#baghra critical

[theweeklydiscourse]

I can’t help but find it funny whenever certain Shadow and Bone fans discuss the Darkling’s character and dramatically ponder over his motivations while lamenting what could have been. Like, I agree that he’s a complicated character…just not complicated I’m the way they’re thinking of.

For them it’s like:

“Ah you see the Darkling is such a well-written character because of his nefarious hunger for power cloaked by sympathetic motives. He seeks a noble goal but alas! If only he wasn’t so corrupted by power and just approached the issue of Grisha liberation with diplomacy and talked some sense into the Tsar! Such a simple thing…and yet his greed won out.”

I have found that many criticisms of the Darkling’s larger goals are based on the assumption that his goal is based in a personal desire for power and not a collective one. The idea that his goals of freeing Grisha from exploitation and servitude are not genuine, but rather something that obscures his hidden greed and selfishness. My biggest gripe is that this sort of commentary on the Darkling’s character always reads as a bit self-congratulatory for what is (in my opinion) a misreading of his character.

Also, I heavily dislike the idea that all it would take for him to achieve liberation would be tactics like working within the system, diplomatically appealing to the Tsar or just generally appealing to the humanity of the ruling monarchs. I have to wonder: do these people honestly believe that oppressed groups of people obtain human rights by politely appealing to the ruling class? In Shadow and Bone, the Tsar is not only incompetent but also a serial rapist with unchecked power who benefits immensely from the servitude of Grisha. So why on earth would he just give them rights when he gains so much by keeping them under his thumb? Relying on the mercy and meagre charity of a corrupt ruler is a futile game that will end in failure.

“Oh but his hunger for power-!” His hunger for power that would enable him to do what? At the end of the day, Aleksander needs power to achieve liberation for the Grisha and to protect them from the existential threats they face on nearly every side of the conflict. Tell me, how is he going to accomplish anything from a position of servitude and powerlessness? Would it be more noble of him to just sit quietly and wait for the Lantsovs to come to their senses and realize that Grisha are deserving of equal treatment? How much do the Grisha stand to lose by prioritizing civility and diplomacy when their lives are at stake?

In this situation, power was not a want, but a need. The fact that the narrative consistently frames his quest for power as a bad and greedy goal is so naive and backwards because realistically there is no way for him to accomplish it otherwise! This is echoed in Alina’s efforts to save the country through the Morozova amplifiers and being chided for her greed as a result. Either way, this story has some strange priorities when it comes to discussing oppression and liberation.

[greensaplinggrace]

every day I think about how much better sab would have been if baghra was the villain and nikolai was another antagonist...

[fiora-miriel]

The way Baghra tells Alina that "the Darkling has had hundreds of years to manipulate young women"... and deliberately omits how much longer she herself has had to manipulate people.

[waldensblog]

Alright, I’m doing it. I am reading Shadow and Bone.

For context, I watched the show, but have never read the series before. Now, without further ado...

Alina:  I found Alina a bit irritating at the beginning, because she just seemed to be absolutely obsessed with Mal. Ana in the first few pages says the two are “too attached” to each other, and I felt that way watching the show, with these feelings amplified here. He seemed to have a life, identity, friends, outside of her, but she just kind of waited for him to come back. I loved seeing her grow at the Little Palace when she finally let go of Mal, and embraced who she is as a Grisha, started to have genuine friendships with Genya, Marie, Nadia, and hang around other Grisha. I loved her friendship with Genya so much. It was excellent growth in her, and I loved seeing it. I was a bit frustrated at the end, the way she kind of abandons everyone and runs off with Mal - on the one hand I get it - she doesn’t have the power to stop anything, and she’s saving Mal, but on the other hand, she abandoned a bunch of people to the Volcra, it’s not that heroic, but in a way, that makes it more interesting. I definitely think Alina’s major character flaw is her obsession with Mal, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she kind of regresses in the second book while with him. I generally like Alina, but at times she frustrates me. 

Mal / Malina:  Mal’s character is... not my favourite, but I don’t hate him at this point. At the start he’s a friend who has a life outside his friendship with Alina - he has other friends, an identity of his own, hobbies, etc. He gets pissed at Alina at the Little Palace for getting a boyfriend, basically, and makes his jealousy her problem. It’s fine that he didn’t initially have feelings for her - which probably has a lot to do with the fact that she was a sickly girl with no sense of self - but he made it her problem and was rude. He does at least apologize later and own up to it, but it’s obvious that her past with the Darkling is not a subject to discuss, which is really a shame, because... she should be able to discuss her feelings with her friend, but apparently, cannot. 

I know she’s supposed to have a crush on Mal, but I just don’t ship it. Normally a friends-to-lovers trope is one I can vibe with, in this case, I don’t. They grew up in an orphanage together, in the same household, so it really gives me brother/sister vibes. In fact, the first time I watched the show, I assumed that was how I was supposed to view them. I also can’t help but feel like... her crush on Mal is almost more told than shown. When Mal is introduced, I am told he has blue eyes. This was the extent of the description I had for a while, but as soon as the Darkling showed up... that was another description altogether. I don’t hate Mal at this point, and I don’t ship Malina.

