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rowyndodendron · 14 days ago

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IPHIGENEIA'S SACRIFCE, AKA: "THAT'S NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED"

Every time someone describes/reduces Agamemnon’s choice to sacrifice Iphigenia as "he killed his daughter to go to war" or "he killed his daughter for favourable winds to get to Troy faster" I lose 10 years off my life. Which means by this point I died approximately 9,000 years ago.

Because y'all...y'all do understand that was NOT the choice, right? Like. It was not "Iphigenia lives, no war" vs "Iphigenia dies, yes war!" That was NOT the choice. That was NEVER the choice. It was NEVER that simple. It was NEVER that easy. IT WAS NEVER ACTUALLY THAT CHOICE AT ALL. The choice is not Iphigenia or war. The choice is not even whether Iphigenia lives or dies. The only actual choice Agamemnon gets to make, realistically speaking, is HOW Iphigenia dies.

ARTEMIS IS A GOD!!!

First of all: Artemis is a GOD. Artemis, the god, DEMANDED Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter to appease her/because she was pissed at him. Do you REALLY think, ignoring the gathered army for a moment (I'll get there), but just thinking purely from an Agamemnon-Artemis standpoint for a moment she would have let him just say no?

Hypothetically, if Agamemnon had said, "eh, nah, don't really fancy killing my own kid, actually, I'll just go home and forget about this war business" do you HONESTLY believe that Artemis would've been like "yeah, cool bro, it's all good, I'm no longer mad about the Special Deer you killed, we're even-stevens, have a lovely trip home, tell the wife I said hello." NO!!!! This is a PUNISHMEMT. This is Artemis taking revenge for Agamemnon’s mistake/in some instances his hubris and boasting. Any circumstance here that does not end with a dead Iphigenia therefore ends with a dissatisfied Artemis. And that ain't happening*.

*I also do NOT believe/credit any 'Artemis was trying to stop the war/emphasise the cost of war/use Iphigenia to show Agamemnon how the innocents suffer in war' takes. Because no. This is the same goddess who, alongside Apollo, murdered 12 of one of Agamemnon’s ancestors children because she boasted about having better pussy game than Artemis' mum. Artemis also shows up to stick her bow in a couple of times in the Iliad for the lolz. And it's clearly stated this war is happening/continuing/not being allowed to end BECAUSE of the gods in the Iliad.

The idea Artemis actually was trying to stop things/believed the war would stop if Agamemnon ~understood the cost~ is bullshit. (Not least because Agamemnon 1) is one of the few Greek Kings present who has firsthand war experience. 2) if you don't know already just…just go google the house of atreus then come back and try telling me fucking AGAMEMNON doesnt understand the suffering of innocents lmfao

This is a standard: mortal pisses off god, god demands they pay the price. The price is Iphigenia being killed. The only real choice Agamemnon has is how that happens. And, beyond the whole “pissed off god” thing (as if that wasn't enough) there are other factors here too:

ITCHY ARMIES

It's been discussed before that Agamemnon is not really alone in making this decision. Because there are: 1,000 ships (give or take) with him, each with, let's say, around 100 soldiers. That equals: a lot of people - around 100,000 soldiers. That's: a lot of fucking people. It's also: a lot of fucking people squished in a not very large space.

Source

See that lil red blob? That's Aulis. See the skinny channel between Aulis and the above chunk of land (which is Eubeoa). Yeh that’s where A Lot of ships are squished. Aulis was an ASSEMBLY point, it was meant to be the place everyone gathered, quick headcount, then yeet. They're not supposed to stay there.

Lots of Regular Ass People, nevermind soldiers, smooshed in one place causes lots of things to happen. None of them are good. Building boredom, and building tension, and building frustration is going to lead to: an increase in fights, scuffles, discontent and discipline issues. Especially amidst a group of soldiers who are newly assembled, newly brought together to mingle with other armies (and there WILL be factions who have previous beefs and are disposed to having enmity with each other). Add into that the fact most of the commanders/kings don't really have any proper experience in war/have just wrangled up their troops that's…a bad set-up and is asking for the army to eat itself alive if left long enough.

Pressures adding onto that, one of which is: disease/sickness. Even without divine help (thanks Apollo!) of plague spreading, lots of people smooshed in small spaces, especially with fighting/injuries, that's going to cause illness and infection. That's: bad.

