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mistoffeleesisawitch · 6 months ago

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I know the Wizard of Oz is in public domain, I mentioned that in the reply, just that Wicked is also connected to a copyrighted work. And not just due to Elphaba’s green skin, though that in itself is such a core part of Elphaba it’s not like it’s simply an aesthetic similarity. But Maguire himself pretty much always specifically cited the Wizard of Oz movie and Margaret Hamilton’s Witch for his inspiration for Wicked

From:

And a different interview focused on his want to explore the nature of evil:

youtube

And it isn’t just Elphaba’s green skin. A lot of core details of Wicked that shape the characters are rooted in the 1939 movie. The Wicked Witches of West and East are not related in The Wonderful Wizard of Oz and are only mentioned together due to both being Wicked Witches. The final act of Wicked (the book), as well as the prologue, involves Elphaba hunting down Dorothy, something she only does in the movie. The book witch only starts targeting Dorothy after Dorothy is already on her way to kill her. Even the core of Glinda’s character, being a small town impoverished patrician from Gilikin desperate to rise socially, is based on her being the Good Witch of the North, which she isn’t in the Oz books.

He’s able to avoid a lot of these copyright things because some of them just aren’t copyrighted or can’t be copyrighted. (Glinda’s change in location and the Witch hunting down Dorothy. With those being either a book original title for a nameless character or too vague to copyright). Other adaptions have used the green skin but use a different (usually worse in the Disney ones) shade to step around the copyright on the specific color used.

That’s not to deny that there is a lot from the Oz books focused on. Boq after all is book only, appearing in the 3rd chapter of the first book. And Maguire’s version of Oz is very much based on Baum’s Oz and like Baum’s personal views. That if Baum wants Oz the be an “American Fairytale” than Maguire works to actually bring in American values of the time into Oz and look into how that effects our own view of Oz. Unionism is very unsubtly American evangelism. The industrialization of Oz is meant to mirror America’s. And of course the racism, with the Vinkus being heavily based on indigenous tribes likely also inspired to Baum’s own notable racism towards Native Americans, and colonialism that is seeped into the original Oz books.

I want to clarify I’m NOT disagreeing with you! I don’t think Wicked is fanfiction and to call it that I think ignores the point of what wicked was trying to accomplish. Maguire himself even says the fact that it ended up being about the Wizard of Oz is kind of incidental, with it mostly being a vehicle for him to explore the nature of evil. But it very much is connected to a copyrighted material and I just think it’s interesting how Wicked is able to weave in both and deconstruct both.

Maguire isn’t deconstructing Baum’s Wicked Witch of the West, he’s deconstructing Margaret Hamilton’s. And he uses Baum’s books to do this. And that’s just really cool to me!

Sigh. I'm tired of this claim.

Is the logic behind it that it's written by somebody who isn't the creator and/or not commissioned by them? Or is this about the quality of the writing?

No. Maguire's books are not fanfiction; they're original fiction using public domain settings and characters.

There is a long history of this practice, stretching from Homer to the Modernists, who'd often write "modern" versions of ancient myths.

A difference between what Maguire does and the type of writing we call fanfiction is that the latter is written by non-professionals, that is fans.

The audience for fanfiction is other fans. The audience for what Maguire does is a literary or general audience, rather than just fans.

Also, the former fundamentally differs in purpose. Maguire's series looks to subvert and extend the meanings of Baum's original fiction. What we call fanfiction often exists to exhaust what-if scenarios, romantic wish-fulfilling fantasies of dubious probability, and so on. It tends to have less to say--so to speak.

I think it's wiser to put "Wicked" in continuity with works like the "Aeneid" or "Orpheus Descending" by Tennessee Williams or "Wide Sargasso Sea" by Jean Rhys, which have very little resemblance in their aim and construction to the writing that gives us the term "fanfiction."

You do not really gain much by establishing that something is something else. It is more productive to focus on what a literary work does and whether or not it does it well.

