#final fantasy discourse

[the-moogs]

i think in part 3 they should make a world where these two are confirmed gfs

[todoggukie]

Final Fantasy VII Rebirth (2024) dev. Square Enix

[jumpluffdrifting]

The thing about Final Fantasy VII is that it’s really good despite how many people say how good it is

[somebodys-nightmare]

Understanding the Romantic Narrative Arcs in Final Fantasy VII

There has been no shortage of discourse surrounding the “Love Triangle Debate”, (a fan-constructed term, I must inform you) of FFVII for a very long time. Most recently, with the release of FFVII Rebirth, this discourse has intensified and led to a wide spectrum of fan conclusions that range from grounded in narrative sense to completely baseless or delusional. Some takes are attached to contemporary relationship issues, personal experience, comparisons to other media or works of fiction, social constructs or societal issues, personal preference, or a lack of full context.

While any piece of media or fiction is subject to some level of interpretation (this is the very nature of humans consuming works of art), most works are created with intentional narrative direction. In fact, many works are formulaic, especially in genres such as fantasy, romance, mystery, etc. While of course there are always exceptions and deviations, as a writer and former English literature teacher I can say that most stories follow a general narrative structure or arc that makes them digestible and satisfying to readers/audiences. Such arcs impact the main, external, internal, and subplots of a story, as well as individual character arcs and character relationship arcs.

Final Fantasy is no different. While there are other cultural influences as FFs are Japanese stories, my experience with the series is the writing generally follows most storytelling conventions that can be found in all forms of archetypal writing, cross-culturally and generationally. FFVII is often accused of being ambiguous or open-ended in many aspects of its story. I tend to disagree with this idea and think that its storytelling is subversive rather than ambiguous, meaning that it requires players to work harder and use more critical thinking in order to reach the author’s intended conclusions. It also relies on false or misleading narratives for a good part of the story (such as red herrings, illusions, or unreliable narrators) as storytelling devices that help the truth in the story unfold in later parts of the narrative arc(s). Like any piece of media using these storytelling methods, this means that there will be controversy or debate as audiences contend with the author’s messages or intentions. However, that does not mean that the intentions are not there and that there is not an intentional outcome on the part of the writers.

Personally, I believe that FFVII has a very clear narrative structure for all of its main plot, sub plots, and character arcs, but that its approach is challenging to many players who have to wrestle with the story as it unfolds to understand it. It is not spoon-fed, and some revelations may betray player attachments that were originally formed. However, in my view, this is what makes FFVII such an exceptional story when compared to many others. That being said, the lack (or refusal) of understanding of FFVII’s narrative arcs has led to discourse that unfortunately mischaracterizes many of the characters and pushes inappropriate perspectives onto the storytelling, mostly surrounding the romantic arcs of the main characters and the so-called “LTD” (the fan construction, remember?). I strongly believe that the best way to understand any story is to follow the narrative arcs in order to arrive at the author’s intended conclusions.

I’m going to attempt to do that for the romantic subplots in FFVII in hopes of bringing some clarity to this issue. This analysis is based on a standard Three-Act Romance narrative writing structure (which aligns with the Hero's Journey structure), as well common romantic archetypes and tropes, both for characters and plot, but applied to the specific context of the story, world, and characters of FFVII. Please note that this is my personal analysis and it is by no means perfect, nor am I saying this is the bible of how FFVII has been written. I just hope it gives some insight into why some storytelling interpretations of FFVII should make more sense than… others. This analysis will draw from bits of the entire compilation, but the primary focus of the structure will be looking at FF7R with the OG as a baseline.

This is a long thread, so please see the outline for discussion below.

Romantic Structure/Trope Analysis

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Aerith/Cloud: The Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Romance

Zack/Aerith: The Long Lost Love Romance

Final Thoughts: The "Love Triangle" is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Childhood Connection Revealed)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonists in their everyday lives, showing what emotional or psychological issues are holding them back from love. Readers should get a sense of their internal conflicts and motivations, along with the external situations that will challenge them later.

Childhood Friends Layer: Introduce the deep connection between the two characters, showing them as lifelong friends with an established bond. There could be hints of one or both characters secretly harboring feelings for the other, but they haven't acted on it due to fear of losing the friendship.

Example: Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends with a complicated history. Although they were close when they were little, they drifted apart but secretly longed for one another. They shared a romantic promise and then separated for seven years. At the beginning of FFVII, they are reunited, but both characters are contending with serious internal and external conflicts - Cloud’s identity crisis and the Shinra Company’s greed and abuse of the planet.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The main characters meet or are pushed together by external circumstances. This encounter introduces the romantic conflict—whether it’s instant attraction or tension between them.

Childhood Friends Layer: Since they’ve already known each other for years, the “meet-cute” here is more about seeing each other in a new light. Maybe one of them returns to town after time away, or an external event shifts their dynamic, making one or both start to view the other differently.

Example: Cloud and Tifa reunite in Midgar and Tifa recruits Cloud to work for AVALANCHE. She does this primarily to keep him close so she can keep an eye on him as she is worried about him and his mental state. During this time, we see an instant chemistry between Cloud and Tifa as they reconnect after years apart. When conflicts are introduced, we see the strain that it puts on them, but we also see how there’s a lingering desire for closeness, whether it be in their discussion/memory of the promise, their mutual flirting, their skinship, etc.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The characters resist the idea of a romantic relationship, often due to internal or external obstacles. There’s a clear push-pull dynamic as they fight their growing attraction, often rejecting the possibility of being together.

Childhood Friends Layer: The hesitation here comes from their shared history. Both characters are afraid to risk their close friendship for something as uncertain as a romance. This dynamic creates tension as they begin to realize how much they depend on each other emotionally.

