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pseudoneiiric · 5 years ago

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meta post: lili and her gender

let me go on the record to say that i fucking love lilian eyler with my whole heart, like, i typed all this out and im so fucking emotional about her! in the past, i've written things about hello charlotte and how the lgbt representation is... lacking, let's call it, and i've also made a few headcanon posts here and there about lilian's transition and her relationship with gender. so i thought, you know, let's actually write a whole ass thing about it. so here it is.

content warnings: gender dysphoria, suicide attempts, homophobia/transphobia in the original source material

PART 1: ETHERANE'S BAD TAKES so... etherane did not handle lgbt stuff well, like, in the slightest. lili is canonically genderfluid, as seen in one of those little profile things that etherane drew that doesn't actually show up in any of the games. but her genderfluid identity isn't handled well at all in the actual source material. actually, in general, hello charlotte is pretty transphobic. to cite one example, there’s this journal entry in hello charlotte 3 talking about “defective” charlotte vessels, and one of the things that can make a charlotte vessel “defective” is for them to be born amab or intersex. this already has some really bad vibes, but then we remember also that one of the big functions of charlottes is apparently for them to be sexualized (yikes!!!!!) and so we also get this weird kind of like, “trans people aren’t hot” kind of take?

but anyway. when it comes to lilian specifically, she never actually states in canon that she’s genderfluid or otherwise trans, not even in the spinoff visual novel, which, by the way, would have been the perfect place to address her gender identity, and she consistently uses he/him pronouns. we don’t actually get to see any of her thought processes about her gender at all — like at this point, i can’t even say it’s a non-issue because that would imply that they even mentioned her gender in canon. the only time we can potentially extrapolate from canon that lili might not be cis is when anri mentions that charlotte is lili’s self-insert oc. that’s kind of heavy-handed with the whole “charlotte being the female name for charles”, but that’s another matter. the point is, with the lack of any canon basis that lilian’s even vaguely questioned her gender, the reveal that she’s actually genderfluid with like, two pieces of artwork that are detached from the actual game feels very pxrfxrmxtxvxly xnclxsxvx (performatively inclusive) especially considering how.... etherane talked about lilian’s gender in particular within the actual canon material.

after all, the story behind lilian is effectively that, after she was born, her mother was forced to abort her second child, a daughter that she would name scarlett. doing so plunged her into a really deep depression that eventually took on delusional qualities. so ever since lilian was about three years old, her mother has been referring to her exclusively as scarlett, asking her to ‘ be a good girl ’ and similarly raising her as a girl. we can see here that etherane seems to have implied that genderfluidity is something that happens because other people make it so, and isn’t an identity and lived experience. (bad take!) although, albeit unintentionally, i think etherane did lay some groundwork to talk about lilian’s relationship with her gender, specifically with regards to her projection onto her oc, charlotte. in high school, when she’s more active on the internet, we see that she’s going by charlotte and using she/her pronouns. anri, her irl friend, is pretty openly critical of that, but she sort of brushes off anri’s complaints and continues to present as feminine online. now, there’s this fanfic writer who goes by the pseudonym “c”, and lilian very quickly takes an interest in him. the way she talks to c, who doesn’t know her irl, compared anri, who does, is just like flat-out like they’re completely different people.

compare, her with c:

to her with anri:

i also wanted to mention that lili does occasionally act more “femininely” with anri, but it’s never to the extent that she does with c, and in general, affectionate banter is sort of... outright ridiculed in their friendship both ways. see this one exchange:

anri: >:) always up for some roasting lili: right? <3 <3 anri: now you’re the one being gross

unrelated but it fucking kills me that anri was like “ily <3” and lili went “gross” so she went “kys” and lili deadass goes “that’s better” like that’s what anri is referencing when she says “now you’re the one being gross” and im like... please just be healthy friends who don’t wish death on each other???

it’s also worth noting that c doesn’t know that she’s not “actually” a girl, and literally when they meet, she goes like, “it’s you who should be disappointed in me. charlotte turned out to be charles, whoops! i bet you were hoping that i’d be a cute girl.” and that’s... really depressing, like, she ended up really leaning into that cutesy side of her when she was talking to c and now she feels the need to be a lot more... sarcastic and bitter, like how she is with anri, because now c “knows the truth about her”, that she’s “actually been a guy all along”.

