Does maladaptive daydreaming make you feel like everything is unreal? r/MaladaptiveDaydreaming
We feel this may also happen with CDD systems, especially if the host of a CDD system is an ANP, and that the system has hyperphantasia. ANP intentionally by design lack emotional depth as a way to avoid the system as a whole being triggered, and tend to suffer from blunt affect, alexithymia, apathy, etc (unless being influenced via passive influence, or other factors, of course. This isn't to say all ANP hosts are always 100% emotionally dead and detached, feeling like ghosts haunting the body's narrative, but it is a common experience in those who have a history of childhood trauma). Compare a host's outer experience of intentionally being emotionally dulled, and strong emotions being "siphoned off" and compartmentalized into the various emotions/symptoms/trauma/etc holders of the system so the ANP host doesn't have the feel/experience those things, to the experience of hyperphantasia and a paracosm as an innerworld. The host will more thn likely describe the innerworld as though it's real, because the mind-body connection causes the body to react to imagined stiumuli as though it's real. And when imagination is the only time an ANP host, or a pwSzPD, or a pwMaDD (or someone who's all 3) experiences feeling, it will, internally, feel more real and be perceived as real/potentially more real, than reality.
There's also a whole conversation to be had around how phantasia and hyperphantasia can be utilized, for better or worse, when it comes to reenacting trauma and abuse within the system, or as a way to cope maladaptively or healthily, or how to aide in recovery, and how this harm or help is experienced with the system. Or how what's going on inside the inner world may depend on who's fronting and what's going on internally (do they need coping, if so, in what way? What is it the host is coping with: trauma, loneliness, symptoms, etc. Is abuse being reenacted within the system? Is trauma, or a negative experience, being processed? etc.)
.. at this point do you maybe think your inability to empathize with complex innerworld experiences might have something to do with the fact that you dont have the ability to visualize a vivid inner world? because you just said those two things back to back and it made some things click for me
No it's cause I know it's not a literal event and it's just visualization. I don't need to be good at visualization to understand that's what an iw is, that's the entire reason I don't have one... I know what it is and I can't do that
Anyone who says iw shit is literally happening is wrong, no matter how complex their system is or how good at visualization they are
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We are not one to get into syscourse and this will probably be deleted later but y'all cannot say "endos steal from us endos bad 🤬🤬🤬" then go on to do the exact same thing you claim endos do 😭 it's hypocritical " i like this term but it made by an Endo so I'm gonna steal it!!" Didn't you just send systems literally death threats bc they used the terms switch introject ECT????
Please just follow what you preach or else no one is gonna take you srsly if you yell at endos to not use "your terms" then don't use any terms that where made by endos!!! This means no more factive/fictive since it was made by a soulbound system!!!
PRACTICE WHAT YOU FUCKING PREACH
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WHAT IS POLYFRAGMENTATION
a common misconception i see in the community is that polyfragmentation refers to having a high alter count, and id like to talk about what it actually means polyfragmentation is characterized by a complex system structure, complex splitting patterns, a large number of fragments, a lack of non-dissociative coping mechanisms, and often trauma that began at an early age and impacted all areas of life COMPLEX SYSTEM STRUCTURE - often involving layers, subsystems, or other divisions within the system that keep alters separate in groups COMPLEX SPLITTING PATTERNS - this involves splitting in groups, splitting multiple alters to hold different parts of the same trauma, etc LARGE FRAGMENT COUNT - polyfragmented systems will have a high fragment count, fragments are alters who lack a full sense of identity LACK OF NON-DISSOCIATIVE COPING MECHANISMS - where splitting would typically be a last resort for most systems, polyfragmented systems can be pushed to the point of splitting much easier, even from daily life stressors EARLY LIFE TRAUMA - according to richard p kluft, polyfragmented DID is often caused by longstanding severe abuse beginning early in life - grey
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SysCourse Myth: 「 Spiritual Plurality 」
☆ DiSCLAiMER ☆ [ please read before engaging ]
✧ — 「 Tulpa =/= Spiritual Plurality 」
Within the plurality community, and even within the scientific community, “tulpa” and associated words have become an umbrella term. In scientific studies and in SysCourse, “tulpa” and “tulpa systems” have come to exclusively mean “created non-traumagenic systems” (and in SysCourse specifically, it tends to mean “Faker” like “endogenic”). “Tulpa” has also come to be the umbrella term for spiritual plurality. Just like with the non-traumagenic experience, tulpamancy isn’t the beginning and end of the spiritual plurality experience, and there’s several ways to be spiritually plural without being involved in tulpamancy.