Example: This isn’t directly addressed, but the narrative deflects from intentional romantic confrontations at this point because of Cloud’s identity crisis and the pressing issues of the external conflict. Neither character is outwardly pursuing a relationship, but they don’t exactly deny their desire for closeness. We consistently see the push/pull between Cloud and Tifa throughout the early part of their arc. It's also further complicated when Sephiroth starts to sabotage their relationship.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances push them together, forcing them to interact and face their growing connection. Even if they resist the idea of love, the bond between them deepens as they spend more time together.

Childhood Friends Layer: Their shared history becomes an advantage and a source of conflict. The deeper they dive into new romantic feelings, the more they rely on the comfort of their friendship, but they’re also terrified of crossing the line and ruining everything.

Example: Cloud and Tifa work together both with AVALANCHE and the party at large to combat the threats present in the external conflict. Additionally, they share deep trauma from the Nibelheim Incident that brings them closer together as sources of comfort. They become one another’s rocks, and though they still do not move toward any explicit romantic confirmation, it is clear from their behavior that they both hold deep feelings for each other and care for each other greatly. Cloud in particular holds on to his promise to Tifa, making it a cornerstone of his strength moving forward.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: This is a major turning point where the characters either experience a "false high" (where they feel like things are going well but something still isn’t quite right) or a "false low" (where they feel like things are falling apart). There’s often a pivotal moment of intimacy that deepens their bond but also introduces new fears.

Childhood Friends Layer: The fear of losing the friendship intensifies. They might experience their first kiss or confession of deeper feelings, but the risk of ruining their long-established bond makes the situation more fraught with anxiety.

Example: This particular point in the arc gets a little tricky for Cloud and Tifa because of Cloud’s identity crisis and Tifa’s reticence around their mismatched issues. However, Rebirth has made it clear that before the end of disc 1, Cloud and Tifa are aware of their feelings for each other and that the narrative is still in the way of it. This arc intersects events that transpire from Kalm to Gongaga, and we see the build-up of tension due to the internal conflict between Cloud and Sephiroth.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The characters are drawn back together by external events, but their internal fears and conflicts still loom large. The romance starts to deepen, but both are still fighting their feelings in some way.

Childhood Friends Layer: They try to go back to being "just friends," but it’s clear that things have changed between them. The emotional and romantic tension keeps building, and they can’t ignore how much they need each other.

Example: We see this dynamic between Cloud and Tifa continue to build throughout disc 1, particularly in Rebirth. We are consistently reminded of the tension between them and the importance of their relationship, regardless of romantic intent. Gongaga and Nibelheim are great examples of this.

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The characters are now falling in love, even if they haven’t fully admitted it to each other. There’s often a deeper moment of intimacy—physical or emotional—that makes them realize just how much they mean to each other.

Childhood Friends Layer: One or both characters realize they’ve fallen hard for their best friend, but they are still careful or hold back from telling the other, afraid it might ruin everything. Nonetheless, they give in to their feelings in some capacity, which marks a turning point.

Example: The Gold Saucer date would be the best parallel for this point in the arc for Cloud and Tifa. In the OG Tifa almost confesses to a very interested Cloud, in Rebirth, they confirm feelings and kiss. Either way, it’s clearly meant to signal at this point, the fall has happened.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point where everything falls apart. The characters break up or distance themselves, either because of internal or external forces.

Childhood Friends Layer: The weight of their shared history makes this moment even more devastating. The fear of losing the friendship forever becomes real.

Example: For Cloud and Tifa, this moment is really hinged on Cloud’s mental breakdown. After the Gold Saucer Date, Cloud’s mental state progressively worsens due to events that occur within both the internal and external conflicts, and his bond with Tifa is severed completely at the Northern Crater. Cloud and Tifa are separated when Cloud falls into the Lifestream.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: One or both characters must confront their fears and make a choice. This moment often involves a grand gesture or a realization that love is worth the risk.

Childhood Friends Layer: The realization comes that their friendship has always been the foundation of something more. They understand that risking the friendship for love is not only worth it but that the friendship can only deepen through their romantic connection.

Example: This point comes in Mideel and the Lifestream Scene. Tifa reaches her own realization about her relationship with Cloud and how her reticence has impacted things, and her conviction to save him and be with him is both profound and clearly romantic. Inside the Lifestream, Tifa helps Cloud to find himself, and many revelations about his true feelings for her are brought to light. Of course, we have not reached this point of the story in FF7R, so it will be intriguing to see how it unfolds, given all of the additional context the remake series and ToTP have provided.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The characters finally confess their love for each other, making the leap from friends to lovers. This is the emotional high point where the relationship is solidified.

Childhood Friends Layer: The confession of love is tied to their long history, as they realize that their deep emotional connection as friends is the foundation for a strong romantic relationship.

Example: This moment for Cloud and Tifa is the Highwind Scene in the OG, where they confirm, without words, that their feelings match. Once again, we will see how this event unfolds in Part 3 with all the new and deepened context of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in 7R.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The characters are together and happy, giving the reader a sense of closure.

Childhood Friends Layer: The resolution emphasizes how their strong friendship has transitioned seamlessly into a romantic relationship, giving the sense that they’ll continue to support each other as both friends and lovers.

Example: In the OG, this is seen in the FMV of the game where Cloud and Tifa are together, leading to the resolution of the entire story as Holy and the Lifestream are released. While this scene isn’t particularly direct, it’s enough to show that Cloud and Tifa are together, which leads to ACC where they live and raise a family together. This entire ending segment will likely be greatly expanded in FF7R, and so it'll be interesting to see how these moments are handled, given all of the new context.

Aerith/Cloud: Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Arc

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Unrequited Feelings Introduced)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Introduce the protagonist, who falls for the other character. Set up their emotional and psychological conflict, showing how these unrequited feelings shape their interactions with the other character.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character’s love is clearly unreturned, but they hold on to hope. There is a mix of admiration, longing, and pain as they watch the love interest live their life without ever seeing them as a romantic partner.