in any case, i think the intent that etherane was going for with this was kind of like... “lilian’s actually a repressed cis gay man!” which is . not great. it gives off this really gross vibes where it’s implied that since lili was raised as a girl and is into men, she got “confused” and started going by she/her online because she couldn’t come to terms with her sexuality or whatever. and that’s just such a bad take!!!

not to mention that a really important part of lili’s backstory is... her germaphobia. she has persistent delusions accompanied by visual hallucinations where she sees people as “parasites”, which visually manifests as them rotting or decomposing. because of that, she wears gloves all the time and is repulsed by physical touch. but when she meets c (whose real name is vincent) in person, she pretty much instantly goes for skin-to-skin contact with him, where she takes off her glove and holds his hand. and like, sure, that’s sweet, but that’s really not how mental illness... works. in the slightest. she doesn’t react at all when his hand touches hers, despite the fact that she has literally had panic attacks in canon from touching things without her gloves. and it gives off this implication that mental illness can be cured with romance somehow, and that’s a really bad take!

this feeds into fandom understanding that like, well, if lilian sees vincent as pure and allows him to touch her, then Obviously she’d let him kiss her, they could probably have sex, etc. and like... she’s canonically asexual though! and that brings us to the other implication, that asexuality is somehow... caused by something. like, there’s nothing in canon to state that lilian experiences sexual attraction (or even really romantic attraction, like i know etherane went off in heaven’s gate and did a lot of ship tease, but she never really outright says she’s crushing on anyone), but judging from the way etherane handled lilian’s gender identity, i have a sneaking suspicion that she established lilian’s asexuality with her mental illnesses specifically in mind. lilian’s autistic, germaphobic, has severe ocd, and she’s been sexually assaulted in the past. therefore, she must be asexual! that’s the sort of vibes i get from the game, and im not here for it. similarly to how her genderfluidity was handled, she makes no actual statement in canon that she doesn’t experience sexual attraction. the closest she’s ever come to this is when she says to anri in heaven’s gate that she is just straight up not interested in kissing (to which anri is like, “well what if it were vincent owo??” which. ugh. anyway). it just seems really strange to me to design a character with severe mental health issues with regards to physical touch and then just sort of treat it as a given that she’s asexual. it’s another example of etherane implying that lgbt identities are results of traumatic experiences or symptoms of mental illness and not an identity or lived experience. you can be sex-repulsed and not be asexual, and while i understand that many people do identify as ace due to trauma and other such things, it still feels like really bad rep when taken with the way lilian’s genderfluidity was portrayed.

PART 2: HOW “CHARLES” IS DIFFERENT FROM “LILIAN”

throughout hello charlotte, lilian identifies herself as a passive observer, someone who doesn’t directly interfere in events. this applies mostly to her existence in false realm, where she’s like... a god, and doesn’t want to interfere in the balance of the world. but i believe she also has always seen herself as an observer. in her very first scene, the one where she and anri are watching someone get bullied, she’s the one who tells anri that there’s no point in getting help. because her role is just to observe. to take pictures for anri, to be a good girl, to say yes to everything and to never express her opinions, feelings, thoughts.

and honestly, i think the main reason for that is that she’s dysphoric. whenever she talks about herself, she’s really self-deprecating, especially compared to when she talks about charlotte. i feel like the main reason why lilian detaches herself from the world and refuses to really perceive herself is because she’s fundamentally disgusted with her gender presentation. and like, we can see in the two times that she’s presented femininely (with c and in that one comic) that lili is just so much happier and more bubbly when she’s presenting as feminine. you can literally see her stop dissociating and becoming more present in the moment because she’s just. so much more comfortable in her skin. compare:

these pictures with this one:

it’s funny i was going to say that there is a picture where she’s presenting as masculine and actually smiles like a person, but guess what! she’s texting c! so she’s actually performing femininity!

but the point is, like... when she’s presenting as masculine, especially in the canon pictures rather than etherane’s art, she just doesn’t look... happy. and then we compare that to how much more present she seems when she’s presenting as feminine, and how much more comfortable she seems in being, like, happy! and cute! but there is a downside to this. and that is...