The Darkling / Darklina: 

The Darkling has survived centuries and seen Grisha persecution, endless wars fought on behalf of the monarchy, and he wants to liberate Ravka. His methods? I don’t agree with, but his mission isn’t a bad one, so I understand why some Grisha and soldiers were cheering at the end for him. As I was reading, I was thinking “damn I wish these soldiers would get class consciousness and stop hating Grisha, realizing the King is really the enemy, as he makes them all fight for him!”. The Darkling tries to do just that here. He’s a villain from Alina’s POV (”Fine, make me your villain”), which I think is mostly an effect of 1st person POV - imagine reading these events from his POV. He isn’t a hero, he isn’t a good guy - I’d say antagonist yes, and morally grey.

As soon as Alina meets the Darkling, we get quite the description. His silky black hair, grey quartz eyes, sharp jaw. His strong arm catches her after the initial touch which she feels an immediate connection with (I know, I know, it’s because he’s a living amplifier - but still, all the “literally turns you on” jokes are too easy here!) Later we hear he has a soft voice, a laugh she loves, and she’s eager to impress him. She’s very actively thirsting for him in a way she didn’t really seem to do for Mal. When they kiss for the first time after months of dancing around it all, she noted that she’s been kissed before, but this was something else. There’s a major spark here. I think the feelings are mutual too. When Ivan turns a corner, he has a knowing smile. As a heartrender, Ivan would know if the Darkling seriously had 0 feelings, and in that moment with Ivan, it reads to me like Ivan knew. Later, of course, he gifts her the black Kefta, with his symbol necklace, which is like the Grishaverse equivalent of wearing your boyfriend’s sweater. He wants everyone to know they’re a thing. I think he was really sincerely hurt (and probably surprised by the hurt) when she ran off. She was growing, becoming comfortable as a Grisha, everything going well, and then she just left, no explanation, because his mother said some stuff. Yeah I’d be in pain too. I don’t condone his behaviour when he finds her again, not at all. I think his feelings are still there, as evidenced by the tent kiss, and they are mutual. Despite everything, there is still feelings, still a connection. Things aren’t over. I find myself still ultimately shipping it - even if there’s obviously problematic elements, because of what they initially had, what things can be - basically I just want Aleks to get some therapy, but I know that ain’t gonna happen lol.

Also, when the Darkling said “Can I come to you tonight”, Alina hesitated but my thirsty ass would have been like “Fuck yeah” in a heartbeat. Ben’s performance gave me a crush on his character (and actor) and is isn’t dissuaded here (though I dig show Darkling more as he’s more obviously grounded in humanity - again, probably a consequence of the show being 3rd person POV vs the book being 1st person POV). I am definitely pro Darkling and Darklina. 

Baghra:

Baghra is also morally grey to me. I neither hate nor love her. On the bad, she is an abusive instructor, hitting her students when they fail to perform, and she definitely chooses what information to give in a manipulative way. She does, however, ultimately help Alina, or in her mind she does, and Alina’s perspective too. She warns Alina about the Darkling, and helps her escape, saying she loves her son and doesn’t think he’s past redemption yet. On the other hand, by imparting this information here, now, Alina doesn’t get the chance to confront the Darkling and ask his side (which I find weird - she didn’t like Baghra, but immediately trusts her over her new boyfriend who has been by this point in the story only been shown to help her). It’s also rather frustrating when she calls Alina a “foolish girl” for being involved with the Darkling... like what the hell, it’s not like YOU SAID ANYTHING, FOR WEEKS/MONTHS!!!!! So yes, my feelings are neither pro or anti, just... she’s grey to me. I’ll need to see how she develops in future books to know where I stand.

Next Up: I will wait for season 2 to read the next one, so that I am thoroughly surprised by the show!

[aleksanderscult]

In TGT we don’t really get a lot of information about the consequences of merzost. The most we see (if I recall correctly) is Sasha looking weaker and Alina’s hair turning white. What do you think some of the additional physical and/or mental effects would be? When do you think Sasha first tried to dabble in that type of magic? I very much doubt the Fold was his first attempt. RoW talks about he convinced Baghra to take him to the remains of the building where Ilya and their family used to live, where Sasha found his journals. I’m fairly certain this was before he was the Darkling, although I’m not a complete 100% sure on that front.

Anyway, logistics of merzost aside, the guy needs to stop throwing himself into danger. He’s carving out pieces of his soul so he can save a persecuted minority and the “heroes” have the audacity to go “nooo… he just wants power.” I desperately wish we got Sasha POVs in TGT.

I personally believe that his first try was when he unwillingly created the Fold. Since merzost is very dangerous and requires years of training and mastery to be used properly, I don't imagine the Darkling putting it to use like it's nothing. I think he studied hard about it before he attempted to make his first try.

I don't think the Fold was created because of his greed either. It was created either because he did something wrong in the process or because there are always consequences when you use merzost. Alina faced consequences too but, in her case, in her appearance. Maybe because she tried to do something less grand than what Aleksander tried to do 400 years ago.

Normally it seems that merzost weakens you greatly and puts your health at risk. It causes you physical weakness, fatigue, physical and mental pain and generally drains you. You can lose your senses if you don't stop or it can even kill you.

(Aleksander must had been made of Valyrian stele. His physical capabilities were impressive for using it that much)

Aleksander paid the price the most so many centuries ago because he tried to use it for something big. He mentioned that he tried to stop the wars with it and I suspect that he wanted something more powerful than the nichevo'ya. So it's possible that the greater the extent in which you use it, the bigger the consequences are.

