shipcestuous-two

[shipcestuous-two]

(This technically belongs on both blogs since I'm discussing multiple ships but the main ship goes here)

Thanks so much to anon who recommended My Secret Brother / Unstoppable Siblings! I wanted to second the rec and also elaborate about why I enjoyed it so much. Sorry for the length~! Also, beware of big-time spoilers

It's such a funny premise--a girl wants to make her new crush jealous, so she fake dates her brother--but the writing is incredibly good. the characters have a lot of unexpected depths and complexities, and I couldn't help but love many of them by the end (also, entirely unrelated but there's a sapphic romance subplot I didn't expect but really enjoyed! It’s a pretty queer-friendly comic—you can honestly read most of the mains as disaster bisexuals, lmao)

Side note: there are 211 chapters (plus a few “what if” scenarios, making the total count more like 217). It was hard at first to find a place to read that had all the chapters instead of cutting off early, but it’s worth reading to the end! Again, it’s so well-written

first, the main ship y'all will be interested in: Hanmi, the MC, and Junhyuk, her brother. They're biologically cousins, but he's her adopted brother and has lived with them since they were young. Since they recently had to transfer schools for Plot Reasons, nobody at their new school knew they were siblings (especially with their different last names) so the fake dating was believed by everyone

Hanmi and Junhyuk are so great because they're really believable as "normal siblings" at first. meaning they love to butt heads and take the piss out of each other endlessly, as platonic siblings do. but at the end of the day, they're more ride-or-die than they'd like to admit. personality-wise they're pretty similar, which is very fun. they both try to handle things by themselves to protect others/each other, they’re both stubborn and feisty and deep down, they have good hearts they try to hide

and as the story goes on, you get this creeping sense of awareness that there's something in your peripheral vision, that there's something between them that you can't quite see but you can feel it's there. That feeling gets stronger and stronger the farther you get in the story, until it's undeniable. their love interests, past and present, are jealous of the two of them together for a reason even after they “break up” after a whole year of fake dating

There's an inevitable feeling about them, where even if they try to prioritize other people, they keep drifting back to each other despite trying to be "normal." Hanmi spends most of the story trying to win the heart of her crush (and I do genuinely like them too, just not as much as the siblings), but when it happens, it feels like something's missing--both to the readers, bc of how it's framed, and to her now-boyfriend Gun who can't stop thinking about if she misses her ""ex"".

Junhyuk eventually moves out to deal with the “threat to their family” (meaning himself, who has loved her since he was 10). he’s putting distance between him and Hanmi and dating someone else just to protect the family that means so much to him, who took him in after his bio parents basically abandoned him. beneath his façade, he cares so much, but he’s making them both suffer to “save” their relationship and it’s heartbreaking. But the distance seems to make them more aware of their feelings, not less

after some tense stuff happens involving their family, Junhyuk runs into Hanmi while he’s still emotional and kisses her. He asks her why she didn’t push him away, telling her to tell him she’s disgusted and doesn’t like him, and she says he’ll leave again if she did that. They kiss again and then, with conflicted emotions, part ways. Junhyuk wants to protect his family so badly, so he doesn’t want it to happen again. If they’re family, at least they can stay together, but he worries that, if they ever broke up, it would ruin everything. (it’s trauma from his parents’ divorce tbh)

Lots of plot stuff happens that I won’t spoil, but basically it’s the two of them both trying to handle things independently so the other won’t get hurt. and it becomes clear that Hanmi knew about Junhyuk’s feelings for her for a while and was just pretending not to. she notes it wasn’t because she was scared of him—he has never once made her feel afraid—but she’s scared of being apart from him because she “feels complete when she’s with him.”

when she tells this to her boyfriend, after he learns she and Junhyuk are siblings and asks her how she feels about her brother, Gun says that why their relationship felt off was because he was never Hanmi’s first priority. Just like Hanmi was never his first priority (I’ll get to that in the next section). and they break up for good

the story ends with Hanmi’s masterful gambit to resolve the main conflict, but she decides to study abroad for a while. Junhyuk feels like it’s his fault for not keeping his feelings hidden. secretly Hanmi decided this for his sake—she “can only see the big picture from a distance.” there can only be a change in their dynamic if they look at things from an objective POV

