#this interview is from like after 4x05

[sunnydaleherald]

The Sunnydale Herald Newsletter, Monday, April 14th

RILEY: Not much for bench-warming. BUFFY: No, you made the squad. You ... threw that vampire like he was a ... teeny-weeny little vampire. RILEY: (grinning) Hey, wanna go again? Come on, I bet this place is just teeming with aerodynamic vampires.

~~Out of My Mind~~

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[sapphicambitions]

when i first read this interview I read Hale’s tone as “yeah of course i love it too, but the show doesn’t have the fucking guts to actually do it” and now i realize that was correct

[whateverthedragonswant]

thinking about buck and chris in the tsunami and buck helping build chris an adapted skateboard and buck being the one to sit next to chris and tell him his dad might not be coming home and eddie putting buck in his will and them having ONE SCENE together in all of 6a?like i 100% get wanting to focus on other relationships, but at this point it truly doesn’t make sense for there to be almost no buckley-diaz scenes because we KNOW how important they are to each other, romantic or not.

Hey, Anon!

I totally get what you're saying and I do agree but I also think they're still trying to show us in ways that Buck and Eddie are still very important to one another while we go through the first half of the season. They've had more than one scene together but they usually have someone else around. I think that's what you're referring to, right? The missing heart-to-hearts that they usually have? I completely get that this is throwing a lot of people off because it's not their usual pattern. Even when KR took over last season, we still got heart-to-hearts with both of them every so often. But here's the thing, I think we're going to get some of those back in 6B because if Buck does have a breakdown or he reaches a breaking point, there's no way Eddie wouldn't be part of that landscape. Because Eddie was so heavily involved in the story line two seasons ago:

Annnnd since we know the Buckley parents are returning and they're most likely it has to do with this story line for Buck this season, it stands to reason that at some point Eddie will be returning this for Buck:

And I am absolutely certain because this season so far we've seen:

Eddie reassuring Buck like he always has when Buck was worried about Karen (and this is definitely Eddie doing that by looking at Buck as he begins to speak when Buck wasn't even looking to him, he was saying it for everyone but more specifically Buck's benefit which is why we then get the looksie loo between them after he says it). Something he did in 3x16 about possibly losing contact with the firefam. Something he tried to do in 4x04 and 4x05.

And then we also get:

While it was kind of Buck and Eddie to do this for that person, isn't it weird that out of the 118, they're the only two? When you know if they had asked, Chim, Bobby, and Hen would have helped? And isn't it weird that the random people they bring with them are two men and two women, and the framing shows each man and each woman walking in together from both sides, behind Eddie, Buck, and the homeowner? They're showing this because that 5x18 scene was a big deal for these two, just like the will scene in 4x14 like you mentioned. But they also show Buck and Eddie in two different cars arriving (when they could have carpooled, especially given gas prices at that point lol) because they're on their own separate journeys, but they're going to arrive in the same place: together and back to their close relationship but this time knowing what they want and being all the stronger for it, stronger to the point that they can even help others like this homeowner. But overall one important thing: a solid, united team. And for any work partnership or friendship, this is one hell of a scenic route to go on to patch either of those up, when it won't lead somewhere past that.

So I get what you're saying and it is a bit of an odd route to take but I have faith that it will all pay off in the end. To me, as an amateur writer, it makes sense. If Buck breaks down, I don't see how anyone could justify Eddie not being there for him during that. Especially when they keep bringing to our attention that Eddie knows something is up with Buck (before learning about the donation), Eddie still knows things about Buck that no one else does (and vice versa as we saw play out in 6x09), and these two are still very much a unit, even if it's not happening physically on screen at the moment. And while I may not always agree with KR's talking points in certain interviews, I do think she's going in the direction she was told to do, just in her own way. And while it might not be the way we like, one thing they haven't gotten rid of is the story telling they're doing through other devices that films and television shows always use. Right now, KR doesn't need the GA to see Buddie, not overtly. Once it gets closer and Buck goes through what he has to, things will become less subtle. (and I have tbh, I don't even think it's really all that subtle anymore) But I still see the same story they've been telling the past few years, since season 3, and I don't see any indication that Buddie won't happen.

Like one of my other anons said, Buck spending time with other 118 members & Eddie doing the same...this is all a precursor to them eventually getting together. Once they do get together, they'll still have scenes with the firefam separately, just like we see with Hen and Karen, Chim and Maddie, Bobby and Athena, etc.

And I get what you mean about no Buckley-Diaz scenes butttt we did get that one scene in the season premiere and that is SO important because the first episode of a season always sets up what the main focal points are going to be for that season's story line of the show. And while we don't get anymore physical scenes with them, we do see Eddie and Buck discussing Chris' crush, Eddie asking Buck if Chris has told him any secrets, etc. It's still very present in the story line. And on top of that, since this season is about Buck finding out what he wants (and the donation comes into play), it makes sense that the Buckley-Diaz isn't the focus right now (scenes with the firefam or not) because Buck's relationship with both Eddie and Chris are solid. It's not coming into question right now; it's a given. Since Buck is going on this journey (and Eddie is doing his own as well), it makes sense that we don't see as much Chris/Buck or family scenes. We might get some more in 6B but I'll be honest with you, I wouldn't even be surprised if we only got one, if any at all.

Any other time we've gotten Buckley-Diaz scenes, it is always in relation to one of the three's emotional landscapes in the story. The show just worked hard to separate Eddie and Christopher so Eddie can find out what he wants for himself. They're now working to help Buck figure out what he wants. Christopher is doing well and the theme of his and Eddie's relationship this season is him getting older and not needing Eddie as much. It all makes sense then that we're not seeing the B-D unit as much this season.

But I feel you, Anon, I do. I get that this is frustrating for some. I partially blame that on the streaming culture we currently have because not only have we been waiting for this to happen for a long time, it's the waiting for weekly episodes, the winter break, the interviews in between, that kills us, too. I myself just recently gave up on a show that I regret starting because I care about the characters so much but the writing is questionable at best (which puts it very nicely) and they're more concerned with fanservice than they are good storytelling it feels like. I tried to have patience, to hang in there, trying to see what we were being told through every single device used, but I got so frustrated I said 'fuck it, I'll wait and binge when it's all said and done. I'm wasting too much time waiting and being frustrated about this so fuck it.' And it takes a lot for me to do that but getting back to the point, I get it if some people want to wait until it does happen, or that they can stream the full season once it's over. And I get the frustration, but I promise, I really do believe Buddie is on its way. It's just taking the long (scenic) route. Which is completely characteristic of slow burns but you also have networks and shows that love to milk the crap out of something like this, too. Whatever keeps people coming back to watch every week. But I get it all. I hope in this ramble somewhere I'm making sense lol.

So my very long point is to hang in there, Anon. It's coming, and I think once 6B airs in its entirety, it will all make sense. I think even rewatching all of 6A will even help pull the puzzle pieces together and all of the connections will be seen that much more. I plan to do that myself once I get some time.

I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, Anon!!! <3

[handonhaven]

Aye bestie❤cause ur opinion comforts and claims me❤..

So you must have seen Danielle interview by now and already the hosie's b twisting it up , Dani said "You know, it's complicated. My personal feelings obviously are very different from how Hope feels", the hosie's twisting it up saying that Danielle hates handon and putting words in her mouth she and hope are two different person so obviously she's gonna have a different feeling or opinion, it keeps getting to me tho maybe shes tired of them to how she was speaking ion know but until Danielle confirms she hates them am not gonna let it get to me.

She didn't say much about handon this season more than there short of endgame material, she also said they are gonna be separated for awhile mainly because they both need growth and time to heal which is true . I really wanna see landon storyline this season and how he handles his trauma and I want hope to help him but they gonna separat them for a while, am gonna cry so hard for landon am also excited to see hopes storyline as well and how she handles her tribid side and i heard she's gonna push away her friends and landon or anybody shes close to. Do u think both hope and landon gonna push away each other and in the end they will they be okay and be stronger or closer?? Am excited to see and also scared.

Aww really? 🥺❤️ I‘m so glad to hear that! I don’t comfort myself at all. 😂 Yes I did see the interview but I’m avoiding H*sies, though I can imagine what they’re saying. Yeah, idk what Danielle meant by that, but I’m trying not to assume too much, and H*sies should do the same. I’d hope Danielle doesn’t hate Handon but maybe she does want a break from Handon stuff idk. And yes, she said both good things and bad things about Handon. I’m glad that she talked about them being endgame, but I’m obviously very unhappy about a separation. I just don’t agree with the idea that they need to be apart to grow and heal individually. Like what kind of message does that send about relationships? That you can’t work through things together? Or support each other with your own individual challenges? When things get rough you’ve gotta go your separate ways and deal with stuff on your own before you can be together again? Which is the opposite of how Hope and Landon’s relationship has always been? That doesn’t necessarily send a good message, people can absolutely grow and heal individually together. I mean, what do people think happens with married couples? That they never grow or progress ever again? It’s ridiculous and it would be great if, for once, a tv show would actually show a couple realistically getting through challenges together throughout the course of the series without separating them. And especially in this case, when Hope and Landon have always fought for each other and would need each other more than ever, it just makes absolutely no sense to me. And also almost makes all of season 3 and them fighting to get back to each other kinda for nothing?

