#ALECTO THE NINTH PLEASE INTERACT

[maidofmetal]

i fucking finished nona nfjfndnnfnmxfmmdmd

[elfieafterdark]

I will say this about the Alectopause, and please bear with me because I'm going to do this the way I actually think.

It physically pains me that we have so little Gideon in the series, like, interacting with other people. She's completely locked out of interacting with anybody in Harrow the Ninth, and she's barely in Nona (hehehe)

But.

Consider this.

We know that Nona the Ninth was supposed to be the first half of Alecto the Ninth, meaning that *"Kiriona"* was supposed to show up halfway through Alecto.

This means in the original trilogy, we would have had about 1.5 books featuring Gideon functional and interacting with other people. All of Gideon the Ninth and half of Alecto.

However, since Nona was split off into its own book, we're now (hopefully) going to get another book of Gideon interacting with other people, bringing our ratio to 2.5 which is over half of the series.

I see this as a win, assuming that Tamsyn doesn't just kill her again partway through. Which would be a great tragedy because the best part about rereading Gideon the Ninth, and indeed the entire series, is Gideon.

Anyway that's just a thought I'm having this morning. Stay strong my friends.

[harrowharks-iliac-crest]

Theories Masterpost

[Previously Pinned Post]

Having just about finished my first GtN and HtN rereads, I am brimming with theories! Worldbuilding, characters, plot - so many.

For the sake of convenience, I'll break these up into multiple posts. They will be tagged #tlt theories, and presumably they will multiply and change as I make my way through Nona the Ninth.

Posts are in a queue and will post once a day, to give me time to update all the links and make sure the next post is ready to go out as planned. Once I finish the theory posts I will go straight into my NtN liveblog, which I assume will also be queued for convenience, at least until posts catch up with my reading progress.

Heads up, I have quite a busy time ahead of me so I can't make any promises on how often I'll update. We will see what the future brings.

For now: enjoy! And as ever, please feel free to interact, but no spoilers please!

-

Worldbuilding/Lore

The Nine Houses

The Resurrection

Necromancy

Lyctorhood

The River

-

Characters

Gideon Nav

Wake

Cytherea

Harrowhark Nonagesimus

Ianthe, Coronabeth and the Blood of Eden

Camilla and Palamedes

John/God

Alecto

-

Plot Predictions

General

Who is Nona?

[jods-duplicitous-sluts]

Alecto the Ninth News

Part Two

If you haven't read part one, click here. If you are looking for part three, click here.

Another bunch of screenshots and links after the cut

If you enjoy this post please reblog so more people can see it!

Source: The Portalist Interview

• wonder who all this could reference...let's see: Gideon, Harrow, Ianthe, John, Judith, Coronabeth, Pyrrah, Aiglamene, and Sarpedon are who I can think of that match this in the literal sense of not being dead[well...] at the end of Nona. But if we start including souls we've seen in the river and deaths we've only heard about or were in any way ambiguous....it gets more interesting. I'd imagine the BOE who were on the Ninth will continue to be involved like AIM and Pash. I'd assume Paul will be a major player despite not technically appearing in two books and maybe Juno Zeta and Kiki?

Source: The Library Journal

• this kind of ties into the above but also ties into the harrowing of hell/what's wrong with the river plot line. I'm still saying John did something to damn the river and feeds off the energy of all the ghosts of the past 10,000 years being unable to cross to the beyond. I'd also venture that it has something to do with needing to restore the soulnof Earth as the rightful power/God of their universe. But eh. Maybe that's too simple. Again, all just speculation on my part.

Source: In the Margin

• This whole interview is great but this part about tragic figures in the locked tomb stuck out to me. It definitely seems like the third temptation will be a subject for Alecto and yet again heading into the Catholic allegories. Obviously referencing to the third temptation of Christ.

For the third and final temptation in Matthew (presented as the second temptation of the three in Luke) the devil takes Jesus to a high place, which Matthew explicitly identifies as a very high mountain[or a tower], where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen. The spot pointed out by tradition as the summit from which Satan offered to Jesus dominion over all earthly kingdoms. The temptation to assume leadership over the kingdoms of man. The kingdoms Jesus would inherit through Satan are obtained through love of power and political oppression. Barrett characterizes this "the old but ever new temptation to do evil that good may come; to justify the illegitimacy of the means by the greatness of the end." [From Wikipedia]

Basically the temptation to overthrow God.

