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afam24 · 6 months ago

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There's probably some kernels of truth to Latino contribution with the demographics of Bronx. You had Carlos Mendez, (Charlie Chase), DJ Wiz…however FBA (Foundationaly Black American) in origins. Facts that can't be obfuscated in FBA founding on all components of hip hop (except graffiti art). This stuff is timestamped and recorded

1 Herc never said he transplanted hip hop from his homeland of Jamaica to NYC. In fact, we hear, the opposite on a 1989 recorded interview. He notes that people weren't feeling his native music at the time, so funk and soul was played…and James Brown was the main one.

2 Puerto Rican pioneers like Ken Swift, Crazy Legs, Mr Wiggles , Jo Jo, Willie Will, and Alien Ness, a PR ZuluKing, 1970s -all allude to the African American origins of the dance (more details in pt 2 replies). Legs says in like the latter 70s, they would call it Morano style whenever the moves that came from early 70s Zulu Kings was noticed (exemplified by FrostyFreeze). Morano denotes black and original in this context. He says this is the original style, tho played out by the latter 70s - very very early 80s. Puerto Rican youth added much to that.

The earliest b-boy crew people can recall by name and memory has consistantly been the Zulu Kings in interviews over time (circa 1973, probably still Black Spades or Baby Spades till 75, but they were Bronx Burning or Uprocking to minor floor moves as Spades before 1975). The b-boys back then were African American youth like Sasa, Trixie, PeeWee Dance, CharlieRock, N….Twins, Dancing Doug, Beaver, Lil Boy Keith and more. After 1976-77 the original African American youth began moving away from the dance. It was becoming "old hat", and more and more Puerto Rican youth picked up on, added to, and expanded on it. Crazy Legs said the brothas would say THAT'S PLAYED OUT when he would break in like 78-79 There's early 90s footage of Lil-Boy Keith (his 70s street name), demonstrating early ZuluKings style. He's also in the 1984 documentary Beat This, A Hip Hop History. Footage of him reminds me of KenSwift's description of old style breaking being more sporadic and lots of freezes. Also PeeWee Dance hanging with RockSteady in the early 90s..going off, Spade dancing, Bronx Burning ,uprocking…

In a 1984 episode of The Scene ( Detroit), Bronx native Kurtis Blow, famous 70s rapper and "breakdancer", was asked what came first, breaking or rap. Kurtis tells the host that back in 1972, the dance was called Burning. This is well before the modern Ytb debates. Important to mention, because only people in ZuluKings neighborhood remembers the term.

3 In a interview circa 1984, Melle Mel was asked where do you guys get names like Grand Master Flash. Long before Ytb and Internet and debates on hiphop's origins, Mel tells us…we were influenced by people like Grand Master Flowers (African American) of 60s Brooklyn. Keep in mind that Flowers opened up for James Brown in 1968 at Yankee Stadium in Bronx, NY…..perhaps the initial point it was transplanted from Brooklyn to Bronx. Melle Mel, as well as Mr Ness (Scorpio of Furious Five) was in a b-boy crew called D Squad. Fellow member Fuji of the long forgotten group said this was 1974 in middle school. There is a picture of Mel and Fuji in more recent times and Fuji in the 70s.

In a documentary about a Bronx, NY neighborhood called Simpson Street, filmed 1977 and released in 79, we hear perhaps the first publicly broadcast hip hop sound. After the narrator finishes speaking near the beginning, the next scene opens up to a roof top party with a 70s rap sound. Some people, claiming they were there that night, say that's Mr Ness and Grand Master Flash you hear in the background(?)…Melle Mel is mentioned in the list of shout-outs, so it likely was. Sounds like Coke La Rock's description of his original 1972-73 style… A list of shout-outs to people in the room and a little rhyming in between.

In the 77 doc, young blacks and Puerto Ricans hanging out together seem to get along very well like street family.

