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Ive been theorizing that the roaring knight is a combined form not unlike the mech we form to fight queen. And one component might be something like a neo suit. Because looking at what it looks like before spamton inhabits it, that one sprite where the knight lets its hands hang and drops liquid (blood?) is eerily similar in design.

Toby is great at foreshadowing, it might be his biggest strength. And hes not a one time pony. He reuses gimmiks and adds twists and turns.

So ive been looking at what we "learn" each chapter gameplay wise. And in chapter 2 we are taught the concept of a darkner inhabiting a lightners lost dream (spamton NEO). Spamton was told from a mysterious source (The roaring knight themself?) that he can evolve past being just a darner in a dark world (becoming a BIG SHOT). This might mean many things, but with ralsei explaining in chapter 3 and 4 how dark worlds are made i have an inkling of an idea about that.

Ralsei tells us that the light and dark world arent a binary, they're a spectrum.

We have the light world (level 1), the dark (level 2), the darker dark (level 3) and then the yet darker dark (level4).

The first thing to assume when ralsei explains this is to think that the dark worlds we explore are at level 4, that when things are darkest, thats when a dark world materializes. Only one thing though...

You can open up a dark fountain inside a dark fountain. Making it even darker. A darkness even darkners cant survive.

When the roaring knight appears in chapter 3, susie and kris follow it, until they cant see each other anymore (susie specifically calling this out) and more importantly: a door appears. A door that leads to the light world.

So i think it actually might be a circular spectrum: all that light touches is at level 1; when light is running low and shadows start to grow the level is 2; a dark world appears at level 3 and the darkest dark is level 4 which somehow connects around to the light world at level 1 again.

This is why the roaring is so dangerous, because the titans and dark spawn are somehow able to impact the light world directly. (Im thinking of the shadow crystals here,... they are invincible but still cast a shadow)

That is the roaring knights promise to spamnton. It is what made jevil seemingly go insane: in being looked away from card castle he mightve believed that he managed to reach the "yet darker", being able to interact or impact the light world from there. Becoming more free, going to the next level.

And spamton was told that he needed the neo body for this. We dont even know what NEO means. But we do know that this information, the fact that we are told this "game mechanic", means that it wont be a one time thing.

The other "new game mechanic" we learn in chapter 2 is that multiple entities can form one singular body if their will or goal aligns. (Berdly even says "your knight in glow in the dark armor is here" when the transformation starts). The trash machine (+recruits) is also described by rouxls in his battle as an "effigie of an ancient god of combat".

Both these instances (and GIGA queen) and their design make me think that the roaring knight has a similar thing going:

Still of course, we need to uncover what or who is part of this "titan" called the roaring knight. What their components are.

The antlers make many believe that dess is in there (the bat that they turn into their black sword too), but i wouldnt be shocked if its soemthing different entirely.

concerning dess most likely being the knight and solving contradictions

i am by no means a dess knight denier (it's hard to justify a lot of stuff if it's not her - just the bat is enough to make you raise an eyebrow and be like. right. okay. obvious.) but what puzzles me is that, if she was able to go to the light world, like we know the knight did at the end of chapter 3... why not just come back home? why would she let her sister feel tormented by her absence? why let people think she's gone? why do all this, and to what end?

there's also the matter of the person trapped within code that i highly suspect to be dess. because if it's not her, who would it be?

so i'm wondering if it's not the sort of situation where she got somehow fragmented; not through time but through uh. space? metanarrative? i'm curious if both can't be true at the same time. if dess's consciousness is in some way tangled within the code, and if a part of her, maybe her body, is somehow stained with darkness and piloted to open up fountains. it doesn't escape my notice that the knight looks a lot like the titans we've seen in the explanation of the roaring, and it might be because it's literally an avatar for perpetuating the outweighing of darkness; the knight seems less a person and more a being following objectives to me

i might be also wondering if toby fox played kingdom hearts and if it's not some sort of terra/lingering will situation ngl

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that excerpt about the halloween pencil from that indie game, get in the car loser- it’s sweet and all, but is it official content? as far as i can tell, the game’s not made by toby.