Also…

“BECALMED!” “I AM CALMED!!!!!”

Something I see talked about LESS but which definitely feels like A Big Problem to me from my EXTENSIVE knowledge of it (thanks Black Sails!) is the ships being what we call ‘becalmed’. This sounds pleasant! It is: not. (Obligatory disclaimer i am Not, in general, A Boat Expert (i actually get seasick looool) BUT, some quick googleage confirms that, as I guessed, this would be: Bad.)

Being becalmed essentially means: the wind goes away, your sailing ship with its lovely big sails is great, a marvel of ancient world exploration! It can't do shit if there's: no wind. It gets stuck. Drifting vaguely and sadly waiting for the winds to pls come back so it can: go somewhere.

This USUALLY happens out on open sea and is very obviously: not desirable. However it can ALSO happen even while ships are at port under ‘certain circumstances’ in this case those circumstances are: pissed off gods. No wind means no movement. No movement means: no war and no Troy. No movement ALSO means: no going home.

“But but but ROWYN! What about the ROWERS!!!The Greek ships, according to Homer (and history) generally had oars!” I hear u boat people shriek. And yes they did! Oar-driven ships can also become becalmed in situations of rowers being: sleepy, the oars being broken or damaged, or currents/winds that are too strong to row against. (Or, mayhaps...an angry god!)

At a certain point the logic of boats etc has to be tempered by, well, temper. Specifically: Artemis’. In theory if we were just dealing with normal old ‘mother nature is being a bitch and has said ‘no winds for now!’’ that's one thing. And under those circumstances the fleet could've likely just oared its way out of port and off to Troy. We also have the element of: a pissed off god to consider.

UNDER PRESSURE (not the fun Queen kind)

The lack of winds is a means of applying pressure. Because, let's be real, no at least semi-reasonable human being (which Agamemnon, largely, WAS) is going to look at a daughter he loves (which Agamemnon evidently DID) and go “alright sweetie, unfortunately papa has to murder you now” without exhausting: ALL OTHER OPTIONS.

That means Artemis had to prevent any other options from working. So that there is an UNAVOIDABLE/INSURMOUNTABLE pressure/some sort of force pushing Agamemnon irresistibly towards: child sacrifice. That means Artemis is not going to let them just casually row their way out of port. Nor is she going to let them go home to abandon the attempt/try again later. She wants Agamemnon to be appropriately punished. Appropriately punished, as Artemis has decided, is Agamemnon killing Iphigenia. That means they are, supernaturally, becalmed. That is: very bad.

There are 100,000+ soldiers PLUS (as the Iliad notes) OTHER crew like rowers and clerks in ADDITION to the soldiers. They do not have supplies prepared to sustain them on an extended stop at what was supposed to just be a meeting place. They are NOT in a place designed to hold/support that many people. The land around them is filled with their OWN people CANNOT feed/water that extra months smooshed in here. And the whole “angry god says no ship movement” means they can't raid further afield/NOT their own people.

Artemis has essentially arranged it so that even if, by some (not-happening) MIRACLE, the kings manage to keep control of their increasingly unruly armies and they avoid in-fighting/mutiny/disease: these people are all going to start dying from dehydration and starvation. And quickly. People who are: in the process of dying from starvation and dehydration are not typically known for their rational minds and good choices. This is going to increase the tension and pressures and fighting/injury. It's going to increase the death toll.

THE ACTUAL CHOICE

So now Agamemnon’s ACTUAL choice, as enforced by, again, THE LITERAL GOD is: how many of your men are you going to let die before you give in and kill your daughter. With an extra bonus concern of: is your daughter going to get a quick, relatively merciful death or is she going to be torn apart (likely along with Agamemnon, his brother, and inner circle/closest men) by a starving, angry, disease-riddled mob?

