#we KNOW there is... something... between nea and joyd

[vitamiiiiins]

hey. hey do you think when this happened joyd knew allen was nea's host. that's why he grinned like that at the prospect of killing him

[icharchivist]

oh shit wait, dgm250 reactions up

-this is such a cool design from the mind of the problem twins i love it

-I've been saying for YEARS that i didn't believe Allen to be the heart, even when Apo started to obsess with him and everyone started saying he had to be the heart to justify why Apo was after him so bad. Tyki you and i share the same mind. thank you so much for putting it into words i'm going to start yelling. wanna hear my heart theory ag--

Though for equivalency sake i do have to mention that if Allen was the heart, i think Apocryphos would see Tyki say Allen couldn't be the heart and actually roll with it to protect the heart. so i don't think the fact Apo "confirms" Allen isn't the heart actually confirms anything, since on the contrary it's giving him an opportunity to protect the heart by agreeing.

I still think Allen isn't the heart, but Apocryphos's confirmation isn't actually one until we know for sure.

-"You're also obsessed with My Allen" "he's not Your Allen" TELL HIM TYKI, BUT ALSO WTF APO GET THE FUCK AWAY. CREEP.

-So it's attachement that provoked it? bc ngl i kept expecting Joyd took this face out of spite. but does it mean Joyd and Nea used to be close??? Oh the mystery thickens.

-this reaction is so fun lmao

-you're trying to hide something Wisely. I feel that.

SLFHJDLKFJDKLJFDKLFJKLDJFKLDJF

-So Allen not the heart, Tyki wonders why he's so obsessed with him....

but if Joyd and Nea used to be close, wouldn't it make sense of Joyd used to know Past!Allen? So Tyki could have become obsessed with Allen due to vague memories of the past?

and besides of Past!Allen was actually the ex Bookman Apprentice it would also explain why Tyki has been challenging Lavi in particular during fights. NO i'm not letting my ten years old theory dies i have a point i swear (have no point)

-So Wisely is to blame for it??? Makes sense then that the innocence was the thing that more or less broke the lock on Tyki when Allen poisoned him. BUT THEY'RE REMOVING THE LOCK? HELLO???

-wet.

-oh my god Kanda ALREADY reached Mana's grave?!

SHITTT THEY REALLY DIDNT WASTE ANY TIME HOLY SHIT. HOLY SHITTTT.

WE'RE GETTING THERE.

tho seeing baby Allen near Mana's corpse like this is destroying me.

Also add "their loved ones who became akuma are associated to flowers who found their ways down in the mud" to the similitude between Kanda and Allen.

Also never has grave robbing looked this pretty.

God this is gorgeous and stunning.

Final thoughts:

the chapter was so good wtf.

Beautiful art as always, some interesting things regarding the lore. Heart Theory is back on track, we have progress with the Noa memory and how Joyd apparently was affectionate to Nea?? god does Joyd know past!Allen is now the question....

But yeah more questions than not and more recentering some old theories back in topic.

i'm looking forward to see where it's going. dgm amazing as always, incredible chapter.

[jasontoddiefor]

Tyki Mikk is a Clone and I can (almost) prove it

Tyki Mikk is undoubtedly a fan favorite and yet we don’t really know a lot about him. For a character that was created with the purpose of being handsome (cf. D.Gray-Man Manga Volume 5, page 150), he carries a lot of baggage and has a rather unclear past. A theory that has haunted me since I read chapter 198 and has only grown in strength with the most recent arc is that Tyki is in fact a clone of Nea. As far fetched as this seems at start, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting this theory.

1) Tyki’s visible similarity to Nea (and Mana)

One of the first things Wisely remarks on when he meets Tyki is his similarity to “a certain man” (Chapter 187).

This similarity is picked up twice more in the manga. When Allen meets Nea for the first time (cf. chapter 198), he mistakes him for Tyki at first.

And it is brought up a third time by Nea himself in chapter 225 when he says:

To which Tyki, or rather Joyd, has this wonderful reaction:

But more on that guy specifically later. Point being right here is that three different characters, or four if you want to count Road and Wisely separately, acknowledge that Tyki resembles Nea a lot, down to the man himself. How does that saying go again? Once An Accident, Twice A Coincidence, Three Times A Pattern? This is something that repeatedly gets brought up again. And this is without going into detail on how much Tyki resembles not only Nea, but said man’s identical twin as well. Just look at that dashing long hair!

And take this from chapter 158 as well

Pretty long haired boy Mana is nothing new as of chapter 218 and 219:

Another interesting point here is that Tyki is the exact same height as the Earl in human form! They’re both 188cm tall. Nea, on the other hand, is listed at being 177cm. This could just be that Nea unfortunately ended up as the shorter twin, or, we take into consideration what Mana tells Allen/Red in chapter 238:

He remembers being seventeen, which means that he and Nea probably weren’t done growing yet when the “Earl” corrupted Mana. (It also kind of makes everything about Nea more hilarious if you realize he’s just seventeen.) Tyki, however, is 26 when we first meet him and should be around 27 now. He is an actual adult and not bound to hit another growth spurt.

But to summarize the first argument: Tyki looks uncannily similar to Nea and Mana and the manga keeps pointing it out so we can assume this resemblance is important.

2) Cloning is possible in canon

Now the second point is just here to point out that we know cloning to be possible. Funnily, Tyki’s resemblance to Nea gets pointed out just before the Alma Arc, which very much deals with the concept of reincarnation – only there we have the brains of deceased Exorcists transplanted into youthful bodies.

However, it’s not as if something like DNA hasn’t been mentioned before. Specifically, it has been called “Helix of life” by no other than maybe-former-Bookman but definitely First-Nea-host Past!Allen in chapter 221:

So let’s assume that, in the aftermath of Nea’s “death”, PastA didn’t just wait around for Nea to wake again, but tried to find a vessel for him. Messing around with this helix, and whatever other dubious science and magic this world had to offer, and created a new body to host Nea. Except he failed, and the result is Tyki.

But if that is so, shouldn’t Tyki remember anything about that? Good question. Time for some more shady weird stuff about Tyki.

3) The Missing Years

In chapter 202, while the Earl is resting, Tyki talks to Road. I don’t speak Japanese, so I can’t verify which translation is more accurate, but I’ve found these two:

Now the official German one also goes with a similar translation as the second one here, implying that Tyki has been with the Earl for ten years. In any case, the fact that this decade at all gets mentioned is quite odd because it doesn’t match up with what we know of Mana travelling with Allen. Cross calls Allen a “ten-year-old brat” (chapter 208) when he looks after him. So between Mana travelling with Allen and current canon, only 6 years have passed – what are up with the other 4 that are supposedly within this decade? We don’t have a definite age for how old Allen was when he met Mana, but I’d say around 7 or older. That’s still not enough to fill out the decade they speak about here.

Now, presuming that it does in fact refer to Tyki staying with the Earl for that time, we’re either left with assuming that the Earl acted as a separate entity as we see in 218, or that Tyki’s memories are just flat out wrong.