There are people who call "Wicked" fanfiction to insult it and others who do so to convince themselves that their A/B/O Steve/Bucky on AO3 is on par with "Paradise Lost." Both groups are wrong.

If you (dis)like Maguire's "Wicked" as a book, then putting it in one category or another doesn't matter all that much. What matters is why you (dis)like it.

Last but not least, the elephant in the room is copyright, which is a pretty new concept.

"50 Shades" started off as erotic "Twilight" fanfiction, sure, but could not be published until E. L. James changed so many factors so as to make it legally unrecognizable to the source material.

Another example: all of the Marvel films/tv series/sequels/prequels are canon regardless of who writes them--even when the characters significantly change and the timelines diverge. However, anyone who writes a Loki story but is not employed by Disney, is a fanfiction author.

Every time there's a discussion about whether something is fanfiction or not, it is clear that people need to look up two words: "remake" and "intertextuality."

Again, fanfiction is fun, but this is untrue. It only shows that you don't read books or that you need to ask a librarian for better books.

#I’m not trying to disagree with you on the main point #and I really hope I don’t come off like I am I was just trying to add a little extra detail I thought was interesting originally #because I’m so passionate about Oz and its relationship to American culture #I just wanted to point out that it does have a relationship to copyright #one that has specifically haunted the musical and movie in their adaptation of the novel #because he wants to analyze the world of Oz as people know it #and that requires a relationship with the movie that is seared into American culture #Oz stuff

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findafight · 4 months ago

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Thinking about Dorothy, twelve and scared and wanting to go home, walking back to the Emerald city after throwing water on the Wicked Witch of the West. The adrenaline wears off as her and her companions, her friends, set up camp for the night, and it hits her. She's killed a woman.

Again.

And brave little Dorothy Gale tries to hold it together, tries not to worry the wonderful new friends who have supported her throughout her journey in Oz, tries to be brave. But eventually, once Lion and Toto are cuddled up and asleep, Tin Man has taken to staring into the small fire, and Scarecrow stays just inside the circle of light staring up at the stars, Dorothy lets herself cry.

She shifts to hide it, lies down and curls away from the fire, muffles her sniffles in the blanket they've carried for her. All the fear and loneliness, the frustration, the guilt that has built up since she dropped into Oz spilling silently out.

She breathes deep, trying to contain the sobs, until there's a hand on her shoulder, and Scarecrow is there looking at her worriedly. His eyes are buttons but the burlap surrounding them folds and crinkles around them, stitched eyebrows furrowing. She sits up slowly, watching as he tilts his head to the side, squeezing her shoulder gently.

Suddenly, she wraps her arms tightly around Scarecrow's middle, needing the comfort of a hug. (Dorothy is brave, yes, but she is twelve and homesick and guilt ridden.) She burrows her face into his chest, breathes in the familiar scent of straw. Her friend carefully rubs his hands down her back, whispering reassurances that she can't accept.

"oh, Scarecrow! I didn't want to kill her! I never--i never wanted to hurt anyone. I-I just want to go home!"

Scarecrow pauses, stills unnaturally for a moment, before pulling back from her. He looks her face over, button eyes twitching as his stitched mouth pulls into something like a grim frown. It is so unlike what Dorothy has come to expect from her boneless friend that it is mildly unsettling. The only time she recalls him being this serious is perhaps when they saw the Wizard and the man gave them the task to retrieve the Witch's broom.

Her Scarecrow friend is so often happy, carefree in a way that lifts her spirits. It wouldn't do now, would assuge her guilt, and his lack of levity grounds her in an odd way. She knows he had been afraid, or timid, or... Something else about killing the Wicked Witch. But now she's dead and Dorothy killed her, even if it was an accident to save him. She's unsure how long his seriousness will last. Or if it will reassure her.

He looks at her, unblinkingly (for Scarecrows with button eyes don't blink) before glancing over his shoulder towards Tinman tending the fire. He makes to stand, unusually graceful. "Let's go for a little walk, alright, Dot?" He says, almost casually, but there is a tension in his voice. She nods, allowing him to help her (however unsteadily) to her feet and wrap the blanket around her shoulders. They wander a ways away from their campsite, but still within sight of the fire Tin Man resolutely tends to.

