#all that to say. being able to post about armand and dm is kind of like. a rebellion i guess

[camellia-thea]

initially this post had some commentary about interests right now. and then it turned into a ramble about personal healing in the tags. so the interest post is going separately.

[brsb4hls]

Saw your post about Rolin and the possible disconnect between him and fandom. I think you might be right in some major ways - Rolin saying there will be “season and seasons”and that every interaction between them is DM might not mean what the fandom thinks.

I am interested in seeing an adaptation of the relationship, but I have to say that the latter half and ending of season two frustrated me. Basically because of how impersonal most of Daniel’s and Armand’s interactions were. I don’t mean that as opposed to romantic mind you (didn’t expect anything like that). I just wanted them to have any kind of personal dynamic and/or interaction at some point? The aftermath of s02e05 was really minimal in terms of of psychological fallout between them - sure Daniel’s angry and there’s the martini comment exchange, but otherwise it was all about Armand trying to save the situation with Louis (trying to spin everything relentlessly as AZ said). I just felt that it all was just in service to the bigger plot, at the cost of psychological realism (and character). Of course Daniel’s options were limited as he can’t really do anything to Armand - but expose the truth, but the relative “causal-ness” of s02e06 felt a bit… unrealistic (and convenient). If we’d seen Armand later turning Daniel in a rage as a consequence - him losing it as he lost Louis - him being angry at Daniel, that would have been something! A kind of showcase of an underlying tension - but Rolin skipping it kinda has made me think he just used the DM dynamic as a plot tool to reveal Armand’s lies. Him saying that the mere fact Armand turned him is something is really disappointing. I wouldn’t mind waiting to see it (since I agree IWTV is Louis’ story) but he’s said it’s not happening so… Plot and character moments can be married together in excellent ways, but I just really didn’t feel that was the case here.

I think to call something DM it has to be about Daniel and Armand, it has to be in some way personal. Armand panicking because his lies are being revealed isn’t it, and Daniel’s turning would have been it - but it was literally skipped so there has not really been any DM on screen. Maybe Armand “apologizing” without meaning a word could count, but I dunno. I would say the closest so far is Daniel’s annoyance (and vice versa) of Armand in s02e01 and s02e03. There’s been no real scene or dialogue actually showing these characters being curious or intrigued about on another - even in s02e05 Armand’s questioning of young Daniel is all anger and jealousy over Louis. He’s very quick to kill Daniel and very quick to being okay with letting him live, pretty nonchalant. Sure there is a few moments of them looking at each other which might indicate curiosity but those moments are so small and don’t have any context so I don’t think they even really count as crumbs (since they could mean anything or nothing). Like I was personally really into having them hate each other/be nemeses (plz give me point for proper plural form ;) ) but there was honestly so little. Like I’ve seen people reacting to this show being confused about why Daniel is relatively unfazed after s02e05 and/or asking if Louis and Daniel even told Armand that they remember. Yes, there’s scenes (sushi bar) which reveals more so people looking closely should be able to tell but it does say something about their minimal change of dynamic. If Rolin does dig into this dynamic next season and makes it personal - he has said they will at least have scenes - I’ll be happy, I just can’t help but worry a bit and I feel it’s too generous if fandom takes his words to mean we’ve already seen DM. Am I making any sense? I’m more than happy to be told I’m wrong or worry too much. Thanks for hearing me out! I enjoy reading your takes, as I feel you are quite sensible and avoid filling the gaps by projecting which I feel some other fans (and probably myself) at times do

Thank you for the long ask!

I was actually going back and forth for a while, since fandom can be pretty convincing, but looking back on my first impression when watching season 1 I was pissed they seemed to have cut the dm storyline by aging Daniel up (not that the age itself is a factor, more the 'lost time') and placing the show in recent times.

I think people might be a bit too positive for different reasons:

1) The ship is book canon, it already exists

2) The actors are ship positive

3) Assad does a lot of interesting micro expressions

4) Rolin does talk about it

Now for why that might not be enough:

1) Yes, it's canon, but a small part compared to a large book series

2) I think they are generally fan positive and think that dynamic is fun

3) Assad is clearly invested in that dynamic, he might have added something acting-wise from his own perspective

4) This is the main part, I think Rolin does have a 'red thread' for his show that's as close to the books as a 'modern' adaption allows. He will follow that thread but stray a bit to put in some extras for the fans.

The first two seasons were clearly about Louis, like the first book. Louis relationship to Lestat, to Armand, to Claudia.

With Daniel as a catalyst or plot device, like you said.

Third season will focus on Lestat.

Armand and Daniel will of course still be there, but not the main focus.

And I feel like Rolin treated dm more like an easter egg. Like Niki. Niki gets a tiny bit of screen time and the cut off hands are mentioned by Louis (unrelated to Niki) and part of the stage play graphics. Easter eggs for the fans.

