#their relationship is... crunchy in this? | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

swiiivet-screamathon · 4 months ago

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(warning the keep reading section is really really long -- also bestie logged into the pc vers of tumbrlr just so i could ensure i got this written out how i wanted lmao)

ok i recognize that this might be a contentious subject given how my for you page has been, so just like mini warning i am very fragile & scared so pls dont be too mean if you disagree w me here lol

but i just have to write about it in a fashion that like, anyone can read about it? the thoughts are holding me in a chokehold and i need to be let free so let me vent lmao

ever since i rejoined crk w the intent of dissecting its story i wanna see when they fix the gaping plot hole w white lily lmao i've been writing out my complaints & strange things i've noticed, but one of the things i wrote there is about this subject:

I think out of our current known beasts, Shadow Milk has the highest possibility of being redeemed.

i'll immediately mention that I recognize my bias, i like the guy, i think he a goofy feller who chews the scenery really really hard and is in love w his own voice cause he has so much charm in his way of speakin, so ofc that automatically has to be taken account when i write this up, but i make this claim from the facts i know of with reasonable assumptions based off the facts, or at least i am trying to-- if it's any assurance I also like handsome jack & springtrap but think redemption is off the table for them, this is not coming from "i want every character i like to be a good guy" i do genuinely think it's possible. i also very much know "i just wanna" is not a valid argument lmao-- also quick mention I haven't finished chap 3 of oddessy or the dragon book, so if im missin info you have to wait for an addendum lol

anyways, i think the easiest point is to mention the contrast between him & the other beasts, as to prove why he's the most likely I have to adequately demonstrate why i think the others arent as likely, and I think it will also be decent framework to the rest of my conclusions

the one I think has absolute negative chance of being redeemed is Burning Spice, because no part of him to me seems like he ever wanted to or presently want to be his original virtue. I genuinely think if he never had the virtue thrust upon him he would've never accepted it at all ever; he was one of the first cookies so he got the title of Change, not because he was particularly specially suited for it.

Even in his very own description it mentions he was hailed as a hero because of how much he fought, he has for all of his life only wanted to fight, and used the virtue as an excuse and justification for his actions from the very beginning, one that he sort of believed in to some extent, otherwise he would've never kept any civilization alive ever at all, but he wouldn't have been so gungho about combat for all of his life if he truly believed in change, one who did represent it would recognize that the cycle of life and death does not have to be perpetuated by violence or combat, nor does all change have to involve the death of another.

He also has his past the most secretive out of the 3, the only hint i noticed of his past displayed in the present day was the single mural that we saw the flashback through, which the only way we saw the flashback at all was through the souljam, meaning only his other half had ever the chance of learning what he was like back in the day and no one else. The only way you would even know that the mural is about the past is the 6 arms (since the rest of it depicts cookies burning up into ashes, Sheese describes it as looking like a carnage after all) which is something im not sure if present day sbice can do, but it also doesn't strike me as something the citizens would assume means he was originally a virtue either, it'd probably just be read as sbice being far more powerful than they think of him as.

I don't think he should've ever gotten the title of a virtue, I don't think if given the choice he would've accepted the virtue, and I don't think he ever 100% believed in the virtue and from day 1 has used it as an excuse to satiate his desires.

Speaking of his other half, i dont think there's any universe where Gheese would ever forgive him either, if she won't even forgive one of her best friends for something she shouldn't blame her for I'll try to not get hung up on lily too much sry lmao, required her paradise to fall to war and even then barely got convinced and that he physically mutilated her? There's no way she would ever look past Sbice's actions in a million years, which isn't a great habit to have if you want to redeem someone. So yeah, I think Sbice is off the table as possible candidates lol

Mystic is a different story from Sbice, and will probably end up being the second most likely, including the unreleased beasts.

I've got no idea how they're gonna make sloth into a villain, girlie who does nothin and can't bring themselves to do anythin at all doesn't really feel like someone who can cause much of a fight, and depending on the definition of sloth you're workin w you can attribute it to resting, which is important to any fighter. But especially since their original virtue is happiness I'm presuming sloth is going to be presented very similarly to Gheese's paradise, one w lavish existence, having all your needs met, drowning in fulfilment and no one has to struggle, because surely that leads to bliss-- which still doesn't make me read them as a villain to me, which yk, makes redeeming pretty pointless?

And mr Silence is uh, idk..? What the deal is? I don't read solidarity as a virtue or silence as a sin, i think tumblr knows more than most the benefit of silence actually lmao-- takin the quickest of googles to recheck my definition of solidarity ig its supposed to be unity? so like, teamwork? ig mby the more plain wording of the guy is virtue of Communication and then beast of Not Communicating, which ig I can see how that could make the girlie a villain if its done deliberately, which makes redemption I think at least a little less likely than Mystic but more likely than Sbice.

Anyways!! Tangent ahoy! Point is, I think Mystic is second most likely to be redeemed lmao

Both Smilk & Mystic has the same thing in common that makes me think that they're the likeliest to be redeemed: the continued belief in a 'good', non-beastly trait.

(I should preface that I saw Mystic's story as it was released, but I am rechecking through the logs just to make sure I'm not bein a blatant dumbass, but I might've missed somethin by skimming through the logs)

With Mystic though she doesn't have a ton of connection with Volition in the present day but she does have some-- compared to the past which is the inverse where she mostly had a connection w it but did waver, but only by a very slight amount, one that comes along with every idea of 'freedom': the dissonance between free action vs humanity/personhood. But in this situation unlike a lot of other examples its become her achilles heel. Some people's free will is to assault, murder, harass, maim, damage, rob, whatever else, and hell her (probably) supposed friend Sbice was most likely one of those people.

So what was the answer to deal with the people who were violent and cruel? She took their volition away, she wouldn't give them their wish, her method of displaying her virtue, completely going against it.

(if you want to argue that she did not choose to not grant their wishes but was instead physically unable because of her cocooning then she would still be making a choice to not fulfill her virtue for all cookies which was her goal, but i dont think that's that case anyways)

It's difficult to encapsulate how I believe she viewed her own virtue, I think she fully believed in the virtue in principle, the idea of free will is a good thing after all! Taking away people's free will is a bad thing! But the moment it had to be played out in practice it all fell apart for her, showing that she never really truly believed in it as a real concept along w its consequences, only the image of it, what she wanted it to be, not what it truly was

No, what Mystic wants is Cacao's virtue, Resolution, one of the earliest mentions what I can tell is Haetae pitting his & her resolution against each other, but it's something brought up time and time again, and something she displays over and over. It's something I saw about when the chapter was being released, she's really bad at the whole Apathy thing,

(I am running against the 30 image mark constantly, I have to trim this down, sorry lol, keep on reading to understand my formatting, also sorry if some of the order is incorrect I'm not double checking the chronological events of all these quotes beyond my first check before I had to remove the screenshots, I'm just trusting me from a couple hrs ago lol)

??? (Mystic): It is my purpose to protect Cookies with my unwavering willpower and lead them to Paradise. I enclosed myself in a cocoon for the sake of my followers. And yet the world seen from inside the cocoon was far from pure... Cookies putting their own green first, pushing and shoving to have their own wish fulfilled before anyone else...Witnessing this, my heart grew forlorn and empty. At first I believed this emptiness would crumble my dough, but my enclosed cocoon remained strong and intact throughout the ages. Time comes and goes as Cookies are baked and crumble once again... But I learned how to overcome time itself simply by being me. Just as I was one step away from becoming the Leavened One... Someone spread a false rumor that my cocoon was full of treasures. Mystic Flour Cookie: The cocoon was cut open with one slash of a sword. "Fake immortal," they said, just like you. ... What do you think of my story? Does it not make you feel... like everything is futile? No matter how strong your resolve is, no matter how hard you try, this world will never change. *** Mystic Flour Cookie: My soul jam, come to me. Return to your rightful owner. *** Mystic Flour Cookie: At last, I am complete. I can feel the force of Volition within. Mystic Flour Cookie: Return to nothing, as if you never existed in the first place. This is the world of perfect apathy... that I've been dreaming of. ***

she has desires/dreams of her own, hell she wants her souljam more than anything, the whole reason she was in the cocoon was for her people, one of the first things she says after bein released from the cocoon is a story where she reiterates her purpose & explains the reason she didn't kill herself was because of her resolution. the story itself is dumb as well, she concludes that everything is futile because, checks notes, some guys enacted upon their own volition? that story should be one that enforces your virtue not prove it doesn't work

bestie goes from "resolution? who's she? a worthless cause?" to "that resolution is mine actually" in like 2 sentences, she's a perpetually ideologically conflicted char

She explains a little bit as well in the beginning, how she came to the conclusion, one that once again doesn't go against her own virtue: that when one desire is met, you don't just cease to exist and will probably want more things ever in your life, which is the premise of volition? If you didn't have free will you wouldn't have the option to gain new desires, you couldn't achieve things you want w/o having the capacity and freedom to want, this whole ordeal is a part of the print, yet she takes it as a reason to believe everything is meaningless and nothing will change, revealing she's really lost the plot because she is looking insanely zoomed out lmao

as established later on, she sees every action as meaningless in the wake of infinity, but that would be more equatable as antithetical to volition, as the ability to make choices requires a timeframe, but it's not antithetical to apathy, as you can very much see infinity in an apathetic light but that is a choice you're making, ironically. You can see infinite as wonderous, as scary, as aspirational, as most emotions really-- personally i see infinity as worth fighting for, i think immortality is pretty neat, and frankly i dont think thats very apathetic of me lol

idk if you realized this mystic, but you're not asking for apathy *and* the removal of volition in any these sentiments, youre actually asking for complacency, which doesn't have to be antithetical to apathy but they're very close siblings, as you can be happy with what you have, ie not apathetic, and not want anything more, ie complacent, but because mystic doesn't realize any of this they act like apathy will solve the problem of bad people doing bad things, so will use the power of resolution to ensure that her idea of apathy, total death and later the acquisition of the souljam, will be enacted, because that's totally very apathetic of her /lh

Her belief in apathy is as strong as an emo teens belief in edgyness and dark eyeshadow, and has as much of a backbone as one of them. She doesn't truly fully believe in her apathy at all, no matter whatever she says otherwise, but she believes she has completely lost her belief in volition, even though she hasn't given all said previously. Apathy sounds like the closest answer to her loss in belief but the two ideas really have incredibly little relevance to each other in any intrinsic matter, the opposite of volition isn't anywhere close to apathy, in fact they aren't even antithetical, you can choose by your own will to be apathetic and not care, you can choose to lock yourself away, you can choose to value other things over emotion & desire-- all she is is a girlie who's pissed because bad guys exist and will use their free will to do bad things, thats it, it has nothing to do with apathy, she simply chose to see the world in that manner.