Example: Aerith’s feelings for Cloud, who she meets first on the streets of Midgar and later inside her church, are inspired by her long-lost love, Zack, whom he reminds her of. We don’t know this immediately, but we find out soon enough, and the story, especially 7R, is full of visual and symbolic cues.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The characters are pushed together by external circumstances, giving the protagonist more time with the love interest. The character sees this as an opportunity to grow closer, but the other character remains unaware or indifferent to their romantic feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character is thrilled to spend more time with the other character and hopes this will bring them closer. However, the love interest still sees the relationship as platonic, creating tension.

Example: While their interaction on Loveless Street is the fated moment for Cloud and Aerith, the meet-cute is their meeting in the church. This is the inciting incident that not only truly triggers Aerith’s latent Zack-longing, but also begins Cloud and Aerith’s friendship as they work together for a common cause. Aerith flirts with Cloud quite a bit at this point, displaying her interest, but Cloud does not reciprocate in any romantic sense. She also refuses to let him leave and follows him around, essentially solidifying Aerith’s place in the player party and cementing her role as the heroine driving the external conflict. From here on out, we are consistently reminded that Cloud reminds Aerith of Zack, the deeper reason for her interest in him.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The protagonist’s feelings remain unrequited. The other character might express interest in someone else or explicitly state that they don’t see the protagonist in a romantic light. This deepens the emotional conflict for the protagonist, who struggles with unspoken feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist is heartbroken but holds onto hope. They keep pushing their emotions down, unwilling to let go just yet.

Example: Aerith meets Tifa and quickly realizes that she is someone deeply important to Cloud. In Remake, she realizes this even before meeting her when Cloud has a headache and calls out Tifa’s name. Her awareness changes her behavior somewhat, but internally, she still is still conflicted because of her internal conflict over Zack.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances continue to push the characters together, and the protagonist’s feelings deepen. They begin to cling to small moments, hoping that their love might one day be reciprocated.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist interprets friendly gestures as signs of romantic potential. They invest emotionally in every small interaction, hoping it means more than it does. However, deep down, they start to feel the weight of their unreturned affection.

Example: The journey continues with the party leaving Midgar, and Aerith’s feelings for Cloud grow despite her knowledge of his bond with Tifa as the party travels together. In Rebirth this is further complicated by Aerith’s loss of foresight/memories to the Whispers. We are also constantly reminded of Aerith’s lingering feelings for Zack and her grief and sadness over his loss/disappearance. Throughout the journey, she seeks out opportunities to spend time with Cloud - “dates” even though these moments are not reciprocated romantically. A notable example of this is her date with him on the clock tower in Kalm, where she speaks to him about his relationship with Tifa (hinting at her knowledge of their bond and her jealousy over it) and then her public declaration that they were on a date (in front of Tifa). Cloud's reaction to moments like these continue to inform the audience he does not return romantic affections for Aerith.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: A major turning point occurs where the protagonist either faces the possibility that their love will never be returned or sees a fleeting moment where they think it might be. The emotional stakes are higher, as the protagonist grapples with whether to continue holding on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character might attempt to make their feelings known, either explicitly or through subtle gestures, but the love interest doesn’t reciprocate. The character is left feeling exposed and vulnerable, yet still holding on to hope that things might change.

Example: For Cloud and Aerith, this continues to be the nature of their relational development throughout most of disc 1, but their interaction on the water tower in Nibelheim is probably the best example of this. Aerith has to grapple with her jealousy over Cloud and Tifa’s bond, which she has been observing for the entire game. Her acknowledgment of her feelings over it is a major turning point as a character. Additionally, this moment really cements that Cloud views his relationship with Aerith as a cherished friendship, as we see the way that he cares about her angry reaction.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: Circumstances force the characters to spend more time together, even though the character is starting to feel the emotional strain of unrequited love. There may be a moment of temporary hope, but it’s tinged with the growing realization that their feelings might never be returned.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character becomes more emotionally drained as they begin to sense that their love will remain one-sided. They might try one last time to be closer to the love interest, but the gap between them is becoming clearer.

Example: This moment could best be viewed through Cloud and Aerith’s Gold Saucer date. There, Aerith not only tries to get closer to Cloud but she opens up emotionally and gives Cloud insight into the root of her feelings, which is Zack. Cloud does not reciprocate any of Aerith’s romantic overtures in this date and rather displays discomfort or awkwardness throughout most of it. However, he does allow her a moment of emotional vulnerability, which he has not been willing to do previously. This is further contextualized by how, In Rebirth, Cloud has remembered Zack by this point (albeit incorrectly). Cloud, who cherishes and cares for Aerith greatly as a friend, is considerate of this connection and offers her comfort for the grief and loss she has just admitted to feeling and seeking consolation in him from. Hence "just until the ride's over"; "I didn't do anything" etc...

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The character finally realizes that their love will never be returned. This is an emotionally intense moment where they are forced to confront the truth—they will never be more than a friend or confidant to the love interest.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may be devastated by the final confirmation that their feelings will never be returned. The emotional weight of unrequited love becomes too much, and they start to realize they need to let go, or come to other realizations about their feelings.

Example: The moment that most closely matches with this point in the arc is the dream stroll through Sector 5. Not only does Aerith accept that Cloud doesn’t return her feelings romantically, but she comes to a realization of her own feelings and questions them. This is clearly a reference to Zack, whose internal conflict has been consistently foreshadowed. Aerith also seems to recognize that she can’t help Cloud with his internal conflict - that is Tifa's role.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point of emotional reckoning, where they face the reality of unrequited love and move on in their arc.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character experiences grief over their unreturned feelings. They might decide to pull away from the love interest entirely, or they may try to come to terms with remaining friends while letting go of their romantic hopes and moving on.