PART 3: DIFFICULTIES IN LILI’S TRANSITION

in my sort of... “main verse” for lili, i have it so that her suicide attempt failed and that she was somehow... saved from drowning. mother passes away and she starts to... soul search a little bit and find a reason to live, and somewhere along the line she starts to transition socially. that means she starts transitioning at a pretty... extremely vulnerable point in her life. in the year between 18-19 years old, she’d be a wreck. she’s growing her hair out, but she feels insecure about it. she starts to wear skirts, but only at home. she buys makeup and never wears it. it’s a long process for her, because it’s one thing to go by she/her online or to claim she’s just a gender-confused gay boy and a completely different thing to come out as a trans woman and to actually see herself as a woman and not some kind of imposter. considering that she was raised as a girl, she would have a large amount of guilt over transitioning, feeling like she’s going to be seen as confused, or that her gender identity is a direct result of her childhood trauma. but she’s not just worried that others will see her that way: she’s worried that she’s going to see herself that way.

and for a long time, she probably does see herself that way. for a long time, scarlett would probably treat her transition as some kind of attempt to personify her unborn sister and comply with perceived expectations rather than an attempt to feel comfortable in her own skin. she’d get nervous that she’s somehow becoming scarlett, because though she’s always thought it would be easier if she’d just been her sister, she’s never really wanted to be scarlett. she’d be scared to wear mid-length skirts, scared to put her hair up in a bun, probably even scared to wear red for a time, all because she’s scared of somehow losing herself and becoming her alter.

because of her caution and concern with identifying as a trans woman and not as the “safer“ gender identity of genderfluidity (where she can say she’s trans but never actually have to “push boundaries” by wearing feminine clothing or using any pronouns besides he/him), it would likely take her a very long time to take the step to medically transition. she’d likely never get any gender affirmation surgeries just because of how invasive the procedure is, but hormones would probably be something she’d look into once she’s much older and has a more stable income.

i mentioned before that before her transition, she uses dissociation and observation as a way to cope with her gender dysphoria. she saw herself as someone who didn’t really participate in the world, was a class ghost, invisible to everyone and a minuscule part of a vast universe. but upon transitioning, she’d feel much more actively self-conscious. once she starts to present in a feminine way, she’d feel like she’s being seen, like she’s actually participating in the world, and that’s both a blessing and a curse.

she’d be much more prone to stammering, especially when saying her name, and would blush far more often. she’d be afraid of saying the wrong thing or messing up somehow. and on top of that, she’d likely feel predatory for talking to others, always wondering if others find her cute or repulsive, always wondering if someone will perceive her and harm her in some way.

she’d very likely also feel really guilty about her own emotional experience. because she’s so used to being a passive observer, a puppet that only does what others want, she would feel like it’s selfish to be just... content. she’s so actively disgusted with herself before she transitions that she’s never allowed herself to be mentally present for a happy moment in her entire life. she always second-guesses, always dismisses positive things as a mere coincidence, and after she transitions, when she starts being more present in her life, she’d feel so guilty for just allowing herself to be happy.

because of that, she has some trouble with presenting as feminine consistently — she’d vary the “level” of her feminine presentation from day-to-day, where she might go full femme one day and another day stick with a beanie and a pair of slacks. she’s much more comfortable with presenting as more traditionally feminine when she’s at home or with trusted friends in a private space, but around 19 years old, she makes a vested effort to remain in public spaces. she’d time herself, saying, “for one hour, i’ll stay in this café while wearing a skirt, and then i can leave,” and she’d gradually increase the amount of time she spends in public spaces. and eventually, eventually she does end up feeling really comfortable with her gender presentation and falls into a more static sense of style. she really likes clothing design, so she ends up wearing a lot more dynamic outfits when she’s more comfortable with herself, and she probably also mildly gets into cosplay.

i also like to think that she reconnects with anri during her young adult years. either it’s like, right after her suicide attempt (i’ve written before that she’d had anri listed as her emergency contact and forgot to change it when she moved), or it’s at some point after she starts transitioning socially. i think it’d be really sweet for them to be friends in a more real way, and the sheer concept of anri teaching lili how to properly apply makeup and to set her hair is just so fucking sweet i might die. they both deserve to have friends so i think this is just a step up from hello charlotte canon.

#long post //#lilian eyler: study.#ive been working on this post for days. im fuckign emotional about her

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comicteaparty · 5 years ago

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June 6th-June 12th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from June 6th, 2020 to June 12th, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

How do you personally decide to kill-off a character, and how do you handle it?

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I never kill a char for shock or to motivate other characters (hate, hate, HATE those tropes); but if that character's decisions result in their death, so be it. But I always double check if decisions with huge results like death make sense for that character, to avoid the "ideot ball" problem.

