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tolkien-meta-library · 9 days ago

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Silmarillion war crimes

(Finally motivated to make this because someone said the Silmarillion elves committed 'all the war crimes', and while I know, I know they were just exaggerating for comic effect it still drives me up the wall.)

First piece of housekeeping: Technically speaking war crimes are war crimes because they were defined as such in various treaties. You aren't technically violating the Geneva Conventions if you aren't signatory to them. But, they do often get talked about more like universally applicable rules.

Second piece of housekeeping: I think no one is actually accusing the Fëanorians of, like, cutting undersea communications cables or impersonating the Red Cross. There are some war crimes which are obviously not applicable and I'm not going to discuss them.

Third piece of housekeeping: There are a lot of provisions in the Geneva Conventions. Someone else can go through all of them if they like. So, I'm going to go with this list gleaned from the section of the Wikipedia page on war crimes about the international criminal court:

Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

Torture or inhumane treatment

Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property

Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power

Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial

Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer

Taking hostages

Directing attacks against civilians

Killing a surrendered combatant

Misusing a flag of truce, a flag or uniform of the enemy

Settlement of occupied territory

Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory

Using poison weapons

Using civilians as shields

Using child soldiers

Firing upon a Combat Medic with clear insignia.

Summary execution

Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

Fourth piece of housekeeping: I'm not just going to look at the Fëanorians. That's not fair. There's elves vs. other elves, elves vs. dwarves, dwarves vs. elves, Angband vs. everyone, everyone vs. Angband, etc. I should probably define some of these groups starting out but I'm not going to.

So. This will be long.

1. Willful killing, or causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

I'm a little puzzled about this one, actually. I thought that was just… assumed to be part of war???

Killing as more than a means to some non-killing-related end???

At any rate I'm inclined to say everyone conducting war in the Silmarillion did this. I don't think anyone was trying to minimize military casualties.

2. Torture or inhumane treatment

Angband did this, obviously.

A lot.

Really a lot.

We don't have any record of any elves doing it, or dwarves, or Edain.

…Except Túrin's outlaws but they're kind of a weird circumstance.

3. Unlawful wanton destruction or appropriation of property

(Seems like there might be a lot of wiggle room in 'unlawful'…)

Well, anyway, Angband also did this, obviously, a lot.

The dwarven sack of Menegroth counts as this.

Seizure of the swan-ships arguably counts as this one, though I'd actually hesitate on that one. I think that wasn't a war crime, that was a crime crime, because they weren't at war.

If the Fëanorians scavenged from Menegroth before leaving that probably counts, but that's speculation.

The Host of the West did destroy Angband, if you want to count that.

4. Forcing a prisoner of war to serve in the forces of a hostile power

Angband, yet again. It's a little less obvious here since it's not like they put prisoners in the regular army unless you count orcs, but brainwashing prisoners and sending them out as agents probably counts.

Also their treatment of prisoners of war generally violates a lot of stuff in the Third Geneva Convention.

I do not think we have grounds to say anyone else did this, partially because I'm not sure we have grounds to say anyone else ever took any prisoners.

Elrond and Elros are a gray area, but if they ended up fighting with the Fëanorians there's no reason to believe it was against anyone but Angband.

Oh, and I suppose the Host of the West took prisoners, but I'm sure they didn't do this.

5. Depriving a prisoner of war of a fair trial

I mean, you could say that prisoners of war in Angband got the same kind of trial that anyone else in Angband got?

But otherwise Angband again, yeah.

The Host of the West… I'm not sure. Do you count the judgments of Ëonwë as a fair trial?

Everyone else: No prisoners, not an issue.

…Look I don't know what to say about Túrin and Mîm. I'm inclined to say a lot of the outlaws' bad behavior was crime crime not war crime. I don't know.

6. Unlawful deportation, confinement or transfer

Angband back in the definitely column here.

I don't think anyone else is. Sure, Menegroth and Sirion were abandoned, but it wasn't because the Fëanorians stuck around chasing people away.

7. Taking hostages

Angband, explicitly with Maedhros and I think implicitly elsewhere.

The Easterlings serving Angband also explicitly took hostages.

The Fëanorians took Elrond and Elros. It doesn't seem to have been terribly effective, but it was hostage-taking.

Celegorm and Curufin holding Lúthien could be this if you consider the Fëanorians to have been at war with Doriath at that point, but that's sort of dubious? Maybe a war crime, maybe a crime crime.

8. Directing attacks against civilians

Angband.

The Fëanorians attacked the entire communities of Menegroth and the Havens of Sirion. They may or may not have made any attempt to avoid deliberately killing noncombatants in one or both cases, but they were unavoidably attacks on civilians.

The dwarven attack on Menegroth is similarly an attack on civilians.

If you consider any orcs, trolls, balrogs, vampires, werewolves, etc. to be civilians, then the Host of the West almost certainly did this. You can argue that none of them counted as civilians; you can also argue that the Host of the West managed not to attack e.g. orc children, but I don't think that's very likely.

The Easterlings serving Angband did have civilians, but I think it's more likely the Host of the West avoided attacking those.

9. Killing a surrendered combatant

I don't think anyone is directly attested as doing this?

The overall impression one gets of the First Age is a general deficit of surrender.

But: if anyone surrendered to Angband's forces rather than trying to fight or escape until they physically couldn't, I'm sure some of them were killed (and some weren't, because Angband wanted slaves).

If any orcs/werewolves/vampires/trolls/dragons/balrogs dared to surrender rather than fight to the death or escape, I'm sure some to most of them were killed.

If any dwarves of Nogrod tried to surrender to Beren and the Ents, they were killed.

We don't know about the dwarven sack of Menegroth or any of the Kinslayings (on either side).

The Host of the West accepted at least some surrenders, but we don't know if it was all of them.

10. Misusing a flag of truce, a flag or uniform of the enemy

Angband doesn't get much of an opportunity for this because no one trusts their truces and it's not like switching flags or uniforms would help, insofar as there are uniforms.

But they did propose a negotiation under false pretenses.

Of course the Fëanorians also agreed to it under false pretenses.

The Silmaril Quest is absolutely full of people disguising themselves as Angband's forces. If you want to get pedantic about it uniforms and flags were not the key part of those disguises, but I think it's the same idea?

I feel like the Easterlings who announced their allegiance change mid-battle may also count as this?

11. Settlement of occupied territory

Angband generally prefers the scorched-earth approach, but they do settle their Easterlings in occupied territory.

No one else does this.

Like the Fëanorians had enough people left to 'occupy' anything.

(Or I guess arguably the Host of the West occupies Angband but not for very long and they definitely don't settle there.)

12. Deportation of inhabitants of occupied territory

Angband does some of this in the form of enslaving them back in, uh, Angband, but it's true that mostly it depopulates by slaughter and most of the survives flee with no deportation as such. It doesn't deport the Edain.

Again, most others have no occupied territory.

Though everyone does have to leave Beleriand. :( Should that be attributed to the Host of the West?

13. Using poison weapons

Angband: yes.

Everyone else: No evidence of this. I wouldn't necessarily rule out them trying it against Angband if they thought it would work.

Although I suppose you could argue that weapons inimical to Angband by nature could count as poison…? Naahhh.

14. Using civilians as shields

I don't think Angband did this one, actually?

Edain civilians as hostages, yeah, but Angband didn't have much in the way of its own civilians and didn't expect anyone to try to avoid hitting them.

Angband's Easterlings most likely tried to keep their civilians out of the way like sensible people.

15. Using child soldiers

Whether it was possible for Angband to do this with orcs depends on your interpretation.

Everyone else…

Not child soldiers in the 'take them from their families, indoctrinate them, send them out for shock value' sense.

But child soldiers in the sense of 'people we would consider children are considered adults and treated as such', yeah.

And I expect also in the sense of 'people who are not considered adults and who no one really wants fighting, but there is no true place of safety and no one wants them helpless, either'.

