#illusorybeing

[mc-critical]

How do you think the plot and the dynamics would have changed if instead of Mahidevran having a miscarriage, she had Raziye? How would you imagine Mahi's relationship with her daughter and Raziye and Mihrimah's relationship, since Mihi would grow up with an elder sister. And Raziye's relationship with her aunts and Hürrem? Would Süleyman favour Mihi over Raziye? I can think of many ideas, even Raziye being married to Taşlıcalı, but that would be too similar to Atike and Gevherhan.

First off, Mahidevran wouldn't beat Hürrem. The beating was provoked by the miscarriage to begin with, so with the baby being born instead, we're left with no reason for this plot to kick off. (I'm glad about that, to be honest; the beating lost all of its weight due to the poison - and unpopular opinion time! - I feel the poison was the better plotline anyway.)

The whole castle would celebrate Raziye's birth. After her disappointment over SS giving the ring to Hürrem and her slow, gripping realization that she is losing him bit by bit, Mahidevran would regain her happiness with Raziye. Maybe there would be some momentary sadness that she didn't have a boy at first, but the child would still embody the little hope of Mahi returning to SS's favor again and for happiness and peace to still be possible in the castle. I see Mahidevran be relieved and even moved to tears over this birth and she would embrace Raziye in her arms immediately after the nurse gives her to her. Valide, Hatice and Gülfem would be right next to her and they would share her joy. Little Mustafa would also be joyful: he would be more welcoming to a sister than to a brother at this point since that automatically means he would take care of her and help her get a grasp of this new world. With a sister instead of a brother, the fear of his father not giving him attention, not loving him anymore wouldn't be there. Hürrem would have more mixed feelings: on one hand, her reaction could be somewhat similar to the way Mahidevran reacted to Mihrimah's birth - relief and a hint of rejoice over it being a girl instead of a boy, due to the belief she would show after a while that having a boy matters most and gives you the most advantage, but on the other hand, Hürrem's still early in her path of figuring out how the system works, so any sign of favorable circumstances for the other side could be way more of a threat to her now than it would be if Mahidevran had Raziye later on. The fear of SS turning back to Mahidevran would definitely be on the back of her mind and could even increase to an extent.

And, at least for a while, the relationship between Süleiman and Mahidevran would take a more positive turn with Raziye. They would spend more time together and that could be similar to how they were like in Manisa. Süleiman would cherish Raziye quite a bit, especially because she would be the first girl he has for some time, but then a part of this cherishing would go to Mihrimah instead. Mihrimah would surely be favored over Raziye, because a daughter from the woman he actually loves would make the difference and SS himself would still be the prick who revels in favoritism he usually is, so... Besides, SS and Mahi would still have a fallout eventually, both because the poison can still happen (maybe at a later point than it did in the show, but still? Mahi would be calmer and more confident in front of her rival due to things looking up to her at last and having Raziye, but that hatred and resentment she has for her wouldn't disappear.) and SS would continue giving his attention to Hürrem after the not so long-lasting shared joy with Mahi because of their daughter and they would get closer either way.

Though, this isn't to say that Raziye's presence wouldn't turn the tables for her mother at all in certain ways. Mahidevran would still fall into despair after losing SS and her wounds wouldn't heal, in fact they could get even bigger now with her knowing that SS's inclined to leave her behind even after she gave him another child, but perhaps she would feel less alone with the little Raziye next to her. And given Raziye just came into being, she would feel a sense of duty when it comes to the child. She would have to focus on taking care of not only Mustafa, but Raziye too (and unlike Mustafa, Raziye needs that constant care: she won't be away for lessons almost the whole day and Mahi can hand her to her maids or Gülşah only for so long. She has to be next to her as much as she can.) and that, while urging her to try and keep even more appearances that all is okay in front of everyone, would take her mind off of what upsets her so strongly as much as possible. She would take solace in taking care of Raziye and give her as much of her time as she can because she has just stepped into that world and it's up to Mahidevran to be her guide. What I mean to say is, despite of all the ways the outside world would impact her, she would be busy with Raziye. She would fall out of love with SS quicker because the situation between her and SS after Raziye would empower her awareness and perceptiveness of the system and she would detach more and more from her love for SS every day. Both Mustafa and Raziye would give Mahi more strength, more motive to protect both of them and live for both of them. Raziye would help Mahi strive to be her best self and recover faster from what she's been through in Topkapi.

Raziye's name means "one who accepts, one who gives consent, one who obeys" (thank you, @astrangechoiceoffavourites ! <3), so I see her with a very open, supportive, and loyal personality. She would be one who would observe the world around her and try to make the best of every situation. That's why even if something upsets her early on, she would come to accept it. She would try to understand every possible point of view (and that immediately makes her less stubborn than Mustafa and is why both he and Mahi would count on her when it comes to advice and making decisions.) and is quick into empathizing if she finds an understandable reason for someone's behavior, hence she can also be quite easily convinced on the righteousness of a certain action and people could take advantage of this early on. She strives to be on decent terms with everyone she knows. But at the same time, if she loves someone, she loves dearly. As much as she can be open to others, her family is always the closest to her heart and she looks up to them for guidance as much as they look up to her. She isn't as boastful about her position as a royal sultana as her sister is (so she wouldn't constantly order her servants around and tell them how she's unlike other princesses), but she isn't above using it when it's necessary, as Mahidevran herself would advice her to do.

