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accessthearts · 6 years ago

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Londs Reuter 0:24 No, but if that changes, I’ll let you know. Thank you. Ari Wil 0:28 Okay. Um, so could you give me a description of your work? Yeah. Londs Reuter 0:36 I So, I guess, great question. I oversee sort of like three different programmatic domains at the Whitney and tour in my title and one isn’t. So I work in community partnerships, which are mostly local neighborhood organizations. We want to be stakeholders at the Whitney Museum and influence interesting policy and programming and we want their buy in and we want to do right by them. So I’m, I’m part of that relationship and I have been in like, building those relationships and sustaining them. And so that’s the community aspect of the work. I work in accessibility, which is really my background. Where I advise on exhibition design and planning. I also help run three different tours, like monthly tours of the museum for different disability communities. And then the third component that’s like, not really in my title, but it sort of baked in is that I work a lot on senior programming and senior partner ships, which often take place off site at different senior centers, or community centers. And some of them take place here at the museum where they come and visit. And we also have a twice yearly sort of free day for seniors to come to the museum and get docent led tours. So that’s the senior programming aspect of it. So yeah, three different domains. The work on the day to day looks a lot like calling and emailing and running around Ari Wil 2:32 OK. Yeah. Londs Reuter 2:34 But in support of those goals. Ari Wil 2:35 okay, and would you say that the overall goal, which is, is to ease the problematic, problematic nature of art? Londs Reuter 2:46 Hmm. I guess I’d want clarification on what the problematic nature of art is to you. Ari Wil 2:54 Okay. Okay. Well, here’s the quote from you. I’m so sorry. I didn’t Me, me me means to bring it out like that. Okay, I’m so sorry. You go artists a problem and then what you’re addressing is how do we eat is problematic nature. So I was just wondering if Yeah, is that something that is that a concept you would apply to your work?Or like to those different areas? Where does that concept? Londs Reuter 3:19 Yeah. Ari Wil 3:23 I guess I guess I’m so sorry. I’m not trying to call you out for that. Londs Reuter 3:27 It’s like communing with a former self and I’m like, Who are you? I don’t believe in ideas of like universal access, or like this idea that anything is completely accessible to everyone. Which means that there are always problems for someone in anyone’s access that like my access can actually mean your inability to access something at times. It doesn’t always have to be in direct conflict, but they aren’t always sort of mutually instinctual. So I guess the problems are ongoing and it means that like, the inherent nature of access work is to be constantly responding and changing and like offering options. So like you there is no perfectly accessible art because there is no perfectly accessible anything. Which I’m I think some people disagree about that. Most disabled folks don’t disagree. Yeah. In my experience. Yeah. Which means artists problem like everything else. Ari Wil 4:54 Yeah. Londs Reuter 4:55 Yeah, I just happened to work in art museums. So I’m like, very to to that particular struggle. Ari Wil 5:02 Can you talk about your experience as an art administrator? Just your background and access for too? Londs Reuter 5:09 Yeah. So funny, I never think of myself as an art administrator, but I, that’s how I make a living. I think of myself as like an artist, and a person who supports access to art, which is an administrative goal, anyway. So the question again, yeah, I’m sorry. Ari Wil 5:45 Oh,yeah. So your experience as an artist and maybe our admin, yes, worker. Londs Reuter 5:53 There’s so many ways I could answer that. So I’ll give you some, like, tell me what you need or what You’re looking for I have been working in accessibility projects, I’d say for the last six years or so. And it was like, a moment of redirection for me. I’ve been working in education and I’ve been working in an education style that actually, in reflecting on it feels directly opposed to a lot of my current values around access. And I just hadn’t done the amount of work that I’ve done now to see things in the way that I see them now. So my work in access, I largely sort of like, legitimize my entry into the field by citing a lot of my work as a quote, special education instructor, which is what I did previously. Though I, I wouldn’t count that high among the skills that actually lend themselves to the work that I do. I think I’m a dancer by training, I think dance prepares people to like, go into literally any situation and assess the feeling and like, understand what conditions need to be created in order to like, generate situations. Ari Wil 7:36 So dancing is like the vibe check? Londs Reuter 7:38 Yeah, I mean, for me, like, dancing only happens when we’re in the space, figuring it out together. And like access also only happens when we’re in the space figuring it out together. It’s like not a checklist. It’s not a thing that I can like. Just like shoot you the email and make sure you have the right dimensions on the pedestal or, you know, it like actually needs to happen. Through interaction and actions. So, for me I like really feel like I’m calling upon my dance practices in order to do my accessibility work more than like the things I actually legitimize to my job interviews and things like that. Those certainly like, my intimate relationships with students with autistic students has like, just like, absolutely shifted my worldview, and actually is the thing that like, made me feel that I had to leave that type of training and schooling that I had been doing with students was like, an act of love to those students. But it doesn’t necessarily feel like the thing that’s prepared me, I will say, and it was very clear to me starting out in this work, that there was information that I wanted and didn’t have access to It is by I started a graduate program in disability studies. So I’ve been part time in graduate school for quite a few years. So that’s the other way that I’ve been sort of prepping myself to do this work is sort of theoretical. Ari Wil 9:18 During the panel, you kind of briefly talked about the growth process of being a teacher with autistic students and then turning into your work now. What were the strengths and weaknesses of that and unlearning process to your work today? Londs Reuter 9:42 Yeah, this it was a messy time. I was also like 25. And it was – I’m getting this wrong because I’m I’m 30 now – but it was also a time in your life, when people have often been doing a thing thinking it’s the thing and then you have a shift. So it doesn’t feel like it’s particular just to that circumstance but also to that time in life. But a lot of the shifts for me were philosophical. I I had sort of made peace with the fact that my art practice wasn’t going to be lucrative. And I knew that before I even moved to New York, which is what I did right after college, I moved here from Maine. Okay, that was the last stop before here..But I so I was, I was like seeking work to offset the cost of Living and making art. And I realized pretty quickly that actually, in the span of a week, I might be spending more time at that day job than I would be doing my art practices and that therefore I needed a day job that spoke to my values and beliefs. But I just couldn’t do certain service oriented jobs that like left new, more depleted by the end of the day. And if I was going to be complicit in capitalist structures, I wanted to at least give something of myself out into the world. And it felt like the world needed. So that was sort of like my move into doing teaching. And then from teaching, I tried to shift into museum education. And in that museum education shift, I was having all these conversations around accessibility. I will say working in museums, it was partially just that I didn’t backgrounds by could legitimize working in these spaces. But I was very interested in just doing accessibility work. And that happens in a lot of institutions. So I was looking at educational institutions like universities, as well as places like museums and cultural places. So I wasn’t necessarily seeking out being an art space, it was more that I had things on my resume that let me move into an art space. But for me, the ambition was really working and accessibility. Ari Wil 12:36 Okay. And then what motivates you to work and accessibility? Londs Reuter 12:41 Yeah. I mean, access work is fascinating. I will like it just as a person who like needs a certain level of like intellectual friction, but like I need things I can chew on. Ari Wil 13:09 Yeah, complex ideals. Londs Reuter 13:10 Yeah. And access is like never ending and so profoundly intersectional sometimes in really hard ways. I would say like very especially when it comes to talking about race and when it comes to talking about capitalism that like, it is like a growth process that is, like just becoming, but a never arriving process for me that like really keeps me engaged and interested. I mean, I think I grew up with a disabled sibling and experienced a lot of ableism early in my life, where I was afforded opportunities that I was like directly witnessing as like a four year old that my brother wasn’t getting as a seven year old. So there’s also like, it also really matches the way that I have long been engaging with the world of like seeing things and not understanding that other people don’t see them. But also wanting to be an accomplice to like bringing other people into the work Ari Wil 14:38 an accomplice! I read an article on that, like three days ago. Access you also, in the panel talk about access as “love and hospitality. Justce”. Yeah. Is there anything else you want to say about that? I want to cite that Londs Reuter 14:56 okay. So that’s not an original thought or idea. And it’s also like there are lots of things that are sort of out in the ether that like maybe one disabled activist like sort of coins, but like has generally been understood before, perhaps not articulated in quite that way. But Mia Mingus is a Disability Justice activist and a sort of, I think she works a lot in healing justice as well. And she’s based in the Bay Area and is sort of the person that coined “access is love” has a term I want to say also that Alice Wong did it, she has a podcast. I think Alice is a she her called Disability Visibility, and I feel like that activist is also related to access as love movement and an idea. It’s like on shirts, they have it on mugs now. There’s like really moving that forward. Ari Wil 16:02 Noted, Yeah. What are you most proud of in your work on diversity and accessibility. Londs Reuter 16:10 Hm proud…feels very hard. I think in part pride feels like it centers myself and I actually feel like a lot of the work that I do tries to like knock me off center. Interested that I’m not. Yeah, but but also it’s important. So I’m going to try to hear the question and I, I’m also working on seeing myself in the work that I do. Which I think is a lifelong project. Ari Wil 16:48 Yeah. So talking about this growth process in your professional life, because I’m 20. Londs Reuter 16:56 growing won’t stop. If you’re doing it right. In my opinion. So hopefully you’re still changing your mind when you’re my age. I can I say things I’m proud of, you know, I’m really proud to have disabled friends. That’s one thing I’ll say that I know people that work in accessibility that do it in service of people. But that those people like don’t come to their home, or like they don’t get beers together. And I’m, I’m proud that this work for me it’s different boundaries of my life. So that’s one thought I’m having. Ari Wil 17:49 Another quote that’s kind of like accesses love nothing about us. Without us. Yeah, I just feel like that’s nice that you let that into your life. Londs Reuter 17:57 Oh, yeah. I’ll say that too. thing about us without us is sort of like the was the rallying cry of the disability rights movement, which was like largely in the 90s and early 2000s. That sort of like first wave and disability movement. And I say like, second wave that we’re in right now is Disability Justice. Okay, cool. You’re nodding. Ari Wil 18:17 No, I’m here. Londs Reuter 18:18 Yeah, I just want to offer that. You know, another thing I’m proud of is that I am reasonably beginner level proficiency in American Sign Language. And that, thank you. At the Brooklyn Museum, there was a deaf school across the street. And I always, for years wanted to build a relationship between the school and the museum. And and the way I started to build a relationship was by learning ASL. And I would go to the school and I would take lessons with other parents and caregivers and lots of grandparents of like deaf kids at the school that like, they were learning how to communicate with their kids. And I was able to audit those classes in the museum paid for that, which I’m also very proud of. And so that when I started sign language tours at that Museum, I was able to welcome every person and introduce myself and like, not just like, hire someone else to do all of it. Yeah. But actually take the risk of like, speaking someone else’s language with them. And that, and I’ve continued to learn sign language and it’s also just like the most brilliant genius language that I quite obsessed with its practicality. Ari Wil 19:56 So you recommend picking it up? Londs Reuter 19:58 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you’re Like into languages is like, I find the language to be like, so straightforward and charming. And there are so few signs that I’ve learned that don’t make sense. Okay. Okay, like I learned a new sign and I’m like, Ari Wil 20:19 yeah, no Chinese is not like that at all. I was in China for a semester, and I came away with nothing. I mean, wow. Londs Reuter 20:35 Mandarin? Ari Wil 20:36 Yeah. Mandarin what’s the greatest obstacle to your work? Londs Reuter 20:40 Whoo. Okay, many, well, greatest? Stigma. I would say. I mean, I think that’s very hard about institutional work is I would say inheritance is that like, there’s turnover. There are different ways that like people leave different legacies and you inherit them. Yeah. And you inherit people’s baggage. And it might not even be the person who had your role before, but it’s just like who used to be the person that communicated with the person in your role? You know, like there’s that, in an institutional sense that I’d say inheritance is really hard. But I wouldn’t count that as the hardest. I would still say that stigma is like we’re so far from being in a place where that doesn’t negatively like it detrimentally affects almost every aspect of accessibility work. Both like in the work and I say, me too, you know, like, that’s not a thing I’ve totally eradicated from myself. Yeah. So Ari Wil 21:52 What would you say is the Whitney’s target audience? Londs Reuter 21:58 I don’t know that. I know Enough to answer that. Okay. target audience? I have been quite surprised since working here at how many sort of like tourists from other countries are coming to this museum that like I get an elevator and I hear English like every third time. Ari Wil 22:21 And then the elevator Brooklyn Museum? Londs Reuter 22:23 Yeah, that was like locals, lots of school kids. That was like a big project there. And some tourists but not to the same ratio, as I experience here, but I don’t know if that’s a target for the museum necessarily. I think. And I’m in a very particular vantage point in the museum where I’m actually really thinking about New Yorkers. I’m really thinking about like, meatpacking district I’m thinking about like, like, who lives in like pen south and Westbeth and just like this. So these are all like New York City Housing Authority sites. So like, they’re my audience in a way. And they’re my target, but I don’t think they see themselves that way. You know, so. Okay, yeah. Ari Wil 23:22 So you would say your audience is the local community? Londs Reuter 23:28 I guess I work with accessing community programs. So like, I want to make sure that like disabled people are part of the general public and that includes like staff and visitors and artists and all of it. And I also want to make sure that people that live down the block from the museum know that this is a museum that they can come to. Okay, whether they grew up with this museum down the street, Or they’ve lived here for eight years. And this has really transformed the neighborhood. Ari Wil 24:07 Do you feel like there’s one particular vantage point or view missing? More than another? Londs Reuter 24:16 missing? An interesting question. I woul want to think about that. There isn’t anything like immediately springing to mind. Ari Wil 24:34 okay to say no, I wouldn’t be surprised if you saw another email from me later. Just with like a follow up question thing. Londs Reuter 24:40 Cool. Ari Wil 24:41 So anything that I say mull it over..we also have like 10 minutes, okay. Yeah. But I want to talk a little bit about how you think we can manage implicit bias. Londs Reuter 24:55 Okay, let’s go there. Ari Wil 24:56 Yeah. And keeping people accountable for it. Londs Reuter 25:02 Yeah. Yeah. Ari Wil 25:04 Do have you felt implicit bias in your work? Have you ever catch yourself? Is this something that takes your thinking to the competition strategic planning? And then even you said like, you want to get disabled artist and you want to make them a part of the internal how do you do that without pigeonholing people and hiring someone? Just Just because you know, yeah. Londs Reuter 25:31 I mean, I don’t, I don’t hire people. I will say that, like, I don’t work in HR. I’m not a curator who selects the artists. I think I can be an accomplice to those hiring processes or like considering different artists but and I also think if I change the ways that people are seeing and viewing the world, and seeing themselves as like in implicit embedded in … Ari Wil 26:04 white supremacy? Londs Reuter 26:05 Yeah, I mean, like and and you know? Ari Wil 26:08 Yeah, just supremacy. Londs Reuter 26:09 Yeah. That like that can be in service of opening the door a little wider. Yeah. So I see my work in that way, but it is sort of like more conceptual and in a sense, though, I don’t think it’s really at a remove. So let’s say that I mean, yeah, implicit bias is sort of embedded in everything that I do. I think I do a lot of work. A lot of work on myself. I think I’ve had multiple situations where I’ve been held accountable for words, thoughts, decisions that didn’t actually align with the truth of the situation. And those are hard situations. They’ve gone best for me when they weren’t public, but when they were like personal and and gave me time and further harm wasn’t actually the goal from the person letting me in on the harm i’d caused. Those have been the most effective For me. So those are certainly processes that I’ve been through on multiple occasions. None here yet. It’s only been three months. And I think to like, I work in a spot that’s like quite vulnerable for an institution, you know, I’m like the one that’s actually that’s trying to do a lot of work. That from an institutional perspective just keeps us from getting complaints from a local community from disabled folks coming through the door, you know, like, I’m, I’m at the crossroads of that I’m not interested in keeping us from getting complaints. Like I’m interested in people having experiences with art and like going to a cultural institution, because they want to go on this day. But it’s a spot that can take a lot of heat. Especially thinking about community relationships for museum that moved here in 2015. And there’s only one meatpacking district. Yeah, business at all in the neighborhood anymore. And it’s next door and we’re looking to see if we can maybe expand there. So like, I am complicit in some actually that should not go on the record about that building next door. Okay, sorry. Okay. That’s noted. Thank you. But I think I share it to highlight the fact that like, I’m working in a mechanism that’s so much bigger than me that has like, histories that some things I agree with, and some things I don’t and ongoing choices that some of them I agree with, and some that I dont. Ari Wil 29:48 Still an institution, you know. Londs Reuter 29:51 And that’s like, embedded in the patronage model, which like, means that like we’re getting money from really wealthy donors. To the wealthy in the United States often means certain practices. And like is embedded in certain histories over others. And so I’m, I think not only is like my implicit bias at play, but I also know that like me as an individual can only do so much to redirect these resources. Yes. Ari Wil 30:29 You’re still working with in it. Londs Reuter 30:30 I’m working with in it. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I think, really complicated. Ari Wil 30:36 Thank you for being honest about that. I think that whole thing was always kind of hard to talk about. What resources do you need to do your work? Londs Reuter 30:51 Great questions. Ari Wil 30:53 Thank you. Londs Reuter 30:58 Friends. I would say friends and community is like a very important component of this. I think if I were like, isolated and out of touch with real people making real choices, my work would be at a disconnect. So that feels actually like the first and most important thing. I think access, as we currently conceive it, is can be quite expensive. So I won’t. So I don’t want to forget that like financial resources make a lot of this work possible. Though, I think there’s a lot of ingenuity possible for thinking about access in ways that aren’t super expensive. Ari Wil 31:53 Is that why you say friends was like your primary resource, because from everyone else, and not everyone else will make that general statemtent, But I keep hearing budget as the biggest one. Hmm. So you saying friends was nice, but do you think that runs does then kind of shifted where like money is a nice resource to have. But if you have friends, it’s more like you can make other dreams happen? Londs Reuter 32:19 Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Yeah, everyone’s so much market administrator than me. I mean, it matters getting it in the budget, especially for thinking institutionally. And it matters getting it in everyone’s budget, not just in your like access budget here, but because in an institution, there are lots of glitches. But I guess for me, it’s like if I have friends that are alerting me to things and showing me new ways to like to practice access then like Often, I’m learning about things that don’t cost money, like just adding image descriptions, to, you know, it’s going to take three more minutes of my day, but like, that’s not, I mean, that’s three minutes of money. It’s okay. I mean, but like, friends don’t necessarily pay the ASL interpreter, you know? So they’re like, I see. I would hold them both in like high regard. I guess I just I never want to take people out of the equation. So like putting budgets as the most important thing feels like. But what about people? For me. So that’s where I’m at? Ari Wil 33:45 Yeah. It is 1145 now, okay. Do you think that maybe I can send you the questions or we can do some kind of follow up or something. What do you think? Londs Reuter 33:57 Uh, yeah, I mean, I just have to be somewhere at noon and I want to check my computer before I get there, Ari Wil 34:03 but I wouldn’t really rather you do that because like the way like these questions are kind of, you know, add some girth to them. Londs Reuter 34:10 Okay. Cool. Ari Wil 34:11 I wouldn’t even mind you like doing a voicemail If you would prefer that, you know, like I can send you them and then just talk or literally anything. Okay, I’m very down. Londs Reuter 34:21 That would be nice. A voice note. Ari Wil 34:22 okay. We can email about it. And so yeah, thank you. Yes. Anything else? Any other questions you have for me? or anything else want to say for the record? Londs Reuter 34:34 I’d love you to check with me. For anything shard publicly. Ari Wil 34:42 Yeah. Londs Reuter 34:43 it’s just to say that you offered at the start, but I’m new here and I would just want the chance to make sure that I’m not misrepresenting. Ari Wil 34:55 Yes. Londs Reuter 34:59 But that’s the only I’m really, I’m really thinking. Ari Wil 35:04 yeah, I can definitely do that. Cool. Londs Reuter 35:05 All right. Thank you for this project for you. Ari Wil 35:07 Thank you.

