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discuntelysium · 2 years ago

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@elohima

imho, the second you turn rbs or comments off, you lose. But there are so many inaccuracies and logical fallacies in your response. Normally i would just let sleeping dogs lie but you’re not the only one who believes this bullshit so i want to respond.

“Israel is not an apartheid state. you link your articles and resources, but have you ever been to Israel? come visit- it's a beautiful place. talk to arabs living here, in israel- not in the west bank or in gaza, which i never mentioned in my post. ask them how their lives are here.”

This actually made my jaw drop. She said, “Yeah the UN and Amnesty International say it's apartheid but its a beautiful country 🤓”. Everything just flew right over your head, huh? What's the matter, is systemic too big of a word for you? Grab a dictionary and reread what I wrote in my original post, cause there's no way you're stupid enough to believe that this is a valid argument.

You say your argument excludes the West Bank and Gaza? That’s fine. To be clear, you and I both know that Israel is still an apartheid state. There’s something you never mention in any of your posts. Probably because you know that it completely destroys your argument: It’s that your “country” distinguishes between nationality and citizenship.

Which means that “Arab” citizens do not have the same access that Jewish Israeli citizens do. Because nationality, in Israel is determined by ethnicity, cannot be changed, and this discrimination affects nearly every aspect of Arab-Israeli life. So as you can see, apartheid still exists, even within the green line.

Let me be clear: when multinational NGOs, multinational IGOs, and human rights groups both in and out side of Israel claim that it is an apartheid state, there is nothing you can say to dispute that. Okay? Nothing. Stop embarrassing yourself.

“HAMAS is a terrorist organization. they control gaza completely. hamas hides behind children and stores ammunition (that is used against israeli citizens) in the middle of neighborhoods where gazan citizens live: in kindergartens, schools, hospitals and actual buildings where people live.”

But do they, really?

An investigation done by the BBC found no evidence to corroborate this claim.

An investigation done by the Belfast Telegram found no evidence to corroborate this claim.

An investigation done by Amnesty International found no evidence to corroborate this claim.

And still, there is no evidence from either side that Hamas is using these “human shields”.

Furthermore, this kind of logic only serves to dehumanize the Palestinians living in Gaza by making it seem like their deaths are circumstantial; by turning them into accessories to the war; by obfuscating the truth which is, Palestinian people die because Israel carpet bombs them. Because Israel is not targeting Hamas; it’s targeting Palestinians. Because for the past 70 years, Israel has demonstrated a commitment to wiping Palestine off the map completely.

In fact, Israel is the one who uses Palestinians as human shields; by forcing Palestinian citizens to check homes for traps, or by tying them to tanks to prevent people from throwing rocks. So maybe it’s just a case of projection.

oh, and by the way, hamas isn't the only terror organization around here. Hezbollah is the one bombing Israeli civilians in the north, so Israel fights back. you know, like every country does, but for some reason we, the one Jewish country in the world, have to justify protecting ourselves from terror.

What does it mean for a settler-colony to ‘protect itself’? Protect itself from whom? The people whose land they took?

I’m actually genuinely curious as to how you can believe that violence on behalf of the IDF and the Israeli government is an act of self defense. You didn’t respond to anything I said in my first rb about all the palestinians detained in Israeli prisons without trial, do you think that they were put there in self defense? Or the 200+ people killed when Palestinians organized their peaceful march for freedom. Did that stem from the need to protect Israel too? What about when the IDF forces Palestinians to cut down their olive trees, their only source of income, some of which have been in families for generations. What do you say to this? It’s not defense. It’s cruelty.

And oh my god, stop victimizing yourself. There was massive pushback to the Vietnam War, the war in Afghanistan. Because guess what— most people feel some amount of discomfort at the idea of innocent civilians being killed in their name. There is nothing unique about your country or the situation that it is in right now. It was born out of violence, it maintains itself through violence, and it justifies this violence through the dehumanization of the other. And you are complicit.

my country was created because this is our land.

This line of reasoning + the claims to Jewish “indigeneity” are often presented as justification for Israel’s creation. But this is a response to a strawman argument; as if the question of who lives in Palestine just depends on who got there first. Evidently, between the first century and the nineteenth century, people moved in, populations and demographics shifted. Palestine was not “your land”; if it was, there wouldn’t need to be a mass exodus of Palestinians, you fucking dumbass.

Do you know who really is ‘a people without a land’? African Americans whose ancestors were brought to America as slaves. Romani people, who also faced persecution in Europe and during WWII. Why do you think they aren’t getting their own ethnostate?

I don’t trust your critical thinking skills, so I’ll just tell you. It’s because giving them an ethnostate doesn’t further western hegemony like the creation of Israel did. The very roots of Israel are steeped in colonialism. It was described as a “colonial project” by Theodore Herzl, one of the founders of zionism. Other notable quotations from proponents of an independent Jewish state in Palestine include, “Zionism is a colonial adventure”; “The Arabs do not want us here because we wish to be the rulers of this land. I will fight for this. I will make sure we are the landlords.”

