#btvs discourse

[greensaplinggrace]

the fact that buffy's acceptance of spike is so closely tied to her acceptance of herself is so fucking important and people will really dismiss that with a bunch of half assed media analysis like do you think they realize their comprehension sucks so bad

[loseremzo]

Ats completely ruined Spike as a serious character. Because as someone who loves Spike, and loved him in ats, I believe he was purely brought in to please fans and get them (btvs lovers who never watched or cared for ats) to watch ats. In the process completely destroying any amount of character he had. They got rid of the depths and multitudes in Spikes character and use him as a motivator and obstacle for Angel. Rarely do we ever see his vulnerability or his overall thoughts or feelings on things that happen to him in btvs+ats. And by rarely I mean only when he was with Fred, which ended when he became corporeal because I swear they never really had scenes together after that.

In btvs one could break down Spike’s character into two parts (simply. he is a character of layers), fighter and lover. Demon and Man, Vampire and Poet, Fighter and Lover. And in season seven he is trying to learn where the line is because before the soul there was no line. The fighter part of him and the lover part of him overlapped and hence the unhealthy love he has for Buffy. In the beginning of season seven we see that the line is now drawn but instead of towing that line he stands straight on the lover side and this is addressed by Buffy in S7E15 Get It Done, when he doesn’t fight the demon for Anya and Buffy tells him to stop being a pussy bitch and get his shit together. He has stopped relishing the fight, ignoring the fighter/demon in him because of the past chaos and bloodshed. Then he finds his coat (another thing taken away in ats) risks his mental wellbeing by going to the school basement where he went insane due to The First, a powerful being that still has some control over him with the trigger and he had just gotten out of the grasps of. He starts relying on the fighter side of him because that’s what Buffy wanted, until S7E20 Touched where he comforts her, explains his love for her, and holds her. Then in the next episode when they confront each other about it he tells her to forget it. That it was a malfunction, trying to reassure her that the fighter is still there, that he can still fight by her side. He found the line and walks along it, choosing which moments to let out the fighter or the lover. And that is gone in ats. Watching season seven of btvs compared to season five of ats, that characters are different in the sense that Spike has been dumbed down to the stereotypical sarcastic comedic relief whom annoys the main character and causes problems.

I loved that he was brought back (probably because when he died I’m pretty sure I like snapped, and almost collapsed in my kitchen and shit. so biased) But they should have kept the noncoporeal storyline but after that let him go be with Buffy. Which obviously would have never happened because Whedon was a dick and hated Spike and women, and wanted Angel to still have some hope with Buffy and keep fans on the edge with the love triangle.

[angelofthe2000s]

Buffy reboot please do not revive the Bangel vs Spuffy argument I am so tired

[firelxdykatara]

I think part of what frustrates me about age gap discourse with respect to BTVS specifically is that framing Buffy's relationship with Angel as 'grown man preys on teenage girl' requires that you ignore everything about the context of the show, the context that their relationship occurs within, and also what it means for both of them as characters and for the show as a whole.

It's also just like, really boring?

Like before you get to any of the story reasons why that's just a stupidly reductive analytical framework, you have to start with this: in a story aimed at teenagers, the fantasy is of being special and desired by a sexy immortal, and because the story is aimed at teenagers, the main characters are (or start as) teenagers, since the coming of age narrative that underpins everything else doesn't work without it. Hard to tackle that transition from adolescence to adulthood with a main character who begins the series as an adult!

(And it's not as if coming of age stories for adults don't exist. Phoebe Halliwell is a very good example--unlike her older sisters, she starts off unemployed and kind of adrift and desperate to find a purpose, which she ultimately does as a witch and a Charmed One, and all of this is done while she, as the youngest, is in her early twenties at the series start, because the show is primarily aimed at adults.)

And the thing is, Angel isn't just some adult man preying on a highschooler for kicks because he can't find women his own age. As Angelus, he spent well over a century enamored with Darla and committing wanton slaughter and destruction by her side. As Angel, with the exception of Buffy, all of his love interests are adults, and his love for Buffy is not tied to her youth, innocence, or naivete, considering that it links and binds them so completely that they keep crossing in and out of each other's lives through the end of Buffy's show, with the door explicitly open for a future relationship once Buffy's finished baking.

What draws Angel to Buffy--and what makes their relationship so dangerously compelling and also ultimately spells its downfall as, within the text of the show, it is explicitly a tragedy--is the fact that she's the Slayer.