But anyway, I really wanna see Landon’s storyline too but I fear for what they’re gonna do regarding his trauma. I’m worried it’s gonna be handled badly (if it’s even handled at all) especially if they’re not gonna have Hope helping him. It’s unbelievable tbh, I’ll be crying too. Hope’s storyline could be interesting as well with her most likely being a full tribrid. And I’d think her pushing her friends away would make sense, but her pushing Landon away would make no sense. I sure hope that Hope and Landon don’t push each other away, why would they do that after all they’ve been through? I can’t think of any good reason. But I hope whatever happens, they’ll still end up being stronger and closer eventually. I’m glad you’re excited, I wish I was, but I’m mostly just scared. I’m hoping it won’t be as bad as I’m thinking it will be. If the real changes happen starting in 4x05, maybe we’ll still get a lot of great Handon stuff in the next four episodes, if anything.

[landonkirbyappreciation]

Hey, sorry to send this in an ask but for some reason I can't comment. But it's about your post about Aria and why no one seems to be talking about it. I think it's mostly because no one knows anything for sure. Everything is just speculations and rumors at this point(it's also not helping that people are saying that Landon is getting killed off which makes no sense in any way. Not unless someone knows something the rest of us don't about Aria quitting the show or something). All we know is the pictures that we're post of Aria at the play house(which could have been at any time and just post on that day) a picture of him at a party and that YouTube video that was post about a day ago with him making cocktails. So I guess given all of that I can understand why some people might start to worry about that. I know filming start it on 9/20 but we don't really know if that's the day the actaully start it filming that could have been a set up day. But yea since we don't really know anything for sure, for all we know Aria could have been down in Georgia and flimed the few scenes he has for 4x05(which I think might be Landon in the hosipal recovering from being depossessed and whatever else may have happened in 4x04) and then had some days to himself which is why he may be back in N.Y. right now. And is just waiting until they're going to start filming 4x06 before heading back to Georgia, if he isn't already back there now. As well as a million other things that can go into his filming schedule. Or it could be a case where he's in 4x05 but not 4x06 etc. So I pretty choosing not to worry until we see what happens in 4x04. But either way I refused to believe what so many people seems to think about Landon getting killed off(and IF they actaully pulled that and to Landons character no less. Not only will I drop the show, I might have to start a riot. Because out of all characters Landon is the one character who doesn't deserve to die not after everything's he's been through in his life, season 3 especially). But I believe that Aria is filming and we just don't know it bc of how private Aria is and because of how little they've given about the cast and season 4 so far.

P.s sorry again for going on like that and for sending it to you in your ask. And it's also completely okay if you don't want to answer this, I just want it to put my thought out there on this topic.

Yeah it’s all a bit weird. I’m pretty sure Aria has been in New York for a while. I’d think those pictures of him at the playhouse were likely posted soon after, but who knows. And I’m pretty sure he would’ve been in New York for that youtube video as well since I’d guess that friend of his is from New York (they both did a musical there years ago and she was at the movie quiz thing he did there recently too). And wherever he was at the party yesterday, he still had some facial hair, so idk what’s going on. Unless Landon is gonna have facial hair, I’m kinda doubting he’s filming anything yet. But it’s true we have no idea what’s going on, and there haven’t been any bts pics of the cast or anything. I just think it would be so strange if Landon wasn’t in 4x05 after everything that’s been going on, and right after what was originally the season 3 finale? I’ve not been believing what people have been saying about Landon dying either, but I also just don’t trust the writers. And with the way the show has gone, I often feel I should expect the worst. They got rid of Raf suddenly when he was a main, and I know you can’t compare Raf to Landon since Landon is the male lead, but still. If Aria wanted to quit and was able to if he only signed on for a few seasons or something... I mean, I wouldn’t blame him, but I would lose my mind. Like I can’t imagine anything worse, I would also drop the show and would be rioting as well. And absolutely, Landon has had a life full of pain, killing him for good would be the worst thing they could do. And if they did that with no warning when Aria is the second lead of the show, after Danielle, I can’t imagine them doing something like that? But I really don’t know what to think. I’m really not sure if Aria has been filming, I get the feeling he hasn’t been, but I hope I’m wrong. I’m hoping it’s all just due to filming schedules or something. (And I’m someone who worries easily so ignore me and my doubts because hopefully everything is fine.) It would be nice if someone would say something about the show or if they would actually promote it, then maybe we’d have some kind of clue about what’s going on. I hope we’ll get cast interviews or something in the next couple weeks and maybe we’ll hear from Aria then. And no worries, thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[pynkhues]

Do you think there will be a big cliffhanger at the end of 4x05 that we don’t know about?

I do, anon! Retta said in her pre-season 4 interview that there would be a cliffhanger where the original season ending was going to be. What that looks like is anyone’s guess right now, but I do suspect it’s going to have something to do with Annie, the gun and Lucy’s murder. The cliffhangers have usually brought us full circle to build on early season plot points after all – from robbing the grocery store again to get Rio arrested in s1 to the kerfuffle with Boomer’s body leading to the showdown with Turner in s2.

Guess we’ll just have to wait and see :-)

[nothingunrealistic]

naturally was going "hmm what kind of fins (fish) would young taylor in the bathtub wish for. how would we know what they think would be the best fish tail to have" & then was just thinking of Younger Taylor Hcs just in general. got any you'd wanna share, or like, any faves from what's been provided either as unofficial ideas or via those glimpses of info in the show's text. Fave can be in a "truly enjoy this" way & or simply more of a "truly Thinking About This An Extra Lot" sense lol. They

Boy Do I… first, a listing of everything we Know from canon about their childhood / early life / family:

taylor grew up in “a place like” connerty’s small apartment where “the heat pipes bang practically all night” in the winter [2x11]

taylor’s mom would deem the apartment they rented for her & douglas too expensive, and if she & douglas were shopping for furniture, they’d argue about how much things cost [4x07]

taylor never thought they’d be thinking about living a life where they book private jets [2x09]

the masons’ home is hundreds of miles from any body of water (as shown here) and douglas had to fly to nyc to see taylor [4x03]

douglas figures taylor’s mom won’t miss him getting in her way back home [4x03]

taylor has a sister; when she gets married, in michigan, taylor is part of the wedding party [2x09]

at a young age, taylor was always measuring information around them, and sweet / affectionate, especially toward douglas [4x03]

taylor’s favorite cereal as a kid was frosted flakes [4x09]

taylor was never really douglas’s “little girl” like he claims [4x03]

the first time douglas brought taylor to his lab, it meant a lot to them, and the next day they gave him designs to remake it [4x06]

douglas taught taylor: “don’t just have an idea, build the model that proves it” [4x07]

according to douglas, taylor gets the “unyielding compulsion to get it right” from him, and their relationship was best when they “kept things mathematical” [4x03]

douglas wishes he could have built real wealth / success and given it all to taylor [4x03]

wendy mentions to taylor that douglas has “exploited your need for his approval,” and taylor agrees that douglas only cares about his own advancement rather than being a father first [4x07]

douglas dislikes the military / the government [4x06]

taylor is surprised by douglas quoting a pop song [4x07]

when taylor was younger, the bathtub was the only place they could go to be alone and think, and they’d press their legs against the sides hard enough to make them go numb [3x11]

taylor started playing online poker at age 12 under the screen name ZackCody892 and played up to 16 tables at a time (and for thousands of hours) [2x03]

douglas was fired from his job at an aerospace firm when taylor was in 7th grade. this firing damaged their relationship with him and “affected the home life.” for years, taylor thought douglas had been fired so that the firm could steal his invention, and only found out the truth from his personnel file [2x11, 4x05, 4x06]

taylor has had 927 hours of therapy prior to their session with dr. gus, and that number hasn’t changed at their first session with wendy [2x03, 2x08]

douglas, in bringing taylor food and coffee, claims they rarely take the time to look after themself [4x04]

taylor used to lie to themself and others but is now past that, and knows “how hard it is to have things inside you that you can’t communicate” and “what it’s like to face public scrutiny over who you are” [2x08, 3x02, 4x04]

when taylor reminds douglas about their pronouns, he says “this talk again?”, implying it’s a discussion they’ve had before [4x03]

taylor once got into a bar fight with a high school classmate (it’s unclear whether they were still in high school at the time) after seeing y tu mamá también in a theater [5x07]

taylor was active in occupy wall street in college [2x10]

taylor played poker in college against classmates, grad students, & professors, but their opponents kicked them out for winning too much; additionally, the competitive aspect made them sick (described as “malaise” or “vertigo-like symptoms”) [2x03, 4x12]

taylor planned to go to chicago for grad school and study with eugene fama [2x02]

mafee picked taylor as his intern because they were the only applicant who wasn’t boring / didn’t care about the same bullshit that everyone from wharton or harvard did [5x04]

douglas initiated the visit to taylor, claiming it was because he’d missed them, after not being ready to see them even though taylor’s mother wanted to visit countless times [4x03, 4x07]

taylor is trying to be “everything to their father” in funding his company, and neither of them will be able to come back from taylor being forced to betray him [4x06, 4x07]

wow that’s a long list. and now, my own thoughts and extrapolations:

taylor grew up somewhere in the west / midwest with their parents and sister, who’s a few years older than them, in a house small enough that they had to share a bedroom with her. hence, needing to hide out in the bathtub to get any space & time alone.