This is also, incidentally, why Odysseus gets involved/helps this process. Because much as (apparently) he gets viewed as a ruthless, “ends justify ANY means” borderline sociopathic arsehole: he is not, in actual fact, comfortable with willy-nilly child murder! (What a high bar our blorbos have to clear, y'all…/s). What Odysseus IS capable of/where he excels is logic. And logic (as demonstrated by this feral shrieking which is, believe or fucking not, rooted in logic) says, clearly: Iphigenia is effectively already dead. And was as soon as Artemis made her demand. The only question now is how messy this is going to be/how much Iphigenia is going to suffer for this. Odysseus steps in to try and MINIMISE both (not for the sheer glee of logic-sanctioned child murder, actually)

I WOULD LIKE TO UNINSTALL 'GIVING A FUCK', PLS - Agamemnon

But okay back to Agamemnon and the bonus problem if the starving, angry, disease-riddled mob. Because THOSE PEOPLE are actually also an extra pressure on Agamemnon because he, repeatedly, indisputably and canonically CARES about the lives of the men who have pledged to follow him, and feels guilt/concern which IS STRONGER THAN his stubbornness and pride and just about everything else.

Imma throw some quotations at you now so you can't say this post is JUST me shrieking bc look! Iliad words! (All Iliad references below are from the Richmond Lattimore translation).

'Still I am willing to give her (Chryseis) back, if such is the best way.

I myself desire that my people be safe, not perish. (Iliad, Book 1, Line 116)

HE LITERALLY SAYS IT. LIKE HE SAYS IT RIGHT THERE!!! He tells the army Chryseis is dearer to him than his wife (which is a whole other kettle of fish, i aint getting into that rn) - but the POINT is he loves this woman, and he refused to ransom her back for A Lot Of Money. And he's not HAPPY about it, but as soon as he's told doing so will stop his people dying by plague (thanks Apollo!) he agrees. BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT HIS PEOPLE TO DIE.

"'Still, Zeus, bring to pass at least this thing that I pray for.

Let our men at least get clear and escape, and let not the Achaians be thus beaten down at the hands of the Trojans.’

[Agamemnon] spoke thus, and as he wept the father took pity upon him and bent his head, that the people should stay alive, and not perish.

(Iliad, Book 8, Line 242)

This is LITERALLY what he prays for.

Now keep in mind that in book 2 Zeus sent ‘Evil Dream’ down to Agamemnon and basically ordered him to go attack Troy because Zeus would let him capture the city and be victorious at last. And Zeus straight-up LIED to him. And has done nothing of the sort.

Agamemnon would be well within his rights to be like ‘yo, mate, the FUCK!? Where's my goddamn glory? Where's my victory you yourself promised me like 2 days ago!? Bruh!?!?!?’ (and he does kind of ask WHY, MAN!? WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS!? in the earlier part of this prayer, to be entirely transparent)

But what he ACTUALLY, ACTIVELY PRAYS FOR, is not for victory, or for strength, or personal glory, (which, those who've read the Iliad knows how dang important glory is to everyone/as a central theme), or even the ability to get revenge/payback and kill a bunch of Trojans in return.

Agamemnon asks nothing for himself, or even for vengeance for the dead; he asks for the living. He begs Zeus to please let his men escape and stop them from being slaughtered. And Zeus is so moved by his genuine grief and pain at this that he actually listens, and actually does let the people stay alive, because of Agamemnon’s prayer (and note how the wording echoes Agamemnon’s assertion in book 1- what he desires is his people ‘not perish’, and what Zeus grants in response to his book 8 prayer is that ‘the people…not perish’, further reinforcing that was NOT just talk on Agamemnon’s part).

There are other (many other) instances that prove Agamemnon Cares - but i think we Get It for the purposes of this meta (and I'm going to deep-dive the other examples later anyway), but like you see it, right??? You HAVE to see how much this man GENUINELY cares. He refuses vast amounts of wealth and treasures to ransom back Chryseis - but he's NOT willing to sacrifice any of his soldier's lives and IMMEDIATELY returns her (with additional gifts/his own wealth to make sure things are smoothed over properly). He's so obviously desperate and distraught when he prays, not for glory or victory, that Zeus (who has at this point forbidden his own wife and daughter from interfering to stop the Trojans killing the Greeks) feels pity for him and is moved to help him.

And EVEN IF you wanted to argue that this is an Agamemnon 10 years later and maybe he wasn't like that when the armies first gathered at Aulis…You CANNOT tell me, if THAT is how he responds to random soldiers, many of whom he's likely never even met/doesn't know the names of, yet feels responsibility over because they're HIS people and he is their leader, that he didn't care a thousand times more for his ACTUAL FLESH-AND-BLOOD, HOME GROWN AND RAISED DAUGHTER.