Raziye would, predictably, have a deep bond with her mother. She would be there for her in her sorrow and would always lighten her mood. Due to her openness, she would constantly try to find a reason for the injustices Mahidevran is subjected to at first, but that doesn't seem to succeed. She would get a big grasp on Mahidevran's inner world and the more she comes to learn, the more she sympathizes with her. She would support her nearly unconditionally and can't help but agree with her on almost everything, except her wanting to kill Hürrem's children in E55. Her mother would be like her closest friend and she would share everything with her, both when it comes to matters she, according to Raziye, should totally know about and more personal stuff, in contrast with Mustafa who usually withholds more once he is older. She would often tell her mother of even the smallest good thing that's happened to her, like finding a maid she likes very much and befriending her or mastering a musical instrument, for the happiness of both her mother and herself. I see Mahidevran, along with other things, to give special attention to Raziye's appearance right from the start. She would brush her hair, help her pick fabrics for dresses, give advice for hairstyles and overall look, etc. No matter how much her mother tries, appearance would never become such a big priority in her life, but she enjoys talking about it with Mahidevran since it makes for a fun time between only the two of them. Mahidevran and Raziye could get into arguments when it comes to what's the best for Mustafa but they come to a consensus sooner or later.

Raziye loves her brother very very much and the same goes for Mustafa. I don't see Mahidevran preferring one over the other, so this way the mutual fondness would be more possible. Right from the beginning, Mustafa would look out for Raziye and always ask if she needs something while she was still a baby and needed care. Then as she grows up, he would get her into studying and lessons; despite of him not enjoying going to school himself, now it would be a bit different with a company. Both of them would share what they've learned. He would also get her into Farsi and Italian eventually and bring her to meet and befriend Ibrahim. Mustafa and Raziye would joke and laugh and enjoy playing together in the gardens and the castle. Post-E46 and in Manisa/Amasya, Mustafa would be more open to Raziye than he is to his mother regarding his love life and what he's up to overall, but he wouldn't accept interference from her, either. This stubbornness is not something Raziye had ever liked about Mustafa and while she has tried to understand it time and time again, the more we go, the more she leans towards opposing it. She fully sides with Mahidevran when it comes to securing his future and she would also try to stop him from going to SS's tent when it was obvious he would execute him. [When it comes to the people around Mustafa: she would get along with Efsun at first, but then she would come to suspect her and discover her true intentions, but a bit too late. She would be with Mahi in terms of Elena. She would come to like Mihrunnisa a lot, though, and she and Nergisşah are besties, relating to each other in the amount of dedication they have for their family. Also, Raziye has a close rapport with Taşlicali and they talk a lot about Mustafa's activities in the sanjacks. She gets a close outlook on the issues surrounding Mustafa and that can be of big help. I agree that her loving and/or having a marriage arranged with Taşlicali would be too much like Atike and Gevherhan. I wouldn't put it past the writers to have pulled off something like that if they had Raziye as Mahi's daughter, no, I'm almost sure that's exactly what would've happened, but I personally wouldn't have her involved in such a thing, either. She would learn that Mihrimah loves Taşlicali firsthand and would support her for that, albeit unsure of the possibility of it and how well is everyone around going to take it, but that's it.]

Raziye gets along well with her aunts. I see Hatice being as fond of Raziye as she is of Mustafa and she would visit her often and support her. Hatice would try her best to make sure she and Mihrimah are on good terms, she would be the peacekeeper between them when they argue. Raziye would be more confident to share personal issues with Hatice out of all her aunts. With Şah, on the other hand, she would be most confident to talk about politics and how to secure Mustafa's future in the best way. Şah would be happy to provide that guidance and would complement her on supporting her brother this much (as family and dynasty always stick together!), but she would advice her to tread carefully and not interfere when she shouldn't. Raziye and Beyhan would be on decent terms, but they simply won't encounter each other that much, because Beyhan isn't around as much as the others. Raziye and Fatma, however... I see them working together in Mustafa's favor. Raziye would already be involved enough by this point. They would be an awesome team and Raziye would be a fan of Fatma's fun nature.

Raziye and Mihrimah's relationship would be complicated. They would get along more when they're little, doing as many activities together as possible. They would distance themselves from one another sometimes due to their opposing parents (and Mahidevran would also try to keep Raziye far from Hürrem), but that doesn't last long. Both want to get to know one another, given that they're the only daughters of the sultan. They would trust each other enough to share at first and I see them talking quite a bit about the complicated situation surrounding their parents and brothers. There would also be that occasional banter between them like the one of Mihrimah and Esmahan, but to a lesser extent. As both Raziye and Mihrimah get more firm in supporting their parties, their paths would definitely separate, perhaps to the point of them completely opposing each other.