4) Tyki Mikk’s Canon-Typical Ignorance AKA The Baby of The Family

The more often Tyki appears, the more we see how much he actually doesn’t know about the going-ons of the war, or even himself. This goes back as far as the Ark Arc in chapter 130 with the Earl pointing out that:

So this form is apparently something that all Noah of Pleasure can take on, a sort of second stage of awakening. Still, it feels significant that Tyki separates his life so much into “black” and “white”, “Noah” and “human”, going as far as suppressing a part of his Noah. It puts him in direct opposition to Skinn, who was more or less entirely consumed by his Noah memories. Though, perhaps this is also just a narrative ploy because a character with the ability to chose is, frankly speaking, fuck off overpowered and the only reason why Tyki isn’t constantly leveling battlefields is probably that he just doesn’t know how to apply himself.

Regardless, Tyki’s ignorance also becomes visible in chapter 187 again when he wonders about his Noah name:

Nobody else reacts like he does, even though the other Noah haven’t been awake as long as he has and also should have retained the same memory damage as Joyd after Nea’s murder spree. Yet Tyki feels a little like the baby of the family, still learning and growing while everyone else is already in the know, which can’t be too far from the truth if we look at chapter 225:

Wisely and Road definitely know that something went down and kept it from Tyki for so long for reasons. So besides Allen learning the truth sometime in the future, Tyki is also heading towards some kind of realization – and honestly, what better than the fact that the man who enjoys his freedom and roam so much, was artificially created?

Road could have manipulated his subconsciousness, his memories. It’s a miracle really that the Earl hadn’t had a breakdown around Tyki already given how much he looks like Nea. And if Tyki really awoke as a Noa a decade ago, then eh would have been right the age Nea was when he died. The Earl should have reacted in one way or another.

Other small details that don’t add up is a) the claim that Tyki and Sheril are actual brothers. They have different last names, which would imply that they are perhaps rather half siblings, sharing one parent, or maybe they just aren’t related at all in the first place. The other thing is that Nea recognizing Tyki’s face immediately after confronting Mana about his changed appearance just adds even more suspicion.

5) TLDR

Tyki is either a clone or something else messy went down because there’s no way that there’s a natural Nea and Mana copy running around who also just so happens to be a Noah. No way.

Thanks for coming to my  TED talk I’m never writing meta again this was a nightmare to post.

[maskedjoker]

We are getting really close to the scene in lost fragment of snow that was genuinely confusing in the book, and it's the scene were everyone in the circus is killed. I think what we will probably get is a scene were mana finally ends up giving into despair after he is hit and then allen is fed to a lion.

I think that with more current info, i can say for sure that sleeve earl and mana are a hybird. This will likely cause a resurgence of sleeve earl into taking over the body and becoming whole. This only lasts for a short time however and when cross confronts him after the rest of the circus has died from the audience turning into akuma(which i suppose are implied to be constantly just around the earl and is probably one of the many reasons cross warned Allen to stay away) some exchange of words or damage causes a lots of control. This damage however also hurts mana(or potentially just being forced out off control) causing him to loose even more memories as seen when mana and Allen reunite the next day.

Now i think we can agree that sleeve earl exists as a third entity, especially since her recent art exhibit interview, as she talked about the suit being a super sophisticated golem. I think in this case as with tim and lero yhat "golem" refers to AI. Id argue with the weird phrasing like helix of life and all the biotech style that magic is more often than not just more advanced technology, and wherever the noahs came from likely was, hence why they say they only seem strong because we have become so weak. This is only further shown with innocences resemblance to machines like its gear like parts and percentage resonance.

The noah memories in general i think are some kind of AI that passes through generation lines, carrying significant portions of its past forward and then fusing with a similar person in their lineage. For example early on road would have been just road, then through some means either became an AI(or was given a piece of someone that counts as one under golem, its unclear). Regardless once connected to the noah memory, it acts like a save file and becomes more sophisticated with time. It carries each life and gives all those memories, feelings and drives to a new body. So new road would remember being road, her life and everything, but also the life they had been living up until the two combined. Over time the noah memory keeps getting larger and larger to the point new experiences are so small, relatively speaking, that it overrides much more than normal. Since they are fuzed as one being they likely cant be separated without mutually assured destruction, were the current entity will die and any remains will not be the origionals, if anything remains at all. An example of this is that tyki could not be made human by Allen I their fight i the arc, despite having a blade that should destroy only part of him. Admittedly tyki is a special case though, and more tyki backstory is needed.

Changes from body to body become more subtle, but the base, which likely has a distinct core function as seen by its response to certain tasks and ideas, remains a strong aspect. This creates an almost reincarnation like effect for them, needing to only find a new body to continue.

The suit is like this, but different. I don't know how the original earl split, but i do think that some aspect of him was placed on the suit. I would like to say its the original version of the noah memories of the earl and nea got like a brand new copy, but i actually have no idea what memories he has of being past earl so its mostly a guess. Regardless the noah actually all seem to transform in some way when they get mega pissed. Im looking at you skinn, jasdevi, and tyki/joyd. So the suit is likely that kind of thing, but way more distinct and capable of acting autonomously. Since they all have different forms it makes sense that his would also be unique. They all probably represent some inner desire related to their memory. Skinn is just rage so big angry man works fine. Jasdero and devit are bonds so they want most to be one. Tyki got all fucked up before he changed so i got nothing, but it had a heavy does of sadism, which I guess is pleasure? Taking into account that killing in horrible graphic ways is his guilty pleasure it kinda makes sense.

So because of that, this sentient AI is constantly trying to pair with half a fucking brain because nea and mana only share one brain cell. Some kind of resistance from mana or strain causes him to constantly fall ill or comatose. Now to be clear on naming, sleeve earl does not refer to themselves as adam in the mirror scene nor does he refer to mana as adam, and only uses "we" when talking to mana about being the earl. Oddly enough the earls self pronouns are we, using wagashi which is kind of like the japanese equivalent of the royal we used in europe for the entirety of the series. For the record, mana in the flashbacks uses male or single they pronouns, i don't remember if he uses boku or watashi, but he uses at least one if not both.

So from this it seems millennium earl is a title, used by whatever is paired with the suit. Adam is the original name of the noah, and is the preferred name of the current earl aside from the title.

This circumstance was likely caused by the rest of the noah, who are using the earl for something related by the pillar. His separation either by accident or by intent was likely by the hands of his family trying to keep control for their ends. This is why the current earl is called a broken puppet and has so many things around him related to acting and stage plays. He is playing a role, the red clown to allens white clown as stated in the ark arc. He even wears a mask. His memories and mind have been damaged though, therefore broken. However broken puppet for both allen and the earl could also refer to a puppet that doesnt work as a double meaning, implying they can no longer be controlled or puppeted.

It is also implied that he is still unaware of this betrayal, but it is likely nea does to some degree as it would explain why he became a traitor and killed his own family. To be clear, i dont think all of the noah know everything, and i dont think they dont actually care for the earl. It seems they still genuinely follow him to their death and see him as one of their own, especially in cases like road, tyki and wisely.

