#Asoiaf critical

[junewild]

new asoiaf/got worldbuilding discourse just dropped! check out the author’s blog for more thoughts on asoiaf, lotr, and more.

[spacerockfloater]

“The Targaryens/ Valyrians are not white supremacists and can’t be compared to European Colonisers!”

Oh? My bad then. I must have them confused with some other white folks who thought their appearance made them superior, brought whole continents to heel, exploited the lands of others for their own greed, destroyed whole civilizations and enslaved vulnerable people who unfortunately lacked the advanced weapons of mass destruction they possessed.

“Well, the Andals and the First Men were also colonisers, so they deserved it!”

No way! Are you actually telling me that every race has a history of violence because human nature itself is corrupt and we’re no better than animals fighting for their place on this earth? That’s so crazy and original. By the way, are you saying that people deserved to get colonised and enslaved because they were fighting other people in order to survive? Are you suggesting these “savages” should have been contained by the righteous white folks who came there to better their lives? Not to mention that the Andals and the First Men came to Westeros 12,000 and 6,000 years ago respectively, while the Targaryens attacked Westeros barely 130 years ago (literally just 3 - 4 generations) from the Dance of the Dragons? So are you comparing the morality of the people who migrated here, who were so primitive that barely even possessed weapons of steel, with that of the most advanced civilization ever built in the ASOIAF universe? That’s so interesting! It’s almost as if the Andals and the First Men didn’t know any better until it was too late and were trying to find a land that could accommodate their millions of people, so they were essentially fighting for survival, whereas the Targaryens who came from a race that had evolved philosophically, politically, academically and technologically wise, possessed enough wealth and land to sustain their little family, yet still chose to go to war against the land that nurtured them out of pure greed! Hmmm. Do you also believe that the Greeks had it coming when they were enslaved by the Ottomans and should just let go of the past because it’s been so long since they regained their freedom (barely 200 years ago btw, after 4 centuries of slavery), because their Ancient Ancestral Tribes migrated to Greece and conquered the land 3,500 years ago, a little after the age of bronze? No? Then you might see why that kind thinking is flawed.

Stop defending these inbred bastards with your full chest. We get it. They look badass. We all have a fave war criminal but all of the Targs need to be put to the sword, along with their fucking lizards. Purposely denying the parallels between the Targaryens/ Valyrians and the Colonisers/ Conquerors of our world screams white saviour complex.

[valkyriepegusus]

As much as I want GRRM to finish and publish Winds of Winter, honestly I can’t even blame him for not being in any sort of rush to do so.

If I were him, and I spent like half my life writing bible sized books— with thousands of pages of additional material that is primarily focused on how the mistreatment of women and the concept of purity culture is extremely destructive and harmful, why heredity monarchies are dangerous, and how biased misogynistic men will manipulate history, only for people to unironically support male primogeniture, be proudly “bastardphobic”, rank characters based on their ability to fight, and sympathize with slavers. I would genuinely just not finish the series as a punishment like I don’t even blame him for not being eager to publish more content just for people to grossly misconstrue.

[greenaswildfire]

Wait, wait... tb supporters are upset at Jace for the simple fact that he dared to question the effects that Rhaenyra's actions would have on him?

Like, his motives are legit if you ask me, and I'm not even TB! it's a pity that he only realized this now, when yk... the other side has been aware of this from the start.

Sooo... people are not actual TB, they're only team Rhaenyra, apparently?

The cracks starting to show up~...

[duxbelisarius]

The Velaryon Blockade or, How Not to Fight a War at Sea

Greetings and Salutations! After many months since completing the Military Analysis series, and having watched Season 2 of House of the Dragon (surely one of the shows of all time), I've returned to do some further analysis of the war of the Dance. I may end up including this entry in a subsequent re-write of the original analysis series, but I'm currently in the middle of working on a Daeron fanfic and wanted to write this to get my juices flowing. Without further ado, onto the main event: The Blockade of the Gullet (WARNING: Spoilers for HOTD and F&B; this is gonna be a long one!)

Analyzing the blockade of the Gullet or the Velaryon Blockade, as portrayed in Fire and Blood and House of the Dragon, requires tackling the subjects of how King's Landing is fed and whether such a blockade is feasible given the technology available to the setting. I'll start with the provisioning of King's Landing since the show made a big deal out of it, and it has implications for Fire and Blood's portrayal of the Dance.

The idea of a blockade of the Gullet leading to food shortages and near-starvation in King's Landing is a non-starter, since it is supported neither by the ASOIAF books or the show Game of Thrones. In the former case, we know that House Tyrells support for Renly leads to the Roseroad being closed and near famine conditions in KL, as noted by Tyrion in A Storm of Swords:

The mob loved Margaery so much they were even willing to love Joffrey again. She had belonged to Renly, the handsome young prince who had loved them so well he had come back from beyond the grave to save them. And the bounty of Highgarden had come with her, flowing up the roseroad from the south. The fools didn't seem to remember that it had been Mace Tyrell who closed the roseroad to begin with, and made the bloody famine. (ASOS, Tyrion VIII)

GoT retained this thread in Season 2 and returned to the subject of the Reach supplying KL with the 'Loot Train Battle' in Season 7.

Looked at more broadly, there are three sources of food that KL can access which render the Gullet completely redundant: Firstly, there is the Crownlands themselves, which should be accessible to KL by road or by boat via Blackwater Bay; there's the Reach, which is the most agriculturally abundant of all the Seven Kingdoms, although the main artery of this supply really should be the Mander river and not the Roseroad; and finally we have the Riverlands, which ought to be more important of a source for food since goods could reach KL from there entirely by boat or barge thanks to the Blackwater Rush and the God's Eye lake. Regardless, access to these areas means that little if any food provisions should be required to pass through the Gullet to support the capital, and this creates problems for the show and the books.

Leaving aside how the Blockade in the show is rendered useless, there is a massive plot hole for the Dance created by acknowledging this information. Prior to Criston Cole's Crownlands Campaign, most of that region, most of the Reach and all of the Riverlands have sworn fealty to Rhaenyra. Even if rationing was introduced and every source of food in the city were exploited, KL is still cut off from it's main food providers and this fact should have been addressed by the councils of either faction. Rhaenyra's allies were capable of cutting off the city's food supply and their armies could have come together to lay siege to the city. The only real obstacles they would face are Vhagar and Sunfyre, since Borros Baratheon and the Stormlands vanish from the narrative following Luke's death.

On the other hand, Aegon should have seized upon this threat to push for immediate action given his impatience with Otto's letter writing, the only payoff for which is the Triarchy's attack on the Gullet at the start of the next year. Aemond already secured the Baratheons, Tyland guarantees the Westerlands' support, and Ormund is effectively alone in supporting Aegon's cause in the Reach. As it turns out, neither faction is cognizant of this specific vulnerability of the capital at this time or later on in the Dance. When living conditions deteriorate under Rhaenyra, her tax policy is blamed rather than the fact that Cole's campaign should have negatively affected Crownlands agriculture; the Reach is rapidly switching sides thanks to Daeron; Daemon left the Riverlands in the hands of his army and those of the Lannisters, Aemond and Cole, with devastating consequences for the land and people; and finally, that the onset of winter should be having a negative effect on the food supply of the the Kingdoms.

