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blossomsofchaos · 12 hours ago

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Trying to flesh out something about the Nie and the need for balance as something misperceived as justice (regardless of the askers intent) due to the status of the person asking for it. But that doesn't make it true.

NMJs refusal of explanations and the insistence that decisions made in bad circumstances are still bad decisions and his unwillingness to let go of anger over particular slights despite actually stopping in his tracks when given an explanation he's had time to process. Has to do with his dad multiple ways.

In particular it's important that his source of resentment isn't (fully, mainly, I mean he is pissed his dad died but) "dead dad" it's actually "nobody will admit my dad was murdered", nobody will admit to doing anything wrong, nobody will admit to having wronged me, even if I understand that they can't stand up against WRH, because I'm a sect leader and I can't either, I just wish they'd explicitly admit to me that that's the case, that they see that harm was done and would have liked to prevent it but cannot due to other responsibilities, which I am also beholden to and aware of.

But you see how his canonical life's greatest regret makes him really upset by explanations without apologies right? Why he'd demand an admission of wrongdoing beyond reason and not even because he's going to do anything with it, he just needs it, he cannot keep being told why bad things are necessary, he knows that, but does that make it okay? (Baxia: FUCK NO).

But that would make every wrong done to him okay, something people demand he forgive, and he doesn't want to! He can't! (And that'd be betraying his father and his sect so. He really really can't).

(NMJ also thinks being the primary cause of harm especially where the harm done is murder. Should be considered being responsible for that harm. But people keep getting off on technicalities, and he hates that. He can't let it keep happening. It keeps happening. )

Except when he gets so angry that he applies the same standards he holds himself to (usually stricter than others, on account of, the death thing) to others. This could be a whole other post but for example WQ. But even then. He's so caught up in "they must admit a wrong was done" that he's loosing sight of what will happen if they do that, if people like WQ or JGY admit to doing anything wrong, he's not fully thinking through what would happen, that it might be unfair to them because of who they are, or he is but doesn't care because wrongdoing must be admitted to

And if a system is unjust and therefore you can't fairly subject people to it. What's the answer? Avoiding the system entirely means making himself the judge, and, NMJ sir slippery slope argument saw his family deteriorate into madness and has has his judgement of JGY in particular proven wildly off base. Maybe. Correctly. Does not feel like that's a good idea. So. Uh. Keep the system but try to make it better? (Easier said than done). Oh wait that's the thing he's been trying to do since the beginning of the book. Since before MY shows up even. Not that it's working but.

And then. Oh an emotional level he needs people to admit to harm explicitly before he can move forward - because if having a good enough explanation makes something okay by default, that has a lot of very personal implications for him. (Not caring for explanations goes both ways). And not just his dad's murder here but specifically. His murder? His death? Is it okay to give a baby a saber? In a pinch you can hand off a cursed object to any baby but you shouldnt - RIGHT? Even if the curse will kill you if you don't??? RIGHT? "If "no other choice" makes it okay. Well. Then what's been done to him is fine too. (I don't think he fully knows how he feels about that. Ignoring the question in favor of fanatically throwing himself into other tasks is not actually "I've resolved the inner conflict" lol). He definitely feels like handing the curse off to Huaisang the next available baby is not excusable it's still causing harm but then what does he do he can't he has to eventually fuck -

And JGY is assuming (because this is how it usually works for him) that NMJ wants him to admit to wrongdoing so that he can punish him for it but we don't ever actually see that because he doesn't admit it ever. All we actually know is that NMJ wants JGY to admit that killing people, even when you feel you have to, is bad.

We do not know if NMJ wants to punish JGY for his wrongs. Specifically, his wrongs against others. Wherein NMJ becomes an enactor of justice at large, using his authority to ensure justice, rather than someone taking personal revenge or balancing a wrong against his people. Which especially for NMJ, is basically the same thing. But neither of those are "I am ensuring justice in general, where I have no authority, I think my judgement can be trusted to that extent that I feel comfortable doing this". Nooooo.

Because NMJ only explicitly decides to kill JGY when

- he tricked NMJ (hurt him)

- killed his men, people under him, explicitly, their lives were his responsibility and he has a right to avenge them

- is a threat to the world at large (and this is after he's deteriorated the farthest). Specifically . One that LXC at least (and the Jin, who he thinks of as defending bad people, getting them out of jail to do more harm, and he's not,,,,, wrong) will defend him even if he does become a threat. And! He sees himself as responsible for giving JGY this power by recommending him to begin with, by sending him off with a letter, hence drawing an explicit parallel to JGYs responsibility for XYs behavior because he recommended him into the sect.

