dongzhou3kingdoms

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Does the ROTK novel or any figure during the Three Kingdoms ever mention Liu Xiu・Emperor Guangwu of Han - The founder of the Eastern Han Dynasty.

I am only aware that Cao Cao definitely praises Guangwu of Han at one point in the historical records but I am curious if there were more people talking or discussing him as the novel seems to have more of emphasis on Liu Bang or Emperor Gaozu of Han. For that matter, why put the emphasis more on Liu Bang as opposed to Liu Xiu?

In the novel it mentions him at the start and in a poem, Zhou Yu use of advice he got to persuade Lu Su to go to Sun Quan, Cui Zhouping to Liu Bei, Liu Bei memorial on ascending to the throne, Cheng Pu explaining the seal, Xun Yu on advising Cao Cao not to attack Xu. There are others in the historical records My guess would be the founder of the Han is more of a fitting subject, the man who started the centuries long dynasty, then the one who is the restorer and a continuation of said dynasty.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

The thing about Cao Cao's Wuhuan campaign is that he broke every rule. The majority of his court advised him against it, and for very good reasons. If he had failed it would have been one of the most predictable disasters in China's military history and probably would have destroyed his reputation completely.

It was hard to campaign against the nomads in their own territory. Han armies had no ability to bring them to battle. They would just retreat and harass the army in endless raids. There were no fixed points where a Han army could bring them to battle.

Except that the Wuhuan had to worry about Yuan Shang and his loyalist forces. They couldn't simply retreat in the face of danger. Cao Cao knew they were at Liucheng, so the Wuhuan would be forced to fight him if he advanced there. This solved the first problem, of bringing the Wuhuan to battle.

But the Wuhuan were fast and mobile. If Cao Cao marched for Liucheng directly, they would intercept him at a place of their choosing, or harass him from the rear.

So Cao Cao pulled off a mass deception. He feigned a direct advance on Liucheng while actually marching along a circuitous route known only through the help of a local guide, Tian Chou. By the time the Wuhuan realized what was happening, he was able to take up a position at Bailang Shan (White Wolf Mountain).

The Wuhuan couldn't just let him march on Liucheng, so they brought all of their forces to oppose him (including Yuan Shang). This completely flipped the script. Somehow, Cao Cao forced the nomads to come to him and do battle at a time and place of his choosing. His ability to do so was his perhaps greatest strength as a commander.

Even then it might not have been enough, but Cao Cao had one more weapon in his arsenal: a truly elite cavalry force that could match and even exceed the Wuhuan. Setting aside speculation about the troop composition for men like Zhang Liao and Zhang Xiu (a separate discussion) , Cao Chun commanded an extremely successful cavalry corps. They were able to overpower the Wuhuan and capture their leader, Tadun, in the battle.

The campaign came with a heavy cost, of course. Guo Jia and Zhang Xiu both died of illness. Cao Cao was aware of how risky the expedition was and, upon returning home, rewarded all those who warned him against it even though he was victorious.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Realistically, how culturally Han would the Sichuan that Liu Bei conquered be? Do we know if its southwestern location and any present non-Han groups influenced its culture at all?

For the purposes of this question, we can divide Liu Bei's territory into three basic spheres: Shu proper (the Sichuan basin), Ba (the northeast mountains), and Nanzhong (the southern portion).

Shu was as culturally Han as anywhere in the north. Han settlers had been living there since the time of Emperor Wu and were thoroughly entrenched. It is for this reason that Shu became a gathering place for many different Han refugees, who knew that they would find a familiar home there.

The Ba region was more heavily inhabited by non-Han clades (mostly the Di people). There were fortified Han cities and towns in the river valleys, where their traditional agricultural practices could flourish. The lowlands were Han, the highlands were Di and others.

The situation in Nanzhong was similar. Han settlements dotted the landscape where their agricultural practices were applicable, with the people of Nanzhong occupying the places that were difficult for them to reach. The campaigns of Ma Zhong and his successors expanded the region of Han settlement, or at least firmly nailed down where those settlements were.

It's also crucial to remember that in this region, the Han people had been interacting with local polities for centuries. Some of the leading families in Nanzhong were originally Han but intermarried with the local population to such an extent that they were accepted as locals (like the families of Meng Huo, Yong Kai, Li Hui, etc.) but were also amenable to Han/Shu administration.

Like almost everywhere else in the Han empire, the region of the southeast was culturally diverse. Very few regions were culturally homogeneous. There was a firmly entrenched and very distinct Han population, but there was also extensive interaction with the non-Han population, which likely outnumbered them. The cities belonged to the Hans; everything else belonged to everyone else.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

How did the Jin Dynasty end up empowering so many of the princes so intensely when they had the lesson of the Zhou Dynasty to learn from?

I think we can attribute this to recency bias.

The Sima family watched first the Liu, then the Cao lose everything. When the Cao started to take power from the Liu, and the Sima from the Cao, all of the satellite relatives could do nothing about it. They had no ability to intervene and protect their family's power and position. Perhaps they thought that a dynasty where the whole family could enforce its supremacy would be more stable.