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accessthearts · 6 years ago

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Ari Wil 0:00 Okay, um, could you introduce yourself and maybe say your occupation? Ellysheva Z. 0:04 Sure, you don’t mind it on the donut crumbs? So I’m Ellysheva B.Z. and my title at the tenement museum is education specialist for access and food programs. Ari Wil 0:17 Okay, I did see that, that it’s an access and food program. So I want to clarify that. What is food programs? Ellysheva Z. 0:23 Food programs, we do two different types of food programs at the tenement museum. We have a food walking tour, and we have a sit down dinner program. It’s just another way to talk about immigration migrants and refugees in the neighborhood and the ways that they’re doing business and how those groups of people have impacted the lives of Americans. Talking about it through food is something that’s very accessible to people in different ways. It’s you know, you eat I we all love eating so let’s talk about how..what kind of impact kind of food has on us and What kind of food impact impact food has when you go from one place to another. Ari Wil 1:05 So would it be kind of fair to say that you’re using food almost synonymous like community? Ellysheva Z. 1:11 Totally. Okay. I think, yeah, building community food helps us build community across disparate communities. So like, I have a favorite food, have you ever favorite food and we can talk about what that means to each other and how we’re connected through that. Okay, um, it’s just there are lots of ways at the tenement museum that we’re trying to get people to make connections. And I’m a big fan of keeping those connections broad, because we can’t expect somebody to necessarily from their viewpoint from their ability level to make the connection that like, I have, like similar experiences to immagrants that leave might not always be possible. And there are lots of Ways to try to make that happen. But just the basic level of connection like you like to, I like to eat. Yeah. And that can be enough. And that can be a place where you get to somewhere else. Yeah. The director, Vice President and the president of education, whatever the person who is my grand boss, so the bottom of my boss, the other night said something about how when we are giving tours and when we’re talking about these populations, we’re not there’s no way we can necessarily always change thinking we can make a change, but we can forward the conversation. That sometimes we can get all the way there but knowing that you’re making progress in a conversation is just as important. Ari Wil 2:47 Okay, yeah. Um, how long have you had this position? I’ve had this position since 2013. Six years, I guess. and how old is the position? Ellysheva Z. 2:56 The position I i’ve been.. I know most of the people who have had this position before me because the accessibility in museums world is very, very small. I think at certain points. This job has been combined with other jobs in different ways. But the museum was founded by two women who wanted to create a museum for everyone. And I actually asked recently, one of the founders, we did an event and I asked her like, hey, I’ve always theorized that the museum has been so entrenched in accessibility for so long, because between the time we just they discovered the building and the Time magazine was founded, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed. So I thought, like, Oh, this law was passed. We were like, shoot, we need to get on this. And she said, Yes, partially it but it was also partially that we wanted to make sure in as many ways as we could, that this museum was accessible to as many people as we could. That’s cool. It’s had different iterations and different times. So I don’t think I can necessarily say like, how long this position has been around. I know the person that I had this postion before me, it was half of their job. Whereas for a while it was 100% of my job. And now it’s like I’d say 80% of my job. Ari Wil 4:21 Whats the other 20? Ellysheva Z. 4:22 Food Programs. Ari Wil 4:23 Oh, well, no, well, that’s still in the in the realm. Okay, what do you think that I’m not what do you think about what typically does it get paired with like,your accessibility and you’re..? Ellysheva Z. 4:35 Access and community programs. What I see more often than not and other institutions access and food programs is something I’ve never seen. Ari Wil 4:42 Okay, well, that’s cool. Yeah. And what did you guys coin the thing food program? Like when did that start? Ellysheva Z. 4:48 I think we started two programs around 2012 ? With the guy who was in charge of walking tours, he created an offshoot of a food walking tour and then we created it like a sit down in your version of the And then he left and someone else took over them, they left and I have been working with food programs since maybe around 2012 when they were first brought into the museum, so I have a good background knowledge of them. And I also helped him with kind of like the backend stuff of those programs. So it was just like, you know, this and it’s, we can like talk like, we can talk ourselves into a corner that it’s accessible. Like, yeah, we can like make the argument, so thats how I got it. Ari Wil 5:29 Okay. I’m sorry. Another question about the program- has it been engaging Ellysheva Z. 5:38 The work or the themselves programs? Ari Wil 5:39 The food programs themselves? Yeah, have they been like effective and engaging? Ellysheva Z. 5:42 Yeah, they’ve definitely been effective and engaging. People really enjoy them be really like them. We like to get people to kind of talk about themselves and their stories. And I think food programs are one of the easiest ways that that happens because everyone loves to talk about the food that they like the food that they make of the food, their mom or grandma Mom or dad or whoever made so they’re engaging in that way. And I think people really like to uncover like, what American food is. And like, we American food is like nothing. Ari Wil 6:13 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I think people get really excited with that very concrete, like, American food is a mix of everything. There’s definitely some challenges with the program of course, but it is really good time. We’re talking about challenges sense you guys primarily can only have the guided tour.. what challenges and opportunities because having guided tours? Ellysheva Z. 6:44 So I can start with opportunities. I like starting with the good stuff first. Um, I think one of the greatest opportunities we have in a guided tour and a guided tour format is that we can meet the needs of visitors like face to face so we can As long you know, as long as people tell us in a certain sense, but we can also kind of read a group and think like, oh, okay, so these are your needs, this is how I might adjust your tour for you. And because we have so many different versions of our programs, and sometimes that’s just like for school groups or for you know, just different audiences, there are separate things that we can take, like things that are toolboxes really large, because we work with so many different audiences. And we don’t really segment audiences so it’s not like we have only school group educators who work with schools, okay, they work with school grab, standpoint. So they can also just say, like, Oh, I’m going to grab this Ari Wil 7:49 Resource or strategy? Ellysheva Z. 7:51 That’s really great. Um, and it also allows us to like kind of, Like the tools that we have available, an educator a guide can give them to you and let them know you are there. They’re available, we get to talk to every single person that comes to the museum, right and try our best to make sure they get what they need to enjoy the experience. And I think that’s really, really exciting. It also gives us a chance to like, do verbal description a lot. But I think that’s a really good example where like, we encourage educators to use verbal description on all of their tours, but then we all can also specialize towards the focus on verbal description. And so there’s just a lot of ways we can mold that format to fit our needs. I think there are a couple of different drawbacks. I think a lot of drawbacks, a lot of drawbacks that I often think of focus on our building itself, because it is not fully wheelchair accessible. It is really small cramped and crowded and there are a lot of people who either That makes it inaccessible to them, or really uncomfortable for them. And so that’s really challenging. Our building is really challenging because it is. It’s it’s been abandoned for so long. It’s very delicate, like from a presentation standpoint. Yeah. So there are things we can’t do there, which is challenging. But I think with a guided tour, there are people who don’t want to listen to a lecture, and that doesn’t fit best with like, what they need in a learning environment. And we don’t have a lot of opportunities for self directed learning. And that that is really challenging. Ari Wil 9:36 I,okay, that’s a really good point to be made. Ellysheva Z. 9:40 Yeah. Ari Wil 9:42 You were, you’re talking about educators and how they can like the diverse in the resources they utilize. How do you guys prepare them? There’s a it’s a it’s a pretty intense process. We give to our context, you learn one tour at a time Your first tour, you get a big packet of content, you read it over, you observe people giving the tour twice different people. Hopefully, you get a walkthrough of the tour itself. And then you are evaluated by staff members. For each additional program you learn that process is more or less repeated. We do a lot of observations of other programs, we have a lot of resources. And we also do a lot of training. There’s different training I do for accessibility. And then for the way that we kind of see our storytelling method. We call it facilitated “storytelling”. And it’s about kind of like bringing the visitor into the storytelling process and finding ways to incorporate their knowledge and their participation in the creation of that tour and that story in that moment. So there’s a lot of training and a lot of resources and a lot of observations that go into that. Besides the preliminary trainign You guys do like, you’ve been here for two years heres an update training ? Ellysheva Z. 11:04 sometimes Yeah, we do monthly meetings. And we bring scholars in usually to talk about, we bring in scholars or experts to talk about things that either relevant to the tour content or relevant to the current experience experiences being an immigrant or a refugee, or we do like update trainings where we’re like, bringing new things in or thinking about better ways to craft our stories or connect with our visitors. So their monthly trainings And right now, our trainings are mostly within your first year. Outside of those educator meetings, we don’t do a lot of trainings for people who have been here too much longer, but I think that’s definitely where we can grow in the future. Ari Wil 11:57 Yeah, definitley something note, that potentially. Ellysheva Z. 12:00 Totally. Ari Wil 12:00 Um, well then also back to the building, how you work around physical barriers to access? And then I also want to know more about getting that elevator? I don’t think we’ll ever get an elevator in 97 orchard street just because there’s actually no place to put it. This really interesting thing happened that I don’t have any necessarily documentation for but I’ve heard stories. So in the very beginnings of the museum with that founders, they wanted to acquire the building next door, and they tried to do it through eminent domain. She know about eminent domain? No. Ellysheva Z. 12:42 Ok, I’m going to domain is when an institution usually it’s the government says I have a better use when you’re building your space your property than you do. And so I am going to acquire it from you by force. It was Yes, it’s it’s it’s how a lot of bridges got built. Its how a lot of streets have gotten like widened for like double lane traffic. Ari Wil 13:05 Yeah, in Boston. That happened all the time. Ellysheva Z. 13:07 Yeah, eminent domain is did I do to my phone? Yeah. So great. Well, cool. Thanks. Um, so they wanted to acquire the building next door whith eminent domain so they could put an elevator kind of like carve out the building next door use.. Ari Wil 13:22 I love neocolonialism, but for access. Like, yeah, definitely, definitely created like bad feelings within the neighborhood towards the tenement museum. There are some neighbors and residents who still remember that and like fucking hate us. Spicy. Ellysheva Z. 13:41 Yeah, totally. So there’s that. So there’s because because our building doesn’t have an elevator because it is like in this preserved state. It was a time capsule from 1935 until the building was discovered by these two founders. So everything Just left as is, which is crazy. But the hallways are really narrow. So we’d have to net wide wide in the hallways and like take out the stairs to put in an elevator, we’d have to get rid of so much historic character of the building that it is literally never going to happen. But every time we’ve had the chance to put in some sort of elevator technology, we’ve done it. So when we, the basement became a tour became an exhibit in 2012. And at that point we had we put in a platform lift. So it goes from sidewalk level to basement level. And then because we had to really recreate that space in a way that we’ve never had to before all the doorways are wide enough, all the hallways are widened. And the same thing with our exhibit that we finished like two years ago, that has an elevator because we kind of redid that whole building and we did put in the doorways and hallways and things that are necessary. There’s one door that was alm,ost not wide enough. And I was like so pissed. But it happened and we’re fine. Ari Wil 15:06 Nice. Ellysheva Z. 15:08 That was frustrating. So wait, what was the question? Ari Wil 15:12 Oh, yeah. How do you work around barriers like physical barrier? Yeah. Sometimes it’s putting in elevators and places where they aren’t supposed to go where we can or that they weren’t built to go. They’re supposed to go wherever we can put them in. The other interesting thing we do is we have a lot of neighborhood tours, neighborhood walking tours, and those follow wheelchair wheelchair accessible routes. So as we expand what we do, we’re finding other accessible venues to put those things in. We’re also kind of trying to reach into the digital world. We’re starting to do starting to experiment with distance learning where you like do a video conference to a classroom somewhere far away and that’s a great way to bring accessibility and as well because that can go to students who might not be able to come we also So have a Google expedition, which we worked with WNET, which is the local like PBS, in New York, and they created this 3d, like virtual reality viewer into the tenement museum. So that’s a kind of way that we build accessibility. And sometimes it’s just like special access. Like, our rooms are narrow and cramped, and all that stuff. So we do early morning or later afternoon tours for visitors on the autism spectrum and their families. Just like if you need to be alone. Great. Let’s do it. Tomorrow, I’m doing this like sometimes we just go above and beyond when we can like if somebody needs to, because we also don’t allow mobility devices to be carried into the building or people to be carried into the building, just for the surroundings and also for like emergency purposes. Cuz it’s a rough situation to be in. But tomorrow, a teacher book to school group, one of their kids had mobility concerns at the beginning of the year. But those progressed into a point where the student is now using a wheelchair. And the tours that they booked are not wheelchair accessible. So I spent a long time on the phone with that teacher. And we created a plan of what the student is going to do. And they figured out how the student might be able to get into the building with a little support from their physical therapist, and I’m going to do a virtual tour with them. And we’re going to keep them with their class as much as possible. Yeah, sometimes just taking that time to create an experience where you might not have one otherwise if you didn’t take the time. Have you ever gotten like a really intense response when you’re not able to meet me? Ellysheva Z. 17:52 Oh, definitely. Definitely. The last time I’m thinking about it, I mean, There was a I did a similar thing with another student whose teacher didn’t check in advance to see if the floor was wheelchair accessible. And and she and I were in a room and we did the virtual tour and it was great. And then he realized, like he was little he was like second grade and he realized he wasn’t with his friends at one point and started to cry. It’s like, I understand, like, yeah. And one time, somebody came in as like a walk up and they wanted an ASL interpreter. They wanted an ASL tour. They actually just wanted to go in and look around. I was like, we don’t do that. We can’t do that. And they’re like, well, these guided tours are discriminatory towards people who use sign language. And I’m like, I totally understand where your perspective comes from. I don’t feel that way. But I know… Ari Wil 18:52 But its true, if everyday youre working through the system that’s against you. Ellysheva Z. 18:55 Oh, yeah, yeah. Ari Wil 18:56 yeah. Ellysheva Z. 18:57 So it doesn’t happen often. But it does happen. Ari Wil 19:01 Were you able to get them an ASL? Ellysheva Z. 19:04 I can’t do day of. I need two weeks. I’ve tried to do in less than two weeks and it’s extremely difficult to get an ASL interpreter lesson in less than two weeks. Ari Wil 19:16 You guys have your own on retainer? Ellysheva Z. 19:19 No, We do have a we work with a couple of contractors who do ASL tours, their death and they do the tours themselves. And it’s an all in ASL experience. And those are free and they happen once every other month. So there’s like things that we’re offering. Yeah, but when your needs can’t be met, and you were like expecting your needs to be met. That’s a really frustrating situation. I totally understood that perspective. And yeah, yeah, there are limits we have that really suck. Yeah. Ari Wil 19:50 Um, alright. I want to talk a little bit about audience. Sure. In your blog post. It’s on the tenement museum. Ellysheva Z. 20:09 Oh, cool. Long time ago. Alright. Ari Wil 20:12 Yeah, I think it’s from like 2017. Um, you use the word “wide audience” I use the word wide audience to in my research, the aim is to reach a wider audience, right in accessibility work. What’s a wider audience? What actually does that mean to you? Ellysheva Z. 20:28 I think whenever I say a wide audience, I’m thinking about people who like identify as having a disability and getting their needs met, and people who don’t identify as having a disability but also having accessibility needs and that they’re just not categorizing that way. It’s kind of like trying to accommodate for as many people as possible. Yeah. And that’s from my perspective, in the work that I do, but I know they’re definitely ways where we’re, you know, we’re always trying to bring in people from a wide Audience across the board, like, with background and race and class. And at least from the education department standpoint, that’s what we’re trying to do. But sometimes kind of, especially with socio economic status, there’s a lot that we’re trying to do to bring in people for free. But there are things that you know, we can struggle against the people in the museum whose job it is, is to, you know, make the money and like, look at the money. There are things that we’re like not doing that we would like to do, but we’re like making small steps and like, widening our audience in a lot of different ways. There are a lot of internal efforts that we’re doing to broaden and widen our audience, you know, on all different fronts Ari Wil 21:49 To clarify, when you say access, you’re including area like marginalized people of everywhere? Ellysheva Z. 21:57 that’s more the definition that we’re starting to Look at in the tenement Museum, okay, um, we’re kind of like the overall umbrella of access. We have like these teams that really haven’t met in a while we have a new newish strategic plan. And we were all kind of put into these teams to like, bring forth this change. And so the accessibility team access team was like thinking about people with disabilities, and people speak languages other than English, and people have different socio economic statuses. And so there’s there’s definitely ways that we’re looking at that in a broader sense. I think we’re continuing to broaden that all the time. There’s definitely work that we want to do. Ari Wil 22:43 Because in my research, I say access and inclusion Yeah, and so now I’m like, I kind of like that I have an inclusion of like, makes the point of like access to the next like, cover all intersectionalities is definitely but having so many “ands” in my research bothers me so I don’t know if “access” will be the appropriate thing. I don’t know. Ellysheva Z. 23:03 I think, I mean, I don’t know a lot about research. But I think if you define what you mean, you define it once, right? It can be whatever you want it to be. Ari Wil 23:12 I love that. Actually, you’re right. If I start off just saying what I’m saying. Yeah, exactly. Include. Yeah, good point. Um, well, what was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. Okay, well, we’re talking about socio economic stuff to, this is kind of just like my, my question that’s, like, keeps me up at night. Oh, totally, um, is we can have free admission prices. But can we deal with the cultural barriers that prevent people who are homeless from coming into museums? Yeah, it’s tough. I mean, Ellysheva Z. 24:04 I think there are, like when you think about your traditional museum with like, it’s like grand architecture and like brick and mortar, I think that can be just so intimidating to people feel like they don’t belong there. Don’t think there’s anything that we’re currently doing at the museum that kind of addresses that. But I do know that because of our location in the neighborhood that we’re in, and because of we have a visitor center and a bookshop, that’s kind of like, open and on the street. And that’s like our biggest public face and we have chairs and we have a movie. People will come in and spend time there. Ari Wil 24:54 That’s, cool. Ellysheva Z. 24:56 Actually, I was walking home from the subway the other day, and someone stops me Like, I don’t, I am making assumptions. I’m saying like, maybe they are homeless. they’re experiencing homelessness. But they were like, are you in the movie? In the museum over there? They play a movie and you’re in and I’m like, yeah. And she’s like, I spend a lot of time in there. I was like this really cool. Thanks for recognizing me. So that definitely I didn’t know that people like went in there and just hung out and like.. Ari Wil 25:34 That’s really cool. You said that because when another interview I did with someone PS1 MoMA, yeah. also had to say like, no, we’re not doing anything to address that issue. But I think that what we could do is increase the amount of dwelling spaces we have. Sure. So we just had casual dwelling spaces, literally anywhere in the museum. I’m sure that people would come in so it’s nice to see like now an example of that. Yeah, yeah. Like just Having space to be in can make a difference. Yeah, exactly. Safety is so important to like