If Rolin does the Lestat story with flashbacks (which he will, how else would you introduce Gabrielle f.e.) Niki might or might not get revisited.

Devil's minion got the easter egg treatment in the San Francisco bottle episode. There was past interaction, and an intense one, just not erotic or romantic.

Plus a blender mention. And from Rolin's perspective that might be enough.

Like, if he planned on filming as much of the books as possible, dm is not that prominent in the grant scheme of things.

It is prominent to fans of course, (like other characters that haven't even appeared yet are fan faves)

I personally was so taken in by that one chapter back in the day it easily became my favourite ship (and Armand my fave character).

But I think if we where to do statistics the majority of Vampire Chronicle fans are in it for Lestat (and Loustat as background otp, plus other Lestat relationships) or started out as Louis fans or simply fans of vampire horror drama.

And Rolin is trying to give those fans exactly what they want and now gets constantly asked about something that wasn't even exactly on his radar. That must be quite annoying.

And he does sound annoyed altho he's still answering playfully.

And I do agree with you about Daniel's and Armand's interactions. If we leave out Assad's possible extra acting choices there is mostly a competetive dynamic between them, where Armand is somewhat fond of Daniel from his own superior position, but also a bit condescending. And Daniel just wants to one up him.

Also yes, the missing fall out from 2x5. 'You tried to drain me, pal' especially the 'pal' that's such an understatement in regards to the whole situation. 6 days of physical and psychological torture and Armand just going 'well you also did drugs, same thing basically'.

So yes, while I do love to clown and enjoy all the dm posts and the cast being so positive about it, I don't think much was planned.

It might change due to popularity, depending on wether Rolin isn't too annoyed and how it fits the script.

They could also still do a reverse chase in the background without a 'romantic' plot simply with Armand going completely off the rails and Daniel still wanting to confront him about his turning.

I do hope for the classic enemies to whatever they have trope of course, but it doesn't have to happen. If every interaction between them is dm-coded already to Rolin he might simply go with a tense fledgling/maker thing.

Well, I cross my fingers, but if I'm staying realistic I don't get disappointed too much. ;)

And I gotta say, Rockstar Lestat looks fun af.

So that's at least something to look forward to.

And we'll always have Daniel being Armand's only fledgling! (Plus a ton of fan works, and that's always a comfort. But hey, maybe we do get a positive surprise.)

[cbrownjc]

Oh! You reblogged my reblog of your reblog and added 'wonderful addition' in your tags! Thank you so much! You're one of my very iwtv and dm blogs, so I'm very excited that you thought so. You always have such great meta (and made me feel unalone in the 'Daniel was dying of AIDS when Armand turned him; I don't care what Anne says' camp.. Overdose deaths... don't go that slowly and nobody who was overdosing could be that coherent. Even the most high-functioning addict couldn't have told such cohesive story re: the twins. Not even with their minds. If you have taken that much, you are either passed out or the words coming out your mouth are incoherent *or* your delusions are literally delusional and they tend to be really on a few things. Daniel would not have able to collect his like that. He just wouldn't have been. I didn't pick any of this up when I first read it because I was about 14 and didn't anything about anything. I have since grown-up and gained life experience I wish I did not have. I hope I don't sound like I'm being flippant about this. Or that I'm oversharing. Because I'm not trying to be. As I said, I take this from my own life experience as someone watching what this kind of drug use looks like and how it usually concludes. It's also just something that *really* stood out to me when I reread the Devil's Minion chapter very recently. I sat there and said holy shit, this is AIDS, right? I mean, it doesn't specify anything except Daniel destroying his body and I'm like, okay, well long-term drug use does destroy your body, but it's not all at once like this. This is a metaphor, especially with all the sexual encounters Daniel was having especially in that specific time period. Obviously, the first thing I did was hunt down posts on tumblr to confirm my suspicions only to find that, according to Anne, it was not meant to be a metaphor for AIDS. It was drugs? So, I sat there and went nope, not really how long-term drug use go, definitely not how overdoses on hard drugs go. Anne, I do not think you have been in the presence of a serious addict while they are scary high or even around one for any length of time if you think this is how it goes. I also thought that if it was supposed to be an overdose, then 500ish years-old or not, it should have still affected Armand. A longterm hard drug user like Daniel would have to have taken a lot of something very strong, particularly if we're talking about the drugs readily available to addicts in the 80s. This is one of those things in the books that I reject their canon and insert my own when I think about it. There are a bunch of outstanding arguments for why Daniel was dying of AIDS and then there's Anne's own words that she meant for it to drugs and I just feel like this is one of those occasions where death of the author must be applied. At least for it to make sense in *my* brain.

I am so sorry I just filled your inbox with a wall of text only very tangentially related to the original topic, which was to say 'thank you' and 'yay, one my favorite blogs said this was nice and now I feel less like all my commentary is unhinged nonsense! :D' But a wall text that no one asked for came out. I'm so sorry.

Hi!