16. Firing upon a Combat Medic with clear insignia

Existence of combat medics with clear insignia is uncertain.

If they existed I'm sure Angband fired on them and tbh I wouldn't bet against anyone else doing so.

17. Summary execution

Okay, this can mean killing combatants who surrendered again, but to avoid double-counting let's say we mean non-combatants.

Well, Angband, regardless.

It would not surprise me if the Fëanorians did this in Menegroth, considering that Celegorm's servants expected to get away with murdering children, but that's not definite.

18. Rape, sexual slavery, forced prostitution or forced pregnancy

Angband's Easterlings did this in Dor-lómin.

The rest of Angband…

It seems likely? In one context or another. But I don't think there are direct statements on it.

—Or actually I guess they made promises to Maeglin about Idril! Not sure if that should count when they didn't actually do anything and I'm not sure they ever meant to.

Eöl and Aredhel in the worst interpretation was not part of a war. It was a crime crime and a diplomatic disaster.

Celegorm and Curufin's behavior towards Lúthien was only questionably part of a war and I'm not sure whether it qualifies here, so I'm going to say no.

Eighteen in the somewhat arbitrary list…

Fëanorians: Definitely four (1, 7, 8, 10), possibly/arguably as many as nine (1, 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17).

Non-Fëanorian Exiles: Definitely two (1, 10), possibly/arguably as many as five (1, 9, 10, 15, 16).

Iathrim+Lúthien&Beren: Definitely two (1, 10), possibly/arguably as many as five (1, 9, 10, 15, 16).

Dwarves of Nogrod: Definitely three (1, 3, 8), possibly/arguably as many as five (1, 3, 8, 9, 16).

Host of the West: Definitely one (1), possibly/arguably as many as seven (1, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 16) (that's what you get for winning).

Angband and associates: Definitely thirteen (1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18), possibly/arguably seventeen (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18).

Admittedly it's silly to look at Angband at all when it was in a constant state of total war against basically everybody…

#tolkien #silmarillion #meta #historical comparisons #feanorians #ceescedasticity #ymfingsteadilyon #edennill archived

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tolkien-meta-library · 12 days ago

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Unfortunately one of my main criteria for enjoying high fantasy is whether it scratches my itch for narrative symmetry or not

#tolkien #lord of the rings #silmarillion #narrative #meta #faustandfurious

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tolkien-meta-library · 21 days ago

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Read a meta of yours (an d a few others chimed in) about the patriarchy of Noldor society (well elven society as a whole)-pretty sure it was about why celegorm and curufin didn't receive any sort of penalty from maedhros and fingon-and I would love to hear you talk more about it, it's always been a fascinating topic (can't really bring it up in certain fandom spaces cause people will try to dispute the whole thing by claiming "but tolkien created lúthien and haleth led an all woman group girl boss!!")

Ah thank you! I will say though, I assume by fandom you mean fandom on Tumblr i.e. ao3 fandom and unfortunately, the reason I started writing about all of this was because Tolkien scholarship in journals like Mythlore are absolutely awful when it comes to analysing the question of gender in the texts, reproducing the same defensive surface level readings that characterise the sort of defensiveness one finds of Tolkien in Tumblr/ao3 fandom.

And I want to say I understand why that happens, but in scholarship especially it means there is no real attempt to engage with a feminist reading of the legendarium texts - or to refute feminist critiques solely through answers related to in-world worldbuilding, rather than recognise the broader meta-commentary being made. The question of Eowyn's fate is one such example - yes there are very good in-universe rationalisations for it, yet we cannot also avoid the fact that the women of the legendarium consistently have arcs that resolve in them being recouped into traditionally "catholic" complementarian gender roles - counsellors, healers, wives, mothers. The ridicule that readings of Shelob and Ungoliant as pathological representations of concupiscent female desire as vast, frightening, devouring, greedy, selfish, deceptive, destructive containing all these very negative associations with "bad" femininity by other means, is also pretty telling and also frankly, immensely childish. These are basic bitch readings in academia and the fact that there are certain kinds of fannish adjacent Tolkien scholarship that cannot handle it without resorting to snide ridicule or defensiveness is very very tiresome. The rest of this is long because I had a lot to say so I am putting it under a cut.

So having said that, I wish the problem of patriarchy was a merely Noldor problem, but firstly, Tolkien's texts are highly steeped in it - some version of it ranging from a benevolent patriarchal complementarianism (i.e. men and women are immutable categories where people fulfill specific gendered roles that reflect an inherent inner nature), to the rather more uglier stuff we see in the Silm in which BOTH the Noldor and Sindar are implicated. Both these groups of Elves have women being superceded by male authority at every point turn and in HoME, there are several passages that essentially situate this "patriarchal" arrangement of power as natural and foundational to Elven society, if not actually divinely ordained:

It was arranged – for Imin, Tata, and Enel said men [i.e., Elvish males] awoke first, and began the families – that when any woman married one of another Company, she was reckoned to have joined the Company of her husband. The exchange was about equal and does not affect calculations materially. For the same reason, descent of authority was reckoned from the immediate father; but women were in no way considered less or unequal, and Quendian genealogy traced both lines of descent with care. - XV A Generational Scheme in Part One: Time & Ageing in Nature of Middle Earth

And also:

And being impatient they could not wait but woke up their spouses. Thus, the Eldar say, the first thing that each elf-woman saw was her spouse, and her love for him was her first love; and her love and reverence for the wonders of Arda came later. - Appendix: The Legend of the Awakening of the Quendi in Part Four: Quendi & Eldar from The War of the Jewels

And more in the predestination vein re. women -

But the “First Elves” (also called the Unbegotten, or the Eru-begotten) did not all wake together. Eru had so ordained that each should lie beside his or her “destined spouse”. - XV A Generational Scheme in Part One: Time & Ageing in Nature of Middle Earth

A lot of the reference to the "egalitarian" nature of gender relations between the Elves comes from a recuperative reading of a single quote lifted out of context from Laws & Customs of the Eldar in Morgoth's Ring:

There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a nér can think or do, or others with which only a nís is concerned.

However, this is preceded by this highly patriarchal assertion of the roles of Elvish women and men in society viz. the reproductive imperative for women, dressed up in the ideological cover of "making things new":

In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal — unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri.

Similarly, the same bioessentialist attitude re. "women are homemakers; men are changemakers" is reflected in other tellings of the Tale of Awakening:

But three Elves awoke first of all; and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in hröa and more eager and adventurous in strange places. - the version in NoME

But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. - the version in War of the Jewels

But the most telling passage is in the published Silm, in the Ainulindale, and has been the subject of recuperative readings within fandom, away from the bioessentialist gendered reading of "natural" womanhood and manhood, towards one that is friendlier towards trans positive readings - which, again, I understand how this happens, but I also don't think it does us (trans people) any favours to use bioessentialist ideas about the immutability of inherent sexgender to make the case for transness Being Allowed:

But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby.

the "difference of temper they had even from their beginning and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each" essentially situates a highly complementarian idea of gender (difference of temper) in biological fact (bodied forth). I keep saying complementarian, because if you look closely at the Valar, a very specific notion of what "womanhood" & "manhood" is emerges: men rule or judge (Manwe, Namo, Ulmo) or make & invent (Aule) or go to war & hunt (Tulkas, Orome), while women birth or create in this amorphous kind of way (Varda forming the stars, Yavanna singing the Trees into existence, Nienna's tears watering the Trees to produce the fruit that will become the Sun & Moon). Conceptually the women cover domains relating to fertility & growth, light, storytelling & weaving, grief & pity, healing and dancing, while men cover domains relating to judgement, the wind, the earth & craftsmanship/smithing, hunting, war, the sea, dreams and visions (if you include Morgoth, you also have the domain of change and transformation per the original intentions of Eru according to Tolkien). These are highly gendered designations, based, yes, on the gendered concepts of gods in mythologies, but which also becomes reflected in a later passage in LaCE in relation to the Elves:

The nissi are more often skilled in the tending of fields and gardens, in playing upon instruments of music, and in the spinning, weaving, fashioning, and adornment of all threads and cloths; and in matters of lore they love most the histories of the Eldar and of the houses of the Noldor; and all matters of kinship and descent are held by them in memory. But the neri are more skilled as smiths and wrights, as carvers of wood and stone, and as jewellers. It is they for the most part who compose musics and make the instruments, or devise new ones; they are the chief poets and students of languages and inventors of words. Many of them delight in forestry and in the lore of the wild, seeking the friendship of all things that grow or live there in freedom.