I also see Raziye and Hürrem as complicated, albeit more antagonistic right out of the gate. Raziye would resent Hürrem due to what Mahidevran has experienced because of her; when she's little, she would let it out on her when they meet, but when she grows up, she would still be reserved at Hürrem, but would try not to show it. At times, she would try to understand Hürrem's point of view, but she would fail. Hürrem wouldn't immediately target Raziye and would make attempts to be decent to her when they're in the same room, but she would keep an eye on her when she comes into her own and may encourage Mihrimah to distance herself from her. She might act against her if necessary. Raziye would fully stand against her once she starts scheming against Mustafa. There would be no turning back now. [Despite of her strained relationship with Hürrem, she would get along just fine with her children. I see her getting along the best with Cihangir and Bayezid, appreciating their devotion to Mustafa a lot.]

I don't think the plot would change too much with Raziye around as Mahidevran's daughter, we would just get more heartbreak. She may have a hand in preventing some of Mustafa's actions that let SS suspect him like the marriage to Helena, but that's about it. She would try to influence the events in her favor as much as she can, but I doubt she would succeed to stop the inevitable. I see SS having less and less regard for her as she grows older: he'll both favor Mihrimah over her and sour on her just like he soured on Mustafa. Even if she tried obeying him and respecting his decisions as much as possible (which I do imagine "my" Raziye to do), things sadly won't end well for her family. She would totally oppose SS after Mustafa's death, she would totally bury any love she might have had for her father and he, as the horrible prick he is, wouldn't let that slide. He may marry her off just like he did Nergisşah although she may try to stop it at first and for Mahidevran to prevent her attempts, saying a marriage is for the better, or, worst case scenario, he could kill her along with little Mehmet (that may sound far too extreme, but we're talking S04 SS here....). She would enrich the dynamics, there could be a love story or two with her (Atmaca x Raziye 😍🤔 or Yavuz x Raziye, but that would be even more heartbreak for Raziye, so no, thanks, even though such scenario would befit S04 perfectly, no lie. :( And if Raziye and Atmaca are a thing, Atmaca perhaps wouldn't have gone with Bayezid?), but the general plot would remain the same, only with some tweaks here and there.

[awkward-sultana]

Magnificent Century + Nurbanu Sultan in purple (requested by @illusorybeing)

[minetteskvareninova]

Sorry I am asking a lot of questions but what are your favorite and least favorite subplots from each season? I once asked illusorybeing the same question as well.

Hmm... I thought about it a lot, but honestly you would have to ask me after the rewatch!

In season 1, Sadika trying to kill Süleyman was probably my favourite (though I also enjoyed the secret relationship of Hatice and Ibrahim). The title of least favourite would have to go to Leo, just because of the pointlessly dark ending.

In season 2 - well, this is going to sound weird, but my favourite was Fatma trying to seduce Mustafa. Although Ayşe Hafsa and Hürrem battling for dominance was also pretty enjoyable (even if I did hate the old hag with all my heart). Least favourite was the bullshit with Isabela Fortuna, hands down.

Again, you will have to ask me after the rewatch, but so far it's pretty clear that Hürrem vs Şah (&Hatice) is my favourite part of the show. Least favourite... Well, before the rewatch, I would say Firuze, but no, it's Mihrimah's romantic escapades, especially once Bali and Esmahan get involved. The Nurbahar scandal is also pretty pointless and boring.

I REALLY have to rewatch season 4, because I remember loving it, but especially the second half is somewhat blurry in my mind. With that said, from what I can remember, Nurbanu and Selim getting together was pretty cool. As for the least favourite... I disliked how much Mustafa's execution was dragged out, and I wasn't wild about Mihrimah and Pedro either.

As for season 1 of Kösem (haven't seen the entire season 2 yet)... Beginning of Ahmet's relationship with Kösem was cool, as well as the whole thing with Fahriye. On the other hand, Katerina Hatun, Yasemin Hatun and Osman's entire love life (especially the Osman-Meleksima-Mehmet love triangle) were the most pointless bullshit I've ever seen and left me colder than the winter after Mehmet's execution.

[hurremsultanns]

What are your thoughts on Safiye?

I think Safiye was an awesome and interesting character and we should have seen more of her life.

I think that Safiye was a really interesting character. It's very easy to characterise her as someone solely motivated by her own power, but she does also genuinely care about her children. As seen by both her reaction to Fahriye's death and her rescuing baby Iskender when Mehmet III took the throne. It's not explored as much as it could be, but Safiye is a deeply traumatised person and it's clear that the massacre when her son took power affected her deeply. This doesn't mean that she didn't use her children as a way to get power, but there's a lot of complexity to her there.

