#and the same is true for cdream!!

[rutadales]

the fun thing abt nfoe is it's taking the two characters who were left behind the most, grabbing there hands and saying, "but what if, this time, someone had stayed." what if they had someone who would have stayed. who would have helped, and loved, and cared. who would have put them first. what changes then

[fagtainsparklez]

there is not a day that goes by that i don’t think about the dropped plot of cboomer wanting to visit cdream in the prison. and i don’t just mean in the sense of finding out more about cboomer’s family but in the sense of like. what would sam have done? because we know how caught-up sam was at that point, how far he’d gone, how he’d turned his back on those he’d previously cared about (ponk, tommy, etc) for the sake of the prison. hannah even warns boomer about him, telling them that warden sam isn’t the same sam they know, and it drives me insane that we never got to know if that was true

because yes, warden sam was different to everyone. but would he have been different to boomer? boomer, who was the one person he trusted with his secret. boomer, who would later rescue him at the end of the world. boomer, who he’d known and cared about and loved for thousands of years. it’d have been so interesting to see sam, warden sam, cold, heartless machine sam, let down his guard for this one man to the surprise of everyone, or equally as interesting to see him still put up his guard despite his and boomer’s history. i literally feel myself lose years of my life every time i think about what they could’ve been,,,,,,

[lookinghalfacorpse]

I think cphil and cdream dynamic is interesting from ctechno stanpoint bc he's closer to cphil but he doesnt dislike cdream. And this is interesting when you see cphil thinks negatively of cdrea. I think one thing i really like it's when fics where these three have more interactions, they have to confront thise tension while ctechno is more leaning on cphil but wont treat cdream less humanly, dik if im explaning myself well here

maybe this is copium, but i stand by the idea that cphil isn't AS neg towards cdream as most of the fandom wants to think he is.

cphil is interesting in that he's very eager to offer help to anyone who asks for it. he often insults ctommy and holds a grudge against him for betraying techno, but still helps him when he asks. he's expressed disappointment in cwilbur, but still offers advice and is eager to feed him / help him feel better when he seems ill. i really do think that if cdream asked, cphil would help him. but we all know cdream doesn't do that, and he doesn't try to gain phil's favor and is at peace with phil knowing nothing about what his true intentions are. the closest we see is when dream indirectly asks for help via techno, and of course, cphil helps.

& fanon doesn't help here because sbi fans see cphil help ctommy once or twice and fail to see any reason about why he might do that. somehow, at the same time, i see a ton of cphil neg posts accusing him of helping cdream more than he helps ctommy. fanon fails to see the nuance in cphil's morality. it's a sort of wishy-washy morality, but one that i think makes sense for an immortal who has seen far too many wars to waste his time on gambling anymore. he sees someone hurting, and he helps. bonus points if ctechno also likes them.

WITH THAT SAID, yes, i agree, fics help to explore how interesting their dynamic might have been. i tend to write in the direction of "if cdream had no option but to ask for help and/or if cphil felt things were bad enough that he took things into his own hands, despite not being asked" but i've seen so many other fics do it so many interesting ways. and using techno as a way to navigate the tension between 'guy who is eager to help' and 'guy who would rather die than accept help' is brilliant.

[thatfriendlyanon]

ELLE !!! TWIRLS YOU AROUND !!! okay okay how has icarus as a character progressed/regressed (?) throughout the seasons?

JULIA !!! grabs your hands and spins !!

okay i LOVE the word choices you used bc mmmmm icarus definitely progresses As A Character and regresses As A Person throughout the seasons. oh my dreadfully unhealthy, insecure, obsessive birdgirl.....

in season 1 she's an extremely trusting, gullible person. ((that's what happens when you've lived your life with No Friends and are desperate to latch onto the first person you meet)) she loves her friends! and that's wonderful!! but she also hasn't taken the time to establish her identity Outside of the people she loves, which may come back to bite her later

in season 2, she is faced with the realization that the people she loves Might Leave, and/or this place she adores & calls her home may be Threatened & Unsafe because of people she loves (<- namely, sisyphus's skulk-cavern & the dangers that could cause, and the fear that sisyphus is Actively & Intentionally trying to turn themself into a warden. ope :////) she becomes more controlling, trying to identify the things that make other people happy so she can Ensure everyone is Content and thus won't want to leave; she becomes very jealous of things that occupy her friends' attention, and at one point considered kidnapping Kore's camel, though she didn't end up going that far. (<- this is what i jokingly refer to as her almost-cdream-arc sdljdsg) also at this point she hated the idea of anyone having secrets, and tried really hard to get everyone to ~open up~ with each other and ~share their feelings~. this. uh. was not received well by the two other people on the server who are Not emotive . and also don't really trust her at this point bc of all her prying and lack of boundaries. rip

and then, one of the worst things in her mind Does come true: sisyphus leaves.