Okay, but that's what Tolkien tells us about Elf gender via in-world mythos & customs. What we get shown in canon of the Silm is a whole bunch of women who consistently run up against the limits of patriarchal power - Nerdanel is told she can't have her kids because she's chosen the Valar over Feanor in leaving him during his exile (Shibboleth of Feanor), Luthien is imprisoned in a tree & threatened with forced marriage if not outright rape (Silm; Beren and Luthien)), Aredhel fights Turgon to leave Gondolin (straight up she tells Turgon he's only her brother and has no authority over her) is tricked into marriage by a husband who resents her people and treats her like a possession while her cousins argue over her in possessive terms (Silm; Of Maeglin), Miriel is implied at least a little to have died because there was no way for her to escape from being a wife and a mother + Finwe wanted more kids (The Statute of Miriel & Finwe in Morgoth's Ring), Melian's advice is passed over in favour of the general Sindar court if not Daeron (Lay of Leithian), Idril is not considered for the role of regent in Gondolin while Maeglin is (Silm; Of Maeglin), Elwing is passed over as ruler/queen in favour of Earendil who becomes lord of the settlement at Sirion (Silm; The Voyage of Earendil). This is all what exists textually, outside the bounds of speculation and of reading into the text re. Elvish characters like Indis, the unnamed Feanorian wives mentioned in the Shibboleth etc.

We are also presented with at least two women characters whose names are striking in having etymological roots in the word for "man" - Nerdanel (this is a hypothetical, reconstructed etymology) and Galadriel (Nerwen; man-maiden). Both are presented in relation to men: Galadriel is as athletic and strong as a man, has masculine desires to rule a kingdom of her own like her male cousins and will eventually undergo a learning arc in which she surrenders this will to power and gives up her kingdom; Nerdanel is framed as an unexpected choice of wife for the prince of the Noldor because "for she was not among the fairest of her people" followed by a description of her explicitly transgressing gendered norms by learning metal & stonecraft from her father & being strong and free of mind. It does suggest, at least, that there are strong(er) boundaries to Elvish gender & that the "women are free to do what they like" in LaCE is conditional on the woman having a strong will (and therefore resisting societal norms and pressures). Both Nerdanel & Galadriel will also hit up against the question of patriarchy. Nerdanel in relation to Feanor as mentioned above & Galadriel from the standpoint of facing a much harsher punishment than her brothers because of her "rebellion" against the Valar (free her but she had way less to repent of even from the Tolkienic question of "will to power" than Finrod did at the dawn of the Second Age ngl), though this is less woman v. man and more woman character v. god / the author 😬

All of which is to say - look, I think its possible to do feminist (and recuperative) readings of Tolkien, because he is a very good writer and therefore, very good at actually perceiving and writing about the dangers & struggles that women face (whether that is sexual threat, domineering (or selfish) male relatives, or broader social structures of power) and he is capable of doing it with sympathy that not a lot of other male writers achieve! But on the other hand, there is a pattern to what constitutes "good" women in his texts. "Good" Elvish women are usually faithful to the Valar, wise, full of good counsel, faithful to & trusting in Eru's plan, resorting to wisdom & thought first rather than the sword. There is a certain level of Good Christian Woman that lies beneath it, though this womanhood itself might take many possible shades. Elvish women are recuperated into this framework of womanhood in order to be "good". This is a troubling and frustrating paradox that is embedded within the legendarium and like, I want to drive home that this is not a Noldor problem alone, but one that the Sindar are highly implicated in (Melian, Luthien, Elwing), and which both Elves and Valar are implicated in, which goes all the way back to the traditions around the Awakening, and the troubling idea that Elf women are, essentially, predestined to be spouses to Elf men. That women have agency within this world and that the text deals sympathetically with them is a testament to Tolkien's authorial prowess. But they are not feminist characters in themselves & the text is not feminist in itself, because it ultimately is built on a conservative idea of gender - one that Tolkien recognises is flawed, but which must be recouped into perfect complementarian balance (the Valar as having achieved that balance v. the Elves who have taken it to a negative extreme).

Anyway, ironically the paper I read that actually articulated for me what I was seeing in Tolkien's Silm text was regular Christian complementarianism in another hat was also the paper that argued that this was feminist actually unlike those narsty other feminists doing silly and hysterical readings and this was published in Mythlore and my god I hate it here

#lotr #analysis

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tolkien-meta-library · 21 days ago

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And also:

And more in the predestination vein re. women -

There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a nér can think or do, or others with which only a nís is concerned.

Similarly, the same bioessentialist attitude re. "women are homemakers; men are changemakers" is reflected in other tellings of the Tale of Awakening:

But three Elves awoke first of all; and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in hröa and more eager and adventurous in strange places. - the version in NoME

But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and more eager and adventurous in strange places. - the version in War of the Jewels

#tolkien #silmarillion #culture #gender #meta #tobermoriansass

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tolkien-meta-library · 1 month ago

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This is all beyond me, but I'll reblog

NERDY GRAMMAR POST WARNING: Why do we, the Silmarillion fandom, write “Feanorian” instead of “Feanorion?” Specifically, when we’re writing about Feanor’s children.

The -ion suffix exists (I believe) to denote a patronymic: for example, Legolas Thranduillion or Gildor Inglorion. By that logic, we should write “the Feanorions,” rather than “the Feanorians.”

The term “Feanorian” should probably refer to things that are connected to or owned by Feanor. For example, one could say “Feanorian lamps,” “the Feanorian wars,” or “I’m currently dealing with a paranoia outbreak that feels downright Feanorian.”

Does anybody know if there’s a reason that the fandom predominantly writes it in the second way, or if it’s just convention? I might be totally wrong about this, but I’ve been wondering for a while.

#tolkien #silmarillion #linguistics #meta #maglor still lives #eccentricmya #peredain #arofili #maironsmaid

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tolkien-meta-library · 2 months ago

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Annatar being maia of order has an uncanny potential.

Like, imagine this fact affecting everything and I mean literally everything he does.

Casually dropping his cloak onto the nearest chair, it lands in a perfectly folded stack.

Putting his teacup on the table, accidentally forming a flawless golden ratio with the objects nearby.

Any space he inhabits eventually begins to resemble a sterile hospital room, seemingly organizing itself without effort.

Meanwhile everyone around are like "how on earth are you doing that"

#tolkien #sauron #maiar #speculation #yashmel

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tolkien-meta-library · 2 months ago

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I'm not sure if anyone has posted about this previously, but I was re-reading the Houses of Healing chapter in ROTK today, and noticed an interesting detail: the scent of athelas changes for each person upon whom it is used.

When Aragorn uses athelas to awaken Faramir, the text notes that "a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy." And for the observers in the room, "the fragrance that came to each was like a memory of dewy mornings of unshadowed sun in some land which the fair world in spring is itself but a fleeting memory." (ROTK 865).

Yet, when Aragorn next uses the herb to rouse Éowyn, the observers note something different: "it seemed to those who stood by that a keen wind blew through the window, and it bore no scent, but was an air wholly fresh and clean and young, as if it had not before been breathed by any living thing and came new-made from snowy mountains high beneath a dome of stars, or from shores of silver far away washed by seas of foam." (ROTK 868).

And finally, when Aragorn awakens Merry, the athelas smells "like the scent of orchards, and of heather in the sunshine full of bees" (ROTK 869).

