#^^ as someone who doesn’t even ship hayffie like that!!

[hungergameshyperfixation]

Effie Trinket lesbian or aroace headcanon is so important to me.

[piniatafullofblood]

controversial opinion but I don’t think lenore’s entrance affects hayffie canonly at all. In fact I think it actually makes me like hayffie more.

because even if haymitch will love lenore dove for the rest of his life, which he will, she’s gone, and he’s still alive. He can love her and love someone else, and that can be okay. Because love for someone who’s dead is so, so different from loving someone who’s living. Haymitch is an adult, he’s allowed to contain a multitude of feelings and have complex emotions about multiple people. effie isn’t trying to take Lenore Dove’s place, they have their own, new, different thing, and that has meaning, too. The way that Haymitch loves Effie doesn’t detract from how much he loves Lenore, and vise versa.

Peoples relationships can be different and equally important. (human relationships usually don’t fit in the strict boxes we make for them, but that’s a different post.) Haymitch doesn’t love either Effie or Lenore more, and saying that he can only love one like loving a person is a thing that can be scaled on a pyramid is kinda awful. Haymitch loves Lenore, but she’s dead, not to mention the fact that Effie herself is an entirely different person than Lenore was.

not being in active grief doesn’t mean he doesn’t remember her, or doesn’t still miss her, or loves her less then he loves Effie. It just means he found something for him to love in life, too, and I personally think lenore herself would love that. She wouldn’t have wanted Haymitch to stay yearning about her forever; the whole point of ending the games was so there could be a better future. I think it works better if they both exist, because both ships are unique and beautiful in their own way.

and even if it didn’t complement hayffie really well, you’re allowed to ship whatever you like without caring about wether or not it’s canon.

human relationships are nebulous and nonlinear (the same way everything about humans are) and you can have completely unique feelings about two different people. it isn’t like you have an inventory slot for people you love and then once there’s something in it it’s full, nuance exists

[msshadowqueen]

Hard agree with what you’re saying. It’s so frustrating trying to talk to people critically about sotr. They just always claim that you’re upset because you’ve “fallen for the propaganda” which I take issue with because there is not a chance in hell that Collins wrote Haymitch in the og trilogy with sotr planned out or in mind.

And they claim that we’re just upset because it disrupts our headcanons and ships etc. As someone who never really had headcanons or shipped Haymitch with anyone it’s so frustrating hearing that parroted when you’re trying to have actual discussion. Like they refuse to listen to any discussions about narrative or lackluster writing or the fact that a lot of things don’t make sense and a lot of characters are written poorly in the name of “propaganda” and fans being upset about their ships. They act like Collins is a genius that can do no wrong.

How have we suddenly “fallen for the propaganda” when we had no such issues with TBOSAS??? It’s really really annoying that just because it’s a prolific author like Suzanne Collins they think she’s incapable of poor writing. And is that not ironic? They claim we “fell for the propaganda” yet they refuse to see the faults in the writing because “it’s Suzanne Collins.” Idolatry is what it is, which is ironic because isn’t that exactly what Collins is trying to warn us against? People who blindly believe propaganda when it comes out of the mouth of someone they know and like/trust??? Hello???? As a fan of Rick Riordan books I am all too familiar with this situation.

I’m going to be perfectly honest: I didn’t care about Haymitch enough as a character to have headcanons about him; I wasn’t even a Hayffie shipper or anything. I read the book because I’m a big fan of TBOSAS and SOTR was the newest book in the series; plus I thought SC would have something important to say. The message is fine but the execution is poor, and I hate to say it but it really does feel like a cash grab. The lore here is inconsistent with what we know from the OG trilogy AND the Ballad prequel which have been out for years, and they’re acting like we “fell for the propaganda;” no we didn’t. The actual story was changed, Collins didn’t have SOTR planned out when she wrote the previous books and it’s painfully obvious.