she falls into depression for awhile, not leaving her house and losing the desire to do things that used to bring her joy. but kore is patient with her, and eventually she starts to adjust to the new normal of the deep green without sisyphus there. during this time, she finds a lot of support in kore, and is grateful to find their friendship strengthening & kore opening up a little more about her own life & emotions. at the same time, though, her anxiety was going through the roof––she was repeatedly checking the mail & checking for skulk & brewing more potions to help herself feel prepared, finally going through the work of getting a full set of netherite armor (<- thanks to rozu's help XD i'm miserable at bedbombing), etc etc. where before she used to be open-hearted, laidback, and eager to let her friends care for her in the same way she would care for them, s3 she slowly loses some of that trust & whimsy, and feels a much greater need to protect & shield herself, since she's no longer assuming the best of her friends' intentions. :/

despite losing some of her joy and trusting nature, she still hasn't put in the work to strengthen her identity outside of other people, though. she's still grasping for outside support, security, and assurance; hence her correspondence with thalia, and her desperation when reaching out to the Magic. she just wants someone to tell her how to make everything okay again. <- this is one Major way that she differs with kore, and it creates a lot of tension in their relationship (and is a key reason why they're currently not really on speaking terms. sighs).

then, s4 begins, and icarus sees sisyphus again for the first time in eight(?) months. she believes that if she just could've been Better or more of What They Wanted, they wouldn't've left; gotta be honest, icarus needs to realize the world does not revolve around her. people have emotions & feelings & pain & struggles that are completely Not Related To Her At All and she uh. needs to get that through her head. bc otherwise fights happen where she's like "i just wanted to be enough for you! but nothing i did was enough! and you leaving was a direct attack against me because it showed you didn't care!" etc etc and she just..... like.... girl. calm down and step back and maybe Ask The Other Person why they're feeling the way they're feeling? and receive their answer without taking it as a Problem to Solve to Make Them Friends With You Again???? SIGHS.

okay though, all that being said, she does have some strengths as a character/person/friend too though. :) bc once she finally does hear sisyphus's Whole Story that's not directly connected to her, and once she receives confirmation that they're Not trying to actively Make Her Home Dangerous, and once they apologize for some of the things they've done.....then she welcomes them back with open arms. and yeah this can be both a strength and a weakness as well, but one Good thing about icarus is that she views love to be the Most Important Thing In The World. so of course she's gonna love her friends. even when she does that poorly or wrong or selfishly, she does want her friends to Be Loved. and she is so ready to extend forgiveness & compassion & empathy & grace. <3 also now that sisyphus is back she is trying to be better about some things, like trying to give them more space & be less nagging etc etc. she's Trying !!! she's just still pretty self-focused without realizing it, and needs to get out of her victim complex.

sisyphus's apology & change of heart was huge for her. next she needs to do some apologizing of her own. (<- which is why i'm really interested to see what direction the fallout with the magic is gonna go.....she definitely owes kore an apology, even if icarus does not think that at this point. and she kinda needs to reevaluate a lot of things too. we shall see :>)

ask me anything about the deep green! 💚

[luckiestblock]

OKAY SO LONG YAP INCOMINNG OH MY GOD. wanna start with sorry! I'm kinda new to actually using Tumblr so Idrk where to put this OR if there was a better option but I really liked your post about cdream (and to and extent cwilbur) I really really liked how you point out that everyone made his character bc IT SO TRUE his character would be so BLAND (so fucking bland) without them bc GUESS WHAT? his ass is BLAND personality wise. I was a fan since the big 2020 bc my friend group were hot into DNF, tbh I did like dream at the time bc the Jackbox streams but I was a disappointed at his dsmp character bc I thought it would be...idk so much more? for the longest time I thought I liked him but I guess that was just part of the territory at the time, it was the DREAM smp after all, but instead throughout the years I ended up relating his character more to a malignant shadow for the server members, like he just haunts people, follows, stalks them, and is evil!!! It's an interesting prospect sure but its a disservice to him BECAUSE he needs someone to shape his villainy. I like how you put that he works as a villain because there are heros to fight against, he is fr the perfect foil!!! (tho I think that was accidental greatness) and the very little we saw of his perspective and the little of what we knew abt him really added to that spookiness and darkness of the story bc he felt like a real threat sometimes. During my time in the fandom from then (2020) into this day (possibly more??) I find it interesting how there was so little content to actually work off from his character that most artists and authors ended up painting his character like he was a blank canvas. (or shaping him like he was clay HAHA pun haha so funny) they got away with it bc there was no real and solid character traits to truly combat that things--I also think this is why his character was so beloved by those who liked him at the time ( bc he could be what you wanted) there were many times I believed that the fanfic authors were just better at writing him than the og ccs but what was there to compare to? (sidebr: The illusion really ended in 2022 when he was nothing like the collective imagination, ESPECIALLY IN PERSONALITY ESPECIALLY NOW, but I think that's a thing lots of the long time fans relate to and I guess I kinda deserved that as I was believing a dream hahaha pun haha so funny) Anyways, I really want (wanted?) to make this analysis work of him especially because the way the cc actually acts falls so much into what cdream solidly was (same with cwilbur but minus the "no-character, no shape" argument) It would cover my theories of him being the shadow for the other dsmp characters, the canvas for the fans, what is there in him really and what that meant for cdream overall minus all the rosy lens while being kinda metaaaa idk. I also wanted to do the same insane deepdive for wilbur's character and his overlap bc ITS SO INTRESTING. but now I feel doing this would be in very poor taste and kinda oddball of me (and when is it not in poor taste bc theres always drama??? its never my time fr) and that sucks because I'm still so down bad for this fandom its not fucking funny like I still want to make art for it, theorize, talk and trade ideas with ppl and do all these studies still and I don't know what's really wrong with me for still loving all the characters OH SO MUCH still while HATING majority of the ccs for these 5 years. I wasn't in it for the people after the big 2021 (as I kinda lost interest or didn't support) but the compelling lore and the AMAZING fan content. I don't know how ppl would take it and overlapping drama with the creators doesn't seem so "c! only" of me (but I think its fire so whateva) anyways sorry for the long yap just wanted to put this out there.