What I think is interesting here is that for each person, the scent is different, and could be seen to evoke a landscape that is dear to them: for Merry, the description of orchards, heather, sunshine, and bees seems quite clearly linked to the Shire. And for Faramir, the "living freshness" and "dewy mornings" might describe the vales of Ithilien.

What's interesting to me is the description Tolkien chose to give Éowyn's version of the athelas, because it doesn't seem immediately connected to any landscape with which we can associate her. An alternative explanation is that Éowyn is consistently paired with winter and ice imagery, so the idea of "new-made, from snowy mountains" could simply be an echo of that same imagery; in a similar vein, the "shores of silver far off" could just be a vague allusion to the blessed lands of Valinor, and not really specific to Éowyn at all. Moreover, either of these images could simply be a poetic way to convey a sense of renewal and cleanliness; i.e. Éowyn being washed clean of the Black Shadow.

However, my pet headcanon is that perhaps the description of Éowyn's athelas is meant to suggest that she has a special emotional connection to at least one of these landscapes. In my mind, this is most likely the mountains; after all, the White Mountains are not far from Edoras and it is conceivable that she either visited there at times, or at least admired them from the valleys below. Perhaps the sight of the high, snowy peaks were a source of comfort and inspiration to her as she struggled against the confines of her life in Edoras. Along those lines, I suppose it's also conceivable that Éowyn visited the sea at some point; or at least that she dreamed of it, and that to her the sea represented an escape from her intolerable situation.

Either way, we'll never know for sure, but this was a fun little detail to read into.

#tolkien #lord of the rings #characterization #meta #lady of ithilien

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tolkien-meta-library · 2 months ago

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I know the “slutty Mairon” take is super popular in fanon, but honestly, it never made much sense to me. This is a guy who sees himself as some untouchable god, someone you’re not allowed to name, let alone touching. He aims to keep himself abstract because he is a god. Personally, I prefer the version where he’s unattainable, sophisticated, and saves all his charm and seduction for the kings he needs to manipulate—because it’s business, not pleasure.

He’s a disaster-slutty-lover for Celebrimbor and Melkor specificall, but for everyone else? Forget it.

#tolkien #silmarillion #morgoth #sauron #sexuality #characterization #meta #dinogalad #kisses in the void #mai komagata

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tolkien-meta-library · 3 months ago

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When you accidentally reblog to the wrong place and then get multiple responses so you can't just delete it O_O

#not meta

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tolkien-meta-library · 3 months ago

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But mosquitos are also the most deadly non-human animal to humans on the planet. So... what do we do about that? How do we handle the diseases without getting rid of at least some mosquito species?

Mosquitoes actually are not replaceable in any ecosystem that naturally has them and that includes replacing them with any of the non biting species because these are the traits that make them so core to food webs:

Tiny

Can use every single pool of moisture to raise generations no matter how dirty and stagnant and low in oxygen

Can fly

Males get by on just sugars

Females take protein from larger animals to manufacture thousands more eggs

All these things combined allow thst ecosystem to make huge volumes of insects from conditions barren to most other macroscopic life. You might think there are other insects that seem to make huge massive swarms out of nothing but there's really nothing that hits all the same qualities *except other insects that also suck blood.*

It's the precise combo of being able to "prey" on things millions of times larger and breed in nothing but a few drops of filthy rainwater or the moisture in a rotten log. That's the most efficient combination for anything that size to multiply that rapidly where nothing else can even survive, except of course the things that can move in because they eat them :)

#not meta #oops

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tolkien-meta-library · 3 months ago

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People often say LOTR is a story about hope. (I'm reminded of it because someone said it in the notes of my Faramir post.) And that's true, but it's not the whole picture: LOTR is in large part a story about having to go on in the absence of hope.

Frodo has lost hope, as well as the ability to access any positive emotion, by Return. He is already losing it in Towers: he keeps going through duty and determination and of course Sam's constant help.

For most of the story, Sam is fueled by hope, which is why it's such a huge moment when he finally lets go of the hope of surviving and returning home, and focuses on making it to the Mountain. To speed their way and lighten the load, he throws his beloved pots and pans into a pit, accepting that he will never cook, or eat, again.

When Eowyn kills the Witch King, she's beyond hope and seeking for a glorious death in battle. It's possible that in addition to her love and loyalty for Théoden, she's strengthened by her hopelessness, the fear of the Nazgúl cannot touch someone who's already past despair.

Faramir is his father's son, he doesn't have any more hope of Gondor's victory or survival than Denethor does, he says as much to Frodo. What hope have we? It is long since we had any hope. ... We are a failing people, a springless autumn. He knows he's fighting a losing war and it's killing him. When he rejects the ring, he doesn't do it in the hope that his people can survive without it, he has good reason to believe they cannot. He acts correctly in the absence of hope.

Of course LOTR has a (mostly) happy ending, all the unlikely hopes come true, the characters who have lost hope gain what they didn't even hope for, and everyone is rewarded for their bravery and goodness, so on some level the message is that hope was justified. But the book never chastises characters who lost hope, it was completely reasonable of them to do so. Despair pushed Théoden and Denethor into inaction, pushed Saruman into collaboration, but the characters who despaired and held up under the weight of despair are Tolkien's real heroes.

(In an early draft of Return, Frodo and Sam receive honorary titles in Noldorin: Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable, respectively. Then he cut it, probably because it was stating the themes of the entire book way too obviously, because this is what Tolkien cared about, really: enduring beyond hope. Without hope.)

Also, people who know more than me about the concept of estel, feel free to @ me.

#tolkien #lord of the rings #meta #voyaging too

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tolkien-meta-library · 3 months ago

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there’s been this persistent little phenomenon, this tendency people have to take melkor, the most powerful of the ainur, the architect of darkness, and gently pat him on the head like he’s some misunderstood genius who just needed a little patience and a warm beverage. it’s kind of fascinating, honestly. they look at the guy who spent multiple ages wrecking creation with obsessive precision and go, “oh, poor thing. he felt fear. he was hurt.” like fear is something only the unjustly persecuted experience and not, you know, a natural consequence of trying to wrestle the universe into submission and slowly realizing it won’t budge.

there’s this dramatic streak in how people frame him, a sense that the real tragedy was not the wars, not the ruin, not the grief etched into every hill of beleriand, but the fact that melkor was made to feel small. that his “individuality” wasn’t celebrated. but melkor’s individuality wasn’t a quirky refusal to follow rules. it was an all-consuming need to dominate, to possess, to unmake. he didn’t want a seat at the table—he wanted to flip the table, melt it down, forge it into a throne and sit on it alone.

and the idea that the other valar somehow “crushed” him? that they collectively failed him? no. if anyone was failed, it was the song he was meant to be a part of, it was the valar themselves, it was the children of Ilúvatar.

it was manwë.

because manwë never stopped trying. he never stopped believing in melkor, even when every sign told him not to. even when the darkness had already begun to bloom, when melkor’s pride had metastasized into cruelty, manwë still held out his hand. he hoped. he forgave. he gave melkor freedom again when everyone else expected and advised him not to. and melkor took that chance and immediately used it to devastate the light of the world and still manwë grieved. he never hardened, never turned bitter. he remained open, even when he had every reason to close himself off. and that’s the real heartbreak of their story—not the punishment, not the fear, not some illusion of an undeserved, cold crown. it’s that manwë never stopped seeing the brother he once loved, and melkor never looked back.

now, the fear part. let’s actually talk about that, because it’s important. melkor is the only valar who “knew fear,” yes, but not because he was targeted or excluded. it’s because fear, real fear, requires something to lose. it comes from the knowledge that you’re vulnerable, that you can’t control everything, that things exist outside of your will and might never bend to it. melkor wanted everything. he wanted to shape the world after his own imagination. but deep down he knew he couldn’t. he wasn’t eru. he couldn’t create life. he couldn’t bring forth new flame, only twist existing fire. and that gnawed at him.

