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blackeyedlily · 1 year

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Why is it that people believe Dunk to not be a real knight? I can't remember reading it and getting that idea, is there a specific passage that makes people think that Ser Arlan never truly knighted him?

Well, this is what Dunk says about his knighthood:

“He always said he meant for me to be a knight, as he was. When he was dying he called for his longsword and bade me kneel. He touched me once on my right shoulder and once on my left, and said some words, and when I got up he said I was a knight.”

But this seems at odd with what we’ve seen. For one, we were with Dunk as he buried Ser Arlan, and he did not think at all about his new knighthood. In fact, this is what Dunk thought of his prospects:

I could find another hedge knight in need of a squire to tend his animals and clean his mail, he thought, or might be I could go to some city, to Lannisport or King’s Landing, and join the City Watch. Or else …

Would a new-made knight really think about becoming a squire for another hedge knight, or simply joining the City Watch of a large city (a move Dunk presumably could have made on his own without any knighthood training, given his size and strength)? It seems implausible, certainly.

Dunk is also uncomfortable when people bring up his knighthood. This happens with Ashford’s steward at the tourney:

Dunk pulled shut the door. “Are you Plummer the steward? I came for the tourney. To enter the lists.”

Plummer pursed his lips. “My lord’s tourney is a contest for knights. Are you a knight?”

He nodded, wondering if his ears were red.

“A knight with a name, mayhaps?”

“Dunk.” Why had he said that? “Ser Duncan. The Tall.”

Why would he be embarrassed so much that his ears would turn red if he really had been knighted? And why, when questioned, does he first answer not with “Ser”, but with his own plain “Dunk”?

It’s the same nervous reaction he has when commanded to knight young Fossoway:

“Knight me.” Raymun put a hand on Dunk’s shoulder and turned him. “I will take my cousin’s place. Ser Duncan, knight me.” He went to one knee.

Frowning, Dunk moved a hand to the hilt of his longsword, then hesitated. “Raymun, I… I should not.”

“You must. Without me, you are only five.”

“The lad has the truth of it,” said Ser Lyonel Baratheon. “Do it, Ser Duncan. Any knight can make a knight.”

“Do you doubt my courage?” Raymun asked.

“No,” said Dunk. “Not that, but…” Still he hesitated.

A fanfare of trumpets cut the misty morning air. Egg came running up to them. “Ser, Lord Ashford summons you.”

The Laughing Storm gave an impatient shake of the head. “Go to him, Ser Duncan. I’ll give squire Raymun his knighthood.” He slid his sword out of his sheath and shouldered Dunk aside. “Raymun of House Fossoway,” he began solemnly, touching the blade to the squire’s right shoulder, “in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave.” The sword moved from his right shoulder to his left. “In the name of the Father I charge you to be just.” Back to the right. “In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent.” The left. “In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women.”

Dunk left them there, feeling as relieved as he was guilty.

I think that last line is most telling. Why would Dunk feel both relieved and guilty? What was keeping him from knighting Raymun?

Likewise, look how Dunk reacts when questioned by Lady Webber:

“A hedge knight named Ser Arlan of Pennytree took me on to squire for him when I was just a boy. He taught me chivalry and the arts of war.”

“And this same Ser Arlan knighted you?”

Dunk shuffled his feet. One of his boots was half unlaced, he saw. “No one else was like to do it.”

Dunk is clearly uncomfortable after she asks the pointed question - shuffling his feet, paying more attention to his boots than the lady - and when he answers, it’s evasive at best.

There’s also this curious thought of Dunk’s, when Egg confesses why he hid his identity:

He lowered his eyes. “I didn’t care if Daeron fought or not, but I wanted to be somebody’s squire. I’m sorry, ser. I truly am.”

Dunk looked at him thoughtfully. He knew what it was like to want something so badly that you would tell a monstrous lie just to get near it.

When has Dunk told a “monstrous lie”? He’s never recounted anything in his past that involved a monstrous lie. The only real possibility, especially given the other evidence, is that he lied about being a knight, because he so wanted to be one.

So, while I wouldn’t call it obvious Dunk was never knighted, I think GRRM has strongly hinted to the same.