First of all, don't worry about the wall of text, it's fine. It's nice getting message from people who just enjoy what I have to say and just want to say thank you! I will never have a problem with that. 🙂

I don't know if you've checked out my tag on the subject of AIDS on my blog, but I have some older posts there that discuss my thoughts when I first read Queen of the Damned and how Daniel was dying in that book. And, to be fair, Daniel wasn't really dying of drugs there, it was cirrhosis of the liver from drinking too much. Which I'm sure Anne chose it because she'd had a history of alcoholism and so could write from experience about it.

But yeah, it's still an addiction he was dying of. Which, by the time I read the book in 1995 was rather jarring that it actually wasn't AIDS, as I said in this post here. I can understand why it wasn't (given when Rice was originally writing that book), but it just can't help but be jarring now, when you read that book after the 1980s I feel.

Given that the showrunner and writers are playwrights, however, I think they well know they can't do Daniel's story in this day and age now without mentioning the AIDS crisis and tying his character into it in some way. It would just ring hollow not to, IMO. And I think they know that given that AIDS-related issues were some of the very first images we see in the first episode of the show, as well as the book we know in-universe he wrote about it.

Anyway, yes I really liked your post, and again, no apologies needed for the length or anything, really! The fact that you see me as a favorite blog to read is so nice to hear! 🤗

[nalyra-dreaming]

I don’t think the fans freaking out are doing so because of a lack of patience or want of ‘instant gratification’. I’m sure your anon didn’t mean to imply that, and you Nalyra, have been nothing but supportive and understanding (thank you) it’s just as a DM/Daniel/Armand fan it was a lot that was (potentially) changed/revealed about the dynamic very quickly. So let me explain why some are worried?

Like I went into the finale with low expectations of anything DM being shown. I was also open to them either doing past or only-present DM, maybe Armand had become fascinated during Dubai (I thought, same with Daniel)? Could be fun! Hearing Daniel would be turned I adjusted and was also open to them starting with them hating each other because Armand turns him due to anger. Then we don’t see that scene, which sucked ngl but I adjusted and thought well we might see it in the future. Then Rollins goes and says in several interviews that won’t happen. He could be lying but I don’t think we should hold it against fans who take him at his words.

Also he’s recently said they are doing their own version (which again is fine with me) but that it will be ‘spiritually right’. So what’s spiritually right about DM? I would say there are several aspects to it - but of course not all need to happen for it to be spiritually true. It is an adaptation after all.

Like there’s the co-dependent unequal power dynamic, there’s powerful Armand falling for a fragile human, there’s Daniel loving Armand (and seeing him as he is) despite the latter’s darkness, there’s the hate-love aspect, Daniel running away, the verbal fighting, “beautiful boy”, blood addiction, Armand loving Daniel too much to condemn him to vampirism, Daniel teaching Armand about tech/the world - bringing some humanity back to him after he’d isolated for a long time etc. (Armand’s fascination with all of these things), them falling in love through a chase, Armand not being able to let Daniel go when he’s dying, Armand keeping Daniel prisoner (which has been adapted) etc.

A lot of this stuff is tied to Daniel being human when they fall in love, and a lot has therefore potentially been cleared off the table by Daniel’s turning. Some fans view certain of these aspects as essential - for example Armand refusing to condemn Daniel to vampirism/and then doing it out of love. I’m okay with them changing this up, but I think it should be okay for fans to be apprehensive as seemingly a fair amount of the DM plot beats (not just one specific one or two) must change if they are doing was Rollins seem to be implying. I don’t think most DM fans are chiefly upset that they didn’t get to see the turning now, people are worried it will never happen and that DM will be so different as to be unrecognisable as a version of DM. I’m more optimistic, but I think fans have the right to be a bit worried.

Love your blog Nalyra, hope I don’t come across as too frustrated at your other anon, I do get your point of view anon, I do (I’m sure there’s more fatalistic fans out there so I do feel you), I just wanted to share my side of it as well, since I think I get why some fans are worried and disappointed.

All good, glad you like, and thank you for explaining!!

I… think there’s enough hints by Jacob and Eric now to expect the past chase to have happened. As such I think that part of DM (the chase and falling in love) will hold.

I think the finale left a lot with a kind of ”whiplash“ feeling. Me too, tbh, after two nights. As I said, I‘m working on a separate post with my thoughts.

Because what some called rushed or pacing issues was imho very deliberately dealt punches to the stomach.

Daniel‘s turning and the eye-color change carries so many repercussions?! So much meaning. It’s almost impossible to grasp.

Which is likely intentional.

And that is very frustrating. Totally get that.

They seem to stay close to the book structure (despite everything) and so I won‘t expect the full breadth of DM pre season 4. Which is … a hell of a wait.

But at least - and this is not to shut you up or anything(!!) but coming from personal experience - at least you don’t have to deal with shit for doubting the tale at this point. Or other shit pertaining to Lestat.

Isn’t that something at least? :/