re: this post

firstly, welcome to tumblr! i think most people are fine with people adding discussion in inbox or when reblogging a post. i'm glad u liked my post :)

I was never a Dream fan, but i really expected more from his character as well. I WANTED more of his character. By himself, c!Dream is a walking plot device meant to Cause Conflict, which is a shame because the little that was set up was so interesting. Puffy at one point had a one-off line about being his mom (or maternal figure) if i remember correctly, which you could do SO MUCH with on that alone (though, I don't remember if that was just a joke or de-canoned. either way, it would be a VERY interesting dynamic)

The implications of him being trapped in the prison on purpose is very interesting, but that never got payed off. We know that he worked with c!Punz and c!Ranboo on some things, and with c!Dream being an Isolated Villain who is a Control Freak, that has SOOO much great potential. "Does he genuinely trust them? Does he want to trust them? Why do they agree to work with him?" are all interesting questions that... also got unanswered. but with these things (and the connections to Dream XD + Techno), you get the really great fan-interpretations of c!Dream that are really interesting and fun! that make him more of his own character with more nuanced motivations!

(this is coming from someone who wanted to put endersmile duo under a microscope. so i might a bit biased. but god. GODDDDD WHAT WAS THEIR RELATIONSHIPP)

"I really want (wanted?) to make this analysis work of him especially because the way the cc actually acts falls so much into what cdream solidly was" if you make this please send that to me 🙏

"I also wanted to do the same insane deepdive for wilbur's character and his overlap bc ITS SO INTRESTING. but now I feel doing this would be in very poor taste and kinda oddball of me" it might be because i also think there's overlap between wilbur and his character (like, besides how a person's creations reflect them in some way), but i think it WOULD be interesting, and only in bad taste if you dont think about the words you're saying. Which goes into your next point:

With what we know was going behind the scenes, i dont think you can (or Should) try to "death of the author" the dsmp. but that doesn't mean you should feel wrong for still enjoying the characters. there are still a lot of people who love the dsmp while not supporting the creators in anyway, shape or form. There's still lovely fanart (and i assume fanfic) being made of it.

honestly, i think about the lore and world very often. it's a really good example of something that can only exist in minecraft. it's a good showcase of everyone's ability to improvise and collaborate (or the opposite, in some cases). it's one of those things that make me think "gosh, if I could change this one thing..." over and over. i am eternally haunted by the potential of Limbo and how it was SO close to being the coolest thing ever.

anyways. i never get nonnys in my askbox (because i dont talk often) so i am very happy for this excuse to yap. i want to chew on the dsmp and i hope people release the lore docs and what they were planning

[sketchehm]

I think another way of people treating the world around then differently as c!dream is how people act about his role as admin. He has to intervent in conflict to solve them and make sure people follows the rules. But at least with l'manberg and c!tommy's situation people want him to take others roles. On l'manberg c!will wants him to take the role of the tyrant just for doing his job (aside of his actions on it) and the rest of the server that arent his allies wants him to just give up the rules and give it a pass. But they also kinda want him to be responsible to look for others bad habits too. Like how when it's point put ctommy's bad actions sometimes it's just tell "he's just a kid" and act as it's cdream's fault for not looking out for him like some guardian, or how some blamed him for c!wilbur taking his life when yeah cdream didnt help him much but his decision was only his. For c!dream his role it's to make people follow the rules and not created conflicts and that's all but some treat him like he's some sort of teacher or guardian

Hi!!

That's very true! Its how the other server members treat and receive Dream that they practically put his role as an admin/owner on a pedestal.

It's Dream being the owner that he has to have all this power. Him being genuinely kind to his server members in the beginning is completely overlooked solely by the joining of Wilbur when he puts Dream in this frame as something more than an equal. Because Dream had regarded himself as an equal to everyone else, he was no different to them. Just someone who had more a voice of reason compared to many of his friends.