Example: For Aerith, this moment is marked by her complete transition to her role in the external conflict. At this point, she has let go of her romantic fancy for Cloud and has committed herself to the bigger picture. It is at this point that she leaves the party, and leaves Cloud in the Sleeping Forest, to fulfill her role as a Cetra.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist sacrifices their unrequited love, realizing they need to move on for the sake of their own emotional well-being or greater purposes. This is a bittersweet moment of acceptance and self-growth, where they let go of the hope that kept them holding on for so long.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may realize that holding on to unrequited love is only hurting them or preventing them from reaching a greater purpose.

Example: For Aerith, this point in the arc is less about Cloud and more about her role in the external conflict. This is the point in which she travels to the Forgotten City, prays, and ultimately is killed. However, it is bittersweet and tragic for her, ultimately, because she dies with unrequited love from Cloud and without ever getting closure on her true love, Zack.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: Instead of a declaration of mutual love, this is the protagonist’s internal declaration of acceptance. They start the process of moving on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist lets go of the love interest in their heart, realizing that they need to focus on their own future. The love interest is likely unaware of this internal shift, but it’s a powerful moment of growth for the protagonist.

Example: For Aerith, this is perhaps best viewed in her complete transition after death to the larger role she plays as the heroine of the planet from within the Lifestream. Her arc has fully transitioned away from her feelings for Cloud into her greater purpose. In FF7R, we can hope to see how Zack, who has been trying to find her, begins to impact this next phase of her arc.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: Instead of a traditional happy ending, this is a reflective, bittersweet resolution. The character has grown emotionally. There is a sense of closure, though it may come with lingering heartache.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character has let go of the hope that their love would ever be returned. They are stronger for it and have moved on.

Example: For Aerith and Cloud, this moment is best summed up by their brief Lifestream reunion at the end of the game. It will be intriguing to see how this moment is expanded and provides closure for Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, as well as Zack’s role in both.

Zack/Aerith: Long Lost Love/Tragic Love Arc

This arc is a little more complicated to map out since it is not only incomplete but riddled with mysteries at this point. However, I’m going to do my best to make the connections based on the information we have and where we can theorize things may be going.

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonist’s life after the estrangement, showing how unresolved feelings for their lost lover impact their emotional world. There’s a sense of longing and unfinished business that propels the protagonist’s actions.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist is haunted by memories of their estranged lover and driven by a deep desire to find them again. This longing is fueled by unresolved emotional wounds, and the protagonist clings to the hope of a reunion.

Example: In Rebirth, from the beginning, Zack is singularly focused on reuniting with Aerith. After his escape from Nibelheim, even as he carries the wounded Cloud, Zack’s thoughts are consumed by Aerith. His love for her pushes him forward despite the dangerous and confusing circumstances he finds himself in. Zack’s motivation intensifies when he discovers, through a newscast, that Aerith is in danger. This revelation shifts Zack from hopeful longing to immediate action, driving home the urgency of his quest. His decision to prioritize Aerith’s safety over everything else, including Cloud, underscores how central Aerith is to his purpose, raising the stakes for his emotional journey.

The Inciting Incident

Romance Structure: The Call to Adventure

Purpose: The inciting incident transitions the protagonist from passive longing to active pursuit of reunion. Some event or revelation forces the protagonist to act, prompting them to seek out their estranged lover. Often, this is triggered by the discovery that the lover may be in danger.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist realizes that simply hoping for a reunion isn’t enough—there’s now a tangible reason for urgency. This event serves as a catalyst for the protagonist to fully commit to the journey of reconnecting with their lover, increasing the stakes as they shift from passive longing to active pursuit.

Example: After mysteriously "surviving" his last stand against Shinra (as seen at the end of Crisis Core), Zack rescues Aerith from Shinra’s grasp in Rebirth. However, instead of a triumphant reunion, the moment is clouded with confusion and tragedy. This rescue scene signals Zack’s deep emotions for Aerith and heightens the sense of foreboding in their relationship arc. The player quickly realizes that the reunion isn’t straightforward and that darker forces are at play, casting a shadow over Zack’s determined rescue.

First Plot Point

Romance Structure: Refusal of the Call / First Obstacle

Purpose: The first major obstacle or refusal of the call introduces the initial challenges the protagonist faces in their pursuit of the lost lover. Despite their determination, external forces or internal doubts surface, complicating the journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist’s optimism about reuniting with their estranged lover is challenged by harsh realities—whether through physical danger, supernatural elements, or emotional barriers. This moment introduces doubts about whether a reunion is possible, raising tension and uncertainty.

Example: Zack eventually brings a comatose Aerith and Cloud to Elmyra’s house. Zack’s devotion to them is evident as he cares for them despite their unresponsive states, but the world around him behaves in strange ways. The eerie sense of something deeply wrong in Sector 5 hints that Zack’s reality—and Aerith’s fate—are far from certain. He’s not just fighting to reunite with Aerith; he’s battling a reality that is becoming increasingly unstable. The player shares in Zack’s growing sense of anxiety and confusion, setting the tone for the more tragic layers of their arc to come.

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: The protagonist resolves to pursue their lost lover, hoping to rekindle what they once had. However, unresolved issues and emotional scars from the past begin to surface, complicating their journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and distance have changed both characters, making reconnection difficult. The focus is on how time has altered both individuals and the lingering emotional weight of their separation.

Example: Zack’s attempt to reunite with Aerith is complicated by the metaphysical separation created by the Lifestream. Aerith remains comatose, as does Cloud, and Zack has to contend with both his own internal conflict as he tries to help them as well as the external conflict of his strange and mysterious circumstances within "Sector 5".

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: The protagonist’s need for their lost lover intensifies, but the relationship is far more complicated than expected. Old wounds and emotional or external barriers resurface, making reunion seem out of reach. Despite their determination, the protagonist begins to doubt whether they can ever restore what they once had.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and emotional distance have changed the dynamics of their relationship. While both may care for each other, the past cannot easily be erased, and their attempts to reconnect are fraught with tension.