Source: In the Margin

• A return to Canaan House and its mysteries. Is this in regards to the devils and the tower, Abigail and her theory about the secret private chambers of the Emperor, Palamades being systematically lied to about the ages and psychometric signatures in Canaan House or Harrow and her secret door theory? Or something else entirely...but I'm glad that we may get another glimpse into Canaan House.

Source: Nerd Daily Aug. 2020 interview

• Now this interview is pre-Nona as its own book, but I can't think of any 2 characters that interact in Harrow that would have had a moment that fits this in Nona. Brutal sincerity? It feels like it has to involve Harrow, John, Ianthe or Gideon in some way.

Source: The Nerd Daily 2020

• Again on the theme of love which relates to Nona, but TazMuir has said in other interviews to expect that theme to continue onto Alecto.

Also don't expect everyone to get what's coming to them which doesn't shock me.

Source: LA Book Review

• Pre-Nona interview. But talking about Gideon and Harrow’s relationship dynamic changing as their standing changes. Obviously we're going to see some fallout/paradigm shifts with Gideon being the heir aparent of God and Harrow basically becoming a heretic of sorts.

Source: The Library Journal

• Broad strokes here about character growth and a painful but begrudging happiness that some characters will find. But there is a chance at happiness. So that's something a lot of haven't been counting on.

Source: Vox Bookclub Podcast transcript

• while this is a reference to Harrow the Ninth it does mention to look out for more biblical allusion in Alecto. Now, I'm pretty sure this is pre-Nona announcement and obviously we got all the John biblical references but from the other interviews we've been talking about we know there is so harrowing of hell and temptation of christ in our future. Maybe someone more upon Bible study can chime in with other Biblical passages or stories that may come into play that fit the same theme?

Source: The Coode Street Podcast

• Paraphrasing but On episode 598 of the Coode Street podcast, Tamsyn Muir said that Alecto the Ninth was completed but hadn't been edited yet and that she doubted it would be out by the end of 2023 as it was a "chonky boy" or a "chungus" (her words). That podcast was released in December, so I'm assuming recorded in November or earlier.

Seems to me like any listed dates right now are probably placeholders until Tor announces an official release date.

PHEW! That was a lot so far. To be honest there are some other podcast interviews I know I've listened to in the past but haven't had time to revisit for this project so I may be missing some things.

We have one more roundup of interview screenshots to go, but it will have to be its own post. And the theme of part 3 of ATN news is: CW: Ianthe Tridentarius. Yep. There are so many mentions referring to Ianthe in Alecto that they will be their own post. [Yikes]

Click here to see part 3 of this post

[thanergeticbloom]

I really need to know more about how cam and pal felt in regards to nona. as they got to know her and grow attached to her over the months, they were operating under the leading theories of her being gideon, or a gideon/harrow amalgate with amnesia.

did they think they were getting to know gideon on a deeper level? did they feel like the bond they were nurturing was with their old ninth allies? how did they feel when they found out that nona was actually something completely different, and gideon was never in there? that what they thought they might have learned about their ninth pal’s souls, was actually never them.

how much of their care for nona was driven by their impression that it might be their deeply traumatized canaan buddies in there? did their feelings change very much when they learned the truth?

paul please reflect on nona in ATN. please interact with alecto. I guess that’s one of my big wishlist items for ATN

[inheroes--wetrust]

ok this is based on first read only so it might get crazy but there is no fucking way that kiriona is gideon. evidence below anyone please feel free to discuss i am FERAL over here

(EDIT: no fucking way that kiriona is *full gideon. i am now fully in camp "kiriona is gideon with some very very key pieces missing like oh i dont know her love and humanity")

1) during the broadcast and in the book, it's made very clear that gideon's body is dead. she's described as waxy like naberius (who we all know is dead as a doornail). if it's gideon's body and gideon's soul, they should snap back together no issues. palamedes seems to think that just bringing nona close to gideon's body would draw her soul out and gideon would be whole again, and palamedes is the smartest necromancer of his generation (love you bb). there's a soul piloting a body here. they aren't cohesive.