DEATH vs SACRIFICE

I will stand for no more casual “yeah Agamemnon killed his kid for better winds” takes. NO MORE! I WILL HAVE NONE OF IT.

I will permit no further “Agamemnon CHOSE to sacrifice his daughter for the war to go ahead” because did he FUCK. Agamemnon did not CHOOSE to kill Iphigenia. Agamemnon's only CHOICE was how and when she died and how many soldiers went with her.

There was NO way for Agamemnon to save Iphigenia. NONE. Because if there had been ANY alternative AT ALL: he damn well would've fucking taken it. “But but but he could've-” No. He couldn't.

Because Iphigenia's DEATH was not Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge. If it had been Artemis would've just killed her herself, as she did to Niobe's daughters. Iphigeneia's SACRIFICE was Agamemnon’s punishment and Artemis’ revenge.

She wanted HIM to do it. She wanted HIM to kill his child (either by holding the knife, or giving the order, either way). HE had to do that. HE had to actually kill his own child and live with the grief and guilt and consequences of that for the rest of his life. THAT was what she wanted.

He killed her Special Deer and wasn't upset about it, so she wanted him to Feel It. She wanted him to kill something and be tormented by that grief and guilt for the rest of his life, as she felt he should have been over the Special Deer.

Artemis didn't want Iphigenia to die necessarily, she wanted Agamemnon to kill her. (And that's why the last minute switcharoo with the deer on the altar instead works/is sometimes allowed by Artemis- because even if Iphigenia lives, Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer in the knowledge and the guilt that he WOULD have killed her).

WHO LIVES, WHO DIES, WHO TELLS YOU-TO KILL YOUR OWN CHILD? WHAT THE FUCK, ARTEMIS!?

Agamemnon never got to choose if Iphigenia lived or died. The ONLY one who had that power of THAT choice was Artemis herself. (Which is seen, as I mentioned, when sometimes she last minute swaps Iphigenia for a deer (Artemis dropping in another Special Deer for Agamemnon to kill in Aulis like: YOU'LL CARE ABOUT KILLING THIS ONE, MOTHERFUCKER.) and takes Iphigenia as an acolyte instead.

Because (in a rather nice parallel to her father Zeus also being moved by Agamemnon’s pleas to protect his soldiers in the Iliad) Artemis acknowledges that, yeah, this is pretty fucked up actually lol. And she does not necessarily help/forgive Agamemnon - but does protect/spare Iphigenia/his soldiers. And, again as discussed: Agamemnon STILL gets to suffer/live with the consequences of Special Deer Killing Crime with The Guilt…(and also the axe to the face courtesy of Clytemnestra. But I think that was just an added bonus punishment rather than the actual goal tbh)) it's a win-win for Artemis. And a constant soul-crushing loss for Agamemnon.

QUESTION: IMPOSSIBLE CHOICE. ANSWER: GUARANTEED SUFFERING

He could NEVER have saved her. He could NEVER have prevented her death. He could ONLY minimise casualties and suffering. He was in an impossible situation and it could only ever end with the death of his child (or 100,000 random soldiers instead, IF you actually think they'd have all just sat around and died for this, Iphigenia being brought by Agamemnon/Odysseus/Santa Claus or otherwise)That is: FUCKED UP.

It was not about winds. It was not about war. It was not about life or death. It was about saving who and what he could. (Actually it was about: SUFFERING regardless. But in terms of 'what Agamemnon could ACTUALLY influence/change - that's where the minimising agony part comes in.)

ONLY Artemis could stop Iphigenia dying. Agamemnon could only lose. That's why it was a punishment! That's why the story is a tragedy!!! Because there is no way to win.

Try to row to Troy, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Try to row home, fuck your lack of wind/impossible demand: god says no.

Refuse to sacrifice Iphigenia:

-Scenario A: Your army of 100,000 men starve/dehydrate/fight/disease their way to death because they CANNOT LEAVE THIS PLACE* (god says no) or raid/resupply (god says no)

*except to go obtain your child. So she can be killed. Bc that's the only thing the god WOULD allow. (Logic, people).