The only thing she does that's anywhere close to doing anything antithetical to volition is taking the people's choice away in living w her pale ailment, the victims didnt exactly choose to keep on living after all, but that seems more like a happy accident rather than something she would actually align with if she was truly Apathy, if she was apathy she would've just stayed in the cocoon, it doesn't matter what everyone else does, it doesn't matter what they think, it doesn't matter what i do, it doesn't matter if i live- a truly apathetic character couldnt bring themselves to act upon the idea that everyone should be as apathetic as themselves, because you would care then! it's very similar to my description of sloth, Apathy can't be a villain, so the way she's a villain is by being one of the most passionate and resolute people around whilst waving the flag around that she's totally apathetic guys trust me bro

also two rq mentions, firstly when mystic shows the kingdom w/o cacao she shows choco's subjects being devoted & choco choosing not only to be a leader but a good one at that & grieving his late father, she is truly incapable of imagining a person who's not driven by volition & resolution to some capacity, or at the very least if you want argue this is fabricated to specifically undermine cacao's resolution and not a depiction of what she thinks will realistically occur, she doesn't think apathy on its own is a convincing enough argument leading her to need to launder her ideology, which really is a great example of her believing it's inherent validity huh?-- and secondly that chippy didn't turn to futility or apathy when he got wooshed heh

(one thing im genuinely unsure about is how real these dustings are, they seem like they were just imagined up by mystic, but i forgor lol)

i've yapped way too long about someone who isnt smilk in a post about smilk lmao, but finally tldr, i believe she is a character who never commited to anything yet put her whole pussy into acting like she did lmao, she believed she was the virtue of volition yet folded when it actually displayed the reality, deciding to instead hold onto her idealized false version of it up to this day, and she claims to believe that she has achieved enlightenment and subsequently apathy yet cannot stop being resolute for 2 whole seconds lmao-- i don't think mystic has the capacity to return to being the virtue of volition, since she doesn't believe in it in a practical sense anyways and it'd be really really hard for them to justify why you should let ppl do assault, but I do think she can become a sister believer of resolution, she can't stop displaying her resolution through her conviction to apathy after all, no matter how much she insists otherwise. i also wouldnt be surprised if they gave instead a synonym, virtue of conviction or somethin heh

Even cacao realizes her, pity, her anxiety, her childishness, everything impossible to be whilst trying to be apathetic, she never succeeded in what she preached and it's blatantly obvious that's the case

feck, speaking of him, i should also talk about cacao shouldnt I? i'll try to be quick-- Cacao is not a man of incapability to forgive like Gheese, as long as you're not a threat to what he's resolute about he's generally fine, especially since he has also shown capacity of recognizing when he himself is in the wrong, it would for sure take a while and a third party would definitively be needed since i'm not sure if we've ever seen him change his mind w/o bein heavily pushed to do so, but in no way do I think w enough evidence that she means no harm would he not accept Mystic if she were to try to redeem herself, but she would probably have to do a lot to prove that to him before he would forgive and he'd watch from afar to see her actions

ok, finally, lmao, the smilk part, i'll try to make it longer than the mystic part so i dont feel like ive wasted your time w her /j who am i kidding all of this is a waste of time im an amateur in analysis and writing and also autistic idk any shit lol im just hopin im coherent and not inherently nonsensical

you might've noticed that as I wrote about the two previous beasts I've laid down the groundwork for some requirements, for features I believe are necessary for the possibility of redemption for any of these characters, which to speak plainly here:

They should have either elements of their previous virtue present in the current day or have the capacity to embark on the path of a new virtue.

Their belief in their beastly aspect should not be absolute and either be depicted as wavering, contradictory or partially believed in.

They should have the capacity to believe they are wrong and thus capable of learning to any degree.

The other half of their soul jam should not permanently reject them.

And uh, if you don't see where I'm going with this, yeah I think that is completely and unabashedly true for Smilk ^^ time to try to adequately prove it lol

Rightio then, how should I tackle this... have them all go down in order ig? or eh, i'll swap the last two, i think that makes it easier to explain, very well then

Coming back to this a little later this absolutely barely works lmao, I'm mostly just making a ton of sub categories that hopefully I can string into somethin coherent lmao, I'll try to make it sensible lol

... It seems I have reached the image limit....

Ok problem solving time, all quotes displayed like this are all quotes directly found from the game, I don't have the energy to source which chapter it is from as I haven't for any of the screenshots lol, but know that unless stated otherwise they are all found within the quest logs menu thing, hopefully thats a good enough middle ground, cause I have 0 energy to figure out how to work around the image limit, if there is a workaround-- I'm gonna reduce the redundant repetition of names since this text block doesnt have the same restrictions as the game does and to differentiate large walls of separate quotes the segment will end with a *** ... + when one of those separating lines of elipses occurs means some dialogue in the same section was skipped, as it's either filler or irrelevant to the point im making, i am trying to not source even more than i have to yk lol

As a final reminder before entering the Smilk section, ofc he fuckin lies, he lies a lot lmao, but a big part of what I'm going to be saying is that he does not lie all the time. I will sometimes put things into sections you might disagree w their authenticity in regards of truthful sentiments, if he is clearly lying about a subject that the quote is being categorized within, then the category probably isn't about assuming absolute truth is coming out of his face hole, it probably matters to the grander themes and messaging of the entire story lol.

They should have either elements of their previous virtue present in the current day or have the capacity to embark on the path of a new virtue.

Light of Truth...?: I govern all Truth and Deceit of this world. What you mistake for the power of Truth is but a cute tiny droplet in my limitless ocean of Knowledge. So! What am I?! Need another hint? I thought you would've solved my little riddle by now! Pure Vanilla Cookie: The one who governs all Truth and Deceit... The Master of All Knowledge...? Light of Truth...?: RING DING DING! *** Silverbell Cookie: It's all a lie! There's no way that His Majesty protected the seal for such selfish reasons... Wizard Cookie: Shadow Milk Cookie is the Cookie of Deceit. Of course he's full of lies! White Lily Cookie: He's not simply making up obvious lies, but weaving in threads of truth to his story... *** Fortune Teller Cookie: ... The lord of this tower is a Cookie all-knowing. Space and time intertwine in a myriad of reflections here. For in the realm of Knowledge, there is more than one truth. *** Shadow Milk Cookie: Ahem, rise and shine! Daydreaming again? Do understand, I'm not mad. I'm simply disappointed. For you fail to see the truth. THIS is not an other-realm. ... It's time to accept the truth you like so much, Pure Vanilla Cookie. *** Shadow Milk Cookie: The Truth... How do I put it? It has a rather ugly countenance. Some Cookies prefer the safety of a sweet lie, afraid to stick their head outside, to the cold reality. Others? They find a twisted pleasure in weaving deceit for their own benefit. I know exactly what you're thinking. BEEN THERE, so to speak! My boy, the universe once was but an open book to me. Time and space unfurled before my eyes. Truthless Recluse: Perhaps, it's not an easy task for those who haven't witnessed the majesty of Truth and Knowledge. *** Shadow Milk Cookie: Look at this fallen seeker of Truth. Your mind is like an open book!*** ??? (Sapph): The great Shadow Milk Cookie, Archmaster of all Knowledge and Deceit there is, played a genius stroke by leading our reckless foes right into his trap in the spire! ... And now, I invite you to sit back, relax, and forget about the boring notions of Truth and some such! Instead, join me tonight on our fantastical, magical journey...*** Shadow Milk Cookie: Ah, Cookies! They just love a good gossip, don't they? Something to gnaw on, truth or not. Black Sapphire Cookie: Excellently said, My Lord! A droplet of Truth in a concoction of Deceit works wonders! Soon, this world will kneel before you, Master Shadow Milk Cookie!*** Black Sapphire Cookie: Knowledge and Lies have existed since the very genesis of these lands. Master Shadow Milk Cookie's power is truly beyond all measure and comprehension! Shadow Milk Cookie: Lo and behold! I shall purge the darkness of the unknown and illuminate your future!

This point is the biggest reason why I thought he could ever have a redemption all along, because HE WON'T STOP TELLING US THIS IS THE CASE, he LOVES the truth, he LOVES knowledge, the only way to tell the truth is to know things, and the only way to lie is to also know things, a baby cannot lie, they don't know shit lol-- lying inherently and intrinsically is a distortion of knowledge automatically requiring his virtue to be a part of the equation, and smilk cannot shut up about how much he knows that to be true. He will preach the virtue of truth (this ones important dont gloss over it lol), he will choose to tell the truth, he will admit that he isn't lying, he will make his own truth. At no point did Sbice want abundance, and there was a single point where Mystic even admitted that she had a grain of volition within her and all other cases were accidental, but he will just. not. stop. mentioning. truth.