2) tamsyn said in a recent interview (https://books.tumblr.com/post/693388542787846144/writer-spotlight-tamsyn-muir-tamsyn-muir-probably) there is a pecking order to POV characters. paraphrasing here, but she said that if possible, gideon is first and foremost the POV character. we obviously see this in HtN - gideon is narrating the mithraeum chapters of the book, and as soon as she comes to the surface, she is the POV character. when they first came into contact with gideon's walking and talking corpse, i half expected POV to switch to gideon, but we never got that.

3) a fucking FRIENDSHIP BRACELET? with IANTHE???? hell fucking no. what in the world. why would they even put that there? it makes absolutely zero sense, there's no point to it other than for nona to point out they're working together. chekhov's friendship bracelet. maybe ianthe is controlling gideon's corpse somehow? i have no idea it's four in the morning.

4) the way she interacts with everyone but especially the sixth house. you expect me to believe that gideon nav sees a dying cam for the first time since her sacrifice and is just like oh hey cam looks like you're dying soon? absolutely not. the sex pal thing was also aggressive. very "hey palamedes remember that thing we did together who else would know i called you sex pal once". iirc, she never actually called him that - she was just pointing out a fun gideon fact.

5) she doesn't care about harrow. gideon cares EXCLUSIVELY about harrow. gideon "it was not my thumb to let them bite off" sees alecto piloting harrow's body and just says sure i'm going to let that happen? not in ten thousand years.

this obviously leaves a million questions starting with 1) who is kiriona and 2) WHERE IS GIDEON but these are 100% two different souls. tamsyn i need alecto now please and thank you.

EDIT: More evidence on the second reread.

6) when cam and nona-as-harrow go to see ianthe, ianthe says, "How are you surviving, Harrowhark the First? How can you stand beneath the light of Number Seven? Unless I am addressing..." and then nona screams, there's a general panic, and ianthe is like FINE OKAY FUCKING RELAX and tells nona she's coming back to the emperor with her. lyctors can survive an RB when their cavs are at the forefront. harrow's cav is gideon. and pre-NtN, harrow had a lobotomy that caused her to have a breakdown at the sound of gideon's name. what else would she have been saying other than "Unless I am addressing Gideon Nav", which should make no sense considering ianthe knows full well that kiriona exists. unless of course kiriona is not gideon or at least not gideon all the way.

7) https://www.tor.com/2022/09/13/tamsyn-muir-on-lyctorhood-as-genderfuckery-and-greasy-bible-study-in-nona-the-ninth/ new interview by tamsyn for the nona release. the last question strongly hints that gideon's body and gideon's soul - or at least not all of it - are not in the same place, and at least some of it is still with harrow.

8) pyrrha says john shouldn't have been able to pull gideon's soul all the way back to put her back in her body. she explicitly says that harrow still has a piece of gideon and john could not have gotten it back, AND that john should have been able to do better. he resurrects. that's LITERALLY his thing. he should have been able to bring gideon back perfectly, but he didn't. why?

9) get in line, thou big slut. on first glance, this is gideon nav to a t. i love her so much. however. i find it SUPER interesting that slut, which has (to my knowledge) never been used in the previous two books, is used twice in NtN both by ianthe - once about the original lyctors, once about corona. idk what it was about it, but the use of it three times in the book, when previous insults have been along the lines of "you mutant, you mistake, you great big calf-eyed fuck-up" just struck me a little. iffy. this one is definitely more out there but the use of slut in the book just stood out to me for some reason (a sentence you can only type when talking about the locked tomb).

upon further review i have decided that kiriona and gideon are definitely not 100% the same soul, but kiriona could have a piece of gideon's soul, because a lot of the ninth house stuff is very gideon, especially with crux. i still want alecto now.

[intrepidscholar]

Fine.... I guess it's time for my Nona theory. With the new chapter released- this is a long one so buckle up.

I think that Nona is Alecto AND Gideon in Harrow's body. This is because there are some sections of the text that have a weird hyphen between words and the style of the narration changes slightly.

