#with complicated relationships to that most ultimate of statuses/function as women

[littlesparklight]

What is your opinion on Hermione and Helen relationship?

Complicated? lol

No, but... ok, it's like this for me;

Many of the (often early) sources that say anything about the moment Helen leaves Sparta generally cast it as, well, leaving/abandoning, and Hermione is always mentioned, whether first among the little list of what Helen is leaving behind. Helen herself in the Iliad says "I left/abandoned", and in, for example, Sappho 16, the case gets doubly stated with an additional "with no thought for her parents and child" (paraphrasing lightly); the Bibliotheke again goes with pointing out that she (helped to) packed the ship and left her daughter.

Now, obviously it's not strange that this should be something emphasized in the source texts; a (married) woman's greatest function and task were her children. A (married) woman (apparently or explicitly) willingly abandoning her child/ren in any way would be among the worst things she could do (aside from/alongside, well. sleeping with someone not her husband).

With that in mind, that's how I like to engage with Helen and her relationship with both the idea of children/her daughter, and Hermione as a real, living person who Helen has a relationship with.

The contrast and conflict inherent in Helen willing to abandon her two figurative and literal "most important" elements to her position as a married woman; her children and her husband.

So, it's more interesting to me to have a Helen who maybe isn't all that happy or excited about pregnancy, who doesn't like being pregnant. Who was maybe happy it took time for her to even become pregnant. (Since, for example, the Catalogue of Women casts Hermione as an unexpected child.)

A Helen who hopes the birth of the actual child will be a revelation... and then it isn't.

Does she love her daughter? Of course. But perhaps more as an idea than what the reality of an infant is. So it takes time for her to bond with her, and maybe it just never becomes easy, which would be difficult when you're then failing in something that is supposed to be your "ultimate purpose and function".

For my own ficverse, I ignored the majority version of Hermione being nine when Helen leaves Sparta, so my version of Helen there is still hoping a more grown up Hermione than her toddler-age self would let her bond more with her daughter. A Hermione that's nine poses a slightly different situation.

And then, of course, there's the whole question of Helen's return; she's been away from her daughter for 18-28 years at that point. 18 if we axe Helen's words in the Iliad and the timeline the Bibliotheke paints up, 28 if we don't. Whether Hermione was a toddler or nine when Helen left, Helen has, either way, missed her daughter's whole childhood.

Can they rebuild/remake something out of this, especially when Hermione leaves for Phthia two-three years after Helen and Menelaos comes home to Sparta? Do they want to? Do just one of them want to? Is it Hermione, is it Helen, who has been regretting and missing Hermione, yet struggled to bond with her before she left and now has to face the possibility they never might have any real relationship, as they "should", being mother and daughter?

... I guess my opinion is you can do a lot with their relationship, but to me it's more interesting if it's allowed to be complicated via Helen having Complicated Feelings about Being a Mother.

[dilutedh2so4]

#related too but the post is so long already;#Helen Klytemnestra and Timandra as sisters and all three of them as mothers#with complicated relationships to that most ultimate of statuses/function as women#Helen and Timandra both leave a child behind when they elope#and Klytemnestra might have had her firstborn son killed#but most definitely had her oldest daughter killed#and then neglected/abused her remaining children#while potentially also getting pregnant again with her lover's#so yeah...

What is your opinion on Hermione and Helen relationship?

Complicated? lol

No, but... ok, it's like this for me;

Many of the (often early) sources that say anything about the moment Helen leaves Sparta generally cast it as, well, leaving/abandoning, and Hermione is always mentioned, whether first among the little list of what Helen is leaving behind. Helen herself in the Iliad says "I left/abandoned", and in, for example, Sappho 16, the case gets doubly stated with an additional "with no thought for her parents and child" (paraphrasing lightly); the Bibliotheke again goes with pointing out that she (helped to) packed the ship and left her daughter.

Now, obviously it's not strange that this should be something emphasized in the source texts; a (married) woman's greatest function and task were her children. A (married) woman (apparently or explicitly) willingly abandoning her child/ren in any way would be among the worst things she could do (aside from/alongside, well. sleeping with someone not her husband).

With that in mind, that's how I like to engage with Helen and her relationship with both the idea of children/her daughter, and Hermione as a real, living person who Helen has a relationship with.

The contrast and conflict inherent in Helen willing to abandon her two figurative and literal "most important" elements to her position as a married woman; her children and her husband.

So, it's more interesting to me to have a Helen who maybe isn't all that happy or excited about pregnancy, who doesn't like being pregnant. Who was maybe happy it took time for her to even become pregnant. (Since, for example, the Catalogue of Women casts Hermione as an unexpected child.)

A Helen who hopes the birth of the actual child will be a revelation... and then it isn't.

Does she love her daughter? Of course. But perhaps more as an idea than what the reality of an infant is. So it takes time for her to bond with her, and maybe it just never becomes easy, which would be difficult when you're then failing in something that is supposed to be your "ultimate purpose and function".

For my own ficverse, I ignored the majority version of Hermione being nine when Helen leaves Sparta, so my version of Helen there is still hoping a more grown up Hermione than her toddler-age self would let her bond more with her daughter. A Hermione that's nine poses a slightly different situation.

And then, of course, there's the whole question of Helen's return; she's been away from her daughter for 18-28 years at that point. 18 if we axe Helen's words in the Iliad and the timeline the Bibliotheke paints up, 28 if we don't. Whether Hermione was a toddler or nine when Helen left, Helen has, either way, missed her daughter's whole childhood.

Can they rebuild/remake something out of this, especially when Hermione leaves for Phthia two-three years after Helen and Menelaos comes home to Sparta? Do they want to? Do just one of them want to? Is it Hermione, is it Helen, who has been regretting and missing Hermione, yet struggled to bond with her before she left and now has to face the possibility they never might have any real relationship, as they "should", being mother and daughter?

... I guess my opinion is you can do a lot with their relationship, but to me it's more interesting if it's allowed to be complicated via Helen having Complicated Feelings about Being a Mother.