Her relationship to other powerful women is also very interesting. She admires Hürrem even though she never met her. And the version of Hürrem that she looks up to is very telling: her power, influence and ruthlessness. Something which is only one facet of who Hürrem was. Her core humanity was also always a significant theme for Hürrem. And while she hid that from others, she never tried to lose it altogether or give it up completely. Meanwhile her humanity is something that Safiye feels the need to bury far deeper than Hürrem ever did. Warmth, fire, love and passion were all key to who Hürrem was. Whereas Safiye boasts that her heart is an 'expensive stone'. Colder, less moved by emotions but worth more (in her view). This reflects how so much of Safiye's original identity has been lost. And that's not entirely her fault either. Mihrimah was using her in her scheme against Nurbanu. And because of this Safiye had to lie about her past: saying that she was a Baffo and a Venetian when really she was Albanian. So her whole identity as 'Sultana of Sultanas, Safiye Sultan' is something that she's built from scratch. And these experiences honestly make it understandable why she's such a girlboss rights activist. Because her whole sense of who she is is so tied up in that. So it makes sense that she's the most regal Sultana. I'm glad that the show writers made the use of her historical correspondance with Elizabeth I, and I'm glad that it fit so neatly into this aspect of her characterisation. And I think Elizabeth the cat fits this so well. Because it highlights this and also adds the associated connotations of royalty that a cat inherently has (they're related to lions, and cats just have an inherently regal air to them).

She's also a deeply tragic character in her own way. The series opens with her having had to bury her true identity, (by implication) having suffered at Nurbanu's hands and lived through the cull of the heirs. And her death scene is framed as tragic and is probably one of her most humanising ones in the whole show. The point about her self-created identity gets emphasised by the fact that she dies as she takes the ring off her finger. Showing how dependent her identity and self-perception were on her status. And her whole speech to Kösem about the significance of the ring adds to this. And it shows how she also views the Sultanate of Women almost as a Dynasty in and of itself. Which emphasises her more regal attitude than hte other Sultanas as well. Which comes back again to that theme of how she has constructed her identity. And I'm glad that all of this was touched on because it gave such a sensitive approach to her death that I thought was very appropriate.

Finally, I do think she was somewhat done dirty because a lot of her life and therefore character growth happened between the end of MY and the beginning of MY:K. We never see her evolution from the concubine who's essentially a pawn in Mihrimah's power scheme to the powerful and ruthless Sultana she is in MY:K. I think there would have been a lot of complexity to explore there, and the fact that never got to happen did her a disservice. We were robbed of a Nurbanu vs. Safiye show.

[mc-critical]

What are your thoughts on Ibrahim? For me it went from indifference and dislike in season 1 to liking in season 2 and becoming my favorite male character in season 3 tbh. Actually the only good male character by season 3 (season 4 has many other options too). He is probably the most complex and well written character and I really sympathise with him. His arrogance was his downfall but if Suleyman wasn't such a bitch it wouldn't have been lol. He wasn't wrong in that imo. He was a slave, a fisherman's son but his intelligence and skill took him farther than anyone else and it's not wrong to be proud of such a feat. He deserved the pride more than just about anyone, even Suleyman. What I dislike the most about him is his treatment of Nigar after their relationship ended. She's my favorite character and although their relationship itself was my favorite in the whole show (other than Nurbanu and Selim) it ended really badly

Ibrahim is one of my most conflicting characters on the series: one time I feel like I don't get the appeal, especially not the stans in one Bulgarian forum, he doesn't elicit such a strong emotional reaction in me as he does in others, but then once he hits an incredibly strong arc and I begin to analyze his character and all its dimensions, I come to love him for what he is and realize how much effort has gone in conceiving and developing him. He's certainly the most well-written male character that isn't a sultan or a prince in the entire franchise. (the sultans aren't the brightest, but the bar is so high when it comes to their writing. There isn't any of them that is badly written. The princes are also well developed, but now that I think about it, Ibrahim surpasses some of them as well!) He's delightfully fleshed out with every detail; his actions, while morally ambiguous at times, are very understandable and you can clearly see the deeper, nuanced reasons why he does what he does. His arc was a sight to see from beginning to end and watching it reach its inevitable tragic conclusion was heartwrenching. At a point he became so important to the narrative, whether it was intentional or not, that the show (or actually, S03B in particular, because S04 was absolutely fantastic!) began to lowkey miss something without him. He had such a strong presence that couldn't be matched by anyone else after him.

[To be brutally honest though, I find his dynamic with Hürrem in terms of screentime to be kinda overrated. Not that it's bad or anything, quite the contrary - their chemistry was great, they were consistent and fun to watch, they had quite a few great scenes that were definetly more than Hürrem and Mahidevran's, I dare even say this is one of the most solid antagonistic dynamics of Hürrem's writing-wise, but I just find it sometimes gets way too much credit? It's weird, I know.]