-Scenario B: they decide to help you out and murder your child for you. (and probably you and all your family/closest allies as well). Which is NOT gonna be pleasant.

Sacrifice Iphigenia: congrats you killed your own kid, you are now: sad forever and you STILL have to fight a 10 year long war.

This is what we call: The Ideal Tragedy. A Lose-Lose-Lose-Lose set-up. Just the way the gods like it.

IN CONCLUSION: THE YEET GRENADE OF FACTS AND TRUTH

Okay is that enough now? Can I please stop yapping about this?? Do we concede that “Agamemnon killed Iphigenia to go to war/for better winds to get to war faster/was just soooo horny for that good sweet bloodshed action that he casually executed his firstborn kid” is NOT WHAT FUCKING HAPPENED!?!?!?

NO CHOICE. NO SAVING. NO OPTIONS BUT SUFFERING: the greek god's FAVOURITE way to punish naughty mortals.

May I now please REST!?!?!? too bad, im gonna. But now i have this rant to yeet at peoples’ heads like a damn grenade of Facts And Truth if ppl start @-ing Agamemnon for this. (And u can yeet it too, feel free. This is not just My grenade now, it is Our grenade).

Agamemnon has lots of other Actual Flaws: can we talk about them instead!? Please!! Please god roast this man in a Factual Way, so i dont feel COMPELLED to defend him. That is literally SO doable. I genuinely beg u.

#Agamemnon #tagamemnon #Iphigenia #Odysseus #Artemis #the iliad #iphigenia at aulis #bro why u do dis to ag anyway?#bc this shit aint in the iliad!!!!#but seems to be THE main or at least one of the main things ppl know/think about in relation to Agamemnon #yeah mister “BROTHER ARE YOU OKAY!? IF YOU DIE I WILL AVENGE YOU. I WILL TEAR THIS CITY DOWN BRICK BY BRICK!!!”#THEN I'LL USE THOSE BRICKS TO BUILD YOU THE BEST BURIAL MOUND THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN SO NO ONE EVER FORGETS YOU #BECAUSE THAT'S HOW MUCH I FUCKING LOVE YOU BRO!!!!#yeah THAT guy. he'd have been 100% down for casually executing his kid to satiate his Need For War #how accurate. much in character. so supported by the canonical facts.......................#y'all did it. y'all finally broke me #i snapped. and THIS is what happens when i snap: NO ONE KNOWS PEACE AGAIN #fr tho will u PLEASE just hate on Agamemnon in a factually accurate way?#PLEASE #Then i can just mute u and move on #and i dont have to do: THIS #AND IT'LL BE DONE AGAIN #BC “AGAMEMNON WAS A SHIT LEADER” IS NOT ACTUALLY ACCURATE ACTUALLY.#AND THAT WILL BE COMING SOON (as soon as i have a laptop)#(yes that means i did write this entire thing on: my phone. bc i was just feeling THAT fruity and unhinged)#TEST ME NOT. READ THE THING. DO NOT CHERRY-PICK BITS OF THE THING AND IGNORE OTHER BITS THAT DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR HATE/PERSONAL VIBES #THAT IS WHY WE HAVE FANFIC. SO YOU CAN WRITE AUs. AND POINT AT THE FACTS/CANON BUT GO “I DONT LIKE THIS SO IM IGNORING IT”#STOP BASING UR CHARACTER HATE/DEPICTIONS/ANALYSIS ON: THINGS THAT ARE PEOPLES' COMMON VAGUE IMPRESSION OF CANON. WHICH IS NOT /ACTUAL CANON/#i beg of thee. i am Too Old to keep doing this (that's a lie ive never felt more alive) BUT EVEN SO: PLEASE. NO MORE!!!!)#long post

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reginarubie · 1 year ago

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When HotD got out everyone was like Oh, Daemyra is the new, improved Jonerys with good storyline

And I didn’t give it too much attention, you know I stay mostly in my line and don’t mess around with shit that doesn’t interest me (like Jonerys) but now that I think of it…

I’ll do you all one better (and maybe I am late at the party as always, because I can’t be the only one noticing this)

Jonsa is the reversed, evolved, less entitled (both Jon and Sansa start as spoiled characters but have their entitlement beaten out of them pretty soon, and we love them for it), more duty-oriented (thank you Ned) Daemyra.