but she comes to visit him and explain herself, and he asks if he can kiss her (obviously she says yes). But Junhyuk is convinced she’s just “allowing” it from him because he wants it, instead of wanting it herself. what she wants is for him to explicitly confess to her, and ask her not to go. He tries not to but chases her down last minute, wanting to confess—but then he thinks about their loved ones, their family and friends, and can’t bring himself to be selfish. Even so, she hugs him and tells him it’s okay, they’ll be fine

and then she leaves for abroad. Then the two don’t really keep in contact for 2 years, between their respective college busyness. It’s sad, but it is important that they are able to grow into their adult selves independently, so when they meet again they can have a fresh start. When he sees her again, he impulsively runs up to her and declares “I love you!” and they embrace each other lovingly

we don’t get Hanmi’s answer here, and usually that would bother me, but I don’t think we need it. I think it’s a given. Everything in the story has showed us how inevitable they are, how they’re magnets who can’t help but click together. Even if things will be hard for them, it’s obvious that they’re… well, to title drop, “unstoppable siblings.” so I like how the story leaves off: she doesn’t need to answer him with words. she embraces him immediately, even after so much time and distance, because they love each other and they always will

plus, there’s the final “bonus chapter,” chapter 217! Technically the bonus chapters aren’t automatically canon, but this one shows they started dating after that. on their date, they get “mistaken” for siblings more than once. the date is sorta awkward, and Hanmi is mad everyone keeps clocking them as siblings. Junhyuk says they don’t need to change how they act toward each other from how they used to, since they know each other so well. Cut to the two making out in an alley so Hanmi can prove “they haven’t changed that much” is a lie. (then Junhyuk makes a parody Game of Thrones/Lannister reference, lol)

and then Junhyuk starts thinking how he wants to marry her. He wants to get a house together, get a dog, go on trips together, grow old together, do all the corny couple things. Right then, Hanmi blurts out that they should do everything that other couples get to do—and promptly suggests they go to a love hotel. They’re so in sync and so cute, and I’m glad we got this extra bit of ending

Anyway, on to our second ship: Hanmi’s crush, Gun, and his younger (bio) brother Jua. They also have a really fascinating dynamic. Jua has had health problems since he was very young, and Gun will often drop everything to see him. Jua is loud about how much he hates this. He used to really admire Gun but their parents always prioritized Gun, and he feels like Gun didn’t help him because he wanted to but because he felt obligated. (pre-story, Jua was hospitalized because some bullies wanted to get back at Gun and beat Jua up)

so now Jua has a strong resentment for him, and he doesn’t even really hide it. Gun still loves him and wants to take care of him, despite this. Almost always, Gun will choose his brother over everything and anything else (even Hanmi, usually). even if taking care of Jua is something he should do as a brother, that doesn’t mean Gun doesn’t genuinely care.

while Hanmi and Junhyuk are really similar, Gun and Jua are really different. Despite people thinking he’s delicate because of his health, in the present day, Jua is a little shit. he’s snarky and manipulative and a jerk (affectionate). Gun is a precious cinnamon roll who’s sweet and oblivious and a dork (but secretly self-loathing). Gun was the golden child and Jua was the least favorite. but they are mutually obsessed

they’re a strong parallel with Hanmi and Junhyuk. (side note, it’s really interesting that Hanmi has the same last name, Lee, as Gun and Jua. The character used is different, but it’s still… Interesting.) One of the antagonists straight up says “Just like Hanmi’s top priority is Junhyuk, Gun’s priority was always his little brother.”

Jua calls Gun a pervert multiple times for treating Jua as his top priority. (Gun will blatantly admit it without any shame, too, like ofc his brother would be his most important person) Jua’s always trying to interfere in his love life. They have a few suggestive moments. over the story, Jua softens toward Gun, even if it’s subtle and he doesn’t want to admit it. Even if he resents Gun, he obviously cares about him more than he shows, because Jua is completely obsessed with him. Just, in a tsundere kind of way. at first I was thinking, “there’s no way we’re getting a second canon sibcest ship, right??”

then, Jua takes Gun up to the secluded rooftop and, after reconfirming that he’s more important to Gun than Hanmi is, Jua suddenly kisses him. Gun shoves him accidentally in shock, and Jua falls down the stairs. He’s badly hurt, and Gun visits him every day while he’s unconscious. Even when he spends time with Hanmi, he’s always preoccupied with Jua. Gun decides to go to nursing school, to dedicate his life to Jua.