It’s not “your land”; even modern day politicians know that there is no legal justification for Israel existing. The only people who believe that it does are people like you.

on November 29th, 1947, the UN suggested establishing two states—one Jewish, one Arab. the jews agreed. the arabs started a war the very next day.

It amazes me how people always manage to learn just enough history to appease their own world-views, nothing more.

The UN’s suggestion was just that— a suggestion. The UN does not actually have any authority to create states. In fact, the UN committee on Palestine acknowledged that the establishment of Israel had infringed on Palestinian right to self determination.

You framed this in a way that implies that “the arabs” are to blame because they started the war. Read this very carefully: colonialism is always, always the original act of violence. Everything that happens after-wards is a symptom of that. The UN’s two-state proposal was essentially just asking Palestinians to agree to their own colonization. No peoples should ever be asked to do this.

why didn't you mention the horrible massacre that happened on October 7th? the citizens kidnapped by hamas?

Because I recognize that this didn’t happen in a bubble.

Because Hamas was originally funded by Israel.

Because Hamas attempted to negotiate a peace treaty with Hamas 5 times, and Israel rejected its terms; to free Palestinian prisoners in Israel; to remove Israeli troops from Palestinian territories; to restore Palestinian borders to what they were in 1967.

Because Hamas began as a peaceful group and radicalized incrementally, and each radicalization occurred directly because of Israeli violence.

Because Israel prefers violence to peace, as has been demonstrated throughout its short and bloody history.

i will continue to live here- i have no where else to go. this is my home. that is it.

You can do whatever the hell you want. I have no objection to where you live. What I do object to, is the beliefs that you hold about your citizenship, about your country, and about the people that had to be and still are killed and exiled to justify your country’s existence.

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discuntelysium · 2 years ago

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Okay lets do this fr fr.

I’ve seen so many people saying stuff like this, on tiktok, on twt, i haven’t been able to actually say everything i want to say. But there are a lot of inaccuracies that are just plain harmful for people to believe so lets get into this.

OP, I’m speaking to you directly: I hope you read this, as I read your piece, and if you have anything to say, I am more than happy to hear it.

Statement one: Israel is not an apartheid state

What she said: “i see people online talk about how there is supposedly apartheid here, but one quick look in google will show you there are arab members of parliament, how we work together, study together. in what apartheid country are the oppressed people doctors, nurses, lawyers and engineers?”

Im gonna assume that you have some knowledge of Harry Potter, i’m gonna make an analogy here. This is like pointing to Remus Lupin and going, how can you say that werewolves are oppressed when this one right here is a professor?

Okay, don’t roll your eyes please, let me continue. In the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, apartheid is described as follows: “inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;”

And it is characterized by the following:

Forcible displacement of a large group of peoples

Imprisonment or deprivation of liberty

Persecution based on national origins

So you see, having a few high-placing, well-earning Palestinians means nothing, because apartheid is a systemic issue. Another apt metaphor for the argument being made by the op: is like saying the US justice system is not racist because there are black and brown police officers, judges, and lawyers. Because we all know that means absolutely nothing in the broader scheme of things, right? I mean, I sure hope so.

Here are the actual events that have happened in Israel that allow it to be characterized as an apartheid state by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the B’TSelem— Israel’s largest human rights group:

The entire government literally operates on the basis of expanding the rights of one group (Jews) while subjugating another (Palestinians). This is the base definition of apartheid. Since the foundation of Israel, Palestinians have been systematically removed from their homes and relocated to the West Bank or Gaza to account for Jewish settlers. Palestinian people in Gaza, the West Bank, and in “Israeli” territory face much higher rates of incarceration— specifically, most recently, there were an accounted 5000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons, 160 of them children and 1100 imprisoned without trial. Propaganda machines peddle this story about some “Green Line”— but nobody actually knows where this line ends. The Israeli government enjoys unfettered authority over both “Israel” and "Palestine”, and it uses this authority to subjugate and oppress the Palestinian people on their own land. This is textbook apartheid.

Statement 2: “Obviously there are radical people (as there are in any country), but a lot of jews and arabs want to coexist. and we do”

Crazy. Insane thing to say. And I’m not even touching on how you’re too afraid to say the word Palestine or Palestinian here.

Who are you referring to, when you say ‘radical people’? Are they more radical than your president, who has gone on record calling Palestinians the “sons of darkness”?

It’s not a war between “radicals” on both sides. It’s between the Israeli government, that wants Palestine completely gone, and the resistance that has emerged from this colonialist ideology. Your tag says “free gaza from hamas”; this is nonsense. Hamas is a natural consequence of what Israel has been doing to Palestine for years. When children watch their parents beaten by idf soldiers when they’re praying (article from april 5 2023), when the idf uses live ammo against peaceful protestors (article from 2021), when a government settles, colonizes, and brutalizes an indigenous population, resistance emerges. That is why palestine can only be free of violence when it is free of Israel. I cannot believe there are actually people who do not understand this.