While the term "tulpa" may come from a term used by Tibetan Monks, and meditation is used during the creation of a tulpa, tulpamancy itself isn't inherently a religious practice. Tulpamancy is simply a way to create endogenic headmates, and happens to borrow from rspiritual concepts. Other Created System terms include: parogenic and willogenic.
Tulpagenic: a non-pathological system origin; tulpas, according to western interpretation, are entities intentionally created in the mind parallel to your own consciousness. Despite the origin of the community, the majority of tulpagenic systems believe their experience to be a purely psychological phenomenon.
Parogenic: a non-pathological system origin; parogenic systems are systems formed by free will. This includes tulpamancy, some soulbonding, and thoughtforms.
Willogenic: a non-pathological system origin; a willogenic system is a system that was purposely created, or willed into existence, through psychological or spiritual means. It is a term for purposefully created systems that is not connected to parogenic systems or tulpa systems, due to the controversy of tulpamancy. Due to the nature of the term, it does not encompass systems that consider themselves to have used tulpamancy to create their system.
Definitions are sourced from Pluralpedia.
Tulpagenic, Parogenic, and Willogenic are origin labels for plurals that intentionally created headmates. Tulpamancu belongs under the umbrella term Parogenic, while Willogenic separates itself from those two terms, due to the controversy around the "tulpa" term itself. Both Parogenic and Willogenic are umbrella terms that can include headmates and systems of a spiritual origin, but isn't exclusive to spiritual systems.
✦ — 「 What Is A Spiritual System And How/Why Do They Exist? 」
According to Pluralpedia, a Spiritual System is, "a system that is either or both spiritual or metaphysical in origin (for example, being aethergenic, metagenic, spirigenic, or possessive) or architecture (such as being a gateway system, an exosystem/exoplex, intraspiric or hemi-intraspiric), or simply having many godlets who identify with or as their sources. The term is a general umbrella that encompasses all systems whose spirituality or metaphysical belief impacts or influences their experience of plurality."
Some examples of spiritual plurality may include, but aren't limited too: godphoning (Godphones | A Community created for all the Pagans and Witches out there! , Diety Communication | Mad Diviner), channeling (Spiritual Channeling: Discover Your Hidden Abilities | Gaia , What Is Channeling and Are There Different Types of Channeling? | Anne Reith), certain types of ancestor worship (may be soulgenic), certain reincarnation/past lives spirituality (may be soulgenic), as well as cosmagenisis (origin label for systems who have headmates who originated from other planes of existence, universes, timelines, realms, etc. This can be both traumagenic and endogenic in origin, as headmates could appear for various reasons (ex: stress, a call for help, wanting to shift realities, etc.) Definition taken from Pluralpedia).
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SysCourse Myth: 「 DID Isn’t A Trauma Disorder 」
☆ DiSCLAiMER ☆ [ please read before engaging ]
Endogenics claim that DID isn’t a trauma disorder because trauma isn’t mentioned in the diagnostic criteria in the DSM or ICD for DID. When sources are provided stating the childhood trauma has a strong correlation to the development of DID, endogenic plurals claim that the language isn’t absolute, therefore, DID isn’t 100% a trauma disorder and has no correlation to trauma.
Here’s a paper from Cambridge University that discusses the history and differences between the Fantasy Model of DID and the Trauma Model of DID, how there’s neurobiological evidence of DID being related to PTSD and therefore existing on a continuum with the trauma disorder (just as the Theory Of Structural Dissociation suggests), and that the DSM is organized in such a way so that PTSD and its subset, dissociative PTSD (C-PTSD/Complex-PTSD) is followed by Dissociative Disorders to show their relation to one another.