when Jua’s awake again, he goes back to being snarky acting like Gun “tried to kill him” on purpose, but Gun is still so earnestly happy he’s awake. Jua threatens to not go through with his surgery so it won’t alleviate Gun’s guilt, so Gun will be “stuck” with him until Jua dies. Gun gets on his knees and says he’ll do anything Jua wants to keep him from doing that to himself. so Jua tells him to cut Hanmi out of his life. Gun tries to, but Hanmi knows it’s Jua’s doing from a mile away and confronts him saying she knows Jua doesn’t really hate his brother, and Jua breaks down, wanting Gun to leave him alone to rot if he’s only here out of guilt

Gun confesses that, even if he was well-liked, people only liked him for shallow reasons. Jua was the only person who saw him, Gun was otherwise alone too. his brother was his “only comfort.” And he says that even if their relationship now is unhealthy and they’re too codependent, Gun doesn’t care and “still wants to be with him” (phrasing, bro). they decide to get through this together. So Jua agrees to get his surgery

and Gun soon decides to break up with Hanmi. he doesn’t like how deeply attached he got to her. He parallels it to his relationship with Jua, but says that while he and Jua can’t be separated so he’ll live with his unhealthy obsession there but, he doesn’t want such an unhealthy relationship with Hanmi. meanwhile she simply realizes she doesn’t have time for him bc of all the plot and Junhyuk stuff. (again, I love them both as characters so it’s sad. but it’s both better for them and for our ships; and they can still have a sweet friendship in the future).

again, like I said, these two sibling pairs are parallels. Gun thinks of himself and Jua and then Hanmi and Junhyuk and thinks “if what we’re feeling is love or guilt, it doesn’t matter anymore. our feelings have gotten so deep that there’s no point in differentiating them.” He thinks maybe this is why he and Hanmi were drawn to each other in the first place

There is a funny moment near the end when Jua hits on one of Gun/Hanmi’s friends in front of Gun by saying she looks kind and naïve, which is “kinda my type.” Gun gets really red-faced and confused that that’s his type, and it’s not clear if he’s confused that his brother is hitting on somebody or confused that Jua’s description is Gun to a T. Jua just stares blankly at him. like he obviously just did it to get a rise out of Gun. (and soon after, Gun and Junhyuk have one of their bromance moments, and Jua gets a chill in another room like he has magic brother senses, lol)

And then, so Gun will be able to get into a good nursing school, Jua gets a job right after graduating and puts off college. The brothers plan to travel abroad together, and Junhyuk thinks to himself that Gun will never marry because he’ll be living his life with Jua—but Gun seems very happy with this ending.

again, it’s a little open-ended: Gun never confronted Jua onscreen about why he kissed him… but whether he did offscreen or whether he never did, it’s obvious that Gun doesn’t mind. Jua always was and still is his most important person, and they clearly plan to be life partners of some kind. Whether they’re romantically together and it’s just not stated or not, they’re together forever and it’s cute

finally, there’s Junhyuk’s mom (Seohyun) and Hanmi’s mom (Yunha). We don’t see much of them, but they also have a complex dynamic, with Seohyun having both feelings of admiration and jealous resentment for Yunha. It’s mentioned that Seohyun’s ex had feelings for her sister first. Then, when Junhyuk was a kid, his dad had an affair and Seohyun retaliated by telling him their son wasn’t his. It’s unclear if it’s true

(but also: we don’t know who Hanmi’s father is. We do know Junhyuk’s dad was interested in Hanmi’s mom. I don’t think Yunha would willingly have an affair with her sister’s husband… but I’m saying there isn’t zero evidence for Hanmi and Junhyuk having the same dad. Just because I read too much into stuff)

 in the “bonus chapters” after the story wrapped, we get an AU(?) of Junhyuk’s mom (Seohyun) and Hanmi’s mom (Yunha) if they were in the position of the MCs, with Yunha being a cousin adopted as a sister instead of bio sister like they seem to be in canon. (I think it’s AU, because the author stated these bonus chapters weren’t canon). They were very cute as kids, with Yunha as the affectionate little sister to Seohyun’s stoicism

and then in the present, Hanmi tells her aunt “sometimes you seem to look at my mom in an admiring way,” making her do a spit take that reminds a lot of her son. even as adults, we see Seohyun sharing a bed with Yunha when she stays over that night. I’m just saying I ship them and the author might too, to include this

anyway, sorry for talking so long! I really enjoyed this series and I wanted to give you lots of information for people who might enjoy it too. it’s rare that we get canon brosis and canon brothers in the same work that are both so front and center, but Hanmi/Junhyuk and Gun/Jua are great (and the fact that there’s a bonus sisters ship in the background with H/J’s moms)