Now early i said that different generations of noah would cope woth reincarnating differently. Since the earl only died once before 7000 years ago, id say resetting to a new body with only 17 years would be just smashed flat by any algorithm with that much data. However manas feelings are still the newest, and so still have an impact even on the current earl.

Now we come to resurrecting mana. How? Why? Well i dont know. But my guess is whatever part was the memories of mana for the 20 or so years he lived, or at least his memories at death, are in allen. His curse and weird hallucinations of mana seem to suggest it. Alternatively that part of his soul may have passed on, or it fuzed with the noah memory making the origional mana part of the hive and much like tyki and his noah memories cannot be seperated. Not good regardless.

As two additional things, i want to mention that hoshino is a twin and has always been obsessed with it, so having twins in her book was inevitable. What is extra weird is hoshino was actually going to be a triplet, but either her or her sister absorbed it before birth. She has mentioned it in dgm interviews and i cant PROVE it translates to anything in the plot but its suspicious. She also still list mana, nea and the earl as distinct in every book up to date in extra novels and at the start of her books. Oh and her favorite hat for the earl right now? The one featured on the most recent chapter? Has two faces on the front that are visible, and one in the back thats hidden, and the most recent art has the back face as the only one visible, angrily staring allen down. Great art foreshadowing if im right. Its also usually sleeve earl, if not exclusively, that wear it.

The second thing is mana talking about love and drive in the most recent chapter just brings up the earl having the noah memory of love or devotion or something for me. Ive written about it before but it just seems to fit. This character is all about that from the ability to fuze loved ones together to the hearts he talks with and his drives being based on grand acts of devotion, being by their side etc. Mana also loved and adopted both and dog and a homeless child and keeps talking about how the world is so beautiful despite all the bad. The earl literally acts like the whole noah clans mom by his own words and cooks for them, and both of them go out of their way to be cartoony to break tension. The earl literally goes and buys a single red rose from a poor girl while tyki pontificate on how he doesnt act like a villain. He doesnt take an umbrella because he wants to feel the rain. He talks about how what he does is in human nature and requires a connection between two people. He is even designed with his ideal colors as red and purple with white, as well as being designed after flowers. I know this probably doesnt make sense, but its stuck in my head.

[dumbsnakefan]

Thou Shalt Love

Chapter 2: In You I Take Refuge

A/N: This took longer than expected but here it is! Also, if you want me to tag you in the next chapter please let me know!

Hidden away in a small Inn in a town surrounded by only nature, Nea watched over Allen’s prone figure. A thin layer of sweat covered his nephew’s body from exertion. His mind still tried to fight the inevitable of his awakening. Well, Nea supposed that Allen was too stubborn to ever give in so easily. Not that it wouldn’t make a difference in the end. The Noah memories were like an unrestrained storm as they tore into the brain.

Letting out an aggravated sigh Nea said to himself, “Why did that bastard Cross have to die on me like that? He always manages to piss me off.” His eye twitched as he remembered the debts the man had hoisted upon his former host. Despite all his hatred for the General there were too many questions left unanswered. From what Timcanpy had shown him Allen had forgotten everything. What’s more, he had gotten younger. It was like trying to put together a puzzle without most of the pieces.

Had Cross not had answers for that at least Nea could have used his magical skills. That four eyed idiot had done something strange and outside his own abilities. As best he could figure, however, their “separation” hadn’t accounted for the Noah gene. He could laugh if not for the absolute mess of it all.

There was something strange about this memory as well. It was like none of the others as far as he could tell. Allen’s inner Noah was swaddling him in a thorny embrace, like a babe in need of protection. Compared to his own, a destructive thing that had him clawing at his skin in agony, it was soft. Nea felt an urge to pull his nephew close and never let go again. The strangeness of Allen’s memory was oddly fitting.

Lacking any new information to dissect Nea could only move on to other things. Specifically how the Noah family would react to this. Like Nea they had to have felt the surge of a new memory breaking into the world. They would want to pull him away from the dreaded 14th as soon as they could, lest he “corrupt” their new brother. A smile stretched across Nea’s lips as he swore to keep his dearest friend by his side.

What a family reunion they’d be having. If Mana had any real sanity left Nea would have liked to share one last tender moment before the end. Fate and that detestable God were not so kind as to give any Noah such a merciful gift though. They would forever seek to destroy them for being in the way. Should Nea succeed he would put an end to their farce. His brother would be freed at long last.

Keeping Allen far away from this whole affair was very important. The attachment he’d formed with Mana could turn into a crushing weight when the truth was revealed. Those bonds of father and son were already so entangled with tragedy; Nea wouldn’t let another disaster play out. Mana’s insanity could drag them all down if left unchecked.

From what Timcanpy had shown of Allen’s time as Red, his brother had been attached at the hip with him. Nea knew that he’d forgotten it all just by the way he treated his nephew. That didn’t mean that Mana wasn’t drawn to him, oh no. Even when not a wisp of Nea’s presence had been visible the Earl had targeted Allen. Drawn like a moth to a flame, they circled each other. Now under the calming lull of the Noah memory inside Allen Mana would chase him wholeheartedly.

Then there was the other Noah to consider. Road and Joyd seemed to have the strongest bond with Allen of the family. While the others weren’t as close, they all appeared interested when interacting with him. Being a true part of the family could only grow their connection. It made Nea sick just thinking about it. The need to keep Allen close and out of their grubby hands echoed from his own Noah.

Wasn’t keeping Allen by his side the best way to make sure he was safe? Those disgusting roaches that scuttled about the Order were still searching for Allen. Nea had seen how easily they had hurt their beloved comrade. All throughout the past Timcanpy had shown Nea there had been pain. His nephew’s past was a constant spiral of suffering. Taking him away from the world that was so ready to tear him apart could only be a kindness.

Tension had built to a boiling point in Nea’s body and he forced himself to release it. In an attempt to calm down he scouted closer to the bed. A new bead of blood pooled along Allen’s stigmata that Nea wiped away. Unconsciously he pushed into the contact. Warmth bloomed in Nea’s chest. Seeing his dearest friend like this, utterly peaceful, was something he’d truly missed.

His senses registered the Noah memory shift from it’s dormant state and Nea braced for another wave of pain. More blood flowed down from Allen’s forehead as he became restless. The once lax expression of sleep twisted in pain. That’s when the screaming started, scratching Allen’s throat raw. It was hard not to wince at the sheer volume of his screams.

As the screams faded out Nea felt a new presence join them. Annoyed and reluctant to leave Allen’s side Nea turns to face the intruder. Standing before him is the Demon Eye, expression a mask of indifference. Rage so obviously simmers behind the facade but Nea finds it as threatening as a wet kitten.

His smile is packed full of malice as he says, “Didn’t know they’d let you come alone to see me kid.” The twitch of annoyance from Wisely’s reincarnation is so sweet. “You’d think with how easily I killed you last time you would all be a bit more careful.” Bloodlust oozes off Nea in waves, making the air thick with it.

