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loriache · 1 year ago

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"I've been waiting for ages for somebody to unmask them."

This moment tends to elicit negative reactions in a first read through, and I've got some opinions about why where Kabru is coming from here actually makes a lot of logical sense. So I thought I'd elaborate on that.

I think people hear this and go, "He thinks they must be hiding something because they gave money to someone? What a cynic." Or "he dislikes them because they did charity?? What's wrong with this guy!". And obviously, a lot, a lot is wrong with him. But I think this makes more sense than it seems at first glance! What people evaluating this judgement miss is why Kabru is paying attention to Laios and co to begin with.

Kabru knows of the Touden siblings because (he's a little bit of a stalker-) he is keeping an eye on all the relevant parties in events developing on the island, in order to be able to guide them to his preferred outcome. This includes adventurers because they are the ones actually exploring the dungeon! He's well aware that something as minor as internal tensions between party members could be key to the historical events that are developing. (He would love the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.)

His desired outcome is that whatever the rewards are of breaking the dungeon's curse, whether that's kingship or the ancient elven secrets of dungeons, are claimed by:

A) a short lived person

B) Someone who will be a good, effective leader and/or use those secrets and the power they carry wisely, with foresight, and to establish a political bloc for short lived people.

The person he can best trust to do this is, of course, himself. But due to his PTSD regarding dungeons and monsters, he's not able to develop the necessary skills to conquer the dungeon. Once he realises this, he starts looking for someone else who he can support to that end.

But most of the adventurers don't have any intentions of conquering the dungeon, don't have the skills, or are unsuitable in other ways. In fact, it seems like some potentially suitable people are the Toudens. There are a lot of good rumours about them going around - they actually seem to have a very positive reputation! That's what Kabru means when he says "unmask".

So when Kabru is observing something like them giving money to an old comrade from their gold-peeling days, he doesn't consider it a problem because "they're giving money to this person who doesn't actually need it" or because they must have some dark secret if they act superficially nice. I think he actually understands this situation and what it implies about Laios (in particular) perfectly well.

Laios and Falin gave money to an old comrade who got injured and couldn't work. That person then healed up but kept taking their money. Then he used the money to start smuggling illicit goods to the island.

The key is that for Kabru, the problem here is the same as with the corpse retrievers - people using the dungeon's resources to fuel dangerous, selfish, or violent pursuits cause problems for the island, attract more criminals and people with motives other than breaking the curse, and increase the chances of the whole situation ending in tragedy.

Kabru is willing to work with the Shadow Lord of the island if it gets him to his goal - he isn't scrupulous - but the criminal element of the island increasing is something he sees as a major issue.

Also, when you're evaluating someone as a candidate for power, riches, secrets, potentially kingship - then being curious about how the money you give to people is going to be used is kind of a relevant trait!

Interpersonally, Kabru's actually very easygoing - I mean, Mickbell isn't exactly an upstanding guy, is he! But Kabru likes him and they get along well. These traits wouldn't be a problem at all in a friend, or a comrade, or someone Kabru was confident he could use. But he can't get a handle on Laios, and Laios is someone who has the potential to be a major player!

On Laios' end, this is the same as with the marriage seeker who joined their party. She kept asking for things and he gave them to her, because he tries to be nice to others. He even gives her money! It's the exact same thing.

That's fine, but it became a problem because he basically wasn't interested in her motives, didn't notice she was trying to manipulate him, and it also didn't occur to him that the other party members would notice or be affected. We can assume the situation with the gold peeler is the same. When Kabru says that "It's not that they're bad people, they just aren't interested in humans," he isn't wrong.

The extent to which this is true of Laios is linked to his autism imo, (because it isn't just disinterest - he genuinely isn't able to notice nonverbal cues that people are lying to him or have ulterior motives) but to a greater or lesser extent I think it's a very common trait. Most people aren't actually that interested in other people who aren't close to them. Kabru is the weird one here. It isn't an issue except as a leader - which is why we see an immediate comparison to the Island's Lord, because that's how Kabru is evaluating them.

And disinterest in/lack of ability with people to the extent Laios exhibits it, it does, actually, make him a worse leader... it's just that as we see in the story, people can help him out. The rest of the party tell him the marriage seeker is taking advantage of him so he tells her he can't give her special treatment anymore. They're pissed and it's a crisis point - he couldn't have recovered their trust without Marcille and Falin - but that's exactly the point. With Marcille and Falin, he was able to recover their trust.

And he has other good traits that make up for it, such as his intelligence, strategic knowledge, open-mindedness and sense of fairplay.

Kabru doesn't disqualify Laios as a candidate based on what he sees about him from afar, though - he still tries very hard to get close to him, obviously hoping that if he manages he can steer Laios to defeat the dungeon and make up for his lack of people-skills in the aftermath. (Which... he does eventually achieve that goal!) He completely fails until the events of the story, so... definitely I think "They just aren't interested in humans" could also partially be a stung reaction to Laios' complete disinterest in him.