“Neurobiological evidence for the trauma model of DID
“According to DSM-5 criteria, DID is characterised by, among other things, two or more distinct identities or personality states that coincide, with fluctuating consciousness and changing access to autobiographical memory. Personality-state-dependent brain activation was found for the first time in 1985 in a single patient at rest and has been confirmed in independent studies over time. In 2003, the first multi-participant stimulus-driven brain-imaging study revealed personality-state-dependent processing of neutral and trauma-related autobiographical memory scripts. In a follow-up study it was shown that individuals with DID can be distinguished from DID-simulating healthy controls with high and low levels of fantasy proneness. Importantly, these simulation-independent differences in brain activation patterns between different personality states in DID were replicated in an independent sample, altogether discrediting the fantasy model for DID. In DSM-5 a dissociative subtype for PTSD was included and the dissociative disorders were placed immediately after the trauma- and stress-related disorders, to suggest a close relationship between dissociative PTSD and DID. Research confirmed similarities in brain activation patterns during emotion overmodulation and undermodulation in an indirect comparison between the two. These neurobiological similarities between personality states in DID and PTSD subtypes support a trauma-related aetiology of DID.
“As regards neurostructural evidence, a smaller hippocampal volume is the most consistently reported neuroanatomical correlate of childhood traumatisation. Negative correlations between childhood maltreatment and hippocampal volume have been reported in both unmedicated individuals from the general community and transdiagnostically in people with psychiatric disorders. Chalavi, Vissia, Giesen, Nijenhuis, Draijer and Cole built on this evidence to study hippocampal global and subfield volumes in PTSD and DID in relation to childhood traumatisation with the aim of directly testing the trauma model for DID. They found a negative correlation between hippocampal volumes and childhood traumatisation across the two disorders, thereby providing neuroanatomical evidence for the clinical observations that DID is related to (severe) childhood trauma. This finding is particularly important because neuroanatomical data are unlikely to be subject to cognitive manipulation. Hence, these findings support the notion that DID is closely related to PTSD, as indicated by its placement in DSM-5, especially when childhood trauma is involved, and provide evidence for the trauma model of DID. The finding that DID is related to environmental factors was further supported by a multicentre study that evaluated the neurodevelopmental origins of abnormal cortical morphology in DID. This study examined overall cortical volume and its two constitutes, that is, cortical thickness and surface area, in individuals with DID. It found that individuals with DID differed from controls on all three measures and provided evidence that non-genetic, environmental factors affect multiple aspects of brain development in DID. Negative associations between abnormal brain morphology and early childhood traumatisation were found as well.
“Taken together, brain activation studies have validated the DSM-5 identity criterion of DID by showing the existence of two or more distinct personality states, each with their own distinct pattern of brain activation in response to autobiographical trauma-related information. Studies of brain structure in DID have shown that DID is not likely to be a neurodevelopmental disorder but that environmental factors, such as early childhood traumatisation, have an impact on brain morphology in DID.”
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It’s okay if you’re not in a place in your life where you can listen.
It’s okay if you’re not in a place in your life where you can accept.
It’s okay if you’re not in a place in your life where you can challenge your current beliefs or change them.
It’s okay if you’re too busy trying to survive your environment and yourself to consider the world, and how others are so rich and different than you.
It’s okay, one day you will.
And in the meantime, maybe just keep in the back of your mind that non-traumagenic plurality isn’t the same as, or trying to be, the same as traumagenic plurality.
Just keep in the back of your mind that the reason that endogenic plurality sounds so different than your traumagenic plurality isn’t because endogenic plurals are faking, but because the endogenic experience truly is so very different than the traumagenic experience (for example, the trauma response symptoms that plague CDDs).
And one day, when you’re no longer focused on having to survive, when you’re in a place of peace, and have energy and time to explore the world, you can think about and explore it then.
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Hi, there. I'm seeking more scholarly, academic or formalized information on endogenic plurality. Could you recommend books? Thank you.
We don't know of any books, but there are academic articles on endogenics!
General Articles:
Enacted Identities: Multiplicity, Plurality, and Tulpamancy: It's talking about plurality, but is heavily focused on the non-traumagenic sides of the community.