comfortability and and also access like it. Full Circle. And I know that we define the audience for trying to attract as a wide audience, right? What is your target audience like, our current audience, your current? Ellysheva Z. 26:03 Yeah, I think there’s like there’s a lot of we do I think there are people, there’s a lot of you know, issues that people are dealing with and in New York City in a city you see a lot of those and we do sometimes get people who I don’t know what they’re experiencing but they definitely are threatening in various ways at different times. And that can be you know, a struggle for the educators safety and visitors safety and staff safety and so it’s definitely something that like looking to positively is like we there’s a space for people to hang out and just spend time but also that comes with concerns for sure. So I think it depends on like, what section of audience we’re like thinking about when we’re talking about like, who is an everyday visitor, we get, like 30% of people from the New York area 30% of people from the tri state area and 30% of people internationally, like a third from each. And I think all of those people have disposable income generally, and all of those people. I mean, not all of those people, I think a large percentage of those people are definitely white. I think we skew older. We have like an older generation that’s coming. I think more and more as word spreads. We’re getting a more diverse audience in some ways, and not in others because we have we have an expensive ticket and I think that we Don’t do a whole lot of free programming. And the free program that we do is very, very targeted. So like, accessibility programming is free. And that really brings in New Yorkers, and generally brings in older New Yorkers with disabilities. And it brings in the museum crowd, the people already feel comfortable in museums, there’s like a circuit of them. And people go from museum to Museum, museum Museum, and that’s kind of very social interaction. It’s it’s still like, it’s always more diverse than I expect it to be, which is great. But it’s still a very small subsection of any other free programming that we do is we do we work with English classes like English learning schools throughout New York, and we offer programming that’s free to English language learners. And they come in for specialized programming for English language learners, and that’s really great and that has a very Specific like they are all immigrants Yeah. And their immigrants from all over it really depends on what school what class sometimes it’s like a lot of people from the same place and sometimes it’s a bunch of people from different places. We definitely get a lot of Spanish speakers so Ari Wil 29:17 Do you guys have like translated placards ? Ellysheva Z. 29:21 Nope we don’t have any placards anywhere. Um, we do have a guide books in different languages that kind of give you an outline of the tour so people can follow along. But language is definitely one of the accessibility areas that we want to like branch into. And all of the programming that we do this free for English language learners is like at language level, but in English, so we have beginner programs, we have intermediate programs and we have like advanced program and the educators would give those tours have like a little bit more experience in creating good learning experiences for that group. Ari Wil 30:00 Do you think that it’s a predominantly white space? because historically? Ellysheva Z. 30:05 I think there’s a lot of different things. I think it’s I think part of it is cost. I think part of it is the stories that we are currently telling. We’re telling a lot of stories about like white Europeans, we’re branching into different spaces. And we are like expanding the stories that we tell for sure. We also don’t do a lot of advertising. So the way most people find out about it is like by reading the newspaper or seeing something online or hearing about it from a friend. Yeah. Ari Wil 30:36 So it stays in that bubble. Ellysheva Z. 30:39 I think so. Um, but we do get, I think, what we get school students from all over New York, and we get that more diversity through the school audience. Teachers are booking the trips, and they know that it’s a place to come because like curriculum In New York and I think the United States you’re studying immigration at certain points in time. So like it fits with curriculum. Yeah, to bring them here. Yeah. And so we do get like, a lot of different students that way. And possibly they’re going home to their parents and being like, this is really cool. We should come back. But, yeah, okay. Ari Wil 31:21 Interesting. Um, okay. Um, how much do you work across departments? Ellysheva Z. 31:40 So much. I work within the education department a lot. I work with visitor services because they’re another front facing staff cool. And there are a lot of things that they offer and that they do because they are the ones who like see the visitors first, so alot with them. I work a fair amount with development. Because they raised the money and so yeah, they raised the money. I work with the curatorial departments sometimes because I’m like, Hey, can we touch this thing? Like just for this one time? Can we touch this thing? And they’re like in the education department, because tours are the, like primary ways that visitors like are interacting with the museum. We interact with almost every other department, because its facilities are talking to visitor services. We talked to finance because we spend the money and we don’t interact with them a lot. And that’s a tough relationship, but HR, because we have a lot of employees. Yeah. Well, how do you manage that and keep people accountable? Because I’m sure that it’s a far reaching thing. Yeah, it’s really tough, keeping people accountable. It’s like I do have to like, get on people. Like, reminders and check ins and that can be really challenging because things become more important or less important. And some things just fall to the wayside. What I’m working on right now, as we started an inclusion and equity, access and Diversity Council, we put it in that order. So it can spell IDEA because that’s like the cheesiest. Ari Wil 33:23 I love that. Ellysheva Z. 33:26 IDEA Council and I requested to be honest, I don’t know, I was like, I’m going to do that because it’s important. Like, I have seen, like, there’s so much more of that work that’s coming in through museums and that people are paying attention to more and that’s like really great, but I often find that the accessibility part of that like, section gets left out. Like when we’re talking about equity inclusion diversity. People will say access or people will not say access, but in many ways it gets like left out. Ari Wil 33:59 Abelism is just rampant though it just seems like something that like really have gone unchecked. It just is so unchecked, Ellysheva Z. 34:06 So ucnhecked. So that makes sense. Yeah. So I was like, I need to be here because I need to make this happen. And they need to make sure it’s considered and like really baked in. And it’s, it’s, it’s working, I think there’s so many more ways to grow. But one way that we are growing, the project that I’m working on for that Council is to create a baseline and accessibility baseline throughout the museum. So like, these are the standards for creating exhibits, films for creating print material for creating online content, for creating tours for doing events like this is what you need to consider to make it accessible. And this is the level that we’re going to get to and then next year, we’re going to build then next year, we’re going to build this section and next year, we’re going to build it and within that plan. What I’m going to make everybody do is write a plan for how they’re going to meet baseline for every department. Ari Wil 34:58 Whoa. Cool. Ellysheva Z. 34:59 So we’ll see how It goes, it could fail horribly. That’s what I’m mostly worried about. But it’s a good it’s a good try. I’m beginning to think a lot about what happens when I leave. Because I’ve been there. All total to the tenement museum. I’ve been there for about 10 years. Yeah. So it’s like time to move somewhere else. And it’s, so I want to put a lot of things in place to make sure the work that I did and do doesn’t just fall apart, Ari Wil 35:27 Ya no, exactly. That’s the that’s the biggest tragedy and the work that we do and yeah, it’s starting these programs, like to no avail. Yeah. So do you think that maybe putting in place like a guideline, like guidelines, would work as the best practice? Ellysheva Z. 35:44 I don’t know. Because I found it. I found it really challenging. Okay, here’s what I think is the best practice around that is making institutional practice. Make accessibility institutional practice. And like I think that’s the goal I’m working towards with these guidelines, it doesn’t have to be guidelines or a baseline or whatever else. But making it making it institutional and making it everybody’s job, I think is the best practice to making an accessible institution. Ari Wil 36:20 And I know that you said you don’t have experiences with other institutions. But do you think smaller institutions can do this work? Ellysheva Z. 36:37 I think they can. Some ways, it’s almost easier for smaller institutions to do it. Because it’s, it’s really from what I see or what I imagine it’s really hard to change a big institution. Like it’s harder because there’s more people and there’s more like things that are built in and baked in just with more history, there. So think small institutions, with people who are thinking about these things I think it is possible. I think, you know, it’s just that willingness to make those changes. Yeah. And like, some big institutions just has such a like, mind blowing head starts, like, the MET. The Metropolitan Museum market has been doing accessibility programs since the 19teens. Yeah. Ari Wil 37:29 Yeah. Yeah. But how does your institution have been worried about the noise? How does your institution like the big thing, support and inhibit you? Ellysheva Z. 37:42 I think the way it supports me, my institution is that there are a lot of people in this like, my work is visible and people see it happen. And people can like see how that’s important to us. And I get to like talk to a lot of people. I think that structure of like a small, a medium museum really does help. I think the way in which the institution itself kind of works against the work that we do is we don’t have an endowment. Like we don’t have like, a pool of money that we can draw on when times get tough. It’s all about fundraising and ticket sales and things like that. And so because we don’t have like unlimited funds, and we, we have to a lot of people, me, we have to focus, right, we can’t do every thing. And so there are some people who are like, well, we can’t, accessibility is expensive. Accessibility is just, we can’t do it because it costs too much and it takes too much. And there are people who are not as committed to it because they don’t see it in that same kind of way. And I think Not not from any, like, necessarily ableist perspective, or at least like I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt because it’s easier to work with people when you’re not like, Yeah, um, but there might be thinking about costs, they might be thinking about time, because we have so many people working so hard. And so many things with accessibility are just time consuming and expensive. Yeah, so I think that reality, so just to be like capitalism. Yeah. Yeah, that’s really what’s against me. It’s just like we live in a capitalist society. I think about that alot. I don’t I don’t I don’t see any way out of it. Like, yeah, yeah. Ari Wil 39:50 Yeah this is where we are. Yeah those damn capitalist. Well, what was I gonna say. That aggressive had not really. took out of it. I get it. Oh, yeah, so I was another panel that was like one of the most important things that you can do for accessibility is just carve out a budget for it like you have to budget for accessibility. Ellysheva Z. 40:13 Yeap. Ari Wil 40:15 I just I just made me think of that. Do you have any thoughts on budgeting? Ellysheva Z. 40:19 I do. I think carving out a budget for accessibility is great. I do I always had a budget for accessibility. I have a separate budget for accessibility outside of education, which is fascinating. And like, I just, I go big. I’m like, I want these things. And they’re like, you can’t have these things. That sucks. Because sometimes those aren’t the things that were like extra, you know, yeah. But this year was the first I think I just kept doing it kept doing it. This is the first year I’ve gotten everything approved in my budget, which is great. But we’re having a tough budget year so I don’t know what’s gonna end up happening. Yeah. But the other thing is, is I’m trying to get other people to budget for it. And that’s hard. Ari Wil 41:08 Really? Ellysheva Z. 41:08 Because like, like, for example is very specific example, we have all these folding stores that are like really handy. And visitors use them for all different kinds of things. I like to keep the ones that are the education departments in the building, because that’s where we need the the seats. visitor services likes having some because visitors request seating. So it’s like, well, you know, you should get your own that are a different color so we can tell between them and you’re not just like constantly, yeah, trying to take my stools. They didn’t. They didn’t budget for it. And I have no control over their budget you know, process. I’m in my own department and I can check in on everybody else’s department. So like budgeting is great, but if you don’t have control over it, like. The other thing is, is having my own budget is great. But also, that means people don’t have to spend their own budget funding. And because I’m not, like part of a part of the education department, I’m not part of anything higher than that. Like, I’m trying to get more captioning in everything that we do, which is the law. Bare minimum. But, but I was like, I wanted to get us a captioning funds through the IDEA Council, so that when somebody needs something caption, they can go there and take that. No, It didn’t happen. But I made myself a captioning budget. I’m not giving it up, because I shouldn’t use this word. And it’s just like, that can be really frustrating. People are like, oh, but you have that money and you have that budget, so I don’t need to do it. Ari Wil 42:58 No exactly that’s working. across departments and trying to keep people accountable like this is what? ya know what we’re trying to do. Yeah. So challenging… Oh, um there’s a question about a chart. The chart Yeah. I was just wondering, you you’re, you’re, you’re a sunny person totally and like a positive human being, um, but is it anything outside of like optimism that has the language of the chart in like, what you guys can do instead of here, all the barriers? Ellysheva Z. 43:49 I, I inherited the chart, and then I just updated it as we went along. So I do think, I think we have a mix on our website. I think the reason the chart is so handy is because there’s so much information and like combing through that information is challenging, you know, the chart is helpful, because you can just, Ari Wil 44:13 it’s true. Here’s where I am, right. It’s true. No, that’s good. About that wasn’t really a question. Ellysheva Z. 44:18 I got you. talking and positives is helpful, what we can do versus what we can’t do. But I think it’s also very important to be very explicit about what we cannot do. Yes, then that’s our new website is really great, because each tour has its own page. And there’s a lot of information on the page and I was also able to get this accessibility section where it’s like the this store has this this store has this this one has this store has this so that people can see that and then make decisions from there. Ari Wil 44:50 Cool. Okay. Yeah, I think that the best advice I’ve been given, it’s just to be honest, and the more honest you are and the more you communicate.Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then this is looks like it may be my final question. Um, what responses have you got into your work? From patrons from your co workers? And for yourself, like, how do you respond to your work? Ellysheva Z. 45:15 Yeah. Um, let’s see, I’m co workers. I have a lot of great co workers within the education department who, who really have kind of taken these perspectives on in their own work. And that’s really nice. And different people have different reactions to that. But I’ve had there’s one co worker who ended up leaving and he would text me and say, like, I’ve been, like thinking about accessibility in this new job that I have, and I feel like I have my voice in your ear, your voice in my ear. But I think I get that a lot like that. Like I was away and we were doing an educator meeting and I’ve been trying to make those meetings more accessible. We’ve been using microphones to, like get the sound amplified a little bit more, but I wasn’t there. And so at the outset of it, there was no microphone. But one of my colleagues was like, I’m hearing Ellysheva. I think we need a microphone. That’s great. That’s great. Yeah. And I think I do. And I, like I see that in my department and other departments. And like, you know, there’s a lot of young people that work at the museum. And I think that they see the work, they hear the work that I’m doing, they see where or I tell them where I’m having barriers, and they from kind of just like a wider social justice perspective that I think a lot of young people have, they can see like, Oh, this stuff is crucial. And I think that’s really important. Patrons are so great. We have repetitive patrons, which is both great and also I’m like, Where are the other people but that’s a different story, but some of them like I think one of their to two comments that I love so much and One person said, I didn’t know if this museum was for me. But then I saw touch tour and I came on, I touch tour. And I found out that this museum is absolutely for me. Like, that’s phenomenal. This one time, we also had a family comd with mother who had low vision her husband and their son. And the son started out, sitting on some chairs, reading a book. And we took out the things that we use to make the museum a more accessible experience. And he put down his book and he came over and touched it. And like he was super into it. And I it was, it was one of the I don’t remember exactly where it was in the like chronology of touch tours, but at the end, I asked for an email feedback. Like if you like this, please email me please call me and tell me about it because that’s how we continue this. And this like, literally 10 year old boy came up to me was like, I would like your business card so that I can send you an email about how I like this tour. And it was the cutest email and the thing he said that I think for him was probably a throwaway line, but for me was like everything was this was something I could do together with my family. Like it was about, he was connected to the families we were talking about, but also connecting to the fact that it was something that they could all do together. Yeah. So like, there’s so many, like, there’s so many moments of that, where, like, people just thank me for the experience that I’m helping to provide to them. Yeah, seeing it, like something that’s really exciting and really helpful and really wonderful. And that’s just great. Um, I think what it has done for me, um, the reactions that I had to my work is I mean, like, sometimes it’s tiring, and sometimes it’s hard. But I have always really wanted to do something that was social justice related. I didn’t know that when I was a kid, it was just like, I want to, quote unquote, help people. Yeah. But I think social justice is a different way to do that. And I don’t know if I am doing this work has made me see myself as somebody isn’t just like working on a one to one. But seeing like, there are things that I can do to actively change society for the better, even if it is on a smaller scale. Like it’s definitely plugged me into, to a cause that I am passionate about, to a different way of seeing the world to like a different perspective and something that I’m really excited to do for hopefully the rest of my life. Ari Wil 49:46 That just reminded me that I totally didn’t mention that you’re a part of the museum access consortium. Ellysheva Z. 49:56 Just Just because I would probably get in trouble if I didn’t say that. We are Now the museum arts and culture access Consortium, because we have like zoos and Botanic Gardens and theaters that are part of the consortium, doing it all over the place. Ari Wil 50:13 But, um, I don’t know if there’s anything you want to say about that, or any last thoughts, kind of just wrap it up? Ellysheva Z. 50:24 I like that a lot. I really do. It’s a wonderful way to connect with colleagues, and to like, try to further this work outside of the work that I’m doing. But it’s all volunteer, and that’s really hard. Ari Wil 50:42 What do you mean? Ellysheva Z. 50:43 I don’t get paid for that. Ari Wil 50:44 You don’t get paid for that? Ellysheva Z. 50:45 Oh, yeah. like nobody, almost nobody gets paid for that only the people that are working to like, we have a big grant project and we have a couple of people who get paid to do that. Otherwise, we’re all volunteer. Ari Wil 51:00 So then what is the grant money going toward? Ellysheva Z. 51:03 money is going towards our supporting transitions project. We are we’ve done supporting transitions for a while. And it’s been working with individuals on the autism spectrum and with developmental disabilities. And at first it was to create like museum programming for them. But really one of the biggest issues that that community is facing is getting jobs. And so screen transitions is a program that is now working to create and like support, paid internships within the cultural accessibility world for individuals on the autism spectrum or with developmental disabilities. So they’re getting paid to like, find those internships and you know, train those students and Ari Wil 51:53 know that network. Ellysheva Z. 51:53 Yes. And we are paying the students, individuals so like money through, like, give us money so that we can give somebody else money. Ari Wil 52:04 Wow. Okay, that’s really cool. It’s very it’s really cool. Ellysheva Z. 52:08 Great sporting tradition is a fantastic program and I would love to bring into the tenement Museum, but I don’t know if we’re there yet. Ari Wil 52:16 Who is there though? Like, who would you like who would you give this to. Ellysheva Z. 52:21 I mean, the thing is, I don’t want it like I want it to be not my work. Because there’s so much I’m doing already that I don’t necessarily I’m not exactly sure where I would what what tasks that intern to and having an intern is a lot of work, honestly. Like think of a project for them and I and so I wanted somebody else to bring somebody in to do but it might just have to be me that might be something that I’m gonna Look at it like the second half of the year. I really want to lots of things that I want to do another one of our idea council projects that’s not mine is inclusive hiring. And I think this could be a step in that project. Ari Wil 53:22 Oh,yeah. No, pass it over there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 53:34 I don’t think so either. Unknown Speaker 53:38 Let’s double check. Ari Wil 53:39 Yeah, double check. Take your time. Unknown Speaker 53:46 I think I feel good. I’m Yes. Okay.