My Secret Brother anon past 2: I was thinking more on the ending and this person on reddit summed up why it works really well. after discussing why Junhyuk didn't confess earlier (emphasis mine): "He [worries] that there is a high possibility that he wasn't in love with Hanmi, but with the idea of being in love with her. Because after being abandoned by the people that we are taught, that they unconditionally love us, the purest form of love, the parents, perhaps he wanted a proof that he can be loved to such an extend that this love can overcome everything and anything. He sees all that, accepts that he confused his needs with his ideal fantasy. And because he was abandoned, he perhaps felt that this the only love that he deserves as a person... He never asks Hanmi how she feels about him before he shows what he felt all these years. He never talks. He just does the forbidden move straight away. He kisses her. He assumes that she should be disgusted, he challenges her to throw him away and not give him hope, because he wanted someone to prove him that he is not hated while he wanted to be hated... He says what Hanmi feels, he says how she should feel and he is more troubled by the fact that she is not reacting. That she is.... indifferent. Because if she were to push him away he'd be glad. That would prove that he is indeed unwanted as a person as he felt that he was by his own parents. He wants to be hurt, because he cannot bear his mother's.... apathy. And if she wear to reply back in a positive manner? We never actually see him, ever thinking of that..... While we visually see his inner, darker thoughts in one chapter, leaning over Hanmi while trying to kiss her, saying how he is a pervert and disgusting, that she could never understand a pervert like him, we never actually see any fantasy of the "what if she loves him the same way too" scenario... The only time we see him think in a positive light is in an optimistic, childish way, when he starts running towards the airport. ...because he has nothing to lose. Because she is leaving. And it is the only time that he thinks that perhaps they could have a happily ever after like if this is a movie. And he does this because... indeed, he has nothing else to lose, and not because he truly believes that this will have a movie ending. [and realizing that is why he can't confess] ...Which brings us back to the moment [post time skip] he grabbed her hand and said what he couldn't say then. That he loves her. Because after she left, he realized that he could live without her. Now, they did not have an enemy to fight against. Now what tied them was not an "Us vs the world". There was no need to protect her. There was no need to self-sabotage himself. And this is why what he said was genuine. With no external enemies he came to realize that he loved Hanmi for the person that she is, not because its romanticized filter enhanced by the impossible or because it was a taboo" basically, why the ending is really good is because they had to prove to each other that they could still be functioning people without each other. they had to face their fear of being separated, to prove to themselves that their feelings were real instead of just because of messy circumstances. so when they finally reunite, it's not because they need to but because they want to (sorry for another essay, lol)

Wow, there's so much. The author definitely seems like one of us! Thank you so much for the detailed write-up!!!

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hiiii have you guys seen this? https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoricalCapsule/comments/1kyq2g5/sophia_loren_and_her_younger_sister_anna_maria/ 🥺 cute!

We're Spanish Italian. We embrace kiss each other on the mouth.

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I’m not sure if this counts as extended family or not. But if memory serves. At the end of a little night music Fredrik Egerman’s 18-20 year old wife hooks up with his college aged son.

I've never seen A Little Night Music, but it's based on Smiles of a Summer Night, the Bergman film, which is a favorite of mine. The canon stepmother/stepson incest is one of my favorite canon examples of that kind, although it's worth noting that Fredrik and Anne haven't been married for very long. At most a year and a half, but I think it's less than that.

I think it's fun because the son is so angsty about it.

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This is SO ridiculously silly that I’m aaaalmost embarrassed……..I’ve been watching Perfect Strangers, and I ship Larry and Balki so much it hurts 😭 They’re such distant cousins that Larry describes them in the first episode as just “related by rumor”, but like 👉👈 still fuels the kink for me jnugcytctfcufc 👉👈

No need to be embarrassed around here!

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ShipCestFan’s IRL Observations – Ep. 9

Hey, Shipcestuous. ShipCestFan here, back with another episode of “ShipCestFan’s IRL Observations”. In my last update, I told about Mandy – an ex girlfriend in her early 30s who had fond memories of “interesting” road-trips with her truck-driver dad. In this episode, I want to stick with Mandy because there was a sibling aspect to more of her stories that also made me raise my cestship eyebrow.