It isn't that he didn't want his friends to fight because he's the owner, but because he didn't want anyone upset. He didn't want anything griefed because he didn't want anyone to genuinely be affected by the destruction. He didn't uphold his role because it's his job, but because he genuinely wanted everyone to have fun. People want Dream to let them be and do whatever chaotic nonsense they want, but Dream knows that not everyone has that same mindset and is better to keep a more relatively calmer atmosphere. Tommy being added to the bag, if anything, had allowed Dream to find different ways to work around destructive behavior. Dream banning Tommy, if anything, showed how Dream was not used to someone just listening to him and saw an immediate threat in that. This was someone outside of his circle and he recognized it, so he did start being more lenient to Tommy's behaviors and learning about them. Such as engaging in stealing the discs. And I really don't regard this as him taking his role of an owner for the betterment of his server, but as someone who is finding a new kind of fun with someone else on his server.

However, that is quick to take a turn when people aren't regarding him as a fellow player that you should also hear out and respect but as someone in the way of what they want. Power. Something that was never on the table and something that never was to be contested before.

So Dream had to stand his ground and say no. Because a fight for some silly discs in a back and forth during the beginning was just that, a back and forth. It wasn't until Wilbur was claiming he had the right to take and control the land L'manburg stood on that pushed too far. Because the land was for everyone. But once he did this, no one had ever saw Dream the same again. And almost vice-versa. Dream could never again see the others being destructive as a way of entertainment but as a way to go against him and his server. They could never really be equals ever again.

Dream had taken his role as owner to try and stomp out the one thing he was being accused of abusing throughout the server's lifetime. Power, hierarchy, tyranny. And isn't that an amazing paradox?

Dream had to provide to the server in every which way because he was the owner, not too little and not too much. But it was always too little or too much. He was no longer someone working alongside them, someone also trying to work out the same problems they were facing and experiencing. He was just someone above them who should already know the answers. And with that, others didn't want someone above them, so they aimed to bring him below them and take whatever Dream had claimed to power.

But all Dream wanted was to stand by them again.

Of course, this is all personally speaking!

[demonstars]

would you consider c!dnf to be star-crossed lovers?

yes. Hi this is why i took so long anon.

the definition of star crossed  in wikipedia is “"thwarted by a malign star" or that the stars are working against the relationship” . And obviously peak quote right there from shakespeare’s play (tho i think i read somewhere it Has a precedent? but as many things the one writing gets all the credit probably): A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life. LIKE YOU KNOW IT YOU KNOW THE THEMES YOU ASKED ABOUT IT sorry i just like defining stuff ok but um yeah Literally that there’s something above them that prevents their relationship from occurring or continuing. in this case it is the fact that the one thing that the dsmp is trying to amend is the fact that dnf can’t be together, so they play together. this is a very important factor because the reason as to why the dsmp as a narrative exists, is because everyone was just generally inside their houses, looking for connection. i am so passionate about this, so please bear with me. 

SO at first glace it is mostly due to their actions that they fall apart. specifically a lot of people but the weight of their separation on cdream’s well entire Thing. yknow control the fawking disks and general uncaring behaviour towards cgeorge. or well no i dont actually know those were a takes in 2020. Of course this is cDream Is A Complex Character, Actually house so we’re Not going to allow such a lack of nuance in our interpretation, but the weight still falls on him a little, no? well no but yes. you see, in a way, i do think cdnf were preemptively doomed just from the core conflict that emerges the first time they fight against an actual force (lmanberg) I think i wrote this in the doc?? but To Me the actual reason as to the conflict between cdnf, ignoring the boiling point that’s obviously dethronement, is just how much stakes they have in the game aka how much they care about the other/the world. cdream cares. cdream cares so fucking much about everything. he Feels responsible for everything, when conflict happens he tries his best to act upfront about it and fix it: he wants to help everyone and he cares too much about everything, in a way that almost makes him a control freak. if he can fix everything, everyone can live happily – but that requires everyone’s trust in him to make the right decision, and well sometimes people just wont listen to you and it doesnt matter whether or not youre right. and you can think like. a little fucked up but here’s da other thing. cgeorge just doesnt give a single fuck. cdream says its okay? eh, it must be true. he has Full Trust In All His Decisions. and that doesnt necessarily means he’s unable to make his own, or that he doenst. he goes against cdreams decisions a lot of times actually but just in Silly Mode: is just that he prefers it to when they are together, the same side. and this is what makes them work so well! cdream likes and treasures that trust. cgeorge loves that cdream cares for him and his wellbeing. It was neverrrrrrrr them Themselves who would’ve made it not work out. 

i think that there’s like the knowledge that it can’t work out in that world what makes it fall apart. the world becomes hostile against them, and as their relationships weakens due to a Variety of Reasons, it justcouldve never worked out. It’s less their decisions (cdream was going to come back for cgeorge, cgeorge would’ve received him with a little snark but open arms) BUTTHEY JUST DONT /GET TO HAVE THAT RESOLUTION/. THEY KEEP /MISSING EACH OTHER/. its like seeing two stars in the same sky in vertical knowing they will NEVER reach each other. they dont get a define conclusion and we (and them) are just left to what ifs and what couldve happen-eds. their happy ending is outside of their hands because ccdnf are atp spending more time calling each other and talking to e/o to log onto minecraft to do silly tasks. its just not enough anymore for them. it was never going to work out 

okYeah sorry for essaying my bad 

[supernovaa-remnant]

bc karo (@sioster) asked abt this fic idea, may I present to you:

my semi-canon compliant mixed w/ alternate universe cdreambur fic idea (which may or may not ever become a reality).