The most interesting thing about him is, without a doubt, his fatal flaw that I... actually don't think is arrogance. It's not up for argument that Ibrahim can definetly come off as arrogant, but the arrogance is rather a manifestation of his fatal flaw, not his fatal flaw itself. I believe that it's precisely his inferiority complex that is the root of his vulnerabilities: as you said, he's been only a fisherman in Parga, and his background is both a source of memories where he can recall his more "innocent" days with his family and a tough spot for him where he is consistently reminded of something that is already in the past after all he has achieved. He did want to return to Parga, to see who he used to be one more time, but after that it's as if he never gets a chance to forget, to put it behind him. He pretends he has forgotten, but that consistent reminder of how he has started seems to be constantly haunting him to the point he begins to remind himself of it. It's not only people like Figani, Iskender Çelebi or the other members of the divan in early S01 that don't let him forget, it's as if he himself doesn't want to forget. It's undeniable that he had climbed up to heights he wouldn't dream of and the role of a grand vezier needed getting used to and to be dealt with with care. On one hand, we could argue that he reminds himself of Parga as a way to preserve his moral compass, in a way, to realize when and how he has screwed up or remind himself of the limitations of how far can he go, for Süleiman is his friend and companion who he wouldn't want to disappoint. But on the other hand, the more he rose in the hierarchy, the stronger became a wish for him to exceed these limitations placed upon him by everyone around. Süleiman is able to give him everything if he wishes, so why not let it happen? Then he's going to prove to everyone, prove to his inner demons, this sense of inferiority that he, in fact, can not only become the most politically adept grand vezier there is, but a person who has his own country within the country and can rule it with ease. The political arena ultimately becomes a target of his inner conflict where he projects more power than anyone else, is most influential and does the best in order to gain the goal, not only to gain SS's approval, but show that, yeah, he can do his best for the role he's put in, fixating on the Ottoman country he claims to be a ruler of and his apparently endless rights. It turns into a coping mechanism where he can escape his past and background and he gets so sucked in it that his self awareness becomes less and less. That's where his arrogance comes from and I feel that if he didn't possess that complex of his, he would've managed things way better and had more self control, as a result. He was a very good politician in the show, setting in motion many good strategies (his strategy gave them the Mohacs victory after all), having a strong, pragmatic mind and many innovative ideas and if he didn't try his hardest to convince himself he's worth something that isn't just the story of the fisherman in Parga, Hürrem wouldn't stand a chance against him.

This inferiority complex is the reason for his infidelity, too. He loves Hatice dearly and he never expected that she of all people would do the very thing he dreads the most. Her pulling rank on him came as such a shock for him that it seemed he would never forget or forgive. It put infinetly more salt to the wound, deeply hurting his ego and the self-esteem he was just beginning to gain. That's why he let himself in Nigar's hands for so long, for she would only want to please him, for that relationship would have no limitations whatsoever and wouldn't restrict Ibrahim in any way. It was something that was his, something the dynasty would never touch or learn about. I love Nigar and Ibrahim's relationship, too. Principally, I'm not a fan of love triangles at all, but that one is a notable exception for how wonderfully, but crushingly psychological it is. It wasn't added in only for the sake of the drama, it was set up for very long and it was like the characters actually got there through their own actions and they had to truly face that struggle to flesh out and evolve. But there wasn't genuine love there, not in Ibrahim's part. That was his biggest weakness speaking, causing the illusion of love, not the real feeling of it. He wanted to preserve this relationship as the fisherman in Parga, but to me, it felt like he showed something more similar to his own confident assertions of the power of a grand vezier than actual regard for Nigar's feelings. It all was a lie he wanted to believe, because of his ego's denial, and he believed it so much he told Nico that Nigar was the person he truly loved in E51. And when he did get out of the lie (the monologue in E57), see how he reacts differently in front of her now - he turns off every single try of hers to give him affection, he reacted very badly when he learned she was pregnant, it was as if he wanted her to wake up from the dream and move on, too? And due to his inner conflict that perpetuates his arrogance grew even more in S03, he got over Nigar, but not over her child. Esmanur's birth made him return to and enforced his old habits that made him consider that child as another piece of solace, something out of the dynasty, also only his, trying so desperately to have her live with him and Hatice. The infidelity and the way he treated Nigar after he realized the error of his ways are ones of the worst things Ibrahim did, along with Leo (now, I get he wanted to knock Hürrem down a peg, but that was admittedly much for me.) and while I understand why these events and interactions came to fruition, I can't justify him for them.