Additionally, I think that Alecto is a resurrection beast in a human form thus her feeling presumably more in common with the planet (as highlighted in blue) than with the people. The section between "be-cause" and "al-ways" seems to be more concerned with the feelings of the people on the planet rather than kind of just existing and enjoying the moment with Camilla, Palamades, and Pyrrah

With Camilla taking so many notes about Nona's eyes, perhaps since Gideon and her father share the same eye color there could potentially (not certain because we only have two chapters) be a subtle change in the iris pattern and/or shade indicating that they are switching places. In this section we also see Camilla taking notes about Nona kissing herself and perhaps that is Alecto reenacting her last interaction with Harrow. Trying to reassure her reflection that it was real and that it was okay.

In the green highlighted section we see what actually happened and in the purple we see Harrow - through Gideon's understanding- doubting her own perception. In the blue section we see Harrow feeling that she did wrong and drove Alecto away with her actions, but we see Nona, perhaps reassuring the image of Harrows body that it's okay that she did that and she isn't going away- she came back for her as we see in the text below.

While there is an argument to be made for Harrow's body chemistry being what causes her body's hallucinations- we see that the Lyctor's bodies don't retain necromantic ability without the right soul in the right body so it could stand to reason that because Gideon's soul does not experience schizophrenic hallucinations. Gideon is actually seeing Alecto's soul returning in whole to Harrow and that Alecto may never have been a hallucination at all for Harrow. Harrow just assumed that it was a part of her condition rather than a revenant projection of at least a part of Alecto's soul.

The trauma of escaping the river may have been enough to damage Gideon's soul. Along with the modifications to Harrow's brain and skull, this would make recalling her soul's identity difficult. I feel though that a subtle difference in the eye shade/pattern is possible not only given the example above with Camilla's note taking, but also from the Epilogue of Harrow the Ninth.

So because Camilla knows what Gideon's eyes look like this could suggest that she is not seeing Gideon's eyes, but rather Alecto's eyes and/or the eye colors may be shifting periodically at random.

That's what I think is going on with Nona, but while we're throwing out theories left and right- where's Harrow?

That's a much more tricky question to answer because in the last section of Harrow the Ninth we see Harrow's revenant end up in a projection of all her attachments representing her life, death, and love. I know I highlighted practically everything in the text below, but bear with me as I explain please:

We'll start with the blue and yellow. In the yellow text I think at least part of Harrow's soul attached a revenant link to the Tomb. We see in the blue that Alecto's physical body has actually escaped the Tomb and part of Harrow's should now occupies Alecto's place. This represents her life that she dedicated to her people and her home.

The purple is a revenant link to the sword that housed Commander Wake/the Sleeper's revenant who intended to kill Harrow and, in life, had intended to destroy Harrow's home and purpose. This is her death that she now freely embraces.

Lastly and I continue the red highlighting from above to the continued passage below:

This passage is representative of her link to Gideon, who I would argue is her love. It is unexpected and it vexes her and makes her happier than the cold, familiar comfort of the Tomb.

The blue again represents Alecto vacating the Tomb, but let's focus our attention on the green section. Harrow is actually feeling the movement around her and while she is her home she is noted to be "in a faraway land she had never travelled." With Gideon's body being in the possession of Blood of Eden, it could stand to reason that at least part of her soul is in Gideon's body that could be on a planet where the war is being actively waged.

So to summarize my Harrow section: I think that Harrow's soul is split into three pieces. One is actually in the Tomb, the other is in the sword that housed Commander Wake's revenant, and the last is in Gideon's body. Or Harrow's whole soul is in Gideon's body and what she is seeing is just a projection of her mind like what Palamades did in his river bubble.

Am I reading too much into these probably yes, but I'm having fun with it and that's what matters.