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Kris is the Delta Δ

they is goddam Homura Akemi-ing the save files, starting over and over again:

them and someone (probs Gaster) are playing over and over again, slightly differently each time, to find the result they want to change the "Prophecy" aka THE SONG aka THE VERY PLOT of the game

Toby pulled a fast one on us with all that ocean talk and imagery, that was a distraction. This is your depths, this is your ocean and these are the waves🌊:

"Rhythm as a Continuous Sine Wave"

Kris is trying to change a song, maybe they were created by Gaster with the Goner Maker to do so or not...

ANYWAYS ALSO

"The tail of hell" might be all the save files where "Weird Route" shit has gone down

How we the player factor into this is still yet to come, but its looking more and more like Kris is our goner we made at the start, its just that maybe somthin went fucky wucky and our vessel went and got all independent on us

haha i did it, i finally got it all out an in a semi coherent explanation that-

🧠brain: *clears throat*

you shut the fuck up, you SHUT THE FUCK UP I AM SO TI-

*puts face in hands* please make it STOP

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It's really cool how, after Chapter 2 established the idea of Darkners (who aren't Ralsei) eventually petrifying when in a Dark World they 'don't belong' in, both Chapter 3 and Chapter 4 found a way to use that idea in really weird and creative ways to enhance their themes.

Chapter 3 blurs the seemingly obvious lines of "every Darkner belongs in the Dark World that created them", asks what does it really mean to 'belong'. A Plugboy (Ramb) and plenty of Pippins were brought to life via the Dark Fountain that created everything in TV World… and yet there are characters expressing the idea they don't belong due to their Dark World Backstories that means that they come from other Worlds - even if these obwere still totally in Kris' living room when those those Dark Fountains were opened.

And then it messes with it even further by having all the Pippins be totally fine, while Ramb the Plugboy and even one of the Zappers got petrified. It seems like the idea of belonging or not belonging in a Dark World is a lot more abstract and emotion-based then we previously thought. The Pippin's dialogue about Ramb implies he got petrified simply because he never really made friends, because he never fit in.

And that just… really helps the atmosphere of the endgame of TV World. The way that Tenna's obsession and breakdown is causing his world to crumble all around him, causing his own people to feel alienated. And this idea of feeling like you never really belong in your own home obviously fits in with the undercurrents of Dreemurr Family Drama that run through the entire chapter.

Meanwhile in Chapter 4, the Petrification is used to emphasize the narrative element of Predestination and, well, Prophecy. Because it's not just that the Darkners from the original "Dark Sanctuary" manifest as Petrified when Susie creates her "Second Sanctuary"

The Darkners of the Second Sanctuary already appeared Petrified in the First Sanctuary.

Meaning that basically, as far as the Dark Worlds were concerned, Susie's creation of the Second Sanctuary was preordained. So preordained that the objects that would become the Darkners that populate that Dark World came to life as soon as the First Sanctuary did, but then turned to stone because they actually belonged in that not-yet-created other Sanctuary.

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Revisiting this after chapter 3 and 4. I think it is likely that the reason asriel took this so seriously might have been because he knew the lizard and other video game characters from the dark world. Thats why he "forgot" to say it was in a video game.

Because it probably wasnt. He mightve let someone die and needed to confess this.

(It is also curious that he confesses this for kris too... either kris mightve been to the dark world too or them doing it in the game while asriel knows what is really happening was too triggering for him)

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I'm not sure where I stand on various Narrator Theories in Undertale and Deltarune, but Deltarune Chapter 4 did add in a very interesting detail. The SOUL versus Kris sequence in Chapter 4 confirms that the SOUL has no narration on it's own.

