#2) the people that argue with it are...

[moeitsu]

Every time someone in this fandom romanticizes Abigail's prostitution, an angel looses its wings.

I can’t believe this still needs to be said, but let’s clear something up: Abigail Roberts was not “saved” by the Van der Linde gang out of the goodness of their hearts. She was a 17-year-old working girl. Yes, a prostitute—brought into the gang by Uncle because of her profession, not because they wanted to “help an orphan girl.” Pretending otherwise is not just wrong, it’s an insult to her character and completely misrepresents the darker themes of the game.

“They wouldn’t take advantage of a 17-year-old girl!” Really? These are men who rob, kill, and lie without hesitation. They absolutely would and did take advantage of her. Dutch was not some saintly father figure; he was an opportunist who saw value in people only as long as they served his needs. The gang didn’t “rescue” Abigail, they exploited her vulnerabilities and used her just like they used everyone else.

Even within the game, there’s a camp interaction where Susan Grimshaw tells Abigail she should return to prostitution to bring in more money for the gang. If that doesn’t make it clear how the gang viewed her role, I don’t know what will.

Abigail’s story isn’t some fairy tale about a group of noble outlaws saving an orphan. It’s about survival in a brutal, unforgiving world. She didn’t have a choice in staying with the gang. This idea that the gang was Robin Hood-like and only “stole from the rich to give to the poor” doesn’t erase the fact that they were still criminals who exploited people whenever they could, including Abigail.

The game wants you to sit with the uncomfortable truths of these characters. It shows you the dark realities of their actions and the systemic issues of the time. Romanticizing Abigail’s situation or painting the gang as her saviors completely undermines that. It’s not just naïve...it’s flat-out wrong.

This kind of take isn’t just ignorant; it’s borderline insulting to anyone who’s been in a similar situation. Abigail’s story is powerful because it’s not pretty. She was used, exploited, and forced to live a life she didn’t choose—but she fought tooth and nail to survive and make a better life for Jack. That’s what makes her compelling, not some sugar-coated fantasy about her being “rescued.”

Take off the rose-colored glasses and actually think critically about what the game is showing you. Abigail’s resilience is what makes her an incredible character—not some fake narrative about Dutch and the gang being her saviors. They weren’t.

It’s fine to love the characters, but stop twisting their stories to fit some idealized version of the gang. They’re criminals. Abigail was exploited by them. That’s the truth, and nothing about it is going to be pretty.

Abigail deserves way more respect than this.

[makaramon]

Obito as Red Hood from an old halloween art

[teapot-of-tyrahn]

"YOU betrayed me last season, so i don't love YOU right now!"

and then she punched pearl.

i just want to remind everybody that the only season gem has played in has been secret life. secret life, in which if you punched a player, they lost a heart from their healthbar, something valuable and incredibly difficult to re-obtain. punching somebody is an act of great disrespect and detestation.

so that wasn't just a punch. not with that context. no, that was was an act of pure, unadulterated hatred.

[cali]

really a lot of the time i am onto something big. my idea for revolutionizing music:

[enigmaticexplorer]

You will never convince me that a codependent relationship is the best romantic relationship in Star Wars.

[gameringgungke]

edit 2: leak is FAKE everyone, go home

so of course i'm keeping up with the pokemon leaks and

I KNEW IT

I FUCKING KNEW IT

I SAID THE KANTO FAVORITISM STARTED BECAUSE OF BW'S BACKLASH AND WAS GOING TO MAJORLY STAGNANTETHE SERIES FOR YEARS AND NOBODY BELIEVED ME

update 113 notes later: might be fake, idk

[luckthebard]

I keep kicking the hornets nest about this topic recently but in keeping with my opinions on character death being Good, Actually for fiction I’m just going to say:

If you’re mad about lesbians dying in Andor, the Everyone Dies show whose theme music is a funeral march, then what you are mad at is that there are lesbians in Andor.

[yazthebookish]

Why is the whole "Gwyn is a child" topic is being discussed again? Sarah killed it in May 2021 by confirming Gwyn is a "fully grown woman". She left no question about it.

Cassian calling her a girl is irrelevant because Rowan called Aelin both a girl and a child, that didn't stop him from ending up with her because we know Aelin is already almost an adult at 19.