Only when Allen’s scream rise back up does he stop. Nea is so tempted to return to his side to comfort him. The possibility of an attack is what holds him back. Wisely would be more than happy to slit his throat and take Allen away for good; or at least attempt to. There was no way Nea would give him that kind of opening.

“Would it kill you to be nicer, dearest 14th? I’m here to give you some friendly advice after all.” The moniker has Nea gnashing his teeth. He knows that smug bastard is enjoying himself. What an asshole.

Tilting his head Wisely says, “Like you’re one to talk. You really hold the title of world's biggest asshole.” Of course the little creep was reading his mind. Even in his new life Wisely refused to learn what privacy means.

Moving closer to the other Noah, Nea glares down with cold eyes. “Cut this bullshit and tell me why you’re really here.”

“We won’t let you keep him from us.” The brat dares to step closer to Allen and Nea watches him like a hawk for a single misstep. “You can’t hide no matter how hard you try. Someday soon we’ll bring our brother home, where he belongs.”

Something in Nea snaps. Anger grips his heart like a vice. Unwilling and unable to hold back, he shoots towards Wisely. His hand wraps around the bastard's neck. Blood drips from where his fingernails bite into WIsely’s skin as Nea squeezes his windpipe. The choked panic gives him no satisfaction. Painting the walls red with his blood is what he needs now.

His grip tightens, drawing a wheeze from the pathetic Noah. “He’s mine. Allen is mine.” Nea says with unhinged glee. “You can never take him from me. I’ll kill every single one of you if you try.”

It’s only when a burst of stabbing pain sweeps over Nea’s mind that he returns to reality. He let’s go reluctantly, Wisely falling at his feet. Such a shame he couldn’t kill him, but Nea is patient. Now is not the right time to crush Wisely beneath his foot. Later he’ll make sure to make his end painful.

Between satisfying coughing fits Wisely manages to bite out, “Ru-Road said to, guh, give you a warning for old t-times sake.” The venom behind the glare he gives Nea is almost impressive. “Shouldn’t have listened to her. You deserve to watch as your world crumbles around you and you fail.” It makes him laugh, the thought that Nea would lose to the likes of him.

Wisely’s face twists up in amusement. Nea keeps himself in check as he moves towards Allen. Fighting this close to Allen could only end in disaster. Even as the rat bastard patted his nephew’s head he held back. Truly, his restraint was worthy of the highest praise.

“I can’t wait to see what our new brother is capable of. He was already such an interesting human...” The little shit was lost in his own mind as he brushed hair off Allen’s forehead. It’s a herculean effort on Nea’s behalf to stay his hand. Perhaps killing him was worth the risk after all?

However, what Wisley said next stopped him dead in his tracks. “I do wonder why the Earl is already so attached to Allen?” What? No, this can’t possibly be happening; it’s too early. “I knew that you’d have answers. There’s something slipping just outside my reach, no matter how hard I search.”

Desperately Nea snaps his mind shut to leave only unrelated drivel in its wake. He needs to throw the Demon Eye Noah off his scent. Now. “Why don’t you ask Mana yourself?” The wince he gets is a good sign. Raising his voice and stepping into Wisley’s space Nea tells him, “Now get out of my sight.”

Gold meets gold as they assess each other for weakness. Finding nothing, Wisley moves to finally leave them be. With every step Nea feels better. On the threshold of the door, however, he turns back. Body going tense Nea prepares for whatever the creep plans to throw his way next.

“Before I go, you might want to find a new hiding place. There are some Akuma out there who aren’t very good a t playing nice.” An Explosion rocks the building, punctuating his statement. The string of curses that Nea lets out would have a sailor blushing. “Hope you enjoy yourself 14th!” His smug face watches on as Nea fumbles for their things. The Ark gate behind him swallows Wisely up but Nea pays it no mind.

Screams fill the air in a terrible crescendo of horror. With Allen out of commision Nea can only run. Scooping up his struggling nephew Nea makes sure Tim grabs their luggage. Ignoring the town below he calls up his own gate and the three disappear from sight. The humans left behind in that remote town are mowed down with mercy. Chaos creeps around every corner and the scent of blood blankets the air in a red mist. No one will discover the scene of pure carnage until weeks later.

[icharchivist]

(I think,you explained your thoughts well) I can't believe it just hit me that the Pillar looks like a giant sword. I'm probably super late on this. It makes sense since the Pillar, like sword, came to cut down life and is seen as a fearsome weapon. Also it makes me wonder something. What if CC is part of the last Pillar. It might be why the Pillar showed up in Allen's dream and talked to him or why when CC cut Tykki it awoke Joyd's memory instead and caused him to go on a rampage. For some -

2 reason it’s intensely attached to Allen and wants to keep him alive. Even save him from Neah by allowing Apocryphos to merge w/him and not letting him fall. Come to think of it. Allen attacking Mana w/CC is what awoke his Earl side. Maybe CC is (or was) trying to urge Allen to become strong enough so Allen can fight the Earl and attack him until CC awakens him to his Pillar status. That could be one of Allen’s intended destinies. Destroy Time. Which is either the Earl or actual time itself.-

3 Allen somehow knew the original Pillar somehow. If it’s because he was once Bookman Jr then it’s possibly because canon hints the Bookman are aware of all secret history of all worlds. Bookman Sr most likely knows as much as Cross does. Allen has been called by the Campbell’s as the man who knows everything. Whatever Allen’s history is the Pillar knows him. Allen might actually even know how to stop the Pillar and Dark Matter. That’s why both sides want him. The Pillar wants to turn him into-

4 a Destroyer. Allen can defeat the Noah but possibly unleash another threat that’s just as bad. It’s all really confusing because has Adam always been the Pillar? Or was he a normal guy forcibly given the role of Earl after the previous one did it’s job. Is Mana the Pillar in Allen’s dreams talking to him from a repressed memory. Again either way Allen apparently is known by the Pillar. The question is if the Pillar and the Heart are different or the same and what that means for Allen?

(aah thanks fkdjhf i’m glad i make some sense after all)

And ohh good point about the pillar looking like a sword in a way. Really feels like the striking weapon to destroy it all huh. 

There is a good point there… why Tyki’s Noah self awoke upon contact with Allen’s innocence but Skinn died upon contact with Kanda’s? So far we always said it was a question of intend - Kanda wanted to destroy all of Skinn, but Allen was specifically trying to destroy only the Noah side.  But would Allen’s specifically work as a trigger reminding of the Pillar, huuuh….

the thing is that i think, if the Pillar is partially made of innocence, i could see it being from the Cube itself before it broke into pieces through the world - so it would be All Innocences at once. The Order believes the Cube broke into pieces after what happened 7000years ago, if we believe them and think the Pillar was the fusion of innocence and earl essence, then any innocence would count. But i suspect we still have the idea of at least powerful core to the innocence with the Heart and the likes of Apocryphos.