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blackeyedlily · 1 year

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If the theory that Dunk had a kid with Daella or Rhae is true, then the personal implications for Dunk are staggering (and for the other characters too, but Dunk’s the one I’m the most invested in as we know what kind of person he is and have an idea of how his life turns out). (TBC)

(Continuation) If their sexual relations were consensual, as I’m certain they would have been, he might not feel guilt that they happened, but Daella/Rhae is the one who’d have had to take the brunt of the consequences of their actions. If she got pregnant before marriage, she’d have had to face her father’s anger alone and get married off quickly. Admitting that he’s the father wouldn’t have helped and only would have resulted in his death. (TBC)

(Contination) If they’d slept together on the eve of her wedding, then they’d both wonder if her subsequent pregnancy was a result of their night together and there’d always be the chance that someone who doesn’t like her or wants to contest the succession might look at her adult child and remark that the only time they’d seen someone that tall was when that knight who was always hanging around the prince escorted their lady to Tarth. (TBC)

(Continuation) The kingsguard aren’t exactly anonymous and Dunk has a very striking physical trait. And, of course there’s the fact that Dunk now has a kid who will never know that he’s his dad. (TBC)

(Continuation) And there’s the fact that this was the result of a relationship between a knight of the Kingsguard and a Targ princess, which is most definitely taboo. Even if Dunk wasn’t part of the kingsguard at that point, how would he feel about wearing a white cloak in the future after what he did? And what would it mean for his friendship with Egg? Even if Egg was super understanding about all of this, Dunk still complicated his sister’s life a lot. (TBC)

(Continuation) And, even if Egg never finds out, would Dunk still feel guilty? I don’t know, I can’t stop thinking about this. What do you think? Do you think I’m making too much of it? (So sorry about the length of this, it was way longer than I thought it would be)

Oh no, I don't think you're making too much of this at all! Far from it, in fact - I would be frankly shocked if GRRM did not use this relationship as an opportunity to both continue Dunk's characterization (and Daella's!) and explore a number of themes he has already shown himself partial to in the main novels. (Long, more under the cut.)

As a beginning note, I think it is important to include details of my own theory about where the Dunk-Daella story is going as I talk about themes GRRM may explore, since that theory necessarily informs how I think GRRM will tackle the themes therein (and because I've somewhat changed my feelings on how the relationship will be portrayed over the years). I don't at all claim to be absolutely right or that GRRM will 100% do everything (or, indeed, anything) I suggest here, but this is my theory and I'm going with it.

So first, I tend to think that Dunk will get his white cloak during the Third Blackfyre Rebellion. Not only does this seem like a practical opportunity to do so - if the Third Blackfyre Rebellion was a major civil war, as it seems to have been, then there's a fairly decent chance that, as with other major Westerosi civil wars (e.g. the Dance of the Dragons, Robert's Rebellion), one or more Kingsguard knights might die - but I think Dunk receiving his cloak then could be a nice three-step payoff on his knighthood journey as paralleled in the Blackfyre Rebellions. Dunk's path to knighthood began during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, though he himself did not know it at the time, because Arlan's squire Roger died at the Redgrass Field; as Dunk thinks in "The Sworn Sword", had there never been a First Blackfyre Rebellion, "Roger of Pennytree might be alive today" as "a knight someplace, a truer knight than me", while Dunk "would have ended on the gallows, or been sent off to the Night's Watch to walk the Wall until I died". In the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk had been offered arguably the highest promotion a Westerosi knight can get, with Daemon the Younger Blackfyre revealing his prophetic vision of Dunk in a white cloak and suggesting Dunk become one of his Kingsguard knights; however, Dunk had refused, instead helping (albeit somewhat unwittingly) unravel the Blackfyre conspiracy. Now, in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, Dunk could receive a true Kingsguard promotion, the ultimate acknowledgement of his (supposed) knighthood as well as his devotion to Egg, a prince and future king.