Sarah retconned (which is not something new) the aging process of Fae in ACOMAF. The bat boys and Mor fought in the Great War in their mid-20s, are we to believe the Night Court is sending children as soldiers? Mor and Lady of Autumn were betrothed/engaged at 18, would SJM promote child marriages? Gwyn tells Nesta she didn't get a chance to lie with a male during the Great Rite, meaning she was already old enough to have sexual relations with others.

The books have enough hints that High Fae are already adults once they reach their 20s. If people didn't complain about Mor and the Bat Boys joining a war as "children" in their 20s, then there's no point in arguing about Gwyn's age over something that was retconned in ACOMAF not ACOSF.

Her being bubbly has nothing to do with maturity, if you don't have a bubbly adult in your life it's probably dull. Also, it's not like she's bubbly and unserious 24/7, she's vigilant about her work and is quite empathetic and helps Nesta understand her own feelings.

This argument has been dead for 3 years and a half, let's put it to rest.

[arkaniist]

i really dislike the noncanon second season of kuroshitsuji for many reasons but maybe the most damning is that they made ciel too... special. i know but hear me out. i haven't rewatched s2 in probably a decade but i still remember alois getting tossed aside in the eleventh hour because claud got a whiff of ciel's catnip soul and lost interest in his contractor. and now i'm sat here thinking about that like. okay so they were trying to imply (purposely or not) that ciel and sebastian don't have a special and unique relationship, sebastian just lucked out and got the single yummiest soul ever and he's only loyal because ciel is irresistable demon aphrodisiac. and every other demon would treat ciel the exact same because he's the bella swan of kuroshitsuji.

i don't like it! i understand the appeal of those kinds of romances but the thing is, that's not a genre convention for gothic romance, which sebaciel absolutely is. gothic romance couples don't get together because fmc is the most special mary sue ever and ml just can't say no. gothic romance is about broken people finding companionship, understanding, acceptance, and love in the ONE other person who can accept them for who they are when they have been outcast by the rest of their society. (and it usually ends tragically because one person can't be all of that for another person but that's another post.)

phantom of the opera wouldn't have happened with some other girl. jane eyre and wuthering heights wouldn't have happened with some other girl. the love interests are not interchangeable. gothic romance is about the individuals and how they very specifically fit each other to make each other better or worse.

ciel should only ever be appealing to sebastian and vice versa. in fact i hope sebastian's demon friends are all rolling their eyes at his obsession with that prissy annoying british boy.

[cintasvel]

Why I think Andor S2 ultimately fails Vel as a character

What it says on the tin. Let's go.

Wait!! Quick disclaimer: I have nothing against Faye Marsay as an actress. She did a phenomenal job as Vel, and any and all criticisms are very much directed at the writing, and not Faye's characterization of what little she got. Give that woman an Emmy. In fact, give her two.

Ok, now let's go.

Two key aspects of Vel are established very quickly in the first season of Andor. The first: she's stepping into the role of a leader, determined and takes no shit. The second? She's in love with Cinta. it is only with Cinta that we see the real Vel, her fear, her love, come to light. In Aldhani, she's fierce and doesn't let how scared she actually is show until she's alone with Cinta. It is Cinta's presence that calms Vel to give the go-ahead. It is Cinta whom Vel mirrors, out of love and admiration for everything she represents.

It's compelling, then, as we move past the Aldhani arc, that we learn more about Vel and her reasons for doing all this. Vel's rebellion isn't just about the Empire. She's Mon Mothma's cousin, and through Mon, Leida, Perrin, and the show's depiction of Chandrilan society, we learn that Vel is considered an outsider. She's not married, has no interest in it, and is largely seen as a bit of a spinster. Perrin makes a comment that all the good ones are gone now at her age (Vel's age is never established, but I assume she's in her early 30s personally), which makes her unmarried self stick out like a sore thumb. Cinta later confirms this by saying Vel is 'a rich girl running away from her family'. Not only is she fighting for revolution, but also actively trying to keep far away from the heteronormative society that she's come from because it is stifling her! Not being able to be your true, authentic self is oppression. It's what makes Vel choosing the rebellion, choosing to fight instead of staying neutral and relying solely on her family's wealth, so interesting. And yes, being a gay woman is a vital part of her character. No, I don't care if Tony Gilroy says otherwise. I won't touch too much on that, but i recommend @chipthekeeper's great post about Vel + being a gay woman and its significance to her character.

