#<- i think they appear creating the world in a cutscene in OoT

[mobgabriel]

not just talk, the golden godesses were put in time out in EoW and you have to save them like the lore in this game is insane and no one is talking about it

Surprised that I've hardly seen anyone talk about the fact that in EoW the Golden Goddesses actually talk to you because that kind of blew my mind

[howtodrawyourdragon]

There is a whole other story beneath Twilight Princess’ main plot- [1/3]

And it explains why the children of Ordon were taken in the raid.

They were taken because King Bulblin was searching for Link.

[Part Two]

[Part Three]

Okay, but hear me out for a second here, I come with a theory that I think really makes sense and it can possibly answer a few question in the plot of the game.

Why were the children of Ordon taken? (You Are Here)

Why was Link, after his first transformation, still taken as well?

Why was he taken to Hyrule Castle of all places?

And more.

Now, before I begin, which are some of the games we tend to associate with Twilight princess chronologically? Ocarina of Time. Which is the other game that also serves as a sequel to Ocarina of Time? Wind Waker.

I bring these two games up because there is a notable difference between these three incarnations of Link that I want to bring up before I continue.

OoT: Link receives the Triforce of Courage due to Ganondorf’s attempt at making a wish, causing the Triforce to break into three.

WW: Link earns the Triforce of Courage after finding all eight broken pieces found scattered in the ocean.

TP: Link is born with the Triforce of Courage.

Remember this detail.

(Video for reference from NintenU on YouTube)

Why were the children of Ordon taken?

First of all, what do we know of their abduction?

(Timestamp for video: 11:00)

We know that they were taken right before the Light Spirit Ordona was to lose their light as we know from the same cutscene that Faron was already cloaked in darkness. We also know that only the children were taken and nobody older than Ilia.

When Link is concerned we can only make assumptions whether he was meant to be taken, too. As, while he is knocked out cold by a bulblin, we see King Bulblin enter the spring as well and then not notice that Link is even there. He just blows his horns and hauls ass after a portal opens up. So whether Link was actually meant to be taken, too, is something that we can’t quite answer from the scene presented to us.

(Timestamp for the lines: 44:33)

When Link reunites with Colin, Beth, Malo, and Talo after light is returned to the Eldin Province, Colin and Malo tell Link that the bulblins had left them for dead somewhere far enough away from home for Renado to find them. The children aren’t injured either and Twilight Princess isn’t exactly above showing us injuries or even violence towards children.

We’ve seen Rusl covered in blood and bandages. We’ve seen him limp his way through Ordon when he hears Wolf Link in the distance and then later can be found sleeping deliriously on the sofa of his home.

And them being kids doesn’t spare them either as we see young Ralis (very likely) near death when we hurry him to Kakariko Village. His mother, the late-queen Rutela, states “I feel it. His presence grows fainter to me over time.” This most likely means that Ralis is losing his life.

(video for reference from Psuedo Twili, timestamp: 2:04)

And if you remember the cutscene in which King Bulblin charged through Kakariko Village, Colin wasn’t exactly left unscathed as he was run over and knocked out cold for the entire duration of the fight between King Bulblin and Link and then later found resting in bed with Beth and Luda looking after him.

The bulblins aren’t above hurting children, yet, instead of harming them any further, they choose to simply abandon the children instead. If they were harmed any more than they already have been, the game would have shown us.

It is also interesting to note from the Queen Rutela cutscene, that the Zora’s were raided, too, but their child, Prince Ralis, was not taken. This is a striking contrast, compared to the raid on the human village of Ordon, where the children were taken. Though, admittedly, this is possibly because they were raided by the Shadow Beasts and not the bulblins.

So what do we know?

The children of Ordon were taken, nobody older than Ilia (or presumably, older than Link)

They were brought all the way to the Eldin province, which is far far away from home.

Abandoned, left for dead. This makes their abduction strange and out of place, without reason.

Not physically harmed, from what we can see.

With these facts summed up, we have to wonder why the bulblins would steal people from their homes if they are just going to abandon them in the middle of nowhere anyway. What is the point? Why go through all that trouble of kidnapping them? (Besides moving the plot forwards and giving Link reason to set out, of course) And why do I claim that the Triforce of Courage has something to do with this?