he feared eru, the one thing he could never reach or rival. he feared tulkas, who bested him, he feared the music of the ainur itself, which moved with beauty he couldn’t comprehend or redirect. he feared the dissipation of his own essence as he poured it into arda, trying to control every piece of it and slowly draining himself in the process, his wasting away a making of his own hands. and maybe, maybe most of all, he feared the idea that he might be wrong. that harmony and love might actually be more powerful than control. that the others, in their peaceful submission to the music, had something he never would.

the rest of the valar didn’t know fear because they didn’t need to. they were anchored. not docile, but aligned. they trusted the music. they didn’t feel the same hunger because they were whole in ways melkor refused to be. and in cutting himself off from that wholeness, melkor made himself not just alone, but hollow. and fear fills hollow things and festers in isolation.

this doesn’t mean melkor wasn’t a tragedy. of course he was. but not the kind people try to make him into. his tragedy wasn’t that he was cast out. it was that he cast himself out, again and again. it was that he took the incredible, singular potential he was given and used it to consume rather than create. the world was full of beauty waiting for him to shape it with his gifts, and he chose to break it instead, because if he couldn’t own it, he didn’t want it to exist.

and yet—and this is where tolkien breaks from the usual storybook pattern—there’s still a thread of hope. tolkien doesn’t write villains as lost forever. he said himself that he didn’t believe any being created by eru could be irredeemable. evil, in his world, is not a rival force, it’s a distortion. and what is distorted can, at least in theory, be healed.

when arda is remade, when the second music plays, we’re told that all will know their parts and sing them aright. and there’s no fine print saying “except melkor.” no cosmic asterisk. the athrabeth tells us that arda won’t just be destroyed and replaced, it’ll be healed. made whole. and that implies that even the deepest wounds, melkor among them, have a future that isn’t just silence or fire.

maybe, in that distant dawn, when the music rises again, melkor will choose differently. not because he’s been forced, not because anyone finally broke him into submission, but because he sees. because he understands. because he no longer fears the music, but wants to be part of it. maybe then, the voice that once screamed against the harmony will join it instead, and the song will be greater for it. maybe, after everything, he’ll find his way home, not as a king, not as a god, but as a brother.

and yeah. maybe that’s when he’ll get his hugs. but they won’t be for what he suffered. they’ll be for what he became.

#tolkien #silmarillion #meta #morgoth #characterization #gelenka daria

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tolkien-meta-library · 3 months ago

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Arwen Character Analysis

I'm fascinated by Arwen's character, and the hints of personality we get from her in the text. She's a largely off-page character, but with close examination, a personality does form.

The biggest indicators of Arwen's personality are revealed, naturally, through her love for Aragorn.

Brave, Loyal and Kind

We know that Arwen is willing to make great sacrifices for love. To make that choice definitely speaks of courage, and to have remained true to that choice during the years of their betrothal also speaks of the depths of her loyalty.

She is also kind. We know this because she gave Frodo passage to Valinor. That she knows he will appreciate this choice, and will need to go to Valinor to ease his suffering, also shows her to be insightful.

That Frodo is a Ring-Bearer, as her father and grandmother are, perhaps gave her additional insight into the trials of being a Ring-Bearer, and seeing the impact on them and their need to go to Valinor might have allowed her to make a reasonable conclusion as to Frodo's own needs.

Proud

While it is Elrond who states that Arwen will not give up her immortality for any man less than the King of Men, but in the same statement he says that her doom will be a bitter thing for her at the end, which we know to be true. This suggests to me less that Elrond was making conditions, and more that he knew his daughter's mind.

Of course, Aragorn being king is tied with Middle-Earth being saved, but the emphasis that is placed on Arwen's greater lineage indicates that this is a case of Aragorn needing to be worthy, as it is a matted of expediency. Aragorn needs to be king for more than practical reasons for Arwen to marry him.

When Arwen falls in love with Aragorn, it is after Galadriel dresses him in kingly clothes, and she sees Aragorn looking like a king in both dress and demeanour. From the text, it seems her choice was made there and then.

When she and Aragorn part, she acknowledges that the situation is grim. However, she says that her heart rejoices, because she knows Aragorn will be among the valiant men who will end the shadow. While Aragorn is gone, out of hope she makes a banner that will declare him to be king.

Arwen's love for Aragorn is tied intrinsically with how she views and appreciates his kingliness.

This is not to say that Arwen only loves Aragorn for a crown. Aragorn is a king, being a king is part of who he is, to not love Aragorn the King is to not love Aragorn. But it is to say that Arwen has standards. Arwen knows her heritage and the grandeur of her lineage, and no less than a King will do if she is to marry a mortal.

Luthien Come Again

Arwen is Luthien's spitting image, and people have mistaken her for Luthien. Arwen knows this, but makes a point of saying that Luthien's name is not hers, even if her fate might be.

Arwen is living under the shadow of Luthien's memory.

How does she feel about this? When she says she has been mistaken for Luthien before, she says so "gravely". Is this out of some frustration for being forever associated with Luthien, or is it because she recognises the gravitas of Luthien's choice?

Arwen makes the "choice of Luthien" and frames it so, so she clearly feels in marrying Aragorn she is following Luthien's footsteps, yet there are differences.

First, Luthien assisted Beren with his task directly. She set out and faced the same peril that Beren did, whereas Arwen remained in relative safety in Rivendell. Second, Luthien experienced Beren's death before she made her choice to accept mortality, and was the one to arrange his resurrection and their ability to live and die together. Arwen admits she did not fully comprehend the grief of mortality until long after she had made her choice, only as Aragorn lay dying. Third, it was Luthien's father who set the terms for Beren marrying her, Luthien did not give a damn. The lives Beren and Luthien lived after the quest also seem to be humbler and more removed than Aragorn and Arwen's, settling on Tol Galen.

From this, does it feel like Arwen tried to follow the path of Luthien, without going through the same journey that Luthien went on that lead to that choice?

Naïve

It seems strange that an elf who has lived for thousands of years could be naïve, but one the subject of mortality, someone who has spent centuries knowing themselves to be immortal, surrounded by immortals, would naturally be unaware of the true cost of mortality, and what it's like to live constantly under the knowledge that life will end and all that will be left is the unknown. Even those years as a mortal queen probably would not be enough to fully undo all those centuries of thinking and acting like an immortal.

It is Arwen's line about the Fall of Numenor that makes me believe that when she made the choice to marry and die with Aragorn, she did so not fully comprehending what that choice meant. She reveals she felt "scorn" for the people who caused Numenor's fall through their fear of death.

For a woman who generally seems peaceful, gentle and kind, the aggression of that word "scorn" is quite a departure from the perfect, passive image of Arwen we often have. She has deep feelings and not all of them pretty.

Here we might see that pride of hers rear it's head. You have to wonder if she compared her own courage in choosing to die, with man's "foolish" rejection of the Gift of Death, a gift that elves have been known to envy. Did she feel that the elves knew better than Men what was good for them?

Only now that she is facing Aragorn's death, and in due course, her own, she suddenly understands that terror and feels pity where once she felt scorn. And when Aragorn suggests she go to Valinor, she says no boat will take her now, whether she will it or no. That choice is beyond her, and she does not speak as someone entirely without regrets for her choice, nor does she die as one.

Among Men, but Not of Them

When Arwen dies, she dies alone.

Despite having children and possibly grandchildren, despite having been Queen of Gondor and living among mortal men for many blissful and glorious years, despite not yet wishing to die, Aragorn's death means her own. It seems Aragorn was the only thing tying her to Middle Earth, and when he goes, she does not remain in the land she was queen of for so many years, but goes to the ghost forest of Lothlorien, where she had lived with her elven kin, and dies there, alone, her grave unsung and one day to be forgotten.

She is not buried alongside Aragorn, to be remembered as a great queen who ruled alongside a great king (and indeed there's little indication of how much ruling she did, Tolkien wrote that when Aragorn went to war, that Faramir ruled in his place as Steward).