from very early on, taylor was douglas’s favorite child and he was their favorite parent — douglas saw taylor’s intelligence & insight (and saw himself in them) and chose to put time & effort into teaching / guiding / molding them, hoping they’d one day follow in his footsteps / support his ambitions, and taylor liked that attention & recognition. (douglas’s attitude toward taylor’s sister is essentially “well she’s here too i guess.”)

douglas taught taylor enough about aerospace engineering & mathematics for them to understand the value of his lattice fin concept, and to generally have a better grasp of engineering concepts than your average (even very well-read) business major / financier. (remember how rebecca knew a robot’s “proprietary” power source was a combustion engine because her father was a mechanic? same deal here. see also: the “smash electronics apart to find the microchips inside and figure out who makes them” strategy; taylor comparing losing grigor’s money to building a turbo engine and having the nitrous tank blow up in their face.) this manifested in both directly teaching them in his lab and in playing games like the silverware-stacking game we see in 4x03, or like douglas throwing out math problems for taylor to solve on the spot, or the two of them solving math problems together.

douglas also imparted his taste in music (which does not include anything new / popular) to taylor, though their taste as an adult (or even as, like, a teenager) isn’t identical to his. this is how they discovered rush in the first place and why they have such strong opinions about The Best Rush Albums. (if douglas had such a ranking, it’d be closer to axe’s than to taylor’s.)

listening to rush helped make taylor a libertarian 😔 that’s just life when you’re a neil peart stan, which of course they are. they admire his lyrics + his drumming talent + his absolute poker face in performances.

douglas also taught taylor to play blackjack, which inspired them to go and learn poker on their own and start playing online. they tried to keep it a secret, but it's hard to be secretive about spending hours a day playing online poker on the family computer. (this is 2006 or so, after all.)

taylor figured out that they were Not A Girl (or at least had thoughts of “hm i don’t enjoy being addressed / perceived as A Girl”) fairly young but didn’t acquire a concrete vocabulary for / specific understanding of that for some time. (if douglas is calling they/them pronouns “that woke stuff” in 2019, he sure wasn’t saying anything clear or favorable about trans people in 2009 or 1999. ditto for online poker sites.)

douglas’s firing exacerbated every negative aspect of the mason family dynamic. he doubled down on pushing taylor toward his field, urging them to succeed where he’d failed, and warning them against letting anyone Steal Their Value. money got tighter, taylor’s parents argued more, and any activities taylor was in (like, say, swimming at the ymca) that required payment got cut; they may have figured out how to make money (illegally!) from online poker at this point. the combined stress of financial instability, being torn between pursuing their own ambitions and fulfilling douglas’s expectations for them, and increasing Gendered Expectations in general — plus the whole “playing online poker for hours a day” thing — probably put taylor in therapy within a few months, if they weren’t in therapy already. (how did their parents pay for it? i don’t know either.)

stealing this from that interview asia & brian & david did in 2017: if taylor had not already taught themself to think and speak directly & incisively and look people in the eye when they talk, et cetera, it started here, whether in therapy or on their own time.

taylor went to college in new york city. douglas did not want them to do this, for a number of reasons, and would have preferred they stick closer to home (and study something other than finance), but doing so would have made them miserable.

by the time they finished high school (circa 2012), taylor had properly heard of trans people and figured that they were somehow One Of Them, but not until college did they hear of people being nonbinary and go “ohhhh yeah that’s me.” (they’d also gotten a Short Haircut in high school, but didn’t go full buzzcut until college. unsurprisingly, they got some shit in high school for being Visibly gnc.)

for some period of time while figuring out their gender situation, taylor went by the name neil as a nod to neil peart. (it’s fun to imagine that they still have a faceless twitter / tumblr account where they go by neil. doubles as a way to prevent anyone connecting it to their real life.)

taylor came out to their family while in college. their mom and sister had fairly similar reactions of “well i don’t Get this exactly, but i love you and want to support you and i’m sure you know what you're talking about better than i do and you did clearly hate it every time i urged you to conform to Standards Of Womanhood so sure i can call you Them and my [child / sibling] :)” given some time to think about it. douglas… well. if he’s starting from a place of “i don’t get this,” he’ll end up at “so it must be wrong and stupid, because i’m always right,” especially if This = his favorite child being different in some significant way from who / what he thought they were. obviously he doesn’t react well or supportively, and the strain in his relationship with taylor tips over into full-blown estrangement. bad times for everyone.

if taylor’s bar fight happened when they were old enough to legally enter a bar, it happened after coming out to their family (also after the live poker fiasco), and before making plans for grad school / internships. most likely it was on a summer break they were spending back in their hometown. (another fun thought: taylor seeing the video of axe punching a guy, just weeks after they punched a guy, and going “well maybe i should work for him.”)

if douglas was at taylor’s sister’s wedding (and maybe he wasn’t!), it was awkward for everyone when he and taylor crossed paths again. barest of pleasantries, passive-aggressive comments, et cetera. naturally, it took a few more years — and douglas realizing that taylor, now being fairly wealthy and successful, could probably fund his dream project if they didn’t hate him — for him to decide to visit them.

[softedwin]

"tbh after talking to Hale I doubt q will be back" 👀??

I asked on tumblr if I should ask Hale when he thinks Eliot fell in love with Quentin (because it’s canon that they were in love?? especially after 4x05) and I ended up asking him because I thought it was a relatively harmless, innocent question. And he answered it the way I thought he would (like that it actually started around when they had a threesome) but he also answered in a way that said: please don’t get your hopes up, he probably won’t be back and queliot won’t happen. his tone just... felt different yknow? not as enthusiastic as in those interviews which I don’t even blame him for because it sucked what happened. but as @steverogrs pointed out to me: hale knows what’s gonna happen next. so he probably answered with that perspective (and we have reason to believe that eliot will have a new love interest and I HATE that) and he was probably forced by the writers to answer questions in that way, yknow like a script he had to tell anyone who asked about it. it especially made me sad because I started my question with: “I usually don’t like asking shipping questions because I know some actors are uncomfortable with it but I thought it was cool with you” and when I mentioned shipping, his face literally lit up and he leaned forward and wanted to hear more. So I think he wasn’t able to give me the answer he wanted to because of the stupid writers and what he already knows because obviously he doesn’t want anyone to get their hopes up when he knows what will happen next and that doesn’t include quentin. of course he could have gone on a rant about how they’re madly in love but 1) I get if he can’t really be as enthusiastic about it anymore and 2) like dani pointed out to me afterwards, I most likely would have gotten my hopes up because that’s what I do and I think he didn’t want to do that to me. Unlike the actors he acted responsibly which I’m really grateful for but it still kinda sucked and with that in mind I’m starting to have doubts that quentin will be back :( or maybe hale couldn’t give me another answer bc it could have been a spoiler in terms of q coming back?? I really don’t know but it just made me sad because I thought that was a question he could have answered honestly (tbf he did but like not as honest as he probably could in other circumstances if that makes sense) and without pressure from the showrunners. like it was a fairly innocent question and it makes me upset that he can’t even really answer that :( I’ve actually been feeling bad about it but whatever right ajfkaf

[smootheliot]

Thank you for all the good vibes! I'm new to the fandom and got major whiplash as I went from excited binge watching to live watching fandom drama - I guess 4x11 might not have been the best time to get caught up with the new season xD Anyways, thank you for creating such a lovely, positive, anxiety free space in these trying times! <3

well… yeah:D it was not the best time - i’ve been here since season one so i remember the queliot hype after 1x12, 2x01, 3x05 and 4x05 - it all escalates with each ep more. 3x05 had a huge hype, but it all seemed like a closed door for this storyline so no one was really expecting a lot to happen after it.

4x05 got like… a whole different shout out, honestly. “the magicians” was trending on tumblr after this ep aired for 24 hours and even let “one direction” fall on #2 (because some old harry/louis interview got leaked and the fandom awakened apparently lol) and it also trended #1 here after 4x06 aired.

there were so many articles about the episode, it became the best rated ep of this season AND after that, rotten tomatoes gave s04 of the magicians 100% rating (which never happened before) and in general rarely happens to every show on tv - the thing is that nothing really stays happy for a long time on this show and especially not near the finale. though i would say we’re in for some good content in it (as the whole cast praised how this is the best finale they have ever shot)

i think queliot will definitely be on a table during s05 because it gave the show incredible ratings that they have never gotten before and the number of viewers rose so for them to keep s05 really interesting and eventually attractive for the audience, i’m sure they will go and explore their relationship more

[flyingcatstiel]

are we finding it ironic that Sara gamble has now been on TWO shows where the writing became royally screwed up in the end and queer baiting abounded? I don’t watch the magicians but from the sense I’m getting, oof, she did it again.