Now, by the time Andor s2 kicks around, Vel isn't in too much of a different mindset from where we left off in s1. She's chosen the rebellion, and now has experience under her belt. Her introduction in s2 reminds us of two things: she's got her own personal rebellion to deal with (aka being a gay woman in the heteronormative society of Chandrila) and her and Cinta's relationship is on the rocks because Cinta puts duty above her. We see the effect of this on Vel, who is understandably heartbroken that she and Cinta are on two different wavelengths and has to deal with her niece being sold to fund the Rebellion she is part of, while also being there for her cousin, Mon Mothma. This takes a turn when Vel later sees Cinta taking away Tay Kolma, and the two share a look. Now, two things are essential to Vel here, but I'll focus on the most obvious: Vel's crash-out. After seeing Cinta, Vel looks out of the window (every Velcinta fan knows how important windows are for these two) and sighs. Everyone, except Mon, is joyful in comparison as they sip wine and toast this heteronormative union. Vel yearns to have her own happiness with Cinta. However, as we learned earlier, she isn't the only one yearning for this. Cinta looks back at Vel after she walks off. This is important to establish because it's vital to demonstrate that the two are mirrors of one another and that Cinta also wants to be with Vel. It also keeps on theme for the two: they rarely look at one another at the same time, which is heartbreaking in of itself. The lead-up to the events of their next episode together is obvious: the two want to be together, but Luthen, Kleya, and the mission are keeping them apart. Again, this isn't different from S1.

The two reunite on Ghorman and declare that ultimately, they are on this mission together because of each other. They no longer want to be part of Luthen's games, they both know that they don't matter to him in the long run, that they are only valuable to him when they are apart. But to them? The only thing that matters is one another. Now, as rushed as this arc was (I could have done with like, at least 3 more episodes with Cinta alone, just saying) it did give us a clear vision of their 'hope' for the season: the two of them together, fighting for their future and the Rebellion. This is Vel's (and Cinta's) ultimate goal; this is what she aims for.

Right. You all know what happens next. Cinta is killed via a stray bullet to paint the picture of another 'how senseless, how tragic' death, and also hammer home that the Ghormans are out of their depth. This is, despite already being established, like, a whole two episodes ago, but whatever; that's not the point. This is a particularly cruel death, because Vel gives a monologue that, while beautiful, seems to put the blame on not just Samm, but herself. She wanted Cinta on the mission. Cinta was only here because of her. Tony Gilroy wanted to give Vel baggage, and by god, this was the only way he saw how. Worse still, Gilroy has the gall to say he treated them the same as any other couple, but do either Cassian or Bix get killed or face any negative repercussions from killing Gorst? For daring to work together and be in love? Of course not. Only Vel, who dared to want and love Cinta, gets punished by the narrative.

Now we reach the heart of why Cinta's death, unfortunately, marks the beginning of the failure to tie up Vel's character in a way that, befitting the other endings of the characters in Andor S2, feels hopeful and, as such, feels like a failure to Vel as a whole.

After Cinta's death, Vel gets four scenes at most, and none of them are utilized in service to her character's development. The closest thing that actually does serve her in some way is her conversation with Bix, where Vel tells Bix that she's been grounded because she was becoming too reckless. Yet another moment of 'cool, I'd have liked to have seen this instead of it being inferred to.' Regardless, it establishes that Vel is going above and beyond in missions to the point it's borderline suicidal. But again!!! This is only momentary. Her following few scenes are to highlight Melshi (yes, the gun scene is very nice, and I can see the argument to it being a callback to Aldhani and the officer's reminder that if you're carrying a gun without regulation makes you a fucking idiot, but come on, it's to introduce Melshi), encourage Cassian to reunite with Bix, and remind Kleya that she's not alone, that she's got friends everywhere.

On the surface, all of these aforementioned scenes are good. I won't say I didn't enjoy Cassian and Vel toasting the people they lost; that was a great moment -- and I will never ever get over Faye Marsay's outstanding acting, from the throat tremble at hearing Cinta's name to the clear disdain in her eyes at the mention of Luthen. But it leads me back to what I said before: these scenes are in service to Kleya, Cassian, and Bix. To me, Vel felt like a megaphone to give off advice, and it hurt me because Vel shouldn't be a tool to be used. She's one of the main characters.