Already this is an interesting setup for a future romantic/sexual relationship between Dunk and Daella. Dunk had certainly idolized both knighthood in general and the Kingsguard in particular growing up (especially after being taken on by Ser Arlan), but he had also recognized that the Kingsguard swear themselves to celibacy; he had even teased Egg about the boy's goal of joining the Kingsguard, saying that "[t]hat's a noble thing, but when you're older you may find you'd sooner have a girl than a white cloak". Nor has Dunk been immune to a desire for both sexual relations and a romantic relationship: when Daemon the Younger offered him a place in his Kingsguard, Dunk thought that "I might find Tanselle again someday. Why shouldn't I have a wife, and sons?" (and indeed, he and Egg traveled the breadth of Dorne looking for Tanselle, without success), while his dreams about Rohanne Webber (both at Coldmoat and at Whitewalls) and his kiss with her at the end of "The Sworn Sword" convey his obvious desire for her. (Indeed, it is even possible that Dunk may have had some sexual experience by the time he fought in the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and, perhaps, got a white cloak, depending on how far that kiss Bran saw between Dunk and an unknown girl went, since the story for now called "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" will of course take place before the Third Blackfyre Rebellion.) Dunk may therefore struggle quite a bit internally before accepting a white cloak, balancing his honor at being selected to be among (at least ostensibly) the greatest knights in Westeros and his deep devotion to Egg with his personal desire to marry and father children (with Tanselle or anyone else). The author can potentially draw a very compelling thematic contrast here between Dunk and both Jon (whose deep shame at the (supposed) circumstances of his conception and birth help motivate him toward joining the similarly celibate Night's Watch) and Jaime (who joined the Kingsguard precisely because of his ongoing sexual relationship with Cersei, believing (somewhat incorrectly, at least at the time) that by doing so he could both avoid having to marry and have sex with Lysa Tully and could be by her, Cersei's, side at court permanently).

Shortly after the Third Blackfyre Rebellion ends, I think, Egg will marry Betha Blackwood in secret. The timing is already known - the Third Blackfyre Rebellion occurs in 219 AC, while Egg and Betha wed in 220 AC - and I would not at all be surprised if the experiences of the war and/or its aftermath prompted Egg to make his move. Perhaps Egg, having experience real battle for probably the first time, will feel that he had come too close to death to put off marrying his love, and will not want to take the chance that he might die without ever being with her; perhaps the royal government and/or Maekar, wanting to shore up a dynasty which was sorely lacking legitimate heirs of the next generation, will put pressure on Egg and Daeron to marry their respective fiancées (with Aerion perhaps being less a focus for dynastic propagation given his vaguely sinister "actions" during the war). Either way, I think that Egg will decide that he will wait no longer to marry Betha - and that Dunk, his closest companion, will help him do it.

Of course, I also think that Egg was betrothed to Daella (given his comment that his sister Rhae once poured a “love potion” in his drink “so I’d marry her instead of my sister Daella"), which will leave quite a problem for Daella. This is when I think Maekar and/or Aerys I's government may arrange a marriage for Daella, to smooth over the potential scandal of a royal princess being jilted by her similarly royal betrothed for a "mere" aristocrat, and turn to (presumably) Lord Tarth - because he is available, because he is willing (like, say, Eldon Estermont with young Sylva Santagar), because Maekar thinks it wise to shore up the realm's eastern defenses with a royal alliance with Tarth (after all, it had been Tarth that Myrish pirates had invaded during the reign of Jaehaerys I), for any or none of these reasons. In a patriarchal society, Daella may if not probably will have little to no say on her marital fate; her husband will be whomever her father and/or her uncle's government decide on for her. Importantly, I tend to think Maekar will decide to split up Dunk and Egg at this moment: since they had both defied him, but neither so much as to warrant severe punishment, perhaps Maekar will think it would be good for both of them to separately (emphasis on separately) remember what their respective responsibilities are - Egg with him as a dutiful royal son in the capital, Dunk with Daella as a Kingsguard sworn shield to a royal princess.

This is where I think the romance of Dunk and Daella comes in, and where GRRM could really start delving into some of his favorite ASOIAF themes. For one, GRRM loves playing with the tropes of chivalric romance, and I don't think you could get a more perfect setup for a chivalric romance than this story with Dunk and Daella. The relationship is one between a princess of much higher rank than her knight (and you don't get much greater a distance in rank than from daughter of the king or soon-to-be king and a knight born in the slums of Flea Bottom - among the reasons I don't think they married) and a dashing, valorous knight in service to her. Like the story of Tristan and Isolde, Dunk is sent to escort this princess to her betrothed (not from the Emerald Isle of Ireland to the mainland, as in the tale, but from the mainland to the Sapphire Isle of Tarth). Their love is adulterous and impossible, but, perhaps, continues because of its devotion and passion, trapping the three (Daella, Dunk, and Lord Tarth) in a doomed triangle of love and service: Daella is wed to Lord Tarth but loves Dunk, Dunk has pledged himself to the service of Daella as Lady Tarth (and so by extension her lord husband) while engaging in a sexual relationship with his bride, and Lord Tarth, perhaps, cares for Daella and/or Dunk (at least with the latter, Evenfall Hall hung onto Dunk's shield into the present day, suggesting some ending on good terms between Dunk and House Tarth) while having both engage in an affair with one another in his home. This is a unique chance for GRRM to tell the story of the chivalric romance from the point of view of the knight-protagonist; instead of observing the tropes from a distance (as with, say, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna) or altering the conventions (as with, say, Brienne, whose story embodies some chivalric romance tropes while twisting others), we can be inside the knight's head as he engages in this doomed affair with his lady love.