Multiplicity: An Explorative Interview Study on Personal Experiences of People with Multiple Selves: One endogenic system took part in the study, and the researchers discuss their overall findings and the possibility of some sort of hereditary component to some systems.
Dissociation and Transformation: Talks about the possibility of dissociation being a symptom of good health, rather than always pathological.
Dissociative Experiences in the General Population (pdf): Surveys a city for dissociative experiences, and found that at least some spontaneous dissociative experiences may be due to endogenous factors.
Alterity: Learning polyvalent selves, resisting disabling notions of the self
Differences Between Trance Channeling and Multiple Personality Disorder on Structured Interview: Compares trance channeling and MPD (what is now called DID), and concludes that differences in experiences may have to do with whether they're trauma-based or not. (Channelers aren't necessarily endogenic, but it does go into why despite having multiple identities, trance channelers don't have DID. This may be relevant for some forms of spiritual endogenic plurality.)
New Age 'Channeling' and Theories of Dissociation: Applying a 'Structural Dissociation of the Personality' Model to the Case of Jane Roberts: A really good thesis comparing a famous channeler (Jane Roberts) with dissociative identity disorder. (Channelers aren't necessarily endogenic, but it does go into why despite having multiple identities she didn't have DID. This may be relevant for some forms of spiritual endogenic plurality.)
Soulbonding:
The illusion of independent agency: Do adult fiction writers experience their characters as having minds of their own?
Uncharted features and dynamics of reading: Voices, characters, and crossing of experiences: Many readers seem to hear the voices of the characters they're reading about in books as they're reading it, with a rare few even hearing their voices even after they're finished reading.
Most Authors Can 'Hear' Their Characters' Voices Talking to Them, Survey Reveals: Up to 63% of authors hear their characters talking to them, showing that this is a fairly common phenomenon.
Tulpas/Thoughtforms:
Tulpas and Mental Health: A Study of Non-Traumagenic Plural Experiences
Varieties of Tulpa Experiences: Sentient Imaginary Friends, Embodied Joint Attention, and Hypnotic Sociality in a Wired World
Learning to Discern the Voices of Gods, Spirits, Tulpas and the Dead: compares and contrasts tulpamancy and other communities centered around voices, spirits or disembodied entities
Hopefully this helps! If any of our followers know of any books talking about endogenic plurality (or any other resources in general) please feel free to add on!
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Why I left the RAMCOA community
I'll be flat out honest I started questioning as soon as the insta community got deep into conspiracy theories. They were talking new world order, the world is secretly controlled by a bunch of nazis, all people in power are in on it, pop stars and actors are all programmed. Someone told me with all seriousness that Miley Cyrus and Brittney Spears were programmed media plants.
Obviously this was a red flag.
So I left that community because and it got incredibly fearmongering. Spam calls were your organization trying to recontact you. You can't open up to anyone cause they might secretly be part of your organization. Organizations were moving and trying to get all of the people they programmed back. It got to stuff like the media is purposefully triggering your programs and all organizations are connected.
You could only trust certain therapists and could never look into it or you'll trigger a suicide program.
One day I went fuck it and read a whole bunch of shit on RAMCOA and I found out surprise I was right, no programming. I triggered the hell out of myself admittedly but my reaction was nowhere near as bad as everyone told me it would be. It didn't make me suicidal for sure.
I dodged a bullet.
This for sure tainted my opinions on RAMCOA because my personal experience was so shitty, but in doing my extra research I read things like Alison Millers book. I read a lot from the people who coined RAMCOA and who sat on the RAMCOAsig. And it was weird, only a few people actually recognized the term. There was not much on it but there was a lot on organized abuse and all the traumas considered RAMCOA. If you ignored the acronym and the term programming, you found a ton of stuff on what was basically RAMCOA and programming.
After reading all these works I started reading other websites and papers on OA. Websites geared for survivors and papers on the types of trauma. And the mystic veil that was always up around RAMCOA suddenly fell apart. I understood it for the first time. People weren't hiding it all under conspiracy theories and fearmongering like the communities I'd been in and the books I read. They weren't so anti research and self education.