Pure Vanilla Cookie: I realized that my power and his... They are like two sides of the same Coin... What do I do? *** Light of Truth (Smilk): I am the Light of Truth. And the truth is... Your dreadful adversary and I. We might not be much different after all. One and the same... *** Pure Vanilla Cookie (Interspersed w Smilk): Truth and Deceit... Like two sides of the same Coin... Perhaps, those dreams are merely a trick to confuse me... A product of my power resonating to Shadow Milk Cookie's presence... ...!!! No, impossible!... Or is it?... Even so, he and I are different. Shadow Milk Cookie and I are different! And yet... that custodian's riddle... It was too easy... And this place... it feels oddly familiar. Ever since I gained my Soul Jam, I've come across so many questions without answer... I wonder... Did the Fount of Knowledge feel this too? All this doubt and confusion? Like I do? Pure Vanilla Cookie...?: All the roads I have ever taken... All the roads you have ever taken... They all lead to Him. Pure Vanilla Cookie: These are not my words! Once the Fount of Knowledge: You and I are bound... ... You will see.*** Pure Vanilla Cookie (Smilk): Knowledge, Deceit... Maybe they are not that different. ... Pure Vanilla Cookie...?: Oooh, looks like we have an expert in the audience! Shadow Milk Cookie: Very well, go ahead. Prove me wrong! *** Light of Truth...?: Why, you've said it yourself! We are like the two sides of the same coin! *** Shadow Milk Cookie: I know exactly what you're thinking. BEEN THERE, so to speak! My boy, the universe once was but an open book to me. Time and space unfurled before my eyes. You... You are merely following in my footsteps. ... Oh but it's inevitable. In the end, you will become... me! And it's gonna feel good!***

[That entire section lol ^] Gingerbrave: Phew! Pure Vnilla Cookie will play White! Shadow Milk Cookie: Huh? That doesn't seem right... Are you sure? Wizard Cookie: What?! That's cheating! Shadow Milk Cookie: Aren't we like two peas in a pod? I get that a lot! Heh. Sometimes it's hard to tell us apart! *** Truthless Recluse: I think I'm beginning to understand him. And... it fills me with fear and self-loathing.*** Shadow Milk Cookie: Oh, we are one and the same now! Meet the other Cookie of Deceit, Pure Vanilla Cookie!***

It is also repeatedly emphasized w PV & Smilk specifically, not any of the other beasts what i recall, that they are two sides of the same coin, unlike the other pairs who although are both representative of their respective virtue are incapable of existing with one another, these two are both aspects of knowledge and they need each others traits to exist as a whole, there can be apathy w/o resolution and there can be destruction w/o abundance, but there cannot be lies w/o truth and truth w/o lies is pretty antithetical to humanity, autonomy & consideration, which at least I think are decently important for ppl who, yk, give a shit at all, like pv lol. They both on separate instances deny it whenever it starts hitting just a smidge too close to home, but it's a theme that runs continuously throughout the entire story.

Shadow Milk Cookie: But then... a particularly wise Cookie, who had seen the truth of this world, appeared in his kingdom. Smart Cookie: And she said, "I've seen the truth of this world! It needs the strength of the Five Great Cookies to exist!" ***

I'm not sure if this is the best category to put it in, but since I mentioned the coin thing here I'll mention it here too, Smilk likes truth tellers and truth knowers, to at least some extent, someone who fervently believed otherwise I think would struggle to admit otherwise. I take that observation specifically off a video I saw a while ago, an acknowledgement of a strange behavior, that a conservative guy made a parody newshow of leftists based entirely on lying and struggled to stick to the bit, since the conservative doesnt believe trans ppl to be real and are just one gender pretending to be the other, you would then believe that the newshow that lies all the time would disagree and claim that they arent just pretending, but that would require for just a moment that the conservative guy has to say w his own words that trans ppl arent just pretending, and since the belief is so vehement that they are just pretending they cant for a second do what they believe to be lying and thus end up making the lying newsshow accidentally trans validation. Although I very much think Smilk to be physically capable of making such a lie, if he does indeed believe all these truthers to be foolish idiot morons, I don't think he could psychologically get himself to admit that.

And finally a little bit of a catchall of him generally displaying otherwise 'heroic' traits, stuff that could be compiled in that 'new' virtue, even if they are, ofc, twisted in some capacity, usually pretty heavily-- I'm well aware we're talkin about Smilk here dw this isnt me tellin me he's the good guy all along lmao

Shadow Milk Cookie: Shadow Milk Cookie couldn't forgive the foolish king for how unjustly he treated the Five Great Cookies! And so... He decided to dispose of the foolish Kinch and save his comrades! ***

Saving your friends and disposing of the villain is usually done by protagonists of all media, so why be a hypocrite for him?

Shadow Milk Cookie: Those False Heroes were nothing more than petty thieves. They stole the powers of the Five Great Cookies, who had been sealed away so unjustly, and used these powers at (a?) whim! ***

Ik this is gonna be shockin, but stealing is usually bad lol and being locked away unjustly is a decently common trope for heroes, even Gheese got that experience later on lol

crk on a couple occasions has believed the opposite idea, that lying is having your eyes closed and the truth vice versa, but for the characters of Smilk & PV it's the opposite, the man with his eyes closed at all times is the man who speaks the truth, and the one who has a heavy open eye motif is the liar, so any instance of either doing the opposite is worth considering. A different post made by someone i do not have the capacity to go check on, made me really really think about what that is, and although I don't think my answer is airtight, I think it is because of trust & the choice. In the same vain that cats will close their eyes around those they trust, if you believe something to be true then closing your eyes to not see any possible distortions of the truth is you choosing to trust that what you know is real. That's why way way back when mr was Healer Cookie, he didn't know the truth, and had to be shown it, because a blind fold isnt having your eyes closed voluntarily, his eyes were closed so he could not get new information until he took them off, but the truth wasn't real as the (metaphorical) ones who put them on him had an agenda. With deceit, which already is heavily associated as a choice anyways, is you choosing to take in new information about the world, all information, truth or not, your senses also being inherently biased, and you're not trusting at all. Again, I'm not fully confident about this interpretation, but I do at the very least feel like it has something to do with volition (teehee).

And the final point on this case, I'll get into the sage skin a little later, I think it needs the context of all the points for me to say the words in a coherent manner, but when you tap on him with his skin he will close both his eyes, indicating he is a truthful figure, and default Smilk will wink at you, one eye closed, the other open, he is both truth and deceit, he is to this day the virtue of knowledge

Their belief in their beastly aspect should not be absolute and either be depicted as wavering, contradictory or only partially believed in.

This section has sort of been made obsolete because of previous one, that Smilk cannot just shut his face about how much truth means to him, but I'll try to collect all the instances he just outright tells the truth here, w what I believe to be no caveats, manipulation or distortions. And I only mean sections that he could obviously lie, ofc if he's just expositing plainly or sentences w no comparable false equivalence then I'm not adding those, this isn't a dump to add all of his dialogue in one spot lmao. "..." is hard to make a lie out of lol

Shadow Milk Cookie: You may be celebrating your little victory for now... But heed my words! We have finally risen. Do not think that you can hold us back. ... Pure Vanilla Cookie: ...Shadow Milk Cookie's lies... always have a grain of truth in them. His last words sounded like a warning to us... Perhaps, they were truthful after all. ***

I'll move this section down from the previous category though, since this is the biggest instance of him displaying his antithesis to his beastly nature. The thing that is absolutely most interesting in terms of the idea that Smilk is just fully a believer of the truth specifically, is the chess game. The chess game is the peak point of why this has held me on such a chokehold. I'll summarize the game here for ya, once you read later into this whole text you'll know why I choose to not rely as heavily on quotes.

Besides Brave noticing that it's a big chess board, it is then established that "Each move is like a stimulating conversation, unfolding one step at a time!", which boy don't you know it lmao. The special rules of this version of chess is listed out, the most important one for this section is:

You surely have to realize how big of a deal this is? right? That the beast of deceit, who supposedly should fully have given up on knowledge, be a full believer of lies and intrinsically oppose the Light, chose on his own to play a game with no lies, exclusively with the truth involved, for the sake of gaining knowledge? He's just returning to his Fount days here, the only difference is that he's a bit more of a maniac but that doesn't inherently devalue his connection to his past and mirrored virtues, he's fully and completely demonstrating that not only would he be capable of reform in theory, but that he doesn't even need reform in his belief, he still believes in knowledge and he still believes in the truth, why the hell else would he employ tactics he wouldn't believe in? The entire crux of his own fall is his lack of conviction and self confidence on his own end, and this shows clearer than any scene that he fully still believes in his old virtue, and we know the reason he fell all those days ago into the beast is because Cookies rather choose the sweet, savory taste of Deceit over the harsh reality of the Truth, not because he himself stopped believing in it, abso-fuckin-lutely does it make sense that he never ever shuts up about Truth, because he hasn't given up on it, it's integral to his current believed ideology after all.

Cough, anyways, there's more to the chess scene lol.

He then does his first act of cheating ever, all of his previous acts of deceit technically hasn't broken any rules, implicitly or explicitly, and then possibly argues that he sees Pv as the same as him.

Once the missing chess pieces are acknowledged and the gang gets turned into them, curiously Smilk Points out that they volunteered and wasn't forced by Smilk, which also curiously was a point mentioned earlier this chapter where Pv on his own accord went to the spire. He's starting to point just straight up facts, another word for truth, he's doing it for a point he wants to make later, but it's interesting that the first time he does it is when he was the peak of his villainy, ie peak deceit, so therefore had no reason to speak the truth yet did it anyways and the second time when he's the most Fount he'll ever be this entire chapter.