We can thank the Jin dynasty for proving which system worked better.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Was Sima Yi's loyalty towards Cao Cao, Cao Pi, and Cao Rui legitimate or illegitimate? Like did he support or despise them?

Obviously there's no way we can know what is in someone's mind, especially someone like Sima Yi. But for what it's worth:

I think that Sima Yi was always ambitious and was always going to climb as high as he could, but that the ceiling changed over time. Prior to Cao Rui's unexpectedly early death in 239, there was no reason to think he or his sons would be in a position to make a play for the throne.

I don't see any reason why he would have felt dissatisfied under any of those three. Cao Cao fast-tracked his career by taking him onto his personal staff, Cao Pi at times gave him control over the entire central government, and under Cao Rui he was unquestionably the highest official in the state. This success extended to his family, siblings as well as sons. He had no cause for complaint there.

He also had personal ties to the family. His father Sima Fang had been friends with Cao Cao for many years, when Sima Yi was still a child. He is recorded to have been a close personal friend to Cao Pi and Cao Rui regarded him as an uncle. These are very deep personal ties.

Obviously these ties didn't stop him from taking complete power when he had the opportunity to do so, nor did they prevent his children from removing the Cao rulers as soon as it was practical. We shouldn't overstate the importance of hose ties, but they can't be disregarded either. These connections must have influenced his behavior towards the initial three Cao rulers.

I don't think Sima Yi seizing power (or trying to) was inevitable. I think that if Cao Rui had lived longer (if Cao Fang had been an adult when he came to the throne) and circumstances had been different, Sima Yi might have been content to serve the Cao for the remainder of his life as merely the highest official of the state. But that isn't the world we're living in.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

There are inevitable problems when trying to guess the motivations of people thousands of years ago. Bonus difficulty points when on the losing side. Neither of those three (for example) have a biography so we are working on very limited information about their dynamics with their lords (and camp) and what is recorded is from a rival camp which can lead to distortions. In Ju Shou's case at least, he is very useful propaganda for the Cao family to hit Yuan Shao over the head with, which needs to be born in mind. Also, a danger, then as now, of putting something down to any one reason. 1) Loyalty. I mean, why not, Liu Zhang and family had ruled in Yi for over two decades. Ju Shou had gone from a rising figure under Han Yu to Yuan Shao's most senior officer, even if things had gone sour of late. Why would there not be loyalty?

2) Such figures may not have thought much of the other guy. When a warlord loses, their failings get (helped on by the victors) magnified and remembered, their defeat can take a feeling of inevitability (bear in mind Zhang Ren died before Loucheng fell, it would be seven years before Yuan Shang died). We can forget there may be reasons why someone might not wish to serve Liu Bei or Cao Cao or the Sun's. Liu Bei was an outsider who had allied with Liu Zhang then engineered an invasion after a career with many setbacks. Cao Cao had been highly successful but had nastily turned on Yuan Shao, was not without some glaring self-inflicted setbacks, let alone the controversies as Chen Lin had hammered at. 3) Family. Ju Shou is said to have asked Cao Cao for a quick execution because his family was under Yuan Shao. Warlords tended to hold hostages so, for example, wouldn't have been hard for Yuan Shao to execute the Ju's in his camp and send to Shen Pei to finish any in Ji. A loyal death would be expected to save the families and with a hope they might be honoured and even given preference in the future. 4) Reputation. Tian Feng and Ju Shou are perhaps Yuan Shao's most remembered advisers (third is probably Shen Pei who died a loyalist and was held up by Pei Songzhi as a martyr), ditto Zhang Ren. Being remembered as a loyal man could help maintain reputation of family in their local area, as well as the fame to the name across the centuries.

I wonder why people like Zhang Ren, Ju Shou, and Gao Shun didn't switch allegiance after being captured when their former lord was not a good leader anyway. Is it just blind loyalty? What is your opinion on this?

Some people have things they value much, much more than life.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Historically, did Ma Chao and Han Sui have any real chance of beating Cao Cao in the West? In the novel they did score some initial impressive victories before ultimately losing

They had a very real chance of success. Realistically they didn't need to even defeat Cao Cao; they just had to make campaigning against them more effort than it was worth. The situation wasn't too different from that of the Gongsun in Liaodong.

The west was always difficult for the central government to control. Han civilization existed in a narrow band along the river valleys. They were surrounded by migratory agriculturalists (like the Qiang) and nomadic equestrians (like the Xianbei) who could be subjects, tributaries, or enemies depending on their individual circumstances. Communication with the central provinces was difficult and the entire region could be isolated by holding a few key points. Subsequent historical periods find several independent states in this region.

From 184-190, Han tried and failed to suppress a widespread revolt in the west. Han Sui and Ma Teng came to power in the wake of this chaos, at the hed of a coalition of warlords left over after the initial wave of rebellion. Most of these warlords nominally submitted to Cao Cao in 208 (when Ma Teng went to the capital and left Ma Chao in charge of the family army) but revolted in 211 when they thought they had an opportunity for it.