I mean all signs point in that direction and I see you 👀 GRRM pushing the Jonsa agenda further on!

And now I’ll tell you what sources I have to base my logic on (and maybe I am wrong ey, but I think it fits Jonsa more, as of now, though Martin could totally disprove me going the other way confronted to the way the show concluded knowing his ending).

So, at the beginning of the story, Robb becomes king in the North by popular demand.

In the first episode Viserys becomes heir (and later king) by popular demand.

Both Robb and Viserys inherit their position by their much beloved predecessor (Jaehaerys and Ned) and both are ‘named/appointed’ by a conclave of lords/ladies in the Riverlands ffs.

Both Viserys and Robb end up planting, with their own politics, the seeds of the shit storm that almost threatens to destroy their family after their death.

Robb marries Jeyne (Talisa in the show) instead of the Frey betrothed thus snubbing the Freys and going back on his word. He dies without an heir leaving the North in shambles when he had been a step from winning the war.

Viserys names Rhaenyra heir and then — instead of marrying the Velaryon girl — marries Alicent and has more children knowing that if they were male it could cause disrupt with the line of succession.

Both are idolised after their death — Viserys taking the name of The Peaceful thanks to the ruling and politics of his Queen and council and Robb by being sanctified by his siblings and lords even tho he was the one causing most of the problems who caused his death and almost destroyed the North — both Viserys and Robb loose their heirs.

Viserys loses his sons by Aemma

Robb dies childless and his heirs (Bran, Rickon, Sansa and Arya) are to his knowledge lost (Bran and Rickon presumed killed, Arya presumed dead and Sansa married to a Lannister).

The heir that remains them, their younger brother/sister (Daemon and Sansa) is not considered worthy of inheriting after them — Daemon for his character and Sansa because she has been married to a Lannister — so both do the same thing, they disinherit their lawful and rightful heir (yes Bran and Rickon and Arya are alive but Robb doesn’t know it; Viserys will have Aegon, Aemond, Daeron and Helaena but he doesn’t know nor care) to name another as heir someone who, by law, should pass after the rightful heir.

It seems to me like some pretty big parallels here.

Daemon = Sansa

Daemon and Sansa are the second born children of a couple who love each other and apparently their mother’ fav.

And you know what’s sick? Daemon and Sansa both supported their brother’ right to any extent.

Daemon readied men-at-arms and sworn swords to defend Viserys’ claim when people rumoured Corlys wanted to assemble a fleet to defend Laenor’ right after Rhaenys.

Sansa bled for the northern independence when in KL and then later — and this is only show for now — Sansa gathered the northern army and put KL under siege to defend her brother. Sansa is the one who decided to rally the lords of the North behind House Stark once again (Jon was done fighting) and she was the one to offer Bran the role of Lord of WF when he returned from Beyond the Wall.

Despite being loyal to their family in their own way, both Daemon and Sansa are disinherited by their king in favor of someone they love but that by law should have come after them.

By succession tradition and law the brother of a king becomes before the daughter of a king — unless women can inherit the throne which was not the case in Westeros at the time — so Daemon came before Rhaenyra in the line of succession, yet Viserys disinherited him to name Rhaenyra heir.

By law and tradition of succession Sansa as the trueborn eldest surviving daughter of Ned and Cat in the evenience of Robb dying without heirs (Bran and Rickon are both presumed dead) comes before Jon, the base born son of Ned Stark. (Jon himself says so “by law Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa”/“Winterfell belongs to my sister, Sansa”, even though Sansa is a Lannister, a murderess and apparently dissolved in thin air) yet Robb with his will disinherit Sansa to name Jon heir.

Everyone expected Daemon/Sansa to be angry at Jon/Rhaenyra because of it — Rhaenyra herself and the viewer when Jon was named KitN — instead what happened?

Daemon became Rhaenyra’ stauncher supporter and Sansa became Jon’s. Daemon supported Rhaenyra and Sansa supported Jon. When people expected Daemon to lash out when the terms of surrender were issued, he obeyed Rhaenyra order without issue; when the northern lords unsatisfied with Jon’ stay in Dragonstone offered the crown to Sansa, Sansa refused and defended Jon’s claim. All she did in s8 was to defend Jon’s claim to the North and the Realm.

And you know what else is incredible?