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accessthearts · 6 years ago

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Ari Wil 0:01 So today is October 16, Wednesday and I’m sitting in Dunkin Donuts with Taja Cheek. Yeah, Did I pronounce that right? Taja Cheek 0:10 Okay. Um, yeah. Ari Wil 0:15 If you just want to state your name and your occupation. Okay? Taja Cheek 0:21 I’m Taja Cheek. I’m an assistant curator at MOMA PS 1. Ari Wil 0:25 Ok, so I’m just gonna go into it. I saw.. I read an interview with Interview magazine. Graduations on literally killing every thing. Taja Cheek 0:36 Wow, I forgot that that existed Ari Wil 0:39 You so much stuff online actually, I think in your name was exhausted. Congratulations. Taja Cheek 0:47 I thanks, I forgot. I have a very distinctive name so it’s hard to hide. Yeah. Ari Wil 0:53 Yeah, no, I thought it would be but I just typed in Tada. Immediately. Taja Cheek 0:58 Crazy. Yes, really. Ari Wil 1:00 But yeah, in the interview magazine, they’re just there’s the description of your work that said something along the lines of dedicated to call fitting spaces for queer musicians of color. And experimental creators who are too often cast to the periphery. So I was wondering how does your institution enable or inhibit, like this process? Taja Cheek 1:26 That’s a bigggg question. You know, I can only speak for myself and what I do you really ultimately, you know, I think it starts with intentionality, of kind of dating that as my interest in my purpose. That’s what makes it easier to figure out how to make choices about who to include there are millions of artists and I think, You know, knowing that that’s kind of my own personal interest for many reasons, particularly black artists. Just like stating that intentionality, I think, is important for me. And so, you know, it’s not a part of like the institution’s mission or anything like that, per se. But there are other things that are stated in, you know, how we think through each season and how we think through the program as a whole. So we think a lot about place, and how that plays into how artists make work. And so for me, that makes me think about black artists in particular, and how they are placed and rooted here and displayed, and that’s sort of like the most urgent thing for me and we also talks a lot about artist making work in other media, about, you know, the specificity of New York City. It’s all about kind of like circles around black and brown artists for me, especially black artists, especially as one. I don’t know if that answers the question. Ari Wil 3:17 No, no. It actually does. But can I? Taja Cheek 3:23 Yeah. Ari Wil 3:25 So, are you saying that MOMA kind of gives you the opportunity to pick? You know, like to make your own decisions as to how you’re going to be inclusive or which ways? Taja Cheek 3:39 You know, curator is also a creative practice. Museums can often knowingly and unknowingly position themselves as usual bodies, but they’re made up of people and people have interests and perspectives. And that’s what I have so, you know, ultimately, it’s, you know, there’s a small group of us that are making decisions about shown when and, and try to make arguments for why we think it’s important. And so, yeah, that’s my own personality. Okay, discuss it as a group and it’s not like a solo decision by any team, but I have a co worker that I working together, we think through the program as a whole. And she’s going to be here at the PS1 way longer than I have seen beginning of Sunday session. And of course, it goes through like the territorials we met this one too. So in terms of things that have sparked my interest. I feel like you know, the most urgent issues of our time are kind of circling around black and brown bodies, makers. That kind of where my interest lies. Ari Wil 5:00 Have you felt like the community has been receptive to that and like your internal community and the external community? Taja Cheek 5:09 I think in hope so, I think, you know, there’s a difference between, you know, performance inherently deals with bodies and people in the space. And so that tends to have a lot of baggage that comes along with that. And I think, because it is dealing with bodies that a lot of times, especially in institutional settings, those bodies end up being blacker or browner or queereer than they are in other galleries spaces. Because they are like, it is, you know, and in permanent art. And so, you know, it can be seen as, you know, they’re being left over risk, or it’s more fleeting So it’s easier to position artists that are working with your performance in that kind of setting. And that’s kind of like an age old trope that I want people deal with and think about. But yeah I all that to say I feel like especially in New York that is kind of like - not an expectation but it’s like more accepted I think than other art forms like it is more even seen historically about certain types of like, black and brown bodies and what it means to like shuck and jive and all those things, youre expected to be a preformer and preform in a specific way.Whereas other sort of settings its more difficult. We think about you know, when we’re not expecting institution, but so it’s also different but if you look at like museums, collections and how black and brown people are representatived in that that might that might be different than, you know, the artists that have performed their maybe. Ari Wil 7:08 Um, so, as a black and brown person, I just know that when I go into a space that’s led by black and brown people, right, we are just more comfortable. We’re able then to like, break down some of those barriers. Yeah, like where you don’t have to shuck and jive or whatever. Have you ever noticed though, like where in those spaces, someone might still be excluded? Yeah, like Do you ever see that like that was maybe removed one thing but then something else will come out? I’m kind of talking about like intersectionality here. Taja Cheek 7:45 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s a way I mean, there’s so many layers of it, right. It’s like can be dealing with another black person. Another brown person or another queer person, but there’s so many other layers of interacting with an institution. And so many other people that you interact with, you have different ways of expressing themselves of communicating. And, yeah, that can sometimes be a barrier to entry, or there’s an inherent skepticism of the institution as a whole. which is understandable. Yeah, but sometimes people come with that then, you know, you have to accept it for what it is because you understand on one hand and another, you’re also like trying to work with them and trying to make them feel at home. And other way there’s always like an extra layer of work that kind of comes with working with Ari Wil 9:00 So how do you for yourself to find access and inclusion? Taja Cheek 9:05 I’m still trying to figure that out. There’s a lot that I don’t know, a lot that I do know, inherently that I haven’t necessarily unpacked in like an official way and a lot that I don’t know. So, you know, I don’t know if you read about the sort of like the AI plan that all the students in New York are going through now. But basically, there was a long period of research that the city is undergoing, just to kind of take stock of who makes up the institution, the art institutions in the city is going to them and like in a lot of detail. And so after that, after a lot of meetings, and sort of going through the primaries in the data, now there’s kind of like an imparitive for all those institutions to create their own plans. And it’s kind of being left to the institutions to figure out what that looks like to a certain extent. Just because, you know, some people have more money, some people are, like, have very like, you know, neighborhood specific or like cultural, cultural, cultural specificity, that’s like tied into their mission or whatever it may be. every issue is different, essentially. But it’s being linked to funding a lot of places. Institutions can’t get certain kinds of funding if they don’t adhere to this imparitvive and try to change the makeup of their institution. Ari Wil 10:42 Wow. Taja Cheek 10:44 So a lot of people are thinking about that in the city right now. Especially in New York City. Ari Wil 10:49 So is this a conversations you’re having inside of MOMA? Taja Cheek 10:52 Yeah, there is a DEI commity. I’m not really on it. Right now. for a lot of reasons, but there are a lot of people that are not, you know, thinking about it in a very broad level, like, accessibility in terms of like price points. Ari Wil 11:11 Yeah. Taja Cheek 11:12 I mean museum is free for New Yorkers. So there’s, there’s that, but we do charge for performance programs. What does that look like? That’s something that we think about a lot or warm up or whatever. And, like, world specificity, like who like Who’s coming? What is their experience, like when they’re here? So, you know, a lot of like, ADA complaincy stuff we’re thinking about. MOMA has a really robust access department. Ari Wil 11:41 Yeah. Taja Cheek 11:42 And they have touched tours and all these things. And we don’t really have that, really, we don’t have an education program. We don’t have public programming really, that gets kind of folded into what we do. But we’re we’re really focusing on performance. So idle conversations are happening now. They’ve been happening, but now that we have a new director, I imagine that those coversations will happen even more. So yeah, I mean, not a lot of layers to pursue in your public institutions. Ari Wil 12:16 I’ve always gotten the sense that ps1 was kind of meant for the fringe almost like it’s, it’s like for the for the marginalized. So I’m just kind of finding it pretty ironic that PS 1 is also the one that has no like education programming or is lacking in resources. So is that a conversation that’s had it ps1, like, what’s going on with MoMA? they’re playing out? Taja Cheek 12:44 Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, we’re trying to figure out our relationship. It’s always evolving and changing. You know what resources we take from MOMA is a slow process and figuring out how that works. So we often work with loans education department, and we’re trying to figure out they just did a presentation months ago about a lot of their, like accessibility initiatives. So a lot of us, myself included, didn’t even know what was happening and click right there. Yeah. So now we know and now we know who to contact, all those things. So it’s a really slow process. But something that’s happening. And there’s a lot that will make and probably learned from us in terms of like, how we program things and our timelines, and like, you know, the diversity of our performance program, especially Sunday sessions. But, you know, we pretty much exclusively work with women and gender non conforming artists, not because it’s like a token thing and the thats not even some thing that we just barely call out. But it’s just who were interested in and who are prioritizing. Yeah. So anyway, all those things are things that most probably go back and forth. Ari Wil 14:03 So, um, what practices of accessibility inclusion can or do you incorporate into your design into your curation? Like what you’re thinking when you enter into a project. Taja Cheek 14:17 To be honest, the building isn’t super accessible as it is now. I mean, we have ramps to get into the, into the dome. That’s one thing we need to do and that is important to us that people can get into the physical building in terms of equity. We try to keep our price points successful. And we also embrace was it was artists about, you know, guest lists. Oftentimes, artists will have their own sort of like personal calls in their publicising the event like if you need, you know, if you’re unable to pay, like, let me know and our guest list are humongous, as a way of like circumventing certain impartives that we have as a institution just like you have to charge, right? and ///we obviously want to meet our revenue goals, but we also don’t want to be inaccessible to the communities that we’re inviting in to preform work./// Again, just sort of like, just in terms of our priorities, we’re kind of looking to bring in not only artists, but their entire community. And the communities that we’re usually most interested in are women of color, and queer communities. We prioritize those. Those are the main things. I mean, I think we want to be more accessible and more trying to learn how to do that trying to figure out what it cost and the experts are and how to do that takes time. I just had a conversation today about like, how do we get information on our website more easy to access for people who do have specific needs as they need interpreters and stuff like that. And that’s something that’s on you know, our shared website. We have a we share our website it’s more like where to find information where its placed how that happens. But that’s a lot of conversations that have to happen just to change something on the website. So to get to the point where there’s like a budget for other things, other thing we’re working towards but yeah we’re not totally there yet. Ari Wil 16:31 You just mentioned something I hadn’t thought of before which is guest list. Taja Cheek 16:34 Yeah. Ari Wil 16:36 When I usually think about guest list. I think they’re an exclusive thing. Like, you know, you have your special friends on the guests like that. I felt like finding that kind of has perpetuated for me the idea of exclusivity and like, I’m sure the bros on the guest list could probably pay but like, other people aren’t. Yeah, how do you guys like mitigate that weirdness with guest list?Because it seems like you’re doing like a proactive thing. But yeah, that’s it. Still got weird, you know, like for an entourage pulled up? Taja Cheek 17:03 It can. I mean, I feel like for the most part people are mastering that are artists. So they’re really kind of like prioritizing people in their community who they want to come. Ari Wil 17:13 Okay. Taja Cheek 17:13 Or, you know, we had a sex workers festival resistance a couple of seasons ago. And we’re working with a partner in Scotland called Erica, you know, you were kind of working with them to figure out how to message sex workers that aren’t able to pay but want to come like, how can come to the door. And, you know, basically, we just had language that was like, you identify the sex worker then you can come free. Ari Wil 17:39 Very cool. Taja Cheek 17:40 So things like that. I think we’re very conscious of like, who we’re inviting in and trying to make sure the jars do very centrally as possible. But like, we have to charge just as an institution non profit. Yeah, also. Yeah. So but we’re also like, you know, we’re creating New Yorkers, even if were doing something in the domes we also will often happenings in the building that are free with museum admissions. So, we try to work around it. Ari Wil 18:12 Okay. And then what are the incentives to being accessible? Taja Cheek 18:19 I mean, I, I feel like it just supports our whole mission. Really my whole mission. Like I feel like I’m sure my co workers felt like I feel like that’s the whole point of being a public institution. Like, there is no point anything I’m doing. If its not inclusive but more so than diverse, which, you know, our programming. I hadn’t actually thought about it this way, but it might not be like diverse. Diversity is often a code word for like black. And it may not be diverse. It’s mostly women and queer people so in that way, it’s not necessarily diverse its just like critical and intentional. Yeah I dont know. Ari Wil 19:11 I was gonna ask this later, but maybe. Okay, um, yeah, so you just said that your spaces are primarily like, women queer. Taja Cheek 19:29 Or we try to at least like I’m not gonna, like, make myself seem like we’re doing more work than we are. We’re trying Yeah, yeah. Ari Wil 19:37 But also another thing that’s been kind of coming up in my research is this idea of implicit bias. So we just tend to hire the people that look like us. Yeah, um. Do you feel like maybe that’s a part of what’s having the space become like kind of intentionally more woman? Ideas surounding implicit bias is basically the question. Go. Taja Cheek 20:01 Yeah, totally. Um, I, I, in my mind, I’m like trying to work against like, the bias of working in a predomientaly white institution, like, people always think of culturally specific institutions as being like, the like, the Studio Museum or like el Barrio. But like, you know, MoMA is a culturally specific institution its a white institution. And so it’s like mostly working agianst THAT I feel like is what im trying to do. is what I’m trying to do and I feel like the experiences of black Americans, slave descendants is something that is the most directed. And so, that also happens to be who I am. Yeah, but I also think there’s an urgancey there. Mostly like trying to fight against like the implicit bias of the institution, more so than it is me, at least in my imagining, I mean, maybe there’s something to me being like, Oh, you look like, but you know, it’s more, it’s more about that like fighting against the with the bias of the institution and less like you look like me heres the job. Ari Wil 21:21 Um, I do have to say, I’m really glad that you simply just called out the Studio Museum and El Barrio, even though it’s gonna be on the recording, my professor keeps forcing, like trying to push me to go to like, those two specific institutions and like, El Taller, yeah, and another one, which is cool, great. I really do want to go study them. She was almost telling me like not to come and do this interview, because I had these resources. But I’m just like, I go to the MOMA. You more than I’ve ever been to the student museum. Yeah. So I’m curious about how this works. I’m just really glad that you said that Taja Cheek 21:53 It just like operates very differently in those institutions, like there’s a lot like I’ve never worked there but like I feel like most people I’ve encountered in the art world have gone through one of those. And if there are, you know, black or brown or Latnix. And yeah, there are certain assumptions that don’t have to be made. Right. So like you think about diversity very differently. You know? Ari Wil 22:19 Yeah. Taja Cheek 22:19 Like it’s maybe scrutinized more when studio has a white curator. You know, it doesn’t really happen here. Ari Wil 22:30 Do you see that it’s like a, an advantage or disadvantage. Taja Cheek 22:38 Advantage in what sense? I guess like there is.. there’s, you know, it’s just a very different experience than working around other black people in the world which is not an experience that very often. Probably count on one hand how many times thats happened. It does different things to the stuff you’re making. I’ll say like, you know? When white institutions exclusion, it try to cover topics that are sort of outside of their, like cultural specificity, let’s say, like there’s just like certain things that happens to those projects where they’re always looked at differently. It would be interesting to see like, how they’re funded, like, when they’re funded like,how their talks about like, what sort of context that looks like and ends up being like what that container is. And story Yeah, so it’s sometimes it can be difficult even when you’re just working with black people but it’s still within a White institution. Ari Wil 23:49 Yeah. That makes sense. This one is going to be a little different but are there any specific tools you use to gauge audience needs? Taja Cheek 24:05 Thats a great question. I think a lot of things happen at PS 1 pretty organically. It’s like a weird institution because it’s attached to this huge thing, MoMA and but it’s also definitely still has to spirit of being this scrappy artist space from the 70s it’s constantly kind of like yo yoing between those two. Wait I just totally forgot the question. Ari Wil 24:40 Well, how do you gauge audience? Taja Cheek 24:41 Oh, yeah. So I think you know, Sunday sessions when I know of it’s usually in a very humble in the beginning and it kept growing and growing and production value has increasingly become more intentional on a lot of things happen though we haven’t been able to engage that very much. I think we barely kind of know where audiences we know that they are artists and New York centric, like mostly fairly educated, like we know some small things about that audience but we’re for the first time doing a email survey which we’ve never done before it was really really important for us to figure out like who we’re serving and who where it was like it was coming because we don’t actually really know like we have some guesses. Ari Wil 25:27 Yeah, yeah. And so no your gusses just from like, being there and experiencing kind of Taja Cheek 25:33 Being there and experiencing. You know, there have been some PS1 surveys I believe. So we kind of know about our audience versus MOMA audience but we don’t know specifically about Sunday Sessions. Ari Wil 25:47 Okay, (inaudible.) I think it might have been in the same Interview magazine interview, I’m not sure. But there’s a quote where it says you are a “self described curious, outsider ally, facilitators practitioner.” Is there anything else you would add to that resume identities thing? Taja Cheek 26:27 Oh, man. I don’t know. I feel like ultimately I feel like I’m sort of in the process of trying to take things away. Ari Wil 26:37 Oh! Taja Cheek 26:38 Rather than adding. I feel like a lot of times - Ari Wil 26:41 Why take away? Taja Cheek 26:42 Well, I feel like artists especially are like I can only say this because I also like to work but I feel like a lot of arts administrators probably feel this way but artists are often looked at like a separate class of humans. and like they have special needs and special things and totally they interact with the World in this way. And I think it’s true if I didn’t believe in an artist, I wouldn’t be doing what I do ultimatley. But I also think that artists are just people. And that we should really be thinking about them as people and that like everybody has like a creative side to the work that they do. And like, I just saw Martha Wilson talk yesterday, who co founded like, who founded Franklin Furnace, and she was talking about being an artist and a curator. And she was thinking through that, and just kind of saying that at some point, you figured out that being an Art Administrator is a form of creative practice. And yeah, I feel like a burden and ultimately unhelpful sometimes to think of artist as being i separate process only a few people that are like good enough to do a certain thing like ultimately, like we all are just attracted to certain things and there are certain people that we That are given opportunities to perform in certain places or exhibit places but that doesn’t mean that like the person who’s making music on the street corner as like any less of an artist, I think the more that we can just like making these designations and people being artists or tutor this or that it’s like, makes it it just makes it more Heirarchal. Ari Wil 28:25 Do you identify as an artists though? Taja Cheek 28:28 I guess so. Yeah. Ari Wil 28:29 Ok, cool. Yeah. Um, you also one time said that it’s becoming increasingly more difficult for artists to sustain themselves, spiritually and financially. What do you mean by spiritually? What would you think? Taja Cheek 28:50 I guess now, I don’t exactly know what I was thinking about then. I guess now I would think about time, like time is a resource and leisure is a privilege. And that if you are constantly working and thinking about how you’re going to make ends meet, or like having meetings for your work for artists in general, like you don’t have a lot of time to just like do nothing. I mean, talking to a lot of other working artists, I kind of sympathize with that. Just like time is a limited resource. Ari Wil 29:28 And I want to look at how we can be accessible to artists, you know, and inclusive to artists. How can curators or just like, yeah, the arts institutions help out these artists that are, are separating these ways and like don’t have the time or what support do you need? Taja Cheek 29:52 Yeah, that’s a good question. I think we’re all kind of thinking about that. I’m thinking about that. A lot. It would be with the musicians because they into like an art spaces. Music kind of occupies this really weird space where it’s kind of foreign to the art world, but also like really connected to in a lot of ways. And it’s like hard to tell how, you know, and I’m sort of in this position where I’m thinking a lot about music specifically, and I’m trying to think through what musicians need. It’s sort of unclear how we can support. Yeah, it really depends. I think we have to figure out who our community of artists is first. Right. I think that’s sort of where I am. At least I can’t speak for institution, obviously, but like, you know, Long Island City is changing a lot. And it’s pretty much the biggest, fastest growing residential market I think maybe in the country. It’s a very part of the reason why Amazon has been moving here, like all these things are happening here. And so our you know, Our general community is changing. And so it’s like what does that mean for artists? Where are we serving? Is it mostly artists in New York? Is it young artists, older artists, is it everyone? Is it like, what are our priorities? What are we interested in? Kind of working interested in? And so I think I’m at least in the point where I’m still interrogating that and trying to figure out, like, what we’re doing and who we are on that level, which is constantly evolving. And so I can’t really answer that question. So I figured that out. But like, space and time, I feel like are mostly the things like you have a residency program that my coworker has really been spearheading, where, you know, we have this giant dome, and it’s just sitting around all the time. We can give that to people as resources use, yeah, and work on things that they’re preparing for, even if they are presenting work at the PS1 they can use it as a place to work on other things. When you think about that idea, though, Does that seem achievable? Thank you feel like you can approach your institution as often about using the dome in other ways. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it’s it’s happening. It seems like something that they want to do more. Yeah, it’s funny for music. I feel like we were thinking about I was just talking today during a meeting about rubber tracks. Ari Wil 32:13 Rubber track? Taja Cheek 32:14 Yeah, it was like this is this converse initiative. It sounds really silly because it’s like a corporate entity. But they provided such a crazy, immense resource to musicians when they had a physical building with, I think one or two recording studios, rehersal space. And it was an application based process so you could apply and they’re like, they asked you if you want to work on one song or a part of a song or an album, and you send some samples of your work and like when you’re available and they happened on like, some sort of cycle. They would select people and they’d match you up with engineers, and incredible equipment, the files, no strings attached and you get to shoes I think. Ari Wil 33:02 Wow. Taja Cheek 33:04 I think, you know, thinking about things like that, like, how do you like literally how do you like facilitate the process of making or making, or giving people like at a space level, I hope that our program gives people, the artists that we invite to make work, an opportunity to make new work, and to either like, try a part of their practice try to expand a part of their practice that they don’t usually have a chance to think about or exhibit and or to like go deeper into something that they’re already interested in. But always making new work. Ari Wil 33:37 Yeah, but might you say that’s part of like the spiritual like work that needs to be upheld for artists of having that space? Taja Cheek 33:43 I think I have space and I’m lucky to have and so I think I felt a little bit of an obligation to share it. Its kinds of really where that came from. I, that happens less now. And I’m trying to figure out like, what my relationship to that is because I also felt very draining me and a lot of ways personally. But yeah, I think I just came out of that. And I just knew a lot of people that were like the guitarist, and they need a place for her during the day to be loud in their apartments, like I live between three or four churches. So I don’t really have to worry about noise because there’s no one really there and I have stone walls, like no one really cares what’s happening. Yeah, I’m very lucky in that sense. Ari Wil 33:43 Yeah, speaking of space I do remember and a lot of your interviews the mention of your basemnet that you use. Can I ask you to talk a little bit about that? Like, what promted you to do that? Taja Cheek 33:43 Yeah. Ari Wil 34:33 So, like, what have you seen, like immediate benefits to like providing that space to people are like, Yeah, what kind of rewards came from that? Taja Cheek 34:44 I don’t know, a sense of community. I think more than anything, especially with extreme improvisers, and sort of like people making more experimental music. It really became an important part. Though, I think the landscape in New York for like really niche kinds of music. That’s a double edged sword too, because I sort of realized, like, as I was opening my home to other people that, you know, MY sense of like, who I wanted to use the space was necessarily open to this coming necessarily. Like the sort of like build it and they will come mentality is like, not a thing. Like, you have to really be intentional about that. And so I was like, oh, there are a lot of like, white guys using the basement Like, what does that mean? Like, how does that work? You know, so that kind of way slow down too. That was another part of it too. It’s also because of like that particular scene, there are not tons of black and brown people but there were times when like, I don’t know sometimes we would list things on the internet, which is kind of crazy that we did that. That was kind of like before a lot of, you know, the sort of like the DIY warehouse tragedies happened .. so once that happened, we started like cracking down on how we were publicized. So before that we’re kind of just like Loosey Goosey about everything. And so I remember once we have this show, and I met this like, black woman, and they were kind of like, sitting in the basement and I was like “whhhhat are you doing here, like you’re here!” and I went to talk to them. They’re like, “Oh, yeah, I just saw it on the websites. I just came in. Like, I didn’t know that there are like other black people doing things like this”. It’s like moments like that would happen. And that would make it really worth it to me. I’m not I’m under no illusion that it was like the most diverse space. And that’s why the reason why it kind of slowed down Ari Wil 36:40 Thats a part of creating accessible spaces anyone’s gonna come in. Yeah. That’s accessible and inclusive. Yes, that is right. Right. Okay. Sick. Thank you so much. Yeah, yes. Okay.