The narration stops when Kris tears us out, and the only text we get when we play the SOUL disembodied is dialogue from other characters. Despite being capable of sight and sound, the SOUL cannot 'examine' items and despite being able to move and interact with objects, it does not get it's actions narrated to it.

Whatever is up with the Narration, it is tied to Kris' physical body, not to us.

This is already a great narrative device because it enhances the creepy atmosphere of this sequence by completely robbing us of the familiar source of information and amusement, making everything feel empty and Wrong, but I do also have to wonder about the Implications of it.

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While replaying chapter 2 ive come to realize that queen is behaving like a motherly figure to noelle BECAUSE she knows carol isnt really there for her daughter..

A collection of thoughts and theories under the cut:

The truces scene:

kris and queen both ended up "alone", their teams "abandoning" them so they make a truce. (Having now played chapter 4, thats nice foreshadowing for whatevers going on with carol and kris... making me think that whatever deal carol has with kris, it supposed to be only temporary and otherwise they are on opposing sides?)

Then, berdly comes in and ALSO makes a truce with kris (not sure who hes a stand in for here, but its indicating what ive already been suspecting: kris is in cahoots with multiple people and might make dark fountains for multiple reasons aside from their own)

And then finally noelle makes a truce with them and you become a party

The ralsei and susie split:

Ralsei very obviously can be read into as a stand in for asriel, but with what we've been collecting about dess, susie, in this scene, can be read as her stand in: Noelle and kris and asriel and dess (ralsei and susie). We might be able to figure out more about how dess dissapearance (dessapearance?) happend if we take a look at this part.

Kris and queen part 1:

While teaming up with noelle kris faces queen on their own to "distarct her from noelle" quite a bit. Queen tells them that she just wants to make everyone smile and "if i become an evil villain to accomplish that.. is that bad?" (Carol roaring knight?)

Then queen talks about how she and kris could take this opportunity to go back to the "good old days", playing games and having a good time, just her and kris.

(Also queen "tolerating" berdly. YOU STUPID BIRD (endearingly) WHO ARE YOU A STAND IN FOR?? Who came between kris and carol, who was there, someone she could barely tolerate, someone who looked up to carol for approval?)

The berdly fight with noelle (normal route):

When you do CHECK with kris, it says "he usually only gets this mad when you play games together". This made me think. Who doe we know that has played games with kris? And one answer is asriel. Looking at berdly through a lens of a asriel stand in, we might figure that kris and asriels relationship isnt that great actually.

We do have some evidence for that assumption already: their bedroom. Asriels room is full of trophies while kris side has a noticeable lack there of.

In some instances where we interact with berdly, he is visibly mad that they solved puzzles without his help, insisting they dont tell anyone at the noelle mouse puzzle.

In the fight berdly speaks of noelle as his most precious thing and is afraid that kris might take it away from him. (A quick note about his bullet patterns, one being letters with a+ on it... a like asriel ? Probably not intended but with toby you never know)

At one point his summoned allies fade away and he speaks of "them helping queen search for me" (someone carol should be searching for? Dess *and* asriel? Is there... a third holiday kid?)

(Berdly also has a weapon that both is an axe and a lance. Not sure what to make of that yet.)

After the fight noelle tells berdly that he looks exhausted (from trying to hard). Could it be that asriel was put under alot of stress to excel? Asriel going to college is mentioned many times. In a conversation with burgerpants (uh i guess pizzapants in dr), he even talks about how he wasnt able to go while azzy is (believing that they are in the same age group with catty, bratty, dess and blue ears).

The car driving scene:

Noelle (in disguise) asks why queen needs to find noelle so badly. "Because she is strong." Then there's a sudden cut in the scene with the car exploding. (A sudden cut so the player is kept in the dark?)

(Immediately followed by us spelling out december)

"Remember that night the 4 of us explored that graveyard? I mostly remember ... crying because i was scared. ... dess wiping away my tears with azzy's jacket... i guess i didnt mind being scared if that meant someone would comfort me."