Collins was doing a lot more telling than showing, which is a far cry from TBOSAS, which is subtle and masterfully written. I was skeptical from the moment the book was announced as Haymitch first person POV because I wasn’t sure what new things he would have to offer that we haven’t already seen from Coriolanus and Katniss’s povs. My skepticisms were proven true: this book could’ve been greatly enhanced by a Plutarch POV; a well-off Capitol citizen but also a rebel, also feeling trapped. Even multiple POVs would’ve been good. A Lenore Dove POV would’ve been helpful so that I could actually get to know her character and like her, and see the POV of the districts when their tribute has gone to the games, you know? I was wondering how SC would convince me of Haydove when LD was going to be gone throughout the games and again I was right: she utterly failed to develop her character, trying to turn her into a watered down Lucy Gray and ultimately having her suffocate the narrative. SC did a great job developing LG in spite of not having a POV, but LG also had far more time on screen. Hence why a LD pov would’ve helped us better understand her.

I don’t think Haymitch’s girlfriend should’ve been Covey at all. The covey should’ve been long gone by now to be consistent with the chronological timeline, but for some fucking reason SC wanted to parallel Haydove with Snowbaird. We already have the Everlark-Snowbaird parallel; it was completely unnecessary. Additionally, she made Katniss’s dad a “distant cousin” of the Covey which doesn’t make sense since Covey isn’t even originally from 12 and has a small family; but she wanted to give Katniss this uber special status, which reduces the whole point of the OG that Katniss was just an ordinary girl. And why the hell does Haymitch know about Lucy Gray? The copies of the 10th Hunger Games were canonically destroyed and it’s really dumb that Snow was able to get his hands on them so easily just to taunt Haymitch. And why wouldn’t Haymitch expose the Snowbaird relationship when Finnick exposed his sex trafficking??? Also Snow’s characterization is way too close to TBOSAS Coryo when at this point it should be closer to THG Coryo.

Also LD really kills Haymitch’s characterization. We’re expected to believe that this manic pixie dead girl love he had at 16 was what drove him to drink and he was totally fine with his entire family dying and Maysilee and constantly mentoring tributes to their deaths. Ok ok. And where is his brain? I was expecting a cunning, charming rascal. I’m not saying he has to be as smart as THG Haymitch, but the brains have to come from somewhere, you know? And that rebellion plot really should’ve been Maysilee’s. Maysilee was more of a true rebel than Haymitch was at that point, kicking Drusilla’s ass and winning over the tributes. And she wanted to die with pride and honor. She is the far more sensible choice for a rebel side plot than Haymitch, who to the rebels ought to look like a hothead even if we know he isn’t. Again how this book could’ve benefitted from multiple POVs: SC could’ve fit in a rebel plot and described it from Maysilee’s POV.

I know that was long but those are just a few of my problems with the latest book. I can’t wait for the hype to die down so that people can finally see the book for what it is. And when that happens I’ll be here saying I hated it all along. Thanks anon!

[theballadofthesunandthestars]

Hey!

So I agree, any ship antis I see I usually agree are bs. Hayffie is included in that; anti-hayffies can be super weird and awful, and I don’t stand by that. At all. I am not going to challenge ships, and would much rather post about ones I love and ignore the ones I hate. That’s a great fandom practice overall!

And I agree, you can still ship Hayffie despite the epilogue! Canon is a suggestion; go nuts!

What I do want to challenge, in both this post and some of the replies, is the notion that having no New Romantic Partner is the same as being “forever alone” or is “the worst ending possible.”

I’m aromantic (specifically aroace lesbian if you want to get technical, as I do feel some sexual attraction to non-men); I’ve gotten so many people who openly have said to me how much they pity me, or how unfulfilling my life will be because I don’t want or need a romantic partner. And this isn’t anyone in the fandom’s fault, but I am all too familiar with the phrase “forever alone.” That is what people tell me; that my friends will ditch me for romantic partners eventually, and I’ll be so sad that I didn’t look for one when I was younger.

I don’t think any Hayffie shippers are deliberately trying to be anti-aromanticism. But the implication that because Haymitch did not explicitly end up with someone at the end of SOTR means that he’s “forever alone” is not a true statement. He has Katniss and Peeta, both of whom work with him and each other to heal from their respective traumas. Yet this connection he has with them is seen as “lesser than” a romantic relationship; that hurts. It really hurts to hear that.