Let’s begin with why I would bring up the fact that TP Link was born with his piece of the Triforce.

(Timestamp: 1:42:20)

Well, we’ve seen the cutscene with the Sages. We’ve seen that they attempted to execute Ganondorf themselves, believing themselves capable of bringing justice to the King of Thieves. But that it was a foolish attempt as Ganondorf, in what they call a divine prank, possesses the Triforce of Power and uses it to revive himself. Whether this was a conscious decision or not, we don’t know and for this theory it doesn’t really matter too much.

Now, the reason why this Ganondorf, which is canon to be OoT’s Ganondorf, has the Triforce is because OoT Link was sent back in time with his piece. We saw in the very last cutscene of OoT that the mark of the Triforce is on his hand, meaning that he traveled back with it still in his possession.

With TP Link stated to be his descendant by blood more than once in-game, it is natural that the Triforce would be passed down through Time’s bloodline until it eventually reached Twilight. What happens with the Triforce after Twilight is a mystery.

(I’m not familiar with Four Swords Adventure’s story, so I don’t know if the Triforce really makes an appearance in that game)

With Courage already gone, it caused Wisdom and Power to break apart and go to their respective holders as well. Wisdom, of course, to Zelda. Power to Ganondorf. (Link being sent back in time with Courage, may also explain why this particular piece is in literal pieces in WW. Or maybe it was explained why you had to find the individual pieces and I just don’t remember.)

We know that it is canon now that the Triforce tends to break apart under certain circumstances. I.e when evil touches the Triforce or when a piece is already missing, as was the case in TP, WW and presumably at the end of OoT. We also know that the former fact is a known fact, at least for those who know the Triforce and are familiar with its lore.

Knowing this, would it really be farfetched for Ganondorf, who already knew exactly where and how to find the Triforce in OoT, to look at the back of his hand, see one of the pieces of the Triforce there, and conclude that there are two others with the other pieces? I don’t think so, with how much Ganondorf already knew of the Triforce.

For one of the pieces, the most obvious choice would be someone of the Hyrulean royal family. Hyrule is where people know the entrance to the Sacred Realm to be at, tales say that is where the three Golden Goddesses made their exit after creating their world, leaving the Triforce at that exit that is now the Sacred Realm. It is even the reason why Ganondorf is so set on taking Hyrule, of all places, because it is The land of the Triforce.

But with Wisdom (presumably) already found, where would the third missing piece go?

Well, what are the chances Ganondorf knew OoT Link was in possession of one? That OoT Link, upon attempting to convince Hyrule’s King of Ganondorf’s treachery, was forced to show Courage as proof? If the King doesn’t even believe his own daughter, what are the chance he would ever believe Link without the Triforce?

Maybe this is how Ganondorf found out the third bearer was Link? A ten-year-old boy in possession of one of the three golden triangles isn’t exactly something that would stay under the radar of someone with a deep desire for said Triforce.

But before Ganondorf even realizes he has Power, he is captured (at a much later age than he is shown in OoT, btw), executed, and sent to the Twilight Realm when Power revives its holder.

Years pass, so many that the former Gerudo King is completely forgotten by everyone except for the five remaining Sages who banished him as a last resort.

In the meantime, Ganondorf, believing himself Hyrule’s rightful king because “the Triforce chose him”, figures out there are two others with Triforce pieces, remembers that this one boy was one of them. And then Zant comes along and Ganondorf sees a way to return.

Presumably, the first place Zant takes in Ganondorf’s name is Hyrule. It leads to Zelda surrendering instead of choosing to sacrifice the lives of her people in a battle with an enemy she clearly recognizes as powerful. Keeping Zelda hostage in her own castle, it is possible GanonZant find out she is in possession of Wisdom. The very reason she is still alive and kept well is most likely because of the Triforce. (but this is only a guess)

If Zelda can use hers to sense which magic Wolf Link has been cursed by after the Lakebed Temple, maybe Zantdorf can sense she has Wisdom?

And then their question remains; Where is Courage?

What if Ganondorf still remembers that young boy even know? Knows that it is possible for even a Hylian of low beginnings to have it as well? What if King Bulblin and his bulblins were approached by Zant, under Ganondorf’s instruction, and told to pillage each of Hyrule’s villages in search of the final one bearing the mark of the Triforce? Right before each of the Light Spirits had their light stolen?