Now about the Black Heretic thing. I believe Baghra took him to her village long before he showed himself to the King and the world. But when he created the Fold he probably was already named "the Darkling" since the Black Heretic was considered one by the time the S&B events happened.

And you're so right, anon, but I wish more people could see that. Critical thinking is a trait that few people have and cannot see past the narrative's narrow and holy vision. He was selfless for doing that but he truly, for fuck's sake, needs to take better care of himself. 😭

[stromuprisahat]

I don't know if you've read Harry Potter, but if so, what do you think? Personally, I have a problem with grossophobia in books, as well as the way Lily Evans, Harry's mother, was written. The books completely shattered the visions I had of her in the movies. This female character is awful to me, in her treatment compared to Severus and James. How can you keep from laughing at your best friend, being harassed, head down and underwear out?

I've made myself read HP some sixteen? years ago... mostly so I'll be acquainted with it enough to criticize it, since I hate all those fashionable crazes, and I found them annoying and stupid already as a teen. I didn't particularly like it, with the exception of the third and the fifth book, and I've managed to finish the whole then-published series soon enough to witness the insanity that was publication of the last book (and guess enough of the story to genuinely hate the ending).

I've never re-read them, and I don't really intend to, although I have the series in Slytherin edition, because IT'S FUCKING SYLTHERIN BITCHES! and I have it whole in Czech once they published it with pretty covers, in case mum and my great-uncle decide to read it.

I know the books have plenty of issues, including stuff I wasn't thinking about while reading them, but honestly- the only good thing I took from them is that the Hogwarts Houses are fucking cool, and once I made my family do the official sorting tests, plenty of our relationships suddenly made sense. Oh, and wands! If you need to constantly carry around a phalic item, it better be a magical piece of wood!

As for Lily, I don't remember nearly enough about her, aside from her and Severus' relationship being both-sidedly toxic af, and Marauders being a bunch of assholes to specific students. That said, I also deeply despise Snape, because childhood bullying is no excuse to terrorize children (*cough* Baghra 2.0 *cough*).

Also, me being over thirty put some things into a perspective. Fighting the Dark Lord in teens, early twenties- why not, getting a job after school is no less terrifying-, but why the hell was everyone pregnant immediatelly?!

[hiraeth-witch-11]

The Greed of Men Part 5

Warnings: canon typical shit, Katya being a feisty little shit

Word count: 1600ish

The next morning you are shown to your rooms. They aren’t as opulent as Alina’s, but you prefer them this way. The bed is still too soft, the sheets too smooth, the pillows too plump, but you force yourself to use them anyway. The wardrobe is stocked with functional clothing and 2 black coats that feel suspiciously like corecloth. You’d like to complain about the color, or at least about the assumption in making most of your clothing black, but it really does suit you, so you hold your tongue.

The next few days are relatively monotonous. Alina trains and you follow her around as often as you can. Usually watching from a distance so she doesn’t feel you hovering. She knows you’re there, though, and will wave when she catches your eye. The change in her hasn’t ceased to amaze you. It’s been so long since she seemed truly healthy and now, all of the sudden, she’s grown and strong and powerful in ways you had only ever been able to dream of for her.

Alina’s confidence is yet another thing you are happy to see improve. She is more sure of herself, of her place in the world, more comfortable in her own skin. You’ll never admit it, but you are grateful to the Darkling for keeping her safe and helping her grow. Arguably much of that change has come from Botkin and Baghra, but you catch the General checking in on her every now and then. Offering words of support, constructive criticism, and even praise. 

You still think he should at the very least be stabbed for this flirtation he has with your sister. She’s far too young for him. For now, you have decided to let the fragile peace remain between the 3 of you. You’ll save the stabbing for another day. So long as he keeps his hands to himself, you will allow him to keep his hands.

Today, you are observing Alina spar with a particularly skilled squaller, one you’ve noticed scowling in Alina’s direction frequently. You’re nearby this time, making small conversation with Botkin.

“Do you fight?”

“Often,” you reply with a grin. He gestures to the training field and you shake your head. “I couldn’t impose on you like that.”

“You are afraid.” Botkin states and you have the feeling he’s mocking you.

“It wouldn’t be fair for your students.”

“You would deny them the chance to learn?”

You watch the squaller knock your sister on her ass for the 3rd time today and shrug. “When you put it that way, I guess I have to do it now.”

“Who do you choose?”

“Who’s your best?”

“Zoya.” The squaller sparring with Alina looks up at his words.

“Perfect,” you say sincerely.

The two of you enter the circle drawn in the dirt.

“Kick her ass, Kat,” Alina says in your ear as you pass her. You smirk. This should be fun. Saints know you need some stress relief.

“I do have a few years on you, squaller. I’ll go easy on you.” You can’t resist the urge to taunt Zoya.

“From what I’ve heard, you’re a no-name street rat. I don’t expect it to be much of a fight.” 

You smile thinly, but you aren’t bothered by her words, and strike first. It’s more of a warning shot than anything, you are unsurprised when she dodges it. Zoya swings a fist towards your jaw and you block it with your left forearm, throwing a punch with your right fist. This one lands and she grimaces, recovering quickly, stepping closer to you and hooking a leg around your own in an attempt to throw you. You let her, but use the momentum of the move to continue rolling the two of you until you land atop her, hand resting on her throat.

“Good match,” you offer your hand out once the two of you are standing.

Zoya ignores it and hisses,” Beginner’s luck.”

“If you wanted a rematch, you only had to ask,” you quip with a shrug.