When I searched for community and resources on RAMCOA I only got fearmongering and conspiracy theories. When I searched for community and resources on OA I got actually communities and survivor resources.
So yeah not only is the origin of the term RAMCOA problematic but there are RAMCOA communities equally problematic, if not more.
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Move Away From RAMCOA
Note: This is not my post!!! Someone else asked me to post it on their behalf and they wish to stay anonymous
What is this? Here is a list of sources, citations, and explanations for each of them aimed at debunked claims surrounding the ISSTD and their foundation- more specifically their controversial SRA, RAMCOA, OEA, and other terms section.
SRA, later becoming the RA in RAMCOA, stands for Satanic Ritual Abuse. This terminology was created during the Satanic Panic, a period in the 1980s-90s where public officials, law enforcement, and otherwise regular individuals held a widespread belief and panic over the idea of Satanic Cults running amok in the United States. This panic was taken advantage of by various people as a way to spread their own agenda, and was later disproved as a conspiracy theory by the government, several times. (X)(X)
The ISSTD was founded in 1983 during the Satanic Panic to study DID, SRA, and the connection between the two of them. “In the 1980s, Braun became a leading proponent of the satanic ritual abuse theory, and appeared on TV promoting it. According to this theory, thousands of children were being subjected to organized acts of murder, torture, human sacrifice, cannibalism and sexual abuse throughout America, in elaborate ceremonies performed by Satan-worshippers.”(X) (X) Braun, whom at the time still possessed his license, went on to directly link the formation of all DID with the occurrence of SRA, he would then go on to attempt to have this added to the DSM as a diagnostic criteria, publishing articles and other research on it to oppose his colleges who did not buy in to the panic, going as far to accuse those who did not agree with him were in fact perpetrators/members themselves. (X) Each of Brauns claims have been debunked over the years including a police and government effort that investigated over 12,000 official documented claims of SRA. (X) Braun has been sued twice by former patients for his malpractice, and has been accused on multiple accounts of feeding his conspiratorial beliefs to them. His license was suspended twice before it was revoked and he was expelled from the Illinois and American Psychiatry Societies.(X) He continued to play a central role in the ISSTD until 2021.
Collin Ross, one of the lead researchers into RAMCOA, was found guilty of medical malpractice, convincing one of his patients that she was impregnated by aliens through a satanic cult, though his license was not revoked. He has also gone on record saying that he, and other people, can shoot energy from their eyes that can be captured. He follows in Braun’s footsteps, and continues to be an active member of RAMCOA research even today. (X)(X) Allison Miller, another ex lead researcher of the RAMCOA sig, is currently unlicensed, and to this day continues to claim that recent criminal investigations have given the results that satanic cults are a widespread global issue. She, like Braun has linked satanic abuse as an active initiate of DID. One of her main controversies is that she claimed her clients delusions of alien abductions were actually memories “implanted by a satanic cult to make her seem crazy” One of Miller’s main supporters was Neil Brick, who claims he was programmed by the illuminati to be a serial killing spy, these claims were looked into by the FBI and disproven. (X)(X) Tara Tulley, another ISSTD member, had her license revoked for performing exorcisms and other demon revocations on patients with DID, believing that their DID was caused by satanic rituals. (X) Eileen Aveni, an ISSTD SRA specialist, was found guilty on multiple public health code violations, including neglecting her patients, with one documented case of allowing her patient to be sex trafficked, she was put on probation but ultimately returned to her work. (X) George Greaves, a past president of the ISSTD had his medical liscenses revoked for engaging in sexual acts with patients, specifically while they were under therapeutic hypnosis, as well as other ethical violations. (X)
Micheal Sulter, former ISSTD chairman in 2023, continued to parrot disproven conspiracy theories such as the McMartin Preschool tunnels, which was disproven decades ago. (conference documentation on multiple accounts) Sulter has also claimed that there is a psyop or similar group run by enemies and ex ISSTD board members. (No link unfortunately, the social media posts were deleted and the only one with them available is the Grey Faction) Even currently, the ISSTD has not moved away from conspiratorial concepts in their presentations and meetings, they continue to mention that occult holidays such as Halloween or Christmas inspire ritual abuse from Satanic Cults. (X)