Yep, she did it again. I’m scrolling through The Magicians’s fans tumblrs now, trying to piece together what happened and it is not pretty. I haven’t watched the show at all, so this is just what I got from tumblr  

Jason Ralph, lead character Quentin (mentally ill, depressed, suicidal bisexual character), was talking about leaving the show with the writers and they designed this season. They knew from the start that Quentin is gonna die, yet they also wrote the episode teasing the ship,4x05, Quentin/Eliot and engaging with shippers on SM for a whole year. J.Ralph was forbidden to tell the cast that he’s leaving, the script had dummy scene and all cast thought that Quentin will survive. The funeral /goodbye fire was shot with all actors thinking he will be back. They learned about his departure only this week meaning they never had a chance to tell goodbye to their cast member of 4 years.

Quentin dies in sacrificial suicide to free Eliot from magic whammy; they are not even given reunion scene after whole season being apart or barely interacting. Because, according to the writers, they wanted realism and IRL you sometimes don’t get reunions you deserve. They wanted REALISM, on the show about magic, and dragons, and mirror worlds. 

gay Eliot was magically straight in s4 (ETA - I’m told he wasn’t magically straight but I did see posts that his queerness was ??? not there? tell me!) , bisexual Quentin, while fighting for the love of his life, Eliot, was paired up with a woman. Sera Gamble and Co patted themselves on the back for LGBTQ representation on the show

I have no words to say how f*ucked up this is. I mean, even Joss Whedon recently admitted that he was wrong to kill his rare lesbian character. I thought TV writers are aware of disparity between hetero and same sex relationships? Also, a lot of fans are devastated because with Quentin they lost relatable character. This is not even about the ship so much, as telling that people with suicidal indentations just should do sacrificial suicide and be happy about it. 

Off topic, but this reminds me so much of all post 12x23 discourse - Cas will come back from being dead and his depression will be cured! And when Cas fans balked at such idea, we were painted as uneducated peasants who don’t understand how the story works. I mean, Sera’s legacy lives on in this fandom. Just kill off characters who are sad! I just saw similar comment about grieving Dean in s14 - he should die, and then he will come back with better mental space, just like Cas did. As if Cas came back healed of his depression. *clenches fist*. 

have some sources, obviously spoilers for s4 finale of The Magicians

Interview with Sera Gamble, posted just before The Magicians finale, talks also about her other show YOU, and her years with Supernatural

Interview with Jason Ralph, good overview of how messed up the whole situation was. He’s very diplomatic tho.

fan reaction on twitter - One, Two, Three

Just couple of weeks ago I talked to my friend and we both agreed that we are still so salty about what Sera did with Castiel in 7x01, that we are not gonna watch her shows again. Funny how right we were. 

ETA - some The Magicians fans blog said that the show runners were never actually interested in the ship, queliot. They were interested in bromance and deep friendship between two men, and that’s why the ship got so much screwed over. This fits with Sera saying that she learned the importance of male closeness while working on Supernatural. Which is all nice and dandy, except Sera was fully aware of main m/m ships on SPN and their passionate fanbase, She must have known that shipping will happen and it will mean a lot to many fans. So, her comments about going where the story takes them is beyond pale. 

[redina]

While I did sign the petition to support Jason Ralph's return as Quentin Coldwater, I also got the feeling he wasn't interested in returning. Instead, he wanted to move on to different things:

Ralph: "I'm happy with the story that we told, and I'm ready to move on and to try on some new characters." TV Insider 20190417

I'll respect his decision and wish him well on his new projects. I don't know Jason, personally, but he seems like a good guy.

This next part is a sensitive area to bring up for some and I understand... the need to protect a beautiful image. I wish I didn't have any doubts but we are, at least, in agreement that Jason filmed all of S4, without telling his co-stars that he was leaving the series. This was all under an NDA contract.

"At what stage did you decide to kill Quentin? Gamble: We started talking about it at the end of season three with Jason Ralph." THR 20190417

At the end of season three can be defined as before 2018's SDCC and all the positive 3x05 SDCC comments from Jason then becomes a little less happy-inducing because writing and filming for season four would've started by July. We can agree that Jason knew, at the start of S4. I *really* wish Sera hadn't clouded things by saying this.

I was so upset with the S4 finale of The Magicians that I didn't read most of the interviews, at the time. Really, what could anyone say to make what was aired any less painful?

"Obviously, the most exciting part of this [4x05] episode was that it revisits the relationship between Quentin and Eliot that was established last season. Did you know that this is something that the writers were planning to return to? Appleman: Not at all." Out 20190221

And...

"Were you surprised when the show decided to revisit that [3x05] moment right after they return to the timeline in episode? Ralph: I was surprised that we were returning to it." EW 20190417

Fans complained about Q's lack of bringing up the Mosaic...

"Do you think Eliot turning Quentin down after they returned from the “A Life in the Day” timeline, which was revealed in episode 5, played into any of Quentin’s anger toward Fillory? Ralph: A little bit. [...] I know that for Hale and I, and when we discussed it with the showrunners, it wasn’t necessarily something that they remembered every moment of. [...] It was more of an emotional memory. [...] I think the actual memories began to very quickly disappear. I don’t know if it’s something they’re constantly living with."

Reading Hale and Jason's surprise at the 3x05 revisit and the general impression Queliot was a vague "emotional memory" makes the purpose of 4x05 all the more gut-wrenching in... why did the showrunners even bother? Did they not expect Queliot to be so popular? Was it to add to the cruelty of watching Q die, with Eliot's unresolved feelings?

All this beautiful *potential* and I *wish* things could've been different.

[themagiciansreccenter]

Author Spotlight: @quellthefire​

Every week we interview a writer from The Magicians fandom. If you would like to be interviewed or you want to nominate a writer, get in touch via our ask box.

First things first, tell us a little about yourself.

I’m a 26 year old queer woman who probably obsesses over fandoms more than is healthy. I went to school to study bones and infectious diseases, but ended up working as a barista and really love it most days. At some point I hope to go to mortuary school. I’m hopelessly obsessed with Marvel as well, and have been writing a lot of Steve/Tony fic lately, in addition to my usual Queliot.

How long have you been writing for?

I started writing fanfic about 12 years ago, but only recently got back into it after a years-long hiatus.

What inspired you to start writing for The Magicians?

I was so captivated by the friendship and sexual relationship between Quentin and Eliot in Season 1. At the time I never imagined the writers would develop it to the extent they have, so writing fanfic seemed like the only way to explore that relationship in the way I wanted to.

Who is/are your favourite character(s) to write? What it is about them that makes them your favourite?

I absolutely love writing Eliot. He’s my go-to point of view. There’s such an opportunity to explore feelings of lust and inadequacy, and I love writing about Eliot being awed that Quentin wants him. I also love writing banter between El and Margo. It gives me a chance to be snarky and crude and write lines of dialogue that make me laugh. And recently, I’ve been trying to challenge myself to write from Quentin’s perspective more, because I really love his awkward/excited stream of consciousness style of talking.

Do you have a preference for a particular season/point in time to write about?

I tend to veer towards a non-defined point in the middle of season 1. I absolutely love writers who dig deep into show plot points, but I always end up writing scenes where the point in time doesn’t matter nearly as much as the conversation and emotions that are happening.

Are you working on anything right now? Care to give us an idea about it?

I actually don’t have any Magicians stories in progress at the moment, because I need to fulfill some obligations for fic challenges in the Marvel fandom, but I’ve got some ideas for exploring post 4x05 Queliot. Much of my writing has had an angsty bent to it, so it’s been fun thinking about fluffier concepts.

How long is your “to do list”?

Ehh let’s not think too hard about that. It’s kinda daunting, but I’m slowly working my way through it. I tend to be very spontaneous in my writing method, and I’m trying to challenge myself to write things that are longer than a single evening’s worth of work.

What is your favourite fic that you’ve written for The Magicians? Why?

“Feelings are for Pussies and the Aesthetically Challenged” is probably my favorite right now, and also has had the biggest response from readers. It was originally intended as a one-shot, but basically every comment asked me to keep going, and that was such a cool experience to get ideas from readers and use them as inspiration to write two more chapters. I’m really proud of how many people seemed to enjoy it.

Many writers have a fic that they are passionate about that doesn’t get the reception from the fandom that they hoped for. Do you have a fic you would like more people to read and appreciate?

“Eliot and the Art of Sharing” for sure. It’s one of the first Magicians fics I ever wrote, and it’s kind of an odd one, but it holds a special place in my heart because it’s when I started developing the way I write Eliot and Margo’s friendship.

What is your writing process like? Do you have any traditions or superstitions that you like to stick to when you’re writing?