As for CC’s awakening i don’t know - perhaps? I think it as the first time CC was in contact with Dark Matter so had reasons to awake, i don’t know how much the Earl essence is to take into account there, but it could… it would give a very calculating image of CC at this point tho oof.

But yeah good point about the Destroyer of Time thing, i was thinking about that too. The prophecy is there, we know Bookman believes in it, and we know the Order interprets it as killing the Earl, but what if it implies merging with him, becoming the Pillar again? Man would you imagine tho, Allen’s destiny being to merge with Mana to “destroy it all”, especially considering how many pieces of him Allen already has in him? oof.

As for the Bookman to me the fact allen is caught into all of this and knows of those stuff and is called the man who knows everything does hint to Bookman!Past!Allen all over again and i really can’t see it otherwise.

It would make sense if Bookmen knew more than the Order, remember that the Order only had been around for a couple of centuries and that Bookman is the one who told the Order about the existance of the Noah after Rewinding Town, which even Lavi knew about at this point. They had been in the order for a couple of years at this point but they held onto that information until Road appeared and sent a message directly to the Order. So i’d be inclined to think the Bookmen know more about it that they let on and are probably closer to the truth than the Vatican ever was.

The Pillar seems to litterally be a double edged sword, since you brought up how it looks like a sword too. Who knows how it would work once it’s wielded… Hell it’s really hard to determinate since we legit just learnt about it. 

As for the question about Adam, that’s… the huge… huge question….

Mana and Nea are special because out of all Noah, they were those who weren’t born “human” per se, since they were made by the spliting of the Earl. I feel like this is not something say Tyki would be able to do. Hell, we can compare to the actual Noah Twins with the Jasdebi who seems to just be two people who awoke the memories of the Bound at some point, and yet… So, Mana and Nea’s nature itself is already super weird.What does it tell us about Adam? Humm…. I think it was told he was there for a few thousands year at least, before spliting at least. That this sadness of carrying all of this on his shoulders is why he split. 

So perhaps Adam is not like the others Noah, not awaken in human genes but an actual entity that keeps on living, like a heart of dark matter perhaps? But who the hell knows……

And here we really need to wait bc the chapter really put a spin away from the Noah mythos. We can’t really use the Bible as a starting point here. In it it was told that Noah was chosen by God for his family to survive. But according to Road and how it came out of nowhere, it doesn’t seem like Noah was chosen…. Or if it was, it was forcefully. The merging that is…. 

As for “if Mana is the Pillar” that would raise the question since in Allen’s dream the Pillar seems to talk to him: 

To me it doesn’t feel like the Pillar is having any respect or love for Allen and even less so for Nea. If that’s a memory that is. 

But we also have a Memory of Mana taking Allen away in this place…

Gaahh i really don’t knoooow anymore.

Personally i still feel like the Pillar may be a merging between the Earl and the Innocence in some way or another, and that it brought destruction : Hoshino likes to work in pairs with a secret third elements linking those pairs, so i wouldn’t personally look for One And Only thing to justify the existance of the Pillar. 

And how much would the “spliting of the Pillar” change what the innocence and the earl would want??

And indeed what would it mean for Allen?

I’m still so confused by all of this and at this point i feel like we’re really missing too big of pieces to look at the full picture yet… it’s complicateeeeed.

When we think we understand a bit of DGM we get proven wrong big time HUH.

[icharchivist]

What's your opinion on how the Earl AND Mana view Nea/the 14th ? I've seen theories saying that the Earl did want Nea alive and kicking and was mad at Mana for killing Nea, and other saying the Earl wanted Nea dead but Mana didn't, or that they both wanted Nea dead. It's especially confusing since the Earl say that he 'want to help the 14th' but is pretty damn enraged by the 14th betraying him(whatever that betrayal is),

Heya!

Oh my it’s always hard to discuss all of them huh

I don’t think Mana wanted Nea dead. He utterly broke down when he realized he killed him, and it’s only his reflexion - the Earl part of him - that seemed to make a better sense of the situation. 

Erg and that’s where the disclaimers about the Earl come in place because it’s kind of an identity clusterfeast so i need to clarify myself a bit:

Originally, There was the First Earl, who split himself in half in Mana and Nea. so far so good. But both of them had the Noah essence of the Earl split inside of them as well (that’s what I called the Earl in the previous line). They were also left into the Suit that later started to behave a lot like Allen’s innocence around Mana and started to haunt Mana with his duty, so i wouldn’t leave it out that the Suit is at least… Innocence-like and was kinda sentient, perhaps carrying the Will of the Earl?

Then there’s the cluserfeast of Mana D. Campbell himself who upon pressing of his reflection blew up his own face and became Mana Walker, we aren’t sure yet if he had forgotten a lot about Nea or no, just though that he may have taken a break from the Earl itself. And then the Earl caught back and “Mana Walker” Died, and his current identity is the one of Adam. 

I make this distinction for what is Adam/The Earl like how we can mean Tyki/Joyd, you feel me? And due to Mana/Adam’s identity this PSA seems. Important. Even if it’s probably me drawing conclusions.

Point is, Mana loved Nea. And those feelings carried over to Adam for certain, considering how their embrace happens in the recent chapters. There is love between the two brothers. 

I think i’ve read somewhere that while Nea’s Noah massacre started 35 years ago it was only brought to an end 17 years ago. So it means that for about 18 years Mana didn’t manage to kill Nea, whenever it was physically or psychologically.

Now the “Earl essence” I mentioned - I think he wants both half to be together again? The way Mana “killed” Nea was by “devouring him” according to Nea. To get Nea’s essence and be one with him again. It just happens that Nea managed to survive enough to put that remaining essence and his own sense of self in Past!Allen. 

And Adam is a bit of a mix of the two. He has Mana’s love for his brother but he doesn’t remember why, and he has the drive of the Earl’s essence/the Suit that pushes him to “devour” Nea. (when he attacks him in recent chapters this is what he’s trying to do). 

Not to mention that a Noah’s death is felt by every Noah (as seen with Skin’s death) so Nea’s massacre was felt by everyone else back then. Even if Adam tried to erase this part of his memories I think the pain he mentions to Road when he gathers the Noah again may still be fresh in his mind, even if he can’t put on it the exact memories of what happened.

So we have an Earl with very conflicted identities and opinions in his mind about Nea- of Love, but of resentment as well. Of Making them whole.

I think one of the most important piece of trivia to get to get all i’m saying is Hoshino’s own view on the “spliting subject” that she elaborated in this interview of the fanbook. Most specifically that Hoshino has a twin and therefore think of every characters in the story in pairs due to that, because for her, her twin is a part of her. But she also mentions this:

In truth, I was originally a triplet. One of us vanished inside the womb, so only my sister and I were born. Because of that, it was normal to talk at home with the premise the third child was there. My mother also gave them a name, so I’ve used it in conversation since childhood. I would think “Where are they? What are they doing?” or “Couldn’t they be inside of me, breathing and living as I do?” That sort of thing. The Noah’s memories are somehow born from such a feeling.