Mind you, I only have three character's whose death would break the story, all others are fair game.

Miranda

I have yet to kill a character. But I do have a death planned...and right now the reasoning is to show how far a character has come from being a self-preservationist ass. If I maintain that route it won’t be done lightly and the person who does it will feel the weight of their decision.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Any deaths in my current work happened before the story started, and... that changed nothing. They’re still characters in the story I don’t know if I could actually KILL-kill a character without knowing that their death is an important stepping-stone to the plot’s conclusion. But even then, the character can feel more like a device than a person. Maybe for a future work, I can do it... but... for this one... I’m actually banking on things worse than death

copperine (Lady Changeling)

I have a main character death planned. It's not quite the same as most deaths but explaining further would be spoilers.

That is... not a helpful contribution, but oh well.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

It's such a battle of 'do or do not' at times with these things! You want that death to make an impact for the story, however it may lend to the narrative, and that makes planning just when and where so difficult!. When we first started writing GJS, we had SO MANY planned deaths! That was the first draft, which when we read it later as we approached those parts, made us realise that these character kill offs didnt really affect the story in a way readers would care for. (in fact, it was a chapter before that we decided to save an important one!) We later calmed down our edgy-ness, and had any such sort of death fit more cohesive with the tone of the story-- and I think that is a big part!

mariah (rainy day dreams)

I've had kind of a similar character death journey with my story. There were a lot more for more shallow reasons when I was starting out. I think that probably is also a symptom of writting most of those deaths as an edgy teenager :p But over time I've cut a lot of them or rewritten them, in the case of backstory deaths, so that they're more nuanced. Even the like three I have planned to happen as plot points may end up being changed by the time I get to actually scripting it. Honestly, if I was writing a new story I'm not sure how I would approach having death involved or if I would. Death is a really defining experience. For the backstory deaths in RDD they're included because they define some aspect of the characters they effect. Sometimes it's movtivation (though not the I Must Avenge! kind) and sometimes it's just how they view the world. I think that's the way I would continue to use death as a device, though there are all kinds of other experiences that can create the same outcome. Death isn't always the most interesting device to use for creating depth or raising the stakes.

carcarchu

In PP the eliminations are kind of the equivalent of dying. Most of them don't have a lot of emotional weight but i'm really dreading having to eliminate the more important supporting characters later. i feel like the author of Princess when she wrote in her author's notes that she couldn't stop crying when she had to kill off her main character and had to draw through the tears, that's me but like 100 chapters from now

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I wholeheartedly agree, Mariah. I think as we grow, we find out ways to problem solve without being so absolute about our decisions in a sense

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

I have killed off characters in my story; heck, their deaths are part of of the whole problem! I chose to kill them off because they’re not just one off characters; their deaths have a major impact on my protagonist’s character development. If they have to die, then they shouldn’t be dismissed at all. Rather, it has long lasting effects of trauma and that’s something the protagonist has to move on from.

carcarchu

Oh and also in my second story which i have not drawn yet the main character dies in the first chapter but she comes back to life after winning a bet with a demon and that whole thing is an extremely important plot point that ties the entire series together

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Like @LadyLazuli (Phantomarine), most of my character deaths happened before the story even begun. Most of them were incredibly important to one character or more. Although... Since the story of Whispers of the Past is told largely through flashback, it feels like these deaths just happened. And when I wrote the prequel stories to my comic, I battled myself over a certain death that I didn't want to happen. I realized very quickly that I don't make the rules.

eliushi [a winged tale]

My kill test is: if the character dies, what sorts of impact would it have on other characters? The narrative? Readers? Could it be misinterpreted as a message I wouldn’t want to send as an author? And what happens if the character survives? I do have planned character deaths as I don’t want my characters to have plot armour. I approach this by designing the deaths/narrative and events leading up to it important and impactful. Hopefully I’ll stick the landing.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(omg Kill Test Eli)

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

That’s a really good test to use, Eli. It’s good to understand what a character’s impact is on the whole story if they die. Deaths are pretty traumatic, so it would also work to see how other characters react to it.

mariah (rainy day dreams)

The "what happens if the character survives" is the big one I always consider it's the one that has saved a lot of characters because the answer has been more interesting for me to write than the death was XD(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

That's fascinating to think about... Holy hell, if one particular character didn't die, it would be an entirely different story!