The firework bullets:

Noelle is missing in the next room after we dodge the firework bullets, susie asks where she is. Noelle arrives late saying sorry and that shes never seen fireworks up close before. Susie says "those bullets, what you scared?"... noelle replies "um i guess so maybe thats why i couldnt stop watching." (Something that hurts *us/the heart* but seemingly not noelle? Could she have seen what happened to dess? And forgotten about the memory? Is she going to remember it eventually at some point in the game)

About the rooms in queens mansion/everyones search results:

Kris has the search query "summer vacation college when", "how to use magic", "sharpest kitchen knife jello", "video game piano tutoriel" and "diy bath bomb"

Susies room has (1) a somewhat glitched out hologramm from search query: FJFIrejirioEUEUROEI4378789; "cool skateboard game online cheat"; a vacuum powered book from "losers! This librarby sucks"; a (floating) painted, warm egg from "can harboil eggs hatch"

Berdlys room has something that "surprised you.. kind of" inside

Cattys room is "wallpapered with the pink cat ad from the city. Its animated too."

Jockintons room "is beautiful" (is this a deliberate vague description?)

Asriels room, "you open the door with your eyes closed. You saw nothing" (clearly kris keeping the player away from something important they could discover)

The light shadows puzzle:

The text reads "these darkbulbs will cast a bright shadow on the ground. Fill in the space with dark to unlock the way" (is this in reference to the shadow crystals? In the dark world they are invisible with only the shadow they cast being visible..) (the different colors turn into a white form when combined)

Berdly tells kris to "leave the controls alone" (meta much?)

Berdlys backstory:

"I used to be a forgettable blue bird, no one even remembered my name." (Here fomes to mind lancer forgetting kris name multiple times and calling them blue person instead)

Berdly tasting an addictive POWER of superiority.. (..at this point its unclear if we are supposed to relay this to asriel or kris) but it is not berdly that actually brings in the results, it is noelle, but expectations for berdly are high (..im thinking, the soul/us acting as kris, us being the driving power behind kris actions, not kris themselves..) "what am i gonna do if i go somewhere without her?" Then he concludes that thats why he wanted to make a new world. For noelle and berdly. (Is this why kris opens up fountains?)

"But i was so wrapped up in that i got tricked by queen" (kris got caught?/tricked by carol? And their original reason got lost?)

(I realise that im trying to interpret what we see with berdly as both asriel and kris, it just isnt clear to me yet, but i have a feeling we could learn a bit more about their sibling relationship)

Other miscellaneous things:

Clicking on a pop up enemy with kris tells you that they are interested in "summoning demons"

The "cat" colors from chapter 3's image_friend are also found in the backround of cyber city with a cat mascot on it. Catti also has the same color combination: noelles yellow and susies pink.

Dragon blazers 2 is mentioned. A sister gets cursed. Her stats suck but she is your party member.

(Just gonna post this as it is im way too tired to make this sound more eloquently... maybe someone appreciates it nonetheless)

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DELTARUNE CH4 WEIRD ROUTE SPOILERS CONTINUE ONLY IF YOU DARE!

No cause wtf was that Kris and Ralsei apple eating scene??? I need to see someone do an analysis or something cause I can see that meaning so many different things. (Also I WAS scared that Kris had fully bitten poor Ralsei’s hand for a moment.)

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when the girl is lost or soemthing.,...,..

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Lost where the forest would grow, the children followed the pointed tail.

I was looking and apparently there was a spamton sweepstakes that use part of this phrase. Also, right before this screen there is a prophecy stain glass thing that shows a house and two trees and it just says roots. The only other interactable thing in the room is a book that reads:

"And so wept the fallen star, making rivers with its tears. Then, slowly, from the bitter water, something grew. It looked like glass."

This is a hidden room in one of the windows in the hallway leading to the sacred moss. Does anyone have any ideas?