It also needs to be stressed that for KL to rely on overseas shipments for the majority if not entirety of it's food supply, it would require the Targaryen monarchy to possess far greater governmental and military resources than they are given by George. Looking at Rome from the Middle Republic onwards and the Eastern Roman Empire prior to the Arab invasions, we can see that grain shipments helped to sustain far greater cities than King's Landing in Rome and Constantinople. In both cases though, they could rely on a hinterland for local food markets (Italy for Rome, Thrace/modern day Bulgaria for Constantinople) and possessed almost overwhelming naval supremacy which ensured the security of the seas. Rome could reliably access Sicily, North Africa, and Egypt for its grain needs, and Constantinople could do likewise with Anatolia, Egypt, the Black Sea basin and later Sicily and North Africa as well.

Ships bound for KL from the Reach would have to sail the treacherous waters and barren coast of southern Dorne, brave storms and pirates in the Stepstones, and risk further storms off the coast of the Stormlands, and this is without considering how dangerous the transit would be during years long autumns and winters. Essosi shipments have the same problem but with the added wrinkle that the crown would have to pay for them, whereas Roman grain shipments were often provided by collecting taxes in kind rather than cash from farmers in Egypt and North Africa. This alone would automatically elevate House Lannister above the Targaryens as the foremost house in the Seven Kingdoms, given their access to nigh-infinite gold deposits. This is all to say that the premise of the Gullet Blockade starving out KL is utterly preposterous, which makes it completely unsurprising that Ryan Condal and Sara Hess chose to run with it!

By contrast, the blockade attempted in F&B was meant to put pressure on the Greens by cutting off all trade to the capital, preventing merchants from reaching the city or leaving it. The foreign and domestic merchants trapped in Blackwater Bay are among the loudest voices criticizing Aegon and his leadership, which was seemingly the aim of Corlys Velaryon. Unfortunately for George's plot, close examination of the development of naval warfare in the Medieval and Early Modern Periods (c.500-1500 and c.1500-1800 respectively), the very periods George has derived his naval technology and ship designs from, indicate that the blockade of the Gullet makes no sense militarily. I arrived at my conclusion about the Blockade after consulting John H. Pryor and Elizabeth M. Jeffries excellent book The Age of the Dromon: The Byzantine Navy c.500-1204, with further insight provided by X users SzablaObr2023 and the "Orc Logistics Guy" himself, Professor Bret Devereaux.

The most fundamental problem with the Gullet Blockade is that it's the wrong kind of blockade to attempt within the setting; historically, there have been two types of blockade attempted in war: Close and Distant. Close blockades were the most common in pre-modern times, and involved cutting off naval traffic from a region or area (typically a port) with ships posted within sight of the coastline. Distant blockades aim to cut off traffic to a much larger area by posting ships at sea far from the coastline of the intended target. The Velaryons are attempting the latter kind by controlling the waters between Dragonstone and Massey's Hook, to prevent any ships from entering or leaving Blackwater Bay and thereby isolating King's Landing.

The forces available to Corlys Velaryon are not insignificant: we know that Alyn Velaryon sailed against the Stepstones in 133 AC with 60 war galleys, 30 longships, and over 100 cogs and great cogs, to which we can add the 7 warships that escorted the Gay Abandon in 129-130 AC. Increasing this fleet by a third and rounding up to account for the losses suffered in the Battle of the Gullet gives the Velaryon Fleet at least 270 ships at the outset of the Dance, potentially as high as 300. By comparison, the Redwyne Fleet in 300 AC possesses 200 warships, about equal to the Carthaginian fleet at the outset of the First Punic War and larger than any fleet used by Athens against Sparta during the Peloponnesian War (see this video from 15:27 onward).

Based on Alyn's order of battle, it appears that the Velaryon Fleet was evenly split between oared warships and pure sailing vessels, which presents a problem for the Gullet Blockade. While oared and sailing vessels could maintain a close blockade, the former are completely unsuited for a distant blockade due to their logistical requirements and seaworthiness. Close blockades were often used to cut off a port or narrow stretch of water in support of a siege by land forces; an excellent historical example is the Battle of Actium in 31 BC, when the army and fleet of Gaius Octavian trapped Mark Antony's forces in the Ambracian Gulf. Closeness to the coast and the friendly armies stationed there ensured that oared ships had access to food supplies and more importantly, fresh water. Pryor and Jeffries estimate that each member of a Byzantine rowing crew required a minimum of 8 liters of fresh water per day; a Dromon with 108 rowers would thus need 864 liters per day and 1000 liters or one tonne if the marines and officers are included (adding a second crew of rowers would almost double that amount). Mediterranean war galleys of the Medieval and Early Modern Periods had storage for only 4-8 tonnes of fresh water on board, making accessible fresh water sources a sine qua non for operations of any length.

The other factor rendering oared warships unsuitable for distant blockade duties is their seaworthiness, which Pryor and Jeffries discuss at length:

if the wind rose to Beaufort Scale Four-Five (16-17 knots) ... That would raise waves of around 4.75 feet, 1.45 metres. All galleys at all times were designed to cut through the water rather than to ride the waves and such a wind, which is just a “moderate” to “fresh” breeze on the Beaufort Scale, nothing out of the ordinary, would send waves washing over the deck of any dromon. Even if the wind were astern, she would still be forced to run for the coast. If the wind were ahead, it would be worse because that would mean that the ship was attempting to beat to windward and therefore would be heeling over with one gunwale continuously under water." ... Scale Seven winds would raise seas up to 13.5 feet (4.115 metres) and no dromon would stand a chance of continuing its voyage in such conditions. The authors of the Olympias project have concluded that a trieres [Trireme] would be swamped in waves above 0.85 metres, and we believe that in all probability a dromon would have been also. ... However, galleys were simply not designed to be sailed and throughout history they were always notoriously poor sailers. Because their lack of deep keels meant that they made excessive leeway when beating into the wind, because their shallow draft and low freeboard meant that they could not heel under sail very much, because their narrow beam and low depth in hold meant that their hulls did not have the structural strength to carry a large press of sail, and because their extreme length:beam ratio and lateen sails meant that they carried pronounced weather helm, constantly griping, the bows coming up into the wind, galleys were always notorious for poor upwind performance under sail. That is nothing to be wondered at for they were not designed to do that ... Moreover, a heel under sail of a mere ten degrees or so would put the lower rims of the lower oar ports at the flat water line and at that point it is highly questionable whether the oar sleeves would have prevented water from entering the hull, even if they were tied off. (Age of the Dromon, pg. 336-338)

Velaryon war galleys and longships would need to stay close to Cracklaw Point, Massey's Hook, Driftmark and Dragonstone to be of any assistance to the Blockade, although with the rough seas and weather of autumn and winter even this would be a doubtful prospect. Corlys would have to rely upon the cogs and great cogs of the Velaryon Fleet to conduct the blockade; Devereaux and Szabla noted that sailing vessels are capable of conducting distant blockades, as demonstrated by Britain's Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars. They also note that conducting such a blockade entailed problems all its own:

A distant blockade with sailing vessels still required significant logistical support, a well developed naval command structure and bureaucracy, and only began to be attempted centuries after the High and Late Middle Ages when the Cog was widely used.