Statement 3: Jewish people have nowhere to go/are indigenous to Israel as justification of Israel’s existence

There is more historical presence of the Jewish community in Brooklyn, New York, than there is in Israel. (x)

Weak ass argument smh. All of them, but this one specifically. Indigeneity does not warrant forcible displacement of another indigenous population. Does not warrant the perpetration of violence against that population.

Statement 4: “the blood on your land has already dried, so now you come to us, one of the smallest countries in the world, and call us an empire? accuse us of being colonizers and of ethnic cleansing, while the population of the palestinian people has only grown since 1948?”

I’m taking this personally, sorry. “My land” is India. My friends who support Palestine, their “lands” are Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, Korea. And sure, there are white Americans who support Palestine too, but you called me out so I’m speaking to that. Can you think of anything that Indians, Pakistanis, Korean people might have in common? Anything at all?

Now lets get into the content of what you’re saying.

“the blood on your land has already dried, so now you come to us,” Being from a country that has a colonial past doesn’t mean that you can’t speak out about colonialism occurring in real time

“one of the smallest countries in the world, and call us an empire?” Your country is a nuclear power and has the backing of the United States, Canada, the UK, and France, to name a few. Stfu w the victim card like ur pissing me off frrrr omfg 😭😭😭😭

“ accuse us of being colonizers and of ethnic cleansing” your country says they have a problem with hamas. They carpet bomb gaza, hospitals, churches, refugee camps because apparently, despite all the money that western superpowers are funneling into your government, they are too stupid to eliminate hamas without killing thousands of innocent civilians. Babies, women. Entire bloodlines in gaza wiped out. The first page of civilian casualties is from one family. Not hamas. They bomb the west bank, where there is no Hamas. They drop bombs on Palestinian pockets in Lebanon, where there is no Hamas. They threaten Palestinian celebrities like Gigi and Bella Hadid, who are not Hamas. How can you be so blind? Your country was created by British colonialists to expand Western hegemony. I am more than happy to send you the correspondence, which is publicly available and explicitly states this. And they maintain their presence through violence, and now, through genocide.

“while the population of the palestinian people has only grown since 1948?” What does this mean? Be serious with me, how would this help your point? All it tells me is that the Israeli government wasn’t going and murdering entire bloodlines before, like it is now. Populations grow. That happens everywhere. Shit, the Indian population grew exponentially during British occupation. Does that suddenly mean that the British didn’t colonize India? Seriously, can you explain to me why you zionists keep saying this and thinking that they did something? Do you think you ate with this? Am I misunderstanding your point? I’m being fr like, please tell me, because I genuinely don’t understand how you think this is somehow in your favor.

Claim 4: “there are many things wrong with our government, but you seem to forget that we, the people who live here, want to live together. and while you, who live across the world, will forget about us once this war stops trending, we will continue to live together.”

If you genuinely think that yall and Palestinians were living TOGETHER. Girl wake up, please!! Such an uninformed take. I only have this to tell you: the world will not forget Palestine, and we will all remember Israel in the same way we remember the British Empire , or the French, or the German. I promise you that.

when my grandmother was a child, she and her family immigrated to israel. she doesn’t remember any of it because it was very traumatic for her, but they had to leave the muslim country they were living in because it was no longer safe to be jewish there. my 3 other grandparents have similar stories- they all had to leave the muslim countries they have lived in for years because the antisemitism was just too much.

when you assume all jews in israel are ashkenazi jews, simply because you are in western countries where the majority of jewish communities are ashkenazi and are white passing, you are forgetting us. there are millions of african jews, arab jews, who came to israel because it is our homeland. there are archeological evidence of jews living here thousands of years ago, before we were exiled at 70 BC.

so when someone who has never been in israel tells me i have to go back to where i came from, i genuinely don’t know what you mean. i will be immediately prisoned or executed if i stepped foot in any of the countries my grandparents came from. friends of my family who live in france are afraid to show any sign of being jewish in public because of the rise in antisemitism, all across the world and in france specifically.

i can’t speak for all people living here, and obviously there are radical people (as there are in any country), but a lot of jews and arabs want to coexist. and we do- i see people online talk about how there is supposedly apartheid here, but one quick look in google will show you there are arab members of parliament, how we work together, study together. in what apartheid country are the oppressed people doctors, nurses, lawyers and engineers?

there are many things wrong with our government, but when someone who is european, or american, says to us that we should leave the land that “doesn’t belong to us”, it sounds to me so hypocritical. the blood on your land has already dried, so now you come to us, one of the smallest countries in the world, and call us an empire? accuse us of being colonizers and of ethnic cleansing, while the population of the palestinian people has only grown since 1948?

there are many things wrong with our government, but you seem to forget that we, the people who live here, want to live together. and while you, who live across the world, will forget about us once this war stops trending, we will continue to live together.

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