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It has only just occurred to me right now how strange it is for Gaster to directly intervene during the Roaring Knight encounter, allowing us to retry the fight without having to trudge through Tenna's dismemberment over and over. And the only logical conclusion you can infer from such is that Gaster wants us to collect shadow crystals, and is actively facilitating events so that we are able to do so.

Not so earth-shattering a revelation on its own perhaps... but think about how this completely recontextualises the secret bosses that came before - Jevil and Spamton NEO. Both were contacted by a "certain someone" (heavily implied to be Gaster himself) who filled their head with meta knowledge that broke them. Jevil began seeing the whole world as a game to be played entirely without consequence, and Spamton became obsessed with reaching "H E A V E N" with the help of Kris's SOUL. They were set on a maddening path, attained phenomenal power, and were ultimately pacified/defeated by the heroes, yielding up their Shadow Crystal.

Do you see? Gaster didn't do all of this in an attempt to create a "guide" for the player, or so he could have agents in the world of Deltarune that could act on his will... Gaster created the monsters that were Jevil and Spamton for the SOLE PURPOSE of creating the conditions necessary for the creation of shadow crystals - then set them in our path so we could defeat them and harvest those crystals.

Gaster wants us to collect the crystals. The question now is - why?

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HUH! I just realised ... darkners go gray when they arent in the world they belong to.....

(Goners arent supposed to be in the undertale world? Does ut play in a dark world? Otherwise the goners wouldnt be able to have a physical form right...?)

Lightners....

Darkners....

Goners

whats between light and dark?

grey

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(Suspiously connecting roulx to sans...)

I have connected the dots.

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I find this moment where Rudy interrupts Toriel because it really adds an interesting layer to his relationship with Mayor Holiday, because it kinda communicates to us that Rudy is second-guessing his relationship with her to the point where he's not comfortable having her addressed as his spouse

When he speaks her name, his expression makes it as if he's saying it with a grudging and frustrated tone. And the fact that Rudy sharply interrupts her IMMEDIATELY after Toriel addresses Carol as that, and instead opts to call her by her first name indicates to me that Carol's neglect and toxic parenting are starting to test his patience, especially in the wake of Dess's disappearance.

Remember how when Kris asks them about Carol and Noelle when visiting the hospital in Chapter 1 he said "love her but... she's tough on her"? That could very well be a euphemism for how not-so-good things really are, and that Rudy's trying to quell Kris's worries by pretending that by pretending he loves her more than he actually does.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see what becomes of Rudy and Carol's marriage in the following chapters, especially as we learn about her role in the Dark World.

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Deltarune ch 4 spoilers - subject: Carol's familiar oddities

Not to mention the weird santa/puppet parallel. If we assume this connection will be carried on, it's possible Carol is being controlled in a way as well (perhaps by the santas?? or maybe another soul..? Something greater using an inanimate object as a vessel to control people) ((if you want to get really far fetched, remove the "ro" from Carol and you get Cal))

I do feel like there may be more here. While the other monsters in town have their Undertale counterparts, the Holidays are the odd ones out (along with Suzie). After chapter 4, it really feels like they're Strider/Homestuck inspired.

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CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR DELTARUNE CHAPTERS 3 and 4

Long ass post using the Deltarune OST and motifs as a basis for theories, specifically about Dess, her relationship with Kris, and the implications of what it all means

This might be all over the place but I have to get all of this out somewhere. This is a working theory and includes the theory that Dess is the Knight, however I do not go in depth into that part of the theory

Thinking about the Deltarune OST, specifically Raise Your Bat. This is the song that you play with Susie and Ralsei in the Lightners Live band minigame. In the segment directly before you play this minigame, Tenna brings up December and calls her a ‘musical prodigy’, and even jokes about bringing her back. There are very few times Dess gets name dropped in all of Deltarune, and I don’t think that it’s a coincidence that she gets mentioned right before you play a song called Raise Your Bat, given that elsewhere in the game you can find a picture with December in it, holding a bat and that the Knight has what looks like a bat as a weapon. My theory is that Tenna brings up Dess before this song plays because Dess is the one who wrote the song. There’s a specific lyric ‘and your futures lost its rights’ that could be referencing Dess and her potential role as the Knight, and the whole Prophecy Has Been Foretold, No Escape type thing.