“Ms. Starkov,” The General calls from Botkin’s side. You and Alina both look towards him. “The elder Ms. Starkov.”

“Saved by your General, princess. Next time I won’t go so easy on you.” The look Zoya gives you might be strong enough to kill a lesser woman. 

You join the General and ask, “What do you need? Sir.” You add the ‘sir’ for the sake of appearances and because you know the Darkling will hear its sarcasm.

“Come take a walk with me, Ms. Starkov.”

You wait until the 2 of you are a safe distance away to begin your usual banter. “Are we going to have another one of our ‘chats’ where you ‘don’t’ try to kill me?”

“Baghra is aware of your ability,” the Darkling said, ignoring you.

“You mean you told her,” you say pointedly.

“Yes. She would like to meet you.”

“Oh, excellent,” you say with glee.

The Darkling turns to you with a raised eyebrow. “That is not the reaction I was expecting.”

“I heard she hits students with her cane, swarms them with bees, and other various tortures. I can’t wait to see what she tries with me.” There’s a skip in your step as you turn yourself around so you walk backwards as you speak with the General. “When does she want to meet me?”

“Now,” the Darkling says.

“Today is turning out great!” You exclaim, clapping your hands. “Oh come on, why are you looking at me like that? I like fucking with bullies. It’s one of my favorite, mostly legal, pastimes.”

“I look forward to hearing how it goes, Ms. Starkov,” he says and you swear he’s trying not to smile.

“You aren’t coming with?” You ask as you arrive by Baghra’s hut.

“Your… conversation with Baghra will likely be more productive without my presence. She and I do not see eye to eye on most things.”

“Really? You don’t get along with someone? That’s super surprising.”

“Very amusing, Ms. Starkov,” the General says dryly.

“I try,” you grin and give him a wink before stepping into the hut and closing the door behind you.

The woman in front of you is both ancient and ageless. Her skin is mostly smooth, but her hair is graying, and her eyes have a depth to them that only time can give.

“Have a seat, girl.”

“You wanted to talk with me,” you prompt as you sit across from her.

“Have some tea,” Baghra orders more than offers.

“I’m good, thanks.”

“Hm. So you are the woman who claims to be the Sun Summoner’s sister. I must admit, I fail to see the resemblance.”

“We aren’t related by blood, but we are family.”

“I see. You’ve known her for 10 or so years now, and you’ve never told her about your summoning. It sounds like you don’t trust her very much, for family.”

“So this is your angle then?” You roll your eyes. “Trying to drive a wedge between me and Alina, getting into my head. Very original. Do you have any family, Baghra?”

“This conversation is not about me, girl.”

“My name is Katarina, not girl, and this conversation is very much about you. What is it about you that is so broken you want to break everyone else?”

“How dare you?” Baghra spits out sternly.

“Quite easily. If this little chat doesn’t have a real purpose, then I am going to leave.”

Baghra’s posture relaxes slightly. “You aren’t what I expected.”

“Good.”

“The General tells me you are an adequate shadow summoner.”

“Does he really? High praise coming from him.”

“He also tells me you claim to be self taught.”

“I am self taught, unless you know any other shadow summoners besides the Darkling running around Ravka, I didn’t really have any other option.”

“You taught yourself the Cut.”

“Yes.”

“Shadow-walking?”

“Yes.”

“Simultaneous, multi-limbed movement?”

“Yes.”

“Shields, walls, and barriers?”

“I’m still working on those,” you admit.

“Intriguing. I will teach you from now on.”

“No you won’t.”

“Why not?”

“Because I don’t like you and I think you are a duplicitous snake,” you respond cheerfully. While Alina may not have picked up on the depths of Baghra’s manipulative nature, you can tell this woman has about a thousand personal agendas just by looking at her. Much like the General, though you find Baghra to be more off putting. 

“You don’t know me, girl.”

“I trust my instincts.”

“Do you truly believe the Darkling to be a superior instructor? That he does not have any ulterior motives for everything he says and does?”

“Oh I’m certain he does.”

“Very well. I will not force you to stay.”

“Good, I don’t do very well with being forced into things.” With that, you get up and leave. You’re surprised to see the General still waiting for you on the other side of the door.

“You’re still here.”

“That was quicker than I expected.”

“Were you expecting me to drink the drugged tea?” 

The Darkling looks surprised. “I was not aware you knew about her tea drugging habits.”

“Alina told me. Don’t you think allowing her to beat, terrorize, and drug your soldiers is a bit much?”

“I admit some of her methods may be extreme at times, but they are effective.”

“If you have to harm a child to teach them, then maybe you aren’t a good teacher.”

“The world my Grisha grow up in is not good or fair, Ms. Starkov. They are in danger from the moment their abilities manifest. Sometimes cruel and extreme measures are needed to prepare them for that reality.”

“It shouldn’t be that way. Grishenka are training to be soldiers from the moment they arrive. No one should have to be concerned about war that young.”

“No, they shouldn’t,” the Darkling agrees, solemnly. “One day, Grisha will no longer need to fear the world around them. They will no longer live to be soldiers.”

“I hope I live to see that day,” you say earnestly.

“You will, Ms. Starkov.”