I agree that had Süleiman not given him as much power, his inferiority complex would be highly downplayed, at the very least. He underestimated the possible consequences of Ibrahim's rise and it really doesn't look like he knows him as much as he thinks he does. Whether he did it to test him (SS's lasting reminders that Ibrahim gets closer to death) or because he loves him dearly and wants to embrace his potential ("I want you to use that mind only for me!") or both, it's like he gave him both too much freedom and too many boundaries at once. I mean, I understand why SS executed Ibrahim: his affirmations, no matter their backstory and how metaphorical they are, pose a definite threat for a padişah and along with his growing paranoia of betrayal, he couldn't be sure how far he was going to go anymore. It's as if Ibrahim crossed every line, openly acting like he controls the padişah and his state in front of the fellow pashas, efendis and ambassadors and that couldn't be controlled anymore. It's as if he had done his best efforts to bring him down to earth, but since none of it was working, he decided to act accordingly. The many "failures" of Ibrahim have been piling up in the narrative in the span of 81 episodes and I get why SS would finally snap for what was the final straw. However, doing so much unprecedented stuff for a grand vezier was bound to bring disasters for the padişah due to the chance in his mind that he would try to question or prevail over him, hence Süleiman should've realized that it was only natural one would want more and more. And that happened with S03 Ibrahim - he fought more and more with his inner demons, hence wanting to have more and more to be validated by the others and by his own ego that perhaps wouldn't feel satisfied regardless.

While his fatal flaw underlines his complexity, it also gets complimented by his many positive qualities: his love for Hatice was very sweet in the beggining and after the Nigar plot, it turned out to be really genuine - their reconciliation was very telling in that aspect; his relationship and loyalty to Süleiman deserves respect, even though his inferiority complex came in the way, he still would never give him up and never once lost hope in his recovery when he was in his deathbed and while that may become up for debate in S03, he would never openly stand against him and would gladly try his best to please him; his bond with Mustafa is amazing, too - I love how he practically raised that kid and gave him sound advice as well as his mother; that said, his relationship with Mahidevran deserves more appreciation and it is one of the most reciprocal and understanding, soft and "carefee" dynamics of the show; I love his dedication to his family and how he loves them as much and remembers them with the same fondness as ever before. In short, when going in depth, this multifaceted character has so much to offer, like, wow!

Okay, when I first watched the show, there was that point where I felt Ibrahim overstayed his welcome and I even wanted for Hürrem to finish him already (heh, those were the days! 😅) but now when I've rewatched and reexamined MC many times, I see that despite of his few negative traits, everything about this character flows so well and so organically and it's one of the characters in the series that have aged really well with time in my eyes. And I respect him so much for that.

[mc-critical]

Do you think Mercan and Şah Sultan were in love? If so, was it only platonic? I really ship them tbh

I feel like Mercan definetly had something for Şah with the way he was protective of her, gladly obeyed her orders and told her to take him with her in E103. It probably was some kind of an affection he knew wasn't possible to be shared.

Şah, on the other hand, didn't really love him (since she had deep seated feelings for Ibrahim which she had overcome by the time she came in the castle), but appreciated the loyalty that she knew no one else had for her. He was the one she trusted most of all and it pained her to let him go - but she was firm in her decision and thought it was for the best both for her and for him. Maybe she wanted to leave him with a sense of purpose after she has lost her own (she didn't want to fight with a person from her own blood).

So yeah, I don't think it was love, per say, not in the way we know it due to the class discrepancies, but Şah and Mercan certainly cared for one another and while I don't exactly ship them, I don't mind anyone who does all that much, tbh. The dynamic between them is incredible and they sure deserve each other. Love or not, they were an iconic duo.

[mc-critical]

Is it just me or is Esmahan a terrible daughter? I really don't like her. Her father domestically abused her mother and for her Şah Huban decided to spare Lütfi Paşa's life but after Lütfi was exiled instead of staying with her mother she left her alone and went to her father who beat her mother.

{I don't really like Esmahan too much as a character as well, because she felt a little flat in many instances with the prevalence of her rivalry with Mihrimah and the only storyline they involved her with in a major way with was the Bali Bey- Mihrimah- Esmahan love triangle, which didn't help her case, but I don't mind her that much and I can take her or leave her overall. they should've married her to Mehmet smh }

I don't agree with Esmahan's decision to stay with her father in the slightest, but I expected it, because she was hinted to have a biased outlook on him even before the whole incident happened. She loved him a lot and while we didn't have so many significant scenes with them as far as I recall, it was clear that she had a deeper attachment to him than to her mother. That's why she both came and left with him, respectively.

I get what it's like to favorize a parent - you come to idealize him, try to justify him for his bad deeds or want to be in his presence as much as you can. The beating was a scandal Esmahan wasn't a witness of, which is also a factor to her biased thinking. And to have your favourite parent executed is terrifying to even think about. Esmahan realizes that he did something bad, but considers execution far too extreme and she may believe that her father, after he was practically saved from death, was the one who needed more support in that moment.