That said, I'm not too surprised Vel becomes underutilized after Cinta's death. Because Cinta's death is ultimately what leads to my main problem with Vel after s2e6. The problem with getting rid of Cinta for Vel's development is that, ultimately, it rends Vel's in two. The reason for this is that Vel and Cinta weren't just a couple. They were narratively built for each other. As I've previously established, Cinta is the ideal that Vel strives to live up to. Cinta is the hardened rebel, a survivor of genocide, someone whose entire society and culture have been stomped on and left behind by the Empire. She has nothing to her name but anger and her desire for revenge. She's in the Rebellion because there is no other choice for her. Vel, on the other hand, is a wealthy socialite with a family, something Cinta doesn't have. Vel joins the Rebellion because she cannot stand the injustice that the Empire brings. Vel chooses the Rebellion when many others in her position do not. While there are some CLEAR differences between Vel and Cinta, under the Rebellion? They are equals who challenged and bettered each other. Cinta was what Vel needed to see. But as it turns out, Vel was the reminder for Cinta that the fight means nothing if you've not got something to fight for.

Ironically, in making Cinta a tool to give Vel 'extra luggage', Andor S2 makes Vel less of a character and more of a weary operator pushing buttons to get 1) the plot going or 2) stick the knife in deeper to give more depth to Cassian and Bix's relationship, solely because by association she knows what it's like to be part of a 'right person, wrong time' relationship. Because yeah, let's have the lone queer in the Rebellion act like a suffering mediator of a heterosexual relationship. Masterful gambit, Mr Gilroy. It's not like we could have used that time for Vel to do literally anything else. It wouldn't have made Cinta's death any better, but I'd have at least liked to see Vel's grief play a significant part in her so-called arc. Instead, Vel becomes a passive character, and while I can see the argument that Cinta's death is the catalyst that forces Vel to mature and become a hardened warrior, stepping into Cinta's shadow and effectively becoming Cinta to keep her alive (yet another example of mirroring, btw) I ultimately find it contradictory to what Andor builds up about Vel.* Yes, Vel is fighting the Empire because she believes in what The Rebellion stands for, but it's also for a better tomorrow with Cinta. That's like, established in S1. So for Vel to be effectively punished for that feels like the weirdest condemnation ever. Oh Vel, you dared to love someone? Here's your reward: the tragedy of all tragedies. While other characters' arcs continue, Cinta's death puts a full stop to Vel's story. And I do mean Vel's story; I do not mean Kleya's, Mon's, or Cassian's. Vel's story. This essay is not about the future for Vel after the Andor S2 credits rolled; it is about what I'm being directly shown by the text. I am not interested in fanon interpretation of what happens with Vel afterwards.

*That's not even mentioning that I don't find it compelling for a white character to step into the shoes of the only queer WOC.

Anyway. This leads me to my conclusion on why Andor S2 fundamentally failed Vel. While Cassian walks off to his death, we get to see what the other main characters are doing by the end of S2. Kleya loses Luthen, but gets a sense of peace and fulfillment in knowing their hard work paid off with Yavin. Bix loses Cassian, but gets a baby to highlight the hope of fighting for the children of tomorrow (and you know I have opinions about that too). Wilmon gets domestic comfort with Dreena. Mon can be herself FULLY as the leader of the Rebellion, hopeful of a future where the empire is gone.

So, what's Vel's hopeful ending? Her commitment to the rebellion? The rebellion that she was already committed to even back in S1? That's Vel's ending? That's Vel's hope? Not the relationship she dreamed of with Cinta? I love Mon and Vel's relationship, and Vel reaching out to Kleya to show friendship is hopeful within itself, I acknowledge that. But again, particularly the latter, these moments are not about Vel. None of them represents Vel's own personal rebellion. Surely people realize how weirdly slanted that is towards your only alive queer character? Every other ending has a hopeful sheen to it except for Vel's. And I'm what, supposed to be happy that she's alive? Now don't get me wrong. I am! But Vel's arc being what, a lesson to always put the Rebellion first, to never want anything but the fight? That's the lesson you wish to teach those who care about Vel to take from her arc? It makes zero sense.

So, yes, Vel's arc of fighting for a better tomorrow with Cinta is crushed for no real reason, because Vel doesn't get the room to even grieve for Cinta afterward. Doesn't get the chance to even figure out who she is without Cinta before S2 ends. She ends up traumatized with grief and the future title of being the Last Survivor of Aldhani. And it just falls flat. It doesn't feel hopeful. It feels insulting. Oh, you've made the remaining queer character in your cast stuck with the most miserable ending out there?