Anyway, that's my read on what exactly Kabru's "issue" with Laios is. Obviously, once he does find out what Laios' true nature is like - about his love for monsters - he develops an entirely new set of fears about Laios' priorities. But since Laios kept that a secret until the start of the story, he has no idea of that yet.

Given all that, I think it's interesting that he says that he doesn't think that the Toudens are suitable to defeat the dungeon, and that he's hoping they'll turn out to be the thieves. As some of his few potential candidates, people who he thinks may play a big role in the island's future, you'd think he'd hope they would be good people!

I suppose it's better, in his eyes, because it means that he's involved in something "interesting". They haven't just had their stuff stolen by regular criminals (boring, puts them further away from his goal) - they've been caught up in the beginning stages of "a historic event". The desperate and dwindling group forgetting morals in their quest to retrieve their lost comrade probably appeals to his sense of melodrama. Because he also just... loves drama.

Despite it being "uglier than anything he was expecting", he still pursues Laios as the person he wants to conquer the dungeon pretty much as soon as it becomes clear that he won't be able to do it himself and they are out of time. That's because... well, to be fair, there aren't any other options. And he fits standard A: he's short-lived!

and Kabru still hopes he can fit standard B, too, and be persuaded to use the power he wins for good. No matter how many nightmares he has about Laios, or whether he thinks about killing him. He doubts him, but ultimately he puts his faith in him and seems happy after the manga's ending that he made the right decision.

#dungeon meshi #dungeon meshi manga spoilers #dungeon meshi meta #kabru of utaya #laios touden #labru #laios x kabru #dunmeshi #og post #kabru is such a big picture thinker. and he evaluates people more than he judges them imo #the hater jokes are funny but the people he judges most harshly arent laios and co. they're people like the island's lord.#but you don't see that as clearly because he isn't interested in the island's lord. he understands him. finds him contemptible but useful.#whereas laios lives in his brain rent free because he WANTS to understand him but doesnt quite.#even though he sees the elves as a major threat to his ultimate goals and dislikes the way they treat short lived races #he still understands and evaluates mithrun as an individual based on his own merits #he's one of the characters who is least judgemental in that sense because while he's always making judgements and evaluations #he's also constantly revising them whenever he gets more information #my beautiful machiavellian prince <3 #it's genuinely a really laudable way of understanding others imo.#the only problem is that because he's driven towards his goals by his PTSD and survivors guilt #he pushes himself into situations (the dungeon and also interpersonally) that trigger him or even just upset him #without regard for what he authentically wants or his own wellbeing.

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screambirdscreaming · 7 months ago

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Something that peeves me whenever I see another post going around with some variation on "autistic people take things literally which means we are the only people who communicate Clearly and Directly" is that - for any given statement, there is not one singular, agreed on, universal Literal Interpretation. If there was, none of this would be a problem!

The nature of language is that there's always some degree of interpretability. Words have several different meanings, often overlapping, and there's nuance of context, cultural references, and so on.

Faced with a statement, most people will quickly come up with an interpretation that to them makes the most sense. But if you asked a roomful of people to explain in detail their interpretations, everyone's would probably be a little different, even for a pretty simple statement. Regardless of whether those people are autistic! Everyone conceptualizes the world a little differently, and everyone has a unique personal history of all the language they've encountered, and these things effect our interpretations.

In order for communication to be workable, given this slosh in interpretability, there's another couple of processes that go on. As conversation goes on, people reassess if their initial interpretation matches up with additional context. If it doesn't, they revise it, or ask clarifying questions. And on the flipside of this process, the other person in conversation is tracking if your reactions make sense with *their* understanding of what they're trying to convey to you, and offering context or rephrasing things if it seems you're out of alignment.

These processes are social skillsets that are, like most social skillsets, not ever directly articulated or explained. Many people are bad at one or both. Sometimes you encounter someone who is really, notably good at it - the vaunted "good listener", who puts in the effort to really understand what you're trying to say, or that really excellent teacher who engages with you back and forth until you really get it. But a lot of the time, it's a sort of passive social friction - people just not getting each other.

Sometimes, you encounter someone whose brain works so much like yours that talking to them feels almost effortless - you just get each other. But that's a pretty rare occurrence for anyone. More often, as you get to know someone, you start to understand the shape of the way they interpret things and learn to account for it, so over time it's easier to make sense to each other.

It's honestly not uncommon in society for people to aggregate in groups of people who interpret things similarly, and who are thus easier to talk to, rather than actually building the skills of communicating across interpretation gaps. Particularly egregious are those groups of men who talk about Women as an incomprehensible monolith, but it turns up to a greater or lesser degree on a lot of levels.