I tend to be very in the moment. I’ll get an idea and sit down on my couch or in bed to write for a couple hours, which can be quite difficult since I use my phone. I’m bad about writing at night before an opening shift. I’ve spent a lot of late nights I should be sleeping working on a story in the hopes of getting it posted. Waking up at 5 am for work sucks the next morning, but it seems to be how I write my best stuff.

Do you write while the seasons are airing or do you prefer to wait for hiatus? How does the ongoing development of the canon influence and inspire your writing process?

I joined the fandom in November of 2018, so I don’t have a lot of experience with the show airing, but I definitely wrote more on hiatus. A lot of my work exists outside of current canon, so I think the emotional aspect of whatever is currently happening with each new episode affects my writing much more than the actual plot.

What has been the most challenging fic for you to write?

I struggled to complete “Dancing on My Own” partly because it was such an introspective look at Eliot’s inner thoughts. I found myself channeling a lot of my own anxieties and intrusive thoughts, and that was difficult to write, but I think it really paid off to take a step back from writing it to give myself space to decide what I was comfortable with sharing about my own mental health struggles. I’m so proud of how it turned out.

Are there any themes or tropes that you like particularly like to explore in your writing?

I’m a slut for writing any fic where the two people in the ship are pining for each other, but are too scared to make a move. Add in the cast of background characters who start to realize what’s happening, and that’s my jam.

Are there any writers that inspire your work? Fanfiction or otherwise?

Fanfiction-wise, @ohmarqueliot, @sadlittlenerdking, and @adjovi are the people whose writing I first fell in love with in this fandom, and I keep coming back to their work. Outside of fanfiction, I’ve learned a lot through playing Dungeons and Dragons with a group of friends about character and world-building, and while it’s not traditional writing, there’s such a collaborative storytelling aspect to it that has massively influenced how I approach things.

What are you currently reading? Fanfiction or otherwise?

Right now I’m reading a lot of post 4x05 Queliot fic, (especially anything fluffy or smutty), as well as a lot of Steve/Tony MCU smut.

What is the most valuable piece of writing advice you’ve ever been given?

I saw Neil Gaiman give a lecture a few months back, and he told the audience that when he’s struggling to write that he makes himself sit at his computer and he tells himself he can either write or do nothing, but those are his only options. He said that usually he’ll get bored of staring at the wall pretty quickly, and start writing to save himself from the tedium of nothingness. As silly as it might sound, it totally works for me. It’s like a little hack for my brain that overrides the anxiety of starting a new story.

Are there any words or phrases you worry about over using in your work?

I definitely describe characters blushing far too much, and find myself using the same phrases a couple paragraphs in a row in most stories. Reading outloud as I edit helps a lot with that.

What was the first fanfic that you wrote? Do you still have access to it?

The one that immediately comes to mind was based off of Tamora Pierce’s “Protector of the Small” series. As a middle/high schooler I really loved her books and identified most with Keladry, the protagonist of that series. It was a post-series fixit fic resolving all the stuff I wish had happened. I tried finding it a couple years ago but couldn’t. I also wrote a lot of awful James/Lily Harry Potter fic back in the day, so that was probably the first stuff I ever wrote.

Self-edit or Beta?

Self-edit. I’m far too impatient to not post stuff the same night, and I get very stressed about other people editing my work. I’d like to eventually be able to handle having a beta, but I’m not sure if it’ll happen.

Comments or Kudos/Reblogs or Likes?

Yes please! I’m definitely the kind of person who closely monitors that stuff, as much as I hate to admit it. Comments are my favorite though. I absolutely love hearing from people who’ve read my work

Smut, Fluff or Angst?

I mostly read smut, write angst, and fluff is the sweet spot in that venn diagram.

Quick & Dirty or Slow Burn?

I’m impatient and usually go for Quick & Dirty, both in my writing and reading preferences, but I’ve been getting more into the delicious tension that is Slow Burns.

Favourite season?

Season two

Favourite Episode?

This is probably super cliche, but either 3x05 or 4x05.

Favourite book?

The Magician King

Three favourite words?

What the fuck

Want to be interviewed for our author spotlight? Get in touch here.

[imaginedmelody]

I think I’m finally ready to try and write my “The Magicians” season finale reaction post.

I’ve been collecting my thoughts on this for the last almost-week, because I knew that this post would be a difficult one; it’s hard to sort through all the opinions and feelings and put them down in a way that makes sense. I’ll try to hit on my major takeaways under the readmore. Bear in mind that my reaction is mixed. Conflicted is the word I’ve been using. I really sympathize with the pain that much of the fandom is feeling, even if I don’t feel it on a level that’s the same (or perhaps comparable) to theirs. I’ll try to dig into that in this post a bit.

I’m a new viewer to this show, as I’ve said many times before. I tried to watch it two years ago, and found it confusing in that I felt like it failed to resonate with me even though I still felt strangely drawn to it. I would watch an episode, feel unsatisfied and only barely interested, but then the next day I would feel oddly compelled to watch the next one. After about 5 episodes of season 1, I gave up. I picked it back up again about 9 weeks ago; I guess I was one of the many viewers who came along because of 4x05, although I didn’t realize that was why I was pulled back in- I just started seeing more and more about the show on my social media again, and it was enough to make me want to give it another try.

This time, I was hooked. I marathon-watched the whole show in probably 4-5 weeks and loved almost every moment (except for a couple of the really distressingly disturbing ones). I was so moved by 3x05, “A Life in the Day,” that I wrote this post about how the show felt like a missing piece had slotted into place at the end of that episode; like a photo that you don’t realize is slightly out of focus until someone adjusts the resolution and it just resolves. I got caught up enough to livetweet somewhere around episode 7 or 8 of season 4, and have been enjoying my integration into the fandom, although I’m still very peripherally a part of it.

I say all this because, as a new viewer, the fallout of 4x13 has been...confusing. Not confusing as in “I don’t understand why this is happening,” but in the sense that the fandom’s collective grief can feel kind of alienating to new viewers. That’s not intentional on the part of seasoned fans, and it’s not something that anyone should feel responsible for or obligated to change. It’s just difficult because we have only just invested in the show. We may be devastated at the loss of Quentin, many of us for the same reasons longtime viewers are (the loss of queer representation, for instance, or the way it seemed to counteract the positive development of a mentally ill character). But at the same time, a lot of us are more positive overall, even if we think killing off that character was a bad choice. We’re still kind of wrapped up in our enthusiasm, so that our grief just feels like another strong emotion we’re feeling, rather than a betrayal. And it can be awkward because we don’t want to express that too boldly or strongly, because we don’t want to appear to be trivializing the grief of other fans. I think that’s an unfair position that the show, not the fans, puts us in. We’re already new to the community, and now we feel less engaged in what is very much a communal emotional response. Positivity feels like rubbing salt in other fans’ wounds. So we’re not sure where we stand.

I was in shock when the show killed off Quentin. Like most viewers, I couldn’t believe it. I waited for them to find a way to reverse it. It was like a hole forming in my heart when they didn’t. I mentioned on twitter later that night that I cry all the time when I watch TV and movies- literally, if something is in any way beautiful, or sad, or exciting, or happy, I’m getting teary-eyed. But once the credits roll and the story is done, my emotional response is usually finished too. If I’m gonna react to it in any other way, it’ll be intellectual (through meta or fanfic) rather than emotional.

But when this episode ended, I finished my cup of tea, went upstairs, and got in the shower. And all of a sudden, before I even knew it, I was crying. It had been 15 minutes since the episode ended and I was still emotional enough to cry. Since then, because I’m a glutton for emotion who likes to lean into anything that makes me feel strongly, I’ve rewatched the episode once and the “Take On Me” scene like eight times- and every single time I’ve cried, even if it’s just a little. It touches some raw emotional place in me that very few shows get to. And I think I’m in awe of that as much as I’m in pain because of it.

I never quite got to the outrage that other fans did, though. That could be for a number of reasons- less prolonged attachment as a new viewer (although I feel very attached to the show and characters); greater privilege to not feel personally attacked by the loss; just having more emotional energy to engage with the scene. But I felt simultaneously anguished and energized by the episode, including the death. It broke my heart, but it also pulled me in. It’s very confusing. I’m angry at how things increasingly seem to have been mishandled, and I’m disappointed at the fallout this has for the show and the fans, and I’m in disagreement with the validity of the choice. But I still feel engaged and almost excited by it. That’s a hard balance to reconcile.

It really does seem to me like the writers dropped the ball. The fact that they knew they were killing Quentin off bothers me, but actually, the thing that I find most galling is that the other actors weren’t in on the plan. We have it on good authority that they filmed a fake scene, where presumably Q comes back somehow, and all the actors were led to believe that was what was in the episode until two days before the finale, when they were told the truth for the first time. My question is: why? Did they not trust the actors to keep the secret? I can kind of understand faking out the audience, but why play that mind game with your actors, who are part of the creative team and should know what’s going on? Why deprive them of the chance to say goodbye to Jason Ralph as a fellow cast member? So far, in every interview, no one has really explained what the point of that fakeout was. If I was an actor on the show, I’d feel really upset about that.