Shadow Milk Cookie: Let's get this game going! You gotta tell the truth, only the truth, and nothing but the truth! Or your pieces won't move!

He begins with what he believes will be an easy question for Pv, what is a lie? Answered as "... The antipode of truth." Which we can't inherently take as a fact, not in our current state at least, we've got no way of knowing if this is some sort of cosmic entity controlling the board or if Smilk is determining what is the truth, but I think it's easier to assume that it's his belief, especially since it'd be inline with his other conclusions. The second question is however a lot more interesting, what is the truth? which is answered as "The only right thing that must be protected." and that is right, and as we just moments prior established, odds are the answers are what Smilk believes, Smilk agrees with this answer, he also believes that truth is the only right thing and must be protected. This is extraordinarily close to being an outright admission that he's not even a beast, he has no stakes in deceit, he doesn't believe in deceit, it's not right and it shouldn't be protected, he's most likely firmly in team Truth, but because he is so caught up in, ironically, his own game, he doesn't even realize that he's done such a blunder. If you think that interpretation takes it too far, then at the very least what factually did happen is that he was laughing, finding this exercise fun and kept playing, what he didn't do is disagree, or call the board wrong, or say that the board is lying. The next question is probably the closest we get to confirmation that he is controlling what is and isn't truth here, as Pv answers the question he believes to have understood which causes the piece to move but then stop in its tracks to indicate a wrong answer, if he had misunderstood the question and Smilk wasn't in charge I don't think the piece would've jammed in place like that, but Smilk's intent is to prod at Pv, so making the process as painful as possible is a part of that goal.

He is absolutely ecstatic about truly catchin Pv in a lie, he's been pretty quiet or hostile up until this point, and he seemed unsatisfied with the river situation, but here, he truly, legitimately and fully caught him in a lie, for the first time. And then proceeds to be a bad winner about it lmao, but importantly is in love with the possibiltiy that Pv might not know the difference between right and wrong, which, once again, ironically, is happening to him this entire match lol

Shadow Milk Cookie: Ah, what a thrilling game! Looks like I have the upper hand! He he he he he!

Mans is lost in the sauce lol. When he notices the souljam reating he pivots into talking about White Lily, which really seems to affect Pv poorly to Smilk's excitement, and then once again goes at it from the angle that he's not at fault, that this is actually all Pv's fault. Where he then just says the funniest thing huh.

Shadow Milk Cookie: In the end, it all comes down to a very simply conclusion. If the so-called "truth" were the only right thing, it would've granted you the power to overcome all the odds you've been up against! Whose fault is it?

Don't tell Smilk which category this is in, or the words he said like 3 paragraphs ago lmao, he'd be fuming right about now xddd

As Pv admits that he agrees, that he is weak and is all at fault, Smilk bursts into laughter and starts taunting Pv, absolutely adoring watching him fall further and further. But then does another really funny thing.

Shadow Milk Cookie: If I was able to bring you down so easily... That makes me your Truth, doesn't it?! Yours and everyone else's! ... And so, the ultimate Deceit becomes the ultimate Truth! Now that's right up my alley!

Smilk go 5 seconds in this chess match not being your own antithesis challenge level impossible lmao.

He then repeats an idea he said in one of the first chapters, something that because I've organized this poorly that I don't think y'all know about yet, that Smilk wants to control Pv, and that pv and just relax and follow his command. Smilk with his final question pulls out his testing of the waters, what he truly believes in, going full project blast canon lmao-- Since he believes his endeavour of knowledge was futile, that his sharing of the truth was landed on deaf ears, perhaps his own vision was incorrect all along, was his entire purpose, his life? A lie? And that filled him w supposedly enough regret to get him to beastify. So now he believes he has put Pv through the same feelings, the same disappointment, the same futility, the same disproving, that he must also regret his whole life now. But he reacts unexpectedly, he starts laughing, to the confusion of Smilk, where Pv starts to just cheat..... Which Smilk LOVES, he LOVES it SO much, the projection being completely and utterly dodged doesn't matter at all, because Pv is becoming more like him!! He is clearly embracing deceit!!! He is far more than overjoyed at this moment, the loudest and most excited his own entourage has ever seen. He admits that he thought Pv still had more resolution, but this here showing proved otherwise and commends him for the act, adoring that Pv is fulfilling his potential and using his own tricks.

I really, really hope that I've at least a little bit conveyed how much this entire game revealed Smilk's full hand with this game, seemingly entirely beneath his very own nose: he displayed he still believes in truth and knowledge, that he doesnt believe in deceit, that he views himself as the ultimate truth, that he's torn down his own defences around Pv a fuckton, and I'm not sure if he event knowingly told a single lie during the entire match, just prodded the guy and faked a single coin. If anything at all killed his chances to win as a villain it was the chess game, it undermined his power internally and externally a huge amount, and he never recovers it again.

The other half of their soul jam should not permanently reject them.

(ie, the pv analysis also included in here lol)

Pvs change into acceptance is definitively most obvious at the very end, and I'll ofc show my work even if everyone knows it, especially if you follow the smilk tag and are the likeliest to read this lol-- but it did not begin at the end, nor is it exclusive to the latest chapter, there has been drips of it earlier.

Shadow Milk Cookie: Out of these false heroes, which ones is only half a Cookie? ... Gingerbrave: None of them! Shadow Milk Cookie: WRONG!!! ... Pure Vanilla Cookie: The right answer is... All of them. Shadow Milk Cookie: ..... RING DING DING!!! Did you hear that?! A correct response from our sharp audience! My my, I'll let you advance to the next round!*** Shadow Milk Cookie: Out of these three Cookies... Who is the biggest liar? ... Pure Vanilla Cookie: The biggest liar is... me, Pure Vanilla Cookie. ... Pure Vanilla Cookie: ... It's correct, isn't it? Shadow Milk Cookie: Unbelievable! You got it right again! RING DING DING!!! That Pure Vanilla Cookie knows his thing! I'm impressed, I must say!... Indeed, what is pure, unquestionable truth if not deceit...?

PV is always the one to answer all of Smilk's og quiz questions correctly (the ones he's allowed to answer at least lol, and the one that he wasn't allowed to answer was answered "wrong"), which not only establishes that they are to some capacity on the same wavelength from the very start not just because smilk is in the souljam lol so it isn't a result of his very pleasant stay at his tower /lh but also each time Smilk not only respects the answer, he also ignores the previously established (unquoted) punishment in favor of Pvs correct answer on the first one and on the second one compliment him, establishing at least some sort of report for Smilk to recognize

Also wanna take a quick moment on that second set of quotes, to further re-establish that 100% truth cannot exist w/o lies, and to elaborate to make me not seem insane here lmao, it's the same principle as "history is written by the victors" or however the phrase goes, objective truth does not necessarily equate to described truth, nor does a telling of truth automatically mean that the entire truth is revealed since that is quite difficult to do, whatever information you omit will change the way the information is ingested by the audience, and it doesn't have to be the case of lies by omission to our perspective either, you can describe you playing with your kid on a playground, a fully true statement, but you omitted that it was raining when you were outside, the omission I'd be hard-pressed to call a lie personally but it changes the story quite drastically. And even if you don't agree w this sentiment, at bare minimum that's the world that crk has established in these chapters to be true, and I think it is inferable that Smilk would find those omissions to be lies.

(Read aloud by pv): And thus did the all-devouring heart of darkness fall into slumber... The Beast-binding Rituatl of the Witches demands a great wisdom and even greater sacrifice. It much be conducted by someone who is ready to pay the price. This power lies hidden, far and out of reach, for you are forbidden from meddling with magic beyond you ken. Now, The Spire of All Knowledge stands without a master... where all knowledge began, and there it shall remain, as long as there is light. You who dares lay hand on the forbidden knowledge! After many a hardship, may you find the answer your seek... Pure Vanilla Cookie: The master of the Spire... It's about Shadow Milk Cookie, without a doubt. He could be there... Awaiting me... Without a doubt, having gained a physical form, he will pose a much greater threat... Our encounter can't be avoided. No matter if I fear it or not. The Beast are regaining their former power. All the more reason to face them and put and end to their evil. For the good of all Cookies, of the entire world!

The book planted specifically to trick the gang to go to the spire instantly gets snuffed out by PV, he notices instantly that the tower is Smilk's and its likely to contain the man himself, he goes not because he's tricked as Capple believes and relays in her overworld dialogue w smilk, but by his own volition (teehee)

At no point does he get legitimately tricked by Smilk specifically, all the times he does get tricked they're not by cookies with the eyes that are shown in the portraits to be a consistent feature or the flashbacks where the eyes are always eventually shown-- all the pain he goes through is either his own resolution (teehee) to be kind or his kindness being taken advantage of, but he is always in tune w Smilk

Bit annoyin to put the entire interaction down so there's the entire section lol [04 Young Shepherd Cookie], but the entire one of the wolfherd (which I don't think is Smilk, as explained earlier) is an example of him bein taken advantage of, he prioritizes kindness over being suspicious of the kid even though he has already acknowledged they are surely in Smilk's domain-- but once the kid is established to be safe & help is offered Pv then doesn't say a word and generally just acts surprised at the story, until the very end where the gang is talking amongst themselves recognizing that they've been tricked, First Strawberry, then Gingerbrave, then Wizard... But not Pv, he implicitly establishes to the team that kindness is more important than the lying, and recognizes internally that this is Smilk's presence in effect.