[mercyisms]

If you don't find harrow as interesting to discuss as the other characters I totally understand, but I have been dying to find meta from people much smarter than me about the paragraph from Crux in NtN: "Lady,..you've gone away again, my lady; where have you run?...Who are you this time, if not my Lady Harrowhark?" (pg 459, hardcover) Have you seen any? I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned more, but the NtN has a ton to talk about so

oh! well, i certainly do find harrow, gideon, ianthe, and so on very interesting. i just happen to have a specific illness that makes me very sure i remember almost everything mercymorn and augustine & co have said, and much easier to discuss. that is a fascinating little moment! it strikes me as something that is hard to write meta about, per se, because it refers to something concrete that the author clearly knows but hasn't quite surfaced in the realm of the novel. it's harder to analyze, though potent for speculation! depending on how much you trust crux and his read of harrow's childhood, it certainly suggests a pattern of dissociation or hiding. (again, not enough there for me to call it evidence, but it feels in line with, say, discussions of harrow as a person with schizophrenia? i've seen some thoughtful pieces on that before, though i'm not able to link to any off the top of my head.) it's a brief window into harrow's childhood that harrow herself may not be able to recognize and gideon, in gtn, certainly would not have been privy to. crux's rhetoric, though superficially soothing, is also, perhaps, a way of seeing the different ways harrow came to understand her profound duty to the ninth. i think what i feel certain about re: that moment is it very clearly sets up context for crux's interactions with gideon/kiriona, which strike me as the primary dramatic purpose for crux's return. the comparison between moment of (as best as he can manage anyway/undeniably twisted) tenderness and reaffirmation and the way crux treats paul (crotchety/resentful to outsiders) and gideon (undeterred, spiteful hatred) remind us a) the initial dynamics gideon/harrow were steeped in (and possibly how far they have or haven't come?) and b) how lmao deeply vile and personal crux's hatred for gideon is. it's that "why doesn't it feel good" that is, within nona, still the showstopper for me. (crux being a mutation of a father figure is important there, for sure.) if there was something more you had on your mind, i'd love to hear it! but considering those paragraphs without any further context... to me, they're wonderful bits of colour, but not necessarily enough on their own to suggest much. possibly there will be more to them in alecto -- also possibly it refers to something that will never make the narrative!? however, if people have cool thoughts please link them in he replies.

[veliseraptor]

☕️ locked tomb?

I feel like I was in this place with the Locked Tomb series where I was starting to be kind of 😒about it purely because of the way that I felt like people were talking about it online (ask me how I feel about people describing it as "lesbian necromancers in space" as a description for the series. it's not positive) but then I went back and reread, and read Nona the Ninth, and like...okay, Tamsyn Muir, I think you're actually doing some very interesting stuff I didn't give you credit for previously and I'm now very invested in seeing where Alecto goes.

I alluded to this in the tags of a recent post but where I feel like a lot of people apparently didn't like Nona I actually felt like it made me appreciate Gideon and Harrow more? and felt like it clarified, for me, some stuff about what the series is doing/what it's engaging with on a thematic level.

and now I kind of want to sit down with tamsyn muir and pick her brain for a while, which is not a thing I'm usually invested in doing. not a formal interview, mind you, I want to sit down for drinks and put my elbows on the table and go so tell me what you were thinking here, please explain your thought process, I'm so curious.

anyway. I think I just have to carefully manage how much I interact with people on the internet talking about this series because I don't really want to engage with it in a "typical fandom" way (which is to say, I don't feel particularly attached to the characters and I haven't sought out pretty much any fanfiction). I'm much more interested in it in the thematic underpinnings of it as a work.

[dotdotd]

So I was listening to The Locked Tomb podcast for the first time (it is very very good!!), starting with HtN, and I realized I've been thinking about the body entirely differently than they have.

Specifically in the sections describing Harrow's altered memories of her Ninth House life without Gideon, I thought that the presence of the body in those memories was replacing anything positive Gideon had brought to Harrow throughout her life with a different face- especially because of the gold eyes. For all that they loathed each other there they needed each other, how would her memories have to change around the shape of someone there with her that brought her any sort of comfort?

But was the body always there for Harrow before the lobotomy? Has Harrow carried Alecto since she opened the tomb? Did this come up in GtN in the pool scene because I feel like it would have or should have if Harrow carried Alecto then.

The idea that Alecto is Earth's resurrection beast complicates it too, because her presence might not interact with a human soul or necromancy the way a human soul would either.

I haven't read any of the Nona excerpts or the short story after HtN yet so I'm sure some of this got answered (or was made even more complicated) by that. Just wanted to participate in discussion a little bit myself!!