**********

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Series Taglist: budugu, stuffyownswrld, judig92, intothesoul

Shadow and Bone Taglist:

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[grishaverse-chaos]

there's a post going round about the way the darkling interacts with the world being influenced by women and specifically baghra having to navigate a patriarchy and I actually have a hot take on this because I don't disagree

but specifically, I think his politics are influenced by what we would now recognise as radfem beliefs about feminism/patriarchy, and idk if leigh bardugo did that on purpose!

unfortunately, his fans carry that rhetoric over into their analysis of him + of Ravka as a whole, and it's been pissing me off

the idea that all otkazat'sya are evil and bigoted inherently....... people saying that the first and second armies could never be integrated....... sounds kind of familiar........

(honestly I see this more in fandom than in canon actually, so, you know, darkling fans please think critically about what you're saying lmao)

[ineffeblygay]

Is this my third post in a day about the same god damn trailer? Yes it is, and y’all are just gonna have to deal with it bc I have questions that need answering.

1. How does kaz know about the nichevo'ya

2. Is it just me or does Nadia’s actress look different? Or is that not Nadia? Or is it a different actress?

3. Why is Baghra telling Alina to go find the firebird? Unless- does Baghra not know that her father used merzost to resuscitate her sister, thus making her the third amplifier? I thought Baghra knew??

4. Why the mass deviation from cannon (taken from Novy’i Zem, escape overseas, kill sea whip, go to ravka, etc)? Why are the fire bird and sea whip being hunted at the same time?

5. Who on earth is Kaz fighting? At first I thought I spotted a kefta but it’s def not that. Few are proposing dime lions but it’s far too early for that fight.

6. Why are Kaz and Tolya meeting? What is going on with all these cannon deviations? Is this what the Twitter critic was talking about?

7. What’s that room full of bones & taxidermy that Inej is in?

8. What the fuck happened to Kaz’s cane? It looks like it’s been dented six ways to sunday

9. Reoccurring question on my part but I can’t let it go: in what I presume is the chapel scene after the incident at Nikolai’s birthday dinner, there are people there that were not there in the books. Aka: Kaz, Jesper, Wylan (notably clinging to jes, #wesper forever), and Nikolai. WHY ARE THEY HERE AND WHERE IS MAL? I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, I may not be the biggest fan of Mr. Oretsev but that doesn’t change the fact that if my memory serves me right, HE’S PRETTY FUCKING IMPORTANT IN THIS HERE SCENE.

10. What in god’s good name is the significance of that blue butterfly, if any? And where is Wylan? What is this place he’s in?

11. Who’s getting it on in that one scene?? WHY? Because I can guarantee now is not the time nor the place- oh nvm it’s Mal & Alina. Finally paused it at the right angle. CRAP is this that scene (seige and storm vision scene where the darkling appears in a vision as mal)?

12. Why do the Darkling’s grisha have altered kefta’s? Two of them - in that scene where he’s about to preform the cut - have this sort of teal & red kefta with a different shade of red than the og corporalki one, one has dark red and what may be dark purple? Prolly a fabricator of sorts, someone has teal and green and only one has the traditional red and blue kefta (healer I believe, I may be remembering wrong though). In the background, a teal/green and black kefta is spotted. What do these new keftas mean? And alongside that, what is the golden emblazoning signifying on the darkling’s kefta?

13. Who the hell is Inej fighting? Too early for Dunyasha, plus dunyasha wears white and they fought on silo’s and roofs. In this scene, they fight in an enclosed space on the ground and this person is wearing a yellow and pink dress, something from Shu Han, maybe a Suli dress? The enclosure looks Shu but it’s dark so idk.

14. What the hell happened to the fold? In a scene, Inej and Zoya are about to fight some shadow bitches and they’re outside the same place the fold was formed. You can tell from the gargoyles (ssn 1, part where they showed how the fold was made: shows a building w those same gargoyles). In this scene tho, there’s no darkness, no fold. Just that sand we read about in king of scars and rule of wolves. Leigh said we were getting Seige and Storm and SOME of Ruin and Rising, so what the hell is this??

15. More of a statement/plead than a question but: SOMEONE PLEASE GET MY BABY OUT OF THE WATER. He’s hydrophobic. At least know we know what prompts his flashbacks, what about Jesper’s though? We can’t forget Aditi was casted meaning Colm most likely was as well so how do we see lil jes’s tale?

Ok that’s it, love y’all byeeee :3

[theweeklydiscourse]

Sometimes I think about the way that the Darkling is openly distrusted and perceived as a dark and shadowy figure even within the little palace. To me, this detail undermines one of the messages the story attempts to communicate about how looks can be deceiving and how powerful (good-looking) men can get away with abuse.

It is important to consider the contents of Shadow and Bone prior to the reveal and subsequent descent into cartoonish villainy that occurs in later chapters. The early chapters should be establishing the Darkling as someone who can exploit and manipulate with impunity due to either privilege, a good reputation in the community, or his role as an authority figure. However, you get the impression that the Darkling isn’t well-liked or even trusted enough to accomplish such a task.

This is in part due to the lack of details provided about the culture and social aspects of the Little Palace, but readers are frequently shown examples of the Darkling’s reputation as a dark figure. He is shrouded in rumours of the occult (ex. When Genya informed Alina that there was a rumour that he had fed her his blood) which speaks to a sense of uneasiness felt by those around him. When Alina tells him that she thought the meeting she would have with him might involve torture, he frowns and tells her that he’s not a monster unlike what she “might have heard”. A line that implies that this is a view held by individuals other than Alina.