Example: External forces such as Sephiroth’s manipulations, and Aerith’s internal conflict over Cloud create an emotional barrier between her and Zack. Aerith, “asleep” in Zack’s world, remains unaware of his presence. As Zack learns from Marlene that Aerith’ "likes" Cloud, more tension and conflict is added. Despite these challenges, Zack remains unwavering in his commitment to reconnect with Aerith, determined to overcome the growing emotional distance.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The protagonist makes another push to reconnect with their lost lover despite significant setbacks. Faced with the reality that time is running out, the protagonist must act decisively to restore the relationship. While emotional connections may deepen, unresolved challenges threaten the outcome, leaving uncertainty in the air.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Despite growing obstacles, the protagonist remains committed to rekindling the relationship. The emotional and physical distance between the lovers may still seem insurmountable, but the protagonist refuses to give up, holding onto the hope that they can salvage what they once had.

Example: Even as Zack’s hope begins to wane, he remains steadfast in his desire to reunite with Aerith. Zack finds himself pulled in multiple directions, creating additional conflicts. External forces and emotional entanglements continue to complicate their relationship, but Zack’s determination to bridge the emotional gap keeps pushing him forward. This section of Rebirth continues to heavily foreshadow both the truth about Zack as well as the future of Zack and Aerith's relationship, despite the conflicts.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: The Break-Up / Darkest Hour

Purpose: The protagonist faces their darkest moment, where it seems that the reunion will never happen. Emotional scars or external forces tear the lovers apart, and the protagonist believes they’ve lost their final chance to reconnect. The relationship nears failure as the protagonist faces the harsh reality of their situation.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The conflict grows to the point of no return. Previous mistakes or external conflicts surface, causing the relationship to fall apart, and the protagonist is left devastated, feeling that the reunion may never come.

Example: In Rebirth, this moment comes near the ending of the game when Sephiroth's confluence of worlds plays a role in role in further uprooting Zack's existence in the Lifestream. We also know that this is the time that Aerith dies in the real world, further complicating matters and adding new layers of conflict.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist realizes that to win back their lost lover, they must sacrifice their pride, fear, or ego. This emotional climax reflects their willingness to make a grand gesture or display vulnerability, showing they’ll do whatever it takes for a second chance.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist makes a final, heartfelt plea to the estranged lover, acknowledging their mistakes and baring their soul. The lover, moved by the sincerity, must decide whether or not to take the risk of rekindling the relationship.

Example: Although we don’t yet know how this will play out in the Remake series, it’s likely that Part 3 will feature a reunion between Zack and Aerith. The conflicts that have built up—including Aerith’s internal struggle regarding Cloud—will need resolution. Advent Children (ACC) shows Zack and Aerith together in the Lifestream, setting the stage for a reunion in the Remake. The exact nature of this reunion remains speculative, but it’s likely Zack will make a significant sacrifice or grand gesture to resolve the emotional conflicts that have kept them apart.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The estranged lover finally decides to take the risk and give the relationship another chance. After much internal struggle, they admit they’ve never stopped loving the protagonist, and they’re ready to move forward together. This is the emotional peak where both characters commit to each other.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The reconciliation finally happens. After everything they’ve endured, the estranged lover acknowledges their lingering feelings and agrees to rebuild the relationship. Both characters take a leap of faith, trusting that they can overcome the past and move forward.

Example: Though speculative, if the arc follows the long lost lovers trope, Zack and Aerith will likely experience a heartfelt reunion in Part 3. Their lingering feelings would finally be acknowledged, clearing up Aerith’s complicated feelings for Cloud while reaffirming her bond with Zack. This declaration of love would also tie into the larger narrative arc, offering emotional resolution for both characters and allowing their story to move forward, especially in support of Aerith's role in the external conflict of the Planet.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The story concludes with a glimpse of the couple in their newly rekindled relationship. The emotional weight of their past has been lifted, and they are now ready to face the future together. Even if circumstances prevent a traditional “happy ending,” there is emotional closure and a sense of peace.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: After the pain, separation, and emotional struggle, the couple is finally together. The audience is left with a sense that their love will endure this time, offering a bittersweet but satisfying conclusion to their long journey.

Example: In Advent Children (ACC), we see Zack and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream, helping Cloud in his final battle. Their reunion suggests that, while they may no longer live in the physical world, their connection endures beyond death. Though bittersweet, their reunion offers emotional closure. The final installment of the Remake series will likely bring full resolution to Zack and Aerith’s arc, providing a satisfying conclusion, even if there are tragic elements along the way.

Final Thoughts: The Love Triangle is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud and Tifa’s Slow-Burn Childhood Friends to Lovers (Canon)

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in Final Fantasy VII is a carefully crafted slow burn, rooted in a deep bond that extends back to their childhood in Nibelheim. Their connection is not built on superficial or flimsy romantic interactions but on a shared past and the quiet intimacy that grows from years of unspoken longing but is complicated by trauma.

Cloud and Tifa’s natural chemistry is driven by their subconscious desires and the deep, unspoken feelings they have for one another. For Cloud, his buried emotions instinctively reach out to Tifa, even though he isn’t fully aware of them. The narrative hides these true feelings, but subtle moments of affection and protectiveness reveal that, deep down, Cloud’s heart is already tied to hers, laying the groundwork for their eventual emotional connection.

The game’s emotional climax in the Lifestream, where Tifa helps Cloud piece together his shattered memories, is a pivotal moment in which both characters finally confront the depth of their feelings for each other. Their journey isn’t one of dramatic declarations, but rather a gradual, emotional reconnection that allows deeply held, mutual love and longing to blossom—a love that is grounded in shared history, healing, and mutual understanding and compassion.

This slow-burn romance stands as the true heart of Cloud’s emotional journey, dispelling the illusion of a love triangle and making it clear that Cloud’s deepest emotional ties are with Tifa.

Aerith and Cloud’s Unrequited Love / Not Meant to Be Semi-Canon/One-sided) (Fanon - mutual)

The dynamic between Aerith and Cloud, while often misinterpreted as romantic, is better understood through the lens of unrequited love and fate’s intervention. Aerith’s initial attraction to Cloud is undeniably influenced by his resemblance to her first love, Zack Fair.