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Ari Wil 0:00 Okay. So first question what are your preferred pronouns. And is there anything I can do to make this easier for you. Fala 0:13 Oh, ok. she her, no and I guess we can start a conversation, okay? Ari Wil 0:19 Sweet. Okay, Um, what description would you give of your general like work experience Fala 0:28 Of my work experience in gallerys? Ari Wil 0:30 Yeah, in arts administration particularly. Fala 0:35 I’ve been like, you know, I’ve done things with auction house, like auction basically in a gallery in Dubai. And as an administrator the closest thing I’ve done is worked as a curatorial assistant at Washington, Great gallery, here in New York. Ari Wil 0:55 Um, and, how much do you feel like these institutions have incorporated ideas of access and inclusion. Fala 1:08 Honestly, not as much as they should. Ari Wil 1:10 Mm hmm. Fala 1:11 I think, yeah, I think the most that they’ve done in terms of like accessibility. right? is, you know, they have a ramp to get to the gallery galleries that are working right now, for example, they have, what is that text thing? Is it called alternative? Ari Wil 1:35 Yeah, alt text. Fala 1:37 Exactly. So they’re starting to implement that now, it hasn’t been implemented. And with with Latchkey Gallery. I feel like it’s still in the process of becoming, you know, a more accessible company, I guess. Unknown Speaker 2:02 And I do want you to be very candid because we both know how latchkey Gallery runs and stuff, but also what motivates you to be part of the arts world? Like why are you entering into arts administration. Fala 2:20 Great question. I don’t know there’s something about it that makes life better. And I think the way I take it is art is very political. So, it’s a great way to deliver a message in a way that many people can understand, no matter where you’re from. That’s the reason why I joined. Ari Wil 2:51 Do you feel like because museums are kind of inherently political that it puts like an increased responsibility on them to be socially aware or just maybe or what are your ideas surrounding that? Fala 3:05 I think that they should be. Unknown Speaker 3:06 Yeah? Fala 3:07 I think they should be aware. I am in my experience from what I’ve been studying in my program, I dont think they have been. I think they cater to a certain type of person, you know? and if you just look at the board, like just look up for the museum, they cater to specific types of people but I think they have a responsibility, you know as an institution that’s supposed to preserve works for future generations,to be more responsible about society that they’re in. Ari Wil 3:45 you just kind of mentioned, like the board and maybe like the internal functions of like museums and galleries, Um, do you feel like the target audience for the internal piece of a museum is different from the target audience, when they’re considering like the general like the patrons and stuff. Does that question make sense? Fala 4:12 So the viewers and the people who walk in to view the artwork, versus people who donate the work? Ari Wil 4:16 well yeah like first of the people who work inside of the museum, and then versus the people like the patrons and the external factors like do you feel like galleries are targeting the same people like do you think the people who work in the museum represent those who are coming in. Fala 4:36 Ah, I don’t think they represent those who are coming in. Ari Wil 4:41 Mm hmm. Fala 4:43 But I think galleries and museums are very different. You know? we always have this image of being a nonprofit space. So and, you know, your insincit is to think oh a nonprofit space like oh that’s a good thing they’re doing good right? But I think that museums do a lot more to seculde people. Because a gallery, for instance, has a goal, a you know, a goal of profitability, like that’s their company at the end of the day, and they find clients for the artists that they represent. And they really take care of the artists that they represent I mean look at LKG. Going to the studio, you know, giving, giving advice and helping their artists and all of that. With the museum is just preservation of work, museums need to get funding. So, they have this mentality that’s like extremely money driven. So they’re targeting people of like the 1%. So that’s, yeah that’s just my opinion, I don’t know that’s the difference that I’ve been seeing. Ari Wil 5:58 Know that’s really interesting I haven’t heard something like that. So, thank you. That was really good. Um, and then. Okay. Um, yeah, no I mean no but no but that was also like very important you know, because yeah like what are some obstacles that you see, like, to accessibility and inclusion then, in gallerys. Fala 6:30 I have a big one, that I’m guilty of actually. So if I can sure that one with you. Ari Wil 6:35 Yes. Please. Fala 6:38 When I went to the Whitney Biennial. I saw an artwork by an artist called, I might be butchering her name Christine funkin, I’ll send you the link. And she is deaf. Her artwork is about Deaf culture and their specific series called Deaf rage. And it just shows you how people don’t consider Deaf culture in anything. And specifically, people in administration in the art world. So, this is something that when I saw this artwork I was like oh my god I didn’t even cross my mind to even be considerate to Deaf culture right. So, I think that we have a long way to go.I think that, you know, back to the point about why I got into art. This is something that I learned from her work. So it starts the conversation and then allow for things to progress and get better. Ari Wil 7:54 Why do you think that that’s culture just isn’t considered like what’s the main thing that’s preventing people from even touching it. Fala 8:05 So if I’m going to look at it from the perspective of the museums I think its resources. So what they’re going to do is they’re going to focus their resources on A. getting money so that they can preserve the art work. Thats the priority for them. right? So that’s, let’s say that what 60 % of their focus. Okay. And then you have, let’s say 20% is their focus is the general public. For example, I’m just putting numbers, like yeah, they’re not accurate. And then there’s a small percentage of care towards accessibility because it’s just starting now. You know? it’s like, it’s like being inclusive.This is something that they’re realizing they’re responsible for now. It was never something that they have to do. And don’t forget, at the end of the day as much as you like to think that it’s not, it’s worth it. Or it’s worth it. Can you Ari Wil 9:16 Can you talk a little bit more about that particular demographic, like, Who are you talking about when you say like, it’s the elite, or it’s a small group. Fala 9:27 The 1 %. Ari Wil 9:27 yeah so like are they typically white rich off Fala 9:31 White, rich, mostley male, majority are male. You know, it’s like people who live in Connecticut. Ari Wil 9:42 Aha.And so, whose perspective, do you feel is missing. Fala 9:51 Well, now you know that 99% for example, you know, people who have. I don’t know, you know, demanding jobs and like work like work their fucking ass off. And you know, like me being… even gallery dont make it welcoming for people in general so if you’re feeling threatned in your life in general, you’re not going to enter in to another space thats going to make you feel threatned.Right. Ari Wil 10:22 Oh no good. Fala 10:25 So gallery spaces. Look at the amount of security,very, you know sensitive issues. Ari Wil 10:39 Yeah, Fala 10:41 if you’re if you’re if you’re just like day by day walking in your normal life. Ari Wil 10:49 Oh wow. Yeah, things like that. That put a barrier, and like, It’s like they’re not saying it directly but it’s in their actions. Right Fala 11:08 For example, you know, I don’t know I’m talking like specifically about there was an exhibition of Syrian Art at a Museum. Look at, look at Islamic art for example. A lot of Arab artists, which is what my thesis is about a lot of Arab artists don’t categorize themselves under the umbrella of Islamic art. But museums put them under that umbrella. And they’re just now starting to realize, realize they’re starting to recognize these things. You know, they’re starting to listen to people who aren’t white males. They’re starting to listen to people to change their direction and I guess their mission. And I’m hoping it gets somewhere basically it’s just,you have a long way to go. Ari Wil 12:10 Can you describe. Can you describe your thesis to me a little bit. Fala 12:16 Sure thing. Its on the westernization of the Middle Eastern art scene. Specifically in the UAE, the United Arab Emirates. Okay. And I’m touching upon globalization and how like the East countries of the East, which such as the UAE. You know, it’s like a puppet state basically. And they’re, they’re buying or leasing. For example, or they can use the time as a method to put themselves on the map. It’s like you have to leave a Western institution to put yourself on the map. Every, like, it’s like you have to do things in a Western framework to be recognized. Ari Wil 13:05 Mm hmm. Fala 13:15 Right, that’s another source of the problem. I can talk about colonization all you want. yeah. Yeah, so, Ari Wil 13:20 um, what do you feel like people positioned on the internal side of gallery gallery work can do to like help. Or like, make it a more accountable situation like what can we do to put pressure on Amanda, or could we have done, or is there anything we could have done. Fala 13:42 I think we could have, you know, prepared a document that list everything that we think, or we feel is not acceptable on, for example the website. Let’s start with the website because they don’t have a physical space yet you know yeah so we could have maybe prepared a document. Listing everything that we think should be done for accessibility reasons. And we’ll get back to her, Ari Wil 14:18 And what resources do you feel like we would need or that are lacking. Yeah, Fala 14:29 where, like, Ari Wil 14:30 in order to do in order to implement ideas of accessibility inclusion Fala 14:35 of knowledge. Ari Wil 14:36 Knowledge. Ooh, that’s a really good one. Fala 14:41 Yeah. Oh no. Everyone keeps talking about accessibility. Everyone’s like “ yea, yea! Accessability.” But the truth is, 74% people don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about. You know what I mean? Ari Wil 14:54 Yeah, totally. Fala 14:56 We need people who either are experiencing the art that I just mentioned, Deaf culture. Mm hmm. Like how great was that, you know, now I know, yeah, yeah I want to make an effort. Ari Wil 15:14 Yeah representation is so important. Fala 15:17 Exactly. You know, Ari Wil 15:22 what’s the most accessible or inclusive, or, like, innovative on an audience engagement. You’ve seen or worked with. Fala 15:37 Well, I haven’t seen but I’ve heard that the Brooklyn Museum has an event where basically, where people. I think if people can can’t see go in, and they’re able to touch the work, to feel Ari Wil 16:06 nice, so that’s great. Fala 16:08 Yeah. That’s a really creativeway to do things and like an incredible way to allow people to experience. You know the artwork that you promised your future generations. Right, Ari Wil 16:24 yeah Andyou kind of touched on a little bit earlier. But why do you think it’s important that people are able to touch the art or be able to experience it like, what’s the drive, like, why do we want people to see art or be a part of it, or experience it Fala 16:44 that hard question. Ari Wil 16:46 Yeah. Fala 16:50 It’s about culture. Mostly, okay. It’s about learning about other cultures, but it kills me to say that. Yeah, because museum started as a way to exotify other cultures. So, I think we need to have a conversation about how we change that first, you know, art is fun for everyone.and you know even an art therapy I don’t know much about it but it really help people. Ari Wil 17:25 Yeah, no. Fala 17:30 I can give you words it’s a form of therapy. Yeah, it’s a it’s an education that is understood across many cultures and languages like you don’t have to speak English to undersrand. Ari Wil 17:47 Okay.vAnd my final question is, do you feel included in museum spaces and in gallery work. Fala 17:59 As, I, me myself, or as an Arab woman. Ari Wil 18:02 Fala 18:07 I do. I do feel included. but theres a limit. Yeah, I feel, I mean in the, in the work that I’ve done its been amazing but I’ve heard like horror stories about major galleries here, basically. And the mistreatment of their female interns. I think that I think I’ve been blessed to have female role models in the work that I’ve been doing, like, Amanda LKG for example, and Nicola and Columbia at Washington E Gallery I think it’s great to see women in positions like the director of the gallery or in our head curator, or co founder. I think I’ve been, I’ve been lucky enough to be in safer spaces than most people and so personally, it’s been good but it depends really. Unknown Speaker 19:18 In auction house I feel like it’s mailed off like dominant like the word. It’s a male dominant thing actuion space. about like selling and all of that crap. I don’t know for some reason they just keep hiring males. It’s so different. Like, it’s so different in each sace. Yeah, for profit and nonprofit. then within that you have galleries auction houses. And then you have like a. There’s so much to go through you have art advisory. Each have a culture of their own. Unknown Speaker 19:56 Huh, that’s really good point. That’s a really good point. And so this word kind of has to be done across the board, like on all of these spaces in different ways. Unknown Speaker 20:07 Yeah, you Unknown Speaker 20:10 are you my dude, I’m gonna hit end on this recording.

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October 15 - Core Club

On October 15th I arrived at the Core Club nearly three hours before our scheduled meeting because I wanted to use the Core Clubs wifi. The Core Club from my perspective appeared to be such an exclusive place that I worried the whole trip there they might turn me away because I did not have an appointment upon arrival. However when I got to the front desk of the Core Clubs 55th st location I was welcomed by the pretty young receptionist I always see and sat myself in the front lounge area that was comprised of 3 or 4 chairs and couches with a ceiling to floor mirror. As I did work professional looking men and some women trickled in for their business lunches.

From everyones business formal attire I could tell they had money and a mission for the day. Towards the end of my sitting I noticed a group of teenaged girls come in, they were all of color, all of them wore jeans some of them had rips in them. I could tell from the awkward way they sat in the chairs, huddled around one another / sitting on the arm of the chair that they had not previously been to the Core Club before so they potentially had no idea about its formal code of conduct. I inferenced that the 1-3 adults with the group may have been supervisors of whatever meeting the girls were having at the Core Club. I noticed how the the other patrons looked at them when they walked passed in their heeled shoes. It was a meeting between the “urban” city and the “business” city. I noticed how the staff didn’t take their orders as frequently as they check in on the other guest. I also noticed that as the group noticed me they appeared more comfortable to sink into their chairs as I was the only other young person of color in the lounge area working. The young group of misfits in the area left after about 20 minutes and I was left to continue punching out work. Amanda came with in that hour, about an hour early. Amanda and I sat in silence for the first part of the hour because she said she wanted me to be able to work until our agreed upon meet time. Once Fala arrived, we got to work. Amanda needed us to look at the mass email sent out by another arts gallery about a major art fair. The art gallery that sent it out was Frienze, a gallery of slightly more credibility than Latchkey Gallery. Amanda wanted us to use that as a template to format Latchkey Gallery's Untitled and Meca fair exhibition announcements for their mass email list. Amanda also needed me to update Patrick Alttronce ( one of our topic preforming artist ) fact sheets with a newer press release update that included some of his most recent works.

During this workshop time Amanda met with an Ugandan artsit. She asked me and Fala if we wanted to eat our lunch with them but me and Fala politely declined saying that it would be more time effective for us to finish our work. Amanda asked twice more if we wanted to join them and said that meeting and chatting with the artist was “the fun part!”. The rest of our meeting she complained about artist being like children and about her role as mama to a bunch of young people she admired. Once the artist arrived, her and Amanda grabbed a table but first the artist made it very clear that she could not stay for lunch too long as she had to pack for her flight later that same day. However once Amanda and the artist reemerged it had been over and hour and the artist was now frantic about missing her flight back to Uganda. Amanda was pretty dismissive of the artist concerns but to ease her stress and assure her she would be on time Amanda tasked me with walking the artist to the train. During our walk to the 57th st F train we small talked about her trip to New York. She said she had been to New York twice before on similar business trips because New York is where most of the collectors, dealers and galleries are.

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Flyer for the ConArtsit Collective show of Black Bowery on Instagram. The second photo is an example of one of the main pieces, banners talking back to current anti immigration politics. Though they were challenging to view or read ( they were text heavy ) from a standing level, probably not viewable to most.

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The projection sign reads : Social Black Bowery. In this photo you can see an example of the exhibited banner pieces that were hung unreadably high.

ConArtist Collective October 4th

As a part of a site visit I went to the small gallery ConArtist collective.

I found out about the gallery from a guy I knew as a musician and friend who worked at the gallery. The event came up when I was hanging out with his larger group of friends, one of which was opening for the headliner. The men who I hung out with in this Brooklyn apartment were predominantly artist, all black and all male. One of the men who worked for ConArtist Collective, Amanda, prefaced his job as being “weird” and potentially real conartist because he couldn’t make sense of how the two older white men were running their business.

ConArtist Collective was located on Broome st. In an area I knew as China town. I arrived for the show closer to 9pm. The gallery gave me a similar vibe as some of the best by bars. As I approached the doors of the gallery I noticed a line forming in front of what looked like a bouncer. I approached the line but the bouncer waved me up and assured me there was no line or cover charge. The people out front were young and predominantly white and dressed like young people who could afford to hang out in LES. The building looked like a very typical LES gallery space with its all glass window front and large white walls that constructed the one room that acted as the exhibition and performance space. There was a ramp in the front of the building and a spacious entry way. The lighting was dim and the actual art would have benefited from some back lighting. The art pieces were mostly not farmed and without plaquetas of artist name or price of the piece. There were also large banner pieces that hang from the walls that were hard to view because of how tall the ceiling was.

For the first week of October the contemporary art gallery would be hosting an event that had black artist as the producers of the pieces and shows. With it being a black event in mind, I would say that large percentage of the patrons were POC however it still felt weird to have so many artsy white young people running about the exhibition taking in a culture and space without actually engaging with it. It seemed like no one was really engaging with the art actually most people spoke in hushed whispers to themselves or took selfies. Some seemed to dance to the music or pause very briefly at the art but socializing was the predominant focus it seemed. However socializing between the racial groups just was not happening at all.

There seemed to be a distinct separation of coloured and non coloured people interactions. The white people were mainly by then entrance and outside of the space. That art did not seem to be the focus of any one in the space but socialising was. It felt empowering to be in a black artsy social space but also very manufactured because none of the actors in the space seemed to really be vibing together. Not to be a bitch but the actual quality of the art when considering technical skill and quality of materials was not very high. It also seemed like the space was not thoughtfully put together because not all of the pieces, such as the large banners hanging from the ceilings with powerful pieces regarding deportation were easily viewable to the audience especially audience members with visual or standing impartiemnts. The art also was not well lit which drew me to conclude that the art was not the primary reason for the gaterhing, One of my friends, Quinton preformed, another friend Amanda DJ’d and a new friend I made felt sporadically inspired to get up and spit a verse during the open mic but mumbled on his words in the mic and slid off stage.It seemed that a handful of the audience members took advantage of the open mic and got up to free style with the band. A large portion of the white audience members stepped outside to smoke and other moved into various spaces. The crowd seemed interested in what the performers were presenting and were attentive as there was not too much else drawing attention to the space but I interpreted the audiences lack of movement, dancing or clapping as a lack of engagement.

I found myself in a room in the back of the stage talking with my friends and the artist who preformed (all POC). During this chit chat I noticed a white man and white woman enter the small room sometime after us and begin in a dialouge. The two people did not acknowledge our presence in the space we didn’t acknowledge theirs outside of side glances. The one encounter we had was the white man asking to photograph our little group in the small dark graffitied room on his nice camera. He took the photo. He also asked if we had a cigarette, we only had weed.

Later that night as the night winded down I stepped outside and began to navigate myself back to the train and home. A couple of steps in a guy I had met earlier stopped me to ask where I was going and if he could join. We walked to the closest deli and grabbed deli sandwiches. We talked a little bit about the gallery space. He was working their a long with one of our mutual friends although he did not outwardly express an interest in creating the arts himself. He told me that ConArtist Collective has always been and is always weird, particularly the interaction and energies amongst groups of people. I pressed him to explain more about the dynamic but he only shared that the interaction between white and black people at ConArtist had always seemed strained. He explained it like two seperate worlds coexisting at the same time. I asked if he meant kind of like the train? “YEAH” he said “ kind of like the train”.

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Vincent CyChen setting up his sculptures for SunSet Dove Motel at Satellite Art Fair. Vincent is an MFA student at NYU who discussed feeling left in the dark about arts administration practices. Vincent identifies as Taiwanese and queer.

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More thoughts and notes about Instillation Day

Satellite Art Fair : October 2nd I had agreed to help Fala with the art show over 2 weeks ago after one of our internship workshop days. In the time sense then she had placed me, her, suzy and another potential volunteer in a group chat were she confirmed location and schedule.

The Satellite Art Show was held in the ware house space of a Pfizer building on Flushing avenue, roughly a 20 minute J train ride from my home. Fala and her classmate, Suzy, had registered as curators for a booth in the art show space with two artist, Vincent and Arpt. I called Fala when I was outside of the location she sent me. I briefly met Suzy who was on her way to do a store run for batteries and beers. We entered into a large white building with wide hallways and mildew in the air into a very large black box space with exposed pipes and low lighting. Inside of this very large room was sections of people at work designing and constructing different spaces that were roughly 6 ft x 6ft, the spaces lined the sides of the room and spilled in the very centre creating a rough oval shape with a line in the middle.

When I had reached our specific section, close to the back right corner, it was with a Samsung TV remote in hand as Fala had called me frantic because she had forgotten the clicker to the display screen and asked me to find a compatible remote. I got the sense that the need for the remote was pressing from Fala’s many check ins in the 45 minute span of her contacting me and my arrival at the show and because of her immense gratitude at the successful completion of the task.

Our section was constructed from white CV pipes that formed a large box, it was made by Vincent one of our artist a day earlier. My first task on location was to help saw out an entrance on the floor from the CV pipes so that people could more easily access the space. Then we began to un pack the sculpture pieces. In the centre of the booth sat a display table roughly 3 ft tall, on it Arpit very thoughtfully placed patches of black sand and sculpture pieces that varied in size and colour but were typically not larger than the size of your hand and predominately off white with the exception of one sculpture that layed vertically, curvy and pink. With Arpits pieces there was no opportunity to assist in the placement of them because the placement was very meticulous and dependent on the display screen that the sculptures were placed on top of. The screen was the one I had bought the remote for and on it showed a close up of a wave in motion, a cluster of moving sea creatures made from Arpits hand and a kaleidoscope circle that stayed in place. There was also a sound component where you could hear Arpits talking about water, nature and feminine energy. However with Vincent’s work I was able to help in the unpacking of the sculptures and their placement in the space. Vincents had 6 pieces on display in our tent of varying sizes, the largest being a tree form around 8 ft tall. With these we arranged the pieces in the space until there was a unanimous decision made amongst the 5 of us regarding the placement. We considered things like spacing in the tent when you walked around the room, the balance the objects created, or did not create. We also consider things like lines and shadows and color when placing the objects, this was also true for the lighting. For the lighting I held 4 or five coloured filtered over light fixtures while another consensus was reached about which once worked best to create a sunset background effect that Vincent’s work had usually utilised with in a previous gallery space. Actually the lighting decision had been made before Vincent had returned from a break and he returned and immediately changed it to align with the previous showing of the art where the centre yellow light was above the tree and not at the midway point as the group had previously decided.

During this arrangement period I was able to share and collect some background information. For instance Fala and Suzy told me that the admissions price for booths was relatively inexpensive being at around a $700 flat fee that included cleaning. The galleriest team was responsible for purchasing the materials and construction for the booth space but having such a relatively low admissions fee was apparently the elimination of a major barrier for gallerists to exhibit their work. We hypothesised that the venue may be subsidising the cost with the pressure/price to buy alcohol from the bar meaning the drinks were super expensive and it was sketchy to have any alternative alcohol in the establishment. There is also the admissions cost for patrons of $10 and donations.