So Mandy also had an older brother who was in a relationship with a trans woman. I never got to meet the brother and gf in 4 months or so of dating Mandy. But from what Mandy told, the trans girlfriend had transitioned almost fully but had retained her male anatomy (apologies if I am not using correct terms). Mandy had lots of SFW photos on her phone of her brother and his girlfriend, and they were both stunningly beautiful, like Mandy. But what I found interesting was that, again (like with her dad stories), based on the “funny” stories behind the pictures that Mandy told me, it seemed like she and her brother and his girlfriend had a veerrry “easy” ability to joke explicitly about sex.

For example, Mandy told me that when her brother’s girlfriend was going through gender affirming hormone therapy and breast augmentation, she jokingly asked her boyfriend how big she should go? Mandy told me that her brother’s answer to his girlfriend was “huge like my sister’s tits.” Mmmkay. Mandy was chuckling when she told me this. And she told me this with absolutely no disgust or revulsion, which I found titillating. I also found it interesting that the girlfriend had no issues telling Mandy of her brother’s suggestion.

But what really struck me as odd about Mandy, her brother and his girlfriend were the explicit NSFW photos that Mandy shared of herself. As I had mentioned in my previous tale about Mandy, she loved bikinis and showing off in them. But her love of sexy outfits did not end there. Mandy loved anything sexy, and since we were now “dating”, she showed/gave me many NSFW photos of her not only in intimate wear, but posing in sexy positions, including a stripper’s pole that seemed to reside inside a bedroom. Mmmkay.

What also made me raise my eyebrow was that all of these photos were taken by someone else while Mandy posed. I remember asking her about the pole, assuming it was in her own bedroom and the photos were perhaps taken by her husband? Nope. Mandy’s response was simply that the pole was in her brother’s girlfriend’s bedroom, and Mandy commented no further. (cue sound of rewind tape)  Wait..wha…?

My cestship brain went into overdrive! Who took the photos then? Was it Mandy’s brother’s girlfriend? Was it her brother?, Were all three together for the photos? Mandy had already shown me that the three of them could talk about sex, so maybe their comfort level extended beyond talk? Maybe they were comfortable being nude around each other? Maybe they were comfortable with more?

Now, I do eventually get the courage to press people further on their answers, especially if it’s hinting to cestships. But my approach has always been to take my time and not rush things. Unfortunately, Mandy and I ended things before I could press her on, both, her father and her brother. But the memory of Mandy, her “sweet daddy” as she called him, and her brother left an indelible mark on my cestship brain.

Here’s my take on Mandy…

I know some of my observations sound crazy. But in close to 40 years as a secret cestshipper, I’ve witnessed and experienced a lot that simply is too sus’ to not have something more behind it. Personally, I think there are a lot more consensual, adult cestships happening in our society across the globe, not just in the US. And while I think many of these individuals keep their cestship secrets heavily guarded for obvious reasons, I also think they are dying to find and meet kindred spirits. So I personally think many of these folks will “hint” to or feel others out in the hopes of being able to share their experience. I think that was the case with Mandy. I think she desperately wanted to admit to her cestships and was feeling me out with her “jokes” and hints to see if I would fit in with the 3 of them?

As I mentioned in my last IRL submission about Mandy and her father, I concluded that Mandy was around 20 years old when she and her father moved willingly into a consensual cestship during those long road-trips together, just the two of them. I also believe this allowed Mandy to realize that consensual, perhaps healthy, cestships among adults can exist and that society maybe had it wrong. And so I think her relationship with her brother and his girlfriend over the years evolved into another cestship for Mandy after her dad passed away.

But lets not forget the girlfriend. I have two friends, and a close acquaintance who are trans. All are wonderful, amazing people. But they are, all, also veerrry open-minded (like me) where nearly nothing is off-limits in the bedroom as long as it’s among consenting adults. And I think it’s possible consensual cestships are more easily accepted by that community.

With that belief in mind, I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to conclude that Mandy and her brother – with the help of their open-minded trans girlfriend encouraging them – moved all 3 of them into a consenting, adult throuple cestship. And it was easy for Mandy having come off of one with her father, too. Maybe that’s my cestship brain in overdrive, but I have found over the decades that I am more right than wrong in my perceptions and suspicions. Whether Mandy was in one or more cestships or whether my fertile imagination ran wild with her tales, I’ll still have fond memories of Mandy, her father and her brother.