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Sometimes the survival of a character has even more impact than the death. Unless they come back as a ghost, which in this case, they can still actively influence the story as opposed to being inactive

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

generally when i'm writing character arcs, i start from the end and work backwards. so if at some point in an arc i get to something like "this character needs to experience death for their growth" i'll put a character earlier in their story to get killed off. or if the character arc ended with the character's death, i'll make sure to build up to it throughout. i guess my style of writing is kinda different to some others'? in the sense that i don't go "ok here are my OCs, let's see what happens to them" - rather, i go "here's what happened to my OCs, let's see how they got there". though, that does kinda result in me tipping my hand a bit, lol. like if a character gets killed by one of the protagonists, i'll generally make the killed character a big jerk. if the character is killed by an antagonist to spur on the protagonists, i'll generally make the killed character really likeable.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I also consider when you want to kill a character during an arc. An incomplete arc is more heartbreaking than one that is complete before the end

That’s totally fair snuffysam. It’s all about the perspective

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

ohh that is an interesting way to write Snuffy-- that would definitely produce interesting results and a cool way to tackle character development

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

It is a good way of thinking and also introduces a lot of possibilities. Because what if the character killed by the protagonists had legitimate grief/beef? Or that the story hints at their backstory a bit more and show them to be more human? It can set up some good questions about the moral grey area.

I like to believe that each character thinks they are their own protagonist of the story....whether it be heroic, anti heroic, villainous or in between.

eliushi [a winged tale]

It’s also interesting to think about death as a concept. If your story deals with an after death story vs death as an absolute vs reincarnation one

Death itself can mean different things to individual characters

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Death of a friend, death of a loved one....death of a personality.

Or even growing up can be seen as one, since it’s death of your childhood.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Because what if the character killed by the protagonists had legitimate grief/beef? Or that the story hints at their backstory a bit more and show them to be more human? It can set up some good questions about the moral grey area.

Yeah, exactly. Like, I have a character who is currently stricken with guilt over a guy he killed. And, like, the killed guy in question was a huge jerk as mentioned, but, like... he had a family. So it's a lot of figuring out what one could do to make up for that sort of thing.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Exactly. Even if they were portrayed as jerks (or actually are jerks, like in the case of your story)...they're still people and have their own stories to tell, too.

Imagine the stories you lose out when you completely demonize or put someone on a pedestal.....not seeing them as human at all.

eliushi [a winged tale]

I definitely prefer round rather than flat characters and even if it’s one who’s only seen once in the story, I like to add some contrasting characteristics to hint at their “person” even though their roles are small. It’s the little things that will be most impactful especially when they die

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

especially when they die oh my god Eli your bloodthirst is showing

eliushi [a winged tale]

I there’s a place for characters who are designed to pass for the sake of the story’s theme/character impact/setting danger

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

hmmm there is. And the trope is called Stuffed in the Fridge, when that character is specifically slated to die for the sake of story progression, like you said.(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

Stuffed into the Fridge: A character is killed off in a particularly gruesome manner and left to be found just to offend or insult someone, or to cause someone serious anguish.

I think there’s a fine line between the intentions for sure

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

Absolutely. Depending on how you write it, you can pull if off very, very well.

Oh! I think I meant to say the lost lenore

Usually people who have died and who end up driving the characters' motivations, my bad

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

yeah there are times that killing off a character for another character's progression can be done well like the first 15 minutes of Up are considered some of the best scenes in pixar history and that's totally lost lenore

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

It all depends if the character actually was a character with their own hopes or dreams or just a thing to be smashed to make someone sad.

Did the character who died have agency? Did they have their own hopes and dreams?

Thing is, I personally only care for character‘s death if I also cared about their lifes.

It‘s hard to explain, but so many lifes only seem to matter in stories because they matter for someone more valuable; and there‘s a definite pattern which character gets to be valuable on their own and which one is only cared about because it impacts someone deemed more worthy.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Gurren Lagann is still my benchmark for a meaningful, impactful, heart-wrenching character death - one that propels the story forward (eventually) but also brings it to a screeching halt long enough to really delve into the emotions behind it. It's a death that doesn't feel necessary at first, but you look back and see the doors it opened to deeper conflicts.