On paper, the Darkling has qualities common amongst abusers. However, the story fails to use these qualities in a subversive way that would accurately convey the insidious nature of abuse, and what it takes to get away with it. You see this on display when you place him beside the likes of villains like Makima or Akio Ohtori, two villains who were trusted by most people around them barring a few exceptions that knew the truth. Both of these examples manipulated more people than just the main characters of their respective stories, and that is essential to understanding why Shadow and Bone failed.

If his good looks play a role is his ability to manipulate, then the text needs to actually show me that through character interactions rather than inserting that meaning retroactively. Does he seduce people? If so, who is it that he’s seducing or swaying with his charm? What is he accomplishing by using his beauty as a tool to achieve his goal of power and control?

If he’s an authority figure with a lot of influence and power, show me how he uses or abuses that authority. The minute that Baghra started raising objections to his plan regarding the Stag, he should’ve removed Alina from her student position immediately (something he would’ve had the power to do). He could’ve moved Alina closer to him so he would have more access to her and be able to exert his influence over her.

There were possibilities, they just weren’t acted upon.

[greensaplinggrace]

🔥 Aleksander's mommy issues and if that plays a role in his relationships

I will say until I die that aleksander's relationships with others are defined by his relationship with immortality and thus with his mother - who not only taught him everything about it, but who has also been the only consistent presence in his life for over four hundred years. this is the woman that developed an emotionally codependent and incestuous relationship with him as well as groomed him into the type of man she would wish to have a partnership with, which further defines the ways he views himself, the world, other people, and his connections to them.

all of this correlates to his many relationships, but especially his romantic one with alina. he mirrors his traumas with his mother and therefore with eternity in his dynamic with her. he is simultaneously the perpetrator and the victim. where he spent hundreds of years forgiving his mother for her abuse of him because the alternative is eternal loneliness, he expects of alina the same level of forgiveness for his actions based on that same latent despair - because he was taught at a fundamental age that a dichotomy exists in the universe, and the only way to find anything good at all - safety or happiness or connection - is to center all needs around the threat of inevitable punishment. not punishment in any physical sense, but punishment at a transcendental level.

the reason baghra did this was to groom him. the reason any parent does this (and it is especially prevalent with religion and cults) is to control their children and guide them toward the ideal path (which is always the path they themselves are on).

like most abusive relationships, baghra relies on cult tactics to develop a dynamic with her son that erodes all boundaries and erases any attempt at creating them further down the line - effectively taking ownership of his personhood and growth. she redefines his emotional associations to link them all to herself, and she even takes possession of his body in a variety of ways, until she has molded the perfect partner. one who shares all of her values and so will never leave her side - and who is entirely and completely isolated through both a lack of consistently stable connections and the lack of ability to create them.

baghra has always, after all, had her control threatened most by two things when it comes to her son: his idealism - which drives his moral compass away from her - and his desire for other connections. which means that to truly have him as a partner, she must take control of these narratives herself. so, she must destroy his ability to connect, and she must mold his morals to fit alongside her own. meaning constant and consistent contact with him and every part of his life.

similarly, we see even this reflected in aleksander's dynamic with alina. aleksander attempts to relate to her in the only way he knows how: by exerting control and by guiding her down the path he is on - by claiming to know what is best for her. in the exact same way baghra has continually tried to repossess him throughout the years by leading him down the 'best path for him' - one that she defines as redemption through inaction. one that she knows could allow her to control him again through reestablishing his existential relationship with punishment, loss, loneliness, and fear.

she seeks to do this because she needs him walking beside her again, easily pliable. because while time has furthered him from her, she is at least still in his life holding some of the reins, but nothing has threatened her grasp on her son as much as another prospective partner. one that won't harm him the way she has and one that could easily reveal exactly how much of himself he has lost to his mother in her claims about living eternally. one that could prove to be a real, stable relationship for him - unraveling all of the threads she so carefully wound.

like baghra did with him, aleksander fosters a codependent relationship with alina, because he was taught that such a relationship is the only way to survive immortality (and that this is how relationships work at all). he desires alina to be his immortal companion, in the same way his mother desired him, because he longs - probably without realizing - for a relationship that is not defined by constant abuse. but he has none of the resources to break free of the cycle of abuse, because he cannot even conceptualize that the things baghra taught him are abusive.

everything baghra taught him, he repeats to alina. every lesson about immortality, he repeats to alina. the possessiveness which defines his relationship with his mother - the ways she controls his interactions with others and isolates him completely - this he mirrors also with alina. because the only framework he possesses for a long-lasting connection is his relationship with his mother, and he is so starved for real connection that he craves it.

he craves it because baghra made him crave it. because she starved him of affection and made him reliant upon her as his sole provider for it. then she destroyed any other source he might find. she did this because she wanted to ensure he would always come back to her and forgive her. additionally, they are in the position of being entirely unique, which only further provides another tool for abuse. it is so so easy to neatly isolate someone when they are already othered completely and have no reliable means of long-term connection but you. it is so so easy to starve someone and lead them to believe they are gorging themselves when there is no other source of sustenance.

but then comes alina. who is also immortal. and who is quite capable of not only walking down aleksander's path, but having aleksander walk down hers. and alina will give aleksander the sustenance he needs. alina will give a long-lasting relationship with real happiness and affection and touch and love. alina will make him realize that the ways he tries to fulfill his cravings - the ways baghra taught him - are wrong.