It is her choice and she has chosen to live with it, but that doesn't mean she's right. I also don't view it as fair to Şah, especially since she was shown as such a good mother to Esmahan. In rewatch you really notice how despite of her cold pragmatism, Esmahan is probably is the person who matters most to her. And you see why - Şah put herself in a loveless marriage because of her ambition (Mehmet Yozgür confirmed it in the MC "Secret World" documentary series) and when she doesn't come to love her husband (even though she gets used to the life with him), she has to focus on her daughter: the best thing to come out of her marriage with Lütfi. Şah was constantly worried about her, constantly checked on her, was ready to make Mihrimah pay if she did something to her daughter and most importantly, she put Esmahan's feelings above her own. Even if she could've agreed to say, marry her to Bali Bey, because it still falls in line with her schemes and would provide her more political, yet objective support, you're absolutely right in that her sparing Lütfi for Esmahan's sake is very important. Because what Lütfi did, including the reason she confronted him and the domestic abuse itself, hurt her pride in ways she never had known. She couldn't even stand off the ground for some time, she teared up and that stayed, much after it happened. It was a blow to her position of a sultana and a woman. It was disgraceful, unacceptable for her. Of course she would want the punishment for him to be the one he has to endure, the one he deserved. Şah letting go of that because of someone she loves more than anything means letting go of her own pride, a part of who she is and that is big, because it does imply in she's ready to do absolutely anything for her daughter.

And that is rooted in some of their dynamic as well - Esmahan was usually wanting something of Şah, usually in need and Şah tried her best to deliver. And with leaving her behind, it was as if she didn't consider that at all. I don't think she meant bad or that she doesn't love her mother at all, she is young (and a little spoiled) and she might have wanted her comfort zone back without realizing the extent of Lütfi's crime. But calling her a bad daughter (at least of her mother) certainly wouldn't be all that unreasonable.

[mc-critical]

How do you think Şah Huban and Ibrahim's relationship really was? We've never been given insights about it and while I would have loved flashbacks, the way it is also fits well imo. Şah has an air of mystery around her, part of why I love her so, because I love unravelling ambiguous yet clear characters with hints but not insights to their backstory. I've always been drawn to them and Şah Huban is another one of them.

Personally, I can see why they would be drawn to each other at first. They are both shown as appreciative of art, very intelligent and pragmatic and have a similar personality, but in the long run I can't see them working as both prefer to be the dominant partner and Şah is very prideful and always maintains a power balance with those not from the family, whereas Ibrahim is quite insecure. They'd clash.

Even Hatice's reminder of his status hurt him so much that he started an affair with Nigar. According to him, it was a loss of innocence between them and for sure Hatice's innocence, purity, and nativity is what I think drew him to her, and I can see why. Among all the darkness of politics, power plays, his own insecurities and early loss of innocence, Hatice would have been the one ray of light to him..Their entire early interactions and love was so pure and free of darkness and I don't think he ever had that with Şah, who I don't think was ever innocent.

Şah also told Hürrem that Ibrahim is quite difficult to control and I thought that was maybe hinting at the past. It always seemed to me that she was the one who ended things with Ibrahim, judging by her and Ibrahim's interactions ( I really wish we had more of those ) and I have many theories why.

Also, my personal interpretation is that she did move on from Ibrahim and only had vestiges of her feelings for him, his memories to be more precise, left by the time we see her. Unlike many people, I don't think her unwillingness to be with Lütfi sexually or romantically has anything to do with Ibrahim. I just don't think she loves him or wants him and I can see why tbh. While he is a decent enough politician, he doesn't have much personality to be attracted to nor demeanor lmao. even the way he read her that piece of poetry was quite dry, and he is visibly much older than her.

What do you think?

{I also love Şah's character for much of the same reasons you do. Her lack of a backstory and more simplistic design that isn't put through a deconstruction for a character arc in the way Hatice's was during S02/3 bring us one of the most unique characters in the whole franchise. These aspects of her personality complement her motivation and I find her motivation to be the most fascinating element about her that makes for an interesting, contrasting duality in all her relationships. Revealing more backstory for her risks throwing all this out of the window, that's why I'm usually okay with that the show not delving deeper into her past.}

Still, in the case of Ibrahim, I agree that we could've seen a few more flashbacks. I feel Şah's distance and tiny resentment of Hatice stems from her previous feelings for Ibrahim and more flashbacks would put that distance and resentment into more context, which I don't think would harm her character all that much. It would actually help flesh out Şah's relationship with Hatice on a deeper level and that's always welcome for me, since I found their relationship to be the epitome of where Şah's character shines the most. All these delicious contrasts, the way her ambition goes with the care she has for the people she's closest to.... I love it! sorry for the blabbering

I also pretty much agree with your view on Şah and Ibrahim's relationship. They definetly wouldn't get on all that well - their ideals would clash right out of the gate and Şah isn't a person that would pull rank out of ignorance, it's not something she wants to detach from, no, she's living with her position and she's proud of it. Anytime Ibrahim would disagree with Şah, I feel she's going to pull rank instantly. And that's not something that Ibrahim would bear - Hatice did it one time and that one time was enough to make him doubt his whole relationship with her, I believe with Şah it's going to be an even more reccuring conflict and it's going to make things even worse.