basically, it's semi-canon compliant in the sense that all of the canon events happen (mostly) without any major changes, but there is one (1) change from the pogtopia arc, which is that a) admin = minor gods, and b) vassals are an actual bond a god can make with a non-god. essentially, it's taking canon events and viewing them through the lens of the aforementioned information being true.

so it goes from the pogtopia arc up to the finale and just... examines cdreamburs relationship whilst taking into account this one idea of vassals and gods. how it affects their interactions and how it can change interpretations, but also how much can stay the same.

it's probably my most in-character story idea that is closest to the lore (seeing as I tend to operate under some unknown blend of canon and fanon that even I can't fully describe). uhhh, it also includes scenes that are post-prison pre-utah that, obviously, weren't ever shown in canon. but that includes some cwil and cpunz interactions which are really really interesting. (how cpunz views cwil and his connection to cdream).

it also would include a bunch of religious imagery and symbolism bc that connected to cdreambur will always be top tier in my mind. and it has themes of devotion and obsession and possession and overall unhealthy relationships. it's a very ambiguous relationship, too.

it would be titled "You and I Drink the Poison From the Same Vine" bc daylight is such a cdreambur song and you can't change my mind lol

the ao3 description would be:

Wilbur asks to be Dream's Vassal. Dream agrees. It's the best and worst decision they've ever made.

A semi-canon compliant exploration of Dream & Wilbur's dynamic during key moments of the SMP.

Or, a tragedy in six acts.

Anyway, may or may not ever actually write it. I think it'd be really fun, but ultimately it depends on time on motivation lol. But just know that I'm spinning it in my mind constantly.

[ooh-dream]

if both cdnb and cawesamdreamvault results are the same we can said that ctechno x cdream x csam x pandora vault is the true winner /j

In fact that this is exactly what happened, anon

[rutadales]

Do you not think cDream is the villain? Sorry this is not at all meant to be agressive or anything, I just have trouble understanding that interpretation. I’m genuinely interested in what you think bc I’m not as well versed in lore as many dsmp fans but from what I’ve seen, cDream is a pretty unequivocally bad person. I think few of the characters aren’t to be fair, but though cDream is more complex than the common interpretations, he doesnt necessarily seem to be morally better? Again, don’t mean to sound rude or anything!! Just kinda trying to understand :)

So this question kinda expands into several branching off points for me, but I'll try to keep it simple and break it down into sections as best I can. this is going to get long

So do I think c!Dream is a villain? Depends on what definition you're using first of all but also in what context, in which storyline, and from whose perspective you're consuming the story from. A strength of SMPs as storytelling devices is that the concrete plot and hard facts of the story are often pretty fluid; what happened when, who was there, who saw what, and who is a villain or a hero is all dependent on which stream you chose to tune into at the time. But as much as this is a strength, it's also a detriment. Entire character beats and motivations can be missed or obfuscated by simply not tuning into a creators stream. A big example of this is how many people missed the Staged Finale reveal, anyone who didn't watch Punz stream will still be operating under the belief that everything Dream did in the disc finale was his true nature, and not an act. Completely changes how to interpret those characters and the entire finale as a scene.

The nature of stream based storytelling is audiences are consuming completely different stories, simultaneously, and there's no hard copy of this story. It's not a book you can go pick up at Barnes and Noble or a movie you can stream on Netflix. To get caught up and engage with the fiction you either have to go back and rewatch hundreds of hours of live content (with dead space and parts that have been completely ret-conned), watch recaps edited by third parties who are at liberty to cut out anything they deem irrelevant to the story, or get it exclusively word of mouth by the audience. A character being more loved by the audience now means that character's narration is given higher value in contrast to other characters. Even supposedly non-biased sources, like the fan wiki, meant to lay out bare bone facts of the story are riddled with un-sourced fan interpretations of the media. Look here

Now, reading a characters unreliable narration as reliable isn't a failing as it is more just engaging with the media as intended. The intent of utilizing unreliable narrators is often to "trick" the audience or to showcase how that character sees the world. Its fine and is used is a lot of different mediums, I'm actually a huge fan. Love me some bitches who just lie. The thing is, due to everything I've laid out above, having a character who is unreliable, like c!Tommy often is, in this medium means fans who only consume the content via world of mouth are getting an unreliable narration without the context that its unreliable. This completely changes entire swaths of the fiction and more, to our point, who is the villain.

A really, kind of neat phenomena in the fandom is how fans bought into c!Wilbur's lies about L'manberg the same way the characters he was manipulating did. Fans became part of the narrative in a strange way. Which is actually a perfect example for how other characters shape the narrative around Dream, both within the fiction and within the fans trying to engage with it.