Even if we leave these issues aside, the Gullet Blockade still has another serious problem: Communications. Based on a distance map of Westeros, the distance between Crackclaw Point and Sharp Point appears to be c.125 miles while the length of the Gullet proper from Dragonstone to Sharp Point may be 100 miles or less. Meleys is the only dragon known to have supported the Blockade and seems not to have been replaced after her death at Rook's Rest. Over 100 cogs and 1 dragon at best would be the only forces capable of patrolling the Gullet to any effect, while the need for ships to resupply the blockade and to act as reserves to relieve ships from the Blockade line drastically reduces the amount of ships that could patrol the Gullet. Pryor and Jeffries' assessment of Byzantine visual signaling suggests that communications within the Blockade would be almost impossible:

The masthead height of the foremast of a standard dromon as we have reconstructed it was only around 10.65 metres above sea level. There were, admittedly, larger dromons; however, for what follows a couple of metres more of masthead height would make no difference to the conclusions reached. With a foremast height of 10.65 metres above sea level, the theoretical horizon of a lookout at the masthead would have been only around 11.8 kilometres. Theoretically, the peak of a lateen sail 21 metres above sea level could be seen a further 51.7 kilometres away but, of course, no man could see 63.5 kilometres with unaided sight. In all probability, around 15-20 kilometres would have been the limit of visibility from the masthead of a dromon. Scout ships could not, therefore, patrol a space more than 30-40 kilometres in advance of a fleet and probably no more than 30, since they were always said to have been smaller than standard dromons and would have had lower mastheads. In fact, in order to be able to actually read signals with unaided eyesight and communicate them back to the fleet, distances must have been even less than this. Syrianos Magistros advised that a fleet should always proceed with scout ships out ahead, up to six milia or so. Two scout ships should be 6 milia ahead and another two should be between them and the fleet to relay any messages. Six milia was only around 8 kilometres. If the forward scout ships then had a range of visibility of another 8-16 kilometres, then the real maritime space that could be observed was only around 25 kilometres at best. (Age of the Dromon, pg. 388-389).

Compared to the Gullet, the Strait of Otranto is 100 km wide (c.69 miles) while the distance between Crete and Rhodes is 180 km (c.112 miles) with the island of Karpathos in the middle; neither the Byzantines nor contemporary Mediterranean powers could control entry and exit through such space.

It might be argued that spyglasses, known in ASOIAF as Myrish Lenses or a Myrish Eye, could offer a solution to such long distances; unfortunately these devices are only produced in Myr, and of the three mentioned in the main books only one is used onboard a ship. The lenses used by Maesters Luwin and Aemon are large enough to require a tripod; the only one mentioned aboard a ship is a collapsible Eye carried by a Myrish captain whose ship is taken by Victarion en route to Slavers Bay. Even if Myrish lenses were available to some degree, it's unlikely they could overcome the problems of distance and the conditions at sea.

Writing about the War of 1812, Frederick Leiner states that a lookout "perched on the masthead, 80 or 100 feet above the main deck, and equipped with a spyglass, with the horizon perhaps 20 miles off ... might be able to discern a larger warship-like frigate perhaps as far as 15 miles distant, if the weather were clear and sea conditions allowed." 15 miles or 24 km is impressive compared to the 8-16 km of the Byzantine scout ships mentioned by Pryor and Jeffries, but the heights of Leiner's masts are more than double that of a Dromon and taller still than a cogs. Even a spyglass from two centuries after they were first introduced would not greatly enhance the vision of a Velaryon lookout, and the notoriously poor weather and seas of the Westerosi autumn and winter would certainly counteract it. With ships being kept off station to ferry supplies and act as reserves, the area needing to be patrolled would make visual signaling highly impractical.

To quote Pryor and Jeffries once more, "Expeditionary objectives could frequently be achieved best by preserving one’s forces intact and actually avoiding battle since naval warfare was essentially amphibious warfare whose purpose was to secure control of terrestrial objectives rather than to attempt to control maritime space (Age of the Dromon, 388)." Using the Velaryon Fleet to support the Black armies rather than attempting an exercise in futility by blockading the Gullet, would have applied pressure to Aegon and the Greens more effectively while being consistent with the setting that George created and its inspirations.

The most obvious way for the Velaryon Fleet to support the Blacks would be through transporting Northern and Vale troops south of the Neck and the Mountains of the Moon, to take the fight to Aegon rather sitting back passively once Daemon rallied the Riverlords and the Blacks in the Reach marched on Oldtown. Considering how swiftly both of those armies were raised, it makes no sense why the Vale could not at least send troops to assist Rhaenyra in the Crownlands. Another option and one which I proposed in part 12 and the conclusion of my military analysis series, would be to send the Velaryon Fleet south against the Stormlords.

Otto Hightower believed that Tarth would support Rhaenyra's cause, and Lord Buckler and Lady Fel were both executed by Aegon for refusing to swear fealty to him instead of Rhaenyra. The bulk of the Crownlands supports Rhaenyra prior to Criston Cole's campaign, and Felwood and Bronzegate are located south of the Crownlands astride the Kingsroad to Storm's End. The Wendwater flows through the Stormlands and Crownlands before emptying into Blackwater Bay; assuming the river is even partially navigable, this could allow shallow drafted boats to move troops and supplies into the lower Kingswood and prevent Aegon and Borros from aiding one another. Naval operations along the coast would be risky given the arrival of autumn, but the weather rarely affects the plot of the Dance if the author doesn't want it to. Tarth would serve as a base for the Velaryon ships to resupply and further raid the coast or land troops and the Blacks in the Reach could threaten the border, with the Cockleswhent and Blueburn rivers potentially serving as supply arteries for an invasion from the west.

There are also compelling political reasons for the Blacks and particularly the Velaryons to attack the Stormlands: It would punish Borros Baratheon for breaking his father's oath to Rhaenyra, esp. since his father supported Rhaenys and Laenor in 101 and Rhaenys is currently part of the Black council; it could be portrayed as vengeance for the death of Lucerys Velaryon over Shipbreaker Bay; and it could potentially force the Greens out of King's Landing. Aemond's betrothal to Floris Baratheon would give him some obligation to support his ally and future good-father against their common foe, and failure to give aid would endanger the Baratheon alliance. Aegon's only other allies are in the Westerlands and the Honeywine valley of the southern Reach, and without the Baratheons he is completely surrounded by his enemies. Whether Aegon, Aemond or both set out with an army to aid Borros, King's Landing's garrison and perhaps one dragonrider are all that would be left to defend against an attack by Daemon and the Riverlords and/or the Black houses of the Reach.

These scenarios offer a more effective employment for the Velaryon Fleet, but there is a way to retain the blockade while ensuring that the ending of the Dance remains relatively the same (Rhaenyra and Aegon are dead, Aegon III and Jaehaera marry, most of the dragons are dead, etc.) by acknowledging that the blockade is a poor strategy. It could start by allowing Mysaria's spies to discover the fate of the Royal Treasury, with ships carrying 75% of the treasury out of Blackwater Bay without the awareness of the Velaryon Fleet. It can even be implied that Larys Strong leaked this information to play both sides and drive a wedge between Rhaenyra and her Hand; this pays off as Rhaenyra blames Corlys and the Velaryons for this embarassment and imposes the Blockade against Corlys' judgement. The blockade serves as a way for her to get back at Aegon while asserting her royal authority after her claim was usurped.