As time goes on, Aerith tries to see Cloud for who he is, but tragically, this is not possible before her death, and her feelings remain complicated and unreciprocated. Their bond, while significant as friendship, never goes beyond that, reinforcing the fact that Aerith’s feelings for Cloud are more of an echo of her past with Zack.

Cloud's true self being in love with Tifa and Aerith’s tragic death seal the fate of their relationship as one that was never meant to be—a fleeting connection, shaped by circumstance rather than true compatibility.

The tragedy of this unfulfilled arc serves as a powerful narrative device, but it is clear that Cloud and Aerith were never destined to end up together, further dispelling the notion of a love triangle.

Zack and Aerith’s Long Lost Love / Tragic Love (Canon)

Zack and Aerith’s relationship is the quintessential tragic love story in Final Fantasy VII, defined by separation, longing, and loss. Aerith’s first love, Zack, vanishes from her life without explanation, leaving her with unanswered questions and unresolved feelings. Even as she begins to move forward, her heart never fully lets go of Zack, who is revealed to have fought valiantly to return to her—only to tragically lose his life in the process.

The tragedy of their love lies in the fact that both characters hold onto each other, but fate conspires to keep them apart, making their love story one of the most emotionally poignant elements in the game. Even in death, their connection endures, with Zack and Aerith appearing together in the Lifestream in ACC, symbolizing a love that transcends life itself. This arc, while bittersweet, resolves the narrative of Aerith’s romantic life—Zack was her true love, and Cloud was a reflection of the man she had lost, not a new love interest.

Their tragic love story dispels the myth of a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII, emphasizing that Aerith’s heart always belonged to Zack, even as she developed a bond with Cloud during her journey.

All of the relationships in the game are important. However, Cloud/Tifa & Zack/Aerith are the canon, mutual romantic relationships of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud/Aerith have a cherished friendship, but any romantic subtext of their relationship in the game is used as a vehicle to drive the conflicts and truths of the canon relationships forward. This is accomplished through illusions and subversions in storytelling, as well as creating internal conflict for the characters and canon relationships.

FFVII’s storytelling is deliberately designed to mislead the player through incomplete truths and emotional misdirection, including the use of red herrings, illusions, unreliable narration, and the omission of critical information or context. Cloud’s confused memories and persona, coupled with Aerith’s initial attraction to him based on his similarities to Zack, create the illusion of a romantic triangle, but the deeper truths—Cloud’s unresolved trauma and false identity, Tifa’s role as the keeper of Cloud’s real past and his true feelings, and Aerith’s ultimate fate as the Planet’s protector and her true love being Zack—gradually dismantle this illusionary love triangle.

I cannot stress enough that FFVII is not a love drama or soap opera where the game’s conflict centers on romantic rivalries, betrayal, deception, or morally questionable behaviors.. It’s a complex story that focuses on themes of life, loss, identity, self-discovery, legacy, and on and on.

Love - all kinds of love, including romantic, platonic, and familial - is a theme of FFVII, but truly and holistically, not for the sake of creating meaningless drama between the characters. The relationship dynamics appear messy at times in the earlier parts of the story, but these dynamics are designed to help us reach the proper conclusions about the story and the characters’ arcs, and how true love is a vehicle for reaching resolution for both.

Player’s choice is irrelevant to the plot. You cannot decide or alter the story structure or direction or individual character arcs or relationships. The most you can do is view the game through a slightly different lens by gaining an expanded understanding of character arcs and motivation with new replays.

Shipping is a fandom construct. It’s meant to be fun, and you can ship whatever you like. But shipping doesn’t intersect with the facts of a story or its narrative. Lying about any piece of media to convince yourself or others of its canonicity is bizarre behavior.

Respect the work and its intention, while having your shipping fun within your fandom. Don't embarrass yourself by saying an FF protagonist kissing the girl he’s loved since childhood and joined the army to impress means nothing, or worse, proves he the opposite of a hero.

You can ship your fanon without doing all that.

Last thing: Reunion is a primary theme of Final Fantasy VII. You may have noticed that it is also a primary theme for both of the canon romantic relationships. Personally, I believe that Part Three is going to drive this message home in a way that is unmistakable. I also believe that both lovers' reunions will be instrumental in resolving all of the conflicts of FFVII in the final game.

It’s not a coincidence that both reunions will take place in the Lifestream, or that they've been foreshadowed by the presence of the yellow flower.

I also believe that the dual Rebirth cover arts, described by Tetsuya Nomura as Sephiroth "tearing Cloud and Zack's worlds apart" are heavily foreshadowing the resolution of these relationships along with their connection to the the larger story structures of FFVII/FFVIIR.

Let's wait and see when Part 3 comes along.

[morgana96]

Not trying to start drama, but the insinuation that Estimeric is only popular because it's "yaoi"/"two random hot guys" is, to me, flawed for a couple of reasons.

1). It's very presumptuous to label the entire Estimeric fan base as populated solely by people fetishizing gay men. There are Estimeric fans who do fit that label, because unfortunately pretty much any gay ship has some fans who fit that label. But there are also many queer Estimeric fans who put a lot of love & pride into their fan creations, & it's unfortunate to see them get blanket labeled as "fetishists".

2). Implying that Aymeric & Estinien are just "two random hot guys" that people picked to ship out of the blue one day is...kind of silly?

Like...they're canonically friends?

Aymeric is one of very few people to successfully navigate Estinien's defensive walls & actually manage to befriend him.

They've built a decade's worth of mutual trust & admiration - so much so that Aymeric considers Estinien his dearest friend, while Estinien would gladly lead the charge in committing treason to protect Aymeric's life.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but the thing that draws me to Estimeric is that I genuinely just love their relationship. I love their open faith & respect for one another. I love how they'll be roasting each other one minute & singing each other's praises in the next. And of course, I love the potential of them in a steady slow burn friends to lovers scenario.