4 Coke la Rock (African American) was the first Emcee/rapper (in hiphop) and best friend of Kool Herc, going back to middle school in the 1960s . He says that it wasn't a music genre back then, but it's just the way he talked on the Mic when giving announcements…and the people loved it. This is a very important detail because specifically African American announcers and performers have always rhyme talked to beats in this manner, going back to the 30s and 40s. Back then ya might hear … "WELL AH REET, ALL ROOT, ALL RIGHT…BE AT THE JITTER BUG CONTEST TONIGHT. You have the Co Real Artist out of Los Angeles (total opposite side of country) with the 1974 song "What ya Gonna Do In The World Today". They sound like The Funky Four Plus One's 1979-81 style. Gary Byrd in the early 70s - absolutely rapping with that early 70s hip jazz/soul style. Jacko Henderson in the 50s, The Jubilees 1940s, Pig Meat Markam in the 60s.. Mind PowerJames Brown 1973, Last Poets 1971, Frankie Jaxson 1929 Jive Man Blues (absolutely rapping), Beale St Sheiks, It's a Good Thing 1927, Memphis Jug Band, with Whitewash Station Blues 1920s

I would even say songs like Don't Burn Your Candles at Both Ends by Loius Jordan , 1940s…in the movie Look Out Sister 1946, but more like rapp on the record version. Or his 40s song Beware. Even more so like rapp than singing was his song Look Out (also in the 1940s independent AA movie).

The Last Poets (latter 60s - very early 70s) with songs like Run, MEAN MACHINE - 1971 (MUST LISTEN TO THAT ONE IF YOU NEVER HEARD), True Blues, On the Subway (1970), New York New York, and others, were rapping back then with poetry and African sounding drum. Keep in mind that rapp means to talk, not neccesarily rhyming, (they often did).

Herc credits Coke for rapp in the vid "Kool Herc on the Role Coke (MC) Played".

In the 1930s soundie (musical short/music video) called Caravan, The Mills Brothers are rapping in the scene where he's talking to the young lady. Not long after that, the young man starts basically uprocking into breakdance swipes.

Jacko Henderson is in the 1981 20/20 ABC news special, covering this new thing called…HIPHOP. Jacko is very familiar with this sound as he snaps his fingers remembering a few 1950s verses.

In 1983, Gary Byrd appeared on the British show Black on Black by LWT Studios (London tv). He was asked when did he start rapping. Byrd tells the host that in 1965 he came across some tapes of Jacko Henderson from the 1950s, doing this style of announcements on radio (also done by other African American DJs across America). Byrd's songs from 1970 - 73 include Soul Traveling (very much like rapping) , If the People Only Knew, Are You Ready for Black Power…

In the latter 60s into the 70s Frankie Crocker of NYC radio was known to rhyme talk in a manor that sounds like a predecessor to hiphop music. He might say HEY BABY, IT'S GUARANTEE TO PUT A CUT IN YOUR STRUT, A GLIDE IN YOUR STRIDE, A DIP IN YOUR HIP…IF YOU AIN'T DIGGING THIS, YOU MUST HAVE A WHOLE IN YO SOUL. He also appeared in 70s movies like Five on the Black Hand Side and Darktown Strutters.

Also in Five on the Black Hand Side, the Black Panther like character that walks into the barbershop asking permission to put up a flyer for the freedom of one of his brethren, then reminds them that the police are becoming more fascist. After that, he sort of raps when he says…WOE TO THOSE WHO CAN'T SWIM JIM. Then he walks out in a

rhythmic like manner. Frankie Crocker does a little poetry as he remembers everyone street number (street lottery) in one of the barbershop scenes

KRS-1 references Coke in a 80s rap. His partner was Scott LA Rock, and they followed the trend from early 70s Coke La Rock. We also have ShaLa Rock…female rapper from the latter 70s - early 80s, and others… Rapper and 70s breakdancer T La Rock (African American…Known for the 1984 rap song It's Yours) Even a 1978 Puerto Rican based breakdance crew named Starchild La Rock.

5 Batch, a Puerto Rican guy who created TBB (The Bronx Boys) as a youth in circa 1975-76. They were a breaking crew. He tells Colon on a Livestream (no time to edit out😂)….YOU CAN SEE ON MY SCREEN IM PROUD OF MY RICAN HERITAGE WITH THE FLAG ON THE WALL, BUT THIS HIPHOP COMES FROM THE BROTHAs… Deer in the headlights look

From a firsthand perspective, Batch says on another modern Ytb vid that he was inspired by the ZuluKings or Spades, before TBB. Also Willie Will of Rockwell A., said he seen ZuluKing go to floor 1st 6 Everyone that came up in the Bronxdale projects during that time of the 60s and early 70s seem to remember DJ King Mario (Afn Am).. concurrent with Herc. In fact, a few said they knew each other, but Mario like to do outdoor block party/festival style, while Herc was more indoor venues.