The other thing that’s really been grinding my gears is something that I saw mentioned in comments before I ever saw it in context in the article (and thank you to everyone who helped me find the source). It’s a quote from John McNamara, one of the showrunners, from an article in the Hollywood Reporter, in which he says this about the decision to kill off Q:

“... in a way, I'm not sure what we would have done with the character had he lived.”

I took issue with that statement for two reasons. The first is from a writing craft perspective. I understand wanting to take risks and shake up expectations, and I understand that “kill someone off” is common writing advice when you get stuck in a project. But it’s my firm belief that the main character (and even on an ensemble show like this, yes, there is a clear lead character) should pretty much always be safe. Because the premise of the show is structured in some essential way around him; that’s why he’s the lead. And that’s why almost every show that gets rid of its main character, either by recasting or just removing and replacing with other characters, goes downhill in quality- because that original character was integral to the story.

I’ve said before that literally the only story I can think of that is better for having killed off its protagonist is friggin’ Julius Caesar. When I teach that play, we discuss at that moment in Act 3- and then again at the end of the play- what it means for the narrative if your title character dies halfway through his story. What it means that Marc Antony is the lead for the rest of the play. How Caesar is still so central to the plot even though he’s dead. Part of the reason this doesn’t work on TV- the reason the plot can’t still centralize the character they killed in the narrative- is because a play is a single self-contained entity that you consume all at once, and a TV series is, well, serialized. The show can’t keep centering a character who’s no longer present, because it wouldn’t resonate in a long-form narrative that you consume in small installments. That’s why shows that kill off characters don’t keep bringing them up. They throw in a couple of heartfelt moments that directly or indirectly reference the character, and then they move on and you’re supposed to let them go. A protagonist has to live to keep being important to the story.

So I am of the firm belief that if your main character has outlived his usefulness, the problem is with your narrative as a whole, not with that particular character. If you can’t think of anywhere meaningful for that character to go, you don’t need to kill him off- you need to restructure your whole story so that it’s responsive to him again. It doesn’t have to revolve around him all the time- the show has frequently centered around other characters prominently and effectively, and Q doesn’t have to be in the spotlight all the time- but if he’s no longer relevant? Your whole story has a problem.

But the second thing that aggravates me about that comment is this: not only do I think Q should not ever become decentralized and disconnected from his show’s narrative, I don’t think he has. The events of this season provided so much room to develop that character. He learned his discipline (minor mendings), which has tremendous practical usefulness as well as symbolic significance. “Escape From the Happy Place” reopened a potential relationship that contains a whole wellspring of emotional resonance as well as complication. His father died- you can do a lot with the grief related to that. His reconnection with Alice felt hollow to me, but even that could be useful narratively (especially if she goes on to lead the Library, which could create a layer of separation and potential for either teamwork or conflict of interest that could sustain several intriguing narratives). Even his tendency toward suicidal self-sacrifice could have been brought up; the conversation he had with Penny about whether he was trying to be a hero or just finally finding a way to kill himself could be had after a failed self-sacrifice attempt just as meaningfully as a successful one.

Quentin has been filled with potential this entire season in the storyline. All of this plus his emotional reckoning with Fillory in the scene where he brings the garden back to life... it seemed like the writers spent the whole season re-establishing all the potential Q had. It didn’t read like a season in which the writers didn’t know what to do with him any more. So the decision to kill him off does seem purely like an effort to challenge themselves as writers and wrong-foot the fans. Which I don’t think is enough of a reason to do it.

Because here’s the thing: I’m a writer too, and I understand that the dichotomy of pursuing your own writing vision and capitulating to the fans’ wants and needs is a delicate one. Writers hate being told what to write, and with social media and fan conventions and other very close forms of engagement, fans have more ways to make their desires known than perhaps ever before. They have every right to make the choice that supports their creative vision, and to do things that force them to stretch their limits as creators. But this feels like it went wildly off its mark. It feels less like an experiment and more like a careless move, and I think they could have approached it a lot better.

I wouldn’t rule out seeing Q again on the show one day. I think if they’re willing to fake us all out once, they’d do it again. I’m comforted by the fact that they appear to have consulted the author early in the process and gotten his blessing, although his comments since then seem to walk back his involvement or contradict what the showrunners have said. (Whether that’s because they’ve overstated his involvement or enthusiasm, or whether he was involved in the decision and is now trying to distance himself from the fallout, it’s impossible to say.)

What is less heartening for me is that some of these writers/creators come from Supernatural, a show that has gone on for far too long and has been retreading tired old ground for years. I only watched to about season 8, but it just feels like an endless cycle of similar plot arcs and killing off and resurrecting the same characters over and over again. The Magicians, admittedly, feels a lot more well-crafted, so I don’t think they’d get as lazy as SPN seems to be- but it’s still a worry, all the same.

(Side note: I am often adamant that unless it’s a legacy franchise like Doctor Who, most shows should intentionally be constructed to be a maximum of 5-7 seasons. I think a lot of broadcast shows are less high-quality because they are just vague pitches that get riffed into a show; the writers and creators don’t come into it with an endpoint in mind, so the show goes on as long as they can add any material at all to it or until they get cancelled, whichever comes first. That means that the plot feels aimless and unstructured. The difference between “prestige TV” and “regular TV” is not just better writing and acting overall- it’s that those shows tend to have a very defined arc, and they know where they’re going, so everything is in service of a common idea. Not just a vague and easily sellable premise that can have a ton of stuff derived from it with little effort. I think The Magicians sits above most broadcast shows in quality, but this is where it is starting to show its weak points. And that’s why I think the creators need to be very deliberate about making sure everything going forward contributes to a very defined arc.)

So that’s where I am right now. Emotionally a wreck; disappointed in the process of this choice and feeling the grief other fans feel; strangely invigorated at the same time? Unsure where to go from here, really. Still committed to watching the show as much as I ever have been, but wary at the same time. It’s complicated. But I’m ready to embrace the complexity of it.

[imminent-danger-came]

Okay! Let’s do this.

I want to start off by saying thank you for being so chill! I know I said this in my tags a couple of days ago but I do really appreciate it :). I don’t want to argue with people online (or in general) but I am ALL for having a discussion.

I’m going to start by responding to each of your points and then see where I go from there! In advance, I want to let you know that I quote you in some places so I hope that doesn’t bother you too much—I just liked the way you phrased things better than I could rephrase them. If you don’t like/aren’t satisfied with my answers then I get it and respect it, but I hope I can convince you on at least some things! I’ve only watched season 4 once, however I think I can go decently in depth, so I’m going to give it a shot.

Buckle in, this is pretty long!

1. Rayla turning up out of the blue

I totally agree with you on some fronts, there really was a lot of build up for Rayla being gone for 2 years. Through the Moon (TTM), Rayla’s Letter “Dear Callum”, the number of promo’s and teasers relating to her disappearance—it was a lot of suspense, and in the end it culminated to her showing up...at the end of 4x02? Huh, I know I was a little surprised when I first watched it, especially after this scene:

Revenge? It’s an interesting word to use, especially in contrast to Rayla’s letter: “I’ve got one more gift for you, Callum. It’s not cake or kisses, but it’s something more important than that. I’M GOING TO KEEP YOU SAFE. I have to. I love you too much not to”. At the end of TTM she considers her leaving an act of love, not an act of revenge.

So, what changed?

We obviously don’t have the answer to that just yet, but we do get some hints that there was a significant event during Rayla’s time away that lead her to come back—that lead her to try and become less obsessive. She chose to return because at some point over the last 2 years, she learned that she needed to stop chasing after the next goal.

“ To me, one of the things about that scene actually has to do with [the fact that] Rayla has had to come back after two years of obsession and being mission-focused on finding Viren. Part of her growth is that she wants to be more normal and see if she can rebuild trust with Callum. Now, Claudia has basically handed her the next thing to be obsessed about. Some of the questions going into Season 5 for Rayla is how does she balance what she now has against the growth and progress she thinks she made in the last two years. Is this more important, or is Callum or whatever else that's going on in the world more important? She'll struggle with that.“

In fact, I think it’s super significant that Rayla decided to come back of her own accord at all. That alone shows that something is different.

((Now, the interview may not be the strongest evidence as it hasn’t been explicit in the show quite yet, but I think viewing Rayla’s actions through this lens adds a lot to the season.))

One thing that especially highlights Rayla’s differences is in 4x05:

“We can’t save everyone, Soren, There’s too much at stake. I’m leaving, and you better be right behind me.”

2. The Sunfire Elf Plot

Woah, holy shit. This is such a far cry from the Rayla who was going to sacrifice herself to save a downed dragon. Back in season 2 that was “where she was meant to be”, that was who she was. Here we see how her core character trait has been fundamentally changed, and that’s a serious thing! This scene alone so clearly illustrates that there’s SOMETHING we haven’t seen.