I just think they're neat, you know?

3). Even if Estimeric was just two random hot guys people picked to ship out of the blue, I fail to see how that would automatically make it fetishistic.

Like it's one thing if someone's being clearly predatory, bigoted, and/or bullying other people in fandom. If that's the case, they absolutely deserve to be criticized for their awful behavior.

But shipping fictional adult strangers isn't automatically any of those things. In fact, it can be very interesting and compelling to explore the potential dynamics between characters who've never interacted in canon.

[genderlesseltrichentity]

might be a bit controversial but in the ff7 fandom everyone who hates on the toxic ships is actually pretty rude and they act like the toxicness is all their is to it and ignores the canon moments between them that are queer coded and they dont actually explain why they hate the ships besides “oh its literally abused x abuser and toxic” which yes but thats not the entire ship like usually (but not always) clerith shippers especially.im not a huge clerith fan but i respect it but one thing about them is that they dont know how to do respect other peoples ships they will literally say go on rants about how theyd like to torture shippers like chill its not that serious they are both fictional characters that are adults that aren’t related and the actual people who ship them are so nice

[neokamui414]

I really really really really want to write like a 50,000 word essay talking about the success and popularity of horror movies within the last 2 years that reflect on and explore the late 20th century phenomena of the Satanic Panic; so stuff like Late Night With The Devil, Maxxxine, Longlegs etc. and compare and contrast them with the fact that we are seeing a simultaneous reemergence of Japanese media that does the same with what could arguably be seen as the closest cultural equivalent to the Satanic Panic in East Asia, known as the Japanese Occult Boom. So stuff like the Silent Hill 2 Remake and anime like Dandadan.

And then juxtapose all of that against the current sociopolitical and economic circumstances around the world, since it is a very well documented fact that interest in the supernatural, paranormal, mystical and occult, all grow exponentially during times of sociopolitical uncertainty and upheaval.......

The problem is that my autism and ADHD would make it very very difficult for me to actually write it down in essay format so someone should bother me on this app and get me to talk about my thoughts and feelings on this topic. Please please please let me rant about my current biggest sociological/anthropological special interest!!!!

[wallpacapaca]

Zenos yae "I will follow my friend to the end of the universe to kill them myself" Galvus and Dion "I've got one more left in me" Lesage are the same person

Bonus:

[withgreatpowercomesmyfuckingdick]

i’ve noticed something as i write Cherry Wine, and it vaguely amuses me but also makes me grind my teeth a bit. for those unaware, Cherry Wine handles delicate topics: domestic violence and abuse in intimate relationships. i won’t be discussing it in detail here, but that is what CW is about

What I noticed is that Cherry Wine has a damn near suspicious amount of guest kudos. almost 40% of my kudos on that fic are guests, compared to the approx 20% on my others fics (WGP notwithstanding, just because of the large influx)

and i know it isn’t just guests finding my fic, because that literally doesn’t happen. which leaves me with the very real possibility that people are logging out of their accounts to give ‘anonymous’ kudos. which. heavy sigh. seriously?

now all kudos are good kudos. i will never be mad at kudos. to any possible guest readers of Cherry Wine that are seeing this, thank you so much for the kudos! I really do appreciate it.

I think what’s bothering me is that…there are readers out there that see the need to do that. And I don’t consider that their fault, i consider that the fault of what fandom has become. Fandom has become such a place that, apparently, some feel the need to be anonymous for something as base as leaving kudos. The puritan wave of fandom members has been so damaging that I think people are worried that their name at the bottom of my fic might get THEM attacked. Which is such an awful worry to have, but also so ludicrous because there probably ARE people out there that look at fics like mine, scan the kudos list, and get aggressive not just with me, but others who might enjoy my work. That’s a whole new REALM of jobless

and i guess the point im getting at is: it’s so sad that people will surface level judge something because it isn’t to their taste, and then subsequently shame people who find that it is to their taste. it isn’t fair to anyone involved. people’s inability to move on and mind their business has directly affected the people just trying to have fun and explore different things. the people reading my fic might already be struggling with something internally, (like the fact they enjoy my fic at all), and on top of that, they feel pressured enough to cover their tracks. and they don’t even interact with me. they’re not responsible for me or my actions, and they certainly don’t know me well enough to cosign anything i do. yet they feel responsible for putting a layer between me and them so they aren’t associated.

that’s just sad, really. fandom deserves better than that

[berrywinkle]

You know, I think in-universe there would be shipping wars in the SOLDIER fanclubs where geneseph fans would have flame wars with sephgeal and gengeal fans. I can just imagine the fan club drama when both Genesis and Angeal go missing/declared dead and suddenly Zack shows up all the time around Sephiroth. Poor Zack would be the subject of so many locked forum debates for «stealing» Sephiroth or «usurping» Genesis/Angeal

[celesteasteriaxiv]

Don't trust blindly: A cautionary tale for creatives in the FFXIV venue scene.

So, I am a graphic designer by trade and do design for several player-run roleplaying venues. I design anything from logos to infographics to posters.

Early this year, I was asked through a trusted friend (whose venue I did all the design work for) to design some infographics and staff cards for one of the biggest EU venues.

Being fairly starstruck and perhaps a bit naive, I agreed to do the work without agreeing to a payment first. They were a huge, well-known venue and friends of a friend after all, right? What could go wrong?

Now, months after having designed their staff cards, promotional material, an infographic for a roulette minigame and the staff banners for a discord bot, I have yet to see any pay -or even mention of pay- for my work.

I figured, at this point, it's fair of me to ask, right? I politely ask if they have any intention of continuing the staff card project and if they have thought of payment for my projects.

They take a while to discuss, and eventually come back with an answer: they will not be continuing the project, but will pay me a whopping THREE million gil for my work so far. For perspective: I get paid up to 5 million gil for a single poster regularly. This was several designs spanning hours and hours of work.