Cao Cao destroyed the coalition near Tong Pass, in one of his most excellently conducted campaigns. Xiahou Yuan spent the next several years mopping up the remaining warlords before they reunited to subdue Zhang Lu in 215.

Had Han Sui's coalition been victorious against Cao Cao in the initial campaign, the western warlords probably could have remained independent indefinitely. Even failing at that, if resistance to Xiahou Yuan's operations had been stiffer, Cao Cao might have been persuaded to come to terms with them rather than continue the campaigns.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Finally finished my Empress Zhangsun post!

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

With Cao Cao making all the real decisions, what did Liu Xie do all day? More generally, what were puppet leaders of that sort (Liu Xie, Sun Liang, Cao Fang, etc.) generally allowed to do? Were they allowed to preside over ceremonies? Indulge in leisure activities like hunting or touring their domains? Were they just confined to their quarters all day?

In general:

The emperor fulfilled an important ceremonial and cultural function. There were a number of ritual duties that no one else could perform (such as sacrifices to the imperial ancestors) that formed an important part of the state apparatus. Emperors could often be kept busy with ceremony and pageantry. Active emperors often found this inconvenient and reduced their ritual obligations, while weak emperors accrued increasing ritual duties to keep them busy.

Most regents weren't powerful enough to completely do away with the emperor as a formal authority. They still needed him to rubber stamp their commands, at least for major reforms to the government. (Sun Liang was raised to just stamp "yes" on everything his regents gave him. When he investigated past rulings he discovered that Sun Quan always asked questions and demanded explanations from his officials, and this was the start of him becoming inconvenient to the regime.) The government theoretically still needed the emperor's approval to run.

There is a general trend (although not necessarily documented in the Three Kingdoms specifically) of such courts becoming a focus for art and culture. It distracted the emperor and courtiers, it displayed wealth and power, and it let despots paint themselves as patrons of the arts instead of violent thugs. Surely, they hope, a man who promotes scholars and poets must be more than just another greedy warlord.

The emperor had a number of leisure activities, and puppet emperors were buried in them. Banquets, hunts, and festivals could all keep one busy. The emperor also had responsibilities within the harem that would keep him diverted. It is no coincidence that regents were so often the emperor's in-laws.

Some emperors were allowed to retain control over certain court positions, such as the grand physician or some personal attendants. Obviously such individuals would be under the scrutiny of the governing regime.

Now, you could just ignore all of this. That's what Dong Zhuo did. He stormed in, said that the emperor gave him complete authority, and locked him away. That led to an armed rebellion that destroyed the empire.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

What was Huang Zu and Cai Mao's relationship like? As fellow officers of Liu Biao did the two get along? Did they both share a distrust of Liu Bei? Did Huang Zu also dislike Liu Qi?

We know very little about either man as an individual.

Cai Mao was from a wealthy local family in Xiangyang. He spent time in the capital and befriended Cao Cao. When Liu Biao was assigned to Jing, he allied with the Cai family. (It is unclear when he married Cai Mao's sister and whether it was before or after this. I am inclined to say after.)

It isn't entirely clear what position Cai Mao held in Liu Biao's regime; only that he and his family wielded significant influence within the administrative apparatus and were able to arrange the succession in their favor. He does not appear to have been an active military commander (he is never mentioned among any of Liu Biao's generals in the accounts of various battles), nor does he appear to have been a leading governor. We know even less of Huang Zu. He is first mentioned as one of Liu Biao's generals during his defense against Sun Jian in 191, and it was Huang Zu's soldiers who killed Sun Jian in battle. He is next mentioned as the head of Jiangxia - on the frontier against Yuan Shu and eventually the Sun family - and we can presume this promotion came from his success in 191. He seems to have been a fairly effective leader over the territory but was ultimately outclassed by Sun Ce and Zhou Yu.

Huang Zu is not implicated in any of the politics in the central court. He appears to have been a local man (probably from a prominent family) who earned his position and served competently.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

I posted my Yizhan Jun biography and my explanation for the Northern Wei practice on my Wordpress.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Exemplary Women, JS96

When the Three Talents[1] are aptly aligned, the ways of the household flourish and shine; where two kinships in concord bind, the winds of loyalty and valor we find. Lofty in spirit, alone to outshine, the annals of Lu[2] in brilliance entwine; Firm in resolve, as a spire stands alone, the chronicles of Zhou[3] in lushness are sown. Adorned in courage and grace, they were ever gentle and without blemish. Through ages their gaze extends, their legacy woven in more than mere threads.

       Thus did Yu rise at Gui’s conflux,[4] and Xia flourish at Mount Tu.[5] Yousong[6] and Youshen,[7] in their resplendence, laid the foundations of Yin's legacy; while Tai Ren[8] and Tai Si,[9] through their progeny, amplified the ethos of the house of Ji. In the Han dynasty, the matrons Ma[10] and Deng[11] were paragons of thrift and modesty; and in Wei's era, Empresses Xuan[12] and Zhao[13] radiated with dignified grace and virtue. These paragons, in the sanctum of propriety and the pavilion of righteousness, stood transcendent, their luminance distinct from the common weave of womanhood.

