biglawwoes

[biglawwoes]

Law students: you will make a LOT of VERY MINOR and seemingly even obvious mistakes in your first year that you’ve never made or never would normally make but are making because you’re nervous/overworked/rushed/etc.

Sometimes you will even have a situation where someone draws attention to the mistake and you make the same mistake again.

Any mid level, senior associate, or partner that would hold a such a minor mistake against you is not only an asshole but also a hypocrite.

Now if you’re like doing malpractice, I can’t help you with that. But forgetting to attach a redline or scheduling a meeting super early in the morning, or some other very fixable mistake is usually NOT that deep and any person worth working with will cut you some slack until you get your bearings.

If you’re at a free market firm, you don’t have to work for those types of people. Find people you like, who instill and inspire confidence in you, and whose work and communication styles match your own then go from there. Teach assholes a lesson.

If your work is centrally staffed, have a conversation with your staffing manager/practice group manager/whatever department it is in your firm that keeps conversations confidential, and tell them you want to try a different type of work or that you’ve been wanting to work with someone else. They should try their best to accommodate you.

Remember, you are not alone. Mistakes--even seemingly obvious ones--are VERY common at this stage. And you just have to get through at least a year so another job will take you seriously when you try to leave lol

[biglawwoes]

Update as of 01/01/2024:

Northwestern

Georgetown (still T14 in our hearts)

Chicago = Duke

Yale

Harvard

NYU = UCLA

Penn

Columbia

T14 Law Schools Based on the People I've Met Who Go There

Northwestern

Georgetown

Stanford = Chicago

Yale

Duke = Harvard

Cornell

NYU

Columbia

Penn

Haven't met anyone from Mich, Berkeley or UVA.

[biglawwoes]

Oooooh let me update this with the new classes in mind

1. Berkeley

2. UVA

3. Northwestern

4. Chicago

5. Yale

6. Harvard = Duke

8. UCLA = UMich

9. Columbia = NYU

10. Stanford

11. Penn

T14 Law Schools Based on the People I've Met Who Go There

Northwestern

Georgetown

Stanford = Chicago

Yale

Duke = Harvard

Cornell

NYU

Columbia

Penn

Haven't met anyone from Mich, Berkeley or UVA.

[biglawwoes]

If you are a future law student, do know that

affinity groups are cliques.

you will figure out how to do law school in a way that best suits you.

big law is easy to snag from a T14. Not just more acceptable, but straight up EASY to snag. Source: 2Ls at a certain blue law school that got TOP big law in certain regions despite having HORRIBLE personalities lol and most likely bottom of the barrel grades.

[biglawwoes]

The Hottest Take: Working With Weirdos

Damn near all lawyers at certain firms are socially awkward, insecure nerds. No, I'm not including myself, and no, this is not a biased take. I've worked at a V20 with extremely normal, well-adjusted lawyers.

I worked at a V10 where few people knew how to carry on a human conversation. In fact, those lawyers were, on average, more passive-aggressive, more socially inappropriate, less friendly overall, overly attached to the firm and their work as an extension of their identity, far up their firm's ass, completely unreceptive to any human interaction that required them to be their actual selves, and did I mention obsessed with the firm and their jobs?

Like these people couldn't even conceive of the idea that they could be themselves at work. It was weird. And I say this as a person who understands that some people prefer to come to work, be a ghost, and go home. In fact, that's perfectly fine. The problem becomes when those people volunteer to interact with new lawyers/summers, make themselves available for social activities, open the door for folks to confide in them, etc. If you're gonna do all that then don't act like your separation between work and outside of work is so precious and delicate.

And to the folks who say "it's just work/a job, not real life/don't take it seriously," etc., you sound like a sociopath. We spend 60%+ of our waking hours at work. If you're faking your personality 60%+ of your life, you need to investigate whether you're still faking it. And if you think emotions don't get involved when you're spending, again, 60%+ of your time around the same few people, I've got a bridge to sell you. The only people who truly can separate themselves from work and truly treat it like a job are the ghosts who might stop by to discuss WORK with you. Those who ask anything beyond actual work but then making the argument about how work is separate from outside of work, are being disingenuous.

You are not the ghost you want to be when you actively put yourself in a position to support young lawyers. That said, though, there is a way to be more active/involved and not give away your personality that you've cultivated outside of work. That is when you are clear about the nature of an interaction and set boundaries vocally. Instead of inviting that young lawyer in your office to discuss why they look so stressed/sad/etc. on emotional terms, tell them you feel bad for them but you can't handle that and point them in the direction of a more appropriate resource. If you see a young lawyer that you don't particularly care for, don't start conversations with them and then awkwardly try to back out of something you started. Be clear that you're just saying hi, don't ask any further questions, and move on. Or, if you find they're sticking around, let them know that it's nice of them to ask about you (or whatever is happening), but that you have other things you want to focus on and would prefer them to leave.