The Velaryon Fleet is thus forced to commit the entirety of its forces to a task that Corlys, his vassals, and his captains and crews know is beyond their means to carry out successfully. Many galleys could be lost to the stormy seas and their crews drowned, while the cogs must endure the same weather and miserable conditions in pursuit of a pointless task. Morale declines steadily as many ships desert completely, turning to piracy or becoming merchantmen and sellsails in Essos, which further undermines the blockade. Tensions between Rhaenyra and Corlys would already be high before Rhaenys' death and could reach a crisis point after the Battle of the Gullet. The way the battle plays out in F&B could likewise be retained if the mistakes made by the Blacks are acknowledged, being the failure of naval or dragon patrols to detect the approach of the Triarchy Fleet. Gyldan could point out that both Prince Jacaerys and Lord Corlys are at fault for the disaster, but that Rhaenyra solely blames the Velaryons. I would even go a step further: Medieval and Early Modern naval combat relied heavily on boarding actions, excluding cannons since they're not present in George's setting. With many galleys and ships being entangled in these close-quarters bouts, it would not be surprising if the dragonriders set fire to Velaryon ships by mistake and further contributed to the deterioration of Velaryon support.

With many officers and crews having lost their families and homes in the Triarchy attack, this would present a perfect opportunity for Vaemond Velaryon's sons, Daeron and Daemion, and his nephews the 'Silent Five' to take action if they were not already involved in the events of the Dance. With Larys possibly assisting them, they could begin organizing a fleet-wide mutiny against Rhaenyra and the Black Council, which would take place after Corlys is arrested. Addam and Alyn would flee to Dragonstone and Driftmark, the former to seek Baela and Moondancer's help and the latter to rally ships and crews to help his father. The mutineers capture Alyn while Addam finds Moondancer dead, Baela imprisoned, and Dragonstone in the hands of Aegon II, with a battle ensuing between Sunfyre and Seasmoke which leads to Aegon's injuries and Addam fleeing the bay worse for wear. Heading to Maidenpool and finding that Nettles has fled and Daemon and Aemond are fallen in battle, Addam could then rally what forces he can for a suicide mission against Tumbleton with the aim of killing Daeron and the Betrayers and mauling their army before it can join Aegon at King's Landing.

This sets up how I would fix Second Tumbleton, by Addam showing up to find Daeron already battling with the Betrayers and the army divided. Knowing that neither Aegon and Alicent nor Alyn, Baela and Corlys will survive if the Betrayers take the capital, Addam and Daeron join forces and rout the Betrayers army, with all four dragonriders being killed in the battle. This change is important if Jaehaera's death is retained, since there needs to be strong foundations for reconciling the Greens and Blacks. Addam and Daeron the Daring's sacrifice gives both factions heroes that they can memorialize and honour together; Daenaera's marriage to Aegon III is also helped by her father and uncle having been actively involved in Rhaenyra's downfall in support of Aegon II. A final touch I would add would be for Alyn to lead a counter-mutiny following Aegon II's death which leads to deaths of Daeron Velaryon and three of the 'Silent Five'; Alyn could swear an oath to the dying Daeron to look after his daughter Daenaera now that both her parents will be dead. This magnanimous act by Alyn and the respect the Velaryon Fleet has for him could inform Daemion's decision to break with the remaining 'Silent Five' and support Alyn's claim as Corlys' heir.

If you've made it to the end of this wall of text, I commend you! For those that want a TL;DR: The Show's blockade is nonsense; the Book blockade is unworkable as a strategy; nonetheless, the blockade and the Velaryon Fleet can still play an important role in the story if the aforementioned flaws are acknowledged. Thanks for reading, and I'll catch you on the flip side!

[rhaenin-time]

I don't even need George RR Martin to FINISH the series.

I just need him to descend upon the fandom, god style, and put an end to all the MISOGYNY, all the bigotry that his writing is clearly trying to say is WRONG, and make it clear his work is:

Fantasy, and therefore highly metaphorical in a complex way that goes beyond magic = bad

A subversion of certain tropes, literary conventions, and views on 'history' that we take for granted, but not written to be a subversion of 'expectations'

A criticism of European feudalism, patriarchy, and the way we view "default" history that often uses a 'newcomer' fire family to show the harm it does to those who assimilate into that system, and an ice family that prides themselves on not changing to show the harm it does to those who don't bend. Not an endorsement of the system 'ruined' by the foreign dragon degenerates and their mAd QuEeNs

That's it.

[horizon-verizon]

Daemyra is a victim of George RR Martin's perversion for pubescent girls and adult men, just like Dany/Drogo.

He didn't have to write 31 year old Daemon taking 14 year old Rhaenyra to a brothel the same way he didn't have to make Dany the 13 year old child bride of 30 year old Drogo.

George has serious issues, it would be wrong of us to ignore them.

*EDITED POST* (6/25/24)

Anon talks abt this post.

True that GRRM's often a creep with some relationships. I'm not saying that that this isn't a real problem in real life (30 yr olds are with teens) or that this wouldn't give more room to people can take as justification of real events of grooming.

I'm saying it's not exactly 1-1 with real life conditions and thus that is not THE story being told, as...arguably flawed as GRRM makes that so.

So to quote la-pheacienne:

I'm ok if you adress this as a meta commentary. What I mean by a meta commentary here is a commentary on the choices of the author himself and whether these choices are wise/unwise, or if there is a pattern that should be adressed. All of this can be discussed in a meta commentary. Dead Ladies Club was one for example, in a different subject though. Once you're in universe though, everything you included in your meta commentary no longer applies. You need to throw it out of the window. Now you're engaging with the story as it is, which means that you accept the story as it is. You may not like the fact that Daemon is older than Rhaenyra and her oncle, but you need to accept the fact that in universe, their relationship was a normal, consensual relationship between two people who loved eachother. If you have a problem with that, you can either 1) NOT engage in the story, or 2) bitch about the author, but nothing you can do will ever change the story itself. 1. Example A : "God that GRRM is SO creepy with all this incest and age differences in every single couple he creates, enough" (meta commentary, valid). Example B : "Daemon is SUCH a problematic character driven by toxic masculinity and his relationship with Rhaenyra is deeply toxic, unhealthy and imbalanced" (distortion of the story, invalid). 2. Example A : "It was really unnecessary to present a 15 yo girl being kidnapped by a 20something married man with kids as this romantic tragic love story, I don't like it" (meta commentary, valid) Example B :"Rhaegar was a monster who groomed Lyanna, probably raped her, imprisoned her in a tower and let her die, it's a disgusting relationship" (distortion of the story, invalid) In both these scenarios, the common denominator is the complete alteration of the story the author wanted to tell.