Rayla is a character that unless prodded (usually by Callum pre s4), won’t open up or admit to anything she feels underneath the surface. In season 4 Callum is cold and distant towards her, meaning our main mode of learning about Rayla’s inner world simply isn’t there. Now that we’ve had some form of a reconciliation between Callum and Rayla, I’m very excited to see her arc in season 5.

I think that’s what Karim believes. He believes that his people will be on his side, and that everyone views Janai’s acts as queen to be AGAINST their history. That’s what he tells us, the audience, anyways. But what we’re shown is quite different. The 6 Horns arrest Karim, and it seems that a large number of elves are willing to work with humans and vice versa.

“people will be upset about this/people are angry...”

That is something Karim talks a lot about, isn’t it?

Really, the moment Karim’s secret accomplice Miyana repeatedly voiced her doubts on the Horns taking his side, I knew Karim was misguided. Just look at her face as Karim preforms the blood ash ritual:

Or when Karim asks if Miyana has gathered the 6 horns:

This is not the face of someone who wants to dethrone the Queen, or is completely on board with everything Karim is up to. She has significant doubt.

Karim is a man of principal, tradition, and history. He was stating what he chose to see and what he believed rather than the reality. When Janai and Amaya go off to have their personal conversation, most people in the camp have neutral expressions: 

It’s only Karim who actually looks upset: 

Yet, he’s convinced that the people seeing Janai go off and have “lunch” with her fiance will upset them, enrage them. But, they’re clearly not.

This is in line with what Ezran says to Kasef in season 3: “the world wants peace.” Yes, there is conflict, yes there is tension, and of course there is hatred between Humans and Elves—however, they are trying. They’re attempting to navigate a peaceful future, and it’s not just our main protagonists doing that.

To hound that point home, in the end the 6 Horns won’t stand with Karim, not even Miyana.

Now this isn’t to say that they’re in full support of Janai either. If you notice, Miyana and 2 other Horns both make no move to arrest Karim:

So, in short: no one actively stands against Janai because no one actually wanted too, Karim just assumed they would. Or at the very least, no one has made a move yet—I think next season these three horns could potentially work with Karim to finally take action against Janai. Again this season was set up—meaning it wasn’t a full arc. But I’ll touch on that more later!

Next, you mentioned that like the Karim plot, it was the “same deal with katolis and the whole ppl don’t like the dragon queen thing”. Honestly, they did enough showing for me to be satisfied!

In particular, I think about this shot with 2 parents holding back (or in their perspective shielding) their child from Zubeia.

This family is terrified!

It’s also a perfect example of the “breaking the cycle” and “generational conflict” narratives the show has established since season 1. The parents, with no intervention, would have passed their fear and hatred down to their child. The cycle would have continued—instead however, Zubeia was invited to Katolis by Ezran to show the people who she is beyond “The Enemy Queen of the Dragons.

After Zubeia’s arrival, initial tensions are relieved with Soren and his stand-up routine (loved Zubeia being Soren’s hype man this season), and clearly the Dragon Queen is making an effort for peace and reconciliation on her end as well. No matter what mishaps happen, she’s always willing to respond with kindness and chivalry. Even after getting splattered in the face with persimmon jelly she simply tastes it, complements the flavor, and declares it the most “delicious jelly in all of Xadia”. And, well, Barius feels honored by this. We see other people congratulate him:

It’s meaningful that the Dragon Queen would complement a Human Baker, and I think this scene really shows that.

Next, we have the most obvious case of humans being angry at Xadia-

-the destruction of Zubeia’s portrait. I doubt a crowd of civilians, even Humans who hate Dragons and Elves more than anything, would attack or yell at Zubeia directly (no one stands up when Soren accuses the crowd). However, tearing a hole into a symbol of “hope and friendship” between Humans and Xadia? Now that’s something I could see someone actually doing, and something they actually did.

There’s only 1 episode in season 3 that involves the Dragon Queen and Katolian relations—and I think they did a stellar job!

3. Janaya

Same, lol.

4. The Difficulty With Pacing

So, I’m a believer in season 4 being a super in-depth and ridiculous (affectionate) parallel to season 1. Viren and Callum (both high mages) are introduced with the mirror, Callum and Rayla meet in episode 2 of each season (with Callum turning around to see Rayla I might add), there’s 3 episodes of set up before the seasons really take off, in each season there are even “guide” characters (Ellis and N’than) that lead to the discovery of a Nexus (Moon and Earth)...there are A LOT of interesting similarities. Season 4 is the season 1 of arc 2, and the writers want us to know it!

As you mentioned season 4 is a set up season, and it’s also a season that had the seriously difficult task of reintroducing the story for arc 2.

You said that nothing really advanced the story/plot in a meaningful way until the end of the season—however, I’d argue that that’s just kinda how TDP has always been. That’s what I like about it—arc 1 was all about returning the dragon egg to Xadia, which left a lot of room to explore character arcs. Really, what did they actually achieve in season 1? They found the egg, got a little  closer to the border, and then they hatched the egg. The real meat of the season came from learning about these new characters and seeing their  dynamics and it’s the core of the show. It’s what I like about the show.

Season 4 is very similar in that way. It establishes our characters post time-skip and fleshes out their new dynamics, all while doing further world building and answering some important questions like “How/why was Aaravos imprisoned” or “Who are the other arch dragons”. Yes, season 4 essentially boils down to “The team learns about Aaravos, they attempt to prevent one crucial step to his return, and they fail”. But, I don’t really think it needed to be anything more—that’s the exact same amount of plot “progression” season 1 had.

Another thing you mentioned is that this season didn’t have enough space “to balance 3 fully fleshed out arcs”. Well, that would be because they’re not full arcs—at least not yet. That’s what I mean when I say it’s a set up season.

In the same way that season 4 is a parallel to season 1, season 5 is going to be a parallel to season 2 (which I know has me excited!). Season 1, when I first watched it, felt very incomplete—and then I watched season 2. Narratively, they’re two halves of one “season”, or arc. Episodes 9 of season 1 and season 4 feel like mid-season finales, and that’s what they are, story-telling wise anyways. Honestly, I’d wait until the next season to see how everything plays out. This is just the nature of 9 episode seasons—and I don’t mind it. It makes everything feel really connected, and that’s something TDP will always excel at. If anyone hates that narrative structure that’s totally fine, but it’s not objectively bad.

One complaint I often see is that the new arc is called “The Mystery of Aaravos”, yet Aaravos only got 1 scene this season. I’m going to be blunt (this “””criticism””” drives me crazy, which you didn’t do I’m just complaining), I need people to understand what the word “mystery” actually means: “anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown” or “something not understood or beyond understanding“.

...Isn’t that what season 4 did with Aaravos?

The whole season was centered around Aaravos and how to stop him, which inherently means it lives up to the title. He’s a “mystery”, an enigma. He had his 2 minutes, and they were perfect for what they set out to do—be a threat, and show that Aaravos pulls the strings behind the scenes. His presence is felt through the entire season despite not being on screen, reflecting his role in history as well.

Last thing I wanted to touch on for this section is the claim that “tdp did [it’s setup] poorly because so much screen time was used for stuff that didn't matter rather than actual set up for the future”. I will say, this point confuses me a little bit. Neither you or I actually know the pay-off of this setup to know that season 4 did it poorly. It’s a little harsh and inaccurate to claim that what the writers chose to focus on “didn’t matter” because we simply don’t know how much it matters yet—that’s the nature of setup.

I have a few guesses—I think the Drake Riders are going to be important next season because they were introduced this season, I think the those 3 Horns will act against Janai, I think Callum may learn how to connect to another primal source—but it’s all conjecture.

To me, every scene in season 4 had some sort of meaning that could be gleaned from it—whether it was lore or character insight, it was important. Yes, I am even talking about the fart jokes in 4x02—I sound crazy I know. But, they (unfortunately (affectionate)) do a very good job of establishing Claudia and Terry’s relationship. It shows how they’re goofy and open with each other, and it provides some fucking CRAZY juxtaposition to the way the two kill Ibis next episode. It humanizes them both, furthering the nuance that I so love from TDP.

And, lets be honest, fart jokes with your loved one’s in real life are hilarious and silly and enjoyable. I’m all for showing kids that you can be gross with your significant other(s).

5. Same Cliff Hanger as Season 1

Like I mentioned before, season 4 is a parallel to season 1. The ending to season 4 is not meant to be as much of an “oh shit” moment as much as it’s meant to draw your attention to season 1 and it’s similarities (which is an “oh shit” moment for me asdfasd).

In fact, it also shows how Viren has sort of regained the confidence he had at the end of season 1—he finally reclaimed his staff and performed dark magic for the first time since his resurrection, effectively closing out the season. He’s back baby!

But he’ll never be the same.

So sure, maybe they’ve done it before, but that’s also what writing a parallel and then putting it into a show is! You repeat things and create patterns in your stories. I’m not really sure how you build themes or narrative motifs without that.

Though, in my opinion season 4′s ending is different in that the suspense comes from Viren finally being committed to freeing Aaravos. Up until now, Viren’s been following Claudia around like a lost puppy, and now he’s leading—things are going to get a lot worse for our protagonists next season, and I can’t wait to watch it!