I suspect this is the root of a lot of parenting problems - people who have never built this communication skillset, and relied on choosing friends who make sense to them without a lot of effort, and who are then totally unprepared to interact with a child who interprets things in ways they don't expect.

Obviously I can't speak to The Universal Typical Experience, not least because it doesn't exist. But in general I would posit that:

Most people, give or take a few assholes, are not trying to say things that are confusing. Most people think they are communicating clearly, because the first interpretation *they* would come up with on hearing one of their own sentences is the correct interpretation.

Many people are not very good at accounting for different ways people could interpret things they're saying. However, it is normal and polite social behavior to be somewhat flexible about this and forgiving of misunderstandings. If people are being shitty to you about not understanding them, they are assholes. And I wouldn't assume that the rest of the communication they have with everyone else they know goes totally smoothly for them.

I suspect there is a bit of an unfortunate feedback loop, where people have bad experiences when someone gets mad at them for not getting something, and learn to hide when they're confused. Which then leads to larger, more complicated misunderstandings, which other different people get upset at them about, because those people think they should have asked for clarification in the first place.

Truly you can't win with everyone. No one can win with everyone. There is no monolith of "neurotypical communication" which resolves all these contradictions - all those people you're lumping in together under "neurotypical" have just as much trouble with each other.

#this post brought to you by: the irony of people in the notes of a post about Literal Direct Communication arguing about #what would be a clearer and more unambiguous way to express the sentiment meant by 'autistic people take things literally'#'no *your* phrasing is even *more* confusing it should be -' do you see the problem yet perhaps #Look. If someone says 'I'm the only person who communicates Clearly and everyone else is the problem'#what I hear is 'I have no ability whatsoever to account for other ways people might be interpreting things differently from me'#This is all pretty longwinded. I might try to revise down a more concise version.#Concise is hard for me; that's something I'm working on #I just took out a paragraph about literal vs figurative language because it was clunking things up #But the long and short of it is that those aren't as clearly seperable as people sometimes claim #For one thing I often see 'literal speech' used to mean 'i think the interpretation is obvious' which is sure. A tautology.#anyway sorry for my rambling slash thank you for reading it #long post

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theminecraftbee · 2 days ago

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Joe: But the thing is, was he really me? I don’t think I’ve ever realized quite so much how I can’t tell if people feel like I do! How they think! Certainly looked and talked like me, but experientially? Totally different! Just as opaque to me as a stranger, or a friend, or a lover! What really is a lover then? Can I really connect to anyone if not myself?

Cleo: Yeah, but did you fuck your clone?

Joe: Oh yeah I mean obviously. Who wouldn’t?

#suggestive #had a ‘would x hermit do their clone’ convo in discord. wrote this.#anyway the answer for Joe is ‘yes but that being the question is CLEARLY short-sighted’#the answer for Cleo is also yes but she wouldn’t have a crisis about it.#anyway not tagging this. The people who want it will find it surely.

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canisalbus · 4 months ago

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For your gay little dogs

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#principal skinner pride flag for my gay little dogs #you see this is why my dog people need to see the same spectrum of colors we do #I feel like their literal world view would be drastically altered if they couldn't distinquish between orange and green #I'd argue that red is a significant color in practically every culture #it's instinctual associations with danger food and fertility make it attention grabbing on a visceral monkey brain level #I strongly suspect the impact would be at least somewhat negated if it was a muted brownish khaki instead #meaning it wouldn't be used in visual communication nearly as much #I would have to center my art and worldbuilding more around yellow and blue because those would be the colors the dogs would see clearly #right? is that sound logic?#and that would just make me immensely sad because warm colors are my favorites :<#answered #m0notropa-uniflora #something that continues to boggle my mind is that there are animals that see more colors than humans #we like to assume that our color vision is the best we can see it ALL look at that rainbow there that's the full set #yes primates are well equipped in this regard compared to many other mammals like dogs #but most birds for example have more color receptors in their eyes they have more tools to work with and their rainbow is even wider #it's like sound everyone knows we can't hear sounds that are impossibly low or too high #and we can't process wavelengths of light that are too long (infrared) or too short (ultraviolet)#only what lands between those bookends (called the visible spectrum) reads to our human eyes as “light” and subsequently “color”#I hope I've understood this correctly I'm trying to say that there's a whole layer of vision we don't have the hardware to get access to #and that's just wild to me like we are fundamentally unable to imagine a new color that isn't already included in our built-in selection #but they're definitely there the unimaginable colors are in the room with you and a common pigeon can see them #uv dlc not available for your system

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nenoname · 10 days ago

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the fact that neither of them got rid of the sigil or at least tried to make it stop being burning hot 24/7 still gets to me....