The key is to not be an asshole, don't pull away suddenly without explanation once you've opened the door, and don't invite interaction you don't want. I thought this was a simple concept, but I guess not.

[biglawwoes]

Update as of 05/26/2023:

Northwestern

Georgetown (still T14 in our hearts)

Stanford = Chicago

Duke = Harvard

Yale

Cornell

NYU

Columbia

Penn

UCLA

T14 Law Schools Based on the People I've Met Who Go There

Northwestern

Georgetown

Stanford = Chicago

Yale

Duke = Harvard

Cornell

NYU

Columbia

Penn

Haven't met anyone from Mich, Berkeley or UVA.

[biglawwoes]

BigLawyers have got to stop romanticizing CS/Engineering & Finance jobs

Particularly CS at FAANG and banking.

The top earners in CS earn less than the lowest earners in BL. The lowest-tiers of I-Banking work way more than the most-productive tiers in BigLaw. None of these jobs are walks in the park and, for the ones that are, the pay is commiserate with the WLB.

Nothing wrong with having a passion for coding/programming or finance (which, LOL), but the grass isn't greener.

Of the highest earners in each high-earning field (Bankers at bulge bracket banks, CS/engineers at FAANG, specialist doctors, and BigLawyers), BigLawyers have a decent combination of pay, hours, perks, impact, job security, and prestige (if you care about that sort of thing). In each of the categories, respectively:

Base Comp at each level: BigLawyers = Bankers at BBs > Specialists >> CS/Engineers at FAANG

Total Comp: Bankers at BBs > BigLawyers > Specialists >> CS/Engineers at FAANG

Hours: CS/Engineers at FAANG >> Specialists = BigLawyers >>>> Bankers at BBs

Perks: BigLawyers = Bankers at BBs > CS/Engineers at FAANG >>>>>>>> Specialists

Job Security: Specialists >> BigLawyers >> CS/Engineers at FAANG = Bankers at BBs

Impact: Specialists >> BigLawyers >>>>> CS/Engineers at FAANG >>>> Bankers at BBs

If you're a current law student and don't like/want to do BigLaw, fine. But if you do have a strong interest, stop comparing your line of work to other career paths. If BigLaw can be a reality for you, you're in a good position for success.

[biglawwoes]

[biglawwoes]

The Best Law Schools for Different Markets

by most to least likely to get the best V100 Big Law firms in the stated region. This is based on having optimal grades at each school.

Bay Area (including SF, SV, PA)

Stanford

Yale

Harvard

Berkeley

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

UCLA

USC

The other T50 UCs in no particular order

Boston

Harvard, Yale

Stanford

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

BU

BC

Chicago

UChicago, Yale

Harvard

Northwestern

Michigan

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

Notre Dame

Other midwestern T50s in no particular order

D.C.

Harvard, Yale

Stanford, UChi

UVA, Columbia

Duke, Georgetown

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

Howard

Los Angeles

Stanford

Yale

Harvard

Berkeley

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

UCLA, USC

The other LA-area T50s in no particular order

New York

Any law school with students

Texas

Yale, Harvard

Stanford

Duke

UT Austin

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

Vandy

SMU

Southern T50s

Texas T100s

The "South", generally (including ATL, Miami, Charlotte, and other non-TX Southern regional powerhouses)

Yale, Harvard

Duke, UVA

Georgetown

The rest of the T14 in no particular order

Vandy

UNC Chapel Hill

Southern T50s

[biglawwoes]

BigLaw Firm Impressions (by office)

This is based purely on individual experiences either interacting with the lawyers, working at the firm, or attending presentations from the firm. I won't be indicating which is which. Some won't be office-specific. Nothing here is meant to assert as truth something that isn't and it's based purely on personal opinions. Lists are in alphabetical order.

Best Impressions

Akin Gump (NY) - Youthful, fun energy. Get the sense that they're a forward-thinking/progressive office.

Cravath (NY) - Very polite, professional energy. The vibe is that everyone is there to work but will be very kind along the way.

Davis Polk (NY) - Kind of socially awkward vibe but still nice. They go dutch lmao.

Fried, Frank (NY) - Very gregarious with strong personalities and a bit bro-ey, but it's still welcoming (though most interactions have been with laterals FROM there so maybe that speaks more to the firm culture than anything else).

Gibson Dunn (LA-area) - The most friendly people you will ever meet. It's not just nice, it's supportive and warm.

K&L Gates (DC) - A bit socially awkward but very professional and informative.

McDermott (DC) - Nerdy, kind, and always down for a free meal lmao. Not sure what that says about compensation if attorneys are jumping at any opportunity to eat free though.