That's the key point--her status as the Chosen One! He is drawn to her (as all vampires are, to a greater or lesser extent, but it's no accident that her only other truly earth shattering romantic relationship in the series is with another vampire) because she's the Slayer, and because of the soul he was cursed to bear and the guilt he feels for the evil he committed as a vampire, he wants to protect and save her as part of his atonement. He falls in love with her because she brings light back into the darkness he has been cast into since being forced to bear a soul even as a monster. And he would be 241 years old whether he was turned as a teenager and could pass as one of her peers or turned at 26 (the show is inconsistent on the age at which he was turned and it really doesn't matter, since the buffyverse never tries to pretend vampires are 'frozen' at the age they're turned anyway), and yes, part of what is darkly compelling about their relationship is that the age difference is obvious (Sarah Michelle Gellar was 20 and David Boreanaz was 28 during season 1), but the reason Angel being an 'older man' is never considered super relevant (aside from a few lampshades) is because... it really isn't.

The important thing, the critical thing, the thing that matters in the context of their relationship is that Angel is a vampire. That's why when Angel pulls out his 'I'm 241, you're 16' spiel it rings so hollow--because that doesn't really matter to either of them and he knows it. He's trying to push her away because it's the only way he can really protect her, and even then it doesn't work, and they all suffer for it horribly, Buffy most of all. (And even then she can't stop loving him, nor he her, and that makes it all the more tragic when he realizes the only thing he can do for her is leave.)

Also, it really throws into sharp relief the fact that people care so much about Buffy being a teenage girl when it comes to her romantic relationships but not at all when it comes to her being fated to die. Something the show itself is also quite critical of, because that's part of the point--being the Slayer is an awful burden that none of them have ever had a choice but to bear, and Buffy was supposed to die at sixteen years old. The only reason she survives is because she broke the rules by trying to have a normal life in addition to being the Slayer, which is the only reason she has friends to help her and save her, and I'm supposed to look at all of that and care that her broody vampire bf was a 'grown man' when he was turned? Really?

I don't think so. You can't just be willing to take what the show says for itself at face value when it comes to all the fighting and killing and dying but then balk when it comes to sex. That just doesn't work for me. (I mean, you can, and a lot of people do, but it's frustrating, hence this post.)

[sunshiny-rants]

if you find yourself getting caught up in fandom drama and not enjoying the thing you love as much because of it, my most genuine suggestion beside touching grass is go follow more artists. go follow an artist that draws a ship you don’t usually interact with, or who makes a lot of oc art, or interprets a character different than you do. just find an artist with a cool art style that you enjoy, and you’ll find yourself not really caring that you don’t ship those characters or that you don’t interpret that character that way, cause you just appreciate the art.

basically, if you don’t wanna touch grass, go appreciate some good fuckin fandom art

[mistigrisunshine]

yes spike is pathetic but he’s also really fucking cool. yes both at the same time. hope that helps

[smallboyonherbike]

i've said this before but when bangel vs spuffy comes across my dash in 2025 it's actually so funny to me. like i was witnessing actual bloodbaths over this on LJ in the 2000s and i say this as someone who prefers spike, there's simply no point. i've seen the wildest most opposite of me wrong opinions on btvs and in the end you just gotta go lol whatever. also i used to loathe angel but crucially he can be soooo funny in the edward cullen type way. also fuffy is the ultimate OTP like pleeeeease

[winepresswrath]

Darla/Angelus is also great because the show has a competing designated OTP and they exist to serve as contrast and hateful competition to THE ship. they are soulless monsters even by the standards of soulless monsters, they literally make the other soulless monsters go "yikes... your relationship seems not good maybe." but they love each other so fucking much. the writers can't help it. they are constantly trying to find their way back to each other. the way she hits him over a head with a shovel and leaves him to an angry mob while he tries to say he doesn't mind dying if it's with her AND the way they coo about it to each other afterwards. the way she takes him back against her better judgement because she missed him so so much but then kicks him out again later because he still can't be who she needs him to be. that's just how they say i love you.

[greensaplinggrace]

i'm sorry but i'm a buffy apologist at heart y'all are wild if you think her reaction as a literal teenager to faith's accidental murder of an innocent was in any way wrong or bad. in what universe.

[loseremzo]

im reading the scrip for BTVS 6X15 and Sam, Riley’s wife, exists for literally no purpose other then for j*ss wh*don wanting to be a fucking bitch to Buffy. Like look what you can’t have now, look what you gave up blah blah blah. THEY DIDNT BREAK UP BECAUSE OF HER!!! HE FUCKING CHEATED AND BLAMED FOR ALL THIS EXTERNAL SHIT THAT SHE DIDNT ASK FOR AND ALL HIS INTERNAL FUCKING FEELLINGS!!!!