Conclusion

I don’t really have a prophetic way to close this meta out, but if you made it this far thank you for reading! I’m very passionate about this show and I love the writing and it’s characters.

The nature of analysis is subjective, which means that all of this is just my opinion. If you disagree with me, that’s fine, you are entitled to your own opinion.

Thank you for indulging me :]

I am seeing some of the WORST takes about tdp season 4. Sweet, sweet tumblr users. This season was a lot of set up, not everything was supposed to be explained or resolved, or even "should" have been. Season 4 had to do the heavy leg work of re-establishing characters and arcs and the plot moving foreword. It just needs a little time to be able to act on everything it's now established. It did a good job building off of arc 1, and now we are fully indoctrinated into arc 2!

[xswestallen]

Did you see DP's interview at the con she was at? When the interviewer asked about how Caitlin and KF were bonding, DP said she was disappointed that the show went with more of KF fighting with the team than growing the relationship between the characters. She said she was frustrated with last season too. Do you think she's on unhappy on the show?

I think everyone on the cast was frustrated this season with how their characters were pushed to the side to give Ralph more attention. They seem to all love Hartley Sawyer, but I understand why some of the cast aren’t thrilled when talking about Ralph as a character. There was a lot of great stuff they could have done this season, but Ralph took up all the screen time with his same cycle of feeling insecure, quitting, getting a pep talk, and rejoining the team.

I don’t think Danielle is unhappy on the show, but I do think she’s annoyed not every storyline is given the attention it deserves. I don’t blame her for her frustration. This season was horrible for Caitlin and Killer Frost. Caitlin barely had lines in half the episodes and in two of the three episodes that did focus on her, Caitlin was written out of character.

4x01 was intriguing, but the storyline ended up falling flat by 4x05. Caitlin working for Amunet didn’t make sense and felt so out of character. Why would Caitlin go to Amunet for a cure when she had the one Julian and her mom made? Why would Caitlin continue working for Amunet after realizing that the cure Amunet gave her didn’t work? Why stay away from the team for 6 months? The only episode I liked the Amunet storyline in was 4x09. 

Killer Frost, who was badass last season, even besting Barry on several occasions, was weak this season. She got knocked out by every villain of the week almost instantly. Her and Cisco were sidelined in favor of propping up Ralph. It was an insult to Killer Frost and Vibe fans. We wanted to see these characters we’ve known and loved since the first season to fight alongside Barry, not this new guy who keeps quitting whenever being a hero isn’t convenient!

The evolving relationship between Caitlin and Killer Frost should have been touched on more throughout the season. There were really only two times when we saw it. In 4x15, when Killer Frost told Barry, “Don’t let Caity die.” and in 4x18. I liked how they were becoming a weird kind of friends in 4x18, but that was exactly when Killer Frost was taken away. I think Caitlin and Killer Frost writing notes to each other and building a relationship should have been shown a little in each episode, so that the impact of losing Killer Frost would have been greater for the audience. 

I liked the split personality thing they were going with, because it meant we got to have both Caitlin and Killer Frost instead of just one. But, overall, this season was all a huge letdown for me, in terms of Caitlin/Killer Frost and pretty much every other aspect as well.

[amwritingmeta]

So I saw your monster meta on Monster Movie (thanks btw, it was great). One thing about that episode that bothers me is that when Dean and Sam interview Anna-Marie she’s drinking this giant soda and Sam and Dean keep giving her these weird looks (like even before she says it’s a werewolf) and I just don’t get the point of the soda. If it meant nothing it would be a part of the setting instead of a prop and if it didn’t symbolize something it wouldn’t be so freaking huge, right? Any thoughts?

Hello my lovely!! 

Aw thanks so much, that means a lot! That meta was such a labour of love and it makes me incredibly happy to read that you enjoyed it!! Yayyyy for enjoyment! :)

So this was driving me crazy too, honestly, as I watched the episode and since there was sooooo much to write anyway and I couldn’t find the fucking thread for the giant ass soda and the giant ass beer (oh yeah, I’ll show you in a minute) I just left it well alone. Buttshake, guess what - you asking me this made the visual click in my noggin’. THANK YOU!

Because Monster Movie is all about Dean, right? (well yeah according to me it is anyway and… I mean it is, even if you disagree with my reading) 

And LOOK –>

*excited face like wide grin and raised eyebrows and HAHAHA sounds*

LOOK AT THAT BIG PRETZEL MY LOVELY!

So Dean starts the trend of the Big Things Occupying Your Mouth Visual. And I’m so not sorry for calling this a “penis pretzel” anymore, because it fucking IS a visual aid to underline Dean’s dual personality: mainly that what he’s really trying to overcompensate for throughout this entire goddamn narrative is the fact that he is suddenly so fucking preoccupied with thoughts of dick, of one dick in particular. And that dick is linked to new feelings and that is SCARY AF. 

But COME ON Bob Singer, are you FOR REAL even? (I love this man)

So we get our first proper plant of Jamie saying “Gutten tag” and Dean responding with a slack-jawed “Gutten tag yourself” before exchanging a look with Sam like “Daaamnnnnn” and understandable, because Jamie is gorgeous. Sam spots the sheriff (one of our toxic masculinity representatives in this episode) and he says “Guess that’s our man” (and yes I could so go deep-diving into the feminine/masculine part of the planted visuals of this scene)…

…but let’s focus on Dean, who does this –>

I will never apologise for loving it when penis shaped food in the hands of Dean Winchester are being made to look like he’s giving it a blow job. 

What is all that fast food really about, Dean. Hmmmm? 

Anyway. Here’s the beautiful part. It is not just the penis pretzel that is a phallic symbol in this episode’s visual narrative.

Ed drinks beer from this –>

Yeah. This beer drove me crazy when I watched the episode again and again to write my meta, staring at this fucking scene without being able to actually visually tie it to Dean. It’s his narrative so I just felt there HAD to be a fucking reason for this being here - it is so OVERTLY phallic, and it did not click that the penis pretzel started out huge.

(subtle plant there for Cas’ package?) (or Dean’s desire for said package) 

Ok, it’s actually not sexual, sorry, must not joke (am so tired) - the phallic symbols are actually to do with Dean’s building fear at losing control of himself. The symbolism is here to push the theme of the narrative and is interestingly tying Dean to the man being judged by the sheriff as a nuisance, but empathised with by Jamie (who represents everything Dean needs to embrace to feel whole) 

But there is more! The root of your question, my dear! 

Because I bid you LOOK –>

That, my friends, is a blow job.

So here Dean is also linked (through starting the trend of Big Things Occupying Your Mouth Visual) with the girl giving this soda the time of its life. The girl who is a victim of her lying scumbag boyfriend. 

Or to be more specific, her toxic-masculinity-lies-to-get-in-bed-using-a-dated-ridiculous-line-of-how-men-need-sex-not-to-get-clogged-up-this-show-is-all-about-desconstructing-that-bullshit-sexist-idiocy-and-this-toxic-masculinity-representative-gets-fucking-killed-by-a-werefolf boyfriend. 

To summarise, Dean is linked to the guy who’s considered “weird”, a guy who is judged for it, and Dean is linked to the girl who is a victim of toxic masculinity. 

Yeah. That’s right. Like betcha by golly wow.

With the phallic plants, it’s like the narrative is taunting Dean for trying to overcompensate away from what’s stirring inside him, the way he can’t get Cas out of his head, by throwing the phallic symbols at him after he ate his penis pretzel completely unawares of this being what he was doing, subconsciously engaging with what he really wants while ogling Jamie and making a show of really, really wanting a girl. 

To me this is actually not about him being uncomfortable with his bisexuality. It has everything to do with him being absolutely averse to (because of his upbringing) and terrified by (because of his life history) the thought of feeling things too deeply. And whatever shit Cas is stirring up has the potential of being life changing. And Dean Winchester does not want to change an inch. So dude-bro performing side is kicking up a right fuss going PUSSY PUSSY PUSSY. (Dean’s subconscious whispering dick dick dick)

Oh my God my brain is fried, I wish I could be more articulate for you, but do you get what I’m saying here?

Dean’s the one with dick on the brain - in the most romantic sense of the word - and, at least how I see it, these visuals serve as a very subtle way of informing us of that.

Bob Singer is such a fucking master.

And thanks again and again for focusing me with this question! You just helped me deepen my 4x05 meta! *heart eyes your way*

Oh, let me add this as well: how can we know the beer and the humungous soda aren’t just, idk, for funsies? To me the answer is - the way Ed and Girl drink them. Ed drinks from that huuuuuge cumbersome thing twice and very deliberately, while Girl slurps and slurps and slurps. I mean… It’s only funny if you’re in on the joke and those visual plants don’t make me laugh, they make me frown and wonder why the hell they’re even there. So that’s my reason for thinking they are planted as more than just a visual woah-big-things-should-seem-ridiculous-for-no-reason-and-make-you-giggle. :)

xx