Orrick (LA) - Straightforward, confident energy. You get the sense that they've been there, done that, and would much rather be doing anything else than be at work (which is actually more of a good thing than it sounds in this blurb).

Paul Hastings (LA) - Very social vibe but not in the GDC 'let's all be friends' sort of way. People who want to make connections and are not shy about it. Some serious go-getters (guess that can sound a bit social climb-y/fake).

Ropes & Gray (NY) - The most everyday people in BigLaw lol. There's no one personality except that everybody tries to be nice. You definitely get the sense that they work a lot though.

Weil (NY) - Generally nice people but either very outwardly unsure of things or trying to convince you that they are sure of things lmao.

Worst Impressions

Covington - Judgmental, thinks they punch above their numbers but the facts disagree. Quite stuffy and just all around unpleasant.

Katten - Brutally honest and a bit thirsty.

Latham (NY, DC, Chi, LA-area) - While no one personality type prevails, every lawyer I've met from Latham has a few things in common: tries really hard to appear cool/relaxed but fumble the bag immensely, nose in the air because of ranking but literally everyone else knows the truth, overall normal human beings but always seem to have a quiet gunnery/tryhard/hyper-competitive vibe. Also they humblebrag like a mf lol. Idk, it's kinda hard to explain but it's like they want the Cravath prestige with the Quinn Emmanuel culture and it doesn't mesh very well and leaves you feeling awkward (unless you're also that type).

O'Melveny & Myers (LA) - VERY awkward. Like straight up difficult to hold a conversation awkward. They seem nice enough but it's it's so painful to speak with them lmao.

Proskauer (NY) - Bit of an unprofessional vibe and it's not even earned (like Sidley) or due to overt frattyness (like Skadden).

Sidley (DC) - Unprofessional as all hell. The people seem nice enough but they definitely seem chaotic internally.

Simpson Thacher - The most chaotic mess of them all. Straight up unprofessional but tries very hard to pretend it's not. Also, people there are either weird or don't want to be there. So many people straight up tell you they never wanted that firm and are only there because it was the only option/they're in a transition period in their career lmao.

Skadden (NY) - OTT arrogant, know their numbers and flaunt it, lawyers are competitive and standoffish. Feel like they don't have to be kind/accommodating/normal because they're Skadden.

[biglawwoes]

If you're interviewing with BigLaw Firms, please heed these warnings:

Never trust a firm's word on anything/read tea leaves with caution.

Know when a firm seems desperate.

As for Tip #1, only trust what your own common sense, your career counselor, and the lawyers themselves tell you. What I mean by this is two-fold: (1) you can never trust recruiting--their job is to provide the decision-makers with as many candidates from the top schools as possible such that if anything goes awry, they can say "well I scoured the T-14--I did my very best to find the top candidates." (2) your career counselor and your own intuition have no reason to lie to you, and the lawyers themselves are human--they won't say/do things to indicate they like you if they don't.

As for Tip #2, signs a firm is desperate/insecure (and you should run):

Pressuring you to accept an offer they haven't given you. This usually refers to questions like: "if we give you an offer, will you make a decision on it by X time [that is usually arbitrary and well in advance of your school's deadline]?" This can also come in the form of firms harping on how transparent they are (and consequently want you to be) because they "want to know where they stand." This is something I have actually seen happen. It's not a good sign.

Recruiting coordinators constantly asking outright "what can I/we do to get/keep you?" It's one thing to ask once in a less direct way, it's another to pester a rising 2L on this.

Being overly nosey about your other options. I'm talking beyond asking if you have any expiring deadlines/where else you're seriously considering. I mean when a firm seems combative after you've told them where you're considering. I've personally had an experience where a firm asked me my other options and when I told them, they proceeded to bombard me questions about whether the other firms even have X practice area or X office location.

But the biggest red flag always comes in hindsight--when a firm aggressively recruits you but then rejects you after they learn of your other (seemingly better) opportunities. This has happened to so many people I know who told prospective firms of other opportunities (that were usually better in the same market) and, after being overly interested in them, the firm rejects them (probably to protect some other more realistic but less desirable investment). Don't sweat these though--at least you know for future purposes that you're dealing with a firm that might have some instability in the market, thus prompting insecurity. Also, this is not to say don't tell firms where you're interviewing. Do follow the guidance of your career counselor on whether to talk about your other options but conventional wisdom is that you should tell them if asked specifically and you probably shouldn't lie. Think of it this way: you wouldn't want a firm that would reject you because of your other options anyway, so why even omit that info if asked or lie about it?