Scarecrow loops himself down to lean against a tree and gestures for Dorothy to join him. When she's settled and the blanket is readjusted to let as little of the cooling night air touch her, he begins.

"I'm sorry I wasn't able to speak to you before all this." He gestures aimlessly. "But there were a lot of moving parts, and my mind is rather slow and tangled these days. Still. you should've known before hand."

"known what?" She can't help but ask. Scarecrow is acting mysterious. Though along their journey he sometimes would seem to know more than he left on, he'd never been avoidant of sharing with her before.

He sighs. "what I am about to tell you, Dorothy Gale, you must swear-" he grasps her hands and holds her gaze. "Swear you will never, ever, tell anyone."

Dorothy swallows. She nods. "I swear. Scarecrow, I swear."

"you must mean it. No-one in Oz can know of any of it."

She looks at Scarecrow, his button eyes meeting her perfectly human ones, and it strikes her that he has never seemed more human. He is obviously not; he has no bones and no organs; he feels no pain, can have his straw strewn about and restuffed and be perfectly fine; he does not need food or water or sleep; and he is, clearly, a scarecrow. But he has always had an air about him, a light in his eyes that leaves it without question that he was alive.

Now, though, with him asking, begging, her to swear she will keep some terrible secret for him; there is desperation in the way his voice trembles, his hands grip hers, his eyes stare her down. With that desperation, he seems fully human.

Dorothy squeezes his gloves hands, nodding. "I won't speak a word of it to anyone. Your secrets will be safe."

"Good. Good." He nods to himself. Shakes his head. "I am not quite sure where to start." He admits.

"the beginning?"

Scarecrow grins at her. Taps his burlap nose with his finger. "Ah, but where is that? When I met you? When I met her? Who's to say?" There is his silliness, sneaking through. It reassured Dorothy that perhaps this isn't some terrible story after all.

"you, I suppose?"

Shrugging, he sighs. "Yes. You're right." He rubs his ill formed jaw with his hand, takes a deep breath, and says with much gravitas, "her name is Elphaba Thropp."

Which doesn't make much sense to Dorothy. "Whose name?"

"The Witch of the West."

"how-"

"Dorothy," Scarecrow says. He rarely interrupts. "You must listen to the end. I am not telling you this to make you feel bad. Actually, hopefully it will ease your mind-" she doesn't know how knowing the name of the woman she killed will ease much of anything for her, but Scarecrow is so rarely serious. "Please listen. And-- and try not to judge me too harshly." She wonders what he might reveal that would make him think she'd judge him after he'd helped her so much. She nods.

He does what could be a swallow. He takes a deep breath, straw shuddering and trembling in him. His hands fiddle with the frayed hem of his shirt. "I know her name, because I know her."

Dorothy cannot hide her gasp. Scarecrow chuckles grimly. "Oh, Dot, it's worse than that." His head tips to the side as he looks at her. "I love her."

She shakes her head, pulling the blanket tighter around her. "But why--"

"I'll explain. I promise." He shrugs. "We met at school." He begins.

He tells her of almost-tramplings and of parties, and of roommates dated. "Glinda and I were never going to be long-term, if not for Elphaba, I suppose."

"Glinda? The good?"

"that's the one."

"oh my. Is it common for Scarecrows and Horses to attend school with Humans then?"

Scarecrow tilts his head again in that odd way of his. "Well, Animal bans restricted unsegregated businesses and schools. Under the Wizard things are very strict. Harsh. I had to make sure Feldspur was well away from the Emerald City a few years ago for his protection."

He sounded very grave, and the mention of the Wizard troubled Dorothy. He was behind Animals being pushed away? It didn't make sense. He was supposed to be wonderful.

"as for Scarecrows, I suppose I... Should have mentioned I... Well, Dot. I haven't always been a scarecrow."