The story after is one that can be interpreted as Pv lying, cookie is dying before him, and he tells the cookie what I would argue to be ethical lies, which is that the cookie will be fine. The absolute last thing you want a dying patient to do is give up, you need them to follow your orders, and you need them to believe it will work, because if they don't that's just a self fulfilling prophecy and they are much more likely to go kaput. He suspected that it might be too late but not for a second did that stop him from trying, but since this was an artificial situation to begin w nothing was going to work, ofc. And once Pv finds out that this is another (non Smilk performed) trick and that his kindness has once been taken advantage of, he once again reinstates that kindness is more important and keeps wanting to help the cookie out.

And the final one after, the one with the towerkeeper, is harder at least for me to determine, keeping one of his eyes closed automatically puts him on the sus meeter as a truthful speaker, the way he presents his question as a riddle instead of a quiz yet formats and phrases his question the exact same as Smilk, praising Pvs answer, but also Pv not seeing through the trick if it was performed by Smilk, at most I'd argue that he may be the third closest connection Smilk has but that's very much flimsy and unbiased heh (unrelated but idk why white lily leaves except exclusively to make the story less crowded lol)

Pure Vanilla Cookie: We must look carefully for any clues on the ritual. ... Apple Faerie Cookie: Oh yes... It's as if everything we knew... was wrong! Pure Vanilla Cookie: Let us not jump to conclusions. Perhaps, it's another test... We must keep searching. ... Perhaps, it's a trick to make us stray from our path.

Pvs order of priority the moment of entering the spire is Kindness - Searching for the ritual, then Suspicion - is this another trick, then Confirmation - yes this is a trick, im recognizing this is a stretch which given the experiences w the wolfherd and the dying cookie is decently consistent w how he reacts to non smilk made lies

Pure Vanilla Cookie: The Light... of Truth...? This is... the Dark Side of the Moon... Another dream. ... ... What are you saying? Are you not... my guiding light? Light of Truth: Do not doubt me, Pure Vanilla Cookie...! I am the Light of Truth. Your old friend. All this time, I've been illuminating your path. Fore a long, long time... Even when you were smaller than your Cream Lamb.

Tbh to be frank idk what happens here lmao, he should be fully aware that the light is compromised and even recognizes that this is the moon, so absolutely smilk's influence here... yet he still believes the light to not be smilk...? But at least i think its reasonably inferable that the moment that the cream lamb is mentioned thats when Pv suses stuff out, I really dont know with this one gang, if ya wanna use this as the bullet to shoot my analysis down there's not much I can argue lmao

(The cards): Fshh... Gingerbrave: Huh? What are these cards? They have peculiar markings on them...! Pure Vanilla Cookie: These are tarot cards. Fortunate tellers use them to read someone's future.

Also I don't think Smilk pulls any tricks that Pv himself isn't previously aware of, the moment recluse in the inn brings out the tarot cards Pv immediately knows what they are, I don't think Pv was at all confused what chess was about lol

Fotune Teller Cookie: This way! ... Follow me, now! We're Safe. They won't reach us here ... ... No wonder. After all, this is the Spire of Deceit. Here, have a Jelly. Gingerbrave: Huh... Whoah! Thanks! But we have no time! We need to save our friend! Fortune Teller Cookie: No. You must go back. ... Don't you understand? You cannot win the battle against the Beast of Deceit. ... You'vebeen deceived by someone you trusted. You couldn't see the illusions of the Spire for what they were. So, tell me. How can you save your friend? ... ... If there's still a friend to save. *** Fortune Teller Cookie: Wait. ... I must ask one last question. Does your resolve remain strong? Are you sure you won't regret your choice, come what may? ... ... Follow me. You will only meet more foes down this path. I will show you a safer road.

Now when we're actually in the spire, we can also keep a closer eye on the fortune teller, since we know that he and Pv are on in the same, and we're not going to go into any details as to why teller cause we're instantly going to get into weird timey winey shenanigans lmao. The first what we see of teller once entering the spire is exclusively kindness, he is terrified of the beast but his priority is getting the people out of there. But once the gang absolutely refuses to follow his word, his kindness shifts, if he cannot ensure their safety, he will at least help them to the best of his ability.

Pure Vanilla Cookie: This place... Looks different but feels the same. As if it has revealed its true colors. I must get back to my friends. ...?! These portraits... They all depict Shadow Milk Cookie! They all look different, but it's unmistakably him!*** Pure Vanilla Cookie: This must be Shadow Milk Cookie when he was still called "The Fount of Knowledge"... Everyone is looking up to him. But there are some Cookies who chose... to deny reality. They rejected the bitterness of the world in favor of the sweetness of Deceit... He must have walked a solitary path... ***

Further establishment that the instant Smilk tries to pull off any trickery, although these just bein portraits and not him literally, Pv will instantly snuff it out. And also that enforcing that they're on the same wavelength, that once again when it isn't hittin too close to home he will relate to Smilk.

In the entirety of 18, 19 & 20, he immediately fights back against Smilk, multiple occasions pointing out that he's not telling the truth, being resolute (teehee, ok ill stop lol) in his own self, in a very few occasions faltering for just a step but then immediately regaining his ground. He's not stoic and he is struggling yes, but he has 3 things he believes in and he's not going down yet heh.

Also the next one 21, I'm not super confident if this fictional section lets Pv have any autonomy? But if we assume he does he once again prioritizes kindness over smilk/his tricks, as he heals a cookie even if it means smilk knows his location, he will 100% risk a fight or even dyin if it means he can save at least one other cookie.

And then we get the teller decrying how they never change and turning into recluse scene, or well, sorta, but shh we're not talking about the time travel its weird lmao-- where I mostly just want to mention the connection to the earlier point I made, the shaky interpretation, that the "reason" he turned into the recluse was because he had his eyes open to all the lies, he didn't close his eyes to the lies and let them in, clouding his judgement.

And now we've finally entered the latest chapter, where I should immediately apply our framework that we have to view the entire chapter through:

I'm letting this one tick down my image count, because it's that important. It's admitted at the very end, that this whole recluse thing was an act all along, that he tricked smilk, because Smilk can never lie to Pv and have him not notice it, that image I sent earlier? The one where pv is looking into the mirror and sees smilk? I think thats what he means when they "became one" and knew that smilk was lonely, so yes, before the fall, he knew-- He was still very fragile, very fickle, it wasn't like he was stoically going through the experience, very little would've convinced him to give up, but he knew there was a light to go towards and take advantage of, that tiny light was enough to keep him trucking, to keep him lying, to keep his resolution. I should also make it clear why I think the "becoming one" was that scene and not the scene where he becomes souljam of deceit x2, since I believe that's the scene that most people will assume that is referring to not the one I believe it to be, and tbh... i don't really have facts facts to back either of them up, neither of them sound like good candidates for being the scene, I don't think becoming 2 can be automatically instinctually argued as becoming 1 lol, hell idek what the (unquouted) "I saw your records." is referring to, but all I can do is present my case why it makes more sense for Pv to have been acting the whole time, instead of truly having given up and only the last couple minutes did this specific spark of hope work and not one of the dozen other ones.

So, with that down, once we go to the first part of the latest chapter, is that we know the consistent behaviour for Pv is to instantly snuff Smilk out, when Smilk is not involved he will go in the order of Kindness > Suspicion > Confirmation, his entire full and complete motivation + light at the end of the tunnel is his friends, his goal is to make smilk let his guard down (+ presumably make it out alive), and if at all possible in the slightest; befriend smilk. Alright? We're on the same page? Final chapter time heh. I will be going through the entirety of it in a summarizing fashion, adding in my own reasoning for the claim I made earlier and will quote things whenever I think it establishes things, instead of just the quotes being contextless.

First ep doesn't include any Pv, but it shows Smilk being more brazen w his lies, no longer are they sprinkled w truth, this ep is pretty much peak "villain", yes, even more villain than him gettin 2 deceit souljams, he is relishing in his first major step in victory, a footnote I make later in this diatribe because I cannot order these points to save my life, is that Smilk has long wanted Pv in his clutches, before Pv entered the spire did he intend to capture Pv.

So in ep 2 o with that accomplished he is joyous and flaunts his power to Pv. Pv however is silent and Smilk immediately tries to pry out information from him, guessing what could possibly be on his mind. Pv however has incredibly little interest in being swayed by the power display and nagging, his interest lies is solely within his friends, as although not directly confirmed word for word it seems after Pvs 'goodbye', his absolute rock bottom, Smilk took the gang away, the fear of them being harmed once again awakening Pvs kindness, even for only the tiniest smidgeon, I gotta reiterate this is incredibly fickle, if Smilk were to go hard on Pv rn he would probably give up entirely, the light can just barely rarely get Pv to act in accordance to pre-recluse in its current state. His plan to deceive Smilk isn't in process yet, he's mostly just processing what's happening to him and mostly letting his impulses guide him through the events. Smilk enjoys plucking the obvious weakpoint of Pv, but once again Smilk's nagging isn't his friends, so he doesn't really bother with it. Since Smilk is actively plucking said string, weakening that light, when he brings them out Pv doesn't respond, leading Smilk to poke a little further. A timeskip occurs where Smilk "toys" with the gang, whatever that means, and establishes that the only reason any of the gang is alive is due to his non-violent desires, where he then gets distracted ig? And grabs Pv, threatening to grab the souljam, Pv immediately recoiling and supposedly going to claim that its his, and since he's mostly on autopilot and Beat To Hell Mentally he gets pretty pissed, so Smilk's prodding finally gets an answer he likes out of Pv, but fully believes there is more boiling under Pvs skin so prods further to get him to lash out further. The gang interrupts trying to assure Pv to keep on fightin, and whilst Sapph tries to threaten them further with the legacy of Smilk, but that doesn't deter Brave at all. Smilk decides however to take the moment to, I think enter the souljam? Where he notices how unstable it is, who would've thunk it ikr, where its then established that his plan probably only extended to the recluse stage, after having a little bit of fun w recluse he would then take the souljam and move on, but because of how fragile it is he gets curious, where he then decides to see how far down he can go, the very next sentence admitting he changed his mind from whatever it was before.