Again, you can ship Hayffie. You can rewrite canon and have them be together. Love is complex; you can fall in love with multiple people, grieve your first love while being with another. That’s all true. And I know a lot of Hayffie shippers who write wonderful fics and make wonderful art, and I love them. I’m not asking for Hayffie to stop.

What I am asking is to think for a moment when you claim that Haymitch is “forever alone” just because he’s not in a romantic relationship at the end of SOTR. And to think when you claim that people who see the appeal of the ending are trying to “doom Haymitch into eternal misery.”

Again, I am aromantic. And it’s so powerful to see people have happy endings without romantic relationships. To be allowed to find healing and community without getting married, and most of all, it’s so powerful and important to see that a happy endings can be just with friends that you love. Because love between friends is every bit as wonderful and powerful as romantic love. One is not above the other; they’re just different. I remember how powerful it was that even though Katniss and Peeta are in a romantic relationship, they don’t abandon Haymitch, and they keep reaching out to him, keep checking in. And then they all work together on a memorial book and heal. That was so powerful because maybe that meant my friends won’t abandon me when they get married. That I won’t be alone.

Does Hayffie have anything to do with my aromanticism? Eh. Not particularly. But it’s disheartening to casually scroll through the HG tag or fandom and be hit with a post that parrots some anti-aromantic ideas, even when I know it’s completely unintentional.

Go nuts Hayffie shippers! Like I said, I love the art and fanfic. Please don’t think I’m telling you not to ship it. You writing fanfic about Hayffie in the epilogue doesn’t take away from my experience with the ending, so don’t stop!

The weirdest things about Hayffie antis is that they seem to delight in the concept of Haymitch being forever alone.

[ellanainthetardis]

Hi :) I’m know you’ve written fics where both happen but out of curiosity, in movie!verse (which admittedly I mostly ignore hahah) do you hc effie would move to 12 when Peeta moves back? Would it have been as difficult for her to live in the capitol if she was known to have been the escort that sided with the rebellion rather than the one that everyone thought was the enemy? What do you think would be her prompt to realise she’d rather be with haymitch when it’s not her PTSD like in book!verse?

MMM that’s a very interesting question I rarely touch movie!verse post MJ. I’m not entirely a fan of a “stay sober” Haymitch (at least not until a few years down the line when he might make the decision to cut out himself, bc it wasn’t his choice to get sober in MJ and I feel like he wouldn’t stick to it but I digress). As for Effie, it’s hard to tell. I love EB to death and I love her portrayal of Effie but the way they used Effie in MJ... I can’t really get behind it. She’s acting like her most flamboyant spoiled brat self all MJ 1&2 and 13 never puts her back in her place. I’d have liked to see a transposition of the scenes with the prep teams, for instance, or something that would confront her to reality, instead I got customized uniform book!13 would never have allowed and random comic relief. 

Anyway. Back to to topic. Two options, I think. Either we consider purely movie!canon and we decides they started hooking up in 13, so when he says don’t be a stranger maybe he means that but she doesn’t take it to mean “please move in ily” bc they don’t have the “history” so to speak. In which case, I will lean more toward something where she stays in the city and take a job with Plutarch, basically filling out Fluvia’s role, by becoming his Chief of Staff or something. I do think she has the skills to go into politics, maybe not as a face but as a PR or yeah, chief of staff, or something like that. Higher up but behind the throne, you see? 

Since she joined the rebellion after the Quell and was quite publicly the Mockingjay’s escort during the war, I think most rebels would be satisfied with that and maybe conclude she’s been a part of the rebellion for longer than anyone realized and she wouldn’t deny it so... She would be okay with them, maybe even well considered... I do think she would be in hotter waters with the Capitols but since Capitols invented the game, they would pretend and be very hypocretical bc they want to survive and, while she wouldn’t believe a word or a smile and watch for the knife in her back, she would go along with the charade. 

I think she could make a successful career out of that. A career she enjoys even, because her brain would be put to use for once. And since she wouldn’t be as jadded by the war, I don’t see her ambition being put in check. I guess she would be in relationship with Haymitch but it would be long distance. Holidays, the occasional week-end in 12 or the city... 

Maybe it works out well, at first, because Haymitch isn’t used to having someone romatincally around and that’s a good transition but after a while, I do think he would get in a frame of mind where he wants something more stable and it might put tensions on their relationship a few years down the line...