Vincent and me had a discussion around this same time about both of our current academic paths. He was in the process of completing his MFA at NYU and I was on track to work in the art administration sector. He lamented that he had always been bothered that he was not made to take arts administrant classes and felt he had been kept purposely in the dark about the happenings of the business side of art so that the galleriest and audience gain financially because of his ignorance of its happenings. He said that this was a sentiment that many artist share. I told him that me and Fala were talking about the idea of consignment agreements, how much information the gallerist share and this idea that they’re not always fair.

After these talks and arranging the work was done we went on to put a kind of white photo tarp as a roof / third wall in our white box filled with art. The process of putting the top tarp on included lots of up and down on ladders, team work to expand it across the top of the space and fast needle work from Suzy and I to secure the the sides of the tops to the top of the canvas the lined the CV pipes. Once it was up - Boom we had a completed booth.

In the right corner was an exhibit that utilised the exposed pipes in the space to dance tarp from were they pinned their images and pinned some to the right outside wall of our display. They also has some art on an easel mixed with other objects. The most primary color connecting the exhibit was a neon pink coupled with other other oranges and greens. The exhibit to the left of us was put up by a Chinese artist and his family. The walls had bricks painted on them and foam bricks to add to the effect and felt like the inside of a crumbling building in Brooklyn, his pieces were much larger paintings of workers in urban backgrounds. Reflecting on it the style of painting was actually very similar to Mao propaganda art. In front of our exhibit was a little white tent / house with a video projection on the outside and other whimsical video / imagery on the inside.

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accessthearts · 6 years ago

Audio

Ari Wil 0:01 So today is October 16, Wednesday and I'm sitting in Dunkin Donuts with Taja Cheek. Yeah, Did I pronounce that right?

Taja Cheek 0:10 Okay. Yeah.

Ari Wil 0:15 If you just want to state your name and your occupation. Okay?

Taja Cheek 0:21 I'm Taja Cheek. I'm an assistant curator at MOMA PS 1.

Ari Wil 0:25 Ok, so I'm just gonna go into it. I saw.. I read an interview with Interview magazine. Graduations on literally killing every thing.

Taja Cheek 0:36 Wow, I forgot that that existed

Ari Wil 0:39 You so much stuff online actually, I think in your name was exhausted. Congratulations.

Taja Cheek 0:47 I thanks, I forgot. I have a very distinctive name so it's hard to hide. Yeah.

Ari Wil 0:53 Yeah, no, I thought it would be but I just typed in Tada. Immediately.

Taja Cheek 0:58 Crazy. Yes, really.

Ari Wil 1:00 But yeah, in the interview magazine, they're just there's the description of your work that said something along the lines of dedicated to call fitting spaces for queer musicians of color. And experimental creators who are too often cast to the periphery. So I was wondering how does your institution enable or inhibit, like this process?

Taja Cheek 1:26 That's a bigggg question. You know, I can only speak for myself and what I do you really ultimately, you know, I think it starts with intentionality, of kind of dating that as my interest in my purpose. That's what makes it easier to figure out how to make choices about who to include there are millions of artists and I think, You know, knowing that that's kind of my own personal interest for many reasons, particularly black artists. Just like stating that intentionality, I think, is important for me. And so, you know, it's not a part of like the institution's mission or anything like that, per se. But there are other things that are stated in, you know, how we think through each season and how we think through the program as a whole. So we think a lot about place, and how that plays into how artists make work. And so for me, that makes me think about black artists in particular, and how they are placed and rooted here and displayed, and that's sort of like the most urgent thing for me and we also talks a lot about artist making work in other media, about, you know, the specificity of New York City. It's all about kind of like circles around black and brown artists for me, especially black artists, especially as one. I don't know if that answers the question.

Ari Wil 3:17 No, no. It actually does. But can I?

Taja Cheek 3:23 Yeah.

Ari Wil 3:25 So, are you saying that MOMA kind of gives you the opportunity to pick? You know, like to make your own decisions as to how you're going to be inclusive or which ways?

Taja Cheek 3:39 You know, curator is also a creative practice. Museums can often knowingly and unknowingly position themselves as usual bodies, but they're made up of people and people have interests and perspectives. And that's what I have so, you know, ultimately, it's, you know, there's a small group of us that are making decisions about shown when and, and try to make arguments for why we think it's important. And so, yeah, that's my own personality. Okay, discuss it as a group and it's not like a solo decision by any team, but I have a co worker that I working together, we think through the program as a whole. And she's going to be here at the PS1 way longer than I have seen beginning of Sunday session. And of course, it goes through like the territorials we met this one too. So in terms of things that have sparked my interest. I feel like you know, the most urgent issues of our time are kind of circling around black and brown bodies, makers. That kind of where my interest lies.

Ari Wil 5:00 Have you felt like the community has been receptive to that and like your internal community and the external community?

Taja Cheek 5:09 I think in hope so, I think, you know, there's a difference between, you know, performance inherently deals with bodies and people in the space. And so that tends to have a lot of baggage that comes along with that. And I think, because it is dealing with bodies that a lot of times, especially in institutional settings, those bodies end up being blacker or browner or queereer than they are in other galleries spaces. Because they are like, it is, you know, and in permanent art. And so, you know, it can be seen as, you know, they're being left over risk, or it's more fleeting So it's easier to position artists that are working with your performance in that kind of setting. And that's kind of like an age old trope that I want people deal with and think about. But yeah I all that to say I feel like especially in New York that is kind of like - not an expectation but it's like more accepted I think than other art forms like it is more even seen historically about certain types of like, black and brown bodies and what it means to like shuck and jive and all those things, youre expected to be a preformer and preform in a specific way.Whereas other sort of settings its more difficult. We think about you know, when we're not expecting institution, but so it's also different but if you look at like museums, collections and how black and brown people are representatived in that that might that might be different than, you know, the artists that have performed their maybe.

Ari Wil 7:08 Um, so, as a black and brown person, I just know that when I go into a space that's led by black and brown people, right, we are just more comfortable. We're able then to like, break down some of those barriers. Yeah, like where you don't have to shuck and jive or whatever. Have you ever noticed though, like where in those spaces, someone might still be excluded? Yeah, like Do you ever see that like that was maybe removed one thing but then something else will come out? I'm kind of talking about like intersectionality here.

Taja Cheek 7:45 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a way I mean, there's so many layers of it, right. It's like can be dealing with another black person. Another brown person or another queer person, but there's so many other layers of interacting with an institution. And so many other people that you interact with, you have different ways of expressing themselves of communicating. And, yeah, that can sometimes be a barrier to entry, or there's an inherent skepticism of the institution as a whole. which is understandable. Yeah, but sometimes people come with that then, you know, you have to accept it for what it is because you understand on one hand and another, you're also like trying to work with them and trying to make them feel at home. And other way there's always like an extra layer of work that kind of comes with working with

Ari Wil 9:00 So how do you for yourself to find access and inclusion?

Taja Cheek 9:05 I'm still trying to figure that out. There's a lot that I don't know, a lot that I do know, inherently that I haven't necessarily unpacked in like an official way and a lot that I don't know. So, you know, I don't know if you read about the sort of like the AI plan that all the students in New York are going through now. But basically, there was a long period of research that the city is undergoing, just to kind of take stock of who makes up the institution, the art institutions in the city is going to them and like in a lot of detail. And so after that, after a lot of meetings, and sort of going through the primaries in the data, now there's kind of like an imparitive for all those institutions to create their own plans. And it's kind of being left to the institutions to figure out what that looks like to a certain extent. Just because, you know, some people have more money, some people are, like, have very like, you know, neighborhood specific or like cultural, cultural, cultural specificity, that's like tied into their mission or whatever it may be. every issue is different, essentially. But it's being linked to funding a lot of places. Institutions can't get certain kinds of funding if they don't adhere to this imparitvive and try to change the makeup of their institution.

Ari Wil 10:42 Wow.

Taja Cheek 10:44 So a lot of people are thinking about that in the city right now. Especially in New York City.

Ari Wil 10:49 So is this a conversations you're having inside of MOMA?

Taja Cheek 10:52 Yeah, there is a DEI commity. I'm not really on it. Right now. for a lot of reasons, but there are a lot of people that are not, you know, thinking about it in a very broad level, like, accessibility in terms of like price points.

Ari Wil 11:11 Yeah.

Taja Cheek 11:12 I mean museum is free for New Yorkers. So there's, there's that, but we do charge for performance programs. What does that look like? That's something that we think about a lot or warm up or whatever. And, like, world specificity, like who like Who's coming? What is their experience, like when they're here? So, you know, a lot of like, ADA complaincy stuff we're thinking about. MOMA has a really robust access department.

Ari Wil 11:41 Yeah.

Taja Cheek 11:42 And they have touched tours and all these things. And we don't really have that, really, we don't have an education program. We don't have public programming really, that gets kind of folded into what we do. But we're we're really focusing on performance. So idle conversations are happening now. They've been happening, but now that we have a new director, I imagine that those coversations will happen even more. So yeah, I mean, not a lot of layers to pursue in your public institutions.

Ari Wil 12:16 I've always gotten the sense that ps1 was kind of meant for the fringe almost like it's, it's like for the for the marginalized. So I'm just kind of finding it pretty ironic that PS 1 is also the one that has no like education programming or is lacking in resources. So is that a conversation that's had it ps1, like, what's going on with MoMA? they're playing out?

Taja Cheek 12:44 Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, we're trying to figure out our relationship. It's always evolving and changing. You know what resources we take from MOMA is a slow process and figuring out how that works. So we often work with loans education department, and we're trying to figure out they just did a presentation months ago about a lot of their, like accessibility initiatives. So a lot of us, myself included, didn't even know what was happening and click right there. Yeah. So now we know and now we know who to contact, all those things. So it's a really slow process. But something that's happening. And there's a lot that will make and probably learned from us in terms of like, how we program things and our timelines, and like, you know, the diversity of our performance program, especially Sunday sessions. But, you know, we pretty much exclusively work with women and gender non conforming artists, not because it's like a token thing and the thats not even some thing that we just barely call out. But it's just who were interested in and who are prioritizing. Yeah. So anyway, all those things are things that most probably go back and forth.

Ari Wil 14:03 So, um, what practices of accessibility inclusion can or do you incorporate into your design into your curation? Like what you're thinking when you enter into a project.

Taja Cheek 14:17 To be honest, the building isn't super accessible as it is now. I mean, we have ramps to get into the, into the dome. That's one thing we need to do and that is important to us that people can get into the physical building in terms of equity. We try to keep our price points successful. And we also embrace was it was artists about, you know, guest lists. Oftentimes, artists will have their own sort of like personal calls in their publicising the event like if you need, you know, if you're unable to pay, like, let me know and our guest list are humongous, as a way of like circumventing certain impartives that we have as a institution just like you have to charge, right? and we obviously want to meet our revenue goals, but we also don't want to be inaccessible to the communities that we're inviting in to preform work. Again, just sort of like, just in terms of our priorities, we're kind of looking to bring in not only artists, but their entire community. And the communities that we're usually most interested in are women of color, and queer communities. We prioritize those. Those are the main things. I mean, I think we want to be more accessible and more trying to learn how to do that trying to figure out what it cost and the experts are and how to do that takes time. I just had a conversation today about like, how do we get information on our website more easy to access for people who do have specific needs as they need interpreters and stuff like that. And that's something that's on you know, our shared website. We have a we share our website it's more like where to find information where its placed how that happens. But that's a lot of conversations that have to happen just to change something on the website. So to get to the point where there's like a budget for other things, other thing we're working towards but yeah we're not totally there yet.

Ari Wil 16:31 You just mentioned something I hadn't thought of before which is guest list.

Taja Cheek 16:34 Yeah.

Ari Wil 16:36 When I usually think about guest list. I think they're an exclusive thing. Like, you know, you have your special friends on the guests like that. I felt like finding that kind of has perpetuated for me the idea of exclusivity and like, I'm sure the bros on the guest list could probably pay but like, other people aren't. Yeah, how do you guys like mitigate that weirdness with guest list?Because it seems like you're doing like a proactive thing. But yeah, that's it. Still got weird, you know, like for an entourage pulled up?

Taja Cheek 17:03 It can. I mean, I feel like for the most part people are mastering that are artists. So they're really kind of like prioritizing people in their community who they want to come.

Ari Wil 17:13 Okay.

Taja Cheek 17:13 Or, you know, we had a sex workers festival resistance a couple of seasons ago. And we're working with a partner in Scotland called Erica, you know, you were kind of working with them to figure out how to message sex workers that aren't able to pay but want to come like, how can come to the door. And, you know, basically, we just had language that was like, you identify the sex worker then you can come free.

Ari Wil 17:39 Very cool.

Taja Cheek 17:40 So things like that. I think we're very conscious of like, who we're inviting in and trying to make sure the jars do very centrally as possible. But like, we have to charge just as an institution non profit. Yeah, also. Yeah. So but we're also like, you know, we're creating New Yorkers, even if were doing something in the domes we also will often happenings in the building that are free with museum admissions. So, we try to work around it.

Ari Wil 18:12 Okay. And then what are the incentives to being accessible?

Taja Cheek 18:19 I mean, I, I feel like it just supports our whole mission. Really my whole mission. Like I feel like I'm sure my co workers felt like I feel like that's the whole point of being a public institution. Like, there is no point anything I'm doing. If its not inclusive but more so than diverse, which, you know, our programming. I hadn't actually thought about it this way, but it might not be like diverse. Diversity is often a code word for like black. And it may not be diverse. It's mostly women and queer people so in that way, it's not necessarily diverse its just like critical and intentional. Yeah I dont know.

Ari Wil 19:11 I was gonna ask this later, but maybe. Okay, um, yeah, so you just said that your spaces are primarily like, women queer.

Taja Cheek 19:29 Or we try to at least like I'm not gonna, like, make myself seem like we're doing more work than we are. We're trying Yeah, yeah.

Ari Wil 19:37 But also another thing that's been kind of coming up in my research is this idea of implicit bias. So we just tend to hire the people that look like us. Yeah, um. Do you feel like maybe that's a part of what's having the space become like kind of intentionally more woman? Ideas surounding implicit bias is basically the question. Go.

Taja Cheek 20:01 Yeah, totally. Um, I, I, in my mind, I'm like trying to work against like, the bias of working in a predomientaly white institution, like, people always think of culturally specific institutions as being like, the like, the Studio Museum or like el Barrio. But like, you know, MoMA is a culturally specific institution its a white institution. And so it's like mostly working agianst THAT I feel like is what im trying to do. is what I'm trying to do and I feel like the experiences of black Americans, slave descendants is something that is the most directed. And so, that also happens to be who I am. Yeah, but I also think there's an urgancey there. Mostly like trying to fight against like the implicit bias of the institution, more so than it is me, at least in my imagining, I mean, maybe there's something to me being like, Oh, you look like, but you know, it's more, it's more about that like fighting against the with the bias of the institution and less like you look like me heres the job.

Ari Wil 21:21 Um, I do have to say, I'm really glad that you simply just called out the Studio Museum and El Barrio, even though it's gonna be on the recording, my professor keeps forcing, like trying to push me to go to like, those two specific institutions and like, El Taller, yeah, and another one, which is cool, great. I really do want to go study them. She was almost telling me like not to come and do this interview, because I had these resources. But I'm just like, I go to the MOMA. You more than I've ever been to the student museum. Yeah. So I'm curious about how this works. I'm just really glad that you said that

Taja Cheek 21:53 It just like operates very differently in those institutions, like there's a lot like I've never worked there but like I feel like most people I've encountered in the art world have gone through one of those. And if there are, you know, black or brown or Latnix. And yeah, there are certain assumptions that don't have to be made. Right. So like you think about diversity very differently. You know?

Ari Wil 22:19 Yeah.

Taja Cheek 22:19 Like it's maybe scrutinized more when studio has a white curator. You know, it doesn't really happen here.

Ari Wil 22:30 Do you see that it's like a, an advantage or disadvantage.

Taja Cheek 22:38 Advantage in what sense? I guess like there is.. there's, you know, it's just a very different experience than working around other black people in the world which is not an experience that very often. Probably count on one hand how many times thats happened. It does different things to the stuff you're making. I'll say like, you know? When white institutions exclusion, it try to cover topics that are sort of outside of their, like cultural specificity, let's say, like there's just like certain things that happens to those projects where they're always looked at differently. It would be interesting to see like, how they're funded, like, when they're funded like,how their talks about like, what sort of context that looks like and ends up being like what that container is. And story Yeah, so it's sometimes it can be difficult even when you're just working with black people but it's still within a White institution.

Ari Wil 23:49 Yeah. That makes sense.

This one is going to be a little different but are there any specific tools you use to gauge audience needs?

Taja Cheek 24:05 Thats a great question. I think a lot of things happen at PS 1 pretty organically. It's like a weird institution because it's attached to this huge thing, MoMA and but it's also definitely still has to spirit of being this scrappy artist space from the 70s it's constantly kind of like yo yoing between those two. Wait I just totally forgot the question.

Ari Wil 24:40 Well, how do you gauge audience?

Taja Cheek 24:41 Oh, yeah. So I think you know, Sunday sessions when I know of it's usually in a very humble in the beginning and it kept growing and growing and production value has increasingly become more intentional on a lot of things happen though we haven't been able to engage that very much. I think we barely kind of know where audiences we know that they are artists and New York centric, like mostly fairly educated, like we know some small things about that audience but we're for the first time doing a email survey which we've never done before it was really really important for us to figure out like who we're serving and who where it was like it was coming because we don't actually really know like we have some guesses.

Ari Wil 25:27 Yeah, yeah. And so no your gusses just from like, being there and experiencing kind of

Taja Cheek 25:33 Being there and experiencing. You know, there have been some PS1 surveys I believe. So we kind of know about our audience versus MOMA audience but we don't know specifically about Sunday Sessions.

Ari Wil 25:47 Okay, (inaudible.) I think it might have been in the same Interview magazine interview, I'm not sure. But there's a quote where it says you are a "self described curious, outsider ally, facilitators practitioner." Is there anything else you would add to that resume identities thing?

Taja Cheek 26:27 Oh, man. I don't know. I feel like ultimately I feel like I'm sort of in the process of trying to take things away.

Ari Wil 26:37 Oh!

Taja Cheek 26:38 Rather than adding. I feel like a lot of times -

Ari Wil 26:41 Why take away?

Taja Cheek 26:42 Well, I feel like artists especially are like I can only say this because I also like to work but I feel like a lot of arts administrators probably feel this way but artists are often looked at like a separate class of humans. and like they have special needs and special things and totally they interact with the World in this way. And I think it's true if I didn't believe in an artist, I wouldn't be doing what I do ultimatley. But I also think that artists are just people. And that we should really be thinking about them as people and that like everybody has like a creative side to the work that they do. And like, I just saw Martha Wilson talk yesterday, who co founded like, who founded Franklin Furnace, and she was talking about being an artist and a curator. And she was thinking through that, and just kind of saying that at some point, you figured out that being an Art Administrator is a form of creative practice. And yeah, I feel like a burden and ultimately unhelpful sometimes to think of artist as being i separate process only a few people that are like good enough to do a certain thing like ultimately, like we all are just attracted to certain things and there are certain people that we That are given opportunities to perform in certain places or exhibit places but that doesn't mean that like the person who's making music on the street corner as like any less of an artist, I think the more that we can just like making these designations and people being artists or tutor this or that it's like, makes it it just makes it more Heirarchal.

Ari Wil 28:25 Do you identify as an artists though?

Taja Cheek 28:28 I guess so. Yeah.

Ari Wil 28:29 Ok, cool. Yeah. Um, you also one time said that it's becoming increasingly more difficult for artists to sustain themselves, spiritually and financially. What do you mean by spiritually? What would you think?

Taja Cheek 28:50 I guess now, I don't exactly know what I was thinking about then. I guess now I would think about time, like time is a resource and leisure is a privilege. And that if you are constantly working and thinking about how you're going to make ends meet, or like having meetings for your work for artists in general, like you don't have a lot of time to just like do nothing. I mean, talking to a lot of other working artists, I kind of sympathize with that. Just like time is a limited resource.

Ari Wil 29:28 And I want to look at how we can be accessible to artists, you know, and inclusive to artists. How can curators or just like, yeah, the arts institutions help out these artists that are, are separating these ways and like don't have the time or what support do you need?