And the story intended was basically this (by rhaenin-time, not me):

Basically, investigate the situation at hand and then weigh what the story is vs what it should be and how/why. These are two different things. Doesn't mean that you have to endorse the age gap itself or like Daemyra, no one asked for people to like this ship. That's not important to me.

[alsethwisson]

If I was to choose single most f-ed up thing in Asoiaf, it would be whole thing about Danny Flint song. I have taken folklore studies, I know European folklore(s) well enough to confidently say: it’s total bullshit and pure rapexploitation on author’s part.

Folklore has its universal rules, universal narratives it uses to weave songs and stories. A woman pretending to be a man is one of those, and not once does it end with rape, much less gang rape. It has four possible outcomes: never discovered, discovered and rewarded, dead on discovery (usually via birth) or discovered and killed. Usually the latter is framed as defiance on her part - she goads her killer, shaming him and emasculating, and he is the villain of the story, a weakling unable to bear being bested by a woman.

If we play by the rules of folklore logic, Danny Flint would end either with her made single female lord-commander, or her killer being exposed and punished and she hailed as a hero.

Rape is never the endgame in folklore. It is only used either passingly in historical songs among other enemy atrocities, or as a starting point of revenge ballads. Never. and I can’t stress it enough, is rape used as comeuppance for a woman. Death is.

You can say “oh, but the song is not about rape, rape is what really happened”, but nope, the song is source material for those talking about this story. Just another grrm’s rapexploitation moment. Not the first, neither the last.

[bohemian-nights]

I’m kind of curious what’s your take on the whole Daenera situation?

Sigh. There is a part of this fandom(I’m looking at you Team Green) who straight up hates Daenera’s guts and view her as unnecessary to the narrative since it ruins the union of the two factions. I disagree with this….in part.

I think Daenera is needed due to house Velaryon was treated. The show has treated them deplorably, but even in the books, they get a pretty sh*tty hand dealt to them(they never rise to their former glory).

So Ser Vaemond having the last laugh from the afterlife by having his granddaughter become queen is a satisfying conclusion in my opinion.

No here is the part where I agree with Team Green. I don’t think Jaehaera should’ve died. I think GRRM should’ve kept what he started which is to have Jaehaera and Aegon unite Team Green and Team Black instead of having Daenera come into the picture as the mother of Aegon’s children.

This brings me to a character who I think is totally irrelevant(and stands in the way of House Velaryon getting the ultimate last laugh) Lara Rogare.She’s the one who should’ve died or not existed in the first place. She’s a rando. She does not connect with the Damces narrative (family against family) cause she's a rando.

Her relationship with Viserys is creepy as hell(her father held him hostage). She just has no real purpose in this story other than to pop out some kids and then abandon Viserys(I’m sorry to anyone who likes her, but pick a better character to like).

Daenaera should be Viserys Jaehaera. That’s a better story.

So Jaehaera lives. She and Aegon have babies. Lara dies before she can give Viserys any children. Daenaera marries Viserys. They have babies who will eventually inherit the throne. Ser Vaemond gets the last laugh. The Greens and the Blacks are united. The Dance has come full circle. Everyone is happy(sorta)🤷🏽‍♀️

I’m actually hoping that this is the one thing HOTD retcons. Lara really doesn’t need to exist(especially since the boys have been aged down). Just keep Jae and Aegon together and have Daenaera marry Viserys.

[sayruq]

1/2: Reading about Mathilda and the Anarchy, it drives to the point how dirty Martin did to Rhaenyra and the other Dance Queens, but particularly Rhaenyra. Like he made Daemon and suddenly turned it into a redo of Cersei/Jaime/Brienne (the novel dynamics) but with Dragons and more inbreeding: incompetent vicious used-to-be beautiful tyrannical queen who is portrayed as gaining weight and being a political inept, the 'badass' rogue relative lover who finds redemption with ambiguous bond with a

2/2: not classically beautiful warrior/tomboy teenage girl (Brienne IS 17, isn't she?) he wouldn't have considered beautiful by his standards. It's like copy/paste with less layered characterization and only circumstantial background change because dragons and Anarchy setting instead of War of the Roses. Show Rhaenyra is a little bland but I hope she won't get this sexist interpretation. Say what you want of HBO, but they gave Cersei justice more than Martin did, IMO.

He can't help himself, even when he is commenting on misogyny he has to undermine his own commentary. Rhaenyra is treated like Lysa in the books - reduced to negative traits and they're both unreasonably obsessed with male characters who are more interested in teenagers. They have the same 'gaining weight while a rival remains thin and beautiful' nonsense given to them. We don't see much about how Rhaenyra (the crown princess) rules Dragonstone which would explain how Aegon was able to take it because this is the nonsense we're given instead.

What's worse is that Rhaenyra v Aegon II is clearly meant to foreshadow Aegon VI v Daenerys. I believe Rhaenyra is Aegon VI's historical mirror (older, doesn't use dragons during the war, marries an older spouse, Rhaenyra's oath ceremony before Aegon II is born = Aegon VI's coronation before Daenerys arrives, greater support among the lords, nominal heir before their rival was born, etc.) though she's not an exact copy (Aegon VI will have greater support amongst the smallfolk than Rhaenyra) so imagine how it will look when Aegon is able to have diplomatic and military success while Rhaenyra is shown to be less capable than her sheltered teen son.

The thing is the show fails Rhaenyra in a different way. She's now politically inept and very passive, relying on her father, uncle and sons to act for her. I don't think Rhaenyra will go to battle like some Green stans. I think she'll remain in Dragonstone being very passive because war and politics are for men only. It will look equally bad as the show continues to offload her actions onto Daemon, leaving Rhaenyra playing an even smaller role in the success and failure of Team Black. Meaning people will have less sympathy for her when it all falls apart because Rhaenyra would not be allowed to do anything to try and prevent or cause it (because Alicent won't do anything either).

She won't order the executions of her enemies and they'll emphasise how taking the treasury will leave Rhaenyra with little choice which isn't bad on its own but this will be yet another instance where Rhaenyra doesn't get to act. The problem wasn't just raising taxes on the city, it was hosting lavish feasts. Rhaenyra consistently has a PR management problem and this causes people to hate her. But in the show, they'll hate her despite the fact that she will not do anything to gain their hatred (or at least it will be someone else's fault) and after many eps of Rhaenyra being passive, I just don't see people caring.

There will come a point where Rhaenyra will frustrate even the people who like her. Say what you will about how GoT handled the Starks but they played a part in their tragedy, which added to their likeability.

Imagine people's reactions when Rhaenyra does nothing while the dragons and her son are killed; meanwhile, a disabled Aegon II ends the war singlehandedly despite gaining new injuries.

[thesilverlady]

Hi! So I've been thinking about this for some time now, it seems to me like GRRM often exagerates the misogyny women suffered in medieval times.

It's not that women were happy and living in utopia but from reading about different historical societies and time periods in comparison to what he is writing it looks super exaggerated and women often suffer a lot more than what it would be like in comparison to real life.