And one last point of trivia is that the word for twins that Hoshino often uses in conversation is “ a part of a whole” which also explain the mentality of the “Two becoming one” motif that we see a lot, like specifically with the Twins Jasdebi who “were one craddle, and from that craddle they become two” and who can become one all together. Honestly Jasdebi should serve more as a parallel exemple of Mana and Nea but i don’t know how to elaborate it. 

I bring it up because it kinda changed all my view on the characters dynamic while also strengthening some points of theories i only had vaguely in head back then, so i feel it’s important to get my point.

(also check the links i linked, Noro is a dear friend of mine and did an amazing work translating all of that)

I think, following Hoshino’s experience, Mana and Nea are twins- two part of a same whole, two fragments that must be put together to be whole. But they both live with a third one inside of them: the Earl essence. Something that was lost to them, that they didn’t “grow up with” the same way, as it was in the background, and that is now pushing them. And I could see that the essence is trying to put the pieces back together.

So it’s not really a question of “wanting to kill Nea”. It was a question of “bringing them all back together again”. But that would raise the question..; the Earl essence has always lived inside both of them, fuzed in their core like the Noah might be. Maybe to him it wouldn’t make a difference to have the two of them fuzing forever, because he’s already a part of them, and instead it would be important for him to have all those pieces connecting again, so he wouldn’t be devided between two. But for Mana and Nea who grew up together with only this “third being” in the background, “fuzing” would mean “the absence of the other” even if they are inside their bodies. They would feel the absence and the loss. And that would explain Mana’s struggle when he didn’t completely manage to kill Nea the first time, or how much he misses Nea and wants Nea in the family without specifically wanting to devour him (after all, the “Devour” attempt only started after the Earl essence took over control of Adam when Nea was threatening him).

So they love Nea. They didn’t try to “kill him” rather than just “making him part of their whole”, i think. But Mana especially grew up with and loved Nea, so this add conflicts to their actions, as “fuzing” would come with “absense” akin to death that the Earl essence wouldn’t feel. 

As for Nea’s motivation in all of this, i admit it remains too much blurry for me. He wanted to “be the Earl”so i guess he comes from the point where Mana would be the one having the full control if they all fuzed. Which, considering how much he devoured of Nea’s Noah essense, it might be right. But Nea’s goals are still too blurry to drive conclusions.

I hadn’t read dgm in forever though so my thoughts might be blurry there, but that’s what i remember and how i interpeted it? 

I hope it isn’t too confusing because god knows dgm can be confusing.

Take care!

[icharchivist]

The fact that Wisely jumped on the 'like Allen' alongside Tyki and Road is hilarious and intruiging. In canon he outright says he likes Allen after seeing him defy the 14th and the Earl. He wants Allen to join the family. In the Komui Talks when Allen is labelling everyone (lol, he calls Tyki a molester) and says Timcanpy is his little brother. Wisely jumps in and labels himself, Road and Tyki as Allen's little siblings and asks Allen to take care of them so they can be 5 siblings together. -

2 Oh wait. I just realized Wisely knows Allen is way older then 16. Wisely wasn't being a tease. He was being serious because technically Allen is older then them and would be their big brother. XD I wonder if Wisely and Past Allen had a relationship of any kind? Maybe Wisely wasn't as harsh to Nea as the other Noahs were and developed some friendship or interest in Allen?

(well Tyki did play with Allen’s heart #NeverForgiveNeverForget)

And very good mentions :’DD God tbh I love Wisely, even if i can’t quite outline him bc he’s so mysterious, but i adore how he behaves in general, he’s such a child ahah. 

It’s incredible how he immediatly joined Tyki and Road onto the liking Allen train and the forceful adoption stuff. In a way it’s kinda funny too bc you expect them to be the three people who would have... the strongest opinions about Nea? Both Wisely and Road had been there in the past and Tyki looking alike Nea seems to be a deliberate message from Joyd considering Joyd’s reaction when Nea points it out - so by all account, them specifically liking Allen because he tells Nea to stick it (between Road anchoring Allen reminding him he’s Allen during Alma’s flashbacks, Tyki’s behavior change from Allen to Nea recently, and well, Wisely liking that he defies Nea and  the Earl like you say) probably says a lot about how they all view Nea... Or at least know how much determination and strength of character it would take to reject him. 

and considering Tyki’s “you would be no fun to play poker with [while this conflicted]”, there’s a huge part i think of liking how much Allen actually fights back, that there’s something they all admire in how he does so.

Anyway about Allen being way older than 16, that’s very rich from Wisely “I remember all my past life even if my new host is 17″ if he believes it allows him to be younger than Allen. Likewise for Road “i’m actually perhaps in my 50s”. IF we take Past!A’s likely age into account, if we think he gave his body away at what, 20? That would make Allen 35 or so, and the only one he really outlives there is Tyki (Allen being older than Tyki is so funny to me though), and even there with Tyki having awakened Joyd..... 

I mean they’re the Team “we all look rather young but we actually all are Old because of stupid reasons we aren’t completely aware of” and that’s hilarious.

But for Allen to be their “big brother” i could see it have to go with how much responsability he can take too. I mean the manga goes out of its way to make fun of how very uneducated Tyki is, Road loves to behave childlike, and Wisely is... Honestly probably on part with the twins on how much Teenage Drama he can play at once. And we know him and Tyki team up to drive Sheryl nuts by how dirty and unfancy like they can get. This is the sort of immaturity that Allen is ways past (shame you hate the 14th Sheryl, Allen would be much more of a poster child for the fancy society than any of your brothers). Like say, Allen being quite organized to pay his debts, to be responsible, while the others are just #yolmt (you only live multiple times). 

So I could also completely see them decide Allen is a big brother just to try to drive him crazy knowing he’s more responsible than any of them anyway. Which Allen would be SO DONE about, why are THOSE  the family who’s trying to adopt him, not only are they genocidal, they’ve decided to be the most annoying little siblings just to annoy him.

Finally about Wisely meeting Past!A tbh I think it is strongly implied Wisely would have known if only because Wisely can read the mind of the others Noah, so he must have caught sight of Past!A in Nea’s mind. whenever he met him or not (I guess it really depends on how close Wisely was to Nea - I’d say Nea killing him first would be reason enough to believe they weren’t close but it’s actually a strategic choice to kill “guy who can read all your thoughts” first when you prepare a mass slaughter. Which honestly would be even worse if Nea and Wisely did get along. Imagine that; Them being mostly friendly bc yea Wisely reads his mind so he can’t exactly hate him nor find him weird like the others Noah and then BAM ultimate betrayal, no wonder he would cheer for the kid who rejects Nea), Wisely must have at least some idea of which kind of person Past!A was before the slaughter. And I can see him come back to life and meet Allen and suddenly connect the dots and “wait is that... is that Nea’s boytoy???? it’s NEA’S NEW BODY???? Road, Road where are you we need to talk gossips because I REMEMBER THIS GUY WHAT DID HE DO. .... Wait and now he’s rejecting Nea?? *takes out the popcorns* This is amazing, u go new Allen u go. Eat shit Nea.”