They're then all taken to the river, where they just explain that truthtellers drown and those who "embrace deceit" don't, woot exposition lol. Pv however havin been rallied by his friends moments before being sent here but also still being pretty pissy snaps back, establishing his own autonomy, wherein Smilk does a wonderful job immediately undermining the tiniest pushback he got lmao. Oh I should probably mention its the choice of him or his friends right? So yeah, kindness wins out, without a word he chooses himself and heads straight into the river. And as we know earlier, his friends is the stated reason why he got out of the river, and I believe once he gets out of the river, after maybe hearing all of the confident blabberin from Smilk and definitively the blasted hoorays from after he re-emeges, is when he gets his plan to trick Smilk is in action.

His eyes being closed the moment he emerges from the water has nothing to do with that conclusion, just btw /j, lh

I do think he did hear what they were saying when he was under the water, as asking "... Are you satisfied now?" directly replies to their previous disappointment, in finding him just drowning instantly to be anticlimactic, with the ensuing excitement as I previously explained ensures. And just to make it a little clearer, I believe this is the moment where he sets his plan to deceive Smilk, yk, perhaps, oh, idk, he "embraces deceit" and that allowed him to complete the requirements laid out by the river?

The chess scene is where things get really, really intersting for Smilk, but I think I'm going to put that in the earlier section, and leave any Pv relevant parts here. So yes since you're reading the finished product you would've already known my dissection of the chess game, teehee.

As the rules get explained and Wizard questions the "No lies" rule, Pv seems to be implied to be physically repulsed by the idea, but doesn't say anything, since Smilk notices that he doesn't want to play the game. The coin gets flipped, the coin is rigged, Smilk goes first. Ik I mentioned this quote earlier in the two sides of a coin section, "Aren't we like two peas in a pod? I get that a lot! Heh. Sometimes it's hard to tell us apart!", but I want to elaborate a tiny bit on the point, because this is the first time we ever see Smilk cheat, which yes I talked about earlier but this is about Pv lol, he deceives and lies, but he hasn't ever broken any implicitly or explicitly stated rules before this point, so I think it's one of 3 options, the least meaningful one is that he is talking about how they look similar, you simply mistook my face for Pv's how silly of you, or the two remaining options, that Smilk also sees Pv as a cheater or re-enforcing previous information where he believes Pv to be the biggest liar in the world, and tbh I think it's probably a mix of both. Afterwards the comment about the lack of chess pieces arises, and ofc the friends get turned into pieces, which he doesn't seem to react a ton to either. Though if I can extrapolate a bit farther than I think is reasonable for the claim I've made, I think he is just paying attention to what Smilk is saying, as we also know that Pv knows, that Smilk is full of suspicions, so if you want to trick the master of lies, you really need to know what he truly believes in. Now he no longer is just defensive and trying to protect his own resolution, he is now trying to calculate what Smilk's truth is, which in turn makes him sturdier-- But ofc only like, by 1% maybe, he ain't recovering for a while lmao. Pv says his first words this entire ep when he answers Smilk's proposed easy question, what is a lie. And then the second answer also doesn't bring a ton of insight into Pv, but the third does, as its designed to provoke Pv. The original question is "How do we judge what is right?" which gets instantly contorted into absolute nonsense, mans a weasel here lmao, and it instead turns into a question of "When you blew up the souljams (I think is what happened) for what you believed to be the greater good, would you do that again?" to which Pv denies, leading to the piece getting stuck some more.

It seems the implied answer is that because Pv adamantly and continuously refuses to give another answer, Smilk and then continuously get free moves, though the first thing we see is him being quiet some more. Though his souljam (wherever it is lol) is physically reacting in some manner, as once again it is reacting to his friends. After having been mostly quiet this entire match, and only showing much of any stronger emotion by being surprised at Smilk's weaseling but quickly regained his composure, he finally snaps at Smilk again, when White Lily, his best friend, is brought up, and havin to think about her really aint makin him feel too good lol. But after being nagged about it by Smilk he seems to snap out of it, and returns to quiet fuming. Smilk pivots then once again, to establish a point he has been making, which is that everything is Pv's fault, which Pv has now seemed to have caught up on as Smilk's intention, as he replies "... You're right. Perhaps... It's entirely my fault..." with a totally not suspicious annoyed expression on the model, which causes Smilk to immediately burst into laughter and ecstatic. He goes on this tirade about how pathetic Pv is, that he's not the cookie of deceit and how Smilk is not the ultimate truth, but Pv as usual doesn't say much. Smilk then at least sounds like he pulls out his trump card, since Smilk has now thoroughly broken down Pv's perception of truth so that in turn obviously means Pv's point of existance, yk, truth, as pointless and a lie in of itself, shouldn't Pv regret his life for having followed this false ideology? But Pv here has his own ace card to play, noticing the weakness in Smilk's ideology Pv refuses to answer, if he's the cookie of deceit now, which as established earlier, means they can cheat, that means Pv can now cheat, and proceeds to immediately save his friend from immediate peril whilst laughing maniacally to hide the true intent of his actions. This act seems to have taken the wind out of him and he spends the little while recovering whilst Smilk is laughing harder than ever before. After recovering from his laughing fit he commends Pv for not being foolish and surprising him. Unbeknownst to Smilk, he is revealing his own hand, that Smilk is lowering his guard.

Now with the chess game over, Wizard seems awfully eager for the next activity, where we immediately get a great quote from Smilk.

Shadow Milk Cookie: Cookies fear what they don't understand. Always so quick to fill that void with the first thing that fits their belief system! Anything, really!

Given that's entierly true for Mystic, reasonably true for Sbice and technically true for Smilk, I have a feeling I might know at least a little bit how the other two beast's will work lol. Once again, the story repeats, game is introduced, this time it's cards, and friends get in trouble, whoopsies. This time however Pv has had enough, accidentally regressing the upper hand he had gotten from the previous game, whoopsies lol, where he snaps at Smilk to stop involving the friends, and that this is between only them-- he couldn't contain his desire for kindness, and seeing them threatened so often was getting to him too much. Smilk with this reveal of weakness keeps his cards (teehee) incredibly close to his chest, getting more reinforcement that the friends are the ticket to his broken jam. This game along with the chess game is also all about telling the truth, and if they "lie", whatever that means for tarot cards, they get shredded for it. I saw someone like yesterday talk about how interesting the cards answers were, but I'm running on the finest fumes Adhd can give, so I don't remember any of that whatsoever lmao; they should probably be a neighbouring post if this guy doesn't get shadowbanned for being a billion words long. The cards then threaten to do bodily functions cookies shouldn't be able to do but we aren't going on that tangent either lmao. Smilk places all the upset cards out, and asks Pv to pull out the desired cards, who initially refuses but quite quickly folds (teehee, feck I said I would stop that lol) and picks some anyways, where the gang loudly try to rig the cards, to which Smilk just finds cute & pathetic. It turns out that by the force of some kind, most likely Smilk himself, the terrible unfortunate cards are consistently drawn every single time for Pv who doesn't react much, and after trying over and over he decides to instead draw for himself, which then something physically occurs to Pv? I'm not sure what he just hurks over for a second and then doesn't get followed up upon lol. After Smilk rigged his own tarot cards, he then lets Pv try again, to the absolute befuddlement of his entourage, but Pv doesn't accept the offer, not wanting to let Smilk win. But since Smilk for some reason really wants Pv to practice the cards he doesn't go very hard on his prodding this time, instead throwing out some empty threats and focusing on pivoting to showing Pv his room so that he can totally go practice his tarots in there instead, of course establishing that escape is no option. And the final panel is Pv being confused about something, but I'm not sure if it's because of Smilks handing of cards over to Sapph or if Capple is that loud in her anger.

I'm gonna skip most of the Capple drama, I'm mostly confused why the writers wrote her that way? I don't really read it as out of character inherently but it's just, weird? Why'd you do that lol. But the duo does talk about how weird it is for Smilk to behave this way. Also not sure what that really tells about any of the people involved, but Smilk has not informed the duo adequately how he feels about Pv, so they just think he's emotionally no different than any normal cookie, instead of, yk, pining /lh,

After that weirdness occurred, Smilk threatens to murder Capple, so ngl I'm not gonna guess they've got a great personal relationship together.

Then just. filler I think? I'm not sure why we learn the functions of deceit, it doesn't really seem pertinent. Might just be crk wanting to throw in some ideas they had idk lol

Some more filler but then jumpscare Smilk has a curiosity he wants to fulfill, since this entire time his actions could be in theory completely dictated by his very presence, yes? So what happens when Smilk isn't around, will Pv crack?

Pv however, believes he still has the upper hand, he's now in that final step of that plan, he has to make Smilk believe that he won, but that does mean being technically mean to his friends, which he does apologize for later heh. He doesn't actively aggro his friends though, he just keeps emphasizing his "loyality" to Smilk, with a pertinent point being.

Truthless Recluse: I think I'm beginning to understand him. And... it fills me with fear and self-loathing. Wizard Cookie: Shadow Milk Cookie thinks he made you join his side! He thinks he's won! Truthless Recluse: ... He is not wrong.