I had to go back and look at the lyrics because every time I play the minigame I get too focused on doing good lol BUT for the most part, Ralsei changes the lyrics after remarking that they might be ‘inappropriate’, which is another reason why I think Dess wrote the song. However, there is a specific set of lyrics that don’t get changed:

‘Come follow me into the dark, with your heart as the ark which shall shine you the way // Because I’m with you in the dark with your heart as my mark which shall guide you the way, through the waves’

We have heard some of these lyrics before, in Don’t Forget, the song that plays in the end credits of chapter one, and the last song on chapter one’s OST. ‘I’m with you in the dark’ is used in both songs and interestingly enough, the melody that is sung with these lyrics are from the melody of Lost Girl, from chapter 2. What’s even MORE interesting is that the specific section of Lost Girl that is sampled is the section that contains Gasters Theme.

If my theory about Dess writing Raise Your Bat is correct, then this would draw a connection from Dess to Don’t Forget, potentially with Dess being the one who sings it. Musical prodigy, after all. I feel like this has basis because Don’t Forget isn’t in the play through of the game, but the end credits. It feels akin to the unused text you can find in the code of the game, there but overlooked. Dess is trying to communicate in whatever way she can, but she’s lost in the game itself. I think further evidence of this is the appearance of Gasters theme in Raise Your Bat, as he is also ‘lost’ in the game, a character who once existed but has disappeared from some tragedy.

Now, here’s where things get very theory heavy, and rely based on my own ideas of how things fit together. Hear me out. The full lyrics of Don’t Forget are as follows:

‘When the light is running low, and the shadows start to grow, and the places that you know seem like fantasy // there’s a light inside your soul that’s still shining in the cold with the truth, the promise in our hearts. Don’t forget, I’m with you in the dark.’

Now, may I call your attention to the end of chapter 4, if you aren’t doing the weird route:

Based on both of these lines being paralleled beautifully to Don’t Forget, if Dess truly is the singer in Don’t Forget, then this implies that Dess is the Knight. It also implies that Dess and Kris made a promise to each other, and I think it revolves around Noelle and the prophecy. That would also mean that Dess and Kris knew about the Dark World before the events of Deltarune chapter one occur.

We the player do not know the whole prophecy. Ralsei knows it all, Susie knows the end, and we might assume that Kris does not know the end because we the player do not get to see it. However I think Kris knows much more than they are letting on. Chapter 4 implies that Kris could have a preexisting relationship with the Knight and may be actively working with them, based on us overhearing the phone call in the Holiday’s kitchen, as well as the scene when fighting the Knight, if it’s a no hit run, Kris will cough, the Knight turns, and the fight ends. This all falls into place if the Knight really is Dess. Kris and Dess have made some kind of promise, and are working together to do… something.

I have seen a few people talk about the prophecy in light of everything revealed in chapter 4, and how they believe that Susie is not the intended hero of the prophecy but rather Noelle. the silhouette we see of ‘the girl’ the prophecy mentions has been noted to also fit a silhouette of Noelle, and the description we see could easily apply to her. Noelle is clearly very important to the story and it’s highly likely she is the intended lightener, along with Kris, in the prophecy.

I think the promise Dess and Kris made was to protect Noelle from whatever terrible ending Susie saw and Ralsei knows. I think that they are working together to create a different ending, and Kris either can’t or doesn’t want to get anyone else involved, so they keep it to themselves, despite genuinely caring for both other members of their party. I think this is a reason why Kris gets so upset when we the player force them to go through with Snowgrave, because Kris knows what happens at the end, if Noelle is involved.