Taja Cheek 29:52 Yeah, that's a good question. I think we're all kind of thinking about that. I'm thinking about that. A lot. It would be with the musicians because they into like an art spaces. Music kind of occupies this really weird space where it's kind of foreign to the art world, but also like really connected to in a lot of ways. And it's like hard to tell how, you know, and I'm sort of in this position where I'm thinking a lot about music specifically, and I'm trying to think through what musicians need. It's sort of unclear how we can support. Yeah, it really depends. I think we have to figure out who our community of artists is first. Right. I think that's sort of where I am. At least I can't speak for institution, obviously, but like, you know, Long Island City is changing a lot. And it's pretty much the biggest, fastest growing residential market I think maybe in the country. It's a very part of the reason why Amazon has been moving here, like all these things are happening here. And so our you know, Our general community is changing. And so it's like what does that mean for artists? Where are we serving? Is it mostly artists in New York? Is it young artists, older artists, is it everyone? Is it like, what are our priorities? What are we interested in? Kind of working interested in? And so I think I'm at least in the point where I'm still interrogating that and trying to figure out, like, what we're doing and who we are on that level, which is constantly evolving. And so I can't really answer that question. So I figured that out. But like, space and time, I feel like are mostly the things like you have a residency program that my coworker has really been spearheading, where, you know, we have this giant dome, and it's just sitting around all the time. We can give that to people as resources use, yeah, and work on things that they're preparing for, even if they are presenting work at the PS1 they can use it as a place to work on other things.

When you think about that idea, though, Does that seem achievable? Thank you feel like you can approach your institution as often about using the dome in other ways.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's it's happening. It seems like something that they want to do more. Yeah, it's funny for music. I feel like we were thinking about I was just talking today during a meeting about rubber tracks.

Ari Wil 32:13 Rubber track?

Taja Cheek 32:14 Yeah, it was like this is this converse initiative. It sounds really silly because it's like a corporate entity. But they provided such a crazy, immense resource to musicians when they had a physical building with, I think one or two recording studios, rehersal space. And it was an application based process so you could apply and they're like, they asked you if you want to work on one song or a part of a song or an album, and you send some samples of your work and like when you're available and they happened on like, some sort of cycle. They would select people and they'd match you up with engineers, and incredible equipment, the files, no strings attached and you get to shoes I think.

Ari Wil 33:02 Wow.

Taja Cheek 33:04 I think, you know, thinking about things like that, like, how do you like literally how do you like facilitate the process of making or making, or giving people like at a space level, I hope that our program gives people, the artists that we invite to make work, an opportunity to make new work, and to either like, try a part of their practice try to expand a part of their practice that they don't usually have a chance to think about or exhibit and or to like go deeper into something that they're already interested in. But always making new work.

Ari Wil 33:37 Yeah, but might you say that's part of like the spiritual like work that needs to be upheld for artists of having that space?

Taja Cheek 33:43 I think I have space and I'm lucky to have and so I think I felt a little bit of an obligation to share it. Its kinds of really where that came from. I, that happens less now. And I'm trying to figure out like, what my relationship to that is because I also felt very draining me and a lot of ways personally. But yeah, I think I just came out of that. And I just knew a lot of people that were like the guitarist, and they need a place for her during the day to be loud in their apartments, like I live between three or four churches. So I don't really have to worry about noise because there's no one really there and I have stone walls, like no one really cares what's happening. Yeah, I'm very lucky in that sense.

Ari Wil 33:43 Yeah, speaking of space I do remember and a lot of your interviews the mention of your basemnet that you use. Can I ask you to talk a little bit about that? Like, what promted you to do that?

Taja Cheek 33:43 Yeah.

Ari Wil 34:33 So, like, what have you seen, like immediate benefits to like providing that space to people are like, Yeah, what kind of rewards came from that?

Taja Cheek 34:44 I don't know, a sense of community. I think more than anything, especially with extreme improvisers, and sort of like people making more experimental music. It really became an important part. Though, I think the landscape in New York for like really niche kinds of music. That's a double edged sword too, because I sort of realized, like, as I was opening my home to other people that, you know, MY sense of like, who I wanted to use the space was necessarily open to this coming necessarily. Like the sort of like build it and they will come mentality is like, not a thing. Like, you have to really be intentional about that. And so I was like, oh, there are a lot of like, white guys using the basement Like, what does that mean? Like, how does that work? You know, so that kind of way slow down too. That was another part of it too. It's also because of like that particular scene, there are not tons of black and brown people but there were times when like, I don't know sometimes we would list things on the internet, which is kind of crazy that we did that. That was kind of like before a lot of, you know, the sort of like the DIY warehouse tragedies happened .. so once that happened, we started like cracking down on how we were publicized. So before that we're kind of just like Loosey Goosey about everything. And so I remember once we have this show, and I met this like, black woman, and they were kind of like, sitting in the basement and I was like "whhhhat are you doing here, like you're here!" and I went to talk to them. They're like, "Oh, yeah, I just saw it on the websites. I just came in. Like, I didn't know that there are like other black people doing things like this". It's like moments like that would happen. And that would make it really worth it to me. I'm not I'm under no illusion that it was like the most diverse space. And that's why the reason why it kind of slowed down

Ari Wil 36:40 Thats a part of creating accessible spaces anyone's gonna come in. Yeah. That's accessible and inclusive. Yes, that is right. Right. Okay. Sick. Thank you so much. Yeah, yes. Okay.

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accessthearts · 6 years ago

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Ari Wil 0:00 Okay, um, could you introduce yourself and maybe say your occupation?

Ellysheva Z. 0:04 Sure, you don't mind it on the donut crumbs? So I'm Ellysheva B.Z. and my title at the tenement museum is education specialist for access and food programs.

Ari Wil 0:17 Okay, I did see that, that it's an access and food program. So I want to clarify that. What is food programs?

Ellysheva Z. 0:23 Food programs, we do two different types of food programs at the tenement museum. We have a food walking tour, and we have a sit down dinner program. It's just another way to talk about immigration migrants and refugees in the neighborhood and the ways that they're doing business and how those groups of people have impacted the lives of Americans. Talking about it through food is something that's very accessible to people in different ways. It's you know, you eat I we all love eating so let's talk about how..what kind of impact kind of food has on us and What kind of food impact impact food has when you go from one place to another.

Ari Wil 1:05 So would it be kind of fair to say that you're using food almost synonymous like community?

Ellysheva Z. 1:11 Totally. Okay. I think, yeah, building community food helps us build community across disparate communities. So like, I have a favorite food, have you ever favorite food and we can talk about what that means to each other and how we're connected through that. Okay, um, it's just there are lots of ways at the tenement museum that we're trying to get people to make connections. And I'm a big fan of keeping those connections broad, because we can't expect somebody to necessarily from their viewpoint from their ability level to make the connection that like, I have, like similar experiences to immagrants that leave might not always be possible. And there are lots of Ways to try to make that happen. But just the basic level of connection like you like to, I like to eat. Yeah. And that can be enough. And that can be a place where you get to somewhere else. Yeah. The director, Vice President and the president of education, whatever the person who is my grand boss, so the bottom of my boss, the other night said something about how when we are giving tours and when we're talking about these populations, we're not there's no way we can necessarily always change thinking we can make a change, but we can forward the conversation. That sometimes we can get all the way there but knowing that you're making progress in a conversation is just as important.

Ari Wil 2:47 Okay, yeah. Um, how long have you had this position?

I've had this position since 2013. Six years, I guess.

and how old is the position?

Ellysheva Z. 2:56 The position I i've been.. I know most of the people who have had this position before me because the accessibility in museums world is very, very small. I think at certain points. This job has been combined with other jobs in different ways. But the museum was founded by two women who wanted to create a museum for everyone. And I actually asked recently, one of the founders, we did an event and I asked her like, hey, I've always theorized that the museum has been so entrenched in accessibility for so long, because between the time we just they discovered the building and the Time magazine was founded, the Americans with Disabilities Act was passed. So I thought, like, Oh, this law was passed. We were like, shoot, we need to get on this. And she said, Yes, partially it but it was also partially that we wanted to make sure in as many ways as we could, that this museum was accessible to as many people as we could. That's cool. It's had different iterations and different times. So I don't think I can necessarily say like, how long this position has been around. I know the person that I had this postion before me, it was half of their job. Whereas for a while it was 100% of my job. And now it's like I'd say 80% of my job.

Ari Wil 4:21 Whats the other 20?

Ellysheva Z. 4:22 Food Programs.

Ari Wil 4:23 Oh, well, no, well, that's still in the in the realm. Okay, what do you think that I'm not what do you think about what typically does it get paired with like,your accessibility and you're..?

Ellysheva Z. 4:35 Access and community programs. What I see more often than not and other institutions access and food programs is something I've never seen.

Ari Wil 4:42 Okay, well, that's cool. Yeah. And what did you guys coin the thing food program? Like when did that start?

Ellysheva Z. 4:48 I think we started two programs around 2012 ? With the guy who was in charge of walking tours, he created an offshoot of a food walking tour and then we created it like a sit down in your version of the And then he left and someone else took over them, they left and I have been working with food programs since maybe around 2012 when they were first brought into the museum, so I have a good background knowledge of them. And I also helped him with kind of like the backend stuff of those programs. So it was just like, you know, this and it's, we can like talk like, we can talk ourselves into a corner that it's accessible. Like, yeah, we can like make the argument, so thats how I got it.

Ari Wil 5:29 Okay. I'm sorry. Another question about the program- has it been engaging

Ellysheva Z. 5:38 The work or the themselves programs?

Ari Wil 5:39 The food programs themselves? Yeah, have they been like effective and engaging?

Ellysheva Z. 5:42 Yeah, they've definitely been effective and engaging. People really enjoy them be really like them. We like to get people to kind of talk about themselves and their stories. And I think food programs are one of the easiest ways that that happens because everyone loves to talk about the food that they like the food that they make of the food, their mom or grandma Mom or dad or whoever made so they're engaging in that way. And I think people really like to uncover like, what American food is. And like, we American food is like nothing.

Ari Wil 6:13 Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And I think people get really excited with that very concrete, like, American food is a mix of everything. There's definitely some challenges with the program of course, but it is really good time.

We're talking about challenges sense you guys primarily can only have the guided tour.. what challenges and opportunities because having guided tours?

Ellysheva Z. 6:44 So I can start with opportunities. I like starting with the good stuff first. Um, I think one of the greatest opportunities we have in a guided tour and a guided tour format is that we can meet the needs of visitors like face to face so we can As long you know, as long as people tell us in a certain sense, but we can also kind of read a group and think like, oh, okay, so these are your needs, this is how I might adjust your tour for you. And because we have so many different versions of our programs, and sometimes that's just like for school groups or for you know, just different audiences, there are separate things that we can take, like things that are toolboxes really large, because we work with so many different audiences. And we don't really segment audiences so it's not like we have only school group educators who work with schools, okay, they work with school grab, standpoint. So they can also just say, like, Oh, I'm going to grab this

Ari Wil 7:49 Resource or strategy?

Ellysheva Z. 7:51 That's really great. Um, and it also allows us to like kind of, Like the tools that we have available, an educator a guide can give them to you and let them know you are there. They're available, we get to talk to every single person that comes to the museum, right and try our best to make sure they get what they need to enjoy the experience. And I think that's really, really exciting. It also gives us a chance to like, do verbal description a lot. But I think that's a really good example where like, we encourage educators to use verbal description on all of their tours, but then we all can also specialize towards the focus on verbal description. And so there's just a lot of ways we can mold that format to fit our needs. I think there are a couple of different drawbacks. I think a lot of drawbacks, a lot of drawbacks that I often think of focus on our building itself, because it is not fully wheelchair accessible. It is really small cramped and crowded and there are a lot of people who either That makes it inaccessible to them, or really uncomfortable for them. And so that's really challenging. Our building is really challenging because it is. It's it's been abandoned for so long. It's very delicate, like from a presentation standpoint. Yeah. So there are things we can't do there, which is challenging. But I think with a guided tour, there are people who don't want to listen to a lecture, and that doesn't fit best with like, what they need in a learning environment. And we don't have a lot of opportunities for self directed learning. And that that is really challenging.

Ari Wil 9:36 I,okay, that's a really good point to be made.

Ellysheva Z. 9:40 Yeah.

Ari Wil 9:42 You were, you're talking about educators and how they can like the diverse in the resources they utilize. How do you guys prepare them?

There's a it's a it's a pretty intense process. We give to our context, you learn one tour at a time Your first tour, you get a big packet of content, you read it over, you observe people giving the tour twice different people. Hopefully, you get a walkthrough of the tour itself. And then you are evaluated by staff members. For each additional program you learn that process is more or less repeated. We do a lot of observations of other programs, we have a lot of resources. And we also do a lot of training. There's different training I do for accessibility. And then for the way that we kind of see our storytelling method. We call it facilitated "storytelling". And it's about kind of like bringing the visitor into the storytelling process and finding ways to incorporate their knowledge and their participation in the creation of that tour and that story in that moment. So there's a lot of training and a lot of resources and a lot of observations that go into that.

Besides the preliminary trainign You guys do like, you've been here for two years heres an update training ?

Ellysheva Z. 11:04 sometimes Yeah, we do monthly meetings. And we bring scholars in usually to talk about, we bring in scholars or experts to talk about things that either relevant to the tour content or relevant to the current experience experiences being an immigrant or a refugee, or we do like update trainings where we're like, bringing new things in or thinking about better ways to craft our stories or connect with our visitors. So their monthly trainings And right now, our trainings are mostly within your first year. Outside of those educator meetings, we don't do a lot of trainings for people who have been here too much longer, but I think that's definitely where we can grow in the future.

Ari Wil 11:57 Yeah, definitley something note, that potentially.

Ellysheva Z. 12:00 Totally.

Ari Wil 12:00 Um, well then also back to the building, how you work around physical barriers to access? And then I also want to know more about getting that elevator?

I don't think we'll ever get an elevator in 97 orchard street just because there's actually no place to put it. This really interesting thing happened that I don't have any necessarily documentation for but I've heard stories. So in the very beginnings of the museum with that founders, they wanted to acquire the building next door, and they tried to do it through eminent domain. She know about eminent domain?

No.

Ellysheva Z. 12:42 Ok, I'm going to domain is when an institution usually it's the government says I have a better use when you're building your space your property than you do. And so I am going to acquire it from you by force. It was Yes, it's it's it's how a lot of bridges got built. Its how a lot of streets have gotten like widened for like double lane traffic.

Ari Wil 13:05 Yeah, in Boston. That happened all the time.

Ellysheva Z. 13:07 Yeah, eminent domain is did I do to my phone? Yeah. So great. Well, cool. Thanks. Um, so they wanted to acquire the building next door whith eminent domain so they could put an elevator kind of like carve out the building next door use..

Ari Wil 13:22 I love neocolonialism, but for access.

Like, yeah, definitely, definitely created like bad feelings within the neighborhood towards the tenement museum. There are some neighbors and residents who still remember that and like fucking hate us.

Spicy.

Ellysheva Z. 13:41 Yeah, totally. So there's that. So there's because because our building doesn't have an elevator because it is like in this preserved state. It was a time capsule from 1935 until the building was discovered by these two founders. So everything Just left as is, which is crazy. But the hallways are really narrow. So we'd have to net wide wide in the hallways and like take out the stairs to put in an elevator, we'd have to get rid of so much historic character of the building that it is literally never going to happen. But every time we've had the chance to put in some sort of elevator technology, we've done it. So when we, the basement became a tour became an exhibit in 2012. And at that point we had we put in a platform lift. So it goes from sidewalk level to basement level. And then because we had to really recreate that space in a way that we've never had to before all the doorways are wide enough, all the hallways are widened. And the same thing with our exhibit that we finished like two years ago, that has an elevator because we kind of redid that whole building and we did put in the doorways and hallways and things that are necessary. There's one door that was alm,ost not wide enough. And I was like so pissed. But it happened and we're fine.

Ari Wil 15:06 Nice.

Ellysheva Z. 15:08 That was frustrating. So wait, what was the question?

Ari Wil 15:12 Oh, yeah. How do you work around barriers like physical barrier? Yeah.

Sometimes it's putting in elevators and places where they aren't supposed to go where we can or that they weren't built to go. They're supposed to go wherever we can put them in. The other interesting thing we do is we have a lot of neighborhood tours, neighborhood walking tours, and those follow wheelchair wheelchair accessible routes. So as we expand what we do, we're finding other accessible venues to put those things in. We're also kind of trying to reach into the digital world. We're starting to do starting to experiment with distance learning where you like do a video conference to a classroom somewhere far away and that's a great way to bring accessibility and as well because that can go to students who might not be able to come we also So have a Google expedition, which we worked with WNET, which is the local like PBS, in New York, and they created this 3d, like virtual reality viewer into the tenement museum. So that's a kind of way that we build accessibility. And sometimes it's just like special access. Like, our rooms are narrow and cramped, and all that stuff. So we do early morning or later afternoon tours for visitors on the autism spectrum and their families. Just like if you need to be alone. Great. Let's do it. Tomorrow, I'm doing this like sometimes we just go above and beyond when we can like if somebody needs to, because we also don't allow mobility devices to be carried into the building or people to be carried into the building, just for the surroundings and also for like emergency purposes. Cuz it's a rough situation to be in. But tomorrow, a teacher book to school group, one of their kids had mobility concerns at the beginning of the year. But those progressed into a point where the student is now using a wheelchair. And the tours that they booked are not wheelchair accessible. So I spent a long time on the phone with that teacher. And we created a plan of what the student is going to do. And they figured out how the student might be able to get into the building with a little support from their physical therapist, and I'm going to do a virtual tour with them. And we're going to keep them with their class as much as possible. Yeah, sometimes just taking that time to create an experience where you might not have one otherwise if you didn't take the time.

Have you ever gotten like a really intense response when you're not able to meet me?

Ellysheva Z. 17:52 Oh, definitely. Definitely. The last time I'm thinking about it, I mean, There was a I did a similar thing with another student whose teacher didn't check in advance to see if the floor was wheelchair accessible. And and she and I were in a room and we did the virtual tour and it was great. And then he realized, like he was little he was like second grade and he realized he wasn't with his friends at one point and started to cry. It's like, I understand, like, yeah. And one time, somebody came in as like a walk up and they wanted an ASL interpreter. They wanted an ASL tour. They actually just wanted to go in and look around. I was like, we don't do that. We can't do that. And they're like, well, these guided tours are discriminatory towards people who use sign language. And I'm like, I totally understand where your perspective comes from. I don't feel that way. But I know...

Ari Wil 18:52 But its true, if everyday youre working through the system that's against you.

Ellysheva Z. 18:55 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Ari Wil 18:56 yeah.

Ellysheva Z. 18:57 So it doesn't happen often. But it does happen.

Ari Wil 19:01 Were you able to get them an ASL?

Ellysheva Z. 19:04 I can't do day of. I need two weeks. I've tried to do in less than two weeks and it's extremely difficult to get an ASL interpreter lesson in less than two weeks.

Ari Wil 19:16 You guys have your own on retainer?

Ellysheva Z. 19:19 No, We do have a we work with a couple of contractors who do ASL tours, their death and they do the tours themselves. And it's an all in ASL experience. And those are free and they happen once every other month. So there's like things that we're offering. Yeah, but when your needs can't be met, and you were like expecting your needs to be met. That's a really frustrating situation. I totally understood that perspective. And yeah, yeah, there are limits we have that really suck. Yeah.

Ari Wil 19:50 Um, alright. I want to talk a little bit about audience. Sure. In your blog post. It's on the tenement museum.

Ellysheva Z. 20:09 Oh, cool. Long time ago. Alright.

Ari Wil 20:12 Yeah, I think it's from like 2017. Um, you use the word "wide audience" I use the word wide audience to in my research, the aim is to reach a wider audience, right in accessibility work. What's a wider audience? What actually does that mean to you?

Ellysheva Z. 20:28 I think whenever I say a wide audience, I'm thinking about people who like identify as having a disability and getting their needs met, and people who don't identify as having a disability but also having accessibility needs and that they're just not categorizing that way. It's kind of like trying to accommodate for as many people as possible. Yeah. And that's from my perspective, in the work that I do, but I know they're definitely ways where we're, you know, we're always trying to bring in people from a wide Audience across the board, like, with background and race and class. And at least from the education department standpoint, that's what we're trying to do. But sometimes kind of, especially with socio economic status, there's a lot that we're trying to do to bring in people for free. But there are things that you know, we can struggle against the people in the museum whose job it is, is to, you know, make the money and like, look at the money. There are things that we're like not doing that we would like to do, but we're like making small steps and like, widening our audience in a lot of different ways. There are a lot of internal efforts that we're doing to broaden and widen our audience, you know, on all different fronts

Ari Wil 21:49 To clarify, when you say access, you're including area like marginalized people of everywhere?