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

Ohhh, character death!! I'm gonna second a lot of opinions here about death having to be relevant and affecting other characters; and I sure wanna bring the point home that even in war, violence has meaning and life and death have meaning too. Deaths of characters happen mostly for plot reasons: they happen so I can show things (about them or about the others around them). I like to think in terms of what characters represent and the way a character dies says a lot about what you personally think about the things they represent. So I have characters that from moment one I could say "Oh no this guy's gotta die and he's gonna have to die a LOT". Also gonna go there and say that yeah sure I am guilty of the killing for motivating other characters, but also to put the plot in motion. Others, I hope, also tell us something about the characters involved in their deaths...(edited)

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

(YESS CLAIRE!!! I always say the Kamina Death when we talk about that possibility in stories XD it was such a good impact)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I know people bring it up SO MUCH (along with one in Madoka... which was equally shocking!) but there's a reason they do!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

hhh yesssss Madoka too!

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

those deaths are brought up for very good reasons, they are huge marking points in both narratives

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

Madoka and the deaths in it always felt shallow to me. I facepalmed and went „of course“ on the first one. I knew it would happen from the moment the happy music started.

eliushi [a winged tale]

Deaths are just another plot device. Just have to make them count... or not... depending on what you want to do as the author! Imagine all the control... But to make a death impactful, that’s a harder question. For your wips, I’m curious what are your go to tips? Great points about agency, multifaceted, relationships with other characters.

shadowhood (SunnyxRain)

.........Write them as a character first before their relationships with others. Or if you do write their relationships first...brainstorm why they interact with others the way they do. Did something in their life influence it?

And...never stop asking questions about your characters. Fire away them yourself or have a friend ask you constantly. Thinking fast sometimes helps you get an eureka! moment about your characters and reach a deep part you might not have realized it at first.

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

I started the story knowing I was gonna have to kill a character in the next one or two chapters and I wanted it to matter; if I had started the story killing him right away, it would look too much like a cheap, shock-value death, and its impact on the other characters could possibly look like an overreaction. So I had to make sure that character would have a lot of interactions with others that would show at least the points of his personality that I cared for the most.(edited)

It felt like running against the clock and everytime he was on the spotlight I was just "oh no I gotta make this count, I gotta make him matter" and I hope I could make it look like he mattered to the people around him(edited)

eliushi [a winged tale]

I really like that shizamura! Making the scene and character portrayal count as we slowly move towards their demise

I’m also curious when people realize a death flag for a character. I try not to hint at the death until it happens but I’m sure there are some things that clue the readers in

Shizamura 🌟 O Sarilho

I tried using red flags by making other characters sound like they'd be the ones to die to draw attention from my target, tho I don't know to which extent that work

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think anyone actually disagrees with me, but just bringing up a counter-point: character death does not have to be surprising to be impactful!

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

agreed!

DanitheCarutor

Depends on the story, I have a couple where characters die. One is a fantasy/sci-fi/war story where death just happens, it has a mix of the overall horror of war and the desensitization to it all, but there is also a scene where it has personal significance in a good and bad way. (Super vague, I know.) I also have a cosmic horror/fantasy comic where characters die, but they don't officially go until their souls are gone, so "death" doesn't have much importance but the devourment of souls and fading away of old souls has a sobering importance, with the former having an almost taboo feeling. I will admit to really enjoying low-blow gallows humor, as a mean joke I was actually considering making a fake ending in my current comic where an important character dies, making the other have to reflect on everything alone, and it would have dropped the story into full blown Tragedy territory. Doing this solely to see how my readers would react, but that would be too mean, and I don't have the energy or time for something like that. Although in all seriousness, as desensitized as I am to death and gore, I personally try to handle death as respectfully as possible. It's a big deal, and I don't like the use of it as a cheap story device.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Death... Hm. I have very few stories in which I actually kill off Characters. For me, personally, the Characters kind of live in my head, and if I know I am going to kill them they are sort of "branded" in a sense in a way that taints them for me even while I'm working with them when they're alive. It's hard to explain, but I look at those Characters differently and it's always in the context of making the death as powerful as I can, rather than the kinds of things I enjoy working on more. So, I very rarely decide to kill Characters. I can find more uses for them when they're alive! The only time I will do it is if it's a short story, and the death is an intrinsic part of the tale, or in longer stories if it is something to establish stakes (if I want the stakes to be death, sometimes I don't!) Other than that, I really try to write around deaths, cause sometimes Character deaths feel like "and now we don't have to deal with writing them anymore!" Rather than being something very potent. I've not yet had a character die outside of story outlines and plans. So I'm not sure I can say how I approach it, yet.