7 One of the first Hispanic hip hop DJs said he seen all black people back then and sometimes wondered if he would be rejected based on his ethnic background. He found a warm welcome, because it was based on how good you were and not race. HE WAS GOOD. (in other words, even a African American youth would be booed off the stage and told to go back to his borough in a NYC accent, if they weren't good).

continued in replies …

cont… You always had R&B music artist incorporate a little Latin sound like Reasons by Earth Wind & Fire 1975…with a Cuban style, or Running on the 1977 All N All album. Also Herman Kelly with the 1978 song dance to the drummer beat.

Tito Puente of Puerto Rican background was a musician who played on certain SugarHill rap records.

Carlos Mendez not only cofounded the Cold Crush Brothers circa 1977, but also established the first know hiphop gathering or convention, circa 1979-80. At least 2 members of the Fearless 4 were of Puerto Rican background in the latter 70s- early 80s. Also a lesser known Mean Machine 1980. DJ Hollywood, African American, was known as early as 71 with his call and response style (rap). He says influencers were Frankie Crocker, Oscar Brown, Rudy Moore Pig Meat Markum, Last Poets (same as Coke La Rock)…(interview on KEXP). People that remember him first-hand are Coke La Rock, Kurtis Blow, Cholly Rock and others. More in next reply on hiphop's predecessor and the known pioneers including Herc, that remember names like John Brown, DJ Pete Jones, Grand Master Flowers ( Brooklyn 1960s - 70s)…

Better known by his stage name Pumpkin, 70s-80s HipHop drummer Errol Eduardo Bedward played on many songs of the genre. His overall appearance was of a typical African American, but was of Costa Rican and Panamanian background. He spoke fluent Spanish. Artist he played for include…(1979 to 1984), Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five Spoonie Gee, Treacherous Three, Funky Four, Grandmaster Caz, the Fearless Four, and Dr. Jeckyll & Mr. Hyde…. His 1983 single "King of the Beat", Pumpkin and the Profile All-Stars' "Here Comes the Beat" (Profile, 1984).

Jimmy Castor was African American. He was very familiar with the Latin and Caribbean sound…though rooted in soul and funk. His family was from Bermuda, as he tells us in a 2006 interview on a old website called Turntable Treat, by Sean from NJ (?…now obsolete but interview saved). Also was part of Tito Puente's band in NYC clubs. Speaking of hiphop, we know him for the 1972 song "It's Just Begun", form the Flashdance breaking scene, and used by many b-boys…

Puerto Ricans bros like Ken Swift, Crazy Legs, Mr Wiggles, Jo Jo, and even Trac 2 (when he was younger and humble😄), said they saw mostly African American youth breaking before like 75-77. Trac is in a 1978 photo with Spy (black or Afro Puerto Rican). Also Rene and Boss same year. They just won a breaking competition. Crazy legs said Spy was the first person he ever seen do this dance as a 9 year old in 76. Spy was in his early teens. In rare photos from an original RSC (Rock Steady Crew) website, Legs is in 1979-81 photos with forgotten African American members like Ski, Kippy D, Lil Craze, and their 1977 cofounder Jimmy Dee (with PuertoRican friend Lee). I say this so you can see the dance was both African American and Puerto Rican at the same time. You kind of sense that in the old photos (many youth added moves to it that became popular). Jo Jo stated that before the mid 70s it was mostly African Americans breaking and rare to see Puerto Rican youth. He mentioned from a first hand perspective, the ZuluKings in the vid…." JoJo: (Crazy Commanders/RSC) - "Rican bboys were so rare, Blacks looked at us like little…." Jo Jo (PR) and Kevski (AA) are in a modern livestream. They were in the same mid 70s Bronx b-boy crew. On a modern Livestream, Fast Breaks, African American of original Magnificent Force, says he started breaking in 1975 after seeing his cousin do "drops" at a party. He says his cousin would hang around ZuluKing members. There's a excellent performance on Livewire 1983. Magnificent Force from Bronx, NY, predate the 83 national youth craze.