which brings the situation to the plot.

alina's moral conflict is falsely dichotomized into two things:

a) kill the 'monster' and believe the true social issues that caused it can be solved through inaction.

or b) give in to the latent 'evil' that comes with being grisha, reveling in power, greed, and selfishness.

baghra as the author's mouthpiece supports the former, which means alina's 'enlightenment' must eventually follow this path - for the true moral message to be conveyed. and this path leads her away from the darkling. thus, it is inevitable within such a narrative that she would have to do so.

however, contextually, baghra's actions when putting alina on this path are those of an abuser losing control of their victim. while she operates within a narrative role, she acts in a way that is easily identifiable. the very specific way in which baghra confronts aleksander's relationships with others in both the books and the show (especially his relationship with alina) is that of someone who wishes to remove outside influences from the perfectly tailored environment of their victim. if alina begins to trust aleksander and start a relationship with him, then this environment will be disrupted - possibly destroyed - and he will be removed from baghra's influence forever. baghra, as an eternally lonely person, cannot let this happen.

but she has a new way of living, now. one that her son rejects, because he is finally trying to become his own person and create his own path. so, she molds alina into exactly what she is and ties alina to her completely, effectively ruining her son's chances for any connection outside of her ever again. not only that, but she severs any future attempts at connection between them by taking control of the narrative about aleksander. meaning alina will defer to baghra about him, about morals, about what paths to walk and what actions to take. she will defer to her about anything that leads in aleksander's direction, because she must 1) do so for narrative purposes (and baghra is first and foremost the narrative compass) and 2) reject all associations with his character completely.

so aleksander is now trapped in an abusive cycle with both women, and the options are either alina, who is not only his abuser’s mouthpiece, but someone who has been cut off from any attempt at a connection with him completely. or his mother, who is in many ways relying on alina's treatment of him to drive him back into her arms.

aleksander, who cannot conceivably understand why he longs for another partner, must focus on alina. but as someone who was brutally stripped of any ability to connect healthily, he can only communicate with her one way - through possession, control, fear, and manipulation. and because she now erects the same barriers baghra does and walks the same path as her- well. the pattern of abuse continues.

so yeah. I think he mimics his relationship with baghra in his other relationships. he attempts to connect in the only ways he knows how, and when he tries to move outside of the box and connect in his own way, baghra intervenes. he is a centuries old abuse victim that will literally never gain the resources or outside connections required to develop healthy relationships. and sab is lauded as a narrative on the side of abuse survivors. lmfao.

send me a 🔥 for an unpopular opinion (x)

[where-theres-smoak-2]

Given Baghra's cynicism, I think for her to validate Darklina's love, even if it was done to criticize Aleks' poor choices, says a lot. She's not a romantic, nor did she ever seem to hold much regard for her son's past relationships (Sorry, Luda). But, she acknowledged what Aleks felt for Alina was real, and if he hadn't acted like an immortal dumbass, Darklina would have been together forever. She knew that Alina wanted a future together, and that her core hurt was that Aleks' collared her and used her as a tool, rather than have patience. I always said: The Darklina Tent Scene should have happened BEFORE the Stag Collar. Even Jessie said in an interview she believed Alina would have worked with Aleks if he told the truth and didn't use the Fold to attack all of Novokibrisk.

I agree I think it does say alot that Baghra validated darklina's love but the line is also interesting to me because it wasn't in the books. This is something they added purely for the show, along with the line in ep 7 about they could have had it all. It's really interesting to me that the show is adding these lines that affirm that darklina do love each other and have genuine feelings. I also agree that the tent scene should have happened before the stag collar, things could have been so different if it had because as I've said before, I really do think the stag collar was a result of several miscommunications and misunderstandings, a series of unfortunate events you might say. I also agree with Jessie that Alina likely would have worked with Aleks if he had told her the truth. Unfortunately he never got the chance to because of Baghra's interruption in 1x05.

[kor-ee-an-door]

But the craziest thing is that as "proof" that Aleksander is the Black Heretic, Baghra just shows Alina a painting of him that looks...relatively new. Maybe he just had it made and didn't like it? Alina's critical thinking skills are just so maddening in this series. Sure, she might have thought leaving was the best thing to do now, but she has so many allies in that castle other than the Darkling that it makes me so frustrated this is her knee-jerk reaction.

[nosankts]

It's only 7:30 am in the morning where I am but I can't sleep anymore and I feel the need to make this post.

When I say I don't want to see Baghra hate, I don't mean concrete criticism of her as a person or as a mother. Because she is definitely flawed in both capacities and definitely partially responsible for the man that her son became. What I mean I don't want to see is people saying she was abusive to Aleksander growing up (Demon in the Wood disproves this entirely) or see her vilified for doing what she can to stop him in the context of the trilogy or the show. Yes, this includes trying to kill him in the latter.

I can understand, to a degree, why some people would equate her doing what was RIGHT for the world means she WRONGED Aleksander. But she was ultimately trying to make up for HER part in this tragedy and choosing the side of good. And Aleksander happened to be the villain of the story, so, yes, that meant actively going against her own son. It's a complicated situation that shouldn't be watered down to her being a bad mother and THAT is what I don't want to see on my dash.

[aleksanderscult]

I think i remember leigh writing something along the lines of that 'wanted best for his people and he was a tyrant' etc, basically a nuanced view. Do you have it? I don't remember where it was.

I think you mean this, right?