With that in mind, I don't even read the dsmp as a story with "villains" or "heros", its a story with a lot of different perspectives that clash with each other. Those terms don't really lend themselves to the kind of questions I'm asking about the story.

I think the question you're really asking is "Do you think c!Dream is a good person". You bring up being "unequivocally bad" and moral a couple different times, which to me flags as a question about fictional morality. Because the question of who is a villain in the dream smp is completely dependent on who you watch, which streams you've watched, and whosever narration you decided to subscribe to-- and is why I find the label villain in dsmp analysis fairly mute. It's kinda a pointless exercise to try and determine who earns that label and who doesn't. Not the kind of analysis I'm interested in.

But to answer the question I think you imply here, no I don't think c!Dream is a good person. I don't think anyone on the smp is. Maybe Michael? Well he tried to break into a prison for information, so by some moral standards, absolutely not! I'd certainly agree with you that Dream is more complex than common interpretation would lead us to believe, but that complexity does lend itself to morality in some cases.

Is Dream wrong to want to prevent his home from being split up into countries and thus filled with conflict? Is it worse to threaten, torment, and assault someone because you're pathologically obsessed with them or because you have a larger goal in mind and find those actions beneficial to the goal at hand?

To me, that's it's just pointless hole to get sucked into. I am personally uninterested in ideas of a character possessing or gaining moral purity and much more interested in characters learning to move on from the harm they've caused. C!Dream is interesting to me, not because he's a good person, but because hes a complex one. TL;DR: I am uninterested in using villain as a term within the context of dsmp and find the discussions of the moral goodness of characters reductive.

If you have any other questions feel free to shoot me an ask! I actually quite enjoy breaking down how I think about characters and media and am always open to (friendly) discussions on the matter. <3

[blankqueerthought]

Do you have any headcanons that are true for most/all of your fanworks even if it’s not always noticeable?

ooooh that's a good question. hmm. there's a couple, probably, but off the top of my head i have one big one.

if a fic has cdream and magic in it, you'll find me making a reference to godhood as something you achieve, something you have to win; the idea of it is that some people (admins, mostly) have achieved a power that's a start to godhood. kinda like getting your degree, to immortality. it's not always shown in the same way, but i just like the idea of getting your godly phd so much.

i also have my own design things, like scars, that i don't even think about but keep consistent.

[bleue-flora]

I Saw one person Said on twitter that cdream probably doesn't hate attachments bc the speeches when he said it/implied it were staged and wow they kinda have a point. While tbh i do think there's a bit of true in what cdream Said in those, it does get one to think, what we know of this guy that isn't a lie to make everyone think he's a crazy enough to be locked up? Like cpunz and cdream evil Disney villains moments on the final streams were most probably an act for cclingy so how much of what we know about the guy is a lie just trick us? Cdream can be a manipulator bc he manipulates people into believing the worst of him, using their already hate for him agaist them and it's interesting how it can trick Even us sometimes. We could never know what was on that guy mind the same as the other characthers and make our own assumtions of it and give him motovations that arent his. And when the final came he had the oportunity to Said the others which is his real motovation and not a theory created based on assumtions miscontructed or theories or líes

lol yea that boy is more attached to his attachments than anyone on the server and that’s saying something considering ctommy fought wars just for the discs, the difference is that cdream does not put the value of an item above all else.

But man did you see the way he stands in front of the cat and takes ctommy’s punches to protect it, and how he killed ctommy after already being in prison with him for weeks right after ctommy killed the cat. Did you see the way he snatches spirit from ctommy in the finale or the way he yells about it while being blackmailed, or the way he responds to csam in Daedalus about bringing animals back to life. Did you hear the way he won’t name the dog in prison after ctechno keeps asking him, almost like he’s afraid if he names it it’ll be taken from him just like everything else he’s named. Did you hear the way he screams at csam to get cquackity to stop killing ctechno, the way he tells ctechno he doesn’t want to experience death, and the way he stands in front of ctechno trying to take the hits for him. Did you see the way he not only helps ctechno get totems to dodge death (after he knows he can bring him back with the revive book), not only provides the distraction to help him escape and give him items, but saves his horse Carl. Did you hear the way he tells cpunz they need to separate so he can stay safe from the server coming to kill cdream (right after they save Carl who was used to kill ctechno). Did you hear the way he begs and explains in the dethronement conversation how he’s just trying to protect them, how dethroning cgeorge keeps him safe, how when he crowns him originally he promises to keep cgeorge safe but already begins to worry that he cannot because he can’t be everywhere all the time. Did you see how ctommy gets exiled after he burns down cgeorge’s house. Did you hear the way he comes and asks csapnap for his armor after the jailbreak while he’s already in full netherite, the way he practically begs to have what’s his back for sentimental value.

Cdream is so very attached, even his denial and adamancy of not having attachments proves as much. Of course, he’s going to claim he doesn’t care in front of his biggest enemies right after his dead horse’s leather is threatened to be burned and he’s blackmailed into tearing down the walls while they ruthlessly mock him, after they burned down cgeorge’s house because they know he cares about cgeorge. Of course, he’s going to say he has nothing to lose as everyone rallies to take him down. Of course he’s going to yell how he has no attachments - no weaknesses - nothing they can use against him - nothing they can hurt to hurt him.