Daemon is suspected to have “caused” his first wife’ death and his second wife died in childbirth. Rhea Royce died after a fall from horseback — in the show Daemon kills her, but in the book she dies of the wounds later on, as the hit to the head might have caused her delayed death. Still Daemon is suspected to have caused it — the horse to unseat Rhea — and tried to inherit his wife’ keep.

Sansa “caused” her first betrothed, Joffrey’ death, by telling the truth to Olenna and Margaery which spurned them to have him killed at his own wedding feast. Sansa escapes and her first husband is almost killed for the crime — almost making her a widow.

Both Daemon and Sansa are more skilled than their counterpart in their competence. Daemon is the most skilled warrior of his time, Sansa has learned politics from the best and worst in it.

Daemon finds himself at odds with his brother with the war of the stepstones and Sansa finds herself at odds with her brother whilst in KL as she has to navigate and survive the southern court and Joffrey.

Yet both return to their brother in the end, Sansa by remaining true to her Stark identity (“I am not your daughter, I am the Lord Eddard and lady Catelyn’s daughter. The blood of Winterfell”/ “what if it is truth he wants and justice for his lady?”) and Daemon by winning and giving the crown to his brother.

Sansa wins the battle of bastards through her alliance with the Knights of the Vale and lets her brother take the crown.

Sansa and Daemon are both described as beautiful, charming and dashing. But Daemon is mercurial and Sansa is called a witch for her apparent part in Joffrey’ death.

Both Daemon and Sansa are advisors in their capacity to their brother/king though they have to clamor to be recognised any degree of validity. Sansa has to fight to gain the right to be Jon’s advisor even if he chooses Davos as chief advisor as Viserys chose Otto.

Daemon’s children are the one who inherit the Iron throne after the DotD. Sansa’s children will inherit WF and the North after asoiaf is done.

Jon = Rhaenyra

Jon and Rhaenyra are the odd ones out of this.

Rhaenyra knew her place, she prayed for a brother to inherit the Iron throne just like Jon would have died to defend Robb or any of his siblings (and in the book he does die for fakeArya). But both are ambitious.

Rhaenyra accepts she will be queen and makes of it her identity; Jon dreamed of become Lord of Winterfell before he knew what that entailed.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon expect that their orders — despite their intentions — will be followed, even when they go against hundreds of years of tradition. Rhaenyra as Queen and Jon believes the NW will follow to war against the Boltons when the NW has been neutral for thousand of years. And both pay the ultimate price for it. Death.

Jon is killed by his sworn brothers, Rhaenyra is killed by her brother’s dragon.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon have the temper of their family but they control it for the most part. It takes really big things for it to be spiked. Luke’s death for example.

Both Rhaenyra and Jon are intertwined with fake relationships. Both cause the death of their first lover/spouse.

Rhaenyra marries Laenor to keep the Velaryon in her corner, Laenor who is a gay man — in the book she is much less understanding of it btw — and their relationship is fake and her children aren’t his. In the show she loves him platonically, though I don’t remember that being the case in the book. In the end, whether his death is faked or not, Rhaenyra causes that. Either by having him killed — as they say in the book — or by having him fake his death to marry Daemon to strengthen her claim.

Jon has a “fake” relationship with Ygritte (you know what I think of her in the book) to make sure his undercover mission is accomplished. In the end Jon’ mission is accomplished and even though he “fell in love with her” he still left her and the war between them ended up claiming her life.

After the death of the heir — Balon and Bran and Rickon — Rhaenyra and Jon are both raised to the role of heir by their king with a decree that disinherited/snubbed the previous law-ful heir (Sansa/Daemon).

At the same time, Viserys/Robb have other heirs. Viserys marries and has sons (who have sons), Rickon and Bran are both alive though presumed dead who could end up threatening Jon’s claim once the will becomes active after Jon’ return from the dead.

They have sexual tension with the snubbed heir and value them as advisors though they don’t always agree with their politics.

Jon feels that Sansa’ opinion demeans him before the Lords — tho he names her regent — and Rhaenyra distrust Daemon not to declare war without her say-so.

And yet both Jon and Rhaenyra gain the ripe of Sansa and Daemon’ loyalty.