Until next time…

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Did you know that Turkish actors who played main roles in Çalıkuşu (first cousin romance) got together a couple of years after they had met (at the filming of this series) and now married with kids? Just thought it was a fun fact.

That is a fun fact!

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Okay so i didn't know where else to put this and need refuge, sooo... a duo of my ocs are actually biologically related and in a relationship, (it's a big bro x little bro thing) but since they dont really look at similar (one of them's albino), they lie and say they're not biologically related and instead just classmates. For context, they were seperated at birth and adopted by different families but finally reunified (instead of being touch and go) in boarding school >_<

Interesting situation, Anon!

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IT IS NOW PUBLIC.

Everyone!! Go!!! Play the kink side story - nay, play 'Shameless Love' as you now know its title is!!!

Enjoy!! (and thanks again to the beta readers/testers!)

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Pharaonic history has many cases of incest.

I need to read more history of the incestuous marriages of the pharaohs, because I mostly just know about Cleopatra and Tut.

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I’m getting suspicious of Eric from pretty much it

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David Copperfield has a few cousin relationships, even if they don't end up together--and one pseudo-incest relationship that does

first, cousins Ham and Emily both lose their parents and are adopted by their uncle, which also makes them adoptive siblings. The two are engaged when they get older, and Ham is in love with her. Emily has more complicated feelings, and ends up getting seduced by another man right before their wedding and running off with him, sadly. But after that, Ham is--platonically--cared for by his aunt Clara until his death

then, there's a pair of cousins, Jack and Annie, who were childhood sweethearts before Annie ended up marrying a doctor. Jack continues to carry a torch for her for a while and assumes they'll end up together someday, even if Annie and her husband have a strong relationship. (Still, the doctor is notably older than Annie, so maybe Jack is counting on being her second husband? lol)

one of the villainous figures in the novel--actually, the man who seduced Emily--is James Steerforth. He was raised by his mother with the help of his cousin Rosa. James lashes out at Rosa as a child (even leading to her lip being scarred) but at some point, she falls in love with him and wants to marry him. Considering she helped raise him, it's kind of a grooming situation--or it would've been if he'd ever reciprocated--but it's still yet another example of cousincest in the book

this one isn't canon, but David is taken in by his aunt Betsey, who lives with a "distant connection" (distant relative) called Mr. Dick. She acts as a caregiver for him, despite her not being fond of men generally. the nature of their relationship isn't really clarified

finally, this one is more fauxcest than anything, but David himself spends a while living with the Wickfield family, a man and his daughter Agnes. the kids are the same age and become best friends, and David views her as a sister. Agnes has feelings for him for a long time, but keeps them hidden because he doesn't feel the same way. She even encourages him as he pursues his first wife, hiding her heartbreak. but after his first wife dies, David eventually realizes he's fallen in love with Agnes--the person he once viewed as a sister--and they get married. so there's one happy ending for a ship mentioned here, at least

Wow, that's a lot of familial connections going on! I had no idea. Thank you so much for laying this all out.

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Every time in normal circles where incest is brought up, someone says it’s bad because it could result in children with genetic diseases. By that logic, is it only impermissible because of the potential genetic risk to children? What if the couple doesn’t or can’t have children? What if neither of the parents are carriers for genetic disorders? Children with genetic disorders are born to non-related parents every day. It’s a sad fact of life. We don’t look at every child with a hereditary condition and immediately assume they’re a product of incest. We also don’t forbid people with genetic disorders from having children. Imagine if everyone with a genetic disorder, and everyone who carries genes for a recessive or dominant disorder, was sterilized to prevent passing those genes onto their children. That would be a human rights scandal, certainly. I’m just irritated by the double standard.

It's actually great when people make that argument because it's so easy to argue against it.

So you only object to incest because the children could have genetic disorders?

-What if I told you the risk of that is only increased by ___%?

-Oh, so then you don't think that anyone with a genetic disorder should have children?

-What if they can't have kids? or What if they choose not to have kids? What if they adopt?

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Do you ever have theories on whether famous, possibly incestuous historical couples really were incestuous or not?

Like Anne and George Boleyn are considered as not having been in an incestuous relationship by the vast majority of historians and general history buffs, and the mainstream opinion seems to be that all charges were fabricated and that the two were just close siblings. From what little historical evidence we have, I guess I agree. The strongest is probably a prayer book he gifted her with a cute, but not overtly romantic dedication. That said, maybe evidence was lost to time or destoyed by her daughter queen Elizabeth who held Anne in high regard.