Maybe it's just me and I don't want to sound mean..but it's starting to feel weird...for example there's a lot of women that have died from the birthing bed, a big number and although it happened it wasn't like every hour a woman died giving birth to a child. Another thing that bothers me it's when really young characters start having sex (Aemma, Daenerys, Viserys II....) It's super bizarre since yes of course women tended to be younger but and I'm pretty sure that no one was advising to have sex with a 13 year old child (there are cases I'm sure but normally it was frowned upon). Even politically women are more restrained ... I don't know maybe I'm seeing gohsts where there are none 😂.

it's definitely a valid subject to criticize and it's been something I've been conflicted over myself.

grrm is generally a. fantastic author; he knows how to write characters, worldbuilding, dialogue and how to play with themes.

With that being said, I can totally understand your feelings on the subject.

On the one hand, you're right, the whole "died in childbirth" is. just a very convenient, easy way to get rid off a female character while adding a tragedy to the mix. On the other hand.... some of these characters were simply not meant to be around.

I think he has definitely tried to add some elements around childbirth death to make it slightly different each time. Like, in f&b the difference between Alyssa Velaryon and Daella Targaryen who both died in childbirth is that Alyssa was at a quite old age and had complications from her pregnancy and her husband and maesters completely disregarded her health and basically sacrificed her to get that child out (for context: her dead was basically what Aemma had in the show. they copied it from that part of the story) In her tragic death, we see how shitty her husband was and the power maesters have over life. We do get her other daughter, Rhaena, rightfully calling out Rogar Baratheon's callous actions.

With Daella her death., while similar is a bit different because her issue was that she was waaay too young. Her mother, Alysanne felt guilty after her death and even wondered if it would have been so much for Daella to stay a child a while longer before pushing her to marry.

Both fall.victims to the patriarchy that is established in Westeros, in the belief that a woman's duty is to be a wife and a mother and a childbirth death while sad is noble. I won't analyze each childbirth death we see 'cause that would take forever - but I do think they all kinda serve a theme that has been existing all throughout the asoiaf series.

As for the age.... listen, i know it's uncomfortable for everyone but I think that's purposely done. Later in the series dany does think. of her old 13 yo self as a child so George doesn't pretend that she wasn't.

Were her descriptions in the first book oversexualized? Sure

But as for the age factor, I study history and cultures at uni and you'd be surprised at the age range young girls were thought to be suited for marriage and childbirth. You gotta consider multiple ethinicies, cultures, social norms, and not to mention life expectancy which played a huge factor in this.

George takes inspiration for all of this. The series is not meant to be a realistic portrayal.

And while I constantly think about the pro and cons about the way George writes his female characters, i don't see enough prase nowadays about how he writes the vulnerability of girlhood, or motherly love, or the caging feeling of being a woman who lives in such a restraining society.

As a man George does a surprisingly amazing job at describing these feelings. And while, I definitely think we should be objective and consider the good, the bad and the ugly with how he writes woman, the good heavily outweigh the bad

[myimaginationplain]

imo, with the story being as incredibly sprawling & paced as it is, ASOIAF would probably be best served by being eight to nine books long rather than the seven GRRM is supposedly aiming for. Not that I'd expect that even in my dreams, because atp we'll be lucky to get even one more book out of him within the decade.

But I can't imagine it taking any less than an entire book for most of the major players to get into the positions they'll need to be in before the War for the Dawn. For example: Dany fiding her way out of the Dothraki Sea, putting down the slavers in Mereen once & for all, subsequently hauling ass out of Mereen with her army & heading towards Westeros. Her plot line alone will need a lot of time & page real estate to properly unfold, not even to mention the complicated predicaments other characters have been left in. And after that we're supposed to have, what, only one more book to establish brand new relationships (like Jon & Dany meeting, etc,) re-establish old ones (Starks reuniting,) get Cersei off the Iron throne somehow, AND fight the Others?

I genuinely can't imagine this series satisfyingly wrapping up in as few as two books (which is why in the grand scheme of things I think introducing (f)aegon & the Martell schemes as additional plotlines was a big mistake on GRRM's part, even if they're both really interesting & add texture to the world.)

[thecatsaesthetics]

I saw someone on twitter discussing Rhaegar, and other problematic elements of the series, and they basically said GRRM had no idea what trash Rhaegar was in the 90s when he first came up with the character but he probably is now aware of how awful literally everyone (except the targ stans) think Rhaegar is so when/if he ever gets to the part of the series where Martin explains the relationship he will have to do some serious damage control to 'fix' R/L.

They also said, which I fully agree with, that because he's taken 30 years to finish this series, social mores and cultural norms have shifted so much that a lot of plot points and characterizations he was probably planning are now deeply, deeply problematic whereas back in the 90s, the fantasy-reader audience the books were originally marketed towards would not have cared. Like you said, the post-me too era has brought forth a lot more awareness about grooming, age gaps, power imbalances, etc. I definitely think one of the reasons its difficult to finish the series is because GRRM is now aware of certain plot points he has been planning no longer being palatable and knowing he would get crucified for if he went forward with them. Like San/san was definitely something that was meant to be more romantic or sexual but the ages of the characters, lack of five year gap, and knowing people would rage at him if he made San/san canon in anyway means that romantic ship is over imo lol. Sa/ndor's love for Sa/nsa will be a lot more platonic and self-sacrificial going forward as opposed to romantic undertones.

For R/L though, I do wonder if GRRM telling HOTD writers to include the ice and fire prophecy in the show means that he will lean way more heavily into 'Well, ackshually, Rhaegar was saving the world it wasn't about wanting to fuck a teen he became infatuated with. Also, Elia was chill with it because Dornish(tm).' Basically, I can see Martin leaning way more heavily toward Rhaegar doing what he did to save humanity versus him not being able to keep it in his pants. But we'll see if/when the series is ever completed, which is a big if.

Sorry this is so long I'm putting it underneath:

I do agree that Martin came up with this series in the 90s and did not expect it to become such a cultural landmark. I am not sure he agrees Rhaegar is "awful" as Martin has said and done things within his book series that make me believe he does not see much wrong with a 16 year old running off with a 23 year old. I do think he always intended to add the magically bits in the story with Rhaegar and Lyanna but that they were suppose to be look at as the human incarnations of Ice and Fire and Jon being the offspring of that magic.

And even if Martin did realize after much discussion how problematic the Lyanna and Rhaegar situation is I don't think he would change it. The unfortunate truth is they are fundamental to the story. Not in a way where we need to see them, but they are similar to Paris and Helen. Without their actions the story doesn't exist, and without Rhaegar and Lyanna running off the story does not happen. Our world is reset.

And the book has expanded so much, including a list of characters Martin never intended for us to see, that it makes us really resent both Lyanna and Rhaegar as readers. All the while the narrative itself does not seem to be aware of how horrible the actions of them (especially Rhaegar) is. Adding the Aegon storyline in the book and if he doesn't turn out to be a fake and does end up dead and Jon ends up somehow having a "happy" ending it feels super insulting to Elia and the rest of the characters who suffered due to Rhaegar and Lyanna's actions.

The inclusion of the Ice and Fire prophecy in HOTD had nothing to do with Martin and more to do with the HOTD writers wanting to include a reason for why Viserys was choosing Rhaenyra. In the books Viserys is just a shitty king and has no reason at all for not naming Aegon after his birth. In the show it's hinted he believes the Ice and Fire prophecy would only be fulfilled under Rhaenyra's line.