I believe that in Manisa, in their past, Şah didn't have hopes for so long when it came to Ibrahim. Maybe she learned very quickly that he didn't have any feelings for her. Maybe Ibrahim didn't pay all that much attention to Şah and if she tried to give him subtle hints, he didn't catch on them at first. If Ibrahim and Hatice indeed had tiny crushes on each other that just hadn't had the chance to flourish yet in Manisa (as the flashback from E58 implied) and Şah became aware of this? All these factors could've contributed to Şah moving forward, along with her ambitious personality. Even her older self isn't a person who would fight what she views as a pointless battle (she didn't want to fight Mihrimah, she didn't get why Hürrem was such a problem at first, she could hold her part in the decisions SS made for Hatice off for so long) and her love for Hatice was apparently present even when they were kids (the whole horse situation), so these would be decent enough reasons for her to want to step out of it.

Her getting to know Ibrahim more personally after he could've gotten the hint is very likely, too. Her "he's difficult to control" line is definetly something to ruminate on: maybe she decided that they wouldn't get along despite of all, because yes, she would like to be on the more controlling side of the relationship. Not only is Ibrahim very insecure and wouldn't handle it when someone is pulling rank on him, this line could hint that a part of Ibrahim has had that ambitious side of him back in Manisa. Not as much in terms of power, but rather as in his sharp mind and dreams he had together with SS to conquer more than Alexander the Great and maybe Şah felt this aspect of his ambition whenever they've interacted. That means he could have exerted some amount of control in the relationship, and maybe Şah wouldn't be so okay. Both could be very dominating and that could very well show even earlier. There wouldn't be any innocence in their relationship, it would only result in clash of personalities and philosophies and probably both of them got aware of this. While with Hatice it was possible for both of them to get over their extremely idealistic delusions, because they both were able and willing to reason with one another deep down, you wouldn't get that with Şah. It's probable she would consider herself right and not realize what's wrong, especially in terms of pulling rank, because well, that's what the tradition and law stands on and for her, Ibrahim's only role is to fit the mold.

Yup, Şah definetly had some of her feelings for Ibrahim remaining, because that's what moved a lot of her conflict with Hatice. Maybe she felt some jealousy that Hatice succeeded to make this work and that could be also a part of why she wanted to stop Hatice from grieving and didn't tell her where Ibrahim's grave was, but on the other hand, she had accepted it to an extent, as seen by her reaction when she learned about the infidelity. One could argue that she got irritated because of her own feelings, but I feel she felt bad for Hatice, too, and was really surprised that he pulled something like this. Yet both circle back to her own feelings anyways. Another reason why I think she didn't get over her feelings for him completely is that (most of) what she does is driven by personal desire and attacks directed to her personal bonds and attachments. It's Hatice's suicide attempt that drove Şah to act against Hürrem, but it's also Ibrahim's death that made her at least think whether should she act, in my opinion, because of something so surprising happening to a personal attachment of hers, seemingly all of the sudden. (in E84, she also said in front of Ibrahim's grave that she wouldn't let his blood stay on the ground) Şah's actions are driven by feelings more than anything else, but she tries her best to mask these feelings and only use them as fuel to her more pragmatic plans, if that means letting go of them or discarding them completely. She puts mind over emotion not because she doesn't have emotion or vulnerability or feelings lingering from the past, it's more because she considers pragmatism and careful planning the better, more effective way to achieve her goals. Just like the dynastic views and the elitism, it's something engrained in her she's proud of, but in the case of her feelings, when she's alone or with Hatice she can open herself a bit more. But because she has gotten over Ibrahim, she would never admit outright she has something for him in front of him or Lïtfi later.

I also don't think Ibrahim has ever had feelings for Şah to begin with. I don't think he forgot their experiences and memories completely (the "did your love turn into hate?" line) , but he has definitely left them behind him, even more than Şah herself.

While I think the love for another (Ibrahim) was a part of Şah's distaste for Lütfi, especially because the first hint of conflict between them, as far as I recall, was him sorta shading on Ibrahim in E82, it's definetly not the only factor. He just isn't a guy she could fall in love with, no matter how much he seemed to love her (more like tough love, but still), I'm sure she has gotten to know the more shadier aspects of his character, since they've lived together for so long. (even though the situation around the prostitute surprised her, since she hasn't ever seen such amount of disrespect, Şah may have seen other skeletons in his closet. He seemed to be very authoritarian in the relationship. She also said in E101 that the divorce was a long time coming and I don't think it all originated from the show, the situations there were simply the peak of previous issues.) It being a forced marriage made things even worse, no one would like a forced marriage. I actually admire Şah for keeping up with this marriage for so long and finding advantage in it, being as composed as possible. (when she is) Their daughter is most probably what kept them together all these years, on a personal level outside of Şah's ambition.

[hurremsultanns]

Şah-ı Huban Sultan or Valide Hafsa Sultan? For the make me choose meme

Thanks! This was an easy decision.