Ellysheva Z. 21:57 that's more the definition that we're starting to Look at in the tenement Museum, okay, um, we're kind of like the overall umbrella of access. We have like these teams that really haven't met in a while we have a new newish strategic plan. And we were all kind of put into these teams to like, bring forth this change. And so the accessibility team access team was like thinking about people with disabilities, and people speak languages other than English, and people have different socio economic statuses. And so there's there's definitely ways that we're looking at that in a broader sense. I think we're continuing to broaden that all the time. There's definitely work that we want to do.

Ari Wil 22:43 Because in my research, I say access and inclusion Yeah, and so now I'm like, I kind of like that I have an inclusion of like, makes the point of like access to the next like, cover all intersectionalities is definitely but having so many "ands" in my research bothers me so I don't know if "access" will be the appropriate thing. I don't know.

Ellysheva Z. 23:03 I think, I mean, I don't know a lot about research. But I think if you define what you mean, you define it once, right? It can be whatever you want it to be.

Ari Wil 23:12 I love that. Actually, you're right. If I start off just saying what I'm saying. Yeah, exactly. Include. Yeah, good point. Um, well, what was I gonna say? Oh, yeah. Okay, well, we're talking about socio economic stuff to, this is kind of just like my, my question that's, like, keeps me up at night. Oh, totally, um, is we can have free admission prices. But can we deal with the cultural barriers that prevent people who are homeless from coming into museums?

Yeah, it's tough. I mean,

Ellysheva Z. 24:04 I think there are, like when you think about your traditional museum with like, it's like grand architecture and like brick and mortar, I think that can be just so intimidating to people feel like they don't belong there. Don't think there's anything that we're currently doing at the museum that kind of addresses that. But I do know that because of our location in the neighborhood that we're in, and because of we have a visitor center and a bookshop, that's kind of like, open and on the street. And that's like our biggest public face and we have chairs and we have a movie. People will come in and spend time there.

Ari Wil 24:54 That's, cool.

Ellysheva Z. 24:56 Actually, I was walking home from the subway the other day, and someone stops me Like, I don't, I am making assumptions. I'm saying like, maybe they are homeless. they're experiencing homelessness. But they were like, are you in the movie? In the museum over there? They play a movie and you're in and I'm like, yeah. And she's like, I spend a lot of time in there. I was like this really cool. Thanks for recognizing me. So that definitely I didn't know that people like went in there and just hung out and like..

Ari Wil 25:34 That's really cool. You said that because when another interview I did with someone PS1 MoMA, yeah. also had to say like, no, we're not doing anything to address that issue. But I think that what we could do is increase the amount of dwelling spaces we have. Sure. So we just had casual dwelling spaces, literally anywhere in the museum. I'm sure that people would come in so it's nice to see like now an example of that. Yeah, yeah. Like just Having space to be in can make a difference.

Yeah, exactly. Safety is so important to like comfortability and and also access like it. Full Circle. And I know that we define the audience for trying to attract as a wide audience, right? What is your target audience like, our current audience, your current?

Ellysheva Z. 26:03 Yeah, I think there's like there's a lot of we do I think there are people, there's a lot of you know, issues that people are dealing with and in New York City in a city you see a lot of those and we do sometimes get people who I don't know what they're experiencing but they definitely are threatening in various ways at different times. And that can be you know, a struggle for the educators safety and visitors safety and staff safety and so it's definitely something that like looking to positively is like we there's a space for people to hang out and just spend time but also that comes with concerns for sure.

So I think it depends on like, what section of audience we're like thinking about when we're talking about like, who is an everyday visitor, we get, like 30% of people from the New York area 30% of people from the tri state area and 30% of people internationally, like a third from each. And I think all of those people have disposable income generally, and all of those people. I mean, not all of those people, I think a large percentage of those people are definitely white. I think we skew older. We have like an older generation that's coming. I think more and more as word spreads. We're getting a more diverse audience in some ways, and not in others because we have we have an expensive ticket and I think that we Don't do a whole lot of free programming. And the free program that we do is very, very targeted. So like, accessibility programming is free. And that really brings in New Yorkers, and generally brings in older New Yorkers with disabilities. And it brings in the museum crowd, the people already feel comfortable in museums, there's like a circuit of them. And people go from museum to Museum, museum Museum, and that's kind of very social interaction. It's it's still like, it's always more diverse than I expect it to be, which is great. But it's still a very small subsection of any other free programming that we do is we do we work with English classes like English learning schools throughout New York, and we offer programming that's free to English language learners. And they come in for specialized programming for English language learners, and that's really great and that has a very Specific like they are all immigrants Yeah. And their immigrants from all over it really depends on what school what class sometimes it's like a lot of people from the same place and sometimes it's a bunch of people from different places. We definitely get a lot of Spanish speakers so

Ari Wil 29:17 Do you guys have like translated placards ?

Ellysheva Z. 29:21 Nope we don't have any placards anywhere. Um, we do have a guide books in different languages that kind of give you an outline of the tour so people can follow along. But language is definitely one of the accessibility areas that we want to like branch into. And all of the programming that we do this free for English language learners is like at language level, but in English, so we have beginner programs, we have intermediate programs and we have like advanced program and the educators would give those tours have like a little bit more experience in creating good learning experiences for that group.

Ari Wil 30:00 Do you think that it's a predominantly white space? because historically?

Ellysheva Z. 30:05 I think there's a lot of different things. I think it's I think part of it is cost. I think part of it is the stories that we are currently telling. We're telling a lot of stories about like white Europeans, we're branching into different spaces. And we are like expanding the stories that we tell for sure. We also don't do a lot of advertising. So the way most people find out about it is like by reading the newspaper or seeing something online or hearing about it from a friend. Yeah.

Ari Wil 30:36 So it stays in that bubble.

Ellysheva Z. 30:39 I think so. Um, but we do get, I think, what we get school students from all over New York, and we get that more diversity through the school audience. Teachers are booking the trips, and they know that it's a place to come because like curriculum In New York and I think the United States you're studying immigration at certain points in time. So like it fits with curriculum. Yeah, to bring them here. Yeah. And so we do get like, a lot of different students that way. And possibly they're going home to their parents and being like, this is really cool. We should come back. But, yeah, okay.

Ari Wil 31:21 Interesting. Um, okay. Um, how much do you work across departments?

Ellysheva Z. 31:40 So much. I work within the education department a lot. I work with visitor services because they're another front facing staff cool. And there are a lot of things that they offer and that they do because they are the ones who like see the visitors first, so alot with them. I work a fair amount with development. Because they raised the money and so yeah, they raised the money. I work with the curatorial departments sometimes because I'm like, Hey, can we touch this thing? Like just for this one time? Can we touch this thing? And they're like in the education department, because tours are the, like primary ways that visitors like are interacting with the museum. We interact with almost every other department, because its facilities are talking to visitor services. We talked to finance because we spend the money and we don't interact with them a lot. And that's a tough relationship, but HR, because we have a lot of employees. Yeah.

Well, how do you manage that and keep people accountable? Because I'm sure that it's a far reaching thing.

Yeah, it's really tough, keeping people accountable. It's like I do have to like, get on people. Like, reminders and check ins and that can be really challenging because things become more important or less important. And some things just fall to the wayside. What I'm working on right now, as we started an inclusion and equity, access and Diversity Council, we put it in that order. So it can spell IDEA because that's like the cheesiest.

Ari Wil 33:23 I love that.

Ellysheva Z. 33:26 IDEA Council and I requested to be honest, I don't know, I was like, I'm going to do that because it's important. Like, I have seen, like, there's so much more of that work that's coming in through museums and that people are paying attention to more and that's like really great, but I often find that the accessibility part of that like, section gets left out. Like when we're talking about equity inclusion diversity. People will say access or people will not say access, but in many ways it gets like left out.

Ari Wil 33:59 Abelism is just rampant though it just seems like something that like really have gone unchecked. It just is so unchecked,

Ellysheva Z. 34:06 So ucnhecked. So that makes sense. Yeah. So I was like, I need to be here because I need to make this happen. And they need to make sure it's considered and like really baked in. And it's, it's, it's working, I think there's so many more ways to grow. But one way that we are growing, the project that I'm working on for that Council is to create a baseline and accessibility baseline throughout the museum. So like, these are the standards for creating exhibits, films for creating print material for creating online content, for creating tours for doing events like this is what you need to consider to make it accessible. And this is the level that we're going to get to and then next year, we're going to build then next year, we're going to build this section and next year, we're going to build it and within that plan. What I'm going to make everybody do is write a plan for how they're going to meet baseline for every department.

Ari Wil 34:58 Whoa. Cool.

Ellysheva Z. 34:59 So we'll see how It goes, it could fail horribly. That's what I'm mostly worried about. But it's a good it's a good try. I'm beginning to think a lot about what happens when I leave. Because I've been there. All total to the tenement museum. I've been there for about 10 years. Yeah. So it's like time to move somewhere else. And it's, so I want to put a lot of things in place to make sure the work that I did and do doesn't just fall apart,

Ari Wil 35:27 Ya no, exactly. That's the that's the biggest tragedy and the work that we do and yeah, it's starting these programs, like to no avail. Yeah. So do you think that maybe putting in place like a guideline, like guidelines, would work as the best practice?

Ellysheva Z. 35:44 I don't know. Because I found it. I found it really challenging. Okay, here's what I think is the best practice around that is making institutional practice. Make accessibility institutional practice. And like I think that's the goal I'm working towards with these guidelines, it doesn't have to be guidelines or a baseline or whatever else. But making it making it institutional and making it everybody's job, I think is the best practice to making an accessible institution.

Ari Wil 36:20 And I know that you said you don't have experiences with other institutions. But do you think smaller institutions can do this work?

Ellysheva Z. 36:37 I think they can. Some ways, it's almost easier for smaller institutions to do it. Because it's, it's really from what I see or what I imagine it's really hard to change a big institution. Like it's harder because there's more people and there's more like things that are built in and baked in just with more history, there. So think small institutions, with people who are thinking about these things I think it is possible. I think, you know, it's just that willingness to make those changes. Yeah. And like, some big institutions just has such a like, mind blowing head starts, like, the MET. The Metropolitan Museum market has been doing accessibility programs since the 19teens. Yeah.

Ari Wil 37:29 Yeah. Yeah. But how does your institution have been worried about the noise? How does your institution like the big thing, support and inhibit you?

Ellysheva Z. 37:42 I think the way it supports me, my institution is that there are a lot of people in this like, my work is visible and people see it happen. And people can like see how that's important to us. And I get to like talk to a lot of people. I think that structure of like a small, a medium museum really does help. I think the way in which the institution itself kind of works against the work that we do is we don't have an endowment. Like we don't have like, a pool of money that we can draw on when times get tough. It's all about fundraising and ticket sales and things like that. And so because we don't have like unlimited funds, and we, we have to a lot of people, me, we have to focus, right, we can't do every thing. And so there are some people who are like, well, we can't, accessibility is expensive. Accessibility is just, we can't do it because it costs too much and it takes too much. And there are people who are not as committed to it because they don't see it in that same kind of way. And I think Not not from any, like, necessarily ableist perspective, or at least like I really try to give people the benefit of the doubt because it's easier to work with people when you're not like, Yeah, um, but there might be thinking about costs, they might be thinking about time, because we have so many people working so hard. And so many things with accessibility are just time consuming and expensive. Yeah, so I think that reality, so just to be like capitalism. Yeah. Yeah, that's really what's against me. It's just like we live in a capitalist society. I think about that alot. I don't I don't I don't see any way out of it. Like, yeah, yeah.

Ari Wil 39:50 Yeah this is where we are. Yeah those damn capitalist. Well, what was I gonna say. That aggressive had not really. took out of it. I get it. Oh, yeah, so I was another panel that was like one of the most important things that you can do for accessibility is just carve out a budget for it like you have to budget for accessibility.

Ellysheva Z. 40:13 Yeap.

Ari Wil 40:15 I just I just made me think of that. Do you have any thoughts on budgeting?

Ellysheva Z. 40:19 I do. I think carving out a budget for accessibility is great. I do I always had a budget for accessibility. I have a separate budget for accessibility outside of education, which is fascinating. And like, I just, I go big. I'm like, I want these things. And they're like, you can't have these things. That sucks. Because sometimes those aren't the things that were like extra, you know, yeah. But this year was the first I think I just kept doing it kept doing it. This is the first year I've gotten everything approved in my budget, which is great. But we're having a tough budget year so I don't know what's gonna end up happening. Yeah. But the other thing is, is I'm trying to get other people to budget for it. And that's hard.

Ari Wil 41:08 Really?

Ellysheva Z. 41:08 Because like, like, for example is very specific example, we have all these folding stores that are like really handy. And visitors use them for all different kinds of things. I like to keep the ones that are the education departments in the building, because that's where we need the the seats. visitor services likes having some because visitors request seating. So it's like, well, you know, you should get your own that are a different color so we can tell between them and you're not just like constantly, yeah, trying to take my stools. They didn't. They didn't budget for it. And I have no control over their budget you know, process. I'm in my own department and I can check in on everybody else's department. So like budgeting is great, but if you don't have control over it, like. The other thing is, is having my own budget is great. But also, that means people don't have to spend their own budget funding. And because I'm not, like part of a part of the education department, I'm not part of anything higher than that. Like, I'm trying to get more captioning in everything that we do, which is the law. Bare minimum. But, but I was like, I wanted to get us a captioning funds through the IDEA Council, so that when somebody needs something caption, they can go there and take that. No, It didn't happen. But I made myself a captioning budget. I'm not giving it up, because I shouldn't use this word. And it's just like, that can be really frustrating. People are like, oh, but you have that money and you have that budget, so I don't need to do it.

Ari Wil 42:58 No exactly that's working. across departments and trying to keep people accountable like this is what? ya know what we're trying to do. Yeah. So challenging... Oh, um there's a question about a chart. The chart Yeah. I was just wondering, you you're, you're, you're a sunny person totally and like a positive human being, um, but is it anything outside of like optimism that has the language of the chart in like, what you guys can do instead of here, all the barriers?

Ellysheva Z. 43:49 I, I inherited the chart, and then I just updated it as we went along. So I do think, I think we have a mix on our website. I think the reason the chart is so handy is because there's so much information and like combing through that information is challenging, you know, the chart is helpful, because you can just,

Ari Wil 44:13 it's true. Here's where I am, right. It's true. No, that's good. About that wasn't really a question.

Ellysheva Z. 44:18 I got you. talking and positives is helpful, what we can do versus what we can't do. But I think it's also very important to be very explicit about what we cannot do. Yes, then that's our new website is really great, because each tour has its own page. And there's a lot of information on the page and I was also able to get this accessibility section where it's like the this store has this this store has this this one has this store has this so that people can see that and then make decisions from there.

Ari Wil 44:50 Cool. Okay. Yeah, I think that the best advice I've been given, it's just to be honest, and the more honest you are and the more you communicate.Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then this is looks like it may be my final question. Um, what responses have you got into your work? From patrons from your co workers? And for yourself, like, how do you respond to your work?

Ellysheva Z. 45:15 Yeah. Um, let's see, I'm co workers. I have a lot of great co workers within the education department who, who really have kind of taken these perspectives on in their own work. And that's really nice. And different people have different reactions to that. But I've had there's one co worker who ended up leaving and he would text me and say, like, I've been, like thinking about accessibility in this new job that I have, and I feel like I have my voice in your ear, your voice in my ear. But I think I get that a lot like that. Like I was away and we were doing an educator meeting and I've been trying to make those meetings more accessible. We've been using microphones to, like get the sound amplified a little bit more, but I wasn't there. And so at the outset of it, there was no microphone. But one of my colleagues was like, I'm hearing Ellysheva. I think we need a microphone. That's great. That's great. Yeah. And I think I do. And I, like I see that in my department and other departments. And like, you know, there's a lot of young people that work at the museum. And I think that they see the work, they hear the work that I'm doing, they see where or I tell them where I'm having barriers, and they from kind of just like a wider social justice perspective that I think a lot of young people have, they can see like, Oh, this stuff is crucial. And I think that's really important. Patrons are so great. We have repetitive patrons, which is both great and also I'm like, Where are the other people but that's a different story, but some of them like I think one of their to two comments that I love so much and One person said, I didn't know if this museum was for me. But then I saw touch tour and I came on, I touch tour. And I found out that this museum is absolutely for me. Like, that's phenomenal. This one time, we also had a family comd with mother who had low vision her husband and their son. And the son started out, sitting on some chairs, reading a book. And we took out the things that we use to make the museum a more accessible experience. And he put down his book and he came over and touched it. And like he was super into it. And I it was, it was one of the I don't remember exactly where it was in the like chronology of touch tours, but at the end, I asked for an email feedback. Like if you like this, please email me please call me and tell me about it because that's how we continue this. And this like, literally 10 year old boy came up to me was like, I would like your business card so that I can send you an email about how I like this tour. And it was the cutest email and the thing he said that I think for him was probably a throwaway line, but for me was like everything was this was something I could do together with my family. Like it was about, he was connected to the families we were talking about, but also connecting to the fact that it was something that they could all do together. Yeah. So like, there's so many, like, there's so many moments of that, where, like, people just thank me for the experience that I'm helping to provide to them. Yeah, seeing it, like something that's really exciting and really helpful and really wonderful. And that's just great. Um, I think what it has done for me, um, the reactions that I had to my work is I mean, like, sometimes it's tiring, and sometimes it's hard. But I have always really wanted to do something that was social justice related. I didn't know that when I was a kid, it was just like, I want to, quote unquote, help people. Yeah. But I think social justice is a different way to do that. And I don't know if I am doing this work has made me see myself as somebody isn't just like working on a one to one. But seeing like, there are things that I can do to actively change society for the better, even if it is on a smaller scale. Like it's definitely plugged me into, to a cause that I am passionate about, to a different way of seeing the world to like a different perspective and something that I'm really excited to do for hopefully the rest of my life.

Ari Wil 49:46 That just reminded me that I totally didn't mention that you're a part of the museum access consortium.

Ellysheva Z. 49:56 Just Just because I would probably get in trouble if I didn't say that. We are Now the museum arts and culture access Consortium, because we have like zoos and Botanic Gardens and theaters that are part of the consortium, doing it all over the place.

Ari Wil 50:13 But, um, I don't know if there's anything you want to say about that, or any last thoughts, kind of just wrap it up?

Ellysheva Z. 50:24 I like that a lot. I really do. It's a wonderful way to connect with colleagues, and to like, try to further this work outside of the work that I'm doing. But it's all volunteer, and that's really hard.

Ari Wil 50:42 What do you mean?

Ellysheva Z. 50:43 I don't get paid for that.

Ari Wil 50:44 You don't get paid for that?

Ellysheva Z. 50:45 Oh, yeah. like nobody, almost nobody gets paid for that only the people that are working to like, we have a big grant project and we have a couple of people who get paid to do that. Otherwise, we're all volunteer.

Ari Wil 51:00 So then what is the grant money going toward?

Ellysheva Z. 51:03 money is going towards our supporting transitions project. We are we've done supporting transitions for a while. And it's been working with individuals on the autism spectrum and with developmental disabilities. And at first it was to create like museum programming for them. But really one of the biggest issues that that community is facing is getting jobs. And so screen transitions is a program that is now working to create and like support, paid internships within the cultural accessibility world for individuals on the autism spectrum or with developmental disabilities. So they're getting paid to like, find those internships and you know, train those students and

Ari Wil 51:53 know that network.

Ellysheva Z. 51:53 Yes. And we are paying the students, individuals so like money through, like, give us money so that we can give somebody else money.

Ari Wil 52:04 Wow. Okay, that's really cool. It's very it's really cool.

Ellysheva Z. 52:08 Great sporting tradition is a fantastic program and I would love to bring into the tenement Museum, but I don't know if we're there yet.

Ari Wil 52:16 Who is there though? Like, who would you like who would you give this to.

Ellysheva Z. 52:21 I mean, the thing is, I don't want it like I want it to be not my work. Because there's so much I'm doing already that I don't necessarily I'm not exactly sure where I would what what tasks that intern to and having an intern is a lot of work, honestly. Like think of a project for them and I and so I wanted somebody else to bring somebody in to do but it might just have to be me that might be something that I'm gonna Look at it like the second half of the year. I really want to lots of things that I want to do another one of our idea council projects that's not mine is inclusive hiring. And I think this could be a step in that project.

Ari Wil 53:22 Oh,yeah. No, pass it over there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 53:34 I don't think so either.

Unknown Speaker 53:38 Let's double check.

Ari Wil 53:39 Yeah, double check. Take your time.

Unknown Speaker 53:46 I think I feel good. I'm Yes. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 53:51

Highfive.

Unknown Speaker 54:01

Highfive.

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