I’m a romantic and I love them so I want to think they would make it but I’m not sure how much a fling that started in MJ with the movie!characterisation would really work out. Either she quits and move to 12 (but she’s so ambitious and if her career is really working well, it seems ooc) or Haymitch moves to the city (which is NOT happening) or they find some sort of in-between solution where she takes a political role as a delegate in 12 or something... 

Second, option (my default when I play in movie!verse) we consider a hybrid of (what we  think is) book!canon and movie!canon for Effie. We consider Effie  has a lot of character development pre 74th and is fully aware of the states by the time Katniss pulls out the poisonned berries and isn’t as clueless during the Tour and etc as she pretends to be on screen. So when she arrives in 13 she’s DEEPLY unhappy about having been “kidnapped” (probably bc if Haymitch had asked, she would simply have said yes), really upset by the rebels failing to rescue Peeta and mostly worried because she’s not stupid enough not to see she’s not welcome. She’s basically durmped into the enemy’s den and Haymitch isn’t even around to protect her (bc he’s in withdrawals). I like to consider book!13 when I write that verse and pretend movie!13 doesn’t exist, so she would also be “a fish out of water” - as was promised when MJ1 came out. I also like to have her wear the real uniform for that reason, I think it’s important for someone like her who always means to stand out to be forced into the ranks, because it would play on her mind and that’s interesting. 

Anyway, book!hayffie do seem to have more history regardless of if you think they were having an affair before 74th or not. They have all those “of one mind” thing and conspiracy in elevators... They do seem to have a more... real equal working relationship, meanwhile in the movie, it seems Haymitch is doing all the work.... So if we take that into account, I think, in that hybrid idea, Effie would stick with Haymitch and remain his escort (and Kat’s obviously) in 13 so she’s more involved despite the hostility she triggers. Her being more involved means she gets to see more of the horrors happening in Command. She would also, I think, be tired by all the years of dead kids. That’s something that would sit heavily on her and I’m not sure book!Effie shrugs it off as easily as movie!Effie does... 

What I like with movie!Effie though, is that she develops a real nice relationship with Katniss. That, we do lack in the books. And I really like that because I think it might come to play a role post MJ. 

Of course, when we consider post MJ we have to decide what to do there too. I don’t like the movie!MJ ending XD I don’t like that Katniss isn’t hurt/addicted and I don’t like that they ship her off right after the murder. I like the whole “suicidal/withdrawal/trial” thing better. There is SO MUCH happening beyond her room during those weeks (months?) and that’s what’s interesting because I think that’s when hayffie’s fate is decided. (either they implode in book!verse - for a little while - or they seal the fact they want to be together for hybrid movie!verse)

Anyway, if we consider the hybrid version of Effie (movie!verse but with book background and the idea that the affair didn’t in fact begin in 13) I think it’s possible she just might be exhausted and disgusted by all the politics and worried about the children enough that she would just come to 12 with Peeta. To test the water. Also she knows her feelings, she’s mostly confident Haymitch does love her, she probably simply isn’t sure he’s actually ready to have her around him 24/24 in his house. 

I mean if she and Haymitch had been dancing around the casual/not so casual thing for years, she might want to take a shot at being steady, committted while he’s miraculously willing. I can see it as a natural progress of their relationship assuming they took a big step in 13 (either by openly sharing a compartment even if it’s not official like I like to hc or even just by not systematically denying when someone assumes they’re together or even - which I think is plausible - by having an actual convo where she puts it on the table that she wants more and he actually awkwardly reassures her that he does have feelings - even if the words aren’t said yet...). 

Now if they just started hooking up in 13, I don’t think she would show up with Peeta because there wouldn’t be all the developped intimacy and trust that they need. They both have huge trust and intimacy issues. Haymitch more than Effie, granted, but I don’t think she’s the kind of girl who would drop everything to follow a guy without being 100% certain he loves her without question. She’s a romantic, no questions, but she’s also pragmatic. I’m not sure we get those conditions with movie!hayffie. 