So yeah I could at least see it like that i guess xD Which is hilarious to me i love the Noah tbh. 

[icharchivist]

Considering Nea is a part of the Earl and inside Allen. I bet Crown Clown is also a part of the Heart. I mean all Innocence technially are. But CC might have been directly torn off from the Heart itself and that's why the Heart had to sleep for awhile. It would fit the themes of Allen being gray. Why CC is so unusual (it's definitely the most angelic yet willful of the Innocence). Why CC agrees w/Apocryphos. Basically it makes sense for Allen to be tied just as much to the Heart as he is to-

2 the Earl. The Earl is made up of both Mana and Nea. Two people highly important to Allen. Therefore the Heart's accomodator must be someone also very important to Allen and vice versa (whether it's a character we know or don't yet). Both Earl suit and Innocence Heart are obsessed with Allen. The difference is the Earl suit hates Allen and wants him dead. The Heart loves Allen and wants him alive. Both are driving Allen down a path he's trying to diverge from.

Holy shit you’re right. Like, completely right. 

I mean i’ve always considered Allen’s innocence either in term of “The Heart” or “Not the Heart (but influenced by the Heart)” and i’ve never considered the possibility of it being a part of the Heart or something similar, yet you have a formidable point: we couldn’t expect him to have a part of the Earl inside of him and yet. And we know that he does so against the Noah’s rules of reincarnations too.

That makes incredible sense to me. That would explain why CC agrees with Apocryphos indeed, that would explain why it wasn’t completely destroyed when Tyki did destroy it, that would explain why Allen hadn’t been considered a Fallen yet - so far we can justify a lot in “the Heart loves him” but you have an incredible point.

After all if Apocryphos proved anything is that there are innocences that are different from the ones we have seen thus far. It would be completely possible Allen’s innocence would be a part of the Heart, some extentions like Apocryphos is, or even more. 

I think that since CC seems to be something he had for his reincarnation there was... Something that protected him (that’s where the if Katerina was the accomodator back then theory can work too, as in, with an eye kept on her sons and all it could justify it- newer.. accomodator (which i think we have since it seems likely it had to be close to the innocence it influenced during the Looking for Cross’s arc), if there is one, would just have carried over then what the Heart would have already started). 

And you have such a good reading on this omg yes! the Earl hates Allen and the Heart loves Allen as far as we know, but we also have two similar situations right? The Earl is trying to Devour Allen for this part back, and Apocryphos is trying to fuze with him for the innocence. All of this would work tenfold would the innocence be an extension of the Heart in some way rather than another innocence - just like Allen’s Noah part isn’t a Noah memory like Joyd, but both Mana’s curse and Nea being an actual being inside his body rather than a memory.

If we have that his Noah’s part is unconventional to how Noah are supposed to show his power, extending the same understanding to CC seems the welcomed choice, especially considering CC does mirrors the Earl’s suit a lot (between the cape and the sword)

You got me completely sold, that would explains a lot more of the plot and would make a lot of sense in order to balance out how unusual his Noah’s side is. I love it, thank you so so much for sharing!

[icharchivist]

DGM: I find the Road+Allen+Tyki relationship in canon to be one of the more fascinating dynamics in canon. Do you have any thoughts on it?

Oh my, I do have thoughts, but generally without an angle i will end up in... endless unfocused rambling so bear with me a second.

This is one of the most fascinating dynamic to me as well considering we there have “two villains” who, against all odds, ended up caring for Allen. And while they remain focused on their goals, who they are and their sides in the war, along with their sadistic nature, they... do genuinely care and sometimes go out of their way to care for Allen.

It’s also non neglectable that Road and Tyki are both the Noah who has a particular dynamic with Nea: From Road who had lived by his side in the past, and Tyki who definitly have some thing going on with why his face is like that. It also happens that they’re the two Noah who’s affection for the Earl is very often shown on screen, which with latest reveals about Mana, allign the three of them surprisingly well.

The way the dynamics were built up is also a good thing. We first saw Road and Allen have a dynamic, then Tyki and Allen, then we saw Tyki and Road bound, and then we saw the three of them together. There was a progression in which we had been able to see every side of that dynamic. 

It’s also interesting that Road and Tyki first presented themselves in a harmless way in front of Allen: Tyki’s is obvious, Road is how she first approched them with Miranda’s job before kidnapping them. Then, next we saw them, they showed some foundness toward Allen in their speech, and tortured him. They were also both first targetting a person that Allen wanted to protect.

Both of them then also privated Allen from some of the things that made him unique, making him unable to fight: Road privated Allen from his eye, to stop him from seeing the Akuma’s souls, one of the things that links Allen to humanity and Black Matter, while Tyki privated Allen from his arm, his innocence, his ability to save humanity. Both of those however resulted in them growing stronger. 

Tyki and Road (and the Earl) were also the first Noah to really show us how much love there was in this family. As a result they stand out more as the most family oriented brunch especially now that Allen is... being forcefully adopted by the Noah. But it’s interesting to me that they extend this to Allen and not to Nea. Tyki even show clear distaint for Nea himself.

This comes out specifically in their scenes after Skinn’s death, and then again after Allen almost kills Tyki, where Road turns on him because even if she likes Allen, Family is more important. 

Anyway what about the rest..... Thematically there could be some stuff to be said about Tyki and Allen specifically. First they’re both orphan “born” on the same day, they have their found family that is very important to them and tie them to their humanity. They’re both cheating little shits and it’s implied Tyki spent a rought humanity time. 

Some of the interesting difference however is how Tyki enjoys being on the edge between his humanity and his Noah side while it completely distresses Allen. There could be interesting things to point out too that because of Tyki killing Allen, Nea started to show up and that created the distrust people have toward Allen now, making it hard for Allen to keep on with his life. Likewise, Allen trying to purify Tyki only awoke Joyd to an extend that pushes Tyki on his Noah Side, to the point he doesn’t seem to be able to turn back fully into a human and has to take distance from his found family. Allen and Tyki were both each others’s cataclyst in not being able to live the life they wanted to live anymore.

Road is more mysterious so it’s a bit harder to tackle her thematic sides. we know she knows secrets about Nea so that links her back to Allen, and to the way Joyd possibly died.

We know Road helps both Allen and Tyki trying to navigate through their Awakening, which brings an interesting dynamic on how Road is the eldest of the bunch.

GAahh i’d have more ideas but still i’m still in re-read mode a lot of it still escapes to me.

I personally find it super interesting how they were built up as enemies and are more and more becoming some of Allen’s allies. Road helps Allen keep track of his sanity when locked inside Kanda’s mind, and Tyki still values Allen’s own choices when it comes to the path that awaits him. This is something specifically with Tyki though that he values a lot the choices people make and wouldn’t force it on them either. 

Road and Tyki are two of the Noah we know about who are undeniably on the Earl’s side at any time too. Tyki wants to know and understand the Earl better. So both of them would see for Allen to join them for the Earl’s sake, and therefore are the two that are trusted in trying to save Allen when Apocryphos attacks. However, both of them let Allen take his own agency outside of the Earl’s wishes. And I think it’s pretty big how they both still consider Allen that highly. 