Besides him describing Smilk's innermost feelings almost to a T, when your own friends tell you to your face your plan is working, I think you're doin an alright job w your deception lol, He goes on a long monologue about how much he doesn't care and how he's the greatest liar ever. However, something goes awry, really awry, in fact, it wasn't just me analysing the scenes who noticed, the friends in fact noticed Pv's behaviour. They start questioning his character, which instantly breaks Pv's character, and then they list out all the actions Pv has committed to keep his friends safe this entire time, whilst struggling to find the words as he has no good answer as to why he would've saved them if he truly, genuinely, didn't care for them anymore, if they really meant nothing to him, if he truly gave up all the way back, why are any of his friends alive right now?-- they bombard him with the truth of his actions, where he then gives up trying to talk back. After a long pause he instead brings out the tool he knows that Smilk, will enjoy, the tool that will cement his connection with Smilk, that neither party will be able to tell him that he's lying right now, the tarot cards, and seals his friends away.

Sapph comes in to collect them, where Pv acts his cruellest, for the first time actually dismissing his friends completely, which I absolutely can see the argument that this is proof that he truly doesn't care about them. I would however argue that Pv was overcompensating, he knows he will never harm them, and so far that has been entirely within his control, Smilk so far has never harmed the gang directly so Pv has had plenty of proof that turning them in will likely not endanger the gang, keeping the gang around would also harm his deception extraordinarily so, super mega so, it might genuinely completely ruin his entire trick, if he showed any mercy at all in the slightest to his friends might tip Smilk off that his kindness has been growing as time has gone on, not diminishing, but because of their grilling of him he was terrified of the possibility, so like i said i believe, he overcompensated, surely there's no way Smilk thinks I'm lying if I had no interest at all whatsoever in the slightest of accepting their offer. I am so mean and evil, Smilk won't suspect a thing and my friends won't be harmed.

Smilk, which I believe was implied to be floating outside of the window spying on Pv, knows that "he failed to get his friends to leave", so twists that into Pv now missing his friends, and proposes a solution, one that Pv can already tell what said solution is. Smilk is excited once more that Pv is becoming more like him, not only does he use the same tricks, not only can he now do tarots, but he now knows what games they're going to play.

Then they just, participate in the game, Brave accidentally spoils the ending by saying he knows their friends wouldn't turn on them, I wonder who that could be about /lh. Smilk starts prodding Pv again, who wordlessly rolls the dice. After a couple rounds Smilk comments on how boring this game is, and Pv explains that they've basically got infinite resolution, which is either a really bad play by him, or Pv's intimate understanding that Smilk's guard is so low that he knew that Smilk would do exactly what he'd do, which is brush it off and ignore it. The mistake that truly happens though is not limited to Pvs, the friends call out to him and tell him to stay determined, and Pv trying his best to keep his stoicism his souljam struggles to lie the same, leading to Smilk noticing that the string can still be plucked, and decides to see what happens if it snaps.

Smilk has to some capacity restrained the gang, expressing tiredness from their lack of appreciation, imposing the power over his land, reiterating his strength, all to turn to Pv, and ask him instead for a solution to these pesky cookies, who asks what he wants him to do, but Smilk insists that Pv should have to make the choice, surprising Pv. Which then leads to Smilk revealing the optoins, as usual, kill the gang or give over the souljam. This is admittedly one of the only points of contention with the claim I made ages ago at this point lol, how would he change the color of the souljam if he wasn't really losing his truth here, the biggest stretch I could give is that he's not abandoning his truth, he is instead prioritizing deceit. He is building up to this moment after all, he knows that Smilk is currently at his lowest defence right now, so convincing him he is an ally through becoming the thing he knows Smilk wants, becoming a cookie of deceit, seems like a logical thought process for him to have, I just, really don't know if that'd convert the color of his jam though lol, maybe its excusable enough that it only converts halfway. He then hands over the half white souljam over to Smilk, who immediately pulls the rug under Pv, because he is pissed off at the gang for being such a nuisance this entire time, and he also knows that its the remaining tether between Pv becoming exactly like him, and off the tower they go, devastating Pv.

He pleads for answers, but Smilk just taunts him, and brings back the ace from ages ago, he's been planting the seeds for Pv to believe that Smilk is innocent after all, this is him cashing it in. He reveals his guard wasn't actually that low, and that he had noticed the fact the gang are still alive. I'm not sure how to describe the intent of his diatribe, ig just quoting it doesn't hurt, he's snappy about it at least.

Shadow Milk Cookie: What was it? Your petty self-righteousness? Foolishness? Sense of Guilt? What was it that made your Soul Jam ring like a thousand bells?! Oh, I couldn't stand this annoying sound of whatever was left of your feeble will that kept resonating and resonating throughout the entire place!

The reason why idk how to describe it is because he then shifts over to gleefulness, where he explains the transition from simply wanting the soul jam to wanting to see what happened when he prodded him. Pv however, instantly picked up on what Smilk was putting down, and instantly repeating exactly word for word what Smilk wants to hear. He then shows the souljam is now completely white, which since it has been in the hands of Smilk and we know the souljam can change colors if the beast gets a hold of it I see no reason why that isn't a good enough explanation to cover the rest of my back lol. Pv however, still wants his shiny rock please and thank you, because he's still enacting his plan, his souljam is his, because it is now the souljam of deceit.

Truthless Recluse: Is this what you wanted? Or is it even better? Instead of one Soul Jam of Knowledge, you will have two Soul Jams of Deceit. And me, forever by your side.

Mans knows exactly the words Smilk wants to hear to a T, mans gauging how correct he was in his reply lmao, also mans says "we are meant to be together" and smilk does :D. Oh and also reiteration of his desire to control Pv. Pv also instantly checks how much power he actually gained from either himself converting a little bit to deceit or having smilks powers infused into the souljam after holding onto it lmao. After smilk gets like a minute to brag Pv immediately has won, his plan succeeded, Pure Vanilla Cookie successfully tricked Shadow Milk Cookie.

Smilk, realizing what has just happened, goes through a lot of stages of emotions, first dismay that he cannot control his other realm, then anger at Pv, specifically regarding that he was tricked, making him sound very hypocritical I wonder why he would be hypocritical what about his character would indicate that he would be bothered by being tricked i dunnooo /lh, then almost uncontrollable rage as he demands the souljam where he rushes pv with anger, then surprise, and i believe for a final moment awe, then pv decides to stab his souljam which is a choice for sure lol. I think the way I would read it requires us to tangent into his awakened form, so uh, tangent time.

Pv's awakened form is all about recognizing the importance of truth and deceit, thanks for coming to my ted talk. ok well no in seriousness the most important part is that he has smilk's eyes in his cape thing, both opened and closed ones, an absolute shitton of his design takes from smilk, his room has keys to smilk's locks, he has moon decorations that are smilks theme whilst he also has sun ones for pv, he has scrolls which is in both his Sage & Fount outfits are important design elements. His awakened form also has a couple lines that signify the importance of both truth and deceit, "You can learn a thing for(?) two from Deceit", "Truth and Deceit may be inseperable...". There are also far more dialogue than pre awakened of his desire for friendship & connection for others, since it only has 2 compared to awakened's 7, friendship, determination and resolution are the primary things that made him awaken into compassion.

There we go, tangent over, with that established, since he stabbed his souljam, do we think it could possibly be direct symbolism that he's breaking the original meaning of his souljam, that it's not just the souljam of truth, but the souljam of both truth and deceit, as both are important to him now? Just a thought? Maybe possible sorta? Anyways back to the rest of the ep lol, he goes through anime transformation sequence where he goes through every aspect of his life, sploshes through milk, then gets ribbons of the yellow/white of truth and the dark blue/eyes of deceit, really hammering home that both aspects are intrinsic to his existence as awakened. He then gets his memories fixed, he describes them being fixed to some capacity as his choices, so regaining the autonomy that smilk so badly wanted but could never once from start to finish ever manage to control. Smilk responds accordingly by calling him a traitor, where Pv's first words to smilk is (paraphrased) "I will embrace deceit, I will accept doubt, everything holds answers, don't you agree mr knowledge man. we can be poggies together duder" which smilk is not a fan of whatsoever, "A lie shall vanquish a lie!" Which is just a description of what he did lol. I think I hit my tired mark, Ill try to stay coherent

Next ep is filler resolution from the first ep

Then Smilk is pissed, but pv doesnt care, his nr 1 action is kindness after all, and especially now when he has awakened and embraced deceit he can see through smilk even more than he already could, he has no reason to fear smilk whatsoever, smilk just laughs in his face to pvs confusion, smilk recognizes his power imbalance and tries to take advantage of that the friends are dead, but teller came back and saved them, leaving smilk with no leverage at all anymore, he is lesser than pv in every single way now, then pv explains how there can be 2 pvs, pv prevents one of the tarot cards but i still dk what any of those cards mean so cant help you there on what he's on about, they fuse together into one, and then smilk comes in pissed cause no one is paying attention to him, he so desperately is clawing for any kind of upper hand

but pv just, isnt phased by it whatsoever, once again because he embraced deceit he is twice the cookie smilk is, and reaches out to smilk, he tries to gain the upper hand again but it doesnt work, pv explains that friendship poggies which smilk finds dumb. Pv then asks why did you do all that shit today, im simply curious dude, smilk tries to mask, pv sees right through it cause of the aforementioned records which told him that smilk was ecstatic when the souljams touched tips i mean deceit, smilk realizing his truest feelings is just bein splayed out for everyone to se shuts down further, but pv pushes through and tries to find common ground, but as someone who has had everyone turn their back to him and then spent lifetimes lying shockingly struggles w friendship, so this connection shit is so inane to him he cant help but just break out into laughter and desperately claw at reasons why it wouldnt work, that he already has his spire, and pv must just be dumbass, but pv aint havin none of it, if you truly didnt give a shit you wouldnt have done all of this effort bestie, but smilk doesnt like that pv is still right so tried once again to flat failure to gain the upper hand, where we then return to all the way back in the beginning, we finish off the loop, pv explains how they became one, and he could sense how lonely smilk was, which smilk reacts violently too, this is hitting insanely close to home and he'd rather not have him keep airing out his feelings please and thank you, pv does not, "Yes, Shadow Milk Cookie. No one else but me can truly understand you. We share the same Soul Jam. We can understand each other like no one else can. You don't have to be lonely... I'm right here. Please. Let me be your... friend.", which for the first second ever this entire ep, doesn't reveal his secret feelings, doesnt accidentally get brought to the surface, but truly cracks his defense, even if its only the tiniest of cracks, Smilk hesitates at the notion, he thinks about it, genuinely, for just a mere moment, which as you can imagine he doesn't like that it just happened and becomes violent again, raising his defenses a billion times as all petulant bullies do and screams his head off and we bonk him heh. pv still outclasse smilk, he has his powers, there is nothing smilk can do that pv cant do, so smilk is at most just bein a whiny baby here, so pv tries again to connect, but smilk is, lets say, not in the right headspace for this conversation, and is rude lol. He then runs away and the first thing pv says is functinoally "ill get to see him again :)"