Furthermore, the narratives of Gongjiang's[14] unwavering fidelity, Mencius' mother's quest for righteousness,[15] Hua's adept stewardship of Qi [?], and Fan's[16] wise counsel leading Chu to supremacy, the chastisement of Duke Wen upon unsheathing his blade, Zi Fa's modesty in the division of beans, Shaojun's observance of the rites, and Meng Guang's resolute dedication - all epitomize the quintessence of their conduct and their adherence to maternal virtues.

Zizheng[17] earlier curated these chronicles, while Yuankai[18] compiled them later. Together, they enshrined the precepts of feminine comportment, augmenting the corpus of wisdom for the nurturing of women.

Thus, from the Taishi era to the reigns of [Emperors] Gong and An (266-420), those of singular virtue and skill have been chronicled and biographized herein. Among them, there were imperial consorts and those whose deeds were magnified through their spouses or sons. Each has been accorded their own bespoke biography, and thus, they find no place within the current compilation. In various insurrectionary states, where royal decrees were momentarily hindered, the inherent benevolence under Heaven yet stood as a testament to moral exhortation. The deeds of women from these realms, too, have been cataloged and are appended at the end of this article.

[1] "三才" (sān cái, lit. "the Three Talents") is a philosophical term originated from the Book of Changes. It encompasses Heaven (天tiān), Earth (地dì), and Humanity (人rén).

[2] The Spring and Autumn Annals was the official chronicle of the State of Lu. It covers a 241-year period from 722 to 481 BCE.

[3] The Rites of Zhou was a work on bureaucracy and organizational theory. It was listed among the classics of Confucianism.

[4] "媯汭" (guī ruì, lit. “Gui River’s conflux”) refers to the two wives of Yu Shun, E’huang and Nü Ying. Yu Shun lived at Gui River’s confluence, hence he adopted [Guī Ruì] as his clan’s name. (Shuowen Jiezi)

[5] Yu married a woman from the Mount Tu clan. He also convened a tribal alliance at Mount Tu for a campaign against the Miao.

[6] "有娀" (yǒu sōng) was an ancient state in the Chinese mythology. It is notably linked to Di Ku (帝嚳), a sage emperor of ancient China. According to myth, Di Ku had a consort named Jiandi (簡狄) from the Yousong clan. She was the mother of Qi (契), an ancestor of the Shang dynasty. The state of Yousong is also mentioned in the context of the last days of the Xia dynasty. Tang of Shang (商湯), the founder of the Shang dynasty, launched a campaign against the last Xia ruler, Jie (桀). The battle took place at Mingtiao, often associated with the location of Yousong. Tang's victory over Jie led to the fall of the Xia dynasty and the rise of the Shang. It symbolized the dynastic cycle and the Mandate of Heaven in Chinese historiography.

[7] "有㜪" (yǒu shēn) was an ancient state in the Chinese mythology. It is notably linked to the narrative surrounding Tang of Shang and his consort, who was a woman of the Youshen state. She bore Tang sons - Zhongren (仲壬, first ruler of the Shang dynasty) and Waibing (外丙, second ruler).

[8] Tai Ren (太任, c. 12th - 11th century BCE) was the mother of King Wen of Zhou, Ji Chang. Tai Jiang (Chang’s wife), Tai Ren, and Tai Si (Chang’s wife) were collectively known as the "Three Tais." The term "Tai Tai" (太太) has been used as an honorific for married women, signifying virtues and qualities that aspire to match those of the Three Tais.

[9] Tai Si (太姒, c. 12th - 11th century BCE) was the wife of King Wen of Zhou and is revered as a highly respected woman. She was a descendant of Yu and a mother of ten sons, including King Wu of Zhou - founder of the Zhou Dynasty - and his younger brother the Duke of Zhou.

[10] Empress Ma (馬皇后, late 30s - 79), formally Empress Mingde (明德皇后, lit. "The understanding and virtuous empress"), was an empress during the Eastern Han Dynasty from 60 until 75, then empress dowager from that year till her death. Her husband was Emperor Ming of Han. As empress, she was described as humble, solemn, thrifty and well-read. Emperor Ming often consulted her on important matters of state.

[11] Deng Sui (鄧綏, 81 - 121), formally Empress Hexi (和熹皇后, lit. "moderate and pacifying empress"), was an empress of the Eastern Han dynasty through her marriage to Emperor He of Han. She was recognized as a merciful, intelligent leader who guided the dynasty well through a period of natural disaster, famine, court intrigues, economic inflation and military conflicts. She was a staunch opponent of corruption and bribery and a patron of education and arts. She is considered to be one of the Han Dynasty's last effective rulers.