The ISSTD has annual conferences, each being either recorded or documented, several of these being notably controversial. In 1988 they aimed to verify cannibalistic satanic cults who participate in human, specifically child, sacrifices, this was investigated and then debunked by the FBI. In 1989 they included talks of real life Manchurian Candidates, a discredited conspiracy theory based on the novel of the same name. All information available was scrutinized by many in the field, especially in the forensic legality of clinical hypnosis considering the heavy use of it by ISSTD practitioners. (X)(X) From 1990 to 1998 ISSTD conference guest panelists had been accused of being Satanists if they portrayed any skepticism towards the connection between DID and SRA; this is documented in several instances. (No link, An Interview with Frank Putnam, Part II." ISSTD News)(X)
The RAMCOA sig was forced to be rebranded in 2020 to the OEA sig due to “stricter rules for the provision of Continuing Education (CE) and Continuing Medical Education (CME) credits” meaning without the rebrand they would have lost the ability to certify their practitioners. This is because their sponsors said they would refuse to approve presentations discussing SRA mind control conspiracies. They have stated that they are trying to overturn this by finding a new sponsor or becoming self certified so that they could continue such presentations. (X. Yes, this has the Grey Factions name on it however it’s from The Satanic Temple simply discussing a letter that was released by the Grey Faction.) The reason they founded the RAMCOA sig in 2008 was to allegedly separate their SRA research and DID research, however the two still remained linked together as shown by Brauns continued connection.
Additions This document is not even going to touch on the antisemitism of the SRA and blood libel conspiracies that go into the term because there would be way too much to talk about.
Many people say things like “It's a good foundation tied to bad people!” which is more so the opposite. The ISSTD is structured and based off of malignant theories that alienated survivors and fictionalized their situations by embellishing it as part of their conspiratorial agenda. It originated from the twisted belief of a satanic cult underground, and that these cannibalistic sacrificers were giving/creating DID. They are the reason that the FMSF exists, it is due to the fact that so many of their practitioners were found guilty of taking advantage of patients to push their conspiracies. The main reason people claim that DID is purely iatrogenic is because the ISSTD used clinical hypnosis as well as other methods like the fear and vulnerability of victims to create crazy explanations and fake memories. The ISSTD is not a good foundation, there are some genuine and well meaning people there, but time and time again they continue to support SRA conspiracies and spread satanic panic. Many people, purposefully or not, continue to share Braun’s dog whistles: if you don’t remember your cult trauma, it’s because it’s hidden from you, if you don’t want to talk about it then it’s a program keeping you from talking, if you have a violent alter it’s because your cult leader introjected a demon in to you, don’t ever research RAMCOA on your own without a professional, because if you do then you might trigger suicide programming- This is satanic panic.
I think this quote puts it really nicely, “The ISSTD created the term for the idea of RAMCOA. They did not create it to describe your trauma. They created it to describe conspiracy theories.” It was not made for survivors, it was not even based on the experience of survivors, it was manufactured by people who do not fundamentally understand what organized abuse is, and it is solely based on SRA and MKultra conspiracies. Your abuse is real, your experience is real, but RAMCOA is not. When you identify and label yourself with this term, you are contributing to the stigmatization survivors face in the medical field; there is a reason the term RAMCOA is only recognized by the ISSTD, you are contributing to the conspiracy theories ISSTD members continue to spout. All of the ISSTD conspiracy theories have been disproven, and time after time yet they continue to link survivors and DID to them, when this happens people see survivors and DID as also fictitious, especially those who label themselves as RAMCOA. If they say A and B are connected, when A is proven wrong what are people going to think of B? (in this example A being SRA, and B being people having DID.)
No, this is not a conspiracy, I made sure to not include anything in relation to the Grey Faction because so many people on Tumblr say that the ‘real’ conspiracists are the Grey faction because they ‘made all of these claims up’ which really isn’t true and I wanted to show that no, these claims are not just something they made up- they are well documented, most of the documentation being internally done by the ISSTD themselves.
There are better terms to use now, and more fitting frameworks that are actually created to help people like us. We are not a commodity, we are not fictitious, and our disorders are not something to be taken advantage of as proof of conspiracy. No one should be preyed upon by this as many people have been.