Even if Jon and Sansa don’t always see eye to eye, Sansa loyalty to Jon is what gets him out of KL alive, without Daemon’ skills as warrior Rhaenyra’ war would have ended long before it started.

Sansa and Daemon both are against Jon and Rhaenyra to surrender their crown, and work to keep the other half in their role.

And you know what? There’s more.

Gifts giving — belonging to a House

Daemon and Sansa both have something that defines their belonging to House Stark.

Sansa’s wolf-bit and Daemon’ sword — which, do I have to go down the sexual metaphor about Sansa’ bosom and Daemon’ sword? — and both whilst speaking of heirs/reading to war to defend the claim to the crown gift the other half something that signifies their belonging to the House as well.

Rhaenyra’ necklace and Jon’s cloak. Both items which Rhaenyra and Jon puts on and basically keeps on for ever — like it was a fucking joke how long Jon kept the cloak on even on Dragonstone —also Rhaenyra necklace resembles a chain (chain of command) and same with Jon’s cloak stripes (which resemble a chain of command).

Rhaenyra confronts Daemon about her being named heir — and perhaps we’ll have something similar in the books for Jon and Sansa. Tho we have something akin to that when Arya confronts Sansa about Jon having the crown and Sansa liking the attention.

Yet both Sansa and Daemon stand strong in their loyalty to Jon above anyone else.

Protecting — destroying some of the earliest and greatest threats the other claim

Vaemond is one of the earliest threats to Rhaenyra rule, just as we know LF has been playing against Jon all along, yet both Sansa and Daemon defend the other half by killing the offender.

Arya and Bran serve as the Viserys in the comparison, because it’s Sansa who passes the sentence (as Arya herself points out) the same way as Daemon is the one who decided to kill Vaemond instead of letting Viserys order of having his tongue removed to be carried out.

Thus removing the earliest threat to the other one’.

Also, both Daemon and Sansa destroyed indirectly or directly another threat to Jon and Rhaenyra by killing Aemond and Daenerys who had the attitude (both of them) of destroying the Realm to take the Iron throne if needed. Aemond would not have taken Aegon’ claim from him but if Aegon had died of his wounds before Rhaenyra was executed, with Maelor and Jaehaerys dead Aemond stood the greatest threat to Rhaenyra. Daemon killed Aemond and Sansa plotted to have the truth about Daenerys uncovered and indirectly causing her death through Jon.

Supporting the other as ruler

Daemon becomes Rhaenyra supporter just as Sansa becomes Jon’s. Even as snubbed heirs they love the new heir and when the time comes they are there, by their side, defending them.

Also, never forget that Sansa/Daemon are always on the side of the consort when it comes to Jon/Rhaenyra whilst that is not true for other characters, who are always afforded place of importance, but not that of the consort.

When Corlys comments on Viserys lack of action in the Stepstones Daemon replies that he can speak of his brother how he well wishes but that is not the truth for others. Similarly Sansa defends Jon (“he’s our king, he’s doing what he thinks best”) even tho she shares the lords preoccupations.

Despite not always seeing eye to eye with Daemon, he is a trusted advisor to Rhaenyra who listens to him. In the same way, despite feeling the need of Sansa’ validation, Sansa is his trusted advisor to the point Jon entrusts the whole of the North to her.

So, yeah, I raise you the Daemyra is the Targaryen version of Jonsa, with Daemon and Rhaenyra being worse people than Jon and Sansa are combined. By ey, there’s a dark streak to the Starks not to be underestimated.

#Jonsa #Jonsa agenda #Jonsa fam #Jonsa parallels #daemon and Rhaenyra as the Targaryen version of Jon and Sansa #Jonsa vs Daemyra #reverse Daemon and Rhaenyra #daemon = Sansa #Rhaenyra = Jon #I mean it’s right there #I cannot be the only one to see this #Jonxsansa #Daemyra is serving Jonsa vibes #I mean… Jon killed his “lover” for Sansa (we know D was threatening Sansa) just like Rhaenyra killed/had killed her lover to be with Daemon #I mean Daemon used his skills to keep Rhaenyra on the throne and Sansa used her skill to keep Jon alive and safe #If that ain’t peak Jonsa vibe I don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing #And if I am right then Sansa’ children should be Jon’s — like Daemon’ sons who inherited the throne were with Rhaenyra

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