Spy claims he started doing floor moves as his own creation, but does mention he came up around Black Spades (ZuluKings) in South Bronx before moving to other part of NYC as a 70s youth. Actually stating Bronx River Projects is where he started (come on, you know where he got it from). This is a problem in the testimonials of how the dance started. The tribal mentality (on both sides of the "debate") . Most center themselves in the overall story - further distorting the history. When trying to credit Puerto Ricans for the breaking, people will mention the dances of Roberto Roena 1974 (black or Afro Puerto Rican)…Tito Rodriguez at the Palladium 1950s, or the Latin dancers on Ed Sullivan, 1957. In the 74 Roberto Roena footage with Celia Cruz and All-Stars, he's doing the exact moves of Little Buck (Conrad Buckner), an African American) from two decades prior. Also in the same sequence….EVEN THE HELICOPTER LEG AND KNEE WALK. The walk around on one hand is S. Davis Jr (BoogieWoogie) and others 1940. When mentioned, it's still downplayed to make it seem absolutely Puerto Rican in origin, and the African American predecessor isn't taken serious. The moves stem from African American Jazz dances of the 1920s - 50s. A decade prior to even Little Buck, we have the Berry Brothers (spinning with acrobatics 1940s) Mills Brothers 1930s Caravan soundie (both rapping and strait up rocking into swipes), or Little Step Brothers 60s See "Ancestral roots of the Bboy Pt 1 (1920s-1940s clips)"…A MUST SEE. If we were to accept Spy's claim of being the first, what do we do about the dilemma in all the other claims and even a modern gathering of original 1st generation "B-boys" like Sasa, Trixie Dancing Doug…. Did they gather under false pretenses with fake memory of being the first (video - Original Bboy Reunion)

In a 2013 gathering celebrating hiphop, Crazy Legs introduced their 1977 African American cofounder, Jimmy Dee, to the crowd. Many never seen him because being a couple of years older (upper teens), he went off to college by time the 80s came around. In a modern Ytb livesteam interview, he says in like 78 this 12 year old, exuberant about the dance dormant in Bronx and Harlem at the time, asked him if they can start a new chapter of RSC before moving to Manhattan. We know this enthusiastic dancer as Crazy Legs

In the 1974 movie "Education of Sonny Carson", coincidently about a African American gang in New York City, the one teen that likes to dance is up-rocking into James Brown like splits (Staten Island boat scene and parade scene). It reminds me when Ken Swift describes old style breaking (before 1976/77) as looking more like FrostyFreeze style ( African American teen in Flashdance who jumps on his back. Movie was filmed in 1981 and released in 83)

In the outtakes of StyleWars, filmed in 81 and released in 83, Kippy D of old Rock Steady Crew informs us that they just incorporated Poplocking from the West coast. This componant lumped into breakin was absolutely African American. A derivative of 1969 locking, created by Don Campbell (AfricanAmerican), POPPIN was introrduced to L.A. youth by Boogaloo Sam and his brother Poppin Pete (African American) of Fresno, CA, circa 1976. So it's like it came full circle back to L.A - stemming from lockin, Popping from the roboting element..with a little pantomiming). Debuted on SoulTrain in 1978 by Jeff Danials and his crew, it soon became a popular. On 1977 Gong Show, you can see the morph from rorbiting to popping with Robitoid INC. Also, Black Resurgence, 1976. The 1978 movie Young Blood, set in L.A. California, we see the helicopter leg in the teen club scene. There was already a minute element in locking that look like breaking with leg kicks and turning around on floor. Often done by the eccentric regular of mid 70s SoulTrain…the young guy with the giant toothbrush and sometimes boxing gloves. Think his moniker was Mr X. Episodes with X absolutely breakdancing included… 1 The Undiputable Truth -You and Me, 1976 2 I Don't Want to Loose Your Love by Emotions (ST line dance), 3 The Sylvers - Hotline (SoulTrain dancers 1976), 4 Get Up and Boogie by Silver Connection (dancing episode, not in the line or band in person).

Another interesting detail in StyleWars (filmed in 81…important to emphasize that here), Frosty Freeze tells the interviewer that the dance started in Bronx as well as parts of Harlem.

Brooklyn Rock dance is not the base of up rock commonly used in breaking. You have a Puerto Rican Rock dancer of 70s saying he seen breaking in the Bronx circa 1975 and it looked nothing like what they did. It appears that rocking was feet shuffling while uprocking was more jumping and arm swinging movements. Even Brooklyn Rock Dance, with it's mysterious origin, shows more affinity to African American style than Latino (See last comment for interview with Frank papo" Rojas…latter 60 -70s PuertoRican Brooklyn Rock Dancer)