It's from her acknowledgements on "Demon in the Wood" (graphic novel). If this is not what you mean, tell me.

She always gives a very nuanced characterization about him which makes me mad because I don't understand her point of view for him at all. It only confuses me more.

"I want the readers to make their assumptions about him. I don't want to affect their view of him". Look. If you give your own opinion of him which will consist of ten pages then it's going to be the reader's problem if they want to "adopt" your view or not. Also, your readers are not stupid. They can distinguish their own assumptions FROM your own opinion. And if they can't, then they're not fit to read books and complicated characters. It's called critical thinking. You take an opinion, read it, see if it makes sense with the canon we have from him and make your judgement. Easy peasy.

Now about that note. I agree that Aleksander isn't purely a hero or a villain. He sees himself as the hero while Alina and the others see him as the villain. We, the readers, mostly see him as something in-between and, at the same time, something entirely different. A human that has lived for too long and as a result of his immortality and tragic events he has reached a point of desperation that make him act relentlessly against the corrupt monarchy and in favor of a persecuted group of people and a country that he has lived and loved for almost all of his life.

Therefore, his characterization is (I believe) something more than the archetype of "good hero" and "bad villain".

Is he a survivor? Yup. In all the meaning of the word.

Does he want safety for his people? Isn't that why he didn't give up on life already? It was the ambition that drove him the most and kept his heart beating.

Is he a tyrant? I think that term needs to be studied. Back in Ancient Greece this word had different meanings.

1) A ruler who has usurped a legitimate ruler's sovereignty. The Darkling did that (good for him).

2) A person who rules without law, using extreme and cruel methods against both his own people and others. If Leigh means that then I'll have to disagree. First of all, we didn't see enough of the Darkling's rule to know if he was that cruel (unless she knows something we don't). And even from what we saw, it seems the word doesn't apply to him. He was sitting on the throne and listening to reports, signing paperwork, making an alliance with his enemy to feed his army. So where it the "cruel methods against both his own people and others" came from? He didn't have a beef with otkazat'sya that lived in Ravka and he certainly didn't want to hurt his own Grisha (unless they committed treason). So Leigh just threw that word in like it was nothing.

And, lastly, he brutalizes and exploits those who trust him most.

Brutalizes. Hmm....

Genya: she committed treason so he punished her.

Sergei: he committed treason so he punished him.

Baghra: committed treason so he punished her (and very lightly actually).

Yeah.. right...umm. Look. If he had attacked them or killed them for literally no reason then I would say "Yes, he brutalized them". But there was always a reason for his actions against them. He didn't see Genya on board and said "I'm bored. Gonna ruin your face 'cause I've got nothing else to do".

And he exploits them.

To exploit someone is this:

If my memory serves me correct, his soldiers (his Grisha) knew what they were serving him for. And he didn't use them for something completely selfish like "gaining power for myself because I like it" but he needed power to make Ravka better. So he didn't do it for selfish reasons.

The one instance where the term "exploit" may apply is when he gave Genya to the Grand Palace knowing what a pervert the King was. But then again, wasn't the Queen's responsibility to keep her safe?

[stromuprisahat]

Wait... I just read the news about the Darkling and... How come he could pass for a Shu?! Wtf?! OK. This information is just awesome, and it's outrageous that we've ever had fanart to represent this aspect of the character. But also... Why was it never named in the original trilogy? Are you going to tell me that no one would criticize this aspect of the Darkling's appearance when he is extremely feared and already talked to death about his back because of his nature as a summoner of darkness? Nobody said anything about him looking like the enemy too? The grishas, ​​okay. In the book, grishas are simply judged as grishas and not Fjerda or Shu. But for non-Grishas it's a different story. Also, it's a Leigh Bardugo thing to retrospectively change details about her characters. Here we have the Darkling which looks like a Shu. But in the King's of Scars duology Zoya suddenly becomes a character of color when it seems to me that she was white in the original trilogy. And then, Alina has no official age in the trilogy, but must surely have been around 18 or more in volume 1 (if we try to calculate), but who is however changed in the other volumes to say that no she was only 18 when she "died" although the author specifies that she was a minor in volume 1 to reinforce his stupid idea of ​​an Alina victim of the Darkling as much as possible.

Aleksander is easily explainable. He's mentioned to be "able to pass as Shu", which doesn't necessarily mean he'll look like a "typical" citizen. He's dark-haired, fluent in the language... since Ravka has a long, turbulent history with Shu-Han, there will be disputable areas and its inhabitants, who look accordingly. DitW comics solved it elegantly, by making Baghra tan, therefore Aleksander would be assumed to be a product of mixed marriage.

Zoya is a simple collecting of wokie points. Alina never forgets to mention POCs, so the girl, who's been bullying her (and fucked her not-bf) would certainly be more than just "stunningly beautiful". Zoya from the pre-KoS fanarts "approved" by the author was pale, Zoya from the official art for KoS is visibly tan, yet she's described as not-Suli looking?! She's Suli out of nowhere, while for other characters it would cover at least 40 % of their description [See: Paja, the Alkemi in S&S].

As for Alina's age, there have been posts counting it, saying it's okay, there have been others counting it is not corresponding... I might get to read them properly, I think I have at least two saved in drafts, but I don't really care enough rn. Alina in show had been aged-up, and while it didn't help her maturity, it certainly didn't save us from fandom police calling Aleksander a paedo groomer, so...