She died dwelling on a memory of the Age of Elves, instead of living on a while longer in the Age of Men.

It's worth noting that while Aragorn did spend time among mortal men, he was also raised by elves, and was as elvish as a mortal man can be. Losing Aragorn was losing that tie for Arwen. And unlike Aragorn, who went out and fought with the Gondorians and the Rohirrim and the Rangers and went to many lands ruled by mortal men, Arwen remained entirely in the lands of the elves, despite intending to become a Queen of Men.

She did not use this time as Aragorn did, seeking out mortal men and learning their ways and learning how to live with them and rule over them.

Galadriel taught Celebrian to bake Lembas bread, and Celebrian taught Arwen, but Arwen did not teach her daughters, and that art was lost.

That Arwen did not pass on this skill might indicate why her children did not give her cause enough to keep on living, they were less elvish than they were mortal, and it was the elves Arwen longed for.

Arwen is an emblem of a bygone age, and when she dies, that age ends too.

Conclusion

Arwen is kind, gracious and wise. She remained loyal and true to Aragorn through many years of waiting, and endured great heartbreak to be with him. She gave Frodo a priceless gift that no doubt spared him much suffering. She and Aragorn also invited Bilbo to their wedding, which we must respect.

Passionate, perhaps? She fell in love with Aragorn swiftly on sight after seeing his kingly qualities, and according to the text, made the decision to die for him there on the spot.

Steadfast. She made the choice quickly, but she never broke it, and did not seem to waver from that choice until Aragorn died, and the full pain of mortality hit her.

She is of a great and noble lineage and is aware of that, and shows both pride in her birth and pridefulness towards mortals. She was good to Men from what we can tell, but she never became fully one of them, and I think her pride must have played some part in that, she would condescend to be a good queen to men, but she would not be as one of them. At the same time, her years as a mortal queen would have been like seconds to her, being thousands of years old, and she perhaps did not expect them to pass as swiftly as they did.

So, Arwen, kind, proud, passionate, naïve and loyal.

#tolkien #lord of the rings #arwen #characterization #meta #torchwood 99

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tolkien-meta-library · 5 months ago

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Places that inspired J.R.R. Tolkien: Part II

Fangorn: probably inspired by Puzzlewood, Gloucestershire Orthanc: probably inspired by Faringdon’s Folly, Berkshire Anduin: may have been influenced by the Danube, Germany Rohan: probably based on Mercia, West Midlands White Mountains: inspired by the Malvern Hills, Worcestershire Helm’s Deep: inspired by Cheddar Gorge, Somerset Mordor: based on the Black Country, Birmingham Minas Tirith: based on Ravenna, Italy

#tolkien #lord of the rings #historical comparisons #meta #middle earth mythopoeia

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tolkien-meta-library · 5 months ago

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Eowyn's Shieldmaiden Dress

I do love this dress. I don't know if it's my favourite dress how do you pick?(although I did do a poll once and the winner was that gorgeous green velvet one we first see her in) but this was definitely the correct dress choice for promo.

The dress itself is a perfect combination of elegance and practicality, while also suggesting Eowyn's vulnerability and her strength.

The underdress is very soft, very fluttery, and pure white. By contrast the brown corset vest is dark, practical and is reminiscent of armour. While the dress only holds a tracery or ornamentation, the gold embroidery, to wear white in such a culture is a symbol of quite lavish wealth. There wasn't washing machines, and Rohan is a muddy place. By wearing white, Eowyn establishes herself as a deeply important person, very high status.

While the white fabric in itself is a luxury, the dress is extremely simple. By dressing in quite an understated manner, she projects a certainty, a comfort in her rank as Lady of Rohan.

She is known as the White Lady of Rohan, speaking of her fondness for white.

As Meduseld is all brown and gold, the whiteness in her wardrobe also allows her to stand out. Everyone else we see in quite dark colours, browns, golds, reds. Very rich and handsome, but blending somewhat with the colours of the Hall. Eowyn''s propensity for white dresses could speak of her constant desire to be noticed, to be recognised, to be remembered. She has no wish to keep to the shadows.

Her title "the White Lady" is reminiscent of Galadriel, the White Lady of the Forest, Saruman the White, and eventually Gandalf the White. We cannot tell how intentional this is on Eowyn's part, if the custom for dressing in white being something of a power display being something she is aware of, but it aligns her with quite powerful figures, most strikingly Galadriel, another golden haired queen in all but name, noted for having a "Amazon" disposition in her youth, and ruling a forest land beside her husband.

We do know from the books that Galadriel is known of and feared by the people of Rohan. If Eowyn had ever come to hear of Galadriel's name "the White Lady", it's not hard to imagine Eowyn would wish to be revered and feared (especially as Grima grows in power) in a similar manner.

Eowyn herself not seeming the most fussy of people, by making white a staple of her wardrobe, she is able to establish her rank at court by simply putting on white clothes, without having to bother with adornment.

With the dress above, the softness of the fabric also speaks of the vulnerability beneath the strong outer appearance (typified by the martial like brown vest). Eowyn is a young woman, long isolated, with a romantic turn of mind, both in regards to love and war.

The sleeves are also opulent, long and flowing with an excessive amount of fabric. Quite unnecessary. However, they're also tied back, allowing Eowyn free use of her arms. The focus the tied back sleeves bring to her arms (and in the promo pictures, the sword she holds) harkens to her title "Lady of the Shield-Arm), and reveals her to be someone who, despite her high rank, is ready to get stuck in. She is literally rolling her sleeves up.

That she still has the long, fluttery sleeves, might also hint at Eowyn, for all her strength and practicality, having a vein of romance within her. She's dressing to work, to be taken seriously, but she still wants a touch of romance to her dress.

The softness of the fabric also allows Eowyn freedom of movement. Even the luxurious element of the dress has a sense of practicality to it. Eowyn can still move around swiftly and efficiently in it. The movement of the white fabric, caught in the wind, also speaks of the wildness in Eowyn's character, barely contained.

Whereas the whiteness of the gown allows Eowyn to stand out, the vest roots Eowyn in Rohan tradition. She belongs in Rohan, amongst the people of Rohan. Most of all, she belongs among the soldiers. The gambeson like quality of the vest speaks of Eowyn's desire to be looked at as a warrior.

At the same time, the contrast between the free flowing white fabric, and the sturdy brown vest, also nods to how Rohan and its expectations confine Eowyn and her wild spirit.

We see the dress styled in two ways. The first way, with the white skirt, is seen mostly in promo, but we actually get a glimpse of it when Eowyn stands outside Meduseld, presumably to welcome the Riders back after Helm's Deep.

The second way, we see for longer. This is when Eowyn is at the camp.

This time we see she has added a brown overskirt, suitable for being out camping and riding.

The fact that Eowyn styles the dress two ways speaks of her practicality.

Welcoming the riders back from Helm's Deep would probably be an occasion requiring some level of formality. For that, she wears the gown with just the white skirt (the fabric fluttering dramatically in the wind). Yet with the addition of the skirt, she can wear the dress out and about, getting rough and ready.

This nicely balances the line between the need for Eowyn, as niece of the King and Lady of Meduseld to assert her rank and authority, and Rohan's prosperity, through her presentation, while also recognising the need not to be dress excessively, especially during a time of war and suffering. She shows her rank through the use of white fabric, but she holds back from additional ornamentation, and she restyles her dresses to suit them for different situations.

Eowyn is a well dressed representative of Theoden's court and the nation of Rohan, and a practically dressed princess, sympathetic to the needs of her people.