At this point I realize they never actually had any intention of paying me for my work. Since all of this is, fortunately, about an in-game currency rather than real life money, I did not feel like dragging this out and decided to compromise: 5 million gil, and I'd be out of their hair.

They agreed, but I have yet to hear anything about the actual payment happening. It has been over a month since this conversation took place.

The kicker? One of their owners has been doing their own promotional posters and has copied my designs to the font on at least two occasions (that I know of). They have a habit of... Uhh... Let's call it 'borrowing' others' ideas. Both in their venue and in their online presence. I won't go into too much detail about this, since I have no interest in outing them. But rest assured this a pattern of behavior, rather than an isolated incident.

This is a warning, from me to you, whoever you are: don't assume that people will not use you and your talents, simply because they are big names in your community or because they are friends-of-friends. Agree to payment amounts clearly and in writing, in advance.

Tldr; big EU venue scene people had no intention of ever paying me for graphic design I did for them, when asked months later agreed to a fraction of my normal wage and copied my graphic design. They have not yet paid me as of writing this post.

[poundingwaves]

Ok I know The Bad Kids are teenagers and I know the players are improvising and under a ridiculously tight schedule but idk the themes just weren't coming together for me. I think if we had like 1 more hour of narrative and 1 less hour of combat between ep 18-20, a lot could've been reckoned with before/during the final battle.

I know The Bad Kids did what needed to be done with the time and knowledge that they had but, knowing that The Rat Grinders (minus klck lol) were violently possessed by rage, I just wish there were other options. Maybe Fig's psychic meddling with Ruben could've triggered his sense of justice for Lucy. Maybe the shards of Cassandra could've been used to call to the old Ankarna. Maybe Fig's belief in the original Ankarna could've caused lapses in the rage crystals the way that Bakur flickered back and forth between his pit fiend and high elf forms. Like Justice can take so many forms and I just wish there was more of a throughline of rehabilitation over penalization.

And I feel like the stark contrast of Ankarna talking to The Bad Kids individually after the battle really underlines the issue. Yes, the hammer of justice falling on those who do harm is sometimes necessary, but it cannot be the only option. And the fact that Ankarna felt useless as the goddess of justice if she couldn't kill for her followers made me so fucking sad.

I loved the therapuetic scenes of The Bad Kids addressing their families and facing the ways they've been wronged and have maybe even caused harm. I just wish the Rat Grinders who were groomed, murdered, possessed, and murdered again had had the same chance instead of just being unceremoniously revivified as a narrative afterthought.

[verflares]

nothing more frustrating than playing New Video Game and/or digesting new media in general and you're like "mmmm this is kinda bad/boring. honestly." so out of curiosity you look up to see if anybody else feels this way but you are instead greeted with if you think anything about this is bad or boring you need to be put in front of a firing squad

[mashias]

this is something i wonder about all the time so sorry for the extremely specific question:

i do not mind whatever pronouns or gendered terms you decide to use for this discussion! very curious to know what people think

(do not fight or be weird on this post or i WILL turn off RBs)

[somebodys-nightmare]

About FFVII Rebirth's Affinity System

A quick post explaining the affinity system in FFVII Rebirth and how it relates to the narrative, the affinity system of OG, shipping and character relationships, and the fixed plot of FFVII.

The affinity system in FFVII Rebirth creates a clever juxtaposition between illusion of choice & Cloud's feelings & desires. Each conversation & choice is created in context of Cloud's individual relationship w/ each character, & the end results (GS Dates) reflect that.

Just like in the OG, this system not only promotes a fun mechanic for players to explore the relationships and dynamics with each character and spend more time with their preferred ones, but it also serves as a meta reminder that Cloud is not himself at this point in the game.

Cloud is currently living a false persona, but players can only control his actions to a degree. He will always only let his relationship w/ any character go as far as he wants. His identity crisis limits his autonomy, but within a certain threshold (there's a reason for this)!

This is why on the date, dynamics are very clear: Cloud takes advice from some characters, treats others like buddies, comforts some, treats one like a kid, and...

... yes, only confirms feelings with & KISSES ONE GIRL.

Optional mechanics in a video game like FFVII where there is only one canon outcome & ending afford players both replayability & expansive insight into character relationships & dynamics. In this case, it is also a cunning meta-function of the internal conflict.

This conflict will be resolved in the Lifestream scene of the next part. Ultimately, the affinity system demonstrates Cloud's canonical relationships w/ every character, & anyone with eyes can see his mutual romantic interests lie with Tifa only... his true desire.

[sheareling]

lol like. yes kristen and cassandra are both fictional characters. their actions and treatment are not real its FICTION its not real. no you cannot hold fictional characters accountable that means nothing because they arent real. if what you meant is that you wish brennan or the PCs would have been harder on kristen then idk what to tell you. its a comedy show and a coming of age story. a story about growing into a better person cant happen if all the characters started as perfect angels. its also very weird to see people acting like kids should be put in jail or something for uhhhh... not being good at communicating? again. i dont know what to say. very un-nuanced, unempathetic, un-understanding way of viewing interpersonal relationships that i frankly dont want to touch with a 10-foot pole. BUT ALSO, beyond ALL of that, cassandra is a god and not a person. iirc from season 1, in the lore, gods are supposed to be physical manifestations of their followers' faith and religious belief. of course the ex-catholic dyke has an unhealthy relationship with every god she has ever had, her relationship with faith as a whole is deeply damaged. its a metaphor and a narrative tool. and its deeply disappointing to see that people are just writing off ally and their decisions as "problematic" instead of meaningfully engaging with the story as it exists, and what it is that the players are trying to say. much of the time, the players WANT you to dislike choiced their characters make! theyre not idiots! thats the whole point! so you can have a bigger and better payoff when they finally make better choices! that is /literally/ the whole point of a story. and yet some of you still could not miss the point more completely.