[12] Lady Bian (卞氏, 161 – 230), formally known as Empress Wuxuan, was an empress dowager and later grand empress dowager of the state of Cao Wei. She was the wife of Cao Cao and bore Cao Pi, who ended the Han dynasty and founded Wei in 220.

[13] Lady Zhen (甄氏, 183 - 221), was the first wife of Cao Pi. She was posthumously honored as Empress Wenzhao when her son Cao Rui succeeded Cao Pi as the emperor of Wei.

[14] The term Gongjiang refers to the wife of Viscount Gong of Wei (? - 813 BCE). It later refers to widows who never marry again.

[15] Mencius's mother is often held up as an exemplary female figure in Chinese culture. One of the most famous traditional Chinese idioms is 孟母三遷 (mèngmǔ-sānqiān, lit. "Mencius's mother moves three times"). This saying refers to the legend that Mencius's mother moved houses three times before finding a location that she felt was suitable for the child's upbringing.

[16] Consort Fan (樊姬, died in the 7th century BCE) was the Queen consort of King Zhuang of Chu (reigned 613-591 BCE). She acted as the political adviser of her spouse, and has been portrayed as a positive role model for women. She was noted for her clever methods of demonstrating her opinions and convincing people to change. In one famous story, she felt her husband was hunting too much, so she stopped eating meat, as a subtle reproach to him. He noted her actions, and ceased his inappropriate hunting.

[17] Liu Xiang (77 – 6 BCE), courtesy name Zizheng, was an astronomer, historian and writer of the Western Han dynasty. He compiled the Biographies of Exemplary Women. It includes 125 accounts of exemplary women taken from early Chinese histories. The book served as a standard Confucianist textbook for the moral education of women for 2000 years.

[18] Du Yu (223 – 285), courtesy name Yuankai, was a classicist, general and politician of Cao Wei during the late Three Kingdoms period and early Jin dynasty. He wrote Praise of Women’s Records (女记赞), which has been lost to time.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

The country that produces no heroes is a country no man respects. The age that produces no heroes is an age veiled with darkness. Where there are no heroes, there are no hopes. Those who have lost hope no longer dream. When there are no dreamers, the race of people is in danger of perishing as a whole. The terrain of twentieth-century Korean history is disfigured with failure, despair, and division. The sovereignty of our country was lost at the very beginning of the century, and we were oppressed for thirty-five years. And now, we are divided between North and South. We are living in a dark time. In darkness no flowers bloom, and no trees bear fruit. But heroes are born in difficult times. Like a lonesome flower in the thick woods, heroes will rise in the dark. It is now more than ever that we need heroes. Our nation needs heroes. If we cannot find heroes here and now, then we must invoke heroes from the past so that they will cast a light onto our path and renew our hope.

Yông-kyu Pak defending the novel romance of the three kingdoms in Korea

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

What are you current thoughts in Empress He of Han?

I forget which episode it was but we discussed Empress He in as much detail as we could on one episode of @discourseofthethreekingdoms.

In short, though, I think that we largely have her wrong.

Empress He was not from one of the empire's powerful families. Yet when Empress Song was ousted, she was the one who replaced her. This is usually presented as the eunuch faction installing a candidate of their choosing, and while that's obviously an element of it, it's silly to think they picked Empress He at random from the harem and not that she was an active participant in their plans. It is highly probably that the rumors against Empress Song began with her. Such is the way of harem politics.

When one of her rivals gave birth to son, she had the woman killed. Emperor Ling was furious and it took a great deal of political capital from the eunuchs to keep Empress He in power. Clearly she acted without their approval, which is not what we would see from a mere puppet.

From what details we have of the events after Emperor Ling's death, she played a very active and decisive role in settling her son on the throne and keeping her family in power. He Jin's need to seek her approval to act against the eunuchs was genuine; he couldn't do it without her. This is, again, nonsensical if she was a mere puppet.

Dong Zhuo was probably correct to identify her as one of his main threats in the capital and the court (as opposed to someone like the genuinely weak Yuan Wei).

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Further history of Goguryeo (WS100)

[With the parallel account in LS54]

[WS100]

Gong's great grandson Weigong likewise could see from birth. People considered him to resemble his great grandfather Gong, and for that reason named him as Weigong. In Gaogouli they refer to resembling each other as “Wei”. Weigong likewise was brave and strong, and at ease with bow and horse. In the middle of Wei's Zhengshi [240 – 249], he entered to rob Anping in Liaoxi, and was routed by the Inspector of You province, Muqiu Jian.

His great-great-grandson was Yifuli. Li's son was Zhao. In the time of Emperor Lie [329 – 337], he and the Murong clan attacked and struck each other. 4th Year of Jianguo [341 AD], Murong Yuanzhen led the multitudes to invade them. He entered through the southern pass, fought at Mudi and greatly routed Zhao's army. He exploited the victory for a long advance, and thereupon entered Wandu. Zhao fled and ran away on a single horse. Yuanzhen dug up Zhao's father's tomb, and carried off his corpse, he also carried off his mother and wife, precious treasure, men and women, more than 50 000 people. He burnt his palace houses, destroyed Wandu City, and turned back. Afterwards, Zhao dispatched envoys to come to court. They were hindered and cut off by robbers and foes, and were unable to arrive from [him]. Zhao later was killed by Baiji [Baekje].