Now, after aaaaaaaaaallllll that, what have we learnt about pv and his likelihood of forgiving smilk? I at least feel like the odds are the he has already forgiven smilk, that smilk doesn't actually have much that needs to be forgiven as pv was playing along and that he will choose kindness every time. yeah im gonna say its probably decently likely that pv's biggest lesson in practice is determination, he will persevere because his friends are always worth it-- and no intent of not extending his compassion to someone he has already embraced and intimately understands.

also ik it's irrelevant cause it's not talking about the facts, but remember when i mentioned way back at the beginning of the post that I made comments about the stories in discord?

That was my live first reaction to the story at that point, so unless I'm a massive untrusting moron, I think at least I can say there's reasonable precedent to believe that he wasn't at least intended to have truly 'fallen'.

...

Okay FINE I'll talk about why the time travel is weird lmao. It's cause it's not time travel xd I think its the grandfather paradox in play? Because if they are indeed the very same Pv, then their endgame shouldnt be capable of changing, there should be no "real" failed recluse and then our awaken pv, they should both be failed or both be awakened, it turns out im too tired to explain how the order of events works, but pv cant get awakened w/o teller, and teller cant know to go to awakened when there is no awakened yet, yes i did write this all in one night thats adhd for you, so the couple options that are available are:

It's an AU not timetravel, meaning all Teller scenes are irrelevant to any analysis of Pv, they lived different lives, it is irrelevant.

It's entirely made by Smilk to trick the gang, which makes the least amount of sense cause he would've then knowingly constructed his own downfall given he should have knowledge of the awakening if past, present and future all were taking place at the same time.

Or the one I find the likeliest, its an externalization of Pvs doubts manifested, it was never real and wasn't any time travel, that explanation was a lie like most parts of the tower, but his fears are real, and in a space that represents the multitude perspectives of truth, so literally just like Mystic, his Resolution and Apathy separated, but also like Mystic the Apathy part is really bad at doin their job and was actually really passionate about their friends lmao

Now let me live in peace ignorin the stupid time travel some more lol

They should have the capacity to believe they are wrong and thus capable of learning to any degree.

Shadow Milk Cookie: What's happening... Why am I not regaining my power...? The guardian is gone... So why is the blasted tree still standing? Why doesn't Pure Vanilla Cookie... obey?! ***

This isn't evidence of him actually acknowledging that he is wrong in the moment, but it's the foreshadowing of his conclusion, as you surely know by getting to this point lol. He continuously gets presented one lesson over and over and over: Lies cannot modify truth, and it cannot control it. It can manipulate the way knowledge is framed, but it does not modify the truth in any way. And although this lesson will be hammered in more once the foreshadowed part comes around, it's absolutely not a sentiment that's meaningless once you've completed the latest chapter heh.

I'm rapidly losing my capacity to be coherent, but the entirety of Pv's ascension is fighting everythin he knows about, he got tricked, he underestimated truth, he became weaker than pv, he lost to this gang, his spire got destroyed-- the question here is now when that has all been smashed, will we get to him in time or is he just going to reinforce his desperation to repair his status, though given pv's acceptance of deceit i dont expect whatever reperation occurs is not going to be particularly weak to a guy who goes 'yeah well im everything you want to be and i want to be your friend'

Felt like there should at least be an honorable mention for the times where Smilk really starts showing their desire to keep Pv around pre-latest chapter, that once again this wasn't a final minute thing. I should extra elaborate that does not mean that all of these are healthy, appropriate or even definable as 'not bad'. This is mostly the toxic part of toxic yaoi lmao

Shadow Milk Cookie: Eugh, I see you're still so deadfully, painfully, unbreaably... "you"!!!... Thinking much about me these days? ... Pretty cosy, innit? Makes you feel right at home! Why don't you stay for another day? Or... FOREVER! Sit back, relax, and watch my sinister plans unfold from the comfort of your very own prison! Oh? What am I saying? Silly little m! You've always been here, and you always will be! *** Shadow Milk Cookie: Indeed, all this time, you've been my most treasured marionette! ***

And the very final section, is there any evidence contradictory to his ability to be reformed? Is he particularly stubborn about something that would hinder his ability to change his perspective?

And I mean, besides throwing a childish tantrum at the end because he got scared of intimacy? Ig there's one,

Shadow Milk Cookie: Cookies fear what they don't understand. Always so quick to fill that void with the first thing that fits their belief system! Anything, really! Ahh, that would make Knowledge simply the collective agreement on the strongest beliefs, wouldn't you agree? Allow me to demonstrate with these cards.

Which yeah, is pretty antithetical to the idea of knowledge as a virtue, well done smilk you've got 1 whole argument as to why you might struggle with redemption, I'll let you know in 5-10 business years whether that out-stumps all the rest of this dissertation lmao.

My tired gang finishing up last section, don't see naything else that's antithetical to truth or knowledge having popped up at all

Now with all of that out of the way, phew-wee, we can talk about the skin a little bit. We know the skin isn't his Fount of Knowledge time, cause first of all the sage is never referred to as that lol, but secondly they don't look alike, the reason I mentioned the hiding of the past thing on the other two is that Smilk proudly shows off his past and deliberately brings Pv to it, so we know what the fount looks like, and it ain't the sage

So if not the past, what then? Tbh I'm not super confident, if I wanted to be a giddy lil fangirl I could argue that it's the future, that it is what redeemed Smilk will look like, that as the story progresses we will more and more see Smilk, though in all honesty it does just feel like an AU version, he does say "They cookie of truth? That's-a-me" which, yk, wasn't his og virtue and probably won't be his redeemed one either, the story told within talks of a recluse that doesn't exist, the one in the main questline never talks about any mountains, it just feels like a swap au, nothing more. Whatever the option though, I still want to make some inferences, though I do very much recognize that because we don't know who Sage is to the canon that all of this is pretty baseless, but since we're here anyways, why not lol.

The biggest inference is that Truthful Smilk & Present Smilk aren't all that different in behaviour at all "Do I really need to spell out everything? Come on, think!", they're both cheeky "Now now, I'm not like those other Academics", they're both playful "Ooooh, are you proposing a debate? Alright, but no backsies!"-"Think I'm wrong? Very well, present your case!", they both have their convictions "Admitting your ignorance is the first step towards the Truth", they both tease "Why does everyone try so hard to hide their ignorance? Tsk!", they sing-song "The arts, academia, technology, magic...Truth exists everywhere!", both really want to show off their stuff "There you are! Time for some magic!"-- like the only practical difference between the two in their character is what they're believing in, the only other thing i can think of is that sage tends to just make statements a lot more often, thats it. So, going on quite the decent limb, I don't think he needs a full personality or character rewrite to still work as smilk.

Finally, after 12 hours of straight grinding on this: In conclusion, do I think he's currently redeemed, as I'm a bit scared to post this so I feel the need to assure my stance? No, I don't, nor was that my claim. Do I think it will inherently make it a better story if he was redeemed? Not inherently no, but I think it absolutely can be a good story, I don't think it's doomed to fail or doomed to inexplicably ruin the characters involved automatically. By saying I believe he can be redeemed and to some capacity would like to see it, am I excusing all his terrible/abusive behaviour that i skipped over for this analysis as I believe it to be irrelevant to my case? One of us has the wrong definition of redemption then if you think that to be what I'm saying lmao, cause what I'm aware atoning for your sins and crimes are required to be redeemed, a whiplash "I tried to murder you and then suddenly two seconds later I'm nice now" is a bad redemption story at all times and has nothin to do w smilk-- ofc it'd require growth, recognition, self reflection & consequences, ofc his past behaviour would have to be atoned for in whatever way the victims see fit. Do I think I am undermining Pv's experiences/trauma regarding Smilk if he were to be redeemed? Not only do I feel like i adequately listed out the reasons why I don't think he present day canonically doens't hold a grudge towards smilk in the slightest, i would also not think smilk or any of the beasts to be redeemed w/o their other half also accepting them. Do I expect crk to handle the redemption in a good way? No lol

#also its so unrelated im hiding it in the tags #capple says specifically #“all it took was one crunchy bite of the apple of deceit! thats how smilk brought me into this world”#which is why the father/daughter dynamic exists #mild pet peeve of mine when ppl are confused by that point #she says he made her thats pretty father like lol #yes you can disagree that its a bad relationship dynamioc if youd like #but dont act like the fandom is the insane one for seeing the connection at all lol #anyways #shadow milk cookie #crk #cookie run kingdom #mystic flour cookie #pure vanilla cookie #doesnt have to be read as ship-y #but i still think the people who would like to see this are #shadownilla #“my creator smilk” is also what she said directly after #if anyone is curious google docs says its 31 pages and 17k words hf reading lol

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