Anyway Sam. Based on the script, cause I haven’t actually watched the episode in awhile, literally comes in to help capture the demon and tell of Riley for not explaining the mission to Buffy which makes Buffy feel bad that she killed the demon cause RILEY DOESNT FUCKING EXPLAIN SHIT AND DOESNT EVEN TELL HER ABOUT HIS WIFE EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE LIKE SUPER CLOSE AND SHE CHANGES NEXT TO HIM IN CAR??? But Sam is the chill girl who doesn’t get insecure or care. Then she literally does nothing the rest of the episode. She gives Xander wedding advice and patrols with Buffy. SHES LITERALLY SOMEONE WE ARE JUST SUPPOSED TO ATTACH TO RILEY. I FORGOT WHAT HER FUCKING NAME WAS KINDA SHIT.

Like I get it. Gave him a wife to further Buffy’s development or healing and break up her and Spike. Whatever. But could you not do more with her character. Make her some actual badass instead of just getting one fight. She wasn’t even there in the end for the actual egg stuff, which was also her mission. But Riley didn’t bring her along. Cause he knew shit was gonna go down with Buffy and that they were still gonna have that weird tension. Anyway, once a cheat always a cheat. Especially when it had barely been a year and they were married. Like he didn’t even grow as a person before he was married. He married like his rebound.

In case you couldn’t tell I hate Riley.

[aahsoka]

i dont like spike or angel hate bc its always like ‘this one did something worse than the other’ like they were both serial killers . they both did questionable shit with and without souls. i dont uhhhhh care. im operating on fantasy supernatural show rules both of these guys would suck objectively irl but theyre not real. why are u watching the show about fucked up people who save the world and date fucked up guys (gender neutral) and complaining about the fucked up guys they date. stop putting ur fave on a pedestal by calling the other one a creep or whatever they are the Same. also they are kissing each other on the mouth.

[blush-and-books]

look im not done with the series but it's killing me that the publicly released reasoning for jenny's death is that the writers wanted to prove that anyone could die at any time and that death can be final, yet they continue to add a fucking ton of new characters and haven't killed a single one since. 😀

[vampirismadvocate]

“How could you like/forgive this character!!! They did awful things!!!”

My man didn’t do anything. He’s not real. He was just written that way.

[all-seeing-ifer]

at some point in my life i should probablyyyyyy unpack just how badly being on tumblr during peak ace discourse years fucked me up bc i would dearly like to just move on and forget that shit ever happened but unfortunately it's literally Always There. it's the reason i'm Like This on here. and sometimes i'll think to myself "now why do i always feel so uncomfortable and unwelcome and on edge in queer spaces / online spaces / fandom spaces etc etc" and then think about what the answer to that question might Possibly be and go Oh. Yeah. That thing. really this is probably something i should talk about with like a counsellor or something but well how the hell am i even meant to explain any of this to anyone who wasn't a terminally online 16 year old in 2017.

[spikes-left-eyebrow]

My unpopular fandom take is that personally i could never truly be an anti of anything. Like i recently made a post kinda bashing the early writing of angel (the guy) and people have tagged it anti, which is fine! But it really wasnt intended that way. Like I have certainly reblogged things that qualify as 'anti' but personally i gotta ask myself whats the point of just... hating such a huge character? Like going with the example of angel, theres definitely shit i do not like about him but also hes there for half of btvs and all of ats and i really like him in ats! I think the writers just didnt do him justice like 90% of the time he was on buffy. Anyway. I think we should all be more chill about our blorbos receiving criticism bc i love to criticize and so many ppl dont realize i am doing it with so much love in my heart!!!

[marigoldbaker]

picked up my s3 watch again w/ lindir and i have to ask: who here genuinely thinks that buffy and angel are the star-crossed lovers tragically ripped apart too soon? like why are we so sad? season three seems like it really wants me to cry over how buffy and angel can no longer be together, but like ... buffy and angel can no longer be together Because Angelus Killed Jenny. and yes there's definitely some degree of tragedy re: angelus's actions and how the scoobies struggle to trust him After All The Murder, but somehow i don't feel like angel is the one who got fucked over here. like, "we can't be together because people associate you and our relationship with the Violent Murder Of My Dad's Girlfriend" doesn't quite pack the same punch as "My Girlfriend Was Literally Murdered." if we're talking about two people with destinies that conflict at the worst possible moment and end in PERMANENT death, leaving one party bereft for the entire rest of canon, there's only one love that Tragic and Star-Crossed in the second season. i feel like i'm going insane.