#tolkien #lord of the rings #peter jackson movies #eowyn #characterization #clothing #rohan #meta #torchwood 99

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tolkien-meta-library · 5 months ago

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For @qthewhatever and anyone else who is interested, here is an overview of Gollum's speech patterns, or:

Why Sméagol talks Like That, an introductory course

Note: I am discussing the books only. The movie adaptation of the character was changed a lot and I don't want to address adaptational changes in this post. All quotes are from The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit by J. R. R. Tolkien

Notex2: A lot of this post is just going to be my opinion. I don't want to assert my opinion as correct or factual, but it is going to slow the flow of this post down to a stuttering crawl if I stop to say 'imo' every other sentence. So I'd like to just say once, up front, that if I am not citing a source or a commonly agreed-on fact (such as 'hobbits have furry feets'), I'm giving my own interpretation of the books and am aware I may have things wrong, or that there may be multiple equally correct interpretations of the work. I belive there are always multiple takes that can be had on a complex work of literature, some of which can be equally correct, but not all of them are my takes. In the same vein, I understand that fictional characters are not living people, but it is easier and more efficient sometimes to talk about them as if they were. If I slip into doing that, it's just economy of language.

Now, to start off with, it's important to remember that Tolkien was a linguist who played with words for fun, and even without getting into the Conlangs Iceberg, a lot of LOTR and The Hobbit involve wordplay. The man loved words, he liked to interject poetry, he liked to stylize words in specific manners to convey extra layers of meaning (some of which is, to be honest, waaay over my head! medieval literature and epic poetry and etc. etc. I can tell when I'm reading it that it's a style shift and it's significant, but that's about it.) None of that is my take, he's an infamous Words Guy.

Therefore, if there's a specific word pattern used in his works and it's something extremely distinctive and impossible not to notice, it's there for a reason.

What I'm getting at is that sometimes a character has funky speech patterns just because a writer likes it or is trying to get characters not to blend in with each other in dialog, and in those cases, the style of dialog may not be worthy of this much analysis. But this is Tolkien and this:

"Bless us and splash us, my precioussss! I guess it's a choice feast; at least a tasty morsel it'd make us, gollum!"

This doesn't happen by accident

So that's the writer: a guy who likes words. It is also relevant to discuss the history of the character.

(As an aside: Gollum was invented and introduced in The Hobbit. Gollum-as-Sméagol-a-character-with-a-history-and-name was not introduced until LOTR, and his introduction is significant enough that the story stops for a long stretch while Gandalf (a character known to be a sayer of significant things) narrates it to us.)

Sméagol comes from a rural and semi-feral community that lives by the river. He is from

a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Sméagol. He was interested in roots and beginnings; he dived into deep pools; he burrowed under trees and growing plants; he tunnelled into green mounds; and he ceased to look up at the hill-tops, or the leaves on trees, or the flowers opening in the air: his head and his eyes were downward. - The Fellowship of the Ring, 'Shadow of the Past'

Invasive species behavior.

(Sometimes I remember this passage at random because I look at the ground for bugs a lot and I'll remember to look up at leaves on trees instead. Not important. moving on)

Sméagol was raised by said grandmother. He grew up "wealthier than most" and with a guardian who was "stern and wise" and the ruler of the community. So he's rich, probably well-educated as his people go, and closely related to/living in the household of an important authority figure, and he also seems to only have one friend, and in The Hobbit there's a mention that he only likes one game (riddles). He appears to be constantly seeking intellectual stimulation, and likes stories.

Sméagol was later ousted from his community and ended up completely isolated in a cave. I think it gets overlooked how much of an impact FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of isolation would have on a person. Tolkien points it out specifically in the prologue to LOTR:

But after ages alone in the dark Gollum's heart was black, and treachery was in it

But I usually hear Gollum's descent as a person spoken of only regarding the Ring. Consider how much damage it would do if you were to suddenly go from 'cushy life surrounded by a clan' to CAVE FOREVER LMAO. He'd be having some problems even without the Ring.

What does this have to do with saying 'we hates it my precious gollum gollum'

Everything!

Gollum has three different distinct modes of speaking: 1) we hates it my precious gollum gollum 2) Sméagol is hungry (and he has never done anything wrong ever) (gollum gollum) 3) "Indeed I was told to seek for the Precious; and I have searched and searched, of course I have." (gollum)

These different modes communicate different moods and intentions. They are all the same character.

They are all the same character.

They're all the same character, Mr. Jacks(ok. I'm not here to talk about that. I promised to be very, very good and not let the movies have this post)

We hates it my precious gollum gollum

Why does Gollum say 'my precious'?

He's referring to the Ring, which is the +1 Ring of Making You Call It 'My Precious'. Look, Bilbo does it too:

'Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so!' cried Bilbo. 'But you won't get it. I won't give my precious away, I tell you.' His hand strayed to the hilt of his small sword. - FOTR

He's also threatening gandalf the grey here because it's the +1 Ring of Stupid Life Choices.

But wait! When Gollum does it, there's an extra wrinkle:

And when he said gollum he made a horrible swallowing noise in his throat. That is how he got his name, though he always called himself 'my precious.' - The Hobbit

Gandalf says the Ring 'was eating up his mind.' Gollum seems to be calling himself and the Ring by the same name.

Why does Gollum refer to himself in the plural first person?

Well, in his original form as 'random silly threat in a cave', it's possible that Tolkien was making a bit of a joke by having his silly little villain use the royal we. I think it is objectively funny to have a random weirdo in a cave use the royal we (and Gollum is the kind of person who would do such a thing). But I think the finished version of the character is using 'we' to mean 'myself and the Ring'.

This is why I spent so much time on 'oh him lonely :'( ' in the beginning. Sméagol was used to having a family clan around him (even though he sounds unpopular!) He was forcibly ousted and left with only the Ring, which as an added wrinkle, has a slight will of its own and gives a sense of having low-grade life in it. This gives Sméagol at least three very strong motivations for talking to the Ring and obsessing over it, first off, it's magic and it's eating his soul. Second off, he's incredibly, painfully lonely, which can induce someone to personify an object and try to make friends with it.

Thirdly, Sméagol is more self-aware than he seems, and he is completely capable of realizing that his own choices have driven away all of his loved ones and also he killed his friend, and he did it in exchange for the Ring. So the part of him that realizes that stuff would by natural consequence be desperate to believe the Ring is a worthy exchange for his entire family, his home, and everything he ever knew or loved.

Just cave and Ring. Me and my bestie the Ring. It's our cave! Me and my precious. Ride or die. Me and Ring. It's OUR CAVE. It's OUR pile of dead orcs.

But... Why is Gollum so... theatrical about this mode of speech?

Does it guess easy? It must have a competition with us, my preciouss! If precious asks, and it doesn't answer, we eats it, my preciousss. If it asks us, and we doesn't answer, then we does what it wants, eh? We shows it the way out, yes! - The Hobbit

This is also the style of speech that uses obvious nonstandard grammar (we doesn't vs. we don't) and the pluralses, and the hissing. (The other modes of speech do this much less often. Almost never. Way less than I noticed before. i've definitely gotten this wrong before)

So why all of that? Well, he's bored. He's bored, he's lonely, and he's being written by a quirky linguist who thinks making up words is fun. I think Gollum is being extra on purpose. I have never sat in a cave by myself with no WiFi for five HUNDRED years, but I think it would be boring.

We know Gollum still enjoys riddles because when he has a hostage, he makes Bilbo play riddles. Gollum enjoys playing with words. Look, he made up a little traveling song about wanting to splash in puddles!

So, I think this is something he does on purpose to entertain and comfort himself, and although very habitual he is able to stop doing it when he wants to. Look at him correcting 'ours' to 'mine' when he's trying to communicate something he really cares about to Frodo:

The Precious was ours, it was mine I tell you. - The Two Towers

👌Mwah!

So, I think Gollum chose, at least partly, to take on this persona as a coping mechanism.

When does Gollum speak in the royal we?

When he's alone, and whenever he forgets to stop doing it.

One final note: canonically, the way the characters in LOTR first "met" Gollum was when Bilbo told them the Riddles in the Dark story (complete with vocal impression. becasue Pippin knows how to make the noise, remember?)