For another, GRRM also adores exploring the theme of duty versus love, as well as (and sometimes relatedly) forcing characters to choose between competing, mutually exclusive vows and/or responsibilities. Indeed, Aemon's own theory as to why the Night's Watch (on whose vows those of the Kingsguard were modeled) forbids its members from taking wives or fathering children directly cites the danger of love as a force to tempt men away from their duty (which is why I tend to think Aemon's unknown first trial had to do with falling in love but rejecting this love in favor of his maester's vows). Dunk would have just taken his vows of the Kingsguard, knowing that by doing so he would be obliged to live a celibate life; how could he then break that vow, and with no less than the king's (or soon-to-be king's) own daughter? Would he remember the Kingsguard before him who did the same - not only the historical examples of Lucamore Strong (who had been gelded and sent to the Wall for his simultaneous sexual affairs) and Criston Cole (who had (at least by some tellings) begged Princess Rhaenyra to engage in an affair with him), but the more recent (for Dunk) stories of Terence Toyne (who had been killed by the orders of Aegon IV for sleeping with Bethany Bracken, herself executed) and Aemon the Dragonknight (who among Blackfyre loyalists was the true father of Daeron "Falseborn", the propaganda Dunk had heard firsthand from Eustace Osgrey)? Yet could he ignore the love of Egg's own sister for him when he himself had just assisted Egg in marrying for love? What could he say to Daella - "yes, I helped Egg break his betrothal promise to you for the sake of his love for Betha, but no, I will not help you break your promise of marriage to Lord Tarth when you are in love with me?" Between the love of Daella for Dunk - a mutual one, I would guess - and the duty he had sworn to as a new-made Kingsguard, which one would win out in Dunk's heart? (No prizes for guessing, given Brienne's existence, after all.) With the way GRRM has written on this theme before - look at Jon's emotional struggle over his relationship with Ygritte, or Arys Oakheart's shame over his affair with Arianne - I fully expect he'd take the chance to delve into it again with Dunk - only this time a true knight (unlike reprehensible Arys) really emotionally invested in the other person, kept from a publicly legitimate relationship with her by vows they both would have been aware of (without the added secrecy of Jon's Night's Watch mission, which he of course could not reveal to Ygritte).

Nor does GRRM ignore the theme of secret keeping in his writing, characters hiding the truth even from those closest to the secret keepers for the sake of the secrets' beneficiaries. Indeed, this is at the very heart of Dunk's story: Dunk has repeatedly, deliberately concealed the fact that Ser Arlan never actually knighted him, falsely claiming the public distinction of knighthood while living the spirit and principles of true knighthood. While I don't tend to think it will be obvious that Daella's child was fathered by Dunk - again, Brienne is a direct descendant of Dunk without apparently knowing it, and no one has yet called the current Tarths bastards or cited any illegitimate ancestry - I do think that both Daella and Dunk will be aware that this is their child, and not the child of Lord Tarth. Both would now have a secret to keep from the world: to preserve both their lives and the life of their child, they could never let the world know that this was, in fact, a child born of a passionate affair between them. Consider Ned's emotional turmoil over the secret of Jon - how much it pained him to keep this from Catelyn while recognizing the necessity of doing so, and how Catelyn in turn suffered because of Ned's bullying over her asking him about it and his subsequent silence on the matter, and I think you might get an idea of how the internal struggle could go for Dunk. Just as Ned (I think correctly) decided that telling Catelyn would put Catelyn in the impossible position of deciding between abetting Ned's treason by shielding Jon or denouncing the treason (and thus consigning both Jon and Ned to death) to protect her children, so Dunk may think that telling Egg would put Egg in an impossible position: either Egg would have to denounce Dunk - and so watch his friend be gelded and sent to the Wall, his sister be perhaps forced into religious seclusion (if not herself in danger of being executed for a politically dangerous form of adultery), and his baby nephew (I tend to assume nephew) being declared a bastard, with at best an uncertain future - or he would need to protect his friend's scandalous, indeed criminal conduct, putting himself in danger should it be revealed that he knew about it. Dunk did not romantically love Egg as Ned and Catelyn loved each other, but theirs was clearly a long and deep friendship, so I'm sure GRRM could have a field day with twisting the screws on that friendship, the secret Dunk could never reveal for the sake of their closeness.