In the 1950s African American teens created their own form of Mambo. (Look up Brooklyn Mambo, 1950s). It's very close to RockDance. Even in some of the footage Spirit Moves between the 1920s -50s, similarities show up here and there. So far we can't find videos of Latin dance in this manner concurrent to that 50s era. Uprockin for breakin comes from Spade Dance (Black Spades, 60s - early 70s Bronx gang). Just like C-walking (Crip Walk 1970s), people just forgot over time the African American street culture these styles are based on. In the history of Melbourne Shuffle, no one seems to mention or allude to the fact they're C-Walking with a little 80s New Jack Swing…sped up. This is the same scenario in not recognizing Uprock being originally Spade Dance. In a 1990, hiphop doc, PeeWee Dance, an original ZuluKing member, hangs with RSC as he demonstrates the raw essence of what they did in the early 70s. He is SpadeDancing/Uprockin/BronxBurning/Going Off (video is on Ytb…YOU GET THE SENCE OF WHY THEY CALLED IT GOING OFF)

Graffiti art was born in 60s NYC and included many races of people. Black, Hispanic, Italian, and even firsthand accounts of Asian. There's no definitive evidence that it came from Philly of the 60s

God bless (see Biblical Salvation

for good old pictures and video on the history,

Look up exactly GRAND MASTER FLASH WILDSTTLE, FILMED 1981, RELEASED 1983, by AfricanAmerican . Go to his channel and tap COMMUNITY to see history of the dance and hiphop music

Also, a great ole school rap playlist on his channel. You get the idea why young folk gravitated this 70s and 80s pre gangsta form of the art (the modern form has to change theme wise…peace, love , humanity, education, community, social issues, fun, expression…)

For the predecessor to hiphop in Brooklyn, scroll to the bottom of the " Rap Before Rap" playlist on that same channel

Important videos to see

From 0:40 to 2:15, in the video CHOLLY ROCK ON THE FIRST BBOYS- by Gearheadz breakcast, Cholly informs is that even in the Burning era (Uprock), they were going to the floor. This is before the ZuluKings of 1975. He names Legendary Twins and Clark Kent as the ones who inspired him to change from just burning to floor move in 1974.

In this video, Willie Will ( Puerto Rican) of Rockwell Association tells us clearly the ZuluKings were the first to do foundational floor moves. He mentions Lil Boy Keith, Beaver and …as the ones he remembers. Rockwell Association' formed almost concurrent to TBB in 75/76. Strangely, Colon took the Livestream off of the channel, but clips were saved. The video is First cats to hit the floor with footwork/moves with names, were Zulu Kings. This is Moreno style", by HipHopHistorian

This video is important. It's a rare clip from 1981-82 of Jimmy Dee, the African American co-founder of Rock Steady Crew (1977-79). The footage could be 81 because in a modern Livestream he says that's the year he left NYC and went off to college and Navy in latter teens. When the reporter ask him where did breaking come from he responds Bronx but others say different. Even though he was a member of mid 1970s TBB, ZuluKings are mentioned as the first group. The video is called "1977 Cofounder of Rock Steady Crew, Jimmy Dee, 1981-82 (?)", by African American

From 2:43 to 3:54 in the video "BBOYS "A history of breaking" - EP03 ROCK STEADY CREW:" by RESISTANCE FILMS, Mr Freeze reveals his direct influence for the front and backwards moonwalk with the umbrella. He says it came from Lockatron John from a group called The Lockatrons. There's a modern YTb vid of Lockatrons John, a "black" man ( perhaps African American) revealing that he was dancing like that since the 70s. Also a drummer, Military, and Corporate guy (from Internet article). You can see him in the video "Exclusive Interview with Lockatron NYC Booghie , Locker and Drummer" by Tiny1Love

All the clips you need on the African American predecessor or founding of hip-hop (including quotes by Herc) is in the video "PROOF That Dj Cool Herc & Big Pun Says That FBA Started Hip-Hop", by WATERGOD TV

Other full interviews are in the playlist of African American channel mentioned above

Up Rock did not come from Brooklyn Rock Dance. It was Spade dance ( black spades), Bronx Burning - as Kurtis Blow tells us in 1984 on Detroit's The Scene show… long before this modern debate..

From Frank Rojas, Puerto Rican Brooklyn Rock Dancer from the 60s and 70s. This is the pioneer who said he seen breaking as a young guy in 1975 Bronx, and he and his friends didn't see it as what they did in Brooklyn…or even perceive it as dancing . Note From 3:20 -3:58, we hear him clearly distinguish the dances he did culturally as a Puerto Rican at home, vs what the African Americans were doing down the block. He gravitated the dances of the brothers more as a starting point in Brooklyn Rock Dancing vs his traditional dance innate in him. (the main point are capitalized and allude to the African American origins of even the Brooklyn Rock Dance)

From a transcript of video interview

"…it was it was a uh the beauty of it was that it was a black and puerto rican community