I don’t know, i’m a sucker for he whole “tried to kill you but you’re pretty cool” that they pulled at Allen ahah.

Meanwhile it’s funny how jaded Allen got with both of them. He considers them threats yes, but he also knows he knows them enough to say, mock Tyki when he meets him again or sass them. 

It’s kinda more general but i love the treatment of the Noah in general. They’re super sadistic and they hate humanity, but we see that they love each other at least. Road and Tyki are specifically interesting because this is still there, but they extend their friendship to Allen. Tyki wouldn’t have really antagonized Allen had he not received order: meanwhile it’s funny that Road antagonized him despite having clear orders to not do so.

And as everyone in the series it’s interesting to see how Allen changed them a bit, whenever it was just in term of letting their guard down or how well, near death experience does change a man huh. But they just ended up with a golden dynamic in general and I love how Tyki and Road still act around Allen like they didn’t both torture him y’know. Like “com’on can’t you get over it and catch dinner with us?” which is the most amazing sort of dynamic in the manga to me/

Erg i don’t know.... I’m definitly missing stuff but if i am to keep rambling i should have their scenes clearer in my head and a less vague idea of what i’m aiming for ahaa

but i hope it... gives an idea?

take care and sorry for it being lackluster orz

[icharchivist]

Between pastAllen being a bookman or maybe a friend of the previous bookman jr (Allen's pretty mysterious so I'm questioning just how old he is. Nea seemed to imply getting younger wasn't a big deal for someone like Allen and obviously Bookman doesn't have that ability), I favor the latter. But lately I have been thinking of the former and how much it fits w/everything we've seen so far. The Bookman were on the Noah side previously. Allen was close friends w/Nea and Mana in the past. Allen had -

2 knowledge possibly not even a Noah knew. Allen was willing to sacrifice himself for Nea. The Noah tell Bookman not to lose another heir. If Allen was a bookman during the Noah recording days then the Noahs would remember him and possibly know the 14th is the same Allen (thus Taunting Bookman that he’ll lost/will lose 2 heirs to the Noah). This also ties into why Bookman would already have a lot of secret knowledge on both the 14th and Allen’s situation. Bookman himself seems very invested-

3 in Allen. He keeps his distance but there are times he acts protective and shows admiration. He also acts like he knows Allen personally. After telling Lavi to control his heart, he goes on to confidently state Allen’s not dead and will be back. Bookman never doubts Allen. He also knows Allen’s the Destroyer of Time despite not hearing Hevlaska’s prophecy. When he hears what Allen’s doing while in Noah captivity, Bookman gets anxious that he’s going to miss something very important if they-

4 get to Allen soon. Basically Bookman seems to already have an idea of what and who Allen is. It’s possibly Bookman was more lax about Allen’s bleeding heart compared how he is w/Lavi. Lavi’s his last heir and he needs to ensure a Bookman will not sacrifice himself like Allen did. Allen is also the center of everything. He has ties to both Innocence and Noah. The bookman clan is the 3rd big power in the dgm world that shapes the plot. Allen also having bookman ties fits his theme/story.

Past Allen bookman theory: Another thing I forgot to add. Bookman escaped to the Campbell mansion of all places. The people there are expecting Allen. Cross sent Allen there to continue his journey. Something’s fishy about that.

YESS ALL OF THIS! This is basically my reasoning for Past!Allen being a Bookman! This would indeed also get Bookman to worry even more about Lavi’s tendency to pick a side and be involved in the war and letting his feelings get the best of him if his past apprentice did… exactly that by siding with Nea. 

Besides we know Past!Allen was rather knowledgeable (the whole speech about the Helix) and is even found surrounded with books.

And like you say!!! thematically, having Allen also encompasse the third big power in the dgm workd would fit the story perfectly!!!

I think- we know that the Bookmen had sided with the Noah before, like you say, and I think i recall we see a creepy old man lurking around in some Campbell’s flashback? I’ve seen people theorize it might have been a Bookman since we don’t know anything about him.

I’ll just say though: Nea slaughtered all of the Noah except Mana and Road when he got killed and passed down to Allen, and except for Wisely, none of the dead Noah remembers the events that happened before their death. Tyki is in fact pretty interesting there because he remembers a few flashes due to the harm the innocence had done while awakening Joyd, and there is the whole thing to take into account of him taking Nea’s face.  All I mean is that while the Noah likely know at least that the Bookmen once sided by their sides and know a bit at least of the Events that led to it, I don’t think they would figure out Allen=Past!Allen even if they knew past!Allen. Or, following that logic, Road and Wisely might be the only one who may know.

But I agree on everything else!! from the way Bookman approach Allen and the way he interreacts with him and his own knowledge on the Holy War, all of this makes sense to me!

And it’s good you mention Cross bc this is the last missing piece imo. There’s also strong arguments that Cross might have been the Ancient Apprentice, but tbh while i could see it (as “him leaving the Bookmen to follow the 14th and thus Bookman “lost” him”) I find it kinda anti-climactic if that was the case. However the lack of screentime between Bookman and Cross might add to something more fishy this way comes considering how much Cross knows about this sort of things.

While Cross = Ancient Apprentice is valid, I like to think that he may have been linked to the Bookman Clan but not on a Bookman Apprentice level. But it could give him just enough background to carry on after Past!Allen.(Ive also seen theories/headcanons about Cross and Past!Allen being siblings- we don’t have nearly enough clues to this one though, and if either is revealed to have been the Ancient Apprentice it would raise even more questions about how the Bookman Clan works since it’s apparent the “Unique Apprentice” seems to be a big deal- but it’s still fair to point it out.)

Point is, you mention in your first ask “Nea seemed to imply getting younger wasn’t a big deal for someone like Allen and obviously Bookman doesn’t have that ability”, which is pretty true!! But i’d mention that Cross has this ability as far as we know (I think it’s vagued about in the guidebooks, that we don’t know his real age and do shady stuff to hide it), not to mention the necromancy. Nea knew Cross was on his side as well, so it includes him as a missing piece from Before the merging with Allen, and thus I can imagine Nea figured that if Cross was looking over Allen in some way, he might have passed down his own knowledge that would make it “unsurprising” Allen figured how to being younger.

Or even perhaps, it’s linked to the theories of the Helix of Life Nea remembers later, considering Past!Allen’s research on the Helix, and knowing the explaination of it was kinda mysterious, I could see Nea assume perhaps some part of Past!Allen’s research on the Helix made it possible for him to become younger.

That said we still don’t know anything about who the Previous Apprentice was, it’s just that like you say, with Bookman being this linked to the Campbells, having been ont he Noah’s sides and knowing more about the 14th, it seems to gravitate around Past!Allen or Cross. It would seem a bit weird at this point to add a 5th character to the Past!Squad. 

And personally, exactly for the reasons you mention, and the thematic reasons, I love Past!Allen=Previous Apprentice. The drama from it is priceless.

Take care!