On top of all of this, moreover, is the child himself (and again, I tend to assume their child would be a boy because patriarchal Westeros is going to patriarchy and the typical (non-Dornish) Westerosi power structure goes from males, through males, to males). Dunk had, after all, thought of sons as well as a wife in turning down Daemon, and Aemon had asked Jon, in the context of their conversation on duty versus love, "What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms[?]". Likewise, while he had never known his own parents - guessing that his mother had been "some whore or tavern girl" whom his birth had killed and his father "some thief or cutpurse" who had been hanged or sent to the Wall - Dunk had nevertheless romanticized finding his father, begging to go north with Ser Arlan because if he "could only reach the Wall, might be I'd come on some old man, a real tall man who looked like me". How would Dunk feel, then, to know that he had fathered a child, to know that a child had been born out of love between himself and Daella - and yet know that he could never hold this child, nor claim him as his own, if he wanted him, Daella, and the child to keep their necks? While the circumstances of his child's birth could not have been more different than Dunk's own - born the child of a great knight and a princess, in an ancient castle, with the name of a supremely blue-blooded family - Dunk would be condemning this child to grow up as he had grown up, never knowing his father nor ever being able to find him. Think of the way GRRM has explored this topic with Jaime - how throughout the end of ASOS and in AFFC Jaime is grappling with his complete lack of paternal relationship with his own children, thanks in part to the circumstances of their conception and upbringing - and I think there might be an idea of how the author will tackle this from Dunk's point of view. To protect his child, Dunk could never call him his child; whatever love he bore for him would always have to be secret, but it could never be erased completely (no more than Ned's love for Jon, despite publicly proclaiming the opposite of Dunk - that is, that this boy, actually no son of his, was his bastard).

(The child's conception and birth also brings up the question of bastardy, although that may be a less pressing point. After all, Dunk took a rather calm view of his own probably bastardy - coolly explaining, when Egg haughtily parroted Westerosi aristocratic an religious prejudices against bastards, how he himself had likely been born out of wedlock - which may in turn leave him less concerned about his child's legal illegitimacy. Still, it's entirely possible that Dunk would have lingering feelings of guilt over this child, less because of social prejudice against bastards and more because of his part in interrupting the Tarth dynasty. Dunk had both witnessed and participated in the ongoing aftermath of Aegon IV's fathering many bastards, "the bane of the Seven Kingdoms" as Dunk thinks; now he himself was helping father a bastard for House Tarth, to claim the family title without right to it.)

Now, of course, the classic (consummated) chivalric romance is a doomed one, which does not promise happiness for either Dunk or Daella in the scenario I've envisioned. Because Dunk lived to an old (by Westerosi standards) age and only died at Summerhall, still apparently an honored member and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, we can guess he didn't succumb to any of the horrible and/or tragic fates usually awaiting the knights of chivalric romance. Less can be said about Daella, because she doesn't so much disappear from the narrative as is barely in it to begin with; what happens to her is as mysterious as any other part she has to play in the story. (This is not an invitation for GRRM to kill her off in childbirth, which he often likes to do as an easy answer for getting rid of female characters.) It therefore seems unlikely that GRRM will follow specific beats of some of the more famous chivalric romances for their fates (no attempted burning at the stake for Daella, then, and no death by grief for Dunk). So I tend to think the separation will be less dramatic and more personal, with one or both of them realizing that they cannot be together forever, either on their own or through external circumstances (like, say, Dunk being recalled to the capital). Perhaps it will be something along the lines of, say, the ending of "The Sworn Sword", the most romantic so far of the Tales, with both parties desiring to be with each other but aware of the impassable gulf of rank and position between them.

So all of this is to say that there is a lot here for GRRM to explore in terms of theme and characterization. As @warsofasoiaf has correctly noted, GRRM seems to enjoy using the individual Tales as his takes on specific pieces or genres ("The Hedge Knight" as a sort of medieval tournament fantasy a la Ivanhoe, "The Sworn Sword" as a Western, "The Mystery Knight" as a sort of crime thriller a la North by Northwest; I could also see "The Village Hero" being a sort of riff on Seven Samurai/The Magnificent Seven, though I haven't yet decided what genre whatever "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" will be called will be). It makes sense to me, therefore, that one of these stories would be his take on a chivalric romance in the style of Tristan and Isolde or Lancelot and Guinevere, with all (or many) of the trappings of the genre but told through the uniquely personal touch GRRM's masterful handling of POV style provides.

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