They probably thought Bilbo was, at the very least, exaggerating. Then Sam, Frodo, Gandalf and Aragorn all get to find out he wasn't!

Sméagol is unproblematic. and hungry.

Why does Gollum speak in the third person?

'You know that, or you guess well enough, Sméagol,' he said. quietly and sternly. 'We are going to Mordor, of course. And you know the way there, I believe.' `Ach! sss! ' said Gollum, covering his ears with his hands, as if such frankness, and the open speaking of the names, hurt him.

names, plural

names including 'Sméagol' his own freaking name

Don't ask Sméagol. Poor, poor Sméagol, he went away long ago. They took his Precious, and he's lost now.' 'Perhaps we'll find him again, if you come with us,' said Frodo. 'No, no, never! He's lost his Precious,' said Gollum. - The Two Towers

Gollum starts referring to himself in the third person/as Sméagol after all this, and he seems to be doing it to try to ingratiate himself with Frodo, who starts their relationship by repeatedly addressing Gollum by his real name.

he was friendly, and indeed pitifully anxious to please. He would cackle with laughter and caper, if any jest was made, or even if Frodo spoke kindly to him, and weep if Frodo rebuked him. - The Two Towers

(just imagine you make a small, quiet joke of the sort Frodo usually makes and it's greeted with 'HAHA ;_;' and dancing around from gollum)

So he'll use third person when he's trying to be friendly

Nice hobbits, they sleep beautifully. Trust Sméagol now? Very, very good. - The Two Towers

Sméagol always helps, if they asks -- if they asks nicely. - The Two Towers

Or when being a little bit of a pill and trying to get away with it

'Yes, yes, and Sam stinks! ' answered Gollum. `Poor Sméagol smells it, but good Sméagol bears it. Helps nice master. - The Two Towers

Look at his social skills! Truly, this is a man who's lived alone for 500 years and has secret malicious intent.

When does Gollum speak in the third person?

When trying to be cute. (By implication, Gollum seems to have some inkling that the royal we is off-putting to people. I bet they made fun of him for it in Mordor.)

But there's also another little wrinkle to this- he seems to be dissociating a bit? I've noticed that repeatedly, Gollum will describe himself, announce his status [he's hungry], start off a personal narrative or descriptor with third-person language (which sounds a little dissociated), and then shift to "I" when his emotions get engaged.

It caught Sméagol there, long ago.' Gollum shuddered. 'But Sméagol has used his eyes since then, yes, yes: I've used eyes and feet and nose since then. - The Two Towers

The shift comes when he stops simply explaining events and begins to recall what it was like to 'use eyes and feet and nose' (he shudders, which shows emotion, and then after that, starts adding more details).

There was a great battle long ago, yes, so they told him when Sméagol was young, when I was young before the Precious came. - The Two Towers

Again, the I shift happens when this gets more personal- going from 'Sméagol knows relevant information and here is how he knows it' to 'I had a life before the Ring'

Bonus round! I found a bit where he swaps between all three speaking styles.

'Who knows? Sméagol doesn't know,' answered Gollum. 'You cannot reach them, you cannot touch them. We tried once, yes, precious. I tried once; but you cannot reach them. Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precious! All dead. - The Two Towers

Who knows? Sméagol doesn't know [explaining the Marshes, impersonal] We tried once, yes, precious. [ruminative, reminding himself, slipping into his old habit] I tried once; [now engaged in his memory, or perhaps catching the 'we' and correcting it.] Only shapes to see, perhaps, not to touch. No precious! [ruminative, mulling over the memory] All dead.

Then there's this- he's alone:

Dirty hobbits, nasty hobbits. Gone and left us, gollum; and Precious is gone. Only poor Sméagol all alone. - The Two Towers

I think he's picturing something like this

"I've used eyes and feet and nose since then."

I have a separate post focusing on Gollum's use of singular first-person, but the short answer is: When he's being very honest, in shock, and/or just not playing word games anymore.

But wait! There's more!

Bonus Round: gollum gollum gollum

SUPRISE! Gollum has a secret fourth speech pattern, which is: How he always talks regardless of whatever other things he is currently doing. This is the part, by the way, that elevates Gollum from 'oh he's quirky eurghgh' to 'oh, he's quirky and there is a master behind the scenes and how many copies did LOTR sell oh this is why. not everyone can do this, in fact, most people can't. This shitpost of a character is the equivalent of da vinci painting a trollface because he can and it's fun. It's supposed to be that way. it's art. EURHGUHGHG'

Behold!

Gollum speaks in long, rambling monologues and repeats himself. He often says things twice, especially if they are short phrases or particularly important ones.

`We are lost, lost,' said Gollum. 'No name, no business, no Precious, nothing. Only empty. Only hungry; yes, we are hungry. A few little fishes, nasty bony little fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death. So wise they are; so just, so very just.' Dust and ashes, he can't eat that. He must starve. But Sméagol doesn't mind. Nice hobbits! Sméagol has promised. He will starve. He can't eat hobbits' food. He will starve. I did escape, all by my poor self. Indeed I was told to seek for the Precious; and I have searched and searched, of course I have. But not for the Black One. The Precious was ours, it was mine I tell you. I did escape. - The Two Towers

Sometimes he repeats things with little variations on them.

I found it, I did. Orcs don't use it, Orcs don't know it. Good master, wise master, nice master! - The Two Towers

(by the way, the thing that twigs my dialog ear most to 'he would not say that/where is my precious? :(' is, for some reason, this staccato speaking rhythm mixed with the long rambling. if i am playing a video game or something where gollum has a cameo, and he doesn't ramble and repeat short sentences, my brain says 'skinsuit gollum :(' because my brain sucks.)

Gollum uses vivid, visceral language that usually evokes an unpleasant mental image.

Then rest now, nice hobbits, under the shadow of the stones, close under the stones! [...] Soft and quick as shadows we must be! But Sméagol has used his eyes since then, yes, yes: I've used eyes and feet and nose since then. That is the road to the left. At once it begins to climb up, up, winding and climbing back towards the tall shadows. When it turns round the black rock, you'll see it, suddenly you'll see it above you, and you'll want to hide. The rocks and stones are like old bones all bare of meat. But the Marshes have grown since then, swallowed up the graves; always creeping, creeping. - The Two Towers

Gollum sometimes speaks in sentence fragments, but usually sparingly.

There is one exception to this when he's super nuclear pissed at Frodo and just starts barking

'Come, Sméagol! ' said Frodo. We are in danger. Men will kill you, if they find you here. Come quickly, if you wish to escape death. Come to Master!' 'No!' said the voice. 'Not nice Master. Leaves poor Sméagol and goes with new friends. Master can wait. Sméagol hasn't finished.' There's no time,' said Frodo.Bring fish with you. Come! ' `No! Must finish fish.' 'Sméagol! ' said Frodo desperately [...] [Now he knows he's about to get arrested] 'Masster, masster!' he hissed. 'Wicked! Tricksy! False!' -The Two Towers (the waterfall scene)

This is notable because a whole row of sentence fragments is not how he usually talks. IT IS NOT HOW HE USUALLY TALKS.

Gollum makes noises.

Ach! sss! [...] We guessed, yes we guessed Ach! No! You try to choke poor Sméagol. I can't find it. Ach!

If it asks us, and we doesn't answer, then we does what it wants, eh? Yes, yes, master: give it back, eh? Sméagol will keep it safe;

Tie us up in the cold hard lands and leave us, gollum, gollum. Good master, good Sméagol, gollum, gollum! I am tired. I, we can't find it, gollum, gollum

The Noise™: It seems involuntary and caused by stress and occasionally, hunger or thoughts about food but then again he's always hungry

Finally, Gollum has a consistent personality, and motivations, and areas of interest, and all of that other character stuff, that comes through at all times, but that is probably off topic for this post.

Anyway. I am abruptly out of things to say. TY for reading

#tolkien #lord of the rings #gollum #characterization #language #meta #ach sss no

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