Some other recognized terms include:
Organized abuse
Conditioning
Institutional abuse
Cult abuse/trauma/survivor
Trafficking
Religious/spiritual abuse
Psychological abuse
Emotional abuse
Physical abuse
Sexual abuse
Sadistic abuse
Conditioned abuse
A very small other note is that programming is an intense form of conditioning that takes advantage of dissociative barriers induced by trauma. It is not satanic mind control that turns you into a child soldier- you are not a villain, you are not a killer, you are not a demon or angry spirit, you were a kid who did what you needed to in order to survive. Conditioning is not mind control, one day you are going to be free of it : )
I, the writer of this, am a cult survivor and victim of heavy conditioning. You aren't alone, and I promise you that there are people out there who genuinely care and want to help us, the ISSTD and specifically their RAMCOA now OEA sig is just not one of them, to them our abuse is just a spectacle that can be used to support a defunct theory.
Some more sources can be found below as I can’t remember if I included them earlier:
https://openaccess.city.ac.uk/id/eprint/11871/
https://archive.org/details/satanicpaniccrea00vict
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3574493/The-people-who-believe-that-Satanists-might-eat-your-baby.html
https://archive.org/details/EvidenceAgainstDr.ColinA.RossVol.1
The last small thing I’ll add in case someone brings it up is that yes, some of the ISSTDs research has been helpful, in the exact same way that some of the Grey Factions research as been helpful- it doesn’t erase the bad things they have done and it definitely doesn’t make up for them. If the ISSTD completely bans their use of conspiracies as well as cracks down on clinicians taking advantage of their patients I would be overjoyed, but the fact of the matter is that many who have abused their authority have not been punished for it, or received a slap on the wrist and continue to work there.
Thank you for taking the time to read this. You are loved, and cared about, and you deserve to heal.
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System as a term
So I've been doing a ton of research on the origin of the term system in relation to DID specifically. The earliest instance I can find use of the term is 1992.
I've found many names for systems. There's dissociative system, alter system, personality system, and just the term system used in a multitude of papers I've found and read, many of which date to the 90s and early 2000s.
"From the beginning, we noticed many spontaneously referring to the constellation of entities "inside" the client's mind as a "system". This word appeared in conversations with colleagues, in the literature, in courses and workshops, and was occasionally used by clients referring to themselves."..."If the term system aptly describes the workings of the minds of client with many personalities, perhaps systems theory is a useful way to think about it." (Percy, 1995)
Of course there's also "internal family systems" which is a completely different thing and a form of therapy I won't pretend to understand, however the system in that sense and a system in DID are two very different things.
The term system for DID wasn't created by the DID community, it was created by the psychiatric field. I couldn't find the first use of the term but it's as old as the early 90s, perhaps even older.
Before the term system was used for DID there was another definition, which is still applicable and you'll see in many contexts. It is not unique to the psychiatric field.
The APA defines general systems theory as "an interdisciplinary conceptual framework focusing on the wholeness, pattern, relationship, hierarchical order, integration, and organization of phenomena. It was designed to move beyond the reductionistic and mechanistic tradition in science (see reductionism) and integrate the fragmented approaches and different classes of phenomena studied by contemporary science into an organized whole. In this framework, an entity or phenomenon should be viewed holistically as a set of elements interacting with one another (i.e., as a system), and the goal of general systems theory is to identify and understand the principles applicable to all systems. The impact of each element in a system depends on the role played by other elements in the system, and order arises from interaction among these elements. Also called systems theory. [formulated by Austrian biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy (1901–1972)]"
If you would like to read Bertalaffy's work here's the link to "General Systems Theory" (1968) Chapter Nine discusses "system theory and psychiatry."
System is not a new term. Using the term isn't a sign of faking. It's a real medical term that has been adapted by the community as a self label, which wasn't a recent adaptation either.
I'm not going to police who uses the term system, quite frankly I don't care enough, but when using terms it's important to know the origin of them.
As I read some more articles I may add to this post.
(shoutout to my friend who let me use his dropbox to link sources)
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