This has never happened before. Ever!

[squidgirlautism]

every argument goyim make against jews in eretz is literally just “jews can’t be indigenous because [anti indigenous argument] [anti indigenous argument] [gross misunderstanding of judaism] [arab colonialism]”

[liorlenn]

(Spoilers for KCD2 romance)

One thing that really surprised me about Kingdom Come: Deliverance II (particularly the Hansry romance) was the direct reference to Galehaut and Lancelot (let me tell you I CHEERED), so I wanted to start talking about some other queer medieval Arthurian texts and Arthuriana adjacent texts.

I’m by no means an expert (I focus more on Welsh poetry and prose) but medieval Welsh literature includes some Arthurian literature, so I know a little about Arthurian Literature in general. Most of these stories are either Old French or German and about 13th century. SGATGK is 14th century.

For one, I want to say that the tale being referenced in the game is the Vulgate Cycle or the Lancelot-Grail Cycle (the Vulgate Cycle itself is multiple parts, with Lancelot’s (The Story of Lancelot/Prose Lancelot) being the largest). It’s a big ol’ mash up and retelling of a huge part of the early tradition + new stuff. There’s also the Post-Vulgate which is itself a retelling of the Vulgate Cycle. This is NOT the one you want if you’re looking for Lancelot and Galehaut.

Another thing of note about the Vulgate is that Galehaut and Lancelot are not the only ones I would give the old side eye. Gawain says (about Lancelot even!), “If God were to grant me my health… I’d immediately wish to be the most beautiful maiden in the world, happy and healthy, on condition that he would love me above all others…” Come on man.

Now, for other queer texts!

First up, I have to plug my best friend and my silly rabbit: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Thanks to the movie (which was good but fairly different) this one is a bit more well-known. I could talk endlessly about the moral of the original story and I think the Gawain Poet is incredibly talented at weaving together imagery. I also appreciate Gawain’s willingness to kiss women AND men. Some argue that it’s not queer because of differing social norms but personally I think Gawain wanted it. And by it, haha well let’s jusrt say—

Next we have Parzival/Percival (referencing the German “version” by Wolfram von Eschenbach here. Each iteration of a “Percival”, including Chrétien de Troyes’ earlier (and unfinished) Story of the Grail, all have their own differences). This one is even more up to interpretation than SGATGK. There’s a very explicitly performative aspect to Parzival’s presentation (his gender is “knight”), focusing distinctly on clothing and the role clothing plays in others’ reactions to him that I think is very relatable. I don’t have much else to say about this one unfortunately. I read parts of it once years ago but it was super interesting and there has been scholarship done on Parzival and gender so…. take what you will from it.

The next stories are Arthurian adjacent (as in, medieval stories about knights). First off: Le Roman de Silence is either about a woman knight or a trans knight who is… sighs. Forcibly outed. Interesting read but definitely a bit of a downer if you interpret Silence as a trans man.

Yde et Olive, however is very explicitly about a trans man! Happy ending too! I was incredibly surprised to read a 13th century story about a trans man getting magical/miraculous top and bottom surgery (yes, forreal).

And to cap off this small list, here is some medieval Welsh literature. This one is just me being a little wistful, but let me tell you about Blodeuedd/Blodeuwedd and the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi (Math fab Mathonwy). This one is…sad. It’s not a good ending for Blodeuedd, but I could wax poetic about her: how she was fashioned from flowers to fulfill a gendered role. How she failed to do so and was punished.

There are plenty of other stories with queer interpretations in Arthuriana and other medieval literature (do not get me started on Guinevere and Morgan le Fay’s whole… thing. Also Luned and her Lady…) and there are plenty of modern/early modern retellings that are explicitly queer. I just wanted to stick to medieval texts for this and also limit myself to a select few among that even.

[hollowtones]

to some degree dumb forum arguments have been a core part of the Fallout series since the earliest days so im glad(?) to see it still. the long and beautiful continuity of humankind...

[susanoos-wife]

Thing that has happened to me way too many times:

[beepiesheepie]

For anyone outside the tf2 Fandom right now this is our destiel is canon moment

[assiraphales]

‘it’s weird to ship x character with anyone because they don’t like sex’ since when did asexuality mean you’re incapable of receiving/feeling romantic love? broaden ur horizons babey