[biglawwoes]

How to Choose a Law School

First, consider what you want to do. By this, I don't mean granularly, like which practice area. I mean broadly--do you want to save the world, make a lot of money, influence people? Do you want to be Harvey Specter or Annalise Keating? A judge or a politician? This will help narrow down your initial list to only those schools you should absolutely apply to. Here's how I'd break it down generally:

If you want BigLaw, you need to focus on the T-14 or top regional T-20s.

If you want Mid Law/Small Law, the world is your oyster.

If you want government, you need to figure out what type of government. A general rule of thumb is that local government is more region-sensitive while national government (particularly at the agency and court of appeals levels) are more rank-sensitive. Federal Courts of Appeals are packed with T-14 grads.

If you want PI, you need a school with a robust PI recruiting program (and probably lots of clinic/pro bono courses, externship opportunities, organizations, and programs). Rank becomes less of a concern for PI, and passion/history of participation in your particular area matters more.

If you want academia, go to Harvard or Yale. Not saying you can't get academia from any other institution, but a good amount of law professors hale from Harvard and Yale (and to a slightly lesser extent, the rest of the T-14).

If you want national politics, T-14 or bust (really, you don't even need law school). For local politics, law school is almost entirely irrelevant.

Finally, if you want non-firm work at a private company, my only advice to you is to work for the place you want to end up at before law school, get them to pay for your degree, then go to any law school you want (seriously, these jobs are so rare that most will only get them if they already have an in there).

Second, consider where you want to live. Insular markets prefer local people, and going to a law school in an insular market could give you an edge over, say, a Brooklyn Law student striving for Orange County with no ties. You want to also think about Cost of Living, Income tax percentage, as well as the industry/type of work you might be interested in.

Easy Markets: NYC. You need no ties for NYC. Seriously, just have a pulse.

More Difficult Markets: Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington D.C., Texas, and pretty much any big city with a national presence that's not NYC. These are the markets where you will need some significant tie (grew up there, went to undergrad there, spouse/children there, lived there for a good chunk of your adulthood, etc.) These markets tend to be much more litigation-heavy than NYC, but still have a great deal of transactional work.

Most Difficult Markets: Denver, Raleigh, Seattle, etc. Think anywhere either with a lack of a national presence or without any major industry either unique to the area or a notable player in an industry.

Third, how debt-averse are you? Going to a higher ranked school or a private school will likely mean higher tuition. Likewise, going out-of-state can mean higher living expenses. Also note that the stingiest schools are Harvard, Yale and NYU. HY don't give out merit scholarships. NYU is traditionally stingy.

Finally, think about fit. This is a big consideration but is honestly tough to gauge. I recommend reaching out to affinity group members at your desired destination. If you know any lawyers, ask them about their school experience. But truly, the only way you'll get a sense of the environment is to actually be a student there. Still, I can give some things to watch out for when it comes to whether a School is right for you.

And to put a cap on it:

try to avoid schools that aren't ranked

don't attend unaccredited schools

avoid schools with conditional scholarships

don't attend schools with low bar passage rates

be EXTRA careful when looking at schools in California--many or straight up fraudulent

it's an unfortunate truth, but in certain parts of the law (mostly firm work and national government work), prestige is very important--so just be prepared to run into that

diversity in student body is just as important as diversity in faculty. You DO NOT want to accidentally end up with a racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. professor

Professors are important but this is honestly too difficult to gauge without just reaching out and speaking with professors (I don't recommend this though)

think about whether you'll need a car, have to live off-campus, etc. these can affect lifestyle

talk to other people who were admitted into the same school as you. This will give you a good idea of what your cohort might look like and you don't want to be trapped with assholes (this is especially relevant for the schools with smaller class sizes)

[biglawwoes]

T14 Law Schools Based on the People I've Met Who Go There

Northwestern

Georgetown

Stanford = Chicago

Yale

Duke = Harvard

Cornell

NYU

Columbia

Penn

Haven't met anyone from Mich, Berkeley or UVA.

[biglawwoes]

Experiences w/students from T-14 law schools

My worst experiences, hands down, have come from interactions with students from Penn, NYU, and Columbia.

Not sure if it's the inferiority complex from not getting HYS or just the general douchey personality that those schools attract but, my experiences w/these folks have been abysmal.

-------

My best experiences have come from interactions with students from Harvard, Georgetown, and UChicago.

It's kind of ironic actually because you'd think they'd be the assholes given reputation. But in my experience they've been some of the nicest, most down-to-earth, and interesting people to interact with.

-------

Also, just generally some of my worst experiences have been w/those at NY and PA schools while my best experiences have been w/folks at Midwestern and CA schools. Strange.

[biglawwoes]

Big Law Euphemisms

I'm at a V5 = I'm not at Cravath or Wachtell

I'm at an AMLAWX = I'm not at a V20

I'm at an AMLAWX NYC Big Law firm = I'm at Fried Frank

more to come.