As for what Martin will do with Elia, I really am not sure but he has said he will make it "complicated". I tend to think he wouldn't make Elia "okay" with it but he might have a situation where Elia believes her son is the Prince that was Promised and wants him to have his "Visenya". But I'm not sold on that just because I don't think Rhaegar would use Lyanna to get a Visenya, he would likely assume the child from Lyanna was the Prince that was Promised simply because of the "ice" connection.

But on the topic of why Martin hasn't finished the series. I have several thoughts:

 First, he's written himself into a nightmare. If you read A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons, they are interesting but they expand the plot in a way I've never seen done before. For any type of novel. He has multiple POVs with incredibly complex and interesting storylines, most of which aren't connected to the main plot. I don't know how he's going to handle closing all of those storylines within two books. I love Feast and Dance so much but as a writer I cannot image having to close all of those storylines.

Second, GOT took up so much time. In the first years GOT was airing Martin did a lot of media for the show, cons, and even wrote a whole episode up until season 5. That's a lot of work and it doesn't leave a lot of time to write and complete the story. Also once it became clear Martin wouldn't even complete Winds before the show closed I don't think he had the same motivation to write faster. Why not take his time? Plus D&D had clearly branched out from all the book storylines by season 4.

Third, the reaction to the ending of GOT (which were his intended endings) must have hurt. I cannot image a world where you as the writer of this series see people reacting so poorly to your intended ending (even if D&D butchered it) would not feel at least disappointment. People hated Villain Dany and her death (does matter if I love fallen Dany) and I 100% believe he's going there in the next book. He might be worried or concerned about the reaction. Martin has admitted that seeing fans discuss the series and figuring out things have made him want to change course. And that was back when the series was limited to forum discussions online. He had major news outlets discussing how "awful" Dany's ending was. That likely affected him and his writing.

[greenaswildfire]

Jace in this episode be like: if any bastard can ride a dragon what am I in this shitshow, mother? Just a pretty face or what?

The consequences of Rhaenyra's actions coming to bite her sons in the ass, and no one in TBiased saw this coming from miles away huh? lol

Who could have thought that Otto Hightower was right... Pretty face will not put you on the Iron throne, Prince Jacaerys, the succession changed the day your valyrian adoptive father sired his sons :)

[duxbelisarius]

Dune At Home: The First Dornish War, Part One

This is a project I've had on the backburner ever since I finished my Military Analysis of the Dance. I mentioned in my analysis of the Velaryon Blockade that I plan to rewrite the Dance series at some point, in light of the research and further reading I've done into the subject of pre-modern warfare. One can look at this new series focused on the First Dornish War as essentially a trial run for the rewrite, but my reasons for analyzing this war in particular go far beyond that.

The First Dornish War was the largest conflict fought by the Seven Kingdoms following unification, while its outcome cast a long shadow over the history of Westeros and the Targaryen Dynasty. There's Rhaenys' death and the affect it has on her family, the recurrent desire of future monarchs to conquer Dorne and succeed where Aegon failed, to say nothing of the way in which the events of the war have influenced and continue to influence the plot of the main ASOIAF books. While F&B only devotes 10 pages to the war as compared to the 200 taken up by the Dance, the importance of the First Dornish War far exceeds it's limited coverage, and we can probably expect to learn more about it in TWOW, ADOS, and the Aegon's Conquest series planned by HBO. This more than justifies analyzing the First Dornish War and the extent to which it is consistent with George's own worldbuilding and what we know about Medieval and Early Modern war.

This first part of the series will assess the Dornish worldbuilding, what information we have about its people, geography, environment and society as a whole. The purpose of doing this is to establish a baseline of what we can know or reasonably infer about Dorne from what the books tell us, which can then be compared to how Dorne is portrayed in F&B during the First Dornish War. I also recommend checking out the Dornish installments of the Politics of the Seven Kingdoms series written by the late Steven Attewell of Race for the Iron Throne; if you want a second opinion or more detail, his series is absolutely worth your while!

Atlas of Ice and Fire estimates that Dorne's size is approximately 328 472 square miles, using a similar process to TWOIAF editor Elio Garcia; this makes Dorne slightly smaller than Pakistan (340 509 square miles) and slightly larger than the former French Indochina (Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, c.290 000 square miles). Atlas estimates a population of c.3 million in Dorne at the time of the ASOIAF series with his calculations again using methods similar to Elio, but the population may easily be lesser or greater than these extrapolations. Unfortunately the demographics of Planetos are a mess at best, and Dorne's population and that of the Seven Kingdoms should in theory be much smaller at the time of the First Dornish War.

ADWD's map of the south and TWOIAF's map of Dorne identify 16 and 17 populated locations in Dorne respectively, excluding Ghaston Grey, the Tower of Joy, Vulture's Roost and the Water Gardens. 7 of these settlements are located in the Red Mountains, aka the Dornish Marches: Starfall, High Hermitage, Blackmont, Skyreach, Kingsgrave, Wyl and Yronwood. Dorne is divided into eastern and western halves south of the mountains, with the eastern half beginning in the hills around the source of the Vaith and Scourge rivers and extending to the Broken Arm, and Dorne's western half comprising mostly desert save for the sulfurous Brimstone River. The aforementioned maps show only two settlements in western Dorne, Sandstone and Hellholt, while the remaining 7-8 settlements are located in Eastern Dorne: Vaith, Salt Shore, Lemonwood, Sunspear, Ghost Hill, Godsgrace, The Tor and Planky Town. All of the settlements in eastern Dorne are located directly beside the Vaith, Scourge and Greenblood Rivers or to the north of them, save for Salt Shore on Dorne's southern coast.

These dispositions reflect what we know about the settlement patterns of Dorne's past from TWOIAF: the majority of the First Men settled in the Greenblood valley or the Red Mountains, with the Daynes, Fowlers and Yronwoods settling in the latter area and the Wades, Shells and many more settling by the former. Only the unnamed Lords of the Wells ventured into the western deserts, and these were a minority. Only with the arrival of the Andals do we know of named houses settling in the west, House Uller and Qorgyle, while the Martells, Allyrions, Jordaynes, Santagars and Vaiths settled in the east along the northern coast and in the river valleys. When the Rhoynar arrived in Dorne and finally settled they mainly stayed in the east near the coast and the river valleys, further cementing the Red Mountains and eastern Dorne as the most populous areas of the country.

The distribution of Dorne's population is also consistent with the information we have about it's geography and climate. George's inspirations for Dorne in this regard were Spain and Palestine, and Morocco also fits the bill, being regions where summers are hot and dry and winters are cool and wet. These areas also have the bulk of their population situated along the coast and in the major river valleys, which is again consistent with George's worldbuilding. More than three-quarters of the land south of the Red Mountains is arid wasteland according to TWOIAF, with the bulk of this land being flat save for the hills at the source of the Greenblood and it's tributaries, and a small mountain range between The Tor and Ghost Hill on Dorne's northern coast. Dorne's southern coast is some 400 leagues/c.1200 miles long according to Rodrick Harlaw, and is largely barren outside of Salt Shore with few sources of fresh water for passing ships to utilize.