In the time of Shizu, Zhao's great-grandson Lian first dispatched an envoy to [the General who] Calms the East to offer a petition to tribute the things of the region, and also to request the state's taboo [characters]. Shizu was delighted with their earnest sincerity. He decreed to send down the imperial lineage's external names and taboos to their state. He dispatched the Outer Staff Cavalier Attendant Gentleman Li Ao to designate Lian Chief Controller of the Various Army Affairs of Liaohai, General who Conquers the East, Acting Central Gentleman Commander who Protects the Eastern Barbarians, State-Founding Duke of Liaodong commandery, and King of Gaogouli.

Ao arrived at his residence at Pingrang [i.e. Pyongyang] City, and inquired into their region's affairs. He stated: South-east of the Liao, more than a thousand li, east until Zha City, south until the Lesser Sea, north until old Fuyu. The population and households has tripled since the time of Former Wei. Their land is 2 000 li from east to west, and more than 1 000 li from north to south. The people have all sprung from the land. They go along with the mountains and valleys, and live there. Fore clothes they use cloth, silk and hides. The native farmland is meagre and poor. Their silk-work and farming are insufficient to provide for themselves, and for that reason their people are modest with food and drink. Their customs are joyful [?], they are fond of singing and dancing. At night, men and women crowd together for entertainment without ranking of the noble and the humble. However when cleaning and purifying they enjoy themselves. Their king is fond of arranging palace buildings. His named officials have the titles of Yeshe, Taishe, Great Brother, and Junior Brother. On their heads they wear twisted style, shaped like a conical cap, and on the sides they insert bird feathers, noble and humble each proportionally. If standing up, they turn back with folded hands. When they kneel to do obeisance, they trail one foot. They travel on foot like they are running. They always use the 10th Month to worship Heaven, and within the state there is a great assembly. At their public gatherings, their clothes and dress area always brocaded and embroidered, with gold and silver as decorations. They are fond of squatting and crouching. When eating they use trays and low tables. They produce a three foot [tall] horse, they state it was originally ridden by Zhumeng, and the horse breed as a result has come down [from it?]. After, tribute was sent soon after each other, annually they delivered 200 jin yellow gold and 400 jin white silver.

At the time Feng Wentong [the final ruler of Northern Yan] led the multitudes to run to them [in 436 AD], Shizu dispatched the Cavalier in Regular Attendance Feng Bo with a decree to Lian ordering him to send off Wentong. Lian sent up a letter claiming he undertook to serve the royal reforms together with Wentong, and in the end did not sent him off. Shizu was furious, and wished to go and chastise him. Hte King of Leping, Pi, and others debated waiting and launch it later. Shizu therefore desisted, and Wentong also soon after was killed by Lian.

Later Empress Dowager Wenming, as Xianzu's Six Palces were not yet made ready, counselled Lian to make him recommend his daughter. Lian offered a petition, stating his daughter was already married, and beseech to use his younger brother's daughter in response to the directive. The imperial court allowed it, and therefore dispatched the King of Anle, Zhen, the Master of Writing, Li Fu, and others to reach the border and send off the gifts.

Lian was tricked by the advise of his left and right, stating that the imperial court formerly had intermarried with the Feng clan, but then not much later wiped out their state. The lessons of Yin were not remote, they ought to just then conveniently decline it. Lian thereupon sent up a letter falsely claiming the girl had died. The imperial court suspected him of concealing trickery, and again dispatched the Provisional Cavalier in Regular Attendance Cheng Jun to sternly call him to account, and if the girl really was dead, attend to select in replacement [someone] gentle of his lineage. Lian stated that if the Son of Heaven forgave his previous errors, he would respectfully undertake to serve the decree. It happened that Xianzu collapsed, and he therefore desisted.

[LS54]

Yiyimo died, his son Weigong was installed. Weigong was brave and strong, at ease with saddles and horses, and good at shooting and hunting. Wei's 2nd Year of Jingchu [238 AD], they dispatched the Grand Tutor, Sima King Xuan [i.e. Sima Yi], to lead the multitudes and chastise Gongsun Yuan. Weigong dispatched the Master of Account and Great Assigner in command of a thousand troops to help the army. 3rd Year of Zhengshi [242 AD], Weigong robbed Xi'an and Jiaping. 5th Year [244 AD], the Insepctor of You province, Muqiu Jian, in command of ten thousand people, set out from Xuantu to chastise Weigong. Weigong in command of 20 000 foot and horse confronted the army, and there was a great battle at Feiliu. Weigong fled in defeat. Jian's army pursued until Xian. They hung up their chariots, bound their horses, and climbed Wandu Mountain. They slaughtered those that were in the capital, the cut off heads and captives numbered more than ten thousand. Weigong only brought along his wife and children to run far away. 6th Year [245 AD], Jian again chastised him. Weigong lightly brought along the various Assigners to run to Woju. Jian sent General Wang Qi to pursue him. He cut across Woju for more than a thousand li, arrived in the southern regions of Sushen, and carved a rock to record his merits. He again reached Wandu Mountain, inscribed the walls of Bunai, and then turned back. After that, they again communicated with the Central Xia.