With Lucretia and Cesare Borgia historical opinion seems split/slightly more on the incest believing side. Honestly there isn't that much evidence either in my opinion, but there are definetely many sources from that time that allege it, which is fun.

One of the relationships with the strongest historical and critical support seem to be Marguerite and Julien de Ravalet, who unlike the ones mentioned above are known to history only because of their alleged incest. In my opinion there are a lot if things that speak for it (the fact that multiple people that didn't really have a motive to smear them alleged incest and that their well meaning family tried to separate them, the fact that she got pregnant while on the run with him and that the story she made up to explain it seemed fabricated, the fact that their father seemed so religiously guilty after the whole thing that he gave away all his wealth to the peasentry etc., however there are also some things that make me doubt it, like how the "police" (don't know what they were called back then) found them sleeping in seperate inns. This one if real, is probably the most romantic and almost cheesy (if you can call a relationship ending in beheading that) love story between siblings written down in history.

The alleged incest that seems most supported by evidence to me, is that between Lord Byron and his half sister Augusta Leigh. He literally wrote a play about a tragic hero in love with his sister (Manfred) and in one letter pretty clearly states that Augustas baby is probably his.

Would love to know your speculations on these and any other couples you like to think about. Or maybe you just accept the incest speculation on all of them which is very understandable lol.

I definitely wonder about all these, but haven't had the time/patience/etc. to research. I wouldn't give an "official opinion" either way without feeling like I had done ALL the research.

I don't have strong feelings about whether Cesare and Lucrezia really were incestuous or not. The fiction that has been given to us is enough for me.

There are plenty of siblings that we can be reasonably certain were together and in love, like Artemisia and Mausolus, or Kamehameha III and Nahi'ena'ena, etc. Lord Byron and Augusta seems basically factual.

I don't know about Marguerite and Julien, I know almost nothing about their real story, but that's a lot of smoke for no fire.

Personally, I've always been super into George/Anne, so I keep on believing no matter what the historians say. They can say, "It probably wasn't true", but they can't know for sure. Anne and George were both found guilty of incest. It wasn't a fair trial so that's not convincing. But I find them being charged with something as wild as incest pretty interesting, given the fact that they were both also charged with other things that would have been enough to seal their fates... Plus their father was as politically involved as George, but George has to go down with Anne, and Thomas Boleyn doesn't? Makes me go hmm. But maybe I just love the story.

I don't think there were any rumors about Octavian/Octavia, but if I ever write my historical fiction novel about them, I'll start some. The TV show Rome went there first, but I'll go there bigger. They were very close. She lived in his household until her death. Her son was his heir. Plus Octavia was married to her first husband for ten years and had no kids, and then had three kids in a very small amount of time. Sounds like an affair to me.

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DC’S STARGIRL (2020-2022) | 3x13

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my dad, in a previously normal conversation, accidentally said "ancestors" as "INcesters" and I had to bite my tongue so hard. but yeah, we now have a work for our forefathers in tangled family trees, a la Flowers in the Attic or Game of Thrones. "Our incesters," lmao

I love that it genuinely came out by accident in casual conversation.

It's truly hilarious how similar the two words are.

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history aesthetics

ANKHESENAMUN

Ankhesenamun was a queen of the Eighteenth Dynasty of Egypt. Her youth is well documented in the ancient reliefs and paintings of the reign of her parents. She was born in a time when Egypt was in the midst of an unprecedented religious revolution (c. 1348 BC). Her father had abandoned the old deities of Egypt in favor of the Aten, a minor aspect of the sun-god, characterised as the sun’s disc. She is believed to have been married first to her own father, as was the custom. After her father’s death, she became the wife of Tutankhamun, her half brother. The couple had two stillborn daughters. Some time in the ninth year of his reign, at about the age of eighteen, Tutankhamun died suddenly, leaving Ankhesenamun alone without an heir at about age twenty-one. A document, found in the ancient Hittite capital of Hattusa, is thought by some to have been written by her. It reads: “My husband has died and I have no son…. I am afraid.” She may have married Tutankhamun’s successor, Ay, possibly her maternal grandfather, but she is believed to have died shortly thereafter, as she disappears from history, and her burial site remains unknown. 

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Hamefura | Ep 3 | Keith and Katarina