King Bulblin, in their last confrontation, tells Link that they “follow the strongest side”. That this is “all they have ever known”. That makes them sound more like a mercenary type of group, people following those they consider “the strongest” unless the other side can prove himself more powerful, which Link does.

What if this is the reason why Ordon’s children were taken for seemingly random reasons? Because King Bulblin was actually "hired” and told to search Hyrule for Courage? For Link? Maybe he was even specifically told to look for children? Much like how, in Wind Waker, young girls with pointy ears were hunted down and kidnapped by the Helmaroc King?

It is interesting to remember that this very similar plotline started Wind Waker’s main game. Link started his journey to save his younger sister, who was kidnapped in Ganondorf’s search for Zelda.

It would, in my opinion, explain why the kids were taken and then just randomly left for dead without really physically harming them, in spite of the game clearly not being above hurting children and showing injury. Or it would explain why that horse battle scene after Colin’s second abduction went the way it did.

But I’ll come to that particular part in Part Three.

[Continued on Part Two]

[ganymedesclock]

So I saw a tag on my last post:

#i dont think we were supposed to think to hard about some of this

(via @mamamittens​ here,)

and I think in a way, that’s correct- the Zelda games are actively written in a way that discourages curiosity about Ganondorf. The “final fight” of the game is rarely an environment of Ganon’s making or in his favor. We are overwhelmingly kept away from Ganon himself- there’s no game where we can just talk to him, and I don’t think there’s been a game yet where we can choose dialogue options in a cutscene with Ganon.

We’re very rarely allowed to talk to Ganon’s subordinates. Those relationships are cast heavily in the dark. We don’t get to see Ganon grieving any of the people and monsters we carve through on our path to get to him.

We’re told things about Ganon in a way that is intended to be dismissive- we’re told he’s Cunning and a Schemer so we assume that he’s working towards some sinister agenda any time we’re looking at him or not. We’re told he’s underhanded so we can accept that events that seem completely unrelated are all his doing. We’re told he hates, and that he covets power, because that’s inherently how he is. We’re told he’s an usurper and an unworthy king so he is set across from the Hyrulean royal family, whose right to rule is never questioned by anyone we’re “supposed” to listen to.

We’re not supposed to think about Ganon. We’re not supposed to wonder about Ganon. We’re not supposed to listen to Ganon.

And this is unnerving, when people don’t tell us things about Ganon. 

In Wind Waker, there is a small detail where Ganon is only stated as “Ganon” by Daphnes. The time we hear him called “Ganondorf” is when he introduces himself to Link. That’s one of the first things he says to Link in this game- calmly and indifferently giving us this tiny, but fairly notable, detail of his history that Daphnes never told us.

And Daphnes omits a lot of Ganon in that game. The word “Gerudo” is never mentioned. We only know that Ganon didn’t come from Hyrule because again, he himself tells Link about his country and the disparity in climate- that Hyrule had something his people didn’t, and at least in that timeline, seemingly, the Gerudo were struggling. (One can argue in OoT they don’t appear to be struggling, but, why would Ganon, a king among his own people, keenly know and be able to describe the experience of poverty and living close to death if he never experienced it? He isn’t pulling this out in anticipation of pity; it’s a moment’s introspection before he braces himself to fight Link and Tetra for the triforce, with no suggestion that they could back down or negotiate)

And even just in a sense of immediate relevance of the game- Daphnes doesn’t tell us the Master Sword was used to seal Ganon. He doesn’t tell us that there’s consequences to drawing it whether or not it still had the sages’ power. In fact, Daphnes casually justifies withholding information- when he reveals his true identity, he outright tells Link that as long as Link was able to kill Ganon, Daphnes saw no reason to reveal Hyrule or his own identity.

Considering Daphnes is literally sending Link on a politically motivated hit on another ruler, this is really bad. It’s bad that literally all of the context we have on Hyrule’s downfall is either directly given by Ganon- who at no point is shown to lie to further the obvious agenda he’d have of Not Wanting Link To Kill Him- or prompted by Ganon’s actions and words raising questions that Daphnes admits he needs to answer.