#like maybe stan assumed it was connected to the portal or something #but the fact its still up post-portal #and when ford can clearly see his brother being branded cos stan doesn’t try to cover it up #completely when he's in his casual mode 😭😭😭😭#i get that ford wouldnt write about that in the journal cos he's in full repress-guilt-about-stan mode at the time #but i still wanna shake alex until something about it falls outta his pockets lol #especially when he knows the meaning of the brand has been speculated about since forever #when the shorts literally brought it up as a mystery lmao #also stan at one point taking down the useless caution sign that was there....#(.......ford's terrible attempts at workplace safety tho dkdhsksksk)#(they're comical ignoring the fact that it constantly had life ruining consequences for both him and his loved ones)#(......i truly fear for the abw!employees)

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aardvaark · 10 months ago

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i love parker’s early grifts that are just like:

i am a waitress who is meant to be here :) i’m an fbi agent and the story im recounting is definitely about chasing a thief and not about *being* the thief :) i have had real live human friends before :) let me into your workplace

#leverageposting #leverage #parker leverage #and it works! like don’t forget she’s been doing short cons for a long time pre leverage!#she’s been a fake waitress or office worker or whatever many times #maybe ppl are like ‘huh that was a strange interaction’ but clearly not ‘shes lying and probably stealing from us’

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reflectingiridescent · 2 months ago

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Ooh one thing I forgot in my breakdown of The Grand Complication Job

Even if I hadn't seen Suspiciously Good Leverage-leaning posts from Jeri Ryan about coming back to Leverage over the past few years, the moment that clued me in to Tara being back was when the glass shattered around the watch, and we knew no one on screen we'd seen so far did it.

Because that kind of smash-and-grab, ask questions later, leave a tornado in your wake is not Parker's, Astrid's, or Sophie's style.

It is DEFINITELY hers though.

#tara burns hard and fast #and that's not really anyone else's style on the crew #everyone else on the crew has the ability to run a con #at least for a job here and there #tara is not that subtle #it's short cons and quick execution with clearly defined rules and direction #it's different but it works for her #and this is why I love her SO MUCH #she's such a foil to the crew in so many ways but they respect her #and sophie loves her and trusts her which says even more #parker doesn't even give her clear instructions just gives her enough #they all know how good she is #tara cole #parker #sophie devereaux #I LOVE IT HERE #leverage #leverage redemption #imagine the damage we'd do

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ebogosian · 3 days ago

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ASSAD ZAMAN as ARMAND in Interview with the Vampire | 2.04, I Want You More Than Anything in the World

#assad zaman #interview with the vampire #armand #iwtv #iwtvedit #assadzamanedit #azamanedit #amc iwtv #mine: gif #*#i love all of the scenes where he's clearly unhappy with smth but is trying not to let it show #and is doing a real bad job of it #so in short i love all of his scenes

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eddiesgaymustache · 3 months ago

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I do think the funniest thing they could do would be make episode 12 like a short film about how awful texas is and how Eddie has been blisteringly in love with buck and aware of it the whole time

#ruin! that! man's! LIFE #I can picture the Oscar bait short of my dreams sooooo clearly

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inumbrapugnabimus-maybe · 11 months ago

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Great explanation 👍

Redraw of this

#Linked universe #lu #lu four #my art #Linked universe fanart #au where four has to masquerade as a four year old #Meanwhile time is convinced he and four share the being-time-travelled-back-into-a-younger-body experience #Everyone else is just ??? the entire time #Bc this is clearly not a four year old but also he is really short??#Idk #I wanted to redraw this bc I’ve grown a lot #But smh I still like the old one better than this lol #Such is life ig

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rystiel · 4 months ago

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he’s got the spirit

#HAPPY VALENTINES DAY SANGIHUN NATION #i keep seeing this image everywhere so i finally gave in and sangihun-ed it #gi-hun glazing sang-woo per usual #sang-woo with the short answers but clearly also cares #🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻#squid game #seong gi hun #cho sang woo #sangihun #squid game meme #hi #:]

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berdyayeva · 5 months ago

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sometimes i think about this line implying jean doesn't usually wear his uniform. for some ungodly reason i can't think of a plainclothes outfit for him that doesn't involve a stupid fucking studded belt. i don't even think he would wear one i just. can't. think of anything else. get me out of here

#my art #jean vicquemare #disco elysium #for casual outfits he'd probably just wear like athletic gear or shitty oversized cargo shorts and t shirts #but like.... on the job?#i dont think he would go fuckin... harry or mack levels of batshit attire for a cop.#but clearly the standards are in the fucking ground. it could be anything #this is a dark nether space of possibilities that confound and scare me

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chaotic-carnifex · 2 years ago

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No hold on I'm gonna make an extra post about this:

I wouldn't choose to be alloromantic

If I were given the choice to either remain aro or become alloro again, I would choose aromanticism.

And I think a lot of people need to hear that.