In the chaos of Jin's Yongjia era [307 – 313], the Xianbei Murong Hui occupied Daji City in Changli, Emperor Yuan conferred on him Inspector of Ping province. The King of Gouli, Yifuli, frequently robbed Liaodong, and Hui was not able to put it in order.

Fuli died, his son Liu was installed in replacement. Emperor Kang's 1st Year of Jianyuan [343 AD], Murong Hui's son Huang led troops to invade him. Liu fought with him, was greatly defeated, and ran and fled on a single horse. Huang exploited the victory to pursue until Wandu, burnt his palace houses, and seized more than 50 000 boys to return home.

Xiaowu's 10th Year of Taiyuan [385 AD], Gouli attacked Liaodong and Xuantu commanderies. Murong Chui of Later Yan dispatched his younger brother Nong to invade Gouli, he restored the two commanderies. Chui died, his son Bao was installed. He used the King of Gouli, An, as Shepherd of Ping province, and ennobled him King of the two states of Liaodong and Daifang. An started to set up the offices of Senior Clerk, Marshal, and Army Advisor, and afterwards roughly had Liaodong commandery.

Arriving at his grandson, Gaolian, he in the middle of Emperor An of Jin's Yixi era [405 – 418], first offered a petition to exchange tribute and duties.

[SuiS081]

Gaoli's ancestor sprung from Fuyu. The King of Fuyu once obtained the daughter of Hebo, and following that had her shut up inside a room. She was followed by the sun's light, which shone on her. She felt it and consequently became pregnant. She gave birth to a large, and there was a boy who broke the shell and came out. His name was Zhumeng. Fuyu's ministers, since Zhumeng had not been born by a person, all requested to kill him. The king did not heed them. Growing up, because he accompanied on hunts, he caught normally a large amount, and they again requested to kill him. His mother reported it to Zhumeng, and Zhumeng abandoned Fuyu and fled south-east. He came to one great river, deep and impossible to cross. Zhumong said:

I am truly the maternal grandson of Hebo, and the son of the son. Now there are difficulties, and pursuing troops are about to catch up. How about getting to cross?

And so fish and turtles piled up and completed a bridge, and Zhumong thereupon crossed. The pursuing riders did not mange to ferry over, and turned back.

Zhumeng established a state which he himself titled Gaogouli, and he used Gao as his clan name. When Zhumeng died, his son Luda inherited. Arriving at his grandson Molai, he raised troops and thereupon annexed Fuyu. Arriving at his descendant Weigong, in the middle of Wei's Zhengshi era [240 – 249], he entered to rob Xi'anping, Guanqiu Jian resisted and routed him. Weigong's great-great-grandson's son was called Emperor Zhaolie. He was routed by the Murong clan, who consequently entered Wandu and burnt his palace houses, took a great amount of plunder, and turned back. Emperor Zhaolie was later killed by Baiji. His great-grandson Lian dispatched envoys to Later Wei.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Pang Tong gave Liu Bei 3 plans to choose from when conquering Yi Province, and we all know Liu chose the 2nd one which succeeded. What do you speculate could have happened had Liu chosen the 1st or 3rd plans instead?

To refresh everyone, SGZ 37.1 contains the story.

When [Liú] Zhāng returned to Chéngdū, Xiānzhǔ was about to for [Liú] Zhāng campaign north into Hànzhōng. Tǒng again advised: “Secretly select elite troops, travel day and night, and directly attack Chéngdū. [Liú] Zhāng is both unskilled in military affairs, and also never prepared. When the main army arrives, with one move things will be settled. This is the best plan. “Yáng Huái and Gāo Pèi are [Liú] Zhāng’s famous Generals, each lead strong troops, defending and occupying Guāntóu, and one hears that they have several times sent letters remonstrating [Liú] Zhāng, urging him to send you General back to Jīngzhōu. Now General before you arrive, send someone to them to report, saying Jīngzhōu has an emergency, and that you wish to rescue it, while simultaneously preparing attire to outwardly look like you will return. These two both respect your great reputation General, and also will be happy that you will leave, and certainly plan to ride with light cavalry to come meet. You General can then seize them, advance and take over their troops, and then head toward Chéngdū. This is the middle plan. “Retreating back to Báidì, joining up with Jīngzhōu, and slowly return to make plans. This is the worst plan. “If you delay and do not go, then you will be in great trouble, and cannot last.” Xiānzhǔ therefore followed the middle plan, beheaded [Yáng] Huái and [Gāo] Pèi, returned to head toward Chéngdū, and all that he passed he conquered.

The first plan is an extremely risky gamble. While it offered a chance for a quick and decisive victory (avoiding the years long war Liu Bei ended up fighting) it could have easily failed. On the other hand, even if it did fail it was a small force and the army would survive its loss.