In Twilight Princess, Ganon talks to Link less, but he’s still conspicuously wearing a crown. He is still overtly not Hylian- we can still imagine that he is from the Gerudo, which is very concerning, when the only inhabited structure in the Gerudo Desert in TP is a massive, extremely haunted prison full of torture equipment that was presided over by servants of the Hyrule royal family. Whether or not we were supposed to think deeply about it, having Ganon, overtly crowned, when there were no other Gerudo, and the sages claiming they merely executed “a bandit” who was blessed with the gods’ power basically by accident- literally only thinking about it as far as “but Ganon didn’t just sprout out of the desert at random, where did he come from? In other games, he’s from a people called the Gerudo who lives in the desert, but it doesn’t look like anyone lives in the Gerudo Desert except the Bulblins, and Ganon’s obviously not a bulblin” tells us that the nicest thing that possibly happened is famine or disaster wiped out the Gerudo, destroyed their city, and left Ganon the sole survivor.

It’s not a good look if you can’t admit the person you’re executing is royalty.

But we’re Not Supposed To Think About Ganon.

And in another sense, we are- we’re supposed to hate him. We’re supposed to think about the bad things that happen and think they’re his fault. We’re supposed to think about the bad he could hypothetically do, and allegedly is doing, somewhere we can’t see him, or where we can see the results but not anything that explains why Ganon did this or how.

We’re supposed to think about Ganon as an adversary, a beast, a monster, a tyrant.

We are not supposed to think about Ganon as a person who was ever a child, who ever had a homeland. We are not supposed to think about how Ganon frequently empowers or takes the side of people who feel like they were kicked around by the established order.

We’re supposed to think about Ganon as avaricious, but never Ganon who wants things. We’re supposed to think about Ganon as wrathful, but never someone who knew lack or suffering or punishment. We’re supposed to think of Ganon as vindictive, but never someone who has any reason to feel he was wronged. We’re supposed to think about Ganon who hates Hyrule, but never Ganon who was ever given a reason to hate Hyrule, or resent it, or be envious about it.

And more than these factors being only implied or not implied or only there if you ‘really think hard about it’- they are frequently implied or explicitly spelled out in canon.

Wind Waker Ganon tells Link that he was a person who lived close to death in a barren wasteland of a country. He says this was his experience, and motivated his desire for Hyrule. It’s threaded into the way he phrases his wish. He states this at a point when he has nothing to gain, is not telling Link to stop fighting him or that he’s justified, but merely, with the benefit of introspection, contemplating on how his ambition began. Daphnes is right there, perfectly able to hear him, and does not contest or argue this. 

There is nothing here that suggests Ganon is a liar- especially when, in Wind Waker, Ganon is a more reliable source of exposition than Daphnes is. He doesn’t lie in any part of the game- if anything, he tells us several important things before Daphnes does (that Tetra is carrying a piece of the triforce, that the Master Sword was used to seal him, that it has lost its power, that there’s a connection between the weakening of the sword and the “pathetic fools who made it”)

Which I think takes things a step further than merely shoddy lore- because, some of this stuff, like Ganon no intuitive motive for planting Kalle Demos where he ostensibly did, and no obvious means for creating, taming, or controlling this creature, genuinely is just shoddy lore- they made a forest dungeon for the players’ enjoyment and gave it a forest boss and then contrived a reason to be there and then put it into the boss rush because everybody loves boss rushes, right? Why is there a monster there? Pin it on Ganon.

But things like literally having people lie about Ganon, when Ganon conversely doesn’t lie to Link and half the time actively explains more than the mentor figure has at that point in a way that only partially feels like monologuing- it comes back to what I said. Ganon in Wind Waker suggests that he’s not the only one spurned by the gods, but so are Link and Zelda- and, once again...

...Nothing in the series really calls him a liar about it.

But we’re not supposed to think about Ganon in the way that we wonder about him at all. We’re especially not supposed to think that there might be any way to deal with him besides killing him. In Twilight Princess, we can guess he was potentially given a trial, because of the “Arbiter” in “Arbiter’s Grounds”, but in a context where the Gerudo were decimated, and it was the direct servants of the royal family trying him, in an isolated environment that clearly condones doing all kinds of horrible things to people, far, far away from any civilians or witnesses... how fair a trial could that possibly be? 

And what does it mean about Link’s morality in that game, if he defeats Ganon by tearing open that execution wound, following the steps of the sages, and the only real rationale is he started off trying to rescue the people of Ordon- who we’re never given a good reason why they were kidnapped and then abandoned, or something that ties it back to Ganon’s orders- and tries to defend Midna, restoring her to the throne (and basically ignoring Zant’s accusations that Midna’s family abused him, because we never meet said family, or hear anything about them from anyone else) and Zelda (who’s nearly a non-entity in Twilight Princess until the final fight).

Link is presented as an ostensible neutral party because he’s not a soldier of Hyrule, but in practice, he’s kept very ignorant about the situation he’s conscripted into, and he’s given all of his cues from Hyrulean perspectives and especially those of their royal family. And we, interacting with the world through him, are similarly kept in the dark.

So- yeah, so much more of Ganon makes sense if you just don’t think about it. This was clearly the stance we were supposed to take.

But...

On the other hand...

Are we really comfortable, through the character of Link, of playing the role of an unthinking executioner, who sharpens the sword because we were told, who cuts down someone we barely know anything about, who doesn’t give us that many reasons to oppose him not filtered through things we’re told by other people? Who virtually never directly attacks until we personally chase him down?

Even if Hyrule has only the best intentions, why write a story where we just have to take a bunch of confusing and downright concerning information at face value and kill a guy because destiny says so?

If this isn’t supposed to look like we’re the unwitting servants of evil, why are we supposed to be unwitting servants at all? After all, you don’t usually hear the term “unwitting servant of justice” because the general idea is that a just cause is one that doesn’t need to lie to people.

[sureenink]

Zelda Question

I mentioned it in my Star Wars question just a moment ago, but I thought I’d expound on it here. Simply put... why is Ocarina of Time so amazing? Like, I don’t understand what makes it so good in people’s eyes? I think a lot is nostalgia, but I don’t know. Maybe I had a vastly different experience since my copy of OoT bugged out on me? (More on that bit later)

Like, okay, so people say “Ocarina of Time’s story is amazing”. Like... what... story? I’m sorry, I’m just confused by that. Like, I’ve played OoT several times. I can look at the story of the game and be like “Okay, so... kid in forest leaves forest, travels to castle, obtains gems, becomes an adult, saves sages, rescues princess from evil guy”. That’s... that’s the whole story. I’m not even being sarcastic or trying to make it sound bad. That’s literally the longest and best summary I can come up with about the game without mentioning every detail? Like, I could write a two paragraph summary about “boy then travels to temple A, then temple B, etc.” but like... that’d just be extra information.

Like, the characters are... well... flat. Malon appears twice in the game, just twice. She doesn’t show ANY affection for Link, at all, and this is coming from someone who confuses “Hello” with “She must love me”. Like, she literally shows no interest in him. She calls him “fairy boy” and teaches him a song, and gives him an egg, and you rescue her, except you don’t rescue her, you just save her horse.

And then Zelda... err... Shiek... err... Zelda? Err... Well, see, I’m confused here, too. Shiek and Zelda are the same people, but everyone is always like “OMG ZELDA” when... she has... two scenes... SHIEK is the one who shows up all the time (well, to teach you a song). And even then, Shiek has no real personality. Shiek’s just like “Yeah, so, here’s some random statement about this place, and here’s a song, I guess. It’ll teleport you here” then leaves. Yeah, Shiek is there in the village and gets beat up by Bongo Bongo... like... it’s not even a fight... Bongo Bongo just picks her up, throws her around, then attacks you. Sure, he was invisible and all, but like? She’s somehow a “badass”, but we never see this badassery?

I feel like a lot of what people like about the game is stuff never actually displayed in the game itself. “Shiek is a badass” SHIEK NEVER DOES ANYTHING. “Malon, Saria, Zelda, they all love Link” Saria is the ONLY person shown having any affection for Link, and she’s all “Your older now, we can’t be together” which is heartbreaking, but like... I never saw any affection from Malon or Zelda... Well, okay, Ruto got engaged to you... She was probably the only character that had much personality... And that was “I’m a snotty person that you’ll spend the whole dungeon yelling at, then I’ll appear as your fiancee seven years later for one scene”.

Heck, Nabooru has more character growth, and she has literally ONE SCENE in the entire game. Rather, you only meet her on one occassion, the Spirit Temple, where she’s like “Your a kid, but you’re hot, and I’ll totally fuck you” then she becomes a sage is like “I totally should have fucked you”. But seriously... even she was pretty bland.

One thing I do get is that OoT was the first one to cement the whole “history of Hyrule” thing... Oh... no... that’s not right either, cause that was ALttP that did that... So nevermind that, OoT doesn’t even have that going for it. In fact, the cutscenes for the creation of the world and the Triforce are so dull and bland that I really wish you could skip them, cause they’re like... 5 minute long cutscenes... TWO of which are literally just the Triforce spinning in place while Zelda talks.

I just... I don’t understand why it’s so adored and so loved. The camera controls suck ASS. Like, Z-targeting was awesome, but do you know how many times I had trouble lining the camera up so I could see what I wanted? “Let’s tilt the controller a little so I can turn just a little... NO! YOU TURNED TOO MUCH AND ALL I DID WAS NUDGE THE STICK!” Like, OMG... I really just could not figure out the camera controls really at all. And don’t even get me started on the infamous “unaimable bow”. Like, the hookshot had a red dot so you could aim it straight, but good freaking luck figuring out where the slingshot and bow were going to fire at.

And the waiting... so much god damn waiting... “Watch this cutscene of you opening a chest that takes 30 seconds EVERY TIME YOU OPEN ANY CHEST, EVEN THE DUNGEON MAP AND COMPASS WHICH YOU FIND EVERY DUNGEON!” Like what the hell? There’s no way around it, either. You just click the button and wait for the chest to slowly open, shimmer, Link hops into it, then hops out, then “DA DA DA DA!” you get your item along with a wall of text.

AND DON’T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THAT GOD FUCKING DAMNED OWL AND HIS “DO YOU WANT TO HEAR THIS AGAIN?” BULLSHIT!

Anyway, someone, please, explain to me what is so great about this game. I really want to know. I’ve spent years... YEARS trying to figure out why OoT is the Number 1 video game of all time, even almost 20 years after the games release. Like, holy frick. Twilight Princess did so much things better than OoT. Twilight Princess was much more beautiful than OoT. WIND WAKER was probably one of the most hated games for how it looked, and it looked 100 times better than OoT. Like... OoT looks TERRIBLE in comparison to Wind Waker (WWHD... looks terrible in comparison to WW... -shudders- the bloom effect... so bright... makes it hard to see the game at all...) Hell, Skyward Sword played better then OoT and looked better, and it was... well... kinda bad? I’d probably rate it at the bottom of my Top 5 Zeldas at best?

So, why is OoT so “good”? Don’t get me wrong. OoT is a good game. I do enjoy it, and it was one of the first Zelda games I ever played but... like... almost any Zelda game plays better and looks better than Ocarina of Time... so why is it so adored?

Here’s my OoT experience story for you, maybe this is why I don’t like it as much as everyone does? So, I booted up OoT for the first time, yeah? Load up a game and create a new file. I should point out that it was a NEW FILE (you’ll get why in a moment). I see the cutscene with Navi and the Deku Tree, get woke up, hop out of bed, equip my gear (wait, what? Yeah, I had all of the gear), then walk out of the Kokiri Forest (cause I’m lost and not sure where to go) and get the Saria cutscene where I get the Ocarina.

I then walk to Castle Town and get the “Ganondorf chases Zelda” cutscene then get the Ocarina of Time. I go to the Temple of Time, play the Ocarina, get the Master Sword. I then get the cutscene that follows with you and Rauru... I then get the “Zelda is Shiek” cutscene, followed immediately by the “You just entered the Temple of Time in the future” cutscene where I meet Shiek. Now confused, I walk out, find Ganon’s Tower, get the sage bridge cutscene. Enter the castle, solve the puzzles (remember, I had all the equipment? Also all the items), fight Ganon, game is over.

That was my experience playing OoT the first time. That was my experience with OoT the first 3 times (even starting another new file did the same thing). Maybe it’s because of that I never was able to enjoy the game in its “pure form” and thus end up liking it? I mean... if that’s true... then I think that pretty much proves that nostalgia is the only reason people enjoy OoT as much as they do... But I’m not here to point fingers. I just want to know... What makes OoT so great? Why is OoT the best Zelda game ever? Why is it the best game ever period? I just... I just don’t see it...