He’s so freaking attached it’s why he knows the value of attachments. It’s why he knows the limits of what ctommy will do for his discs, it’s why he gives back their armor after the battles and wars. He values and respects people’s care for their attachments. That’s why he knows the items on the walls will piss them off to the point of imprisoning him, because on the outside it’s the most ridiculous nonsense, he didn’t even steal those items, besides the discs he’s not really been one for blackmail before - and honestly like come on now, the skeppy cage? Showing ctommy all the things he has and what his plan is when he intends to let him live. - He knew attachments would make people blind to how crazy it all was, blinded by their love and fear.

Honestly, one of his funniest lines in the disc confrontation is how people didn’t really have attachments before ctommy and how ctommy creates attachments. Like heh? I’m sorry I don’t remember ctommy being there for bekerson or mars or spirit or cponk’s first lemon tree… people had attachments before ctommy, he didn’t influence that. He didn’t even form L’manberg one of the bigger attachments to begin with. What do you mean ctommy is the instigator of attachments so you can control people — Dream, babe, you make no sense…

I digress, as far as him lying to us and can we even believe anything he says, is it all a trick…etc. I will say that there is a reason the cdream apologists were not surprised by what he says in the finale. It’s because we already knew it was true even before the words left his mouth. Because within his lies there is a thread of truth, the best lies always do. And when he’s not preforming as the big bad villain in front of his enemies, he’s actually very honest with people. And we can determine this by what his actions and logic say versus his words. Where are the contradictions. Where do things not line up quite right or make sense. How does his voice sound. Who is he speaking to, his enemies or his friends. The finale is the most honest we see cdream be to ctommy but that doesn’t mean he hasn’t been honest and said his motivation before. In fact, in his conversation with cpunz alone we see him spell it out and I’m fairly certain that’s not the first time either. Needless to say, yes we don’t get to see in his head but even cpunz kinda mislead us leading up to the disc confrontation, and it’s not like other characters are always upfront with their motivations (perhaps they themselves are not even aware of what they are), the reason things get misconstrued and poor assumptions get made aren’t just because we don’t get to see his pov (though that certainly is a big reason), but also because they are based on the actions and words of cdream when he’s around his enemies versus when he isn’t.

Huh… as an aside I’m pretty sure I’ve referenced this in most of the fanfic I’ve written… maybe I should just let Dream and Punz explain ;D (sorry my quotes live rent free in my head so uh enjoy angst I guess lol XD…)

[Misery Loves Another Idiot - Dream]

“It was out of kindness, mercy and attentiveness that he severed his relationships. A form of twisted protection to distance himself. It wasn’t supposed to be this real. He didn’t want them to hate him. He did say he didn’t care, but did people honestly believe him? He should be glad. He should be glad they fell for his lies. But he can’t help but feel betrayed by their incredulity. That no one bothered to consider. To ask questions. To listen. Was he so far gone already that doubt wasn’t viable? He’s a ‘liar’ after all, why was the assumption then that he was telling the truth?”

[Dreamcatcher - Punz]

“He still can’t believe they trusted Quackity and Tommy over Dream’s own words. He remembers so vividly the way Dream pretended it was intentional. Like he wanted them to leave. Like he wanted to keep them safe by not caring. It was easier than facing the rejection. Easier than knowing that his words and actions were meaningless. Easier than confronting the fact that they trusted others and the lies he tried to use to protect them. It was so much easier than facing the fact that even his close friends saw him as nothing but a power hungry tyrant (just like everyone else).That was the moment Dream’s paranoia increased and the line between his villain fascade started to become less obvious. That was the moment Dream learned that he’d have to scream to be heard and lie to be listened to.”

[Hell in a box - Dream]

“Sure, Punz has always been there by his side, through every war, but Dream can’t let go of paranoia and fear. The fear of losing him. Of losing everything. Of losing everyone. The fear weighted by every attachment that gets taken from him. Everything he loves torn from his grasp for others to rub in his face that he lost something yet again. And it hurts. He wishes it didn’t. He wishes he could be the cruel, cold, attachment-less devil they think he is, but he can’t help but get attached. To love a cat or a suit of armor or his ally. To care about the things that allow him to at least feel human. Punz is the only one left. And as much as he wants revenge, he doesn’t want to risk exposing Punz. To risk exposing his key to immortality. To risk having everyone know he does have a weakness. He knows the game, he’s played it before, but unlike Spirit, Punz is alive. And the moment he reveals his attachment, his ally, he’ll be killed mercilessly, just like Hope was.”

[Hell in a box - Punz]

“He still remembers when Dream held attachments, had pets, had a home. When Dream cherished his horse before it was ruthlessly murdered. When Dream spent days upon days making sure his armor and weapons were perfect, before they were stolen again and again. When Dream fought wars and collected items for his friends all the while making them laugh, before they abandoned him. When Dream proudly crafted his secret base, the smooth wood giving it a welcoming warm vibe, before it became a deep hole for a trap.”