The second plan is a very pragmatic one, and it ended up working out.

The third plan would essentially mean sacrificing Liu Bei's position in Hanzhong (and within Yi itself) and simply invading from the direction of Jing. It was plausible, and very traditional, but it would render the entire trip to Hanzhong a waste of time and Liu Bei would be operating with no particular advantage. Zhang Fei was able to successfully march from this direction, but the conditions would have been very different if both sides concentrated their full attention in the same place.

[dongzhou3kingdoms]

Indeed. Failure to win means Cao's didn't have control of the narrative of the era, Jin needed to distance themselves a bit to justify their betrayal and people asked why, despite their undoubted and advantages, they didn't win. I think sometimes in the west, we end up having to remind people Cao Cao isn't always quite as brilliant or successful as they think.

This is just a rambling but I was reading the current reddit discussion on Cao Cao. I know most of my three kingdoms expert mutuals on reddit probably seen the comment regarding that Cao Cao is considered a positive example on a westerner's perspective compared to an Confucian perspective.

To be clear, I don't think the comment is entirely accurate. I think Cao Cao is considered a positive example to perhaps a subset of Western perspective and I have seen western people disagree with that comment regarding how all westerner might see Cao Cao especially when perhaps not everyone knows the full picture.

My theory for why someone might say that people of the west see Cao Cao as a positive example is perhaps because of the West's veneration of Julius Caesar. How people's admiration of the great men theory might leads people to view Cao Cao in a more positive example.

Because I think that is what that subset sees in Cao Cao. A man of many talents, mostly a strategic genius able to overcome multiple odds against them. Sure, they had some setbacks against some opponents but they still managed to overcome them or at least maintain a strong position throughout. They had to kill a bunch of people who resist them but that is how the world operates. It was either us or them. Hell, they even showed personal honor or clemency to people who don't really deserve it anyway (at least in their eyes).

And sure to be clear, I am not denying that Cao Cao or Julius Caesar are none of these. They are complicated humans with a complicated legacy with a wide-spectrum of many people who admire them for their success and some people who dislike them for their misdeeds regardless of their success.

It's the image of the great man who doesn't care about what others think, who wins against everyone, and dominates throughout. Never mind that I believe both Cao Cao and Julius Caesar cared deeply about their public image (Caesar being more successful while Cao Cao....uh is complicated) and sometimes won things by pure luck.

Of course, I also think time and perspective played a part in people's changing perspection. Novel backlash is most prominent for Cao Cao, and the values preached in the 14th-century are obviously going to look ridiculous to someone in the 21st who don't understand the many different messages and strange values at the time.

EDIT: Actually there is something that I just remember but it's worth noting that aside from Romance of the Three Kingdom novel being comprised of a bunch of pinghua stories about said figures collected throughout many long years. We are also talking about a 14th century novel likely also maybe trying to capture 220 AD with their own views. I don't know, like I feel like I have yet to see what Chinese people might say about the often mocked wife-cannibalism and Liu Bei throwing Liu Shan. Like to be clear, I think most people do get the Confucian value they profress, and that is what they will likely say about it but I feel like not everyone would view those scenes the same way.

I also should probably mention this earlier but this subset is definitely not exclusive to the west. I would say that most countries have a fascination and admiration with great men and like to compare them with each other. East Asia is no exception especially with recent media being far more likely to portray a positive Cao Cao depiction especially with Koei (Japan) comparing him like their own Oda Nobunaga as the great reformer (also because that is where the market and money is in their home country).

It's also why I think there should be a way to read Eiji Yoshikawa's version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. It's well noted for it's human portrayal of Cao Cao but it's possible that the takeaway there might end up presenting Cao Cao as more clean than the original ROTK or how he actually is in history as well especially with how Koei draws from them.

It's still a huge debate and many conversations to be had over there. Hell, the most comprehensive Japanese wiki for ROTK14 (the game)) had to ban and wipe out a bunch of arguments (only regulating them to a single page) regarding the historical records because people still fight it out perhaps in a similar way as how people over on the DW/Three Kingdoms subreddit or even the older Scholars of Shen Zhou.

It's also worth noting that despite DW completely white-washing Cao Cao, the ROTK games are a bit more hesistant, and still portray Liu Bei and the sworn brothers as their main protagonists accurate to the novel but the white-washing is definitely still there to some extent. It's possible that this is the result of marketing. DW is fine for mostly a Japanese audience with a niche subset of Chinese, Taiwanese, and Western fans while ROTK has to present to a more mainland Chinese audience alongside Japan. It's also possible that fans of ROTK have different views on Liu Bei and Cao Cao compared to Dynasty Warriors but that is mostly speculation.

Anyway, my train of thought stops here..I was going to write a proper conclusion that history is always a struggle of views. Who is to say if the admiration of Cao Cao and the degradation of Liu Bei will continue, or if the struggle between perspective will likely continue forever as the world changes between values and views.