Still. In the last bullet point the motive is still "kill him so that we can rest, so that he will definitely cause no further harm, because all my attempts to ascertain this other ways have failed" and not "retributive punishment against JGY". Against the Wen, against XY maybe. But again with those, he says "blood with blood". A desire for personal revenge is not a belief in punishment as justice more broadly.

So. No. NMJs primary motivation isn't actually punishing JGY for crimes. He does not have that authority. He will not do that. Doesn't want to.

Which is why he's so insistent on JGY turning himself in to the Jin. To his father, the person who does have the authority to judge him. He can't let him run free. That's not safe. That's trusting his personal judgement (MY probably won't run off and kill more people, it's fine to let him go if I personally want to) in a situation where hes just been shown that he cannot trust his own judgement, especially in regards to MY being truthful or being capable of murder. Why the fuck would he then? That would be wildly irresponsible.

Also a direct challenge to the Jin's authority if it was ever discovered. The point is, NMJ isn't judging JGY on a non-personal level. He actually. Explicitly refuses to do so, especially to act on anything he does feel, because that'd be a betrayal of his responsibility.

But! He doesn't even intend for MY to be punished THEN. because turning himself in = punishment for sure, is actually something MY says. NMJ just says his intention is for MY to "turn over a new leaf" which doesn't sound very "I want you to die" and he explicitly says that if MY is telling the truth, he will not be killed for this.

Which either means he's being extremely oblivious about the legal system or how the Jin will treat MY, or, he's saying "you will not be killed if everything you say is true" (this is a promise). He doesn't say the second part out loud, but why would he? He's Nie Zongzhu. His word is truth. It is law. It is a guarantee and he will make it be true or die trying.

He's missing MYs circumstances and the need to make this promise if it is one, explicit. But he isn't planning for MY to be sent off to be executed. He says as much. Repeatedly. Why would he lie about that.

And even if he's being oblivious and it's just "pfft no you won't". He's. Literally just seen how JGS treats his son. First hand. JGS just lied to his face. NMJ. Did not believe him, and took this as indication of JGSs unfair dishonest nature. And now MY just told him he's being mistreated by the Jin, which NMJ never says he disbelieves, doesn't even say anything that could be taken as such initially. Given that he knows how MY was treated by the Nie soldiers, and knows the Jin are shady af, he has no reason to disbelieve MY on that front. Even at the end, it's a wary indication that he isn't sure enough (and why would he be) to say "I know your words are true" so he just says "You won't be killed for this" and then "if what you say is true, you won't be executed". Like. Okay so you're heavily considering that what he says is true and want him to come with you and talk more. You could just kill him. Nobody would stop you. You'd be seen as justified. Why are you trying to get him to come with you, do you care about the truth or something? Care about MY?

And then. JGY. has always been told he's inherently bad and admitting to having autonomy is dangerous and admitting to making a choice to harm people to deciding that is necessary (worst of all . Necessary to protect himself, someone w/no inherent worth, rather the opposite, who deserves to be hurt and is wrong for trying to prevent this explicitly) so even if he actually agrees with NMJ (what he did was bad, he wouldn't do it if he didn't have to, he does like it) he cannot admit it, he cannot fucking do that.

And NMJ in his arguments focuses almost exclusively on a need to protect people from further harm, or, specifically in regards to JGY, his unwillingness to admit to having done anything wrong. In favor of "having no choice". Because "I had no choice" doesn't actually clarify what you would do if you had a choice, if you were given one, if I were to protect you from consequences and a world that limits your choices, what would you do then?

But if you can't offer that explicitly, don't feel safe offering it and are demonstrably opposed to JGY doing things because he "owes" you gratitude for promoting him, what would you do? Idk. Maybe. Try and figure out how he feels about what he did, yes, even though he had to do it, maybe, but can you trust him, but the point is, do you regret it - and JGY will not fucking tell him!! Ever! (And some of this is intentional see above. Some of it's also that JGY doesn't know if he regrets it and he cannot and see this post).

And. This is kinda what I mean when I say they're having a philosophical argument but also a personal one? And they each flip flop between both but never at the same time. And NMJ is mainly making a personal argument (you need to apologize to me and actually admit to wrongdoing so that I can trust you again, before I can't do that until I know you actually think the things you had to do due to circumstance are BAD, and therefore, now without the circumstances, you would not repeat them again/you don't think they're okay to do generally, please say this explicitly so I can trust you because I want to) vs JGY who is primarily making a philosophical argument because that's what he's used to and that's explicitly what he thinks NMJ is doing to him

Which is why he keeps asking philosophical questions and arguing for the necessity of the greater good and NMJ won't answer him huh I wonder why and then. AND THEN.

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