[theyovngveins]

its all about the idea that you can hate someone and still love them .

[anxiouslyextroverted]

think it just clicked in my head that the disc finale was only half staged....

[gogtopia]

i think the reason that cgeorge gets so misinterpreted is people like straight up forget shit he’s done and only focus on the dreamscape streams, a mostly fanon version of the king/knight era, and a vague idea of the earliest dsmp streams. like you can’t leave out the fact that george ran as the vp of swag2020 (and that he actually did seem to care about quackity’s mission despite sleeping through the election) or him being the person that established mexican l’manburg/el rapids initially (which he initially conceived to be a city rather than a country to rival l’manburg after being griefed but also functioned as a new place/home for him and his friends) or even the fact that he was the person that actually killed c!karl in the protest after his dethronement. like all of this factors into his character as much as his more recent lore streams and does a lot more to contextualize his relationships with other members of the server, especially dream, quackity, sapnap, and karl.

george resents cdream because he feels betrayed by him... because he was betrayed by him. dream dethroned him without asking him what he wanted at all claiming it was to protect him and a few days later tore down the country that he build as a safe space for him and his friends (which he had been treating with hostility even before the dethronement.) he literally hasn’t faced him since the el rapids conflict idk why people have this idea that george would ever fucking join him. like with the characters as they are that’s such a braindead take. dream is the person who hurt him so badly that he’s fallen into a state of apathy and derealization and he’s done absolutely nothing to redeem himself. also why the fuck would george join in on whatever plan dream has when that’s part of what drove a wedge between them in the first place.

george’s relationship with quackity is complicated because they’ve leaned on each other on and off but their outlooks on a lot of things clash, george is mostly carefree with what he does while quackity is extremely intentional, which is obvious if you’ve seen how they function during their presidential campaign and their approach to el rapids. george takes quackity being off somewhere else as them both working on their separate projects while quackity takes it as a betrayal, especially since george and sapnap let him take the fall for killing karl. i think from george’s destructive dream that we can infer that over time george’s feelings on it have turned to that of abandonment after a time. he blows up nevadas because it’s the reason that he and quackity aren’t friends anymore, something that he clearly feels is out of his control (potentially because it has to do with the karl and quackity fight. it’s not george’s fight but he suffers anyway)

and then if you look at george’s relationship with sapnap you can see something very positive. sapnap wasn’t present for george’s dream of destruction because he’s the person that george wouldn’t dream of destroying. because through everything, sapnap has been loyal to him, even when dream turned his back on both of them and destroyed their home. he was the knight that dream could never properly be and continues to fight for him like he’s defending his king. sapnap and george have, in many ways, felt the same pain and that brings them together. it’s another reason george would never join dream. he won’t hurt sapnap the same way dream hurt them.

finally, george’s relationship with karl hasn’t been explored as much as of late so it’s hard to pin it down. george is one of the people he remembers and he clearly misremembers his death in the protest (it was sapnap’s idea to kill him and george ignited the tnt). their relationship seems positive, they’re sharing a house and everything, but something about it still seems distant. there’s secrets as well as lies in kinoko which prevents true closeness.

[cupcraft]

I think looking back on it (even me when I first saw it) people misunderstood why c!Wilbur made c!tommy dig for rocks.

c!Wilbur never had any intention of using those rocks, doing really anything at all, sure he felt great to be alive and not in Limbo but he had no plans in life. His life was supposed to end the 16th. Here's a man who never wanted to lead, who felt like the only reason people stuck around him was because of his leadership and plans and words and etc which couldn't be further from the truth, esp c!tommy. So he gave c!tommy tasks, plans, conflict, he did a grand gesture to "defeat cdream for his tyranny and taking of freedom" via the discs once more. None of which is what c!tommy wanted, or why he stuck by cwilbur or loved him. And none of which c!wilbur enjoyed, because he hates leading and being this Figure, and he also had no intentions of any plans other than to leave the SMP. The rocks went to no builds/no true nation against Las Nevadas because it was never meant to. c!Wilbur probably also did the rock task/plus other things to keep c!Tommy as distracted and far away from him as possible, because as you recall c!Wilbur didn't have the courage to ever say goodbye to c!Tommy or give him that closure. There's a reason he apologized to everyone else before c!Tommy and why he avoided it so long. And why there were times c!tommy would say "i haven't seen him in a while" while he was on the same ddamn server with like 0 surival skills or tools (so he couldn't have gone far!). There's a reason c!Wilbur said he never cared about LManberg and he was just using people, the greatest lie he ever told.

People used to see that rock task as "proof" cwilbur was "using" tommy, that he never cared about him, and that can't be further from the truth. c!Wilbur did wht he thought people wanted of him, including c!tommy, and he avoided admitting for a long time since his revival that he wanted to leave. And that's what makes the goodbye so much more narratively beautiful. It's what makes c!wilbur and c!tommy having time apart that much more important, with the promise this time they'll see each other again.

(With the idea c!wilbur will forgive himself too.)