"what?"

He scratches his cheek, shrugs. "I was Human, up until just before I met you"

"how??"

He winces. "I think I should tell it all in order, actually."

So he does. Explains how the Wizard tricked Elphaba, how she defied him, and he named her Wicked. Scarecrow tells her that he looked for Elphaba, that he and Glinda were sick with worry and grief, that they ended up in the Emerald City. How he continued his search.

Dorothy thinks he may never have told anyone this before. Scarecrow has been a steady presence for her during their travels, and now he unleashes secrets from his heart, she realises that he may have been pretending. For her sake.

His story continues mostly smoothly, until after he ran away with Elphaba (which, Dorothy can admit, she finds horribly romantic. Like something out of a fairy tale. It also causes acidic guilt to burn at her insides) and Elphaba had a vision of Dorothy coming to Oz and her sister's death. He trips and stumbles over their confrontation in Munchkinland, over him getting caught in Elphaba's place.

"I do not regret it." He says, steadily. And then avoids telling her anything that happened after except that they injured him, and he felt Elphaba's magic cover him. Then he met Dorothy.

She thinks the story finished, and is hurt and confused by why he would tell her all this. He loved the Witch, who was not so wicked, and Dorothy killed her. Why is he so kind, so gentle. He seems perfectly happy, now that all is in the open, despite that his love is dead. It makes no sense.

"I wrote to her, after we saw the wizard. Pure luck Chistery was able to get it to her."

He leans in, then, smiling. "Dot. Remember, I told you all this to ease your mind." He gives her hand a squeeze. "The most important thing you should know, from all of this. Is that Elphaba is a regular human woman that happens to have green skin." He says it significantly. Meaningfully.

It still confuses Dorothy.

He smiles, kindly, and asks "do you melt in the rain?"

Dorothy shakes her head.

"do you melt swimming in a pond?"

Another shake.

"do you cry in pain when you bathe?"

"no? It's just--" it hits her, then, what scarecrow is saying. She gasps. "It's just water." It comes out awed.

He nods. "Indeed."

"oh! It was a-a trick!"

His voice is sadder, now. "a cruel one, perhaps. But necessary."

"why?"

He tilts his head, hums. "For all the reasons I told you the story for. The Wizard sent us to kill her, and I love her, so I could not let it happen. If people know she's alive, she would be in danger. This way, we are free."

Dorothy can see it. See why Scarecrow told her all about their past. She had to know he loved her, had to know why he loved her, to understand why they did it, to accept it.

"I see. When will you meet her again?"

He smiles, big and full and bright. "As soon as I see you safely home, I shall meet her, and we shall leave Oz as well."

The thought swells Dorothy's heart. He sounds happy, her Scarecrow, self assured and unworried. He leaves his home to live with his love. It is tragically romantic.

She hugs him, smiling for the first time since they entered that castle. "thank you for telling me, Scarecrow."

He wraps his arms around her, squeezes, and says. "Fiyero."

She hums a question, making him chuckle.

"my name. It's Fiyero."

Dorothy pulls away, and continues to smile. "It has been very nice getting to know you, Fiyero."

"same to you, Dorothy."

She leans back in to hug him more thoroughly.

Tomorrow they will again set off to the tell the wizard of the Witch's death, but now it is enough for her to know that Elphaba lives.

#wicked #dorothy gale #fiyero tigelaar #fiyercrow #fics #finda writes stuff #once again foiled by starting a post with 'thibking about' and then it just becoming a mini fic #fiyeraba #fiyero and Dorothy #wicked musical #wicked movie #PLEASE NITE THIS IS UNEDITED AND WRITTEN QUICKLY #Maybe eventually I'll clean it up but not today #or this week. ive got a lot of wicked wips to finish and edit lol #wizard of oz #canon compliant #me: i shall write a short post pondering Dorothy's guilt and Fiyero telling her shes not a double murderer :)#my hands: *write a full rough draft of a fic in tumblr drafts*#me: ack!! not again!!!

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