If anyone has any thoughts or details I missed please respond and let me know! :)

[dr-dendritic-trees]

The Locked Tomb Warnings List

I've been rereading The Locked Tomb and it gets better every reread and I love it with all my heart. Nothing I'm about to write is a criticism of the book.

But I've seen at least half a dozen people in the tags who were genuinely very shocked by what the books were like, because they heard the vaunted "Lesbian necromancers in space" tagline, saw the shippy fanart, and picked up the book expecting something fundamentally fun.

The series is a lot of things... its not that.

So here's my best attempt at an introduction/warning set for the books. I'll do my best to be comprehensive and as spoiler-free as possible. If anyone sees a warning I've missed, please add it!

General Notes:

The well-known "Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!" tagline that seems to get people into the series is basically accurate, but an actual summary would be more like:

When the emperor summons the 8 scions of the imperial death-cult to attempt to ascend to necromantic sainthood the heir to the Ninth House, Harrowhark Nonagesimus, leader of a dying house, finds herself without a cavalier (a sworn swordswoman). In an act of desperation she coerces her childhood nemesis, indentured servant Gideon Nav to accompany her to the first house to protect her house's secrets. But her house isn't the only one covering things up, and the promised lyctoral trial soon descends into a gore-spattered locked room murder mystery.

In Harrow the Ninth newly made necromantic saint Harrowhark Nonagesimus has been recruited to battle the secret enemies of the Emperor-God. But her lyctorhood is incomplete, her allies seem to be out to get her, and she seems to be at risk of losing her sanity, her life or both.

Gideon the Ninth is a very fast paced book, there's a lot of characters, a lot of world-building, and a lot of twists. There are not only things that won't make sense until a second reading, there are things that didn't make sense until I reread it after reading Harrow the Ninth, and there are probably things in it which will look totally different after I've read Alecto the Ninth. Its a dark book and its predominant emotional note is grief. Harrow the Ninth is the same, and, additionally, nearly half of it is written in second person. And basically, until Alecto the Ninth comes out, whether we actually know what happened is a totally open question.

That said, while its a dark book and a whole range of terrible things happens to these characters, while they are not treated at all gently, their experiences, and their many failings, are approached with nuance and mercy. They're not happy books but they're very cathartic. I do genuinely recommend them to all comers, I just don't want them to horrify and upset anyone.

Warnings List:

Gideon the Ninth Contains:

- Depictions of abuse (physical, emotional and spiritual) towards children and in intimate relationships.

- Violence, gore, murder, mass murder (including the deaths of children) and ritual cannibalism.

- Imperialism, indentured servitude and child soldiers, which go largely unremarked.

- Lies, manipulation and gaslighting

- Haunting, possession, body horror, magical violence, creepy skeleton monsters, etc.

- Self-hatred, self-destructive behaviour references to suicide

- Depictions of chronic and terminal illness which are both weird and graphic

- There's also also a lot of interpersonal relationships and interactions that aren't abusive, but are deeply unhealthy to the tune of very traumatized characters trying to deal with their mutually incompatible trauma.

- Death cults (various)

Harrow the Ninth contains:

- Literally all of the above again

- There is a LOT more gaslighting. There's some in GtN, but its a major theme of HtN.

- Depictions of psychosis and unreality. Most people who read this will spend at least some time not knowing what is real or not, its a very deliberate and large part of the narrative.

- Genocide and also a very particular form of mass death

- Reproductive coercion and also some uses of pregnancy and reproductive technology which aren't technically abusive in the real world sense... but will definitely make you feel very bad.

- There's also a blink and you miss it passing reference to child abuse that implies sexual abuse. Its a single short paragraph in chapter 47 but I'd hate for it to catch anyone out.

And lastly:

If you lurk in the tags or on twitter long enough, you will inevitably come across a discussion of whether these books invoke the Bury Your Gays trope. Frankly, I think this is a lot of nonsense. I think that when you're dealing with a majority queer cast in a horror/mystery setting, even discussing that trope doesn't make sense. It doubly doesn't make sense because until we get the end of Alecto the Ninth, I don't think we actually know who is dead or not. But it does have both a majority queer cast and a body count and its fair and understandable that not everyone is up for that.

But its true that there is a canonical coffee shop AU.