It should also come as no surprise that Dorne's population distribution coincides with those areas with an abundance of fresh water, for consumption and agricultural purposes. Eastern Dorne is mostly scrubland with hard, rocky soil that relies heavily upon the Greenblood for irrigation; alongside the Brimstone and Torrentine, the Greenblood is the only river which does not dry up during any season. Potential sources of fresh water in the Red Mountains include the Torrentine and Wyl Rivers as well as an unnamed river that ends near Yronwood, alongside groundwater from wells and rain/meltwater collected from streams, springs and cisterns. Due to the Brimstone being sulfurous, fresh water in western Dorne comes primarily from wells, watering holes and oases.

The result of Dorne's varied geography, climate and population distribution a history of political division and the emergence of Dornish subcultures following Nymeria's wars. The Rhoynar arrived in Dorne less than 700 years before Aegon's Conquest, following the destruction of the Rhoynar Principalities by the Valyrian Freehold, prior to which the First Men and Andals had warred with each other and their Reacher and Stormlord neighbours for millenia. Nymeria and her people spent more than four years in the area of the Summer Sea before arriving in Dorne and allying with Mors Martell, and it took more than a decade to unify the Dornish lands. Four Dornish subcultures emerged in the centuries after the Rhoynar settled, known to us from the ASOIAF books and TWOIAF as the Stoney, Sandy and Salty Dornish, and the Orphans of the Greenblood.

The Orphans have a small population that lives on poleboats in the Greenblood valley and near Planky Town, and retain the language and gods of the Rhoynar, while the Salty Dornish live along the coast and retain some Rhoynar customs but have adopted the common tongue and the Faith of the Seven. The Sandy Dornish live in the deserts and the river valleys, and are closer to the Rhoynar than the Stony Dornish who live in the Red Mountains, some of whom may still practice male-preference primogeniture as opposed to absolute primogeniture. Internal divisions ensured conflict too place within Dorne even after unification, with Nymeria facing two rebellions during her 27 year reign according to TWOIAF. The Yronwoods rebelled several times in the centuries before Aegon's Conquest and supported 3 of the 5 Blackfyre rebellions; following the death of Nymeria's grandson Mors II, his successors the Red Princes (2 of 3 were female) faced further rebellions and sought to suppress the Rhoynar language, driving the Orphans to speak their mother tongue in secret only.

Other aspects of Dorne's worldbuilding will be discussed in greater detail in subsequent installments, but for now I believe this is a solid baseline for us to use. Similar to my analysis of the Velaryon Blockade, I'm going to offer my potential fix-its or improvements now as opposed to saving them all for a conclusion like I did with the Dance series. I think this is process is better based on the feedback I received for the Dance, as its better to highlight those aspects that still work and what areas can be made better as opposed to just listing off flaws ad nauseum. Although not perfect, I think that Dorne's worldbuilding is a step up from how the rest of the Seven Kingdoms are portrayed, being on par with the North and Iron Islands in terms of the information we're given about their socities and their cultural diversity. With the exception of the Vale and Riverlands to some extent, Westeros between the Neck and the Dornish Marches tends to blend together; for example, we have little indication of any differences in Westerlands culture between the coast and the Western Hills, or the mining communities and peasant farmers, despite having three major POVs from the Westerlands (Jaime, Cersei, Tyrion).

Dorne's cultural diversity is significant as there should be a greater variety of cultures and languages in Westeros just based on the great distances and different terrain, even among the First Men and Andals. That being said, there is one quibble I have concerning the four Dornish subcultures, specifically the 'Stony' and 'Sandy Dornish.' Rhoynar culture had a strong affinity with water due to their original home in the Rhoyne valley and use of water magic; TWOIAF also states that those who settled in Dorne preferred to live by the sea which had been their home during their wanderings, hence the 'Salty Dornish' culture. It doesn't really follow that the 'Sandy Dornish' should be more like the Rhoynar than the 'Stony' based on this information; if anything the reverse should be the case based on geography and settlement patterns.

Access to the sea is greater in the Red Mountains than the western desert thanks to the mouth of the Torrentine and the western coast of the Sea of Dorne, whereas Dorne's southern coast is mostly uninhabitable. The greater abundance of fertile land and fresh water in the mountains would better accommodate Rhoynar refugees than the more scarce resources of the western deserts; despite TWOIAF's references to water witches making "dry streams flow and deserts bloom," the majority of Dorne's population remains concentrated in the east and the Red Mountains, suggesting these were just legends or that water magic did not significantly improve the habitability of western Dorne.

The way the 'Sandy Dornish' and their culture are described is also contradictory; despite references to their living in the river valleys as well as the deserts, TWOIAF makes it clear that outside the valleys, "men live in different fashion" and describes the 'Sandy' way of life as centered around wells and oasis which support life in the desert. We also know that five of the six kings that Nymeria exiled to the wall were from the Red Mountains: Yorick Yronwood, Vorian Dayne, Garrison Fowler, Benedict Blackmont and Albin Manwoody, with Lucifer Dryland of Hellgate being the outlier. Largescale Rhoynar settlement in the marches should have been a priority for Nymeria in light of the opposition she faced from the lords of the Red Mountains, both to repopulate an area that had seen heavy fighting and ensure that the border of Dorne was settled with people that were personally loyal to her and had arranged marriages with the local houses.

The 'Stony Dornish' should be closer to the Rhoynar than the 'Sandy' on this basis alone, and this could have had interesting implications for the story and worldbuilding. Given the significant presence of the Andals in the western deserts, it would have been interesting to see how this remoteness affected the local development and practice of the Faith of the Seven. Ellaria Sand is a bastard of House Uller who are one of the Andal houses that settled in the desert, though we only get glimpses of her in ASOS, AFFC and ADWD; by having the 'Sandy Dornish' be more distinct, we could have seen how her houses' Andal roots affected her character if at all. Perhaps she would be closer to Tyene Sand due to her training to be a Septa, and Tyene could even instruct Oberyn and Ellaria's four daughters in the Faith? In fact this raises a broader criticism of the Dornish worldbuilding, being how the practice of the Faith in Dorne differs from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. TWOIAF mentions that the more liberal sexual morays of the Rhoynar clashed with the teachings of the Faith, but is the Dornish Faith deemed schismatic? Were there any conflicts with the Faith hierarchy? This is a subject that would be worth exploring since the in-universe author of TWOIAF, Maester Yandel, insists that the Andals learned ironworking from the Rhoynar and that there were relations between the two peoples prior to the Andal migrations. Did Rhoynar beliefs affect the development of the Faith in Essos and vice-versa, and did this have any affect on the adopting of the Faith by the Rhoynar that settled in Dorne?

We're going to cover more issues with the worldbuilding of Dorne once we start discussing the First Dornish War itself, but for now these are the extent of my issues as concerns the foundational worldbuilding. I believe George did a solid job of constructing it despite some flaws, and that greater issues mainly arise when trying to square this portrayal of Dorne with what we're shown in the Dornish Wars.

[rhaenin-time]

GRRM is too subtle about the way he deconstructs tropes and worldviews based in bigotry for it to be ethical for him to refuse to correct all the reader and audience misconceptions that uphold that very bigotry.