Tantz Aerine (Without Moonlight)

Every character that dies in my stories hurts. Some more than others for sure, but they all hurt me I don't know if it makes sense but I try to save them. It's just that their personalities and choices tie my hands. If I can save them in a way that would be plausible for the story setting, I do. I like happy endings. Usually, the deaths in my stories leave gaping holes. In the style of 'things would have gone much better if so-and-so hadn't died.' And if I kill, I kill permanently. No fake outs.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I rarely think about character deaths very often, myself. I know, weird, right, considering I have a murder mystery in my own comic? However, the victim, Count Bailey, was a death I was ready for and planned very carefully around. In the brief time we saw him alive, he was likeable and fair, to get readers wanting justice for his murder. He was also passionate in his beliefs, and this last bit allowed me to hit the ground running with possible motivations for the killer(s?). As time goes on, I also plan to reveal more about him as well. So, even though he's dead, he's still very much an active character. Retroactive? But, yeah, I suppose that's a bit of a different take from others, considering the genre. In general, I'm not a fan of killing off characters, unless it drives the story, and I would be hard-pressed to do it especially to a character my readers have bonded with. That feels cruel to me, and I wouldn't want to do that to other people.

I want to make clear that I'm definitely not judging others for doing that! It's just not the kind of writing I could do myself.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Yeah that's exactly my thinking too. Like sometimes a character (or multiple) needs to die to move the story forward, but I can't imagine writing something Game of Thrones-like where every week you tune in to see who's gonna die. Like, I just can't imagine writing character arcs in that sort of environment, unless I was writing some experimental story about characters dealing with their own mortality in different ways. Like a more philosophical Final Destination. Not to knock anyone who does, but I just can't write like that.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This might be splitting hairs or something, but I feel like while I am not at all against "character deaths," I don't like to "kill off characters." Probably an approach/mindset difference (and different approaches are all valid!) rather than a difference in the results.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It's kinda the same for me. Because I don't really "kill off characters," they just... die, and I'm basically just a witness.

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

I killed my protagonist in the first chapter

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Well, I mean, with a title like Hans Vogel is Dead...

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

but also there's a difference between killing a character and necessarily removing them from the narrative altogether: I used to be SUPER into killing ALL THE CHARACTERS!11! when I was younger and have since moved away from it (a lot in part because of how turned off I was from GoT) and have been trying other ways of getting rid of characters

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Honestly, why can't more characters leave because they left on a journey or something?

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

yeah!

or like, opened a bookstore or something

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah!

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

or if they're bad there's a lot worse things (dramatic music)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

ooof

I mean

I don't know if I'd like to see anything too gruesome, even for villains

(Doesn't help that my villain is my favorite)

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

oh no, I'm a baby lmao I can't do gore and that kinda stuff :''"D

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I mean, or mental torture

nah thanks

I'd rather just let 'em die at that rate

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

I'm a big fan of The Good Place theory of letting them punish themselves

there's a lot of options out there for sure

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

^^^

eliushi [a winged tale]

I’d like to think a character killed on screen give some sort of impact and meaning to other characters and the readers, that can’t be achieved in other ways (leaving for a journey, survived but different, losing memory etc).

sierrabravo (Hans Vogel is Dead)

that's definitely true! it depends on what you want the reader to get out of the character being taken out of the narrative

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I haven't committed to killing off any characters yet and I'm not sure how I'm going to go about it when I do. Only one character has really died so far (Joe) and that was just the premise for the whole thing so it wasn't a difficult decision. I don't know whether I'm going to kill other characters at this point

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

If I need to get rid of a character, my favourite way is to give them exactly what they want. Since I write adventure stories, that usually leads to their retirement - or with them having to deal with the consequences of the fullfillment, which means they are interesting to write and read about again.

AntiBunny

It really varies depending on what the story calls for, and the character arc. In the case of Nailbat http://nailbat.AntiBunny.net/ the main character's death was already a foregone conclusion from the very beginning. It was the premise of the entire story. Everything built up to that moment.

A character just died in http://AntiBunny.net/ as well. In this case it was more to make a statement. There wasn't a place for this villain's story to go other than prison or death, and I chose to kill him off because he lived inflicting violence on others, and his last moment is one of shock that he'd meet his end at that very same violence. It's a human moment for an otherwise monstrous character as he reaches out, perhaps asking for help, but it's too late.