ALSO I realize this is all my hc and basically book!verse doesn’t give us much more to go on but I really do believe with all my heart the only reason Haymitch would be open to having a romantic (committed) relationship post MJ (and take a shot at sobriety on top of it) is because of Effie, of their long complicated affair and because he realized he loved her a little too late. Two things in movie verse: either they were hooking up and he doesn’t have the *gasp she’s in the Capitol’s hands, I lost her, shit I love her don’t I?” reveal (although I guess we can still have him start realizing during VT and go from there) so the knowledge he actually wants her in his life full time is slower to come OR they start hooking up in MJ and he doesn’t have the years of denial and tentative repressed feelings so I’m not sure how we go from him being a hermit to him wanting to be committed to someone he was sure he disliked even though he was fond of her. 

And she might have the same doubts. Basically a movie!hayffie relationship would have a lot of things to work out. But the thing with movie!hayffie is that Haymitch backstory isn’t explained (is it? I don’t remember. I blacked out most of the things I was disappointed about and boy was I disappointed with the Finnick reveal scene) and Effie’s background is very unexplored so it’s kind of sandbox. I’m too fixed in my own hc and visions of the characters by now but someone else might come up with very various backstories and backgrounds and make it work better than I could maybe...  

If you read all that rambling and made sense of it, I give you a golden star. Maybe I’m way off base though. It’s been a while since I watched the movies. I really didn’t like MJ1 and 2 much. There were stuff I liked, some scenes, mostly papa!H and mama!E, obviously I enjoyed the hayffie... But idk, 13 is too different from what I pictured, not strict enough, and I’m irked every time Coin gives Katniss a peptalk that should have come from Haymitch. The lack of Haymitch is also annoying to me. He’s supposed to be a key player and he’s just in the background. Even Effie is more useful, I feel. 

Anyway, see how my brain works? You ask a question and it jumps in a thousand different directions. I’m not sure I did a good job at explaining my thoughts. 

But do share yours! I’m interested! It’s been a while since we talked headcanons and meta! I’ll put this on the tag if people are feeling like reading ramblings and discussing their own vision... 

All hcs and meta are interesting! 

[ellanainthetardis]

(1/4) (sorry this is a super long reply hahah) i loove that as a hc! im a big fan of effie picking up on it when the victors dont. I can definitely see that, especially when she's so used to faking things herself and being around so many fake relationships in the city. I can totally see her picking up on jo having feelings for finnick. But i think youre right, Effie can be a total bitch but I dont think she’s malicious in that way.

(2/4)I do ship Jo and finnick but, kind of like you said, its a bit of a guilty pleasure ship rather than a real one. I think its the kind I’d like in an AU or something but in canon would always feel a little off because i love annie so much. I do hc jo having a bit of a thing for finnick though. Even if its just because he’s her best friend and, when she’s probably used to using sex/relationships as a weapon, i think it would be easy to imagine that being together with finnick would be simple; (3/4) like hanging out with her best friend all the time and also with great sex, even though it would probably never be that easy and she knows that as well. I could definitely see them slipping and sleeping together at some point though - you’re right, even the great finnick odair isnt flawless- but i could totally see them both understanding that it was a mistake even if jo does have feelings for him (maybe that would do the whole ‘get it out of their system’ thing that hayffie was probably (4/4) trying and failing to do in the beginning hahah). I really like the idea of annie inheriting finnick’s best friend in jo though - i think it would work well as compensation for them both missing him in their lives because jo would substitute as the more grounded side of finnick to annie, and annie would make up for softer, more caring characteristics that jo would lose in her best friend when finnick dies. thank you for sharing though! i’ve always been curious as i love how you write them!

Oh yes I like what you’re saying about coconuts between them being simple... Also because Jo would trust Finnick more than anyone else, I guess. And yes, I do love them but I also love the fact that they’re just friends - at least on Finnick’s side. And I do think even if there’s something on Jo’s, it wouldn’t be an issue in the friendship because she doesn’t really care for romantic love (or she’s not ready to admit she cares) so it won’t be the sore point it could in another relationship. And I’m with you, I love Annie and Finnick so much that I couldn’t ship him with someone else in a OTP way but I really like the idea that there’